Rossi: Turbines not yet Hooked to Hot Cat


I asked Andrea Rossi a question on the Journal of Nuclear Physics today about progress his team has made as far as electricity production. Yesterday he had mentioned that he had not much experience with turbines, which made me curious:

January 11th, 2014 at 11:08 AM
Dear Andrea,

I hope all is going well with the R&D and long-term testing.
Have you done any testing of the hot cat with turbines to generate electricity?
Best wishes,

Frank Acland

—————–

January 11th, 2014 at 1:36 PM
Frank Acland:
Not yet. We are continuing our R&D and validation work and we will pass to the coupling with turbines when we will have consolidated positive results at the end of this R&D and validation stage. Remember that the results could also be negative.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

It’s somewhat surprising that with the performance that Rossi has reported from the hot cat that they haven’t yet tried to use its heat to generate electricity, but it sounds like they are wanting to fully examine the long-term stability of their reactors before they move on to the next stage. I imagine there will be a considerable amount of engineering involved in designing a system to fit the hot cats to a turbine, so even if the hot cat passes its test with flying colors, it could be some time before Rossi and Co. will be able to start generating electricity.


  • LCD

    The fact that he keeps saying the results could also be negative is really disturbing. Is he saying that this whole thing could be a waste of time or that variant might not work? Just weird.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      If they were really negative Rossi would not be posting, period.

  • GreenWin

    It needs to be regularly emphasized. The generation of electricity from a new hydrogen reaction has, and continues to demand rigorous honesty in the form of “Informed Consent.” Unless, or until this basic human right is addressed, the demand for human acquiescence is flawed. Abide one’s own scripture?

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Heat to electricity, Rossi does not have to know anything about Turbines

  • Jonnyb

    I wonder how they are achieving self sustain mode, I would of thought a power feedback loop from a turbine?

    • Fortyniner

      According to rossi, the hybrid e-cat he is working on self-sustains for 75% of the operating cycle, and needs powering from an external source at a modest level for the remaining 25%. I don’t think we have any information on the duration of the complete cycle. He has not yet used the output power to drive any kind of generator, so self-looping is not yet possible.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        How about this for a 2 reactor system (mouse and e-cat): I wonder if he could use the mouse in 25/75 self-sustaining mode also. Then if one could time the moments the mouse needs to drive the e-cat in non-sustaining mode (25% of the time) and visa verse, you would only ever need electricity for every start-up. After that it would be self sustaining like your 4 reactor idea.

        Another idea would be the take say three mouse cats, each on a little bit bigger and install them in serial mode. Assuming mouses having a COP of 6, you could start with say 10 watt electrical => 60 watt thermal output for the first mouse, 60 watt thermal input => 360 watt thermal output for the second mouse, 360 watt thermal input => 2160 watt thermal output for the third mouse. So you only need 10 watt electrical energy to generate 2160 watt thermal energy. That could be enough to drive a full hot-cat. Now apart from the very simplistic example, this just can’t be right. What mistake am I making here?

        • Fortyniner

          The idea of ‘Daisy chaining’ in this way has come up on several occasions, and maybe Rossi used the concept in his ‘cat and mouse’ arrangment. I’m sure that even now, his team will only be at the beginning of exploring all possible configurations.

    • georgehants

      GreenWin I have replied to your answer to me on previous page (bringing Cold Fusion forward )would appreciate your thoughts sometime.
      Best

  • Sandy

    A low-temperature E-Cat could be connected to this turbine (invented by Ridgway Banks) and that combination could produce enough electricity to charge an electric automobile overnight.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKmYqUSDch8&list=PL2TlR2kH5KZ6ozRQrf0-kMlRhNpqCkNAd

  • Fortyniner

    Probably. We’ll find out when they’ve got something even better – perhaps in a decade or so.

  • bachcole

    There is a perfect laboratory to compare the socialistic ideal with the capitalist model. The Korean peninsula. The culture on the Korean peninsula is the most closely to uniform as any on Earth. But North Korea followed the socialist ideal and South Korea followed the capitalist modal with all of it’s faults. Neither is perfect or even close to it.

    All those who prefer to live in North Korea rather than South Korea please raise your hands. <> I rest my case.

    • Pedro

      Same experiment has been done in east and west germany… Same outcome.

