Rossi: ‘Superior Powers may be Reached Easily Just Putting Modules Together’

Just after having posted that Andrea Rossi is not saying very much, he cracks the door open a tiny bit to give a glimpse into what is going on at E-Cat HQ these days. Earlier today Dr. Joseph Fine asked him a question about current dimensions of the E-Cat and power levels of current models.


Andrea Rossi answered the query with a standard, “I am sorry to repeat that in this validation and R&D Stage I cannot answer to these questions.’ Then a little while later he made this post:

Dr Joseph Fine:
I feel guilty to treat you badly…but I hope you understand that our policy is not to talk of a product that is not mature for the market, because subject to a rigorous period of validation, during which we also are refining the technology. We are collecting an enormous amount of data that shapes the technology by the day, generating patent applications by the week. Anyway:
1- We are trying many different dimensions of the modules, and the final dimensions of the industrial plants will depend on the final choice we will make, based on the results ( that, remember, could be positive, but also negative)
2- respect the numbers you cited many things can change: maybe the dimensions will be the same, maybe smaller, but nothing is still defined
3- superior powers may be reached easily just putting modules together
Let’s atart the wishes period later: allow me the illusion to have more time at disposal for my work before the end of the year…time is faster than me, damn!
Warm Regards,
A.R.

There’s not too much revealed here, but it gives a picture of what the team is working on. Point 3 is especially interesting — superior powers reached easily just by putting modules together — as it implies that they have been working on configurations in which one module feeds another with the heat needed to generate a reaction, thus increasing the overall COP of a system. This is something that many observers have thought was an obvious way to boost the efficiency of the E-Cat, and now it sounds like development of this kind of system is underway.

It’s good to have another ‘Rossi says’ to chew over :)


  • Fortyniner

    So long as there is any input from an external source, even if that is just a ‘start-up’ pulse, then COP can never be infinite unless a selective time period that excludes start-up is stipulated. These quibbles just illustrate the fact that COP is not a suitable measuring concept for cold fusion devices, any more than it is for nuclear fission reactors. The only meaningful measure is probably the cost of electricity produced this way, calculated using a ‘birth to death’ complete audit of resources (something the nuclear fission industry is very keen to avoid).

    • bachcole

      Don’t forget power density and energy density.

      • Fortyniner

        True, but assuming that both are sufficient to make a system viable, these factors only determine the physical size of the device for any given output, and how long it will run before it needs ‘refueling’. These parameters would be automatically included in a complete energy audit.

  • Omega Z

    otto 1923

    If I lived close by or still had a close friend in the Vicinity, I Would do Exactly That.

    BUT, I would Not Post it. It’s a Matter of Principle.
    It would Likely do harm or at least create inconveniences for Rossi & his partner. For what. My Personal gain, To quench your curiosity at someone else’s expense. Wont do-it..

    Another thing- I understand human nature Including My Own.
    Some people may post things that are antagonistic, And that it’s quite hard not to disclose certain knowledge in a- well did you know that???

    Soooo- I would Likely cease coming to ECW. Not Even to follow from the shadows. It is to easy to give into temptation when people post certain nonsense….

    As far as a Reporter, In the Present climate, not likely to happen nor be allowed. Taboo to report anything positive.
    However, If I were a reporter, I would make it known to certain people in the Rossi camp & that I was keeping it quiet, With Hopes of being let in/Invited to the Official announcement. Thus advancing my career in a respectable manor. Reporters with Principles get invited to events more often then those who have none.
    On a Lighter note: Rossi is Italian-
    He may have Connections of whom I may not want to meet. :)
    Deals I can’t refuse???

  • bachcole

    I’ll be happy to hire the PI as long as you are willing to pay for it.

    If Frank or some other blogger did that, they would lose access and have to deal with their consciences for having betrayed a friend.

    Anyway, we don’t even know where he is.

  • Sanjeev

    This is a very good development. A fact that shows how mainstream LENR is to those who still think that its a fringe science.

