The Cradle to Cradle E-Cat


I’ve been doing some reading and research on the ‘Cradle to Cradle’ philosophy proposed by American designer William McDonough and German materials scientist Michael Braungart in their 2002 book Cradle to Cradle: Remaking the Way We Make Things in which they argue for a radically new approach to manufacturing in which products are designed to be safe, non-toxic, can be reused for other purposes after they have lost their usefulness, and eventually become completely biodgradeable.

After writing the book McDonough and Braungart founded the The Cradle to Cradle Products Innovation Institute, a non-profit organization which “administers the Cradle to Cradle Certified Product Standard. It was created to bring about a new industrial revolution that turns the making of things into a positive force for society, economy, and the planet.”

Manufacturers can apply to have products rated in terms of their environmental and social benefits. There is a five-level scale (basic, bronze, silver, gold and platinum) and products given ratings in the categories of material health, material reutilization, renewable energy & carbon management, water stewardship and social fairness.

In a speech at the University of California in 2009 (I think), McDonough explained the mission of his organization.

“Our goal is a delightfully diverse, safe, healthy and just world, with clean air, water, soil and power — economically, equitably, ecologically and elegantly enjoyed.”

Clean energy features strongly in the Cradle to Cradle philosophy. In that talk Bill McDonough said he was not in favor of tradition nuclear power, but that “I’m interested in nuclear power in a certain way, specifically I’m interested in nuclear fusion. I think we should spend trillions of dollars capturing the effects of nuclear fusion immediately, and I’m delighted to know that our nuclear reactor is exactly where we need it — 93 million miles away. It’s 8 minutes, and it’s wireless — what is our problem?”

As we have mentioned here before, William McDonough is a friend and collaborator with Cherokee Investment Partners CEO Tom Darden, and Darden is a board member of the Cradle to Cradle Products Innovation Institute — so it would seem they share a similar philosophy regarding responsible and environmentally and socially friendly manufacturing and business practices.

A reader of the Journal of Nuclear Physics (probably picking up on the above connections) asked Andrea Rossi whether the E-Cat would be a cradle to cradle product. At first he did not understand the question, but later wrote:

Silvio Caggia:
As you explained in an email sent to me privately, “from cradle to cradle product” means essentially a product wasteless during the production, the working life and the dismission: in this case, yes, the E-Cat is a cradle to cradle product. All the components are recyclable and the “wastes” are recyclable metals.
Thank you for the interesting question.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

If Cherokee really is the E-Cat partner, it’s not to difficult to see why. The E-Cat being clean, green and reclyclable fits nicely into the Cradle to Cradle philosopy. We may well find that people like McDonough and Braungart are some of the strongest proponents of E-Cat energy, and with the many connections they have in business, industry and politics they might prove to have a lot of influence in fostering its adoption.


  • Reiner

    It’s a pitty – but we can succest every thing – in this capitalist socieaty – only one count – profit. For this the peoples and the earth will be destroit – the dicussion here ist only e valve no tool to change anything!

    • bachcole

      May I suggest, with respect, that you re-write your comment in your language and see if Google Translate can translate it for you. I can’t seem to understand your meaning.

  • FrankM

    If this thing is real then nuke proliferation gets tough to hide; so the military might promote it (cuz harder for new states to start programs under nuke energy guise).

    • bachcole

      Yes, FrankM, I didn’t realize that there will be NO excuse for conventional fission development, when LENR is 100 times cheaper and 10,000 times safer.

  • bachcole

    We are the elite. I don’t mean that our IQs are going to show up as being higher than other people’s. I guarantee that many skeptics and skeptopaths, particularly those who are working in hot-fusion and deny cold fusion, will have higher IQs than most of us, including me. We may not even be the most creative thinkers around. But there is some category which I cannot label but only describe in which WE are the elite.

    We are here. That proves that we are the elite in paradigm shifting nimbleness ability. Yes, there are other superior PSN people not here. And yes, there may be some people here who are very lucky and were able to be included among us who aren’t such superior PSN people. And there are other groups that have superior PSN people.

    Now, I am not saying this just to congratulate myself on being so cool. It is just a fact. It also gets me into trouble. If I visit a conservative or a liberal site and make comments, I get people screaming at me. They are not PSN people. In fact, they are hide-bound and wallowing in their positions. In fact, they rationalize inconsistently trying to support their positions.

    Just saying . . . . . .

  • bachcole

    And Pedro’s contribution: http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_piff_does_money_make_you_mean.html
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw

    I would hope that any conservative would look at these two videos and think it over. This does NOT mean that we adopt the left’s ideas and policies wholesale. I do hope that the liberals would try to understand many of the conservatives objections to the liberals ideas. It does no good for people to be bickering and adopting policies and ideas without thinking them through.

    For example, most liberals support minimum wage laws. But conservatives make very good points that minimum wage laws hurt entry level workers. It makes perfect sense that if the revenue stream of a business does not increase, then an increase in the minimum wage will only mean that some people won’t get jobs. And this shows boldly for anyone who wants to see. Every state has minimum wage laws, and yet unemployment figures among the poor and among blacks is dreadful. The minimum wage laws don’t work. So, instead of bickering, people should be asking themselves creative questions about what would work.

