Rossi on the Evolution of the E-Cat and the Theory


I thought this was an interesting comment from Andrea Rossi regarding his work. When someone asked him whether he could see light at the end of the tunnel he responded:

‘The evolution is permanent both for what concerns the device and the theory. The tunnel of research never ends, when you see the light out of the tunnel it is an illusion, a reflection of your present knowledge, but the absolute knowledge is always behind the artificial sun. That’s why you better make epochè of any given “knowledge”’

I don’t know if this is a new way of Rossi to be thinking, but in the past Rossi has said that they have a very good idea regarding the theoretical basis behind the operation of the E-Cat. Now he seems to be implying that in reality there is so much that is unknown, that a final understanding cannot be claimed.

Always the philosopher, Rossi throws out a word that I had to look up: epochè. The term seems to be used in the context of Pyrrhonism, a Greek skeptical philosophical approach in which (according to Wikipedia) epochè means: “Without actually claiming that we do not know anything, Pyrrhonism argues that the preferred attitude to be adopted is epoché, i.e., the suspension of judgment or the withholding of assent.”

So the journey of research and discovery continues, and I expect that anything conclusion that Rossi provides regarding his theory will need to be considered provisional. The exciting part of all this is that it sounds like there is going to be continuous development and improvement of the E-Cat, and who knows where that will lead us to.




  • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

    epoché is cleary something our patho-skeptics (and some believers) don’t know .

    I think also it is a problem of our time, not being able to admit our, if not ignorance (never real ignorance in fact), but insufficien data to clonclude at 100%.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Maybe Rossi should study Hydrinos :) hehehe

  • kdk

    … but, but but, there aren’t any gamma rays (or petrodollars and that’s just not fair)!!!

    • Andreas Moraitis

      That’s not true, gamma rays have been measured inside the E-Cat, or at least EM emissions in the low gamma range. You could call them X-rays as well, dependent on the probable source (either nuclear or something else).

      • GreenWin

        Yes. In fact, Robert Duncan confirmed their anomalous heat experiments found soft X-ray/UV emissions just as Mills has documented for years now. Hence the name BlackLight Power.

        • Alan DeAngelis

          Could the x-rays be due to beta decay bremsstrahlung ?
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Someone put this question on JoNP a while ago, and as far as I remember Rossi considered it to be “smart”.

            • Pekka Janhunen

              It sounds a natural idea. The question is which is the charged particle that is braked down. If it’s an electron, where could it come from, since beta- requires neutron-rich nuclei and they don’t seem to be around. If it’s a positron, one should be able to observe the 511 keV line, as Levi did try to observe. If it’s a proton or alpha, it should every once in a while also hit a nucleus and cause some radioactivity. Maybe it’s indeed an electron as you suggest, but one which is not produced afresh by a nucleus but an ambient electron which somehow picks up energy of a nuclear transition by some coherent interaction…

              • Andreas Moraitis

                There is still the concept of “virtual neutrons”, which are thought to be hydrogen atoms where the electron orbits temporarily closer to the proton, so that it “shields” the proton somehow. If such a modified hydrogen atom would penetrate into a nucleus, the electron would be ejected with high energy. The same could work with hydrinos. By the way, I would like to know if muonic hydrogen reacts with nickel nuclei. If yes, there would be a good chance that hydrinos (if they exist at all) could do it as well.

                • Andreas Moraitis

                  As far as I know, Mills denies the involvement of nuclear reactions, but the reasons are obvious: If hydrinos could cause transmutations, they were potentially hazardous. It seems to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to seal a reactor in a way that the tiny hydrinos wouldn’t get into the environment. Even if Mills’s explanation of the excess energy is true, nuclear side effects might be possible, I guess.

                • kdk

                  Yes, I had wondered about something like this too (along lines of W-L):
                  “A bunch of electrons repulsing each other out with the weak force, but with one of those electrons getting close enough to the proton for the strong force to be effecting it (the idea being that the closer the electron and proton get, the stronger the strong force gets once it starts to kick in, like two magnets and holding the two magnets apart just on the verge of actually touching). So, the collective electrons would be like the hands holding the two magnets from touching (and bringing them that close in the first place).”

                  Crazy though it sounds (and this is enough crazy for the formally educated), the whole alien thing (for which there is also tons of evidence, although there is disinfo/crazy to sift through [check out sirius disclosures military whistle-blowers for the most convincing]) points to there being much, much more to the the physical universe than what ‘science’ (which in its current form simply seems to amount to pathological skepticism based on dogma) is capable of describing in its current state.

