New Poll on the ‘Cherokee Effect’


I just added a new poll (see bottom left sidebar) about how the latest confirmation of the involvement of Cherokee Industrial Partners / Industrial Heat with Andrea Rossi has affected people’s attitudes about the validity of the E-Cat.

It’s not always easy to gauge public sentiment, but just from watching traffic to this site, and the observing nature of comments here and in other places, it seems to me that there is a growing sense of confidence in Andrea Rossi’s claims about the E-Cat since the Industrial Heat press release was published.

Cherokee Investment Partners, while not a well-known company to most people, seems to have a good reputation in the circles in which it operates, and has managed billions of dollars of investment dollars over the years in environmental causes.Cherokee CEO Tom Darden is well connected, serving on the Board of Governors of RTI International, the non-profit organization that directs the affairs of the world-renowned Research Triangle Park in North Carolina, a hub of technological innovation where many large corporations have R&D facilities.

So what has been your reaction to the news? Is the ‘Cherokee effect’ an important factor in the credibility of Andrea Rossi and his invention? Cast your vote, and feel free to comment about it below.




  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    It is my opinion it is mistake to think Cherokee IH is the new owner, there is a much larger partner involved. It is also a mistake to think that Rossi has sold his entire Financial interest in his IP

  • Billy Jackson

    I am not saying it doesn’t sandy. just that we need to be careful and read what they say and not what we want them to say or “think” they are saying

  • Private Citizen

    How about a poll on the “BLP Effect?” Get you salivating over megawatts per liter of water, then conduct a closed-garden demo of sporadic ignitions of an $80 million re-purposed arc welder.

    • Daniel Maris

      LOL I think I know which way that poll would go.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Same except perhaps not WILDLY and the dates for me were 14 Jan 2011, 7 April 2011 and 23 Oct 2011.

  • AB

    I’m sorry to hear this. He died too young.

  • jousterusa

    I thought it was great news, but when it relocated the manufacturing and the jobs to China, I was deeply disappointed. There exists the potential in the E-Cat’s commercialization for hundreds of thousands of new jobs related to assembly, distribution and installation of the E-Cat, not to mention the manufacturing of parts for it. It is a multi-billion-dollar loss, I believe. Given its potential, it may be a severe IP loss as well to private industry, the military, to agriculture (and desalinization), and to charitable relief operations around the globe. Naive and feckless leadership has left us bereft of a major boon that might have definitively ended the Great Recession.

    • disqus_wIzH7iPYfH

      The inventor and much R&D was italian. To think this is somehow should be in the US manufacturing sector is highly arrogant.

      • Private Citizen

        Pons and Fleschman invented the first Ecat

  • Kevmo

    I posted this pro-Rossi development on my favorite political website. It’s been 2 years since I posted a “Rossi says” article there, and this isn’t necessarily a “Rossi says” article but a “someone else says about Rossi” article.

    Some of the comments were about “how could Rossi sell his technology for $11M, that’s way too little for something supposedly worth $trillions”, that kind of thing. The press release itself was pretty vague on the issue. But it looks like Cherokee is real and they’d really have to be deluded not to have done their due diligence.

    Several recent indicators would suggest that LENR is moving forward towards production on at least 3 fronts: Brullion, Rossi, and NANOR. I think the Blacklight Power demo was rushed in order to try to pull some of the wind from Rossi’s sails.

    • AB

      That’s just a misunderstanding (possibly a spin by pathoskeptics).

      > Vaughn did not disclose financial terms of the deal with Rossi, but
      Industrial Heat stated in a U.S. securities filing last fall that it had
      already raised $11.6 million from investors.

      http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2014/01/24/onfirmed-raleighs-cherokee-buys-into.html

    • kdk

      I think Blacklight has had a working product for a while. It’s been a matter of when the cartels were ready to release it, mostly… i.e. only when cold fusion was ready… this ties into the fact that Blacklight is most likely reverse-engineered stuff and probably fits into zero-point better than cold fusion, IMHO. Check out the stuff on Brigadier General Stephen Lovekin in the Sirius Disclosure project… and note the founding date of the company ENSER that did a validation of Blacklight’s tech, and the fact that Mr. Mills worked at the labs at Wright-Patterson AFB… Free-energy has been denied to the unwashed masses for a long time. In fact, the general state of science is one designed to support and enforce the monies of the cartels that be.