    The Japan cold fusion research society’s 14th meeting also deserves a blog post of its own. Very encouraging to see so many scientists involved in the LENR research there and sharing their findings with all. I hope Frank reads this (Currently posted somewhere in always open thread).

    Link : http://jcfrs.org/JCF14/jcf14-abstracts.pdf

    The blogposts of ECW are picked up by Google alerts regularly and such info is spread widely, thats why I think its important to cover all lenr news here, however small it is.

    • ecatworld

      Thanks, Sanjeev — just posted about it!

      • Sanjeev

        Great . Thanks.
        Btw I meant to post this comment in Dr Kim’s post, somehow I typed it here.
        So the important development I mentioned above is about Dr Kim.

  • Doktor Bob

    I interviewed the founder of X-Price, Dr Peter Diamandis and asked about Cold Fusion.
    Still need to work a bit with the material I got but I made an introduction about tho who he is and why is matters what he says:

    http://www.drboblog.com/peter-diamandis-cold-fusion/

    Did you know that finding an oil well costs several hundreds millions… sometimes even billions and even if you put all the money into it you are not guaranteed to find oil or enough oil to cover the expenses. Nevertheless those kinds of money can still be gathered from investors…

    Does not Cold Fusion hold 1000 x times more potential than one single oil well?

    I think so….

    Still the Nuclear Industry seems to be going all in on Thorium….
    Its a shame!

    • mcloki

      Thorium is still big science. Employing hundreds of thousands of support staff.

      • Doktor Bob

        Really? For what? That is an insane waste of reasources

  • Pekka Janhunen

    By the way, concerning what Rossi means by “that could be positive, but also negative”. It could mean many things, but for example it could mean that some of the reactors that they were testing failed early, didn’t start or otherwise malfunctioned. In all likelihood, they are testing more than one reactor simultaneously to get statistics and to make sure that a single error will not doom the whole 6 month testing campaign.

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      Many specilation.
      Kim is not an experimentalist as far as I have understood, but a theoretical physicist, but he have a flexible brai I imagine too…

      If I was Cyclone my first reason to hire him would be to help an existing team of LENR engineers trying to make another reactor… the title does not seems so…

      Another reason would be because he his friend/related with defkalion, as an adviser, and ambassador. also to analyse their claims… Seems possible.

      another is simply to have an expert to check claims from any LENR reactor builder… not only Defkalion…

      another could be that Cyclone and defkalion join their R&D. Possible to be related with the announce of Defkalion that they were reorganizing their R&D…

      Since long time ago i say that turbine are the key problem with LENR , beyond pure heat application.

    • Omega Z

      I agree Pekka
      He should use a different phrase. This comes across too negative when it could be as you pointed out or any number of other unexpected problems that could cause delays. Which is how I read it. Not that Excess heat isn’t produced.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Question for the group. Cyclone Power Corporation said they have added Dr. Yeong E. Kim to their staff of advisers for the purpose of researching the possibility of using LENR to power their 10kW waste heat steam engine. Does this group think this is feasible and what are the obstacles to overcome?

    • bachcole

      Assuming that this is true, it is another nail in the coffin of skeptopaths. It is a very convincing data point.

    • artefact

      What I don’t understand is if they want to do LENR research on their own with the help of Dr. Kim or if they want to implement licenced technology from Defkalion. That would make more sence but in this case Kim’s work could be done by an engineer consultant from DGT.
      If they want to licence the technology and if it works as advertised i don’t know what should be difficult to implement it exept maybe to be stable on high temperatures.

  • Private Citizen

    Rossi’s air of secrecy is amusing. Given the world shaking implications of his technology, any number of interested intelligence agencies would find it laughably easy to track his movements, stage covert burglaries, plant bugs, tap phones, intercept signals, insinuate moles, hack computers, inject viruses. His business partner would be an open secret, as would his technology. The only ones kept in the dark are us.

