Help Needed with German Translation of E-Cat Program (Tesla Motors Connection?)

I came across the following video today which is a recording of a German radio show called CROPfm.This episode is called “E-Kat und Kalte Fusion”, and is a discussion about cold fusion and the E-Cat with a Doctor Gunter Kreig and Hartmut Dobler, managing director of E-CAT Deutschland GmbH.

I am not able to understand much of this at all, and am wondering if some of the German speakers here could help provide a summary of the content.

Many thanks to Pekka Janhunen who wrote:

“I listened most of it, although my ability to understand German is limited. Most of the stuff sounded familiar. As a new revelation(?), they claimed at 1:01:10 that Tesla Motors is looking into E-cats as possible energy source for their cars.”

It would certainly be an interesting development if Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk is paying attention to the E-Cat — he’s one of the influential industrialists out there, and any endorsement from him could be far-reaching in terms of bringing the E-Cat into the public consciousness.

The Youtube recording is below.

  • if the chinese confirm Emdrive again, it is possible…

    Problem is that unlike LENR, theory of EMDrive seems really impossible…

    I’m puzzled by the confirmation by Chinese team… It can only be a fraud given the testing protocol. But fraud is hard to swallow too… Fraud is an easy wildcard excuse, especially with serious looking people having a background, and yang Juan pursuing communication at iac13.


    • bachcole

      AlainCo, your puzzlement is the result of the soft evidence conflicting with theory. Gee, that sounds familiar.

      • Emdrive is a harder problem than LENR.
        Theory about LENR says simply nothing, and all claim that it is impossible are simply incompetence in lattice QM.
        Evidence about LENr are much stronger since there was even at the beginning years, dozens of replications and few phenomenons.

        For Emdrive, simple principle of symmetry (momentum conservation is linked to gauge symmetry) , on which all physics is based, seems (I’m not competent to be sure) to say Emdrive is impossible.$

        The tests of Emdrive are not enough replicated to be sure, but a third party test by yang Juan seems supporting it’s reality…

        the common point is that to solve that puzzlement in both case you have to face physicists, or accuse people of frauds.

        I won’t bet my money on any of those hypothesis, not even against EmDrive.
        If I’m forced to bet, I would sadly bet against EmDrive.

        • bachcole

          Yeah, but you are the guy that told me that homeopathy is not real when I have been using it quite successfully for the past 44 years. So, I am wondering why those Chinese are saying that the Emdrive is real when they have nothing to gain by saying so. (Understand that today is the very first time I have ever heard of the Emdrive and I don’t know much.) I am defending experience over theory.

  • barty

    The radio channel is an amateur internet radio channel.

    Also the physicist “Gunter Kreig” (never heard of him in germany) doesn’t sound very professional.
    The mention of tesla motors show’s that, because he says something like “mister tesla is also interested in the ecat”. Yes, of course, “mister tesla”…
    This guy doesn’t even know elon musk!?

    Don’t read to much out of this crappy interview!
    These guys only repeat statements we already heard, and mixed them with their own oppinions and wishful thoughts.

    • AB

      Agreed, this interview is boring. The comment about Elon Musk doesn’t sound reliable either. I hope we get some real new and interesting information soon.

    • V.p.S.

      In times where expectations are growing, the potential of the technology remains enourmous and reliable information is near to zero it is very human to transform own excitement into speculative statements like those in this interview.

    • guga

      I mostly agree. The only interesting thing was that they (?) obviously participated in the 1 MW Ecat test in Italy? Their qualification could be better. But at least it is nice to hear from somebody who did his own measurements on the Ecat and who we haven´t heard from before.

  • Adam Lepczak

    We are at the dawn of the LENR based economy. I imagine that eventually we will be able to scale Ecats down to a AAA batteries that produce current for years. Analogically to transistor development.

    • SiriusMan

      I agree with this. I do not think it is worthwhile to spend time calculating whether the hot-cat can run a Tesla vehicle etc.

      Anything Rossi could hand-build in his workshop is going to look ridiculously primitive compared to what will eventuate once the technology matures. Have you seen a photo of the first transistor (Bell Labs 1947)? Now compare that to a modern CPU.

      The most important thing the LENR community can do is raise awareness that the phenomenon actually exists.The fear/greed motive in people will then kick in and push innovation forward very rapidly after that….

      • bachcole

        It might be fun to calculate the difference in size between that first transistor and our current transistors. Probably a million to one or more. I don’t think that LENR+ will be able to do that, but it should be a good lesson in us not knowing just how small and how powerful LENR+ can get.