    I am very fond of the maximum salary ratio that is or is akin to the Swiss idea that they were (or are) tossing around. I see too much bickering and not enough facing facts and not enough creative thinking.

    When even rich people are meaner and are harmed by income disparity, then that should be a freaking clue for everyone. My wife, who doesn’t have a mean, political, envious, or vengeful bone in her body was the first person to inform me that rich people were simply meaner than poor people. And she lived it in the Philippines. For some reason unlike the USA, she had a lot of exposure to rich people. She rubbed shoulders with them; their children played with her. Ironically, she probably knows rich people better than I do.

    • georgehants

      Roger I pass you this link in all good faith and apologise if my action is misplaced.
      http://www.victorzammit.com/

      • bachcole

        Dear George, I thank you. I got the message loud and clear. In fact, I
        am one of the messengers on this one. I am not this physical body, and
        I have known this as a living, breathing fact for about 44 years, one
        of those burn your fingers on the E-Cat facts. (:->)

  • bachcole

    Here we go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw This is the video that made my inner Barry Goldwater turn over in his grave. If this does not make a conservative rethink their position, then they have no good sense.

    There must be a balance between socialistic concerns and individualist concerns, and I mean both words in the best possible ways.

  • bachcole

    Good video, but this is not the one I was looking for: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

    The problems of extreme income disparity are easily perceived in the whining I see here and in the Occupy movement. I am not criticizing. It is what it is. People who have big screen TVs and advanced cellphones are complaining bitterly about being “poor”. This does not mean that they are wrong and should be ignored. It means that it is not all about having objects.

    Power is part of it. How could such income accumulation NOT twist the political system.

    But even beyond that, it seems meaningless to say that all of these complainers and whiners are at fault; they can’t all be spoiled. I have learned a lot in life by listening to people and saying that they must be wrong just because I don’t share their perspective. We didn’t get to the point of believing in LENR by ignoring and being skeptical of what other people had to say.

  • bachcole

    Christine, you said it all. Only I would change the initial word “utopian” to “perfect”. We can do much better than we are doing now, but perfection is NOT going to happen.

  • bitplayer

    Pentagon program to watch for emerging Chinese technology. Wonder if they’ll find anything interesting.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/nation/2014/01/08/technology-watch-horizon-scanning-pentagon/4240487/

    • Daniel Maris

      I don’t normally run with connecting up disconnected stories but I think your link could be related.

      “Concerned about the potential military consequences of a surge of high
      tech innovation in China and other nations, the Pentagon is creating a
      program to track and analyze emerging technology research and patents,
      military records and interviews show.”

      It does rather match with the idea of China getting a lead on LENR doesn’t it? I think it is definitely one to file under “possible”.

      • bachcole

        The Pentagon does not and cannot realize that the E-Cat will create a world which they, the Pentagon, does not have to flinch every time someone seems to be a threat to us in a world of scarcity, because we won’t be in a world of nearly as much scarcity. Energy and thus everything else, including living space will suddenly become much less scarce.

  • cx

    is it me or does the design for this site change daily

    • ecatworld

      No, it’s not you — a couple of days ago I switched to a new web design system and I have been spending some time making modifications.

  • FrankM
  • bachcole

    Dear georgehants,

    Frank deleted your comment about my emotional age, but my response is that you are OK, George. I do not take offense. I think that is kind of cute. It is important to not take ourselves too seriously. I hope that I learn from you-all and not just bolster my ego.

    Roger

    • georgehants

      bachcole, you seem to display a very young understanding on many subjects, that is fine if you do not keep disrupting the direction of the topic in hand.
      Perhaps you could bring yourself to make some relevant comment on the subject other than calling my thoughts that of a Unicorn which I notice Admin has not deleted.

  • GreenWin

    This is an interesting prospect. Thanks for the update Frank. It suggests that the next generation of manufacturing at least in industrialized nations will or should be built around this model. Robotics and 3D printing will replace personnel and machine shops in some processes. But the Cradle design element is where college grads should look for employment. It is an excellent place for students/departments of environmental studies to evolve to.

    In his provocative book “A Whole New Mind” author Daniel Pink suggests that “right brainers” will define the future of product and service development. Left brain, logical function (IT, economics, law etc) will be tempered with a new emphasis on right brain thinking typified by Design, Story, Symphony, Empathy, Play and Meaning. Seems to fit well with the Cradle to Cradle concept. Check out the Discussion Guide links for educators and business. http://www.danpink.com/books/whole-new-mind/

    As for partners. We all have some ideas which may be best left aside as AR and team need to work without unwanted attention. Certainly from my perspective, they are doing magnificent work; and I would hope the good doctor will keep Frank and his supportive readers as much in the “loop” as possible.

