E-Cat Changed ‘A Lot’ [Update: Team of 16, Testing 'Modules and Plants']

It’s going to be interesting to find out what E-Cats have developed into after this quiet period is over. A reader on the JONP has asked Rossi how much the E-Cats have changed since R&D started in the USA.


Rossi replied:

A lot. We made a very hard work, I would say about 10,000 hours of man hours work, made by scientists, engineers and workers. I am understanding what does mean to play in the Majors. When I need something that exists I get it in hours, if not minutes, when I need something that does not exist we invent it and make it in days, if not hours. I never have worked so well in my life, honestly.

It does sound like he’s in an inventor’s heaven. No details of course, on how the E-Cat has changed. Their goal will be to make it more efficient, safer, more stable, smaller, easier to mass manufacture, etc., and his current situation allows this development to happen much faster than when he was working alone.

I would only expect this process to accelerate, especially if they have commercial success which would allow for the expansion of R&D work, and I can’t see Rossi quitting his work until he gets to a point where he physically can’t do it any longer.

UPDATE: Here’s a new comment from Rossi in response to a question about the number of people on his team, and whether they were testing E-Cat modules or also plants:

Erwin Hergenroether:
The team is complex, because we have specialists for different fields, so many persons contribute to the work; combining scientists, engineers and workers 16 persons are working for the R&D and the validation in progress, so far, for the E-Cats.
We are testing modules and plants.
Warm Regards,
A.R.


  • Fortyniner

    I think that’s exactly the kind of limited reductionist thinking that Roger is referring to. There is an ‘effect’ that is widely supported anecdotally and by some limited studies, and which appears to have some efficacy even on animals, which would presumably not be subject to placebo reactions (unless of course their owners are affecting them – something that would be at least as interesting as homeopathy). As an ex-researcher (microbial genetics) it offends against what I think I know too, but to dismiss good evidence on the basis of an assumption of omniscience would in itself be unscientific.

    “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
    Shakespeare – Hamlet

    • GreenWin

      The reductionists appear to be on the run these days. Since they accept that even our loftiest hard science can explain only 4% of the “known” universe, that leaves Newton, Darwin, Einstein, Bohr, Maxwell etc. etc. 96% in the dark.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    The partner is either DEKA or GE. I hope it is GE, DEKA is very hard to invest in. Agree or disagree?

    • artefact

      Maybe it is Vattenfall if he sees “Vattenfall International AB” as a US company.
      In Miami, 11 miles from Miami Beach.

      “Vattenfall International AB is located in Miami, FL. The company is categorized under the Turbine and Turbine Generator Set Units Manufacturing industry. This industry comprises establishments primarily engaged in manufacturing turbines (except aircraft); and complete turbine generator set units, such as steam, hydraulic, gas, and wind.”

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        You might be right, but I don’t think Vattenfall is a major research company, Rossi is describing a company dedicated to research and development.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Deka is a small company (400 engineers according to wpedia) and GE is very large. Can you reveal why you think that exactly these two companies are the candidates?

      When reading Deka’s profile on wpedia, it seems to fit well with Rossi. But so could many other companies. If it’s Deka then it’s too inventors put together. At first hearing (and without knowing the other one) it wouldn’t sound like a match made in heaven.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Sorry I meant two inventors, not too. Perhaps Freudian lapse..

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Kamen is very much a generalist, he has his fingers in a lot of pots, Rossi is not, much of his work has been in Energy, I think they would get along great, Rossi is content to be in the lab.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          I don’t see why you couldn’t be right. If it turns out that you are, it’s great intuition since the number of Deka-sized companies is large. I must confess that I wasn’t aware of it earlier, probably it’s more well known domestically. Anyway, one thing which might favour your proposal is that Rossi sometimes used personal language of the partner, I got the impression that he almost equated the company and its leader in his mind. That should fit well with Deka while it doesn’t fit well with the majority of companies.