      In a nutshell, I agree.

  • http://magicmusicandmore.com/ Barry

    off topic, Last day at MIT. Exciting things have happened. To much to relate. I’ll be putting together a video next week. A few tidbits, the new NANORS work efficiently at one watt. Last year a certain NANOR produced 80 times the input for 30 minutes. The new series of NANORs, series 8, that can be ordered by anyone, are much more efficient. Mitchell Swartz will not only sell you one but he will share how they are made. He said he wants to test them 20 times or so to make sure his new, much higher findings are consistently true. I tried to get the new COP out of him without success.
    I’m waiting on a video that I asked to see again, of the Sterling engine running off a Phusor (earlier NANOR) from 2004. Electricity ran to the Phusor, Phusor boosted to 300% to create heat that powered the engine. It is like watching an invention from Edison. MS tried to patent it but the patent office refuse all things “Cold Fusion.” It will probably go down in history as the first Sterling engine married to a Cold Fusion device.

    • Mr. Moho

      Interesting! MFMP should get a NANOR one ASAP. One watt, whether of input or output power (I guess output), is sizable enough to be easy to measure and verify without the need for expensive equipment, if the efficiency is 10x or more.

      • LENR G

        How can they not be commercializing this? Did he say what his plans are?

        • http://magicmusicandmore.com/ Barry

          Jet Energy opened a new branch company called “Nanortech” that will produce and sell NANORs. The production is slow so it’s not like buying them off a shelf at Home Depot. There is a sign-up. Pricing will be announced, supposedly in Feb.

          • LENR G

            Thanks. Seems like a huge development if true. At the very least it would give every lab and skeptic on the planet something they could test very easily.

            Color me confused as to why they are selling novelty items instead of teaming with industrial giants and power companies who could turn such a device into a trillion dollar enterprise. I guess I’ll wait for more information to see what’s really going on here.

            • http://magicmusicandmore.com/ Barry

              Wouldn’t exactly call them novelty items. I’m also glad they aren’t selling to industrial giants. Mitchell Swartz has more of a CF collective mindset and seems to be taking the “proof of concept” approach.

            • Daniel Maris

              Presumably it is a device that isn’t easily scalable.

      • Mr. Moho

        (replying to moderated message)

        @Barry: so this actually means 1W input and anything between 10-15W+ output and more?
        This is beyond any expectation I was holding! It could already be a commercial product, at this scale!

        • http://magicmusicandmore.com/ Barry

          That’s right, when the input went up to 1.5W the COP went down. The output is far beyound any of the other Phusor/ NANORS COP that Mitchell Swartz wants more test to make sure they are true. My guess is well beyound 10COP, but that’s my own speculation going by how excited Dr Swartz was about it.
          Wouldn’t it be great to go back to the experiment of Cold Fusion with the NANORS, give them out to colleges and say, “After 25 years it’s time to try again.”

    • Daniel Maris

      I like the Phusor linked to the Stirling Engine – that’s much more convincing. Why don’t they do that with all the devices?

    • Sanjeev

      Good job Barry, thanks a lot. can’t wait for the vid.
      Is that 1W on input side or you mean it produces a net 1W of output?

      • http://magicmusicandmore.com/ Barry

        Input Sanjeev. The Sterling engine, that they ran in 2004 needed much more than the low wattage that Jet does a lot of their experimenting with. The 2012 CF device at MIT had to be safe enough to leave in an Peter Hagelstein’s office for four months. People quite often mistake this as the only wattage the NANOR uses. I saw another video where Mitchel Swartz powered a small toy (about 8″ long) car with a CF device. I’ll bet it was the first Cold Fusion powered car ever made. I can just see these devices in the museum of science 50 into our present century.

        • Sanjeev

          That’s great. It means an output of 10-80W, should be easy to confirm.
          To reveal the method of making them is as good as open sourcing the tech. This is a very important development, I guess you should write a guest post along with the vid.

        • Ronzonni

          Where can we see that video of the car, please? Thank you.

  • AB

    In other words, when you have eliminated all other possibilities, whatever remains must be the truth. At this point it does seem extremely unlikely that Industrial Heat would go along with Rossi grossly misrepresenting their relationship. Still it is prudent to wait for the peer reviewed report. I expect that to be a turning point.