    • georgehants

      bachcole, your argument is like saying their is only nuclear fission or coal for energy production and we must make our choice.
      Well now you have to open your mind like Mr. Rossi and others to find a new way, that includes all the advantages of the old but none of the drawbacks.
      Why are you so stuck in thinking that says, what we have is all there is, No, we can always move on and improve things if we have the desire to do so.

      • bachcole

        georgehants, you are exactly right, but the change in thought comes first, then the change in political/social structure. See if you can convince the vast majority of people even in the USA if they would like to adopt your ideas.

        • georgehants

          bachcole, seemingly unlike you I will try.
          According to your thinking Mr. Rossi should have given up before he started because change is impossible.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Your assumption North Korea is a socialist state is wrong. It is a dictatorship: “Although the DPRK officially describes itself as a Juche Korean-style socialist republic[11] and elections are held, it is widely considered a dictatorship that has been described as totalitarian and Stalinist[20][2][21] with an elaborate cult of personality around the Kim family, which in 2013 were constitutionally enshrined as the country’s hereditary rulers.”
      No sane person would want to live in North Korea.

      I wonder however what this has got to do with the ongoing discussions? Did I miss something?

      • bachcole

        But this situation that you describe so well in North Korea is always how these overly idealistic experiments end up.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Just re-read the whole discussion but I still don’t see where your example is relevant to.

          It isn’t important anyway, so I will let it rest as will I do myself in an hour or so. Good night, good morning, good afternoon or good evening wherever you are!

          • GreenWin

            The immortal words from the Truman Show.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        OK Zed, how bout Cuba?

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          I could give an answer, but I still don’t know why this discussion.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Socialism is not about “power to the people”, it’s about “controlling people”. Controlling what they can buy, what they can sell, and what they can say on this site.

        • Chris I

          That depends on whether you’re talking about Socialism, or about Socialism.

          “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” LOL

    • Chris I

      I’ll repeat a question already asked.

      What’s this got to do with hooking hot cats up to turbines for thermoelectric generation? I mean, even in the thread about Proia who mentioned China and Korea, it would still be out of place.

    • Iggy Dalrymple
      • GreenWin

        Iggy, humans should be free to choose. Light, or dark. For some, living in a cave may seem a better choice.

        • bachcole

          I don’t mind the dark. I don’t even mind so much living in a cave. My problem with North Korea is some Stalinist jerk beating on me and forcing me to worship Kim ill Dung.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          That’s true, and why they like treebark salad totally escapes me, but they should be free to choose.

    • Donk970

      Think of a country like China or North Korea as being a big single corporation with a big monopoly on everything. The government is the executive team and board of directors. A corporation wants to maximize the profits for the owners so it does what it can to minimize expenses. Feeding and housing people and paying them for work is an expense so, of course, being essentially a big corporation these countries do as little as possible. If Walmart ran the United States we’d look just like North Korea.

      Of course the big advantage a mega-corp like China or North Korea has is that if something like LENR looks like it could give them a competitive advantage in the world market they can pursue it without anyone getting in their way. That’s why any big energy revolution will start in a place like China. Probably not North Korea since the CEO is completely nuts but who knows.

  • BroKeeper

    Yes, that is one of the inherent weaknesses of the E-Cat, at least a year ago. Cooling appears to disrupt maintaining a sustainable reaction within. I’m sure this has been the number one issue the team has been developing since. But like you indicted “proof is in the pudding”. I’m hoping it will be delivered with whip cream and a cherry on top.

  • BroKeeper

    Maybe. Eventually. Another potential phase of development from the unexpected strong magnetic byproduct. Good point.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I wonder if they’ve tried controlling the temperature by reducing the pressure of the hydrogen gas in the reactor as it heats up. They probably have.

    • Fortyniner

      Somewhere in the annals, someone mentioned hydrogen pressure modulation. I think it may have been DGT.

      • Marc Ellenbroek

        Would be nice if that is also possible. However, controlling pressure without a flow and in a closed pipe is not easy. Especially not with Hydrogen. You will need some kind of pressure release and you can’t do that to the environment.

        • Fortyniner

          That’s especially the case if a hydride compound is still being used to provide H2 (as it must have been in the crudely sealed hot cat prototypes). I suppose that venting hydrogen might be acceptable if it just passed into a second, larger chamber, and/or was immediately oxidised by some kind of catalysed reaction.

          The venting could take place to an evacuated chamber via a solenoid valve or breakable seal, in which case H2 pressure might be suddenly and drastically reduced.