    Beyond that, the capacity for ruthless malevolent interests to threaten his loved ones, etc. would be irresistible. That he is able to continue is itself interesting.

    • GreenWin

      Er, the actions you write of are criminal. Could it be the “interested intelligence agencies” have become aware of overwhelming authority, e.g. Internal Affairs??

      • Private Citizen

        Spying is illegal in every country, but is quite common.

        Gave you an upvote for your reply, even with the condescending “Er,” prefix

        • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

          It is happening.
          I know 3 case.
          One is by stupid scientist (not the most famous ones – he get fooled AFAIK)
          one is very professional computer APT (advanced persistent threat, as IT security says – the kind who let you computer clean)
          one is “ground operation” by a “professional” (the one you won’t ask what he is doing there in your office)

          one victim was a reactor builder, 2 were applications candidate (why?).

          If one is simply a curious loser, the others are… seriously serious. ;-)

          maybe simply incompetent nuclear police (like the one who interrogated defkalion) , or serious “tech/market-watcher”.

          If it is government, I imagine they should just ask us… we would be happy to inform them.

          • GreenWin

            Sorry to be Politically inCorrect, PC. But you tread a precarious path suggesting the double question mark to be “snarky.” The entire comment was snarky. :)

            • Omega Z

              Whoops. I think you meant this for Citizen?

    • Fortyniner

      Various ‘agencies’ of various governments (and others) have the power to do what you suggest, and worse, so your final sentence is accurate. This is especially so, given the apparently high incidence of misfortune among other inventors claiming to have discovered novel power sources and even in certain cases (such as that of Paul Pantone), just hyper-efficient methods of utilising existing fuels.

      If this is accepted, along with the obvious fact that the activities of such organsisations are not hampered by any moral or ethical codes, then there must be an implication is that not only is Rossi being encouraged to do what he is doing by some very powerful interests, but he is also being protected from those who would very much prefer that he didn’t.

      This speculation and similar have come up on a number of previous occasions and various suggestions have been put forward. The one that seems to make the most sense is simply that, as the end of economically accessible oil deposits nears, and Fukushima has made the path of ‘new nuclear’ very uncertain, certain large energy producers have decided that the time is now right for an alternative (so long as they have total control) – and Rossi is ‘it’. This ‘permission’ may extend to others in the field, provided they affiliate with the right corporate interests and don’t try to go it alone.

      http://www.examiner.com/article/free-energy-labeled-economic-terrorism

      http://peakoil.com/alternative-energy/too-many-free-energy-inventors-suddenly-dropping-dead-disappearing

      • Omega Z

        Citizen just may not be aware that we have discussed this in detail before & not aware of Rossi’s connections.

        I would add to your post-
        Given the Gradual phasing in of LENR(Just Economic reality) it will offset the gradual decline in Fossil fuels due to ever increasing costs of obtaining them. Kind of a teeter totter effect And some of TPTB realizing this.

        I Paint with a narrower brush- I see the resistance coming from a small group of well positioned people(Political Power).
        The present Paradigm is killing Economic growth. Results of which are less funding of Iter & other such projects. If I were these people, I would welcome LENR & the Economic Growth it would Create. The Increased Tax revenues from an Increasing world GDP would actually make it easier to obtain funding for said projects even if they may prove fruitless. So much for their education.

        • bachcole

          “And some of TPTB realizing this.” And you know this how? Given that TPTB is NOT a cabal all of whom know each other who conspire together to be meanie heads and suppress the rest of us, but rather a prejudicial idea in some people’s heads sort of like “all Jews” and “all blacks”, I doubt that TPTB is a very useful concept.

          • Omega Z

            Ahh Yeah, They Exist, but not quite like many think.
            It’s a Fragmented Group & doesn’t necessarily run by consensus.
            In fact portions may/usually even be at odds with one another.
            Some would see LENR in a positive light & others would consider it a threat to their agenda, Such as 200 to 300 percent Carbon Tax.