    • georgehants

      GreenWin, we must remember that the left and right brain is just neuroscientist guess work.
      They do not have clue, there are people walking around with almost no brain from birth perfectly able to work with logic and creativity.
      The savants are the real clue, but again most of science likes to hide them away to maintain their myths that the brain is just a steam engine and of course there is no such thing as the mind.
      I can supply links for my above but am sure you are familiar.

      • bachcole

        I have heard of people who are severely brain damaged from birth who grow up and function just fine. Even so much as one of these people should turn neuroscience on it’s head. But it doesn’t. Why is that?

        • georgehants

          bachcole, rather than just put up obvious questions you may try to attempt to answer your own.

          • Fortyniner

            The search terms are not obvious, so here are a couple of starters for Roger:

            http://sciencenordic.com/can-we-blame-brain

            http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/science/is_the_brain_really_necessary.htm

            • georgehants

              Hi Peter, thanks for doing the Research that is available to everybody with a little effort.
              Do you ever get on to the Basingstoke canal, a few o.k. watering holes down this way.

              • Fortyniner

                Not so far, George, although it’s within range of my current mooring. The number of very pleasant pubs on the canals is definitely one of the main attractions of the hobby.

            • GreenWin

              Thanks Peter, very interesting. George, I think that Daniel Pink and others aware of consciousness studies refer to left/right brain function metaphorically. To distinguish logical from imaginative and creative thinking. Personally I believe much human understanding arrives from what Sheldrake calls “morphic resonance” and others call intuition. Certainly the examples in Peter’s links demonstrate the human body has a remarkable non-local ability.

              • georgehants

                GreenWin, agreed the Evidence and honest Research shows how wrong scientific reductionist thinking is.
                That will have to be all for now as Admin is not happy with discussions of the type of World the E-cat should be in.
                Best.

                • ecatworld

                  Not so, George — I think the topics are interesting and important, but these threads can go way off topic if we’re not careful. The forum is set up so people can set the topics themselves and discuss them freely.

                • georgehants

                  Admin, you said —- “I think the topics are interesting and important,”
                  I put up two comments this morning, one on the faults with scientific journals in the main-line press that has effected Cold Fusion and many other subjects so badly.
                  It has received one reply.
                  ——
                  A second on the possible new World that the E-cat could help to establish if people took the trouble to help change things, From that comment I have received a number of reply’s, most of them helpful and need no answer or a quick reply by me.
                  The rest are taken up with my efforts with a particular poster, who I either ignore or try to discuss his points.
                  ——
                  I think neither of my points where particularly off topic but agree that the directions I have had to follow to reply at times moves into the bizar.
                  Please advise as I am a little confused now.

              • georgehants

                GreenWin, Wonderful Sheldrake, can I recommend to Peter as well, The Biology of Belief, Lipton PhD.
                Epigenetics.

                • Fortyniner

                  Thanks George – just downloaded to my e-reader.

            • bachcole

              Nice links. The question “Where is consciousness?” is a false question given that consciousness is not an object. It is the Ultimate Subject.

              • bitplayer

                That’s a fallacy of the Mind Only School. The Middle Way demonstrates that consciousness is conditioned in many ways, and thus not ultimate in any way.

                Or as Obi-Wan Kenobi put it, “Only the Sith believe in absolutes.”

                • bachcole

                  Who said anything about conditioned. “Conditioned” could also mean “tainted”, tainted with mental impressions. Consciousness is interpenetrates and transcends body, prana, and mind. (:->)

                • bitplayer

                  bachole: Status of X, because Y.
                  bitplayer: Not Y, because W, therefore not status of X.
                  bachole: W? Meanings of W. Features of X.
                  bitplayer: Ok, so we’re not really having a syllogistic discussion. Got it :-)

                • bachcole

                  I do not expect to know truth using logical arguments or any intellectual effort whatsoever. And we have strayed into an area where I feel extremely vulnerable and threatened, so I will not respond to any more comments regarding the search for truth or consciousness. I have already posted a comment that says it all for me. Let those who have eyes to see see.

  • Timar

    Small correction: Micheal Braungart isn’t an American designer. He’s a German material scientist…

    • ecatworld

      Thanks — I didn’t realize that!

  • bachcole

    There are some mutual funds whose mission is to invest ONLY in green technologies.

  • georgehants

    Why we are not ready for radical changes in science publishing
    There are indeed concerns about the current science publishing model, but
    until major changes in grant funding are incorporated, researchers will
    continue to lust after publications in high-tier journals
    http://www.theguardian.com/science/occams-corner/2014/jan/06/radical-changes-science-publishing-randy-schekman

    • GreenWin

      Thank you George. This article appears unsigned for some reason. The author a cell biologist argues against Nobel laureate Randy Sheckman’s boycott of the “super journals” – i.e. for keeping the same old status quo. He couldn’t be more wrong. The artificial “impact factor” determines what studies get published in the super journals. Impact factor has nothing to do with science – everything to do with knowledge gate keeping. By controlling access to three major journals, Cell, Science and Nature and a half dozen others – research funding in the US and Europe is in the hands of journal “editors.”