  • bitplayer

    Since we’re dabbling in Elon Musk/SpaceX speculation

    Go to the moon, get ice, and then…

    “Since the mission velocity to escape the lunar gravity is about 2600 m/s, the optimum exhaust velocity is about 1730 m/s. This would imply a rocket specific impulse of about 175 seconds. A steam rocket with mixed mean outlet temperature of about 800 Kelvin would provide this performance.”

    Since the HotCat runs at upwards of 800C = ~1042K, I think we have a winner.

    The rest of the article spells out the entire system of operation. In summary, water mined from lunar ice is hauled up to a transfer station in lunar orbit. That become the gas station for getting to Mars, comets, aqueous asteroids, Europa and other sources of H2O.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      However, like any nuclear thermal rocket this would require quite high power density E-monster which is also swiftly controllable. Instead of doing this, why wouldn’t one just turn the mined water into LH2 and LOX using electrolysis and cryocooling and burn them in ordinary rocket engine. In that case one would need only low and continuous electric power producing E-tiger on the moon.

  • Mauzen

    Im a native german. If I find some time I can translate the whole interview, or at least the main aspects.

    • ecatworld

      Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks so much.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Any news on Defkalion, where are they now?

  • malkom700

    It is not clear why the public interest especially on small devices. Large equipment ECAT can solve all our problems, as electricity drives everything.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      True. Also, 1 MW scale is already small enough that it can make most of the power grid unnecessary since only very local transfer of electric power is needed. And even if home units would work perfectly and be certified, it still wouldn’t be clear if using them would be practical in many cases such as small apartments (space limitations; how to arrange heat rejection; noise…) if one wants to make electricity and not only heat.

      • Omega Z

        Peoples Perceptions of the E-cat don’t fit well with Reality.
        It’s not a little Black Box Plug-N-Play. Not even for heating.
        Anything even close to perceptions is likely a decade or 2 away After it comes to market. Many other technologies need greatly improved or created from scratch. All takes much time.

        My best guess for Economical deployment would be locally positioned Power plants at city edges. With commercial/Industrial facilities close by that could make use of the excess heat., Whether for heat related processes or Absorption chillers.

        It may be much better suited for many European cities. In the U.S. We have many communities with neighborhoods that sprawl with winding streets & open spaces, which tho scenic & pleasant, Aren’t Economical for distributed heating & cooling by underground piping. Cheap Energy suddenly becomes expensive if most of it is wasted or the infrastructure is cost prohibitive.

        • US_Citizen71

          The waste heat in the US could go to reprocessing waste into CH4, ethanol or other fuels to generate electricity or power vehicles. We have plenty of sewage, yard waste and trash in suburban areas that could be turned into fuels with the application of heat and catalysts.

      • bachcole

        Just how much energy as a society do we lose because we transmit energy great distances to the end user?

      • malkom700

        Indeed, the power grid is not suitable for all needs. There are also economic considerations. But for certain needs is ideal, now .

  • dickyaesta

    I believe it was Dr.Günter Krieg who was speculating on putting Ecat in a Tesla Car,”.. It could be done as a Ecat produces about 10 Kwh of energy to run a car ..” he is saying, but then I am not completely sure, because I fell asleep during this 1:15 hour long interview, being 7 am here and listening to three monotone germans talking.

    One thing that did come across loud and clear Dr.Günter Krieg is a firm believer in LENR and Ecat’s and he is originally a ‘physiker’ (fest körper physiker)-physicist that did research after he (früh)retired from his work with IBM (about 25 years ago) Hartmut Dobler is director of E-CAT Deutschland GmbH

    Always good to hear a physicist talking about his believe in LENR. Sorry Frank I am not good enough in german to make a literal translation, but he does try to explain a theory behind the Ecats. He speaks of ‘schwache kernkraft’ (Weak nuclear Reaction) for LENR 16:40, next to’ starke kernkraft’ (Strong Nuclear Reaction/ fission, fusion).

    I am trying to listen more awake now again to this radio interview: From 29:00 his Idea, his theory: ” …Ferro magnetism in Nickel vs non ferro magnetism in copper therefore not only energy comes from the transmutation of nickel into copper ‘and back’ (my thought), net result hardly any copper in the final ashes.