          Deka’s Career opportunities list relates mostly to medical and software so no direct support for their AR-involvement there.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Rossi referred to drinking “coke” referring to DEKA’s relation to Coke and said the President prepared an e-cat and it worked perfectly. Something I think Kamen would want to do. Of course, GE has a research company that fits the bill too, with unlimited resources. DEKA has been strong in medical research but developed Segway and other non medical products. DEKA headquartered in New Hampshire, Rossi also worked in New Hampshire, Manchester is a very small (relatively) place. Kamen and Rossi both have a strong responsibility to improve society in general

            • Fortyniner

              Kamen would have the personal competence to replicate the e-cat, and would fit the bill as an apparently philanthropic partner sharing Rossi’s aspirations for the Ni-H technology. It’s very difficult to see GE in this role. However if it turns out that DEKA is the partner, I for one will be disappointed. It will require a much larger corporate player to roll this technology out, against the opposition that will attempt to acquire it for themselves or stop it if they can’t (primarily, the nuclear industry I would predict).

              • Bernie Koppenhofer

                I agree, the partner, if DEKA, would need a larger partner. (:

              • GreenWin

                Keep in mind the very interesting partnership Deka has with NRG Energy – now a $10B annual revenue company dedicated to distributed energy of all sorts. It looks fairly clear that Elforsk/Vattenfall ($22B) will become or already is a test bed for some form of E-Cat.

                • Fortyniner

                  If we run with this idea (just for the sake of some fun speculation), then there seems to be a good chance that Dean Kamen’s primary interest in e-cat might be as a potential power source for his ‘slingshot’ water purifier. At the moment he sees his purifiers as being powered in remote areas by electricity produced by a Stirling engine/generator fuelled by locally available combustible materials, but he must be aware that such materials are valuable commodities in themselves in such areas. Kerosene (paraffin) for example is needed for lighting, and dried dung, twigs and so on are used to fire cooking ovens.

                  This means that in effect, recipients of the machines will at present need to decide between clean water and these other uses of meagre resources, and cooking and lighting might well win out. Small e-cats would change this picture entirely, and could have attracted Kamen into the picture. However for all the reasons rehearsed in previous threads, small ‘domestic’ heaters (assuming they are technically feasible) seem unlikely to emerge at present.

                  So if DEKA are involved, I would expect them to act only in an intermediary, perhaps leading to an association with NRG Energy or some similar organisation, as they are not in a position to develop industrial scale CF, or to roll it out against inevitable opposition. If this is i fact the position, I would be very concerned, as I said before. It really will need the likes of GE, Siemens, possibly Vattenfall etc. to take things forward at speed, and anything less will probably lead to great delays in the open industrialisation of cold fusion.

                • GreenWin

                  And then there is this remarkable device from NASA GRC via a new micro-CHP startup: http://www.nirvana-es.com/technology.html

                • Alain Samoun

                  Any idea how much this micro-CHP costs?

                • Bernie Koppenhofer

                  Great observation Greenwin, here is a good article and interview with NRG’s David Crane

                  http://m.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/11/who-will-compete-with-energy-companies-in-the-future-apple-comcast-and-you/281109/

          • BroKeeper

            In past posts (just Google “E-Cat World” and “DEKA”) many contributors here discussed the compatabilities between the two.

            • Pekka Janhunen

              Thanks, I had missed it. Now I looked them up.

    • Nixter

      In a video made in 2009 -2010, (I don’t have the link, it is on YouTube, I have seen it.), Professor Sergio Focardi said that Dr. Rossi had been working with the US Naval Research Labs. I believe that statement was not authorized by Dr. Rossi, he probably was not supposed to disclose the name of the institution involved. Based on that information, GE is a prime candidate for becoming involved, based on their, (GE’s) long term partnership with the NRL, (US Naval Research Labs). The two companies have been working closely together since the early 1900′s. GE is a Prime mover within the defense industry, especially when considering Naval matters. If the NRL were to suggest a partner for Rossi to work with, it would almost certainly be a Company from within the United States and likely a company involved with the Military-Industrial Complex. My premise is that if Rossi were referred to a Company by the US Naval Research Labs, GE would be at the top of that list.

      A PDF of the NRL’s History can be seen here; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CFwQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrl.navy.mil%2Fcontent_images%2Fhorizon.pdf&ei=ZYS0Upu-IMmf2QWTq4BQ&usg=AFQjCNGsKg-F1vBSXTRToaR_g4x9UnptSQ&sig2=Uy0-bJ7lh2FM0FN2NbRT3w

      Official NRL site here; http://www.nrl.navy.mil/about-nrl/mission/

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Good find, thanks

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    sounds like Rossi is having a good time. Good for him.

