Will Government Regulations Speed Up E-Cat Adoption?

I thought Steven Karels made a very good point on the Journal of Nuclear Physics in response to a question I put to Andrea Rossi there. My question to Rossi was about how long he estimated it would take for a power plant to achieve a return on investment it switched from coal power to E-Cat power.

Rossi did not answer the question, saying that calculation could only be made after the current testing was completed, but Steve Karels responded to me saying:

In my opinion, the conversion to eCat technology for coal-fired electricity production plants will be more driven by the need to upgrade the plants to meet carbon emission reduction requirements. These modifications are estimated to increase electricity costs by between 60% and 80% of current price.

So it is a complex problem and more than a simple cost of fuel saved averaged over so many years. The carbon sequestration technology is not mature and may not be so for another 10 or 20 years. Yet governments and consumers are demanding carbon emission reductions. I think this will be the driving force for LENR insertion into electricity plants.

If this is correct, government regulations putting heavy pressure on power producers to cut carbon emissions could turn out to be a very strong incentive for the power industry to adopt E-Cat technology in large power plants. I would think that would be very welcome news to all of us who rely on the grid for our electricity, as power companies are bound to pass on any increases in production costs in higher bills to energy consumers.

And once consumers realize that technology is available to produce cheap and clean electricity they will most likely put additional pressure on the power producers to switch over to the E-Cat. What possible objections could the power producers have? Of course, as Andrea Rossi says, this is all dependent on a positive outcome from validation testing.

  • MickD

    If you mean that the augmented coal plant will remain forever, the: Carbon restrictions on existing plants will probably be modest at first and then get tougher as technology improves. Eventually as added LENR power capability approaches the coal generator output, companies may shut down the coal plant.

  • Chris I

    Firstly, she’s in error because she often states false facts and I’ve seen paralogism in her arguments.

    Last but not least, I don’t have to prove it. Who cares about her?

  • mickd

    EPAs carbon regulation will have a big effect because small lenr plants added to coal plants will reduce total carbon just enough to meet gradually tougher emissions. Utilities preserve their existing capital investment in coal by adding incremental small lenr augmenting plants to keep up with phased in regulation.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    You two are missing the point. It does NOT MATTER WHAT PIXIE DUST RUNS THE ECAT.. IT MATTERS THAT ROSSI RISKS EXPOSING SAID PIXIE DUST IF A RENAGADE SCIENTIST (LIKE ME) GETS AHOLD OF ONE AND DISSECTS IT.

    This means that Rossi/Cherokee/IH risks their catalyst if they allow off premises validation.

    This means any validation from Rossi will have the same taint on it because of the Premises issue.

    There is a much larger list of people who reject this verification for that reason than accept it.

    NOTE: I am not rejecting it. I accept it as real. I am saying as matter of Factly as possible that Verifications by Third Parties are tainted and less effective if they are done in his lab using his equipment with friends of his conducting the tests. I AM FINE WITH THIS.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    If you agree the Verification Results were tainted by Rossis friendships with the tester, or you also feel the verification was also tainted by having it done in his facility then you are agreeing with me and not Omega Z.

    I had no qualms accepting the results, and found them very impressive, especially the fact that it needed to be switched off and did not go unstable and have the process collapse.

    Omega Z is arguing as if I am criticizing the report, and your notice of Omega Z spelling and Grammar makes me think possibly this person is second Language English and does not understand my view.

    The comments just above from Omega Z are FAR from Pivitol, and if anything are absurd.

    You said yourself having colleagues on the testing panel could be a problem for many people. This is correct. A lot of people DID HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ROSSI HAVING KNOWN some of the TESTERS.

    The verification was very impressive, yet the Pathoskeptics still point to those two facts the most.
    A) The Testing occurred on Rossi property
    B) Some of the Validaters knew Rossi prior to test.

    I have no problem believing the report, but I am not mainstream science or press. I am just an Engineer who likes the Ecat.

    • Omega Z

      FP Apologies.

      I did take your post as an attack on the report.

      Many of those who attack the report are misinformed or just antagonistic trolls.
      The Report could have been impeccable & would still have suffered the same attacks.

      Rossi did now a couple involved in the tests, but that was by way of them having been present at previous tests. Rossi met Levi thru Focardi inviting him to look into the E-cat. They were not life long Friends. Levi was sceptical & ran many tests of his own before taking Rossi serious.

      As for sloppy posts. To many interruptions on my end. A hit & miss proposition. Many of my posts are done over multiple interruptions.
      4 while reading your response & making this post.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Thanks. I was assuming (see last post) we had our wires crossed, as I have written many lengthy posts defending the past verification much more emphatically than you have and with as much information.

        You just said,
        “The Report could have been impeccable & would still have suffered the same attacks.”