    But also this difference in magnetismes work to get ‘or concentrate, like a mirror or lens’ (my thought again) energy from this process.(schwache kernkraft/LENR)… “, For me, this difference in magnetism seems to add a new element towards more theoretical understanding of LENR.

    Then at 1:01 the ‘famous’ Tesla motors link as I said before it was speculating from the part of Dr, Krieg.

    I do like the word ‘Schwache Kernkraft’, better then LENR. It seems to say exactly what Low Energy Nuclear Reaction says in four words and then to make it easier, translates into a four letter word (sorry for the pun, but I could not resist).

    Happy holidays.

    • Fortyniner

      Thanks Dickyaesta for extracting the core info for us. Theoretical explanations of LENR may be useful, but people like Dr Krieg are operating with the major disadvantage of not having access to any 1st hand data, which would help them refine their ideas. The importance of this broadcast interview probably depends on whether Dr Krieg is a working scientist, or retired/semi-retired as the comments seem to indicate, and who listens to ‘CROPfm’.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      I agree: if weak nuclear force would be a free term, it might be a good substitute for LENR which has the drawback of being an English acronym and therefore untranslatable to other languages. However, the weak nuclear force is not a free term because it has a precise meaning in physics. It’s far from certain (and in my opinion unlikely) that the weak force would be the explanation of LENR. Associating the strong force with known nuclear energy (fission and fusion) and the weak force with LENR might be an attractive thought, but I’m not aware of any experimental or theoretical facts that would support such proposition. The weak force is responsible for beta radioactivity while there is no solid evidence that LENR devices would emit beta.

      • dickyaesta

        Thanks Pekka, for your thoughts on this. It seemed to me to sound right, but than I am not a physicist, only try to give a bit of an insight of what he, Günter Krieg, is saying. To me he is only putting LENR in the ‘realm’ of Swache Kernkraft opposed to fusion in the Strong nuclear force.

        But what he did say that seemed important to me is the diference of ferromagnetism in nickel vs the nonferro magnetism in copper which somehow is part of the whole process of LENR, he himself, Günter Krieg, admits later on that he doen’t know what percentage of this magnetism plays a part in the procees of cold fusion.

        And thanks also to you Fortyniner, he, Günter Krieg, seemed to be a (früh)retired scientist (retired before 65) with a hobby of Cold fusion, as he says himself in the interview, but then again it helps if he at least has more than a working knowledge of the process, being a physicist, I was more or less waiting for him to reveal he has been following ECW all the time.

        Merry christmas and a happy and prosperous New Year to the two of you and to the rest of you, especially to Frank for his ever trying to keep alive this very valuable place in a still very dark place we live in. Any light is very welcome indeed.

        • ecatworld

          Thanks very much, Dickyaesta — same to you!

  • Pekka Janhunen

    AR has written e.g. “The CEO of one of the most important car manufacturing company of the
    world told me that the certification process to apply our technology to
    cars or trucks can last up to 20 years…” (April 19th, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Maybe indeed the rumour is true, in the sense that maybe Musk checked what Rossi had and concluded that it was not yet ready for his cars, but is aware and keeps watching. Also Gunter Krieg, when asked, didn’t know what’s happening at the moment or if anything came out of it.

    • Private Citizen

      If the tech proves real, then it would be time to replace any elected govt. person who did not sign the immediate certification pledge.

      • kdk

        Eheh, long overdue for house cleaning anyway. Both Democrats and Republicans have been getting their pockets lined by the same people for decades. They write the laws with loopholes and then go consulting for companies showing them how to exploit the loopholes. My guess is that this is the same across the western world and most of the rest.

  • V.p.S.

    The way Tesla Motors was mentioned in this interview sounds very much like a rumor created somewhere in the space of the World Wide Web. I would assume that somebody wrote email to Elon Musk about E-Cat and he actually responded that he was aware of it would like to see it installed in electric cars some time in the future as soon as the technology would mature. This was enough for somebody to assume that Tesla is seriously considering E-Cats as energy source. Well, you never know it exactly with Mr. Musk, but even with him the current state of E-Cat development is just too early to be applied in electric cars and Tesla Motors cannot afford massive R&D investments required to create new science and make it usable in the industry. But they will be there when the thing comes out.

    • GreenWin

      Tesla’s only play near term is to install a single MW plant at the assembly facility in California. The 300kW electrical and excess steam could supplement the manufacturing process. Good way to test LENR without reinventing their very remarkable car.

      • V.p.S.