  • Anon

    So Rossi has 16 people working full time on his Ecat.

    He had at least 7 professors, plus Rossi, plus his labtech when Levi did the Hotcat test.

    This is underwhelming me.

    • Buck

      Then you have a foolish yardstick by which to assess Rossi, the E-Cat, the Hot-Cat, or LENR.

      • bachcole

        Or any other new and/or controversial subject. You, Anon, are not an explorer. I suggest that you go back and work at your accountant’s job and let the courageous do the exploring.

        • Robyn Wyrick

          There is no need for putting people down.

          • bachcole

            I just got spanked by Robyn again. Dang! You are right; I was wrong. I edited it, Robyn. Is that better?

    • US_Citizen71

      Your comments are underwhelming to me. You react like a C student in a debate class.

  • BroKeeper

    That is awsome Barry! Thanks!!

  • Daniel Maris

    One point, an E Cat is not a particularly complex product in terms of the number of pieces. It’s not like an aircraft with hundreds of thousands of parts that all need to be co-ordinated.

    So, a team of 16 sounds about right to me. I presume it is a sophisticated control system they are working on if there is a partner who is convinced that the process itself is genuine.

    • bachcole

      Sounds right to me. Remember that Rossi and company can have anything that they want, which would include an consultant, as long as he/she is blindfolded, of course. (:->) And this “anything that they want” says something insightful.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Lockheed is a big company that believes in using small development & design teams. In WW2, when there were rumors of Germany building jet fighters, Kelly Johnson formed the famed “Skunk Works” and in 150 days developed America’s 1st jet.

    The “Skunk Works” thinks it will have a working hot fusion reactor prototype in less than 10 years. Could Lockheed be hedging their energy bets by partnering with Rossi?

    http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2578-a-look-at-the-design-process-of-aviation-innovator-clarence-kelly-johnson

    • Pedro

      hi Iggy, any news from your black horse?

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Hi Pedro, didn’t understand your question at first. Yes, my inventor friend suffered a setback. When I last spoke to him he was having trouble with replication. He was still confident but was having to go back and figure out what was different in his initial (successful) experiment. I’m trying to hold off on bothering him while he’s so busy.

        • Pedro

          Thanks for the update! Please keep us posted when there are any new developments.

  • Omega Z

    10K man hours.This appears to be an off the top of your head response. Rossi is telling you they are working very hard on the Issue’s. One of Rossi’s posts stated that time slips away from him. I Hope everyone understands the meaning here. It’s also why setting time frames is a bad practice. Especially when so many take it as gospel. Time frames can easily slip.

    Rossi has also said about a Dozen are directly involved, Likely divided into groups to study different aspects. (Core design efficiency comparisons, Ash analysis, Etc) Likely others not included who have minimal involvement. GoFors. Get this, Do that, Order this. Etc… Standard Business OPS personnel. Those Rossi probably wouldn’t include.

    Rossi has also mentioned that they leave at night & the Cats run unattended. So their apparently very stable. The Computer alerts them to any problem. Maybe a Robo call system? Maybe a watchmen?

    A large portion of whats involved is Data Acquisition. All monitored by Computer. I would compare it to watching a patient on a Heart Monitor. 100′s of hours of hum drum. Only the Blips would be of real interest.

    The Computer would even alert you to irregularities. Tech’s would Analyze only what happens just prior to, During & after a blip.

    As to the Number of people involved: Only a limited number of areas to study & only a limited number of people needed to study each.

    Such as analyzing data about the Fuel/Charge at different run Intervals. The Ash… If I & a couple others were involved/assigned with this task, “WE” would have to be involved in all this analysis in order to maintain continuity. This only requires a few people. More is not necessarily better.(NOTE at end of post)

    You may have another team studying the Data from different core configurations & different outcomes & another group looking at how this would effect production costs(The Trade Offs).
    Others studying the Control Mechanisms (RF/Magnetic/Heat triggering) Each Area would only require a few experts in their field of expertize. And All would likely have Outside access to others in the field for additional input without exposing what they are actually involved with.