        Which was my roundabout point when I said,
        “Rossi won’t let an ecat out of his sight so we know any
        subsequent validations by him will just be open to Parody”

        Rossi admits he has been rejected (based only on rejected science) from obtaining various patents. This means he has no rights to his invention and he cannot allow one to leave his premises. I know I would chop it up and look inside.

        I believe in the ecat but feel they have some heavy challenges if they do not take a more proactive stance at getting LENR verified.

        There are many who are close to his level and BLP may be beyond it, so Rossi may end up losing the idea in this patent race.

        We know for Instance Toyota hired Martin Fleischmann after he was shamed out of the US because mainstream science rejected the Pons/Fleischmann 1989 reveal. We also know Toyota verified Mitsubishi LENR results using their own lab and equipment/supplies. They are just one example of a company that might jump out of woodwork and own all rights to LENR.

        We also can now name 20 or more producers of independent LENR.

        I hope for Rossi, because he did draw attention to it worldwide (Especially Nickel Hydride versions)with his 2011 public demonstrations. Some of his competitors (i.e. Defkalion) would not be in the running had he not done that.

        Rossi/Cherokee/IH should allow several of the more prominent Universities/labs in the world (whom he does not know the validation team) and allow the ecats to be tested under supervision (through a glass wall) of a Rossi aid to prevent tampering. I hope this is what his next verification looks like.

        As you say,
        “The Report could have been impeccable & would still have suffered the same attacks.”
        and I still have hopes Rossi team will win..

  • Omega Z

    They are no smarter then the average population.
    Problem is a portion of them think they are much smarter then the General Population thus running ruff shod over everyone else reeking havoc on society.

    A Compilation of studies says that providing everyone in the World with an education to PhD level would only result in about a 1 point average increase in IQ.

    Thus, Tho Education is important in ones field of study/expertise, It is not a determining Factor in Intelligence level….

    The myth of Education=Intelligence is promoted by the Educational System & the Elite. It adds to their self importance/Prestige in an effort to separate themselves from the masses & increasing their Funding & their portfolio’s. $1 Trillion in Student loan debt…

    An important point. Nothing wrong with Education. It has undeniable benefits.
    It’s just the Education system is Gamed/Abused by a few for personal benefit/gain just like all other well intended Institutions & Systems in Society.

  • GreenWin

    Documentation (screen shots are best) of Weakipedia’s behavior will continue to accumulate, making a irrefutable case against private and public censorship. Eventually, the “editors” of journals, Weakipedia, mass media, etc. will be called to answer for their actions. Even under a national security order, they will have to answer to First Amendment and prior restraint violations. It will make a riveting Supreme Court case, testing the same arguments found in The New York Times v Richard Nixon re the Pentagon Papers (1971.) In that case, MIC whistle blower Daniel Ellsberg provided the NYT a classified DOD report on failures of the Vietnam War.

    “The reasons are very clearly domestic political reasons, not national
    security at all. The reasons for the prolonged secrecy are to conceal
    the fact that so much of the policy making doesn’t bear public
    examination. It’s embarrassing, or even incriminating.”
    Ellsberg and the NYT won the case when the Court ruled public benefit of disclosure out weighed the Administration’s claim to privilege or national security. i.e. The role of a free press as watchdog over government was confirmed at the highest level. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/08/us/08pentagon.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

  • Ophelia Rump

    Three days to this event at Triangle Park. I wonder if Industrial Heat will have anything to say there?
    With Obama’s recent endorsement of Triangle Park, this would go a long way, not exactly Govt Regulation but a start.

    http://www.rtp.org/nc-clean-tech-summit

    NC Clean Tech Summit

    Date

    2/26/2014

    Time

    7:00 AM – 5:00 PM

    Description

    Now home to 200 firms specializing in smart grid, efficient water management, and efficient transportation, North Carolina’s Research Triangle region is emerging as a global leader in clean technology. Recognizing the potential this sector has to promote sustainable economic development across the state of North Carolina, the University of North Carolina Institute for the Environment and Center for Sustainable Enterprise at the UNC Kenan-Flagler Business School, in partnership with the Research Triangle Cleantech Cluster and Strata Solar, are convening this summit to advance the development of the clean technology sector in North Carolina.

    • GreenWin

      It would be great if IH had a newly completed round of positive tests to publish. But it’s too soon and I suspect the disclosure format via ArXiv pre-publish server will remain. IH might want to discuss their current round of funding of E-Cat and plans to retrofit a stranded asset coal/NG power plant for demo purposes.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Ecat already passed a test as close to distancing himself from the Ecat as possible. Rossi won’t let an ecat out of his sight so we know any subsequent validations by him will just be open to Parody and promises of Next Year.

