Forbes’ Tim Worstall on why he Believes the E-Cat Can’t Work

The latest spate of articles that have appeared on all kinds of web sites about the 1 MW low temperature E-Cat plant has prompted a new editorial in Forbes Online. Tim Worstall argues in an article titles “Why I’m Certain that the E-Cat Doesn’t Work as Advertised” that the simple fact that Rossi is trying to sell these units shows that the E-Cat can’t work as claimed.

His argument is summed up in the conclusion of the article:


So, Rossi could be, if he has machines that do what he claims they can do, making money, being cash flow positive, simply by hooking up the machines he’s got to the grid. And given the claims he’s making it would be markedly profitable too. Back of the envelope stuff says that even this new system that he’s hawking for $1.5 million a pop would have a payback period of only a year. So in year two he would have two such machines, your three four and so on.

And that’s the reason I am convinced that the E-cat simply doesn’t do what we’re told it does. Because if it did then Rossi would need no outside money as he’d already be making good money, and expanding fast, simply by selling this cheap power to people through the grid. But he’s not doing that therefore the product doesn’t work as advertised.

There are few things that Mr. Worstall is not fully aware of (somewhat understandable under the circumstances)

1. Although Ecat.com states that it is the official site for Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat, the site is owned and operated by Hydro Fusion, the northern Europe distributors of E-Cat technology.

2. The web page that people are paying attention to has been on the Ecat.com site since early 2012. That was a time when Andrea Rossi was operating independently, and needing to raise money just to stay afloat. The situation has now apparently changed significantly with his new partnership in place.

3. The plant advertised is a low temperature E-Cat unit which produces hot water and steam at low temperatures — not suitable for production of electricity, and therefore unable to plug into the grid.

4. We really have very little idea of what the current business plan for the E-Cat is. It may well be to produce electricity for the grid now that high temperature ‘Hot Cats’ have been developed. Rossi has indicated recently that retrofitting power plants with hot cats is an attractive idea.

As I mentioned in a post yesterday, the information vacuum surrounding Rossi’s partnership is a good breeding ground for speculative articles like this. Absent any clarification or up-to-date announcements from Rossi and his partners rumors will run wild, and unless people take the time to carefully look at the facts, articles like this one in Forbes will likely get a lot of traction in peoples’ minds.

It’s possible that Rossi and Co. don’t care at this point to disabuse the rumors and speculations. They may even see it to be in their interest to have people dismiss them as misguided, or worse — it may throw people of the scent and allow them to continue work unhindered. Personally, however, I’m interested in the truth of the matter, and articles like this tend to allow misinformation to proliferate.


  • bachcole

    David, what does Andrea Rossi care whether you believe it or not? And why should he alert others, particularly government bureaucrats, competitors, the mafia, etc that it works. The only people he needs to convince are potential customers, and hopefully they have enough sense to verify rock solid.

  • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

    for homeopathy I don’t seen any evidence, beside psychology proven evidence that placebo can make people think they are better, and some time make them so better mood than some symptoms really are reduced. It work also for nocebo.

    I agree that it is not the theory that prove Homeopathy is nothing else psychology (not far from the groupthink i critic), but the evidences.

    for LENr is is since long that there is huge evidences, that few prople dared to admit since 1991, confirming the good calorimetry of Fleischmann&Pons.

    Iwamura replicated by Toyota is good evidence.
    F&P was replicated by many and by Longchampt so precisely that there is no doubt.
    Nasa Gas permeation have been replicated many times.
    SRI/ENEA/NRL replicates each others and this should be extraordinary evidences.

    E-cat test done by elforsk, if you read the critics, is clearly proven. they found nothing serious. however the fake doubt the spread, works because people want to belive in it… it is a wishfull thinking from the point of view of mainstream.

    the problem with good evidences is that there is no way to force someone to admit they are good evidences.

    You cannot force someone to admit the sky is blue, if he decide to say it is red.

    see my debate with the physicist on nextbigfuture

    • bachcole

      AlainCo, you get a pass because you have built up so much credit supporting LENR. But please read these links below before you write another long, ignorant, and offensive comment about homeopathy:

      http://www.homeopathy-soh.org/research/research-and-the-society/research-news/cuban-vaccine-test/

      http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/93/5/719

      http://www.aroh.com.au/Resources/Documents/AROH_Submission_20130423a.pdf

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3517425/

      http://www.greenmedinfo.com/article/homeopathic-preparation-has-therapeutic-value-treatment-influenza-syndromes

      And the offensive part about this perspective that you uncharacteristically expressed is that us homeopathy supporters are toooo stupid to realize that homeopathy is all placebo. Placebo does not work for 220 years; eventually society figures out that a placebo is a placebo. Placebo does not work for 175 years (Windsor family); eventually families figure out that a placebo is a placebo. Placebo does not work for 44 years (my family); eventually individuals figure out that a placebo is a placebo.