          • Ivone

            Hydrogen is perfectly safe to release to an open space. It drifts up into the upper atmosphere where it leaks into space.

            • Fortyniner

              So it may be, but the elfin safety people probably wouldn’t see it that way, especially since it would be at about 1,000C as it emerged under high pressure – easily hot enough to spontaneously ignite! There’s also the chance that vented gas might carry out nickel nanoparticles with it – not too good to breathe.

              • Ivone

                If the hydrogen is at 1000C and carrying nickel particles, then I agree with the elfin safety people. Best kept trapped.

                • Ivone

                  I retract the former statement.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Yeah, because it’s a nuclear reaction hardly any hydrogen is needed. It would be safer than doing a chemical hydrogenation and there’s equipment for that.
            http://www.scimed.co.uk/parr-pressure-vessels/

            • Alan DeAngelis

              PS Hydrogenation of vegetable oils has been carried out on an industrial scale since the 1920s. Tons of hydrogen are used. With a nuclear reaction picograms are consumed (next to nothing).
              http://www.bantransfats.com/abouttransfat.html

        • kdk

          They’ve used lasers to do cooling of Bose-Einstein condensates now.

          http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/11/28/3900284.htm

          Bursting laser-cooling at them occasionally or some sort of EM counter-modulation (de-excitation) might be possible too.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Thanks Fortyniner. Yeah, I think there would be fewer hydrogen gas molecules (H2) bouncing around in the chamber to impart their energy to the nickel-hydride bond (like hitting a tuning fork with a hammer).

    • Donk970

      In the context of a pressurized water jacket for steam generation just changing the rate at which water is introduced to the boiler should do a good job of modulating the working temperature. What’s more important is to have a way to quickly SCRAM the reactor in an emergency.

  • bachcole

    Bob, Christina brings God into the social aspect of this forum, NOT anything else. Rossi doesn’t. I am just defending Christina’s right to bring God into the social aspect of this forum. That is a huge way from anything that you are talking about.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I can’t imagine anyone having a problem with the social aspect of it. A blessing from someone is a lovely gesture and for me isn’t the problem at all. But a seemingly innocent phrase like “for God would want us to” is. I cannot literally go to God and ask him if he really would want that. So it’s best not to use arguments based on that.

      If you cannot see that, maybe it’s best to agree to disagree.

      • bachcole

        I see that. I just skip over that sort of thing since it is meaningless and I skip over a lot of things.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          That’s fine then Roger, but you may have noticed that you cannot really expect the same from the others who may not find that meaningless. Anyway, it’s always good to exchange points of view.

  • bachcole

    I’m busted. I am really a troll working for hot-fusionists trying to undermine Rossi and his credibility. (:->)

    Actually, when those conversations that you are referring to took place, I was probably rolling my glazing eyes and skipping over comments that go way too far into technical detail to maintain my interests.

    I still think that there may be issues of the temperature range within which the reaction can occur.

  • Fortyniner

    I agree that there was a lot wrong with early test methods, that made the results questionable to one degree or another. However these early public tests were performed at a time when Rossi needed to attract interest and support despite the technology being in its infancy, and the situation is now very different.

    It shouldn’t need saying yet again that at this stage, Rossi no longer needs to prove his devices to you or anyone else outside his circle of R&D associates and potential investors. Nevertheless he has subjected his devices to two rounds of completely independent tests, and we will learn the results of the second round soon.

    Who knows – they may even have incorporated something like the air gap system you propose, this time. I personally hope that this is the case, simply because of the opening that radiative measurements provide for skeptics to cast doubt on the measuring methods. Perhaps it would be wise to reserve judgment until we learn more about the experimental design and results.

  • Fortyniner

    Spacecraft reaction engines have to use ceramic bearings and lubricants such as graphite, so that they can function at almost any temperature. As power sources spacecraft normally use fuel cells, which must be kept warm in order to function, and this means that they are normally in continuous operation. The same would probably apply to e-cats used in space, although as well as being heavily insulated, these would probably generate electricity by means of thermoelectric converters which would only draw off heat at a limited rate.

    However to make steam, a coolant (water or some other liquid) has to pass over the reactor skin in order to remove large amounts of heat, and it seems possible that this could cool the reactor below the point where the reaction occurs. Its just a question of degree – how much heat you are removing. It is possible that Rossi still has problems in this area.