        Fully agree, but there are also at least several dozens of other large manufacturers that would probably like to do the same as soon as the the plant would be available on the market and they could inspect and test it. But it is currently not the case and nobody knows when it will happen. So Tesla is not any better off than other players. And talks about Tesla Motors looking into E-Cats installed in electric cars are very much based on a wishful thinking so far.

  • cx

    This is kind of hard to believe or at least hard to believe tesla would want this to come out like this. But dam it would be great if true.

    • Omega Z

      Considering the projects that Musk is involved in & Ideas promoted, Not so hard to believe. He is a forward looking Individual. Good for Him…

  • HHiram

    I would be VERY surprised if Musk would be interested in using E-Cats to generate electricity *inside* the car. Probably this would be less efficient than using E-Cats in large power stations to generate electricity. If Tesla were going to partner with Rossi, if would likely be to create a new type of large scale power plant to supplement (or replace?) Tesla’s existing interests in solar power plants.

    • bachcole

      Clearly LENR+ is not even close to being practical in a car. A large bus perhaps. But eventually . . . . . .

      • hum, I disagree.
        to recahrge a car you need more than 10kWe, this more than 30-50kWth…
        if you see hyperion core, there is no problem to fit 50lWth in free space of an e-car, especially if you remove half of batteries.
        the turbines can be made compact, even if today very expensive (2000$/kW)

        however discussing with an engine expert he told me that in mass production a rankine engine could be about 1000$ for 50kWmech peak

        • Fortyniner

          I assume that the cost quoted would be just the Cyclone-type unit (or MYT engine etc)? To that would need to be added the various ancilliaries – boiler, condenser, pumps, generator and heat ejection equipment, plus control systems, wheel motors/regen. braking system, and remaining batteries. Other problems might include potential flammability of the working fluid and disposal of heat when stationary/garaged.

          Fitting all this into a small car could be a challenge, but would probably be possible. However the cost would need to compete with other emerging automobile technologies such as fuel cells, synthetic IC fuels, better batteries and so on.

          • Warthog

            Two words—-Stanley Steamer. And during the early days of the environmental movement, serious attention was given to “external combustion” cars. The only change with the E-cat would be a different heat source.

            • Omega Z

              E-cat still requires Electricity. Still need batteries & charging stations or install on board all necessities to generate it’s own. E-cat cars are long down the road. The technology just isn’t ready.

              • ecatworld

                I wonder if Musk would ever be interested in having E-Cats powering the supercharging stations that Tesla Motors has in various places.

              • bachcole

                But just wait until society accepts LENR+ as an undeniable, proven fact. The technology will get ready so fast!!!!

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Ecat in a car would be a difficult thing right now. I got the impression that an ecat would not like all the shaking and rattling that occurs under the hood. It’s probably works best (only?) in a stable environment.

            • bachcole

              I can see how the dust getting shaken up might be helpful. Otherwise, I agree with you.

  • Mimimi

    I didnt see or hear the show, but the description of this show ( tells, that the guests are guys called Dr. rer.nat. Günter Krieg / Hartmut Dobler, and not Elon Musk.

    The host, on the other hand, is called Tarek Al-Ubaidi.

  • Daniel Maris

    I’d love to see Musk-Rossi hook up…I couldn’t think of anything better!

  • Ivone

    If it is Elon Musk, then things are going to be very
    exciting, for he is the builder of the world’s heaviest man carrying
    rockets. If he is happy with cold fusion
    for his cars, it won’t be long before he builds cold fusion rockets. The settlement of Mars suddenly looks near
    term and practical.

    • bachcole

      And I guarantee that “colonizing” Mars will quickly become the least sought after posting in the whole of science, significantly less popular than “colonizing” Antarctica. And how is “colonizing” Antarctica going? Death skulks around mere feet from the door.

      I suppose LENR will help. Crushing loneliness won’t help much. “Only happy couples need apply.” The “oh, gee, whiz, wow” factor doesn’t last very long.

      • US_Citizen71

        We need to leave this planet and spread our seed to other worlds, to insure the survival of the species. We are one large asteroid impact away from oblivion. Looking at the moon and a topographical map of the Earth it is easy to see the truth in this.

        • Omega Z

          LENR Energy & 3-D printing machines.
          Just send the Mar-Cat 3-D printers a few years in advance.
          Your Space port & Apartment are move in ready. 🙂

        • Pekka Janhunen

          US71: much agreed. Although the E-cat perhaps doesn’t make a big difference in space propulsion and satellites, it’s almost enabling tech for operating on the surfaces of Moon and Mars where solar power is not available when most needed. The knowledge of the existence of the E-cat, once there, might even improve the rocketry business case for Musk and others to conquer the red planet.