  • BroKeeper

    Lex Luthor said, “there’s only one thing that they’re not making more of– and that’s land. So if you want capital gains, invest in land and property”. :)

  • Billy Jackson

    my problem with that statement sandy is that Industrial Heat didnt say that.. rossi said that. I see where you can think that and honestly thats what i want to see too. but we have to be careful to read whats said and not so much what is applied between the lines. Outside of Investment and the initial tests they didnt say much more than bare minimum when it comes to involvement.

    I see it as rossi had a convincing test for them. they were convinced something was there and put money down. we dont know how much. if this technology is legit rossi could have been an over night billionaire selling it to one of the big firms.. since they didnt confirm anything themselves beyond yes we are taking over, and yes we are invested in the project.. we have to be careful not to imply things they didnt say because we want them to say it.

  • Billy Jackson

    i would say im still 95/5 for Rossi. As for the “Cherokee Effect” im not sure. i think im viewing it as more of a confirmation from someone close to Rossi that at least has a reputation to worry about. I mean no slight against the folks from Cherokee. but i dont know them. ive never heard of them till now. like Kirk said earlier this would have been better news if it had been a GE, Siemens or Carrier type support. Cherokee is not a house hold name so there will be a bit of mystery and guess work from those that dont know them.

    Still following, still hoping, Waiting for the next batch of tests. but also prepared for disappointment and slightly guarding against it being a scam. this seems to be a huge nail in the coffin for it being a scam. unfortunately we are still in wait to see mode.

  • Donk970

    I think it’s in our nature as humans to want to dismiss things that don’t fit into our mental model of the world. We, by nature, want to create religion to provide a framework for our existence. We even tend to turn science into religion where we dismiss new facts that don’t fit the existing framework. Science is fundamentally an observation driven pursuit and when done right goes against our basic instinct to reject what doesn’t fit. It’s not at all surprising that the observation of anomalous heat has been rejected for so long. Fortunately there are always a few people who have a need to challenge the religious orthodoxy and have continued to pursue cold fusion despite all the hostility and roadblocks that were thrown in their path.

  • C. Kirk

    The “Cherokee Effect” pushed me past any lingering doubts about Dr. Rossi having something ….very possibly of huge importance , of course it means little until a succesful commercial product is on the market ….. I was anticipating a GE, Siemens or Carrier ……however when you look at the connections of Tom Darden…… there will be a huge amount of resources available depending on the outcome of the tests…… I had a financial advisor look into the possibility of investing but all current funds are closed at the current time with the money already raised now being allocated …. I don’t believe there is a separate fund just covering industrial heat … but all their projects Cherokee may be looking for more investors in 6 months I’ve been following this amazing story since March 2011 as an open minded (somewhat) optimist The involvement of the great Italian experimental nuclear scientist Sergio Focardi was the main reason I remained optimistic

  • Andre Blum

    My end goal here is seeing free energy come true. Not showing that I am right.

    • atanguy

      Andre: “free energy” Sadly, I don’t think that what we are going to get when investors are in the picture…

      • Andre Blum

        maybe not free as in beer. maybe free as in speech.

  • georgehants

    As academic and main-line science are completely out of the loop, I think it is up to people like us with scientic morals and competence to decide if Mr. Rossi should be promoted to Professor.
    We will still have to wait I think for the report but then if positive the promotion should take effect.

  • BroKeeper

    What I have humbly learned from all this is science/scientists can never have a final say. I think there should be a mandatory course in the science and philosophy colleges called “The God Factor”. Unless one can observe and confirm the infinitely small and its effect on the infinitely large then one can never make a final determination of things.
    What Rossi (and perhaps others) has accomplished more than creating a new energy source is confound the established scientific paradigm view of the atom and its effect on the universe. It is certain theoretical analysis will have to adapt an open ended conclusion. Scientists need to shed its pride and humble themselves enough to realize they are not yet Gods of the universe but little gods with ever changing knowledge. “I say, ‘You are gods;”…

  • friendlyprogrammer

    or a car/boat/plane/blimp that can travel without need for refueling for a few years.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Lol. Literally though. Andrea Rossi was a world class athlete and Jr World running champion. He was the fastest kid in the world. I just thought the skinny kid with glasses scenario was funny since the above is true,