  • Marc Ellenbroek

    The main difficulty with e-cat in relation to steam production for a generator is, that the E-cat is temperature controlled. The control of the LENR process directly depends on the heat input. That makes the E-cat not very suitable to connect it directly to a steam turbine. A hybrid system could be considered to overcome varying load situations (especially during start-up). Possibly the Brillouin and Defkalion designs are more suitable.

    • bachcole

      I believe that this could be the problem. If I leave wooden matches in my freezer, and then try to light one, will they light? I assume so. But what if they would only light between the temperatures of 85 degrees F and 55 degrees F. Above 85 degrees F they burst into flames spontaneously. And below 55 degrees F they won’t light. They wouldn’t be very practical. No matches would ever be sold in Tucson or Minneapolis. If the E-Cat gets too hot, it runs away. And if it gets too cold, it shuts down. What about that? So many people are getting impatient with Rossi, but what if this is the problem. If so, he has proven that we have a fantastic new energy source but he can’t commercialize it, at least not yet, because of the engineering difficulties.

      • Tom59

        This is when more exhaustive fundamental work would need to come in – to stepwise expand the workable range of operation, tailor the system for specific needs. I hope this day is not too far away (after the second independent testing report?)

      • georgehants

        “…He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken
        up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is
        to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He
        lives and labors and hopes.”

        Nikola Tesla

  • bachcole

    My left brain illustration: Think of the Hawaiian volcano dripping red hot lava into the Pacific Ocean. You’ve seen those pictures. Which one wins, the Pacific Ocean or the lava? If the E-Cat drops below a certain temperature, it MIGHT not have enough heat to continue the process. Remember that the E-Cat needs an electrical input to get started. My thought assumes that the electricity is used primarily or at least partially to generate heat. This, of course, is my semi-educated speculation. (:->)

  • Mr. Moho

    Interesting. It might be worth keeping an eye on this.
    Also, in a further update:

    http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/politics&id=9387529
    Obama to visit North Carolina State University for event on economy

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Former Sec of Energy, Gov Bill Richardson, spoke tonight on FoxNews about the need for distributed power generation.

    • BroKeeper

      The attack will come as distributed E-Cats terrorizing McScrooge.

  • bachcole

    Remember that just because a Hot-Cat can glow in a brightly lit room does not mean that it can withstand being submerged in a lot of cold water, which would rob it of heat.

  • Tom59

    Let Rossi and his Partners stick with the heat generating e-cat as core competence and only product – to get that right is more then enough of a challenge. Let experts in energy conversion handle electricity generation, propulsion etc.

    • Fortyniner

      The performance of any device is dependent on the conditions it is required to work under. If the e-cat is required to boil water for instance, it will need to work even while being actively cooled. As the rate of cooling is likely to be critical, then as a minimum a complete boiler unit c/w reactors would need to be developed. It’s also likely that different cores and boilers will need to be developed for various applications, and all these various configurations will need to be designed and tested as complete assemblies at source, i.e. Rossi’s R&D facility.

      • GreenWin

        This is why I think it interesting to consider using E-Cat heat to drive the hot side of a Stirling engine. Especially a piston-less engine like NASA’s thermo-acoustic engine that needs only heat and electronics to shape its standing wave. These engines are very new and scaled down to 3-4kWe size – but look promising for an small appliance type CHP system.

        My feeling is that Kamen has built a Stirling for his Beacon 10 system and it may be that before trying to build a multi-megawatt Ecat + boiler + turbine — a simple E-Cat plus Stirling may require far less temperature control.

  • Allan Shura

    From what I understand Rossi has diverted attention from the domestic e-cat. The suggestion is he is focusing
    on refitting existing electrical power generation boilers. Interestingly many boilers used in large industrial plants
    are not used for electrical generation but rather to simply provide steam for processes. As for the turbine fitting
    Frank, yes for an integrated generating unit. With retrofitting there is no complication at all. The heat needs
    be applied to or set into the center of the existing boiler in power plants replacing the conventional fuel fireball.
    In power plants the existing superheated steam tubes are already attached to the generators.