      This is not good science or education or knowledge in the interest of humanity. Like it or not, publishing has and will continue to change. History will show that the Levi-Elforsk study published on Cornell’s ArXiv server had little impact – yet was an early introduction to a technology destined to change the planet. Publishing openly, especially in areas considered “fringe” or out of the box – is the best way to disseminate such knowledge. It is only by sparking the imagination of many that we will benefit from the few who will use that imagination to make new discoveries.

      “Imagination is more important than knowledge. For
      knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while
      imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to
      know and understand.”
      A Einstein

      • psi2u2

        Greenwin, thanks for the excellent comment. The same is true from my perspective in the humanities. Gatekeeping very often seems to take precedence over the goal of advancing knowledge. But the internet gives good ideas entirely unprecedented vectors of distribution.

  • georgehants

    Could I just make the point “again” that without capitalism and profit, but a fair sharing system where people are happy to work short hours and short working lives then their would be no waste, the E-cat would be brought in action as soon as possible and all outdated technology’s removed.
    The people put out of work would of course celebrate the freeing of more people to “enjoy” their lives.
    This system starts from the position that everybody at age say sixteen is entitled to a small home and all fair needs, health etc. no mortgage, no bills etc.
    No inheritance, no rich and powerful, no unearned privileges, everybody starts from the same position and moves on in life to their abilities and desires.
    One then is rewarded by the extra work one does for society or one’s extra talents etc.

    • JCK

      This is class 1 civilization. I like your vision but we still have racial hatred, fundamental religion hatred, political differences……greed and savagery.

      • georgehants

        JCK, not quite following your logic, are you saying that because of the things you mention we should not find a better, fairer system.
        Perhaps a fairer life system would help to solve some of the problems you mention.

        • bachcole

          The left believes that a better structure to society will cause individuals to become better. The right thinks that better individuals will automatically make for a better society. I believe both and neither. People never will be perfect as finite beings and if everything was just hunky-dory there would be no spiritual growth.

          • Pedro

            Eye opener for left and right in this TED talk… http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_piff_does_money_make_you_mean.html. 15 minutes well spent!

            • Bernie Koppenhofer

              That was great, interesting, bachcole, please watch!

            • bachcole

              I have already seen the video about the statistics of how income disparity within a nation phucks everything up. My thinking on these matters has been altered greatly because of that video, and I thank you for this TED talk, Pedro. If you or anyone else can give me the link to that other video so that I can keep it, I would appreciate it. And I will keep this link also.

              I am still opposed to excessive government intervention. When taxes become voluntary, then I will become a liberal. I also oppose the minimum wage, but I strongly support the maximum income ratio that is or was being considered in Switzerland.

              I also propose a generation skipping confiscation of unearned income. Say my father inherited $1 million dollars. Say he builds that $1 million up to $2 million. My inheritance from him can only be $1 million; the rest goes to the government (and hopefully other taxes are reduced by $1 million.) So I have inherited $1 million. Say I do nothing with my life except fritter away my time commenting on http://www.ecatworld.com and die with an estate of $1 million. When I die, my children get nothing and the government gets everything. This incentivizes wealth creation, assuming that people give a damn about their children. It also depresses wealth accumulation at the top.

              • georgehants

                bachcole, your reply is very bitty and disjointed would you like to comment on the benefits or faults of the topic being proposed above.

              • Bernie Koppenhofer

                Barry Goldwater just turned over in his grave.

                • bachcole

                  As much as I admired the thinking of Barry Goldwater in the 1960′s, the direction of my thought does not come from other thought but from experience, deductive reasoning, and spiritual values. I think that those two videos should get their own Thunderclap.

                  But remember, government can only be a charity organization when taxation is voluntary. If you want a better society, you have to change the culture. Using government to change the culture is a prescription for government bullying. The FDA, North Korea, and numerous other social groups have given us perfect examples of this.

              • Pedro

                That talk about the far reaching negative consequences of income unequality is by Richard Wilkinson and is called “How economic inequality harms societies”. Absolute eye opener! The link:http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html

                • bachcole

                  Thank you, Pedro. I found it while you were typing your comment. It is INCREDIBLY eye-opening. But instead of hating and bickering and denigrating each other, left and right should be trying to think together creatively how the problem can be solved. I have proposed the maximum salary ratio and the generation skipping unearned wealth confiscation. I want us to live in a market society. I do not want the very rich to be so freaking rich that the crony-capitalism rules. And I want a healthier society, healthier in every sense of the word.

          • georgehants

            bachcole, you seem a strange fellow, you suggest you are “spiritual” and yet put up an argument saying that a system should not be in place where everybody in the World has free and easy access to all life saving drugs.
            If you are in any way “spiritual” one may think you should be making every effort to help improve the lives of those in need.

            • bachcole

              Pharmaceutical drugs don’t save lives. They remove symptoms. Taking responsibility for one’s health saves one’s own life. Helping and guiding others while they are taking responsibility for their own lives help save their lives. I do that ALL day long; I just don’t think that this forum is the proper place to give health advice; so I don’t do it here much.