    I can see many hours involved in Group meetings Sharing their Knowledge/findings in serious Brain Storming sessions determining which direction(s) to follow up on & What Not too. A Mere Dozen Experts in multiple disciplines would be more then enough to move this research forward at a fast pace. Maybe more so then having to many.
    You don’t need carpenters & Cabinet makers on the premises until the Foundation of the House is built.
    Also the More people Involved, The More likely unauthorized information is to leak out.

    NOTE: Years ago, a Computer company developed an Entirely new, near flawless Operating system in record time. Only 1 glitch. In the Time/Date system. Erroneous input caused it to crash. Ready for production & wanting the system in ROM’s, they appointed 2 teams to fix this- ASAP. 1st team immediately saw the problem of input masking & fixed it Immediately. The 2nd team inadvertently/unknowingly obtained the fixed code. Finding nothing wrong, assumed it was a hardware flaw, thus changed the code as a fix re-implementing the previous Masking error. 100K machines were shipped before this was discovered.

  • Roger Bird

    You’all should know that the Tee You Are Dee that runs Wickedpedia has openly and proudly said that he is going to try to help destroy homeopathy. Now, some of you don’t believe me when I say that homeopathy works. But an objective appraisal of the ***situation*** {hundreds of millions of people believe that homeopathy is real, and thousands believe that LENR is real} tells me that it is likely that the aforementioned POS is giving the same treatment to LENR as he is to homeopathy. Both fields get disappeared in Wickedpedia whenever anything positive is said about them. Given these parallel disappearances and his attitude, I am positive that both disappearances go way beyond the conservative nature of encyclopedias, which was my position before I connected these three data points (his attitude, LENR boosting comments disappearing, and homeopathy boosting comments disappearing).

    • bitplayer

      H3LL has a special chamber for the people who suppress homeopathy. In it they suffer every ailment of every person that ever lived that was supposed to be treatable by conventional medicine but was not.

      Karma always wins.

      • Roger Bird

        And probably the same or similar fate should await those who knowingly oppose LENR.

        • bitplayer

          I have to add, the Wikipedia article on homeopathy seems much worse than the result of the conservatism of encyclopediasts. It’s an outright hatchet job. Pointing this back toward LENR, this is a chilling example of how “reality” is shaped by the people who control the media. I’ve never felt closer to Orwell’s 1984 in my life.

    • Daniel Maris

      The mother of the present Queen in the UK lived to 101 on it and the present Queen – also a user of homeopathic remedies – seems to be doing pretty well for her age.

      • Roger Bird

        And Queen Victoria had the longest reign of any British Monarch, so far: Liz is catching up to her. And both Liz and Vicky supported homeopathy grandly, and bless their hearts for it. Personal observation (and pain relief) is a powerful incentive to believe. And the personal observations of hundreds of millions of people should soften the skepticism of anyone, even if there IS NO physical substance left. Materialism does not disprove homeopathy; homeopathy disproves materialism.

  • Reboot

    We need LENR right now. In Spain we are going to pay the most expensive electricity in the world.

    • Roger Bird

      Not as bad as parts of Mongolia where the price of electricity is $infinite. Please stop whining and enjoy the process. (:->)

    • Fortyniner

      It may seem that way, but there are several other countries ahead of Spain according to this…

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25200808

      • GreenWin

        Germany is embroiled in a currency conflict. A year ago they demanded the Fed Reserve Bank in NY return 400 tons of their gold. Fed refused. Fed is wary of any transition from petrodollars to different currency, like gold. Germany alienated the nuclear cabal by terminating fission power plants. Additionally the German feed-in tariffs subsidizing PV energy have raised electric rates greatly.

        However, with the rooftop solar infrastructure growing, Germany is in a good position to adopt new, Distributed Energy Resources. The next generation of DERs include micro-CHP energy appliances like the Beacon10 gas/solar, the Whispergen Stirling , and fuel cell systems from Bosch, Panasonic and ClearEdge. http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/news-events/news-archive/2012/april/germany-introduces-capital-subsidy-for-micro-chp-products,-including-fuel-cells

        • Roger Bird

          The Fed not giving to Germany their gold sounds exactly like theft to me.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Gold plated tungsten. Gold and tungsten have essentially the
            density.

            http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1760183/pg1

            ussion…

            • Alan DeAngelis

              Gold and tungsten have essentially the same density.