  • Peter

    (mostly joking) Now will Apple or Google buy them (Cherokee) so they can have more control over the home?
    I’ve always been quite confident in Rossi. Not 100% convinced, but hopeful and optimistic. Now that his partner has gone public, I have to admit I am more convinced than ever. Not just in Rossi, but in LENR in general. More and more companies are coming out of the woodwork. More and more scientist are stepping up and saying something is there. The blogs are filling up with more details, so it’s natural to think that each one, Rossi included, will want to drop small little infos for people to glean onto. Excitement is rising and the public is becoming more engaged. That’s a good thing. I just hope they (IH, Def, BL, etc) are all right and all succeed.
    Competition is good and the more there are, the healthier the economy will be.

    • Donk970

      I think that once the first working power plant that anyone can visit and see for themselves comes online all doubt will be removed and there will be a veritable tsunami of cold fusion progress by many many people. It is my firm belief that once doubt has been removed and the whole world knows that it can be done the transition will happen very very fast.

  • Daniel Maris

    I think the IH development was the most significant since the Arvix report. I’m looking forward to when IH create a professional website that will tell us a lot more about the E Cat.

  • Nixter

    I have learned to take everything that Dr. Rossi says very literally, yesterday for the first time he said that the “E-Cat is an energy generator ( Thermal and electric).” All previous descriptions were that the E-Cat generated heat only, it is possible that he means that he is now generating electricity directly from the E-Cat. Someone should ask the Dr. to clarify this point.

    From his Blog;

    Andrea Rossi
    January 30th, 2014 at 8:57 AM
    Carloluna:
    E-Cat is an energy generator ( Thermal and electric).
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • ecatworld

      Thanks, Nixter — I’d noticed this, too. I’ll ask him,

      • Nixter

        He replied,..”Power production is a core target.” Not exactly a definitive answer, that is probably all is is allowed to say about it right now, since he didn’t deny getting power directly either, I’d say it is possible.

  • Enrique Ferreyra

    At this point, the only thing that could interest me or make change my expectations is a real working product in the market, im tired of the useless talk about true/scam.

  • Bento

    Only the preformance of the E-Cat, the level of COP still worries me, is it going to signifintly high enough?

  • Andre Blum

    To be absolutely honest, I have to say the Cherokee / industrial heat news didn’t excite me as much as apparently it did others.

    On the one hand it is good to see that Rossi found venture capital. On the other hand, it is fair to say that this is nothing more than expected. I feel that at any point in the last three years, Rossi’s story was good enough to be able to attract some kind of investor. Any story with a good potential/risk ratio deserves some sum of money. Potential for this invention has always been sky high, so as long as the risk is not infinite, it should be worth somewhat. Now that the risk has decreased over time (with the certification and validation reports, etc.), the willingness of investors should have increased. Just up to Rossi to pick the right time/money point.

    Rossi decided to jump the Cherokee wagon, and I am fine with that. They look like a good partner. However, deep inside, I had hope that he had partnered with a much larger organization. I am not really impressed with the sum involved, and not impressed that Rossi had to give up the rights to his invention entirely for that deal. His comments about warships, infinite resources, lab environments, partner expertise, etc. led me to believe something much bigger was going on and I don’t really see how they match with this deal. So slight bummer there for me.

    My confidence in validity of the e-cat has been really high, and still is, but maybe just the tiniest bit lower than before.

    • Freethinker

      Cherokee and IH is what is exposed. I think there are bigger players yet behind the curtain, not for us to see. The volontary exposure was likely due to damage control as the connection Rossi – Cherokee was revealed.

      Cannot for the life of me see how the Cherokee-Rossi link can make his device to be less likely to be valid.

    • LENR G

      Yeah I agree the size of Cherokee was a bit of a let down, but you don’t mention that Industrial Heat asserted that they verified the performance of the E-Cat with their own personnel and own independent expert.

      If you take this at face value then it should increase your belief in the E-Cat’s validity. Another player, this one with money involved says, yup works as advertised.

      • Andre Blum

        My confidence level in the validity of the e-cat is a sum of two parts:

        - level of confidence in the “facts” (or what comes close to that)
        - level of confidence that Rossi’s words have some amount of truth in them and will pan out in the future

        pre-Cherokee, I had hope that Rossi would continue to live up to things he had hinted on. Just like he “surprised” us with really having the certification he had talked about for quite a while, and with really showing the validation he had talked about for a long time, I had hope he was really partnering with a well known, large organization with huge resources both in terms of money and otherwise (labs, security, secrecy, expertise, connections, influence).