              • georgehants

                bachcole, you seem often to use the same circular tactics in your comments as the trolls who debunk Cold Fusion etc.
                Could you explain your reasoning for disbelieving that penicillin has saved millions of lives.

                • bachcole

                  My main health emphasis is building health strength rather than killing germs. It is certain that penicillin has saved lives. It is also certain that antibiotics and other drugs do a lot of damage, far more than you may realize because you may not know of the connections between immune health and gut microbiota and immune challenges. With regard to health, I am anything but conservative. I am an extreme anarchist when it comes to health. The conservative position with regard to pharmaceutical companies is that they are a bunch of heros and we should support them; after all, they are scientific. My position with regard to pharmaceutical companies is that they should all be charged with crimes against humanity.

                • georgehants

                  bachcole, I agree and am very familiar with much you say regarding the Placebo Effect which of course effects the body and mind by every single action or inaction that we as humans enact.
                  I asked you, allowing for the body and minds power to heal itself, please give your Evidence that Penicillin has not saved millions of lives since it’s belated introduction after the scientific debunkers delayed it’s coming of age.

                • bachcole

                  George, re-read my post. I agree that penicillin has been a life saver. In acute disease situations and with traumatic injuries, modern medicine is unparalleled.

                • georgehants

                  bachcole you said in your post—- “Pharmaceutical drugs don’t save lives.”
                  Please get your act together and stop distorting and now answer, —- Do you believe that Pharmaceutical drugs such as Penicillin save lives or not.

                • bachcole

                  (:->) Do you mean net lives or specific lives in specific circumstances. I read people’s reports every day, all day long, who are like the freaking walking dead because of the damage that antibiotics have done to their gut microbiota. These people are so broken that their maladies don’t even fit into any categories. And it is because antibiotics kill gut microbiota. On the battlefield, antibiotics save lots of lives. If you get an antibiotic from your doctor, make sure that you replace and cultivate your gut microbiota, or else I am going to be reading your report of how your life was ruined because of an antibiotic. You never hear about this from doctors or the lamestream news media because they have their lips super-glued to the a$$-ends of Big Pharma.

                • georgehants

                  bachcole, you seem to be rambling, I asked —-
                  “Do you believe that Pharmaceutical drugs such as Penicillin save lives or not.”
                  From your comment ” On the battlefield, antibiotics save lots of lives” I presume you agree they do.
                  The rest of your comment although interesting would be better put in a separate comment of your own, do you not agree?
                  The original question was my asking why you where implying that you are against helpful drugs such as Aids etc. not being freely available throughout the World in a system such as I have proposed above.

                • Bernie Koppenhofer

                  Re: bachcole: Save your breath it is like talking to your TV while Fox News is
                  on. We need your breath on this site to discus Rossi and LNER.

                • georgehants

                  Bernie, I think Mr. Rossi et al and Cold fusion are all doing very well and hope for great things in the near future.
                  I also think that we guys who have been willing to keep open, fair minds for so long on Cold Fusion should when things re Rossi etc. are quite, find great pleasure in looking at how Cold Fusion will best benefit all in the World and not as now, just mainly those elevated unjustly by a system not designed for when productivity of all basic and fair luxuries for all can be produced by a fraction of the workforce now employed.
                  The rest being cannon fodder of the capitalist system.
                  All the best.

                • ecatworld

                  There’s lots of discussion here that’s strayed a long way from the subject of this thread, which might be frustrating for people looking for discussion of the topic at hand. I’d suggest taking these kinds of topics over to the forum — it’s designed for discussion on all kinds of things that may be off topic in these threads: http://www.e-catworld.com/forum

                • georgehants

                  Admin, sorry to upset the cart.
                  Silly of me to believe that the kind of World that the E-cat could help to provide is worth talking about.
                  I shall refrain.

                • bachcole

                  It’s all GreenWin’s and georgehant’s fault.

                  (:->)

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Generally physicists believe we may evolve towards a class 1 civilization. I think that is a good classification: “A Type I civilization extracts its energy, information, and
        raw-materials from fusion power, hydrogen, and other “high-density”
        renewable-resources; is capable of interplanetary spaceflight, interplanetary communication, megascale engineering, and colonization, medical and technological singularity, planetary engineering, world government, trade and defense, and stellar system-scale influence; but are still vulnerable to extinction”.

        The worry here is while we get more and more technologically advanced, the human mindset may not be as advanced and some may choose to destroy the current civilization before we reach a Type 1 civilization. In fact it is speculated that throughout space more species may have trouble reaching Type 1 if they are anything like us.

        A single individual being brilliant in biological warfare could for instance create a virus that could potentially kill mankind. It’s even relatively simple to do. Now take the virus, go on a trip around the world and leave the virus on every place you visited. The virus could be of a type that first contaminates and after an incubation period of say a year breaks out. By that time it could be too late for mankind.

        Problem is how you stop people who don’t have the same vision or conscience as you have. It could be that we cannot reach a Type 1 civilization if we cannot advance as mankind as well. I think we are on a crossroads and to me it’s impossible to predict if we will choose correct.