                  Rossi claimed on the ecat site that W-L does well at describing the sorts of transmutations that take place in these reactions, but is missing the whole picture. I think Mills’ hydrinos may describe a portion of it too, but just how they meet or what the higher order explanation is is unknown to us (probably I guess, at least outside of the black-budget). This might tie into “Alchemy” to whatever degree there may be something to it (I am not informed at all about Alchemical claims), as hydrinos would seem to have greater chemical implications as well.

                  My guess is that there’s a lot more to the wave-particle duality than we currently understand. To what degree an “ether” would overlap with dark matter theories and zero-point energy would be an interesting study.

              • Alan DeAngelis

                Maybe it’s the beta decay of cobalt-61 to nickel-61.

                H(1) + Ni(64) > Co(61) + He(4) 0.663 MeV

                Co(61) > Ni(61) + e-

                • Andreas Moraitis

                  Proposed have been also the reactions

                  62Ni + n → 63Ni* → 63Cu + β- + γ + ν ̅
                  64Ni + n → 65Ni* → 65Cu + β- + γ + ν ̅

                  where n is the „ultra low momentum“ neutron after Widom-Larsen (created by inverse beta decay). However, since 63Ni has a half-life of about 100 years, only the second reaction (half-life of 65Ni = 2.52h) would be effective.

        • friendlyprogrammer

          From earlier on BLP notes. It almost seems like Mills was where Rossi is 10 years ago in SOME respects.

          • Fortyniner

            Mills may be doing it the ‘hard way’ by painstakingly assembling his theoretical grounds and incrementally improving his apparatus as a result of this work. Rossi’s more hands on approach probably led to a ‘serendipitous’ discovery that made ‘hot cats’ possible, most likely when he began experimenting with light metal hydrides as a source of hydrogen in his reactors. Bit of a tortoise and hare thing, perhaps.

  • GreenWin

    Dr. Rossi brings philosophy to the party. It is a philosophy missing from orthodox science. That is, essentially we can never rest assured “We know how it works.” If we’ve learned anything from QM it is that the very act of observation, i.e. our conscious focus, can change how matter reacts. As our application of consciousness changes, then so too may phenomena around us. A whole new theory of causality. Weird? Yes. But we have Frank Wilczek, Nobel laureate in physics working on “time crystals” today, which science acknowledges move uncomfortably like perpetual motion.

    Perpetual motion? A founding brick of skepticism? Say it ain’t so!! https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20130425-perpetual-motion-test-could-amend-theory-of-time/

    • georgehants

      GreenWin I like your new accent on ECN and you clearly have fun poking the vegetables.
      I think the Quantum rules, ha.
      Even scientists may one day discover that Fact, it has only been known for a hundred years, so must not rush them.

      • GreenWin

        George, I considered a pseudonym but that endorses the Mary Yugo/Frank/Al/Max etc etc ploy. There is an unfortunate acceptance of racial prejudice in the skeptopath clan – and being a civil rights supporter, I decided to mirror it for them. They might even get the message!

        • georgehants

          Paul started so well and for some unfathomable reason began to turn inside-out.
          Thank goodness our Admin has kept to the straight and narrow. (so far) ha.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Paul’s newest text is in some sense feasible, but he starts it with “Rossi continues to surprise” which doesn’t really resonate. If there was any surprise, it was that Daniel Maris (and whoever else might have been with him I don’t recall) deduced the right company by sheer intuition. I am sure of only few things, but one is that I would never have been able to accomplish such feat.

            • georgehants

              I am surprised at you using the word “intuition” and apologise if you are using it metaphorically.
              Intuition along with telepathy, remote viewing, precognition etc. etc. are some of the Wonderful scientifically proven senses that we all posses beyond the obvious one’s.
              If most of science ever manages to move beyond eigteenth and nineteenth century reductionism and open it’s eyes to the Research and Evidence provided by their very capable colleagues working in these areas, then science may actualy start to catch up to the 21st. century.

    • Fortyniner

      By coincidence I was grabbing an hour or so’s Sunday relaxation looking into the ideas of Robert Lanza when I read your post.

      http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/

      Now you give me Wilczek – something else to make my brain hurt.

      • GreenWin

        It’s all kind of fun eh? Lanza, Wilczek, Sheldrake, even Penrose and Hameroff (ORC, orchestrated objective reduction) – mainstream scientists, are poking holes in the cathedral of orthodoxy. In a kind of glorious symmetry we have the LENR wildcatters inventing “impossible” power sources. It does make the game more interesting!