    I’m afraid we will need to get LENR from Jet Energy or Miley.

    • Omega Z

      FP
      No doubt, their are representatives present during the test.
      However, It would be representatives from “IH” watching over the Pixy Dust. Not Rossi.

      Truth- It is absolutely not necessary for anyone to know what the Pixy Dust is composed of in order to determine if the technology is Viable, Or Not.

      If they require this knowledge, Then they are not qualified to be doing the test to begin with.

      Elforsk is already aware of far more then we are.(They have all the Data, Not the snippet we’ve seen.) If this present test over a much longer period validates the previous test, What any of us think is irreverent. It’s not meant to convince Us. Just those who will be developing it further for market.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        You need to educate yourself what happened during his last . Simply having KNOWN some of the testers put the results in a negative view. The other complaints were that because Rossi owned the testing facility some monkey in the rafters was training a high energy laser on it.

        You can say these things do not matter, but nobody took the report or updated report seriously aside from us here.

        The qualifications of the testers were impeccable, and yet the Ecat is still not accepted.

        No.. You clearly missed all the drama surrounding his past verification. It was a circus. Ask anyone here if they think a third party verification will succeed on Rossi premises.

        • Omega Z

          This is actually all a moot point, As Industrial Heat now owns this technology. Further Criticisms are no longer Just about Rossi, But Cherokee/IH & a growing number of individuals. but…

          Ignore what the character assassins said about these people. Over a dozen very respectable experts in multiple disciplines Tested the Hot-Cat, “7” of whom put their name on the report. They have nothing to gain by providing flawed data & everything to lose if they should do so. Neither would Elforsk waste their money hiring unqualified people for such an important test.

          They brought their own equipment. They tested the mains, monitored for wireless energy transfer & every other possibility including ruling out DC voltage. They even used their Own Wire’s from the mains to connect Rossi’s power box.

          The Debunkers mostly parroted the same old claims including the secret voltage thru the ground wire. Proof they didn’t even study the report. If they had, they would have known that the Ground was unconnected laying on the bench. At least 1 of those debunkers is feeding at the Hot Fusion money train. It is his livelihood & career. You could question if his expert opinion is unbiased? He has much to lose if the E-cat works.

          This test was convincing enough to bring about 2 things. 1. A longer term test financed by Elforsk. 2. Convinced Darden to replicate the E-cat with his own people from scratch using only Rossi’s instructions & brought in an Outside Expert to audit the test for verification.

          In Effect, A 3rd party “Independent” Replication & verification of Rossi’s E-cat has taken place. This 3rd party Cherokee/IH then Purchased Rossi’s Technology & it’s secret sauce. They have been in full possession of the E-cat for more then 10 months & continue forward. They have been in contact with People involved in a Research Park in China. Questioning the Rossi Effect is sooo Last Year. Pun intended.

          The on going tests is just additional Data for Industrial Heat.
          We now face New Questions as to whether this is a viable product. Dependability, Reliability, Safety issues & Can it be Economically Harnessed. The reality of Effect itself is no longer of question.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            I am not arguing against Rossi or LENR.

            Some of us here have been following since 2011 or before and when Rossi released a very nice Third Party Verification it was Ripped to shreds by critics (krivits (pun) arguing the test was void because it occurred on property he owned.

            People Won’t even believe NASA is invested and I have heard Zawodnt/Bushnell called renegade scientists on their own agenda and dime, but we know Nasa has invested and Bushnell/Zawodny are still employed.

            So I will say again…
            “You need to educate yourself what happened during his last . Simply
            having KNOWN some of the testers put the results in a negative view.
            The other complaints were that because Rossi owned the testing facility
            some monkey in the rafters was training a high energy laser on it.

            You can say these things do not matter, but nobody took the report or updated report seriously aside from us here.”

            There were all kinds of criticisms and none of them will be rested by having colleague scientists or verification on their premises. Any here who disagree are not familiar with the controversy surrounding his last verification.

            You can claim all the skepticism was debunked, but if that were true It would be Front Page of Nature Magazine (Praised Peer Reviewed Magazine, if it gets published there it is accepted as fact).

            I accept it as true. You accepted it as true. Now we need to convince Mainstream Science.

            You say,
            “Over a dozen very respectable experts in multiple disciplines Tested the
            Hot-Cat, “7” of whom put their name on the report. They have nothing to
            gain by providing flawed data & everything to lose if they should
            do so.”

            I will say you are preaching to the choir. I have never argued against that report, and just your tone in speaking of it implies you do not grasp the reports overall ineffectiveness, nor what I have said of it.

            Anybody with a hint of sense will realize no Third Party Verification by Rossi/Cherokee/IH will be accepted if it occurs on their premises, or if they have friends sitting on the verification team. There is too much fraud accusations in these instances.