    • Kim

      Yes to all of the above.
      When the idea of LENR and its Cheap energy
      is allowed to enter the psychic of the people
      then all the the above becomes possible.

      Its a simple Yes or No decision at this point.
      It will be like flipping a switch… then a slow
      realization over time (humans are creatures of habit)

      Respect
      Kim

    • bachcole

      Pure, unadulterated unicorn thinking.

      • georgehants

        bachcole
        “You may say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one. I hope someday you’ll join us. And the world will live as one.”

        John Lennon

        • bachcole

          georgehants, et. al.,

          “ALL souls(atmas)were, are and will be in the Over-Soul (Paramatma).
          Souls (atmas) are all One.
          All souls are infinite and eternal. They are formless.
          All souls are One; there is no difference in souls or in their being and existence as souls.
          There is a difference in the consciousness of souls;” [The plot thickens.]

        • GreenWin

          Please see the Einstein quote above. Imagine!

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Please, not so many negative comments, especially when you do not give alternatives. Feels like I am watching Fox News.

        • bachcole

          I did give alternatives somewhere here. Read them, ponder them, and get the phuck off my case.

          I love Fox News, although I never watch anything but NetFlix.

          • georgehants

            bachcole, Temper temper little boy.

          • bitplayer

            The use of disguised profanity does not reduce the emotional impact. It is your intention to be slapping people in the face, emotionally?

            • bachcole

              I apologize to each and all. I am having trouble with insomnia and it makes me prickly. (:-<)

    • bitplayer

      The problem is not so much the ideal end state as how to get to the ideal end state.

      I don’t have an issue with the theoretical existence of unicorns. I just don’t know how to breed a unicorn.

      Even without a perfect model of the dynamics required to get the the ideal end state (e.g. the necessary changes to current human psychology), the transition to such a state would required a sequence of attainable milestones.

      What is even a first step in the direction toward the end state you propose?

      Challenge: the first step has to be “do-able”: feasible, effective and acceptable (i.e. not defeated by resistance).

      If the plan starts with something like “first get a billion dollars” or “first acquire telepathic control of other people” or “first get everyone to change their voting habits” then, without further elucidation, it fits into the category of being only impossible in the real world.

      • georgehants

        bitplayer, I am sure you like most others on these pages, if one puts one’s mind to it, without that brainwashed resistance you mention, could very quickly begin to put forward positive suggestions to start to achieve such a beneficial system I have outlined.
        Maybe you would like to make a start and perhaps many others will find they also can be productively positive.
        Almost like being open-minded about Cold Fusion 24 years ago, is it not.
        Most seem to fear the first jump into a cold swimming pool, but that is only natural I suppose, except for those usual few Rebels.

        • bitplayer

          Well, you have to start with a theory of change. In one view, conditions are not only determined by the positions of objects, but also by the forces that act on those objects. In the domain under discussion, the forces are actions by people. Which translates into capabilities and interests, or more bluntly, power and desire. For all of history, a small percentage of the population has had most of the power. “Power” means the ability to cause change, but in a dynamic world, that also means the ability to prevent change. And while a lot of human power is about producing value so we don’t all starve naked in caves, a lot of human power is also used to maintain and increase status, dominance and wealth. Net is to make any kind of real change happen in the political, social and economic spheres, you either have to 1) wait, because conservatives (those who conserve power and restrict capability) historically always lose out to progressives (those who want to make progress in the general increase and distribution of power and capability), or 2) you have to do something to act to reverse the monopolization of power, i.e. inequality of power (mostly but not at all entirely wealth). Since the world ultimately is ruled by mobs with pitchforks, which is to say by the grudging consent of the bread-ed and circus-ed masses, one approach is to get more people to be motivated to oppose inequality. The challenge there is that the people with power are very good at hiding their use of power, making power uncomfortable to talk about, and also handing out bread and circuses (now brought to you on your smartphone). So you have to find, engage and aim some strong existing motivating force at the issue of inequality. I believe that motivating force is the wide-spread, strongly negative moral condemnation that people feel when they see that power has been used for selfish purposes in a way that causes other people to suffer. It takes a certain amount of perspective to see that the people who act to increase inequality are guilty of exactly this type of behavior, and therefore deserving of moral condemnation, which if it can be developed with sufficient strength, and correlated to meaningful action, has a reasonable chance of causing people to vote differently. So an action point is to illuminate the connection between inequality and suffering, and to lay the responsibility for this suffering on the heads of the people who actively promote inequality. Now, how to do that is complicated, but there may be a path, provided by multi-agent simulation sofware, open-source development, and grassroots journalism. Complicated, but not out of the question. The way to get THAT started is to write it up and dump it into the blog-o-sphere.

          Thanks for the opportunity to practice!

          • georgehants

            bitplayer, that is Wonderful, if it is your own it should be on the front page of every journal, scientific and social.
            That will have to be all for now as Admin is not happy with discussions of the type of World the E-cat should be in.
            Best.

  • Omega Z

    I still don’t believe Cherokee is the Partner.
    It would be more probable that they are interested in developing Products to work with the E-cat. Aftermarket. They may in fact have been recruited just for that purpose. And they may be just 1 of many. We are only aware of them because of a slip. Doubt that happens again.