      • bitplayer

        Why limit the view to “postings in science”? 200,000 people have already signed up for what looks like a pretty spartan one way trip:

        Science fi(predic)tion writers have covered this and many other scenarios. If you consider the decidedly odd head-spaces that people work themselves (or are born) into here on Earth, it shouldn’t be surprising that there would be the usual long-tail 100Ks who would be eager to give Mars a try.

        • bachcole

          They may give Mars a try; in fact, I am sure that many of them will. But, I absolutely, positively guarantee that 99.9% will be clamoring to come back within 4 months. And, of course, they won’t be able to come back. Mars makes northern Canada look like Paradise, and I don’t see people rushing to colonize northern Canada.

          But, of course, northern Canada doesn’t have the novelty or scientific attraction of Mars. But novelty will wear out very quickly when the temperature at night drops to -225 degrees F (-153 degrees C) and the wind kicks up a sandstorm that would shame the Gobi Desert and that lasts for months. And water is scarcer than in the Atacama desert. A few scientists might want to go there and stay for a while, but colonists, they won’t stay for very long.

          I figure that most of those 200,000 have let the novelty factor and desire for fame and scientific curiosity and excitement cloud their judgment. Northern Canada has enormous economic incentives for colonization, but we still have to pay absurdly high salaries to get people to go there and work. And 99% of them leave once they have made their fortunes. And then they come back to normalcy telling their children how freaking cold it was in northern Canada that their spit literally froze before it hit the ground. And the lowest temperature ever recorded in Canada: a mere -81.4 F (-63 C). And there is plenty of water, oil, diamonds etc. in northern Canada.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            bachcole: the point about Mars is to have some eggs outside Earth-basket in case the worst happens, a backup of life and mankind. You are right, though, that the conditions on Mars aren’t exactly friendly and that some people might underestimate the difficulties, and also that ideology mostly doesn’t carry very long if conditions turn harsh. However, with proper equipment the conditions can be handled. The weak gravity (38% of earth) is a question mark: what are its long term effects.

            • bachcole

              Obviously people will be living in domes. And obviously it would be good to have more than one nest for humanity. And obviously living in a dome will get old.

              The gravity, that will be a problem also. I didn’t realize that it was so much lower: 38%. There are also “cosmic” rays, extremely fast sub-atomic particles that the very weak atmosphere and non-existent magnetosphere will not protect people from. (excuse my grammar) The domes will have to be specially built to protect people, animals, and plants from these particles. But the problem of gravity just won’t go away. A person who exercised most vigorously may not even be breaking even. And I don’t believe in some pharmaceutical magic bullet that has negative side-affects.

              • Pekka Janhunen

                Roger, Roger. But one can also turn the questions around: Do we want to know if it’s possible to live on Mars for a lifetime? Yes. What is the trickiest potential long-term show-stopper? Weak gravity. What is the way to find out if it’s a show-stopper or not? Go to Mars and try. So what to do now? Hmm…

                • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

                  Agree, go there and see if it works. And should the volunteers die then we know the answer but mankind should try (dangerous) new things to evolve. I seriously doubt if earth will survive the next 100 years, though I do hope so. Right now we seem to be on at a crossroad and we may survive or fail as a race depending on the choices made today. A backup plan would not be a bad idea and only the moon and Mars seem viable.

                  I would start with colonizing the Moon though. Anybody know why the focus on Mars and not the Moon?

                • bachcole

                  The motivation to go to Mars rather than the Moon has to be national prestige. Practically speaking, going to Mars next doesn’t make any sense. But since the Chinese just landed a robotic thingie on the Moon, the Moon is oh so 1960ish.

                • Pekka Janhunen

                  The Moon has some resource challenges: it may be difficult to find some necessary elements of life such as nitrogen, carbon and hydrogen. Also, Moon’s gravity is only 1/6 of Earth’s. Free space stations with artificial gravity and fed by asteroid resources might be a better option than the Moon.

                • bachcole

                  Pekka, I will be incredibly happy to see human beings fly to Mars for all of the reasons that you mentioned and for pride of accomplishment. I just want to dampen people’s enthusiasm with the waters of practicality and balance, particularly when it comes to colonization.

                  And that gravity problem just won’t go away.