    • Pekka Janhunen

      In the rotating 100 ion ring experiment, if one of the ions differs from others, I would guess that the system radiatives electromagnetic waves at low power. That removes energy from the system so it cannot go on forever. Maybe it causes the special ion to transition to the same state as the others ones. Another thing is how one can verify that the system is indeed moving perpetually except by using electromagnetic waves – but then the system is not isolated since it exchanges energy with its environment.

      • GreenWin

        Good questions Alan. As for measuring, experimenters might consider using EPR entangled pairs. This would provide a margin of isolation without adding local EM energy. Then again EPR suggests all systems are “open.” Which might explain how asymmetric “time” appears energetic.

  • clovis ray

    hi, guys, we have the most thoughtful commenters, thanks for all your thoughts, now please let me add a few of my own, i think alone the lines as fortyniner, with this exception, first off it would not suprise me in the least that IH, and cherokee and there measly 12 million, in which if i were rossi i would not even consider. for such a grand device. is just a shell co. to cover for a much larger co, it is not an uncommon thing for a co. to acquire a small co to hide, for the present time their involvement, and i will say again Dr. Rossi is a very intelligent man, IH is just a cover co. to draw fire, so he can work in peace, and he is not going to give away any clues to his ip, he wants to get as much out of his device as possible before someone reverse engineer it . good sence again,
    He knows just exactly what to do and how to precede forward, and i personally believe he knows better than anyone how that must be done. and it is a new field and of course there is many thing left to discover, and who better to uncover them,
    and i also think the war has already began, we must , man up , and fight the good fight, if we want to save our world, and set the new world on a good course, for the benefit of our children/ grand babies.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Thanks clovis ray. On this cold day you’ve reminded me of another cold January day in 1961. (10:00 mark)
      http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/BqXIEM9F4024ntFl7SVAjA.aspx

      • clovis ray

        that speech is as relevant today as back then. Did you know that the quote, it is not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country, was not the president own words, but a quote from Kahlil gibran, it true.
        but gibran had always said that anyone could use his words anytime , a very generous thing in itself. thank you very much i love that speech.

        • Alan DeAngelis

          Yeah, I heard it may even have been Cicero.

    • georgehants

      I think we could all agree that there is no possible overall downside to
      the rapid introduction of Cold Fusion into every aspect of life.
      We can all therefore easily judge who is helping and who is delaying the process.
      Be it capitalists, greens, politicians, governments, media, oil, hot fusion etc. etc. etc.
      It
      is even possible that with a little help, a few scientists maybe able
      to judge if their academics, establishments, premier comics or
      individual scientists are trying to help or debunk and delay the
      introduction.
      We can sit back and observe those who care for the World and those who only care for themselves.
      Let the action begin and let the open judgement begin

  • BroKeeper

    In paraphrasing what Rossi is saying, “the perfect ECAT will never appear”. However the nominal usefulness of the ECAT is
    near at hand for a perfect need. The future of the ECAT is extremely bright as it continues to progress into more efficient uses: smaller, more powerful, safer, resilient, cheaper, etc. In other words “evolving”. IMO usefulness with need always trumps theory.
    Thank you Andrea Rossi.

  • Freethinker

    Managing our expectations a bit perhaps?

    Don’t make to much of it.

    He is simply stating what should go for any true scientist. You are never done. All you can do is to freeze what you know and communicate that. You cannot make a final judgement. “We have now concluded this based on what we so far observed”.

    What that communication will entail, well… Like Pekka writes below, maybe it is a
    clear picture of What, not so much on the How. Maybe there will be some
    attempt, some conjecture, some ideas for future studies.

    Whatever is the case, it will be a milestone by that road leading to the horizon.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    CF looks like a phenomenon which has many specific and complex requirements, and as such it is probably difficult to model. It’s like a genus of elusive and rare animals living in small ecological niches. Even if someone invents a way to understand it at large, the details and classification of different variants might remain obscure for a long time.

    • georgehants

      Pekka, is that not just what science is all about, open-mindedly finding the answers.
      Is that not exactly the challenge that many young people enter the profession for.
      Do you think that the main-stream will state regarding Cold Fusion, we do not know, we must put every effort into discovering the Truth without distraction.
      Do you think they will start trying to be scientists and follow the Evidence or as usual continue to deny and debunk, as in so many other areas.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        I don’t know. It’s impossible to think that science would not study a phenomenon which has enormous practical importance to society and all. It’s also impossible to think that elder scientists would confess at large that they were wrong for 25 years. Perhaps a new generation will come who will study it mainly experimentally and who will get enough funding to have first-class laboratories and tools for their effort. The challenge for youngsters is, though, that CF is a complex phenomenon so experience would be valuable in studying it.