    My Reasoning is that Regardless who Rossi’s partner is, There is no Ready made Market for E-cats. Only Potential Market. The E-cat is of little use with out additional product/hardware development. High or low temp.

    Even if it were Babcock & Wilcox, Siemens, GE or All of them together, Their primary goal would be Electrical Generation. Power plants of some sort. And, That is a limited market due to Resources regardless how many power plants are needed. Limited in Finance, Turbine manufacturing & most importantly, Those qualified with the skills necessary to build them. All of these are the Limits holding them back at this very moment.

    Note that Siemens added 500K sqft to their Turbine Facility in North Carolina 1 1/2 years ago & are still training personnel to do the work. Even Graduate Engineers need to go thru Siemens Trade schooling.

    So How do you mass produce E-cats in a limited market. Open Up the Market. Bring in 3rd parties to start the R&D & then manufacture. The E-cat, Tho similar, is different from most every configuration in use. All need to be redesigned. Possibly from scratch to be optimized.

    Most here greatly under estimate the Industrial processes that need heat. Many use electric heat for obvious reasons as certain fumes react badly to open flames. And others less obvious. Explosive particulates in the air. And where gas is used because it’s cheaper requires more sophisticated(Expensive) arrangements on the front end. E-cats would be cheaper all around.

    Consider this. We Generate Steam to produce Electricity at 1/3 conversion. Transport it by wire to Industry that turns it back to heat for use. Not very efficient but necessary in many processes for many reasons.

    But with E-cats, You use a little Electricity to produce 6, Maybe 10 times the heat at the Industrial end. Not even Gas is that cheap.
    But all this requires new hardware & collaboration of many different Entities.
    No Business or Corporation tries to do it all. They do what their good at & leave the rest to those expert in their own fields.

    If I were going to mass produce E-cats, I’d want someone out there making Products or components that use them. Someone to buy My E-cats. Otherwise, why would I need to mass produce them…

    • Daniel Maris

      No, I don’t agree with most of what you say. To take just one thing, the E CAt would not be competing for =additional= turbine-making skills. It would be out-competing older technologies e.g. gas for existing skills. If (a big if) an E Cat can produce electricity at 2 cents per KwH, it will out-compete other technologies. Also, a lot of E Cats would be retro-fitted to existing turbines.

      • malkom700

        Agree, moreover, it should be noted that the key is to deploy at least one unit anywhere in the world, although in North Korea. It can not prevent neither the government, oil lobby and pathological skeptics.

      • Omega Z

        You still need the Turbines. The E-cat would merely replace the Burner function. Of which coupling would require a major redesign.

        There’s a couple of other technologies for Electric conversion in development, but are likely 10+ years away.
        Another issue is the Skilled labor. Average age of skilled labor in the world is 50+ years old. Far to few are entering the skilled trades.
        Starting pay for engineers is $75K straight out of school and experienced engineers depending on experience & field of expertize is $100K to $200K a year. Even China is Poaching U.S. Engineers. With some interesting perks.

        There is approximately 1000 Power Plants on order & most are begging/Waiting for engineers & other skilled trades. Drop in units for existing plants will fair no better & will need serious modification.
        Multiple Problems are developing. People with the skills aren’t where jobs are geographically. People present where the jobs are don’t have the skills.

        Most people don’t realize that many skilled trades can earn as much or more then College degrees with Major student loans to pay off. Except a few. Lawyers, Doctors, Engineers. Caveat. You need to be willing to go where the Jobs are. That’s tough if your raising a Family.

        On the near horizon(About 20 years). Working Population shortage. Only 1 in 3 will be in the working age. Even in China. Their working age population dropped for the 1st time in 2010. That being the latest to date Data. New projections show China being in population decline before 2030 verses originally leveling at that time. Population model more or less revised back at least 10 years.
        This is a world wide phenomena with very few exceptions.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      In principle it’s a good idea to focus on heat production. Unfortunately, many of the most energy-intensive industrial processes require high temperatures. For instance, blast furnaces for iron smelting need a temperature >> 1500 C, which is above the melting point of nickel. Therefore, even an improved “Hot-Cat” wouldn’t be applicable as a direct heat source.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Iron ore smelting is probably not the best example, since the coal that’s being used for heating is also necessary for the reduction of Fe2O3 (mostly via CO). But I think one could find other cases where the maximum temperature of a Hot-Cat won’t be sufficient. Aluminium production requires electricity, so that the conversion of heat, with a much lower effectiveness, would be unavoidable.

      • Omega Z

        Yes, I’ve pointed that out before here at ECW.

        Oil, Gas, & Coal will all still be a vital resource. Just at a
        reduced quantity & all necessary in the Steel producing process.
        Without them we would have no Cats…

        N-Gas is vital to carbonizing steel. As to bearing manufacturing, the
        steel has already been carbonized to a point before it’s cut/shaped.