  • blanco69

    Why does he continually tell us that results could be negative? If you thought the results were negative then why continue at all. We’ve never seen an ecat with a cop of less than 3 so why would anyone suspect that this generation of ecats would suddenly become endothermic? I know that Rossi has been keen in the past to distance himself from the 3rd party testing by continually highlighting the prospect of a negative result. But what about his own work? I don’t believe that he doesn’t know after all this time. It would be a huge slap in the face for Levi et all if the results were negative. Let’s face it a negative result just ain’t going to happen.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I think he has to distance himself in any way possible from the third party reports. So he keeps mentioning that any outcome is possible since he himself has no control at all over the third party test.
      It’s just politics because I also believe the only outcome is positive. I mean, the guy is working in the kilowatt to megawatt range. It really shouldn’t’ be difficult to test his devices for input / output energy gain.

      • ecatworld

        He made similar statements before the publication of the Levi report last year.

        • Omega Z

          Keep the competition Guessing???

    • roseland67

      Maybe because he hasn’t figured out how to scale or control the “reaction” yet.
      The consistant hedging here is cause for concern.

    • Allan Shura

      Possibly this type of wording could be legal public relations jargon such as the statement I can neither confirm nor deny.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    It seems that they want to fix the design and operating parametres before starting to work with turbines. It has to be done either E-cat first or turbine first. Maybe the E-cat first strategy is good if the goal is large-scale production so that the one-time cost of tailoring the design of the turbine is irrelevant.

    • Fortyniner

      Agreed – it wouldn’t make much sense to design a boiler and turbine around a reactor type that hadn’t been fully optimised for output and stability. Of course it is also possible that cooling the current best reactor design causes problems that are yet to be resolved.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        I agree also. In an environment where the reactors have to drive a turbine, they will be stressed continually to deliver the requested power all the time under varying thermal conditions. You really have to have a reactor that is 100% controllable under those stressful situations, otherwise you could get runaway, meltdown or shutdown issues. It’s almost certain that an e-cat reactor powering a turbine is in reality a collection of e-cat reactors bundled to one big reactor, each e-cat potentially adding to the total output but also potentially influencing each other. Knowing that temperature is one way to control the reaction, in a steam driven turbine environment, temperature of a single e-cat may be very difficult to control so the e-cat reactor should be developed to be totally controllable under every stress situation before you can attempt to drive a turbine with it.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          Are our current generators throttled up and down, or are they on or off?
          I think the nukes are constant power, with gas turbines kicking in for high demand.

          • Fortyniner

            Thermal output from fission reactors is fine-tuned using ‘control rods’ containing boron salts that absorb neutrons. These are driven in and out of the core by electric motors responding to control systems. Only a narrow range of operation is possible though, so in effect the pile is either running at nominal output or shut down, as you say. More or less the same applies to all steam-cycle generators, and load matching is carried out within the grid by standby generators as suggested by wikipedia.

            From what we (think we) know, the relatively slow responses of e-cat generators may mean that they will only be suitable for base load operation, which in turn implies that some kind of grid incorporating storage systems and standby capacity will need to be maintained. Even if distributed systems become the norm, interconnectors will need to be kept in place to cope with load variations.

        • Fortyniner

          “a collection of e-cat reactors bundled to one big reactor”

          That seems to be the only likely design solution, given both the cyclic operation and the pverall power outputs that are required. I would guess that asome kind of ‘thermal flywheel’ will also be needed to prevent local over-cooling or over-heating. The simplest engineering solution would be to embed all the cores in a block of metal which also contains bores for coolant heating or evaporation. As the reactors seem to need running at relatively high temperatures, a 2-stage system using liquid metal, liquid salts or similar, flowing to a heat exchanger for water boiling, would seem to be a likely option. The primary coolant could then also provide the thermal mass needed for stability.

    • Omega Z

      Agreed, I posted before, A need to Design the E-cat as much as possible to fit existing Turbine technology & coupling.
      Then if needed, Adapt the Turbine to the E-cat.

  • Christina

    May it be as God wills it for God would want us to succeed even more than we do as He told us to care for the hungry, the sick, the hurting.

    • Veblin

      I completely agree that we should care for the hungry, the sick, the hurting. The rest is just bla bla bla to me.

      • Fortyniner

        I would also be happier if we could keep religion out of this discussion.

        • Veblin

          A man I agree with.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Me too. I believe Christina to be a very lovable and sweet soul, however the constant mentioning of religion is grating for an atheist such as myself. I don’t have a problem with being blessed by a good wish from Christina, but as soon as it is mentioned that something is Gods will, I have to disagree. My problem is that religion is something you *believe* in, but it’s not made up of *facts*. Therefore it cannot be used as an argument in a discussion.