        • LENR G

          Eye of the beholder I guess. I personally thought that the fact that there really was a partner and that it matched up with the things he said about them (save for some battleship hyperbole maybe) was a real confidence-booster in general Rossi-says.

          His stuff about robotized factories is still mystifying to me. It’d be nice to get some clarity or verification from Industrial Heat on that. Was he working on factory design/robots before Cherokee became involved? Do they actually have a factory of magnificence now or just plans for one?

          • Andreas Moraitis

            A while ago Rossi said that Siemens helped them to put up the robotized production facility. Maybe Siemens just delivered the machines and gave Rossi’s team some instructions for use. I had hoped that there was a closer connection, nevertheless.

          • US_Citizen71

            Exactly what is a robot? Isn’t a computer controlled lathe essentially a robot? You have to balance semantics, English being Rossi’s 2nd language and the Italian trait to embellish when speaking when you evaluate a Rossi says.

            • Pekka Janhunen

              I think that by robotic factory Rossi means an automated assembly line, in contrast to making the devices manually and one by one in a workshop. The word “robot” has different meanings in different contexts. For example, space agencies call flying any unmanned spacecraft “robotic exploration of the solar system” even if the spacecraft in question doesn’t necessarily have any moving parts.

            • LENR G

              Yeah normal factory-type robots. I wasn’t trying to imply otherwise.

    • US_Citizen71

      With Industrial Heat being an LLC it is very difficult to tell who is involved and how big their organizations are. Often large corporations will create an LLC to invest in another LLC that invests in a third just to stay hidden and be insulated against any negative effects such as bad press. Google, Apple, Microsoft and Carnegie Mellon Bank all could be investors in Industrial Heat without you knowing it using this methodology. Judging the power, influence and depth of potential support capital of an LLC can be difficult.

  • david55

    Comment from inventor of ” H-cat ”

    Justin Church

    I was looking for updates to the BLP demonstration and was pleasantly
    surprised to see you guys chattering about our work with catalytic
    combustion of hho aka oxyhydrogen gas. You seem to have a pretty good
    grasp on the process. Yes we are sending raw hho, no flame into a
    standard catalytic converter of a car and seem to be obtaining a
    substantial amount of heat. A lot more heat than using an hho flame
    pointed at a piece of metal. We have found many similarities in this
    process and the so called “E-Cat” device. The heat effect works on the
    same principle. If you study cold fusion or LENR you will understand
    they are loading hydrogen into a catalyst metal structure inside the
    core of a reactor and obtaining an excess heat effect as the hydrogen
    fuses into the metal lattice to release helium or fuse with the atomic
    structure of the metal to trans mutate it to another, in Rossi’s case,
    Nickel is claimed to transmutate to Copper which releases the excess
    thermal energy. Blacklight Power also use HHO plasma in their reactor
    and the plasma bursts create electrical energy instead of heat. It is
    very possible people like Andrea Rossi used a catalytic converter in the
    beginning stages of the research to get to the point he is now. I am
    working on sealing up and insulating the cat over the course of the next
    week or two to get some baseline numbers for everyone. For the most
    part people have been very positive and excited but we are seeing a lot
    of “We Want Measurements” from the community as well. Most of these
    people are what I call the “Peanut Gallery” and have never built
    anything their-self. They don’t care about the engineering of the device
    and the usefulness of it unless they are spoon fed numbers. It is a
    very simple process to test out. Buy or build a small hho generator,
    inject gas into a catalytic converter, watch it heat up. The information
    has been out for almost a month now and there have been only about 3 or
    4 of us that have actually experimented with it. We are looking for
    others to join in, we can not do it alone. I am working just as hard as
    I can to get the cat ready to go up against a standard resistive heater
    of the same wattage but I have to finalize the design. If we get it
    right, we can easily build a highly efficent forced air heater or boiler
    using off the shelf parts. We don’t have to wait for Rossi or others in
    the Cold Fusion arena to put the technology on the market. Garage
    Engineers are much better at taking the technology and putting it to use
    than some of the Corporate boys that haven’t made it out of the lab yet
    and their reactors are sitting in the corner with more probes on it
    than a hospital patient. We want to make sure everyone around the globe
    has the opportunity to explore the same phenomena that most of us can
    only read about.”