        • malkom700

          At some point it will be necessary to decide on the use regardless of whether we know how it works or not. Man long used fire without her knowledge. Necessity to decide on matters is the main mission of policy ( Obama ).

          • Pekka Janhunen

            Agreed.

          • clovis ray

            very nicely put,

        • clovis ray

          yep. i agree, young scientist, like the quantum hear group, they are your point exactly.

  • Gerard McEk

    I would have been very surprised if Rossi would have had the theory that explains LENR as such. Rossi is not a physicist nor a theorist, but more a ‘Edisonist’ a pragmatist and a trial and error engineer with probably a good mind and a colossal determination. He may have some thoughts on how what ignites the spark in LENR, but how it theoretically works, nobody knows that yet.

    • LENR G

      Maybe, maybe not.

      Keep in mind that Rossi has had years now to make observations, analyze data and put all the pieces together. He now also has a full team behind him, most likely including capable theorists, and I’m sure there has been an honest effort to understand the physics. That would be important for control and patent reasons alone so would be a high priority even in a commercialization effort.

      He has said that they have a good handle on what’s happening but, perhaps a reflection of his modesty, doesn’t claim that they know everything about it yet. Many if his assertions have later proven to be true, so if I had to bet I’d say that Rossi and company have at least the basics of the underlying reaction mechanisms nailed down.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Probably, because in all likelihood they have studied the ash, they know what happens, i.e. which (net) nuclear transformations are the source of the energy. How it happens is another question about which they might or might not have some clue. In any case, compared to outsiders who know nothing at the moment it’s probably huge progress.

        • Omega Z

          We should also add that He had Focardi by his side to help with the Theory.

  • georgehants

    As Pekka mentioned on another page we are witnessing the observations of a True scientist.
    Not the head in the sand, closed-minded, Dogma hugging norm that inhabits most of the scientific enviroment.
    One can only live and Hope.

  • Fortyniner

    My impression is that this is Rossi’s colourful way of saying that his research is throwing up more questions than answers – even if they have been able to pin down one particular thread they are probably aware that it is just a part of a much larger, and previously unsuspected, weave.

    He seems to be saying that (as Admin suggests) there is a whole vast new world to be explored out there. Hopefully the research estabishment will receive this message at some point – although it’s likely to require a far-reaching cull within the upper echelons. I look forward to seeing an accelerating wave of ‘early retirements’ quite soon.

    • georgehants

      Morning Peter, you missed all the excitement, I think I am convinced now.
      It should all be quite interesting to watch the falling of ivory towers, ego’s, reputations, etc. etc.
      There is going to be some amazing spin produced by many people.
      Will Cold Fusion win, only time will tell as always.

      • Fortyniner

        Of course, the rats on this particular sinking ship will fight their inevitable demise using any and all means available, and it may be some time before the last of them sink under the water. The dishonesty of pop science rags and wikipedia, and the shrill noises from Hody and the other web trolls may only be the beginning, now that many threatened interests know that the fight is on for real.

        Their survival depends on using disinfo, half truth, feigned scorn and outright slander to convince everyone concerned that alternative energy is a pipe dream and the proponants are hucksters. The IPCC managed something similar with massive support from politicians and certain industries so (as I recall saying a very long time ago) the degree of delay they can bring about will depend on to what degree threatened interests (including many politicians) can get their act together and divert some real money into the pot. We certainly shouldn’t expect everything to go ‘our’ way from this point on.

        • GreenWin

          Morning gents. In my estimation we’ll see both your scenarios in play. However, the difference between CF and AGW is CF/Rossi have proved there is a real phenomenon happening. And already from Elforsk-Levy, we have a device. At some point a genset will be added, along with control elements – making E-Cat a full hands on package.

          If indeed the IH team is connected to China and other manufacturers, that package will be cloned. And like the micro-CHP systems appearing lately (NRG Beacon 10, Nirvana) they will be installed in residences, abandoned asset power plants, light industry. Rossi commented on crop drying applications. Then the picture changes dramatically.

          With a functioning device in a commercial application, we have the Model A scenario. Every time a Model A drives past the horse and buggy – the inevitable expands. And observers worldwide will see it. The point is LENR is no longer gated by the orthodoxy of “science.” It is entering the market via at least McKubre’s four players. Maybe more. VC investors are rabid to get “IN” on the ground floor of the next thing. I am rather sure the IH announcement and their publication of the Elforsk-Levi Report, will tickle the VCs noses. As AlainCo pointed out recently – it’s war. Or more likely, hard ball with the big boys.