          Now anyone may believe whatever is comfortable for him or her, but it’s best to keep your religious believes to yourself and not use it as an argument. So anyone may bless me and I wish them the same (to me that’s just wishing the other party well), but please refrain from saying that it’s some deities will something should happen.

          So Christina, simply say YOU think something should happen and then everything will be fine and religion won’t be an issue because it’s an opinion of a valued member here, not the opinion of a deity that can’t be verified.

          • bachcole

            You should look within to try to understand why you are irritated so much by her. You are trying your best to force believers to be as shallow as you are. Atheism is by definition shallow.

            • Veblin

              Jump #2

            • Fortyniner

              Your definition, perhaps.

            • georgehants

              bachcole and all, it matters not if one is atheist, religious, spiritualist or what ever, it only matters the true goodness in one’s mind.

              • bachcole

                Do you mean that if I beat the hell out of an innocent person with a crucifix rather than a lead pipe that it won’t make any difference?

                • Fortyniner

                  ? Your comments get more and more bizarre, Roger. I wonder if you even understood GH’s point.

                • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

                  I’d think you would be a bad person either way. Not getting your argument here.

                • bachcole

                  I was sarcastically making george’s point.

            • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

              Roger, what’s up with all the defending of Christina? Christina is a smart woman who seems fully capable to understand this is not against her personally, but simply a consensus by I guess most to leave religion out of the discusion as it has the potential to distort that discussion.

              Christina is a full grown adult and if she disagrees with what is being said then she can join the discussion. She will be treated with respect and be listened to as we have done before. However this is an online forum where people of all kinds meet and as such friction will occur. That’s normal and healthy.

              So you don’t need to be her knight in shining armor; the lady can take care of herself.

              Lastly, by calling atheism and by extension me shallow is a bit sad. I don’t think you are shallow but an interesting person though I do not use religion to judge you. It’s a shame you feel the need to judge me on the fact that I do not believe. Which is the sort of thing I think most of us are trying to avoid here.

              • bachcole

                I am merely being defensive. I see organized religion being attacked, and I defend it, although I do not adhere to any organized religion. I just think that they have a perfect right to be whatever way that they are.

                • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

                  I do not see the attack here. And it’s a bit puzzling why you should defend religion although you do not adhere to it. Is it religion or Christina you try to defend? The latter is very chivalrous, but not really nessecary as I’ve already explained earlier. It is all getting a bit weird.

                • bachcole

                  I don’t want to see anyone attacked, particularly someone who is doing that best that they are able.

                • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

                  There is still no attack going on. An attack would be if I would deny someone his or her right to believe. I also do not say God does not exist for others because it does not exist for me, neither do I ridicule religion. I merely point out that religion does not deliver good arguments.

                  The attack is in your perception, not in mine and I suspect no others. Best to just let it go, ok?

          • Iggy Dalrymple
            • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

              Thanks Iggy, that’s beautiful.

        • bachcole

          And I wish that you would keep your envy driven politics out of this discussion.

          • bitplayer

            I wish that bachole would desist from attack rhetoric.

            • bachcole

              I am not in attack mode. I am in defense mode, defending a sweet lady who has plenty to offer in this forum

      • bachcole

        I resent your putting Christina down and wish that you would be a little more tolerant.

        • Veblin

          Fonzie did it Jump.

          • bachcole

            I am not a conservative Christian nor would 99.99% of all Christians think that I was a Christian if they knew where I really was at. And I share you guys’ irritation at Christina. But if the word “tolerance” has any meaning, it does not mean ones attitude towards what one likes. I am not tolerant of curry because I like curry. Tolerance is only real when it is directed at those who irritate one. I believe that Christina is deliberately trying to get a rise out of you’all. But even if she wasn’t, what kind of tolerance is it if you have it only for those who happen to like.

            • Fortyniner

              Read your own words. Why do you preach tolerance when you are clearly intolerant of any opinion that differs from your own? Perhaps a little more introspection would be in order before posting.

            • Iggy Dalrymple

              “The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.” Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)

              • bachcole

                Yes, but what does that mean? Is that stage right or one’s own right. And the concept of political right and left started shortly after the Revolution in France, about 2100 years more or less after Ecclesiastes was written.

                • Iggy Dalrymple

                  Lighten up Roger. It’s a joke. I doubt the Bible was talking about politics, but it still strikes home.