      I work with power of suggestion as a healing remedy and have been doing so for about 35 freaking years. I know placebos. Homeopathy is no placebo. It works in double blind and even triple blind studies. If it was a placebo, it would not work with animals.

      Furthermore, it is foolishly shallow to think that placebo is all that there is in life. It is true that we do not know how homeopathy works. It is true that many people struggle with materialistic explanations like nano-particles and structured water, but those explanations do not fool me and do not cover the solid observations that remedies get stronger the more that they are diluted. I don’t care too much how it works; I think that it is prana / chi / vital force, some non-materialistic “mechanism”. All I care about is that it does work.

      • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

        Ok, The protocol seems good on the paper.
        I did not cross check critics, so I let it open. I can only judge a paper when hearing critics on it, and counter critics. I did not do my homework on that.
        The references is only dedicated community or government that cannot afford usual medications, but I agree that it won’t attract to medical journals.
        Some of those experiments should be replicated. Hope they can be.

        Are there some replications tried?
        anyway off-topic.

        We are far from the level of evidence in LENR, including military, agencies, corps, hundreds of replications, varied effects, and ex-skeptics.
        I agree that my level of requirement to admit strange science is high… I’m conservative, and I admitted LENR only because there is not the least doubt.

        • bachcole

          I will not be waiting upon your judgment since homeopathy has been working for me and my family for the past 44 years. I in fact have two wonderful children thanks to homeopathy when the MD $H!Thead wanted to do a radical hysterectomy.

    • bachcole

      In the case of LENR, negative results have been a placebo support for the wishful thinking of those who want LENR to go away.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    An article written out of ignorance? Or, an article written by Forbes, who is owned and operated for the benefit of “big business”.

  • Kevin

    Dang! Here the rest of the world knew that ecats produce heat at temperatures not ideal for electricity conversion. I do not think someone could monopolize a game changing technology for very long.

    Selling something is the worst way a scammer could make money. All Andrea Rossi would need to do is “Go Public” with his company and sell shares. I would be among those investing. Mining companies used to scam with shares frequently ( Anyone want some Bre-X Stock?). He could make tens of millions just selling worthless stock, but Rossi refuses investors at every corner.

    Even NASA now says LENR is real. Get over it.

  • kdk

    So, because Rossi wants to make 20+ million the first year instead of 1.5 million, he’s a fraud? That doesn’t make any sense at all. It should be obvious that with capital infusion, a company can expand more quickly and produce more than their lesser resources would have allowed, and thereby increase revenue and profits more quickly. This shouldn’t be anything new in a magazine about business and finance… really.

    • bachcole

      kdk, excellent point. And, ya know what, those two strategies are not mutually exclusive. And for all we know, Rossi is already selling energy to a utility. And for all we know, the utility does not realize it.

  • richard

    Rossi claimed the 6 month test would be complete by now you cal look up his comments from over 6 months ago saying the 6 month test was already started and now the claim is that it won’t be done for months so either he lied when he said the test had started or it failed and was started over either way he is not being honest he is just keeping attention drawn in while everyone stops following progress because for 5 years we have heard this is real and there is still nothing but promises of proof that always take more then what it should to produce based his own claims at this rate I figure we will see one we can visit is its real by about 2020 many 2025 so why is nobody calling him out on this if your all so interested in getting facts

    • US_Citizen71

      He has also said that his internal tests were going to be extended and might be longer than a year, those tests are the ones he referred to as being started this summer. The third party test likely being done by Elforsk is not under his timetable and I believe it wasn’t started until the fall, so if it runs six months it would likely end march or later.

    • bachcole

      OMG, richard, you’re right! Why didn’t I see that!!! Rossi again failed to predict the future and estimate accurately when something would get done. This would be the first time in the history of technology that this ever happened. This is proof positive that everything that Rossi says is a lie and that both LENR and LENR+ are disproven. My G0D, why didn’t I see this?!?! I guess we needed a newby to point this out to us. I am just going to give up on Rossi and ignore the Levi et. al. 2013 report and Mike McKubre and the whole bunch of them and go back to visiting porn sites. [sarcasm]

      • humblemechanic

        Rossi did “predict” the future and gave several estimates over the years but
        failed deliver each and very time.