            I see the Rich being like all people.
            Some a nice decent people & some Are Meanie Heads. :)

            • bachcole

              I find it interesting that the old rich look down their noses at the new rich, but the new rich got rich almost entirely by merit, and the old rich just happen to be born into the right (or wrong) family.

            • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

              did you notice that The Energy LLC is a gas and oild fund manager ;-)

              that Shell, Amoco, SAIPEM have team following cold fusion since long…

              beside them, see how Sunrise Securities, Toyota, Mitsubishi, National instruments, Elforsk, are more open than APS,Nature,Science,SciAm,Wikipedia

              The only evil in cold fusion is the academic who are greed of recognition by peers, and their fan, which lead them to parrot instead of innovate.

              as Taleb says, I trust more the one greedy for money, than greedy for honors.

    • bachcole

      People have to believe it before they are going to do anything about it.

    • Omega Z

      I found early on that Rossi has his own contacts in higher Political Echelons.
      And if Rossi has in fact passed the baton to a well healed partner, These things no longer matter. They have already missed their window of opportunity.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    I think it’s Rossi all along. It contains language typical to him, such as “talk OF [not about] a product, “… because [verb missing] subject to a rigorous period of validation…”, “by the day”, “by the week”, “make different dimensions of the modules” (make modules of different dimensions).. there is no doubt about it, in my opinion.

    • ecatworld

      I agree, Pekka. I don’t think he has any staffers writing on the JONP for him either. Maybe the team has agreed on stock phrases he should use in his public communications. Also, he is working full time in the US now presumably with a team of English speakers — his English language skills are bound to improve over time.

  • Rene

    And once again we see that the first comment was likely made by Rossi, and the longer second comment looks like it was his ghost writer replying. This is getting quite ludicrous. These company comments are just PR manipulations which I think do more damage to Rossi’s reputation. I’d rather not see the ghostwriter’s replies at all.
    As for the startup issue, a home heating system need not have to turn on and off constantly. Good heating systems are tuned to stay on 95% of the time delivering just enough heat to meet the losses. At that point they tend to run the most efficient. If an ecat can be modulated to deliver a set heat output, then it could run continuously with the startup time amortized across the very long run time.

    • fortyniner

      If that’s the case I would think it’s the other way round: a content-free brush-off from the minder followed by a slightly fuller and more courteous reply from Rossi when he saw Joseph Fines’ name among the ‘brushed off’. The fuller reply sounds authentic to me. The fact that JONP continues to act as a blog is probably a concession that AR won from the partner, but this may be hedged around with strict conditions.

      I have not so far seen any indication that domestic units may be back on the agenda, nor would I expect this for some considerable time. However if they were, then from an engineering POV I agree there would be a need for good negative feedback modulation, although a thermal store would probably still be needed to even out demand and cope with hysteresis in the system.

  • Marc Ellenbroek

    I do not think the overall COP changes if different units feed heat to each other. (COP=EnergyOut/EnergyIn). I believe it it difficult to make a stable, controllable multi Ecat unit where you control just heat flows.
    If you convert the output energy to electricity (and use a part of that to control the individual units then the electrical) COP of the unit is lower mainly because of conversion to electricity losses. I guess that this is one of the developments Rossi and his partners are working on.
    There is no better prove for LENR than a stand-alone unit producing electricity and or heat without any connection to a power source during months.

    • bachcole

      So I guess this proves that Rossi is not trying to prove anything but is trying to develop something.

      • Casey

        It is, what he is saying.
        It is not important to prove to others his device is working. He already know this.
        More important is to develop something working most effectively, and when he is ready to go public, the mass production have to be running with full speed.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    “Cyclone Power Technologies Adds Renowned Nuclear Physicist,

    Dr. Yeong Kim, to its Technical Advisory Team”

  • Omega Z

    I have to add this.
    This sounds much more like a Rossi post.
    Possibly he slipped this by his Editors.