              Tungsten 19.25 g·cm−3
              Gold 19.30 g·cm−3

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            They can’t give them something they don’t have. They can give them dollars but Germany does not want dollars. What does that tell you about the price of gold and the value of the dollar?

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Germany is betting on conservation/efficiency, cogeneration and technology. I think their bet gutsy and right.

      • Reboot

        Those are old numbers. Since 2010 electricity bill has been raised more than a 30% in Spain. Now only Ireland and cyprus pay [just] a bit more.

  • Bob

    Assuming the new partner “Started” the R&D work 6 months ago, 10,000 man hours would be 9.6 employees, working a standard 40 hour week.

    At first 10,000 seemed like a large number, but it really is not. It actually is just the opposite! Having only 10 employees working on a technology that could be much, much bigger than the iPhone, Tesla auto or 3D printing is somewhat astonishing! (A large corporation has more than 10 employees working in the janitorial staff of a large building.)

    I do not mean this as criticism, but just viewing if from that perspective, either the partner is not that large of a company or they are not really serious about pursuing this invention in earnest at the moment in time.

    Or perhaps the 10,000 hours is only the lead scientist / engineers and does not include technicians, support staff, etc.

    I do not know, but I am leaning towards the partner not being a G.E. type of company. Time will tell! (I hope)

    -Bob

    • Fortyniner

      I made the same point earlier, only I used a three months basis to come up with around 20 employees.

      I’m not sure why the comment was apparently deleted. Admin?

      • ecatworld

        Rossi has said he has three teams working at the moment — so 20 or so employees doesn’t sound unreasonable.

        (I didn’t see any post to delete, 49er)

        • Fortyniner

          Most odd – ’twas definitely there (posted around 10:30 GMT I would think)

    • Roger Bird

      9,000 hours for Rossi and 1,000 hours for one other guy. (:->)

    • BroKeeper

      I’m still betting on DEKA. Match made in the higher place (don’t want to get religious). :->)

      • ecatworld

        Don’t worry about it, BK — like I said yesterday, I don’t mind references to religion. Just not getting into arguments & debates over it.

        • BroKeeper

          Thanks Frank. May you and all the E-Cat World readers have a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
          I think AR will have a big gift under the tree soon.

      • dickyaesta

        A question if it is DEKA, why does Rossi search for Stirling engines on the open market, when Deka has one already in house: http://www.dekaresearch.com/stirling.shtml. Or is it a way to corner all of the market, by Deka. If I had a working striling engine I would hesitate to send it to Rossi, if Deka were his partner. Just a thought/question. Merry Christmas to all of you and a happy LENR come out year.

        • BroKeeper

          If Rossi is with a different partner he certainly would have considered DEKA’s sterling engine regardless. It’s not whether the E-CAT is compatible for the sterling engine it’s whether the sterling engine is compatible for the E-Cat. DEKA’s sterling engine is designed with a different set of thermal dynamic and physical parameters that the E-Cat cannot use. Probably designed for DEKA’s water purification system to run off multiple heat sources for very remote areas of the globe.

          In past posts (just Google “E-Cat” and “DEKA”) many contributors here discussed the compatibility of the two entities, many remarks (especially concerning partnership and plant starting celebrations) made by Rossi that pinpointed a company like DEKA, common interests & personalities, same patent lawyers, close residencies, etc.
          I haven’t seen a company so matched from the information at hand than DEKA. However, it would be huge if it were GE.

    • Sanjeev

      I estimate 15-20 in that team, since all need not work continuously. They don’t need a 1000 employee team yet as there is no production/support/marketing. So a team of 20 is a good sized team in my view.
      Its not logical to conclude that the partner is not big, since Rossi said he gets anything he wants in a matter of hours! Will a small co be able to do that ?
      If the partner is as big as he projects, then the Ecat will become an invention of the century and perhaps the most useful product ever built and sold. We wait….

      • BroKeeper

        16 R&D employees from what Rossi just mentioned in JoNP.

    • bitplayer

      1) Only so many people can crowd around the ball close enough to kick it.
      2) Smaller team, better security.
      3) Jobs and Wozniak, Hewlett and Packard, Gates and Allen…
      4) Large “supply closet”