        It’s then run thru a carbonizing furnace at 2000`F with an RX Gas
        atmosphere. RX-Gas is Natural gas infused with air at around 2200`F then
        feed in as a neutral atmosphere. The Furnace at 2000`F is then feed Raw
        Natural Gas. This converts to carbon which is absorbed by the steel.
        Sample parts are cut/dissected analyzed for thicknesses & depth of
        certain elements & case hardness. Your bearings are a metal sponge. :) The Bearing manufacturer near where I live uses like 300K to 400K
        Cubic foot of Natural Gas per hour 24/7 usually 365 days a year. I don’t
        no how that breaks down in therms. What I do know is their Heat Treat
        Department is so hot, Satan doesn’t even visit. The Arabs pack up
        & go back to their desert home to cool down And Death Valley is a
        COOL place to vacation. :) Yeah, I worked there for a while. On
        Purpose!! Ey sufter na eel ifickts.

        But anyway, people don’t realize how much low temp heat is used in the
        products all around us. Just about everything. All processed Food,
        cloths/fabrics, wood, paper usually exposed multiple times before the
        end product.

        Nearly Every Grain Farmer in the U.S. uses heat to dry the corn/beans in
        Grain Bins & this can be year round as many are still selling &
        hauling the previous crops to the Grain elevators while preparing to
        harvest the next. And all the Commercial Grain elevators do the same..
        They do this to keep the moisture content around 8%. To high & it
        Rots/Spoils(Mold equals trash/Toxic). And while it sets it will absorb
        moisture. So it’s constantly monitored & dried/stirred on a regular
        bases. I would venture this adds about 40 cents or more to a bushel of
        corn before it gets where it going. It’s a narrow range. Low Moisture
        gets the farmer docked as well as if it’s to high. Used to be something
        like 8 cents every point or so, but that was years ago, Likely more
        today.

        Bottom Line. We don’t see it, We don’t give it a thought.

      • nightcreature3

        Not a problem. The direct heat from the e-cat can be used to preheat material going into the furnace. Then secondary heating takes over, and this too can be derived from the e-cat. If the second stage heating can be electrically driven, then the source is an e-cat generator. If it needs to be chemical, those chemicals can be synthesised with the help of an e-cat.

    • Paul

      I agree, probably Cherokee created a big fund to raise money, because it’s their job. They have already created funds of about 1 million dollars. The industrial partner could be GE, B&W, Carrier Enterprise or something like that. I bet on the last, because Watsco Inc is based in Florida, near Rossi’s residence, perhaps was contacted for distributing domestic E-Cats and put him in contact with The Home Depot. Later, their joint venture with Carrier, i.e. Carrier Enterprise LLC, could be entered on the scene. Their headquarters are in North Carolina, very near to the Triangle where Cherokee has big influence and contacts. So you only need to join the new dots. Rossi said, I report his words from your previous article http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/05/rossi-on-the-need-for-a-partner/comment-page-1/: Our US Partner is a Carrier, like the Enterprise. Previously he had said, I cite his words written on Jonp: …and now we are no more a small armed boat, as we were, but a Carrier. Can you draw the lines now?

      • Omega Z

        I still believe that to be a metaphor because he used similar terms prior to the Partner. Regardless, I Hope it’s a Large concern. It would be quicker to market.

        • Paul

          No, he had never used these exact terms, i.e. carrier and enterprise, before his public announce of having a new partner. In the phrase “and now we are no more a small armed boat, as we were, but a Carrier”, in which he announce the new partner, it is the first time he use the word carrier. I have provide the sources. If you have a proof of what you say we wait for it. Good luck!

      • Pedro

        B&W have a large picture of the Enterprise on their website’s home page. Different dot in a different direction. And if you dig you find also some Siemens dots. So let’s wait and see. Time will tell.

        • GreenWin

          I doubt very much that AR would want to partner with a company deeply embroiled in fission-based energy. They cannot see past the rather massive stranded asset write downs that will be coming when markets reckon with LENR impact.

      • ecatworld

        Rossi’s has made comments backing off domestic uses of the E-Cat for a long time, saying that the E-Cat is only certified for industrial installations.– e.g. “The domestic E-Cat will need time to make up strong statistics by means of the industrial plants: after thousands of industrial plants will be in operation safely, the safety certification og the domestic E-Cat will be viable, I suppose.”

        To me, Rossi partnering with an HVAC distribution company like Carrier Enterprises or Watsco doesn’t really seem to fit, since HVAC is used primarily in residential and commercial settings.

        • Paul

          Yes, but if you remember he started in the preorders of the domestic units because he wanted to start selling them. Later, obstacles with the safety certification have forced to change priorities, and then he wrote phrases like you cited. So, it is plausible that in the first phase he was in contact with distributors. He cited on Jonp The Home Depot, you can check.

      • bachcole

        Certainly very appealing data points.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Agreed, good post. I think we are back to GE and/or DEKA.

  • bachcole

    Am I right, do I understand this correctly, isn’t this another dot that connects Rossi-Cherokee-Darden-China?

  • NT

    Wonderful connection Frank, another good reason(s) to go E-Cat…