    • Omega Z

      First public tests of concern Jan. 2011 to present is just shy of 3 years. Not 5 years.
      Note: I recently read this(Within the last week or 2).
      6 years to build out the PS4 to market.
      6 years- To build out a New Game System.
      A Long time for something that basically consists of Incremental advances.

      If you were up to speed on the E-cat Topic, You would be aware that Most of what happens with the E-cat is no Longer Rossi’s responsibility.
      He is now Chief of R&D. The New Owner is responsible for everything Else.

      • bachcole

        I suspect that richard doesn’t give a fig about the truth. I doubt if we will be seeing him anymore, except perhaps in 5 or 10 years when we meet him at Home Depot to buy an E-Cat.

        • Omega Z

          Yep, I know…

          Better had I just posted “HERE’S YOUR SIGN” :)

      • humblemechanic

        Just who is the New Owner? Did the developers of the two examples you cite
        give dates of impending “success” and failed to deliver? Rossi has been going on for
        years with his promises: I think he is the Old Maestro of obfuscation. Its been mooted
        that he is doing it to confuse the competition but all the bullmanure of sixty people
        working/setting up an automated factory in the USA and that was before validations,
        certifications, etc. suggest that he is What You See Is What You Get, the genuine
        article: 24 carat humbug.

        • Omega Z

          1 Example. Not 2. The PS4 is a Gaming System. Always 2 years away. Took 6 before it came to market.
          Apple’s I-Phone has a similar track record of 6+ years. The I-pad was actually pre I-Phone. Shelved. Finally came to Market after the I-phone.
          IBM, General Motors, AT&T, All Major players develop products that have long Concept to market periods with Delays & date projection slippage & Occasionally fail to deliver at all.
          It Is the Norm. Not The Exception. Most if not all have more products that never even made it to market then products that did.
          Should someone tell me a project went smooth & without a Hitch, I Immediately suspect that he is lying to impress me with his abilities or had no hands on in the project & delegated it to underlings. I Guarantee the underlings would disagree with his assessment by a long-shot.

          Things always go wrong & Ironclad agreements can fall apart in an Instant.
          As To Rossi & Years, Rossi didn’t go public until Dec. 2010/ Jan. 2011. Rossi thought this was to early, but did so at the request of Focardi. Very likely due to Focardi’s failing health who wanted to see it go public while he was still alive. Friendship has a price. May he Rest In Peace.

          Rossi’s Partner is presently Secret. For something of this Nature, this is Normal. Entities such as Google, Etc.. do this all the time. Only disclosing themselves when they are ready. Floating Container Barges. What are they???

          What Would Make Me Leary/Suspicious would be if everything went smooth without a hitch. That is nearly unheard of even in normal projects, let alone in something of LENR nature.

  • humblemechanic

    I just don’t see the need for hooking up to the Grid. The complications seem to be overlooked by most
    commenters: the voltage and frequency matching plus the measurement of kW/hours present difficulties
    that could be avoided by a totally independent installation. There must several new housing developments
    or plants/factories of the right size and scale that could be suitable with perhaps a very small generator for
    frequency setting/standard to enable the use of regular electrical equipment.

    • Omega Z

      I find it Highly probable that this technology will be installed as Micro-Grids. Local Utilities.
      The Reason for this is the Economics of Home Generating is prohibitive at this time. The Present technology just isn’t up to the Job.

      A CHP system I’ve looked into-All are pretty similar-
      $25K to $30K installed
      Maintenance every 2K hours with Fee$
      A 10 year life-cycle is their goal. Not yet reached.
      Based on 3,000 hours of use of 8760 hour year.
      Produces 3,000Kwh. Less then 3 months of average home energy needs.
      Add Cost of E-cat+service/refuel.

      The Math shows a BIG increased cost compared to present.
      Installed as a Local Micro-Grid would be cheaper then present.

      Until other technologies catch up, it’s just not cost/benefit feasible.
      Best of all worlds would be some Major advance in Thermal/electric conversion. 35% or more efficient.
      Other then that, with some improvements in the LENR technology, the E-cat could be used for a base-load heating system.