  • Omega Z

    I believe I read on JONP that among other things, they are also working on the Start-up, Shutdown time periods. Shut down isn’t so much a problem, But Start up is.

    This leaves one in the position of say for home heating, running 24/7 & dumping/wasting heat in order to control/maintain stable temperatures ranges. You quickly lose any cost savings. It is because of this wasting that I calculated a net negative where I live. Cheaper to stick with a 95% High efficient Natural Gas Furnace.

    As many of us have discussed in the past, this 1-4 hour start-up is a major drawback for home units. I can also see this being a problem for some Industrial uses.

    For Commercial Power Plants, this would be less an Issue. They pretty well know the demand periods like clock work & can ramp up addition cores accordingly. Even having a Percentage of cores in an Idle mode where dumping/wasting would be minimal while being able to quickly ramp up to cover spikes.

    In the past, Rossi had talked of having a 1Mw E-cat that could be controlled by starting/stopping individual cores allowing for 10Kw power core increment output.

    Later, I Recall like between Dec.-Mar. Rossi gave a response to one person that seemed to indicate a different possibility. Being able to control Individual cores incrementally. Like 1Kw to 10Kw from a single 10Kw core.
    Sadly, no one seemed to catch this And followup for clarification. If this is possible, it would be another valuable leap in it’s operation.
    Shorter start periods plus incremental Ramping would make this much more manageable & cost competitive for home heating. Dumping would become very minimal.

  • Christopher Calder

    I am not sure if Rossi is talking about putting reactors in series or in parallel, but I suspect parallel. In parallel you just get more volume of heated fluid. In series you might get too much concentrated heat, instability, and a melted reactor. This point should be verified before a judgment can be made as to what it all means as far as COP is concerned.

    I wonder if they have given up on the old design and are planning now to only produce the newer Hot Cat type of reactor. The cavet is, how long will they run before they need to change the fuel? If they can get it to run for two years straight, that would be good. Six months is too short a time if they have to tear down the reactor to refuel.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Frank, I didn’t get the impression that he talked about one reactor making heat for another. I think he just means that several identical units can be put to work in parallel. Interpreted in this way, the remark is almost trivial, but I think the reason he made it was to point out that the size of the modules is not the most important parameter from the user point of view.

    • fortyniner

      Yes, that’s how I read it too. There is a slight implication that they may have had to reduce the power of individual modules for some reason or reasons, but that this is unumportant in a multi-core reactor.

      • Fortyniner

        … or even, unimportant.

  • Peter Shwartz

    Rossi, “…because subject to a rigorous period of validation, during which we also are refining the technology. We are collecting an enormous amount of data that shapes the technology by the day, generating patent applications by the week.”
    Not wanting to be pickey, but I wonder where the validation criteria is, is the under test E-cat being refined as a result of new data? Or is there a totally NEW E-cat under test and partial? evaluation? Or, where is the valuation mechanism placed if there are conflicting, changed or altered objectives and targets?

    • Buck

      I am no science historian, but I’m willing to guess that when Edison was pursuing a complex project, he stuck to his plan except when he thought it better to follow his nose.

      Regarding the testing, if it is 3rd party testing then the 3rd party has control of the version of the E-Cat. If I were in their shoes, I would not change the particular version being tested, but I might be willing to start testing the next reasonable version in addition.

      If it is internal testing, I would hope that there is a similar discipline. I could only imagine stopping an existing test if a new version was so strongly superior that it was obvious the existing test was a pure waste of time and resources. I can also imagine that if the pace of evolution is rapid, then a ‘long-term test’ might only be for a week to enable faster cycling through iterations.

      But, I’m no Edison.

      • ecatworld

        From what AR says, there are two separate long-term testing regimens going on. 3rd party, and internal.

        In addition to the internal long term testing, there is internal R&D going on — that’s what I think Rossi is referring to in this post regarding the different combinations and permutations of the E-Cats.

        • Buck

          far more organized than what I was suggesting.