    • LENR G

      You might want to reach out to the MFMP open science guys to see if there’s any possible synergy there. If you have a device (design) you think works, they would be an excellent independent tester for it.

      They are careful (especially with energy measurements) and have earned the trust of most of us here.

      Good luck.

      • Fortyniner

        That seems like a good idea.

        However the process seems so simple that they could verify it for themselves at relatively small cost. To keep the experiment ‘clean’ it would probably be necessary to open up a catalytic converter and either cut or break up the foam ceramic core into pieces that could be re-housed in a pyrex tube with gas connections at each end. The energy used to electrolyse water into ‘Brown’s gas’ should be easy to measure, and the gas could be fed into the tube in measured amounts, while it is submerged in a water calorimeter.

        Anyway, I echo LENR G’s good wishes – keep us posted!

    • mecatfish

      Is there a place where I can follow your work? I want to experiment too. I am a test engineer with a degree in chemistry. Overunity is not a goose I want to chase. If I can build a space heater that uses less energy than this electric money gobbling hog of a space heater to keep my biological money gobbling hog (wife) warm….I am all for it.

    • Bob Greenyer

      We are currently putting together a high-end calorimeter set up to finally settle the Pout/Pin debate surrounding Celani’s technology this first half 2014.

      We could adjust the system following this experiment to take a known volume of HHO (from which we can know the maximum chemical energy potential) and a catalytic convertor segment as proposed and supplied by you and perform a critical test that would place some metrics on the experiments you are exploring.

    • bitplayer

      Replacement catalytic converters cost about $200

      http://www.californialegalconverters.com/store/index.php?route=product/search&keyword=36014&makevalue=AMC&modelvalue=EAGLE,%20SX4&yearvalue=1988&enginevalue=4.2L

      HydroOxygen generators cost about $200

      http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/261260872293?lpid=82

      Garage lab explosion insurance – haven’t priced that yet…

    • NT

      Now this is “impressive”, when a handy tinkerer can put together off shelf parts in his garage and apparently produce the “Rossi Effect” the CAT is now really out of the bag for everyone…

  • AB

    My confidence has increased, and after the Levi paper is was already pretty high. The position that the e-cat cannot be real is becoming increasingly irrational, at least when taking all information into account. If the upcoming peer reviewed paper describes an e-cat being tested outside of Rossi’s influence, then it will remove any and all doubts, because a widespread conspiracy would then be the only way to explain the situation.

  • LENR G

    Increased. But I was already pretty convinced by the ELFORSK validation.

    If the upcoming ~6 month March (?) validations are positive then that should convince all reasonable open-minded folks who take the time to educate themselves.

    I believe there’s ZERO chance that Cherokee would participate in a scam given their history and pedigree. I also believe that there is very little chance that they could have been fooled *since April of 2013* despite daily contact with Rossi and his E-Cats and not one but two long term validations in progess. Just about the only way this could go south right now is if Industrial Heat has determined Rossi is scamming them and are just waiting for the reports to go final to bury him once and for all. I don’t know why they would issue a press release in that scenario nor why Rossi would stick around… but whatever. Throwing a bone to the skeptics.

    • Fortyniner

      They don’t need any new bones – they dig up their own ancient ones all the time.

  • Gerard McEk

    To me it seems that Rossi is quite being keyed by his competitors. Also this step has triggered new announcements of them, like the BLP press release, the interview with Defkalion’s CEO and the interview with McKubre.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    I’m in the cult.

  • NT

    I believe Rossi has nearly finished goods and always has had a remarkable device and showings. As with most inventors, he may have been a little to optimistic in the beginning, but since the impressive scientific report last spring and with the sale of his IP contract has now pulled well out in front of the pack of fellow LENR developers and now seems to be on his way to a marketable product within the next year or two, probably first in the Chinese market because of the latest industrial developments with Cherokee and IH. At least that is how it appears to me at this moment in time…

  • miles

    It’s not over until the fat cat sings lol. I’m more confident now then say 2 months ago. I’ll be 100% confident with a final product maybe in 2014. Fingers crossed.