      • humblemechanic

        Rossi has been mired in complications with every one of his projects and
        mostly of his own making. What I would like to see is a totally independent
        installation with a small gen-set for initial start up and to act as frequency and
        voltage standard to enable regular electrical equipment use. Since COP of
        3 or more were obtained in various tests and validations etc. efficiency is not
        too critical but having one satisfied customer is. Will we be seeing one? Pious
        hope. What bound to happen is ongoing verifications, tests and complications.
        And complications are the first and last resorts of the scoundrel.

        • Omega Z

          “the voltage and frequency matching”
          This issue has to be dealt with regardless of all else.
          Years ago a Marketed Gen-set wasn’t to kind to certain electronics.
          Tho details were sparse, It seemed related to products that used capacitors to start Like Refrigeration.

          As to Feeding back to the Grid- Yes, you need a separate system for feed back that is isolated from the existing incoming Mains.
          A Separate Meter & an auto-disconnect should there be problems with the Line.
          Two primary Reasons for this.
          1 is so Lineman don’t get inadvertently electrocuted on what should be a dead line.
          The other is burning out your own system from the Energy Draw of others connected to that line among other things. This is Not Cheap.

  • Stephen Paul Goodfellow

    I have enjoyed Jim Worstall’s articles, he is one of the few writers in the mainstream media that actually pay attention to LENR research. If he doesn’t understand the finer points of Rossi’s device, then I’m in the same boat and I’ll call anyone a liar, including Rossi, who claims to understand exactly what processes are going on here.
    It seems to me that Defkalion and Rossi are caught in a dual paradox; they don’t understand exactly how this ‘stuff’ works, and neither can, for the love of money, figure out how to spin gold out of it.
    You can see the desperation when Rossi’s company talks about having certified personnel changing out the nickel and hydrogen compounds. Isn’t that a little like someone coming to your house and changing out the batteries in your flashlight? Or Stephenson insisting that only his specialized coal shovelers be allowed to fuel his trains? This is simply the product of a discoverer desperately wringing hands, trying to figure out how to make dosh.
    As to keeping the process a secret? It’s like a thirsty stone age man discovering a lake and wanting to keep it for himself; sooner or later others from his tribe will find it too. This is the way of the World.

    • Gr

      I agree absolutely. One more possibility: If someone analyze “burned out” fuel from E-Cat, so he/she may find that not only energy is produced, also mass is produced. What worse for Rossi: even Nickel is produced in this technology. This way his patents filings are invalid because are wrong.

      • bachcole

        That would of course violate E = MC^2, which I doubt. Rossi’s patents would be the least of the World’s problems.

        • US_Citizen71

          No actually it would still hold. If M increases E would increase. That equation really just states the energy required for a given mass to reach the speed of light. It is a derivative of Kinetic Energy: Ek = ½ mv2

          • Babble

            Actually, it is the conversion of mass to energy, aka atomic bomb. This means reduced mass for more energy.

            • US_Citizen71

              You are correct I knew it was a basic, shouldn’t try to quote equations and drink beer at the same time.

          • bachcole

            You are mistaken. More mass means that the energy has to come from some place. Such a situation would approach absolute zero in a hurry.

    • bachcole

      Be a good fellow Goodfellow and listen up. Tim Worstall did not fail to keep me happy because he is not an excellent writer and a clear thinker. He did not fail to keep me happy because he did not get into the details of Rossi’s process or how it supposedly works. Mr. Worstall simply chooses theory over observation and/or does not believe the plethora of scientists and other honest people who have observed LENR and those who have observed LENR+, the most important of course is 2013 Levi et. al. report.

    • Omega Z

      Rossi is not worried about Joe on the Street steeling his IP & building his own. Joe will have to have it certified, carry liability Insurance & meet all types of other regulations. And Basically, the cost to build it is prohibitive for the average Joe even if he has the ability to do so. You should note that Opening a core to check it out requires destruction of that core. These Cores are Not reload. They are replaced in their entirety. Their hermetically sealed for a reason. If the Leak in anyway, they do not work.

      Rossi’s concern is that other Corporates will copy it, of which have the vast sums of money to do this. Actually, It would be Rossi’s Partner who is concerned as they Own it. Not Rossi…

  • Omega Z

    Reading some of Worstall’s comments shows that not only is he way behind the Data, He’s also over his head in understanding.
    Unaware that Rossi is not asking for money.
    Unaware that Rossi is just the Chief Scientist & the Technology belongs to the Partner Lock/Stock & Barrel.
    Is of the opinion that Mw is only an Electrical value.

    A Possibility from Jed-@