      • fortyniner

        It does seem likely that (as you suggest) once a test is running it would be allowed to continue to the point of failure, or for a predetermined time. If the resources to hand are as large as Rossi has implied, then the cost of assigning one or two technicians to monitor and adjust a test setup and log data are relatively trivial, and the data gathered, especially from ‘ash’ analysis, could be invaluable. It seems highly probable that many such experiments will be running in parallel in order to assess the effects of various changes.

        • bachcole

          In a large factory I don’t see how Rossi can keep his presence a secret for too long unless he enters the factory either by a private entrance or with a hood over his head. And once his presence is revealed, then all kinds of interesting things will happen. Of course, he does not need to be working in a large factory to have a secret partner that is helping him; he could be in a separate facility of his “own”.

          • Fortyniner

            I prefer to visualise him entering the partner’s research labs by bursting through double doors followed by a cortege of lackeys, then stalking from bench to bench, arms behind back, while white-coated clipboard-bearing techies nervously blurt out their week’s results to the Maestro.

            • bachcole

              I, of course, being one of the lackeys, in a speedy wheel chair. (:->)

            • GreenWin

              Peter, excellent flair for the dramatic. I would add, the Dottore pauses at one bench, frowning at the blinking LCD screen. All goes quiet, techie nervously loosens his collar… Dottore suddenly bursts into a great SMILE. “Eccellente progresso signor Roger! Mantenere il buon lavoro.”

              • bachcole

                I confess that I had to translate the last sentence with Google Translate. I did LOL, though, even before I translated it. (:->)

                • bolly

                  Your own language derives from latin and greek mostly as it is preumably english that you speak correct? Perhaps its you who need adjust .Mr Rossi developed this in Italy and they dont care much for Americans .Do you think the Americans would have let him get this far? My suspicion would be no.

                • bachcole

                  I hope that it helps you to know that I have no idea what you are talking about.

          • Omega Z

            If I were Rossi, I would not be walking around in Florida in a Hoodie!

            • bachcole

              And how is it that we are sure that he is even in Florida all of the time, some of the time, any time? I don’t speculate too much off of anything unless I am certain about it. I am positive that the E-Cat is real, and I can speculate off of that. Anything beyond that is highly questionable in my mind.

        • Buck

          I would like to think that Rossi is joyful at the amount of progress being made. I also would like to think his partners are providing the operational expertise that guides the evolution of the Hot-Cat module towards greater control, reliability, and form-function harmony.

          And, when I read about Cyclone Power and the difference between Sterling and Rankine engines, I can only imagine that Rossi is having a good day.

  • Tom59

    Very refreshing news from Rossi! Most signifiant in my view: he mentioned several patents. This means they have refined and fixed features to a level of great detail – requiring testing-modifying-testing… Sounds like very intense R&D work with a good deal of results.

  • Buck

    Frank, I’m not that familiar with Rossi’s system and his description of ‘superior power’. Does he achieve this by organizing the modules in series or parallel? Does one versus the other have a different impact on COP overall?

    • Daniel Maris

      I got the impression that the IMW “container” arrangement was in parallel. But perhaps he is now talking about working in series.

      • US_Citizen71

        Series would make sense to super heat steam. Something like a pyramid arrangement eight into four, four into two and two feeding into one or something like that. So that the heating is gradual and less cooling happens across the cores at the lower temperatures of the coolant/water due to less flow.

        • Buck

          As a guess, the narrower a window, in this case heat gradient across the active core, the easier it is to control.

          I am hoping that Rossi is talking about the Hot-Cat (hydrogen gas-nickel) system.

          • ecatworld

            Yes, I am sure they are working with the hot cats, Buck

            • Buck

              Thank you for the clarification.

      • Casey

        As I understand the series arrangement has sense in low temperatures E-Cats.
        Now he is working on Hot Cats, in which cat and mouse are already have series setup.
        What Rossi say. To get more power, more energy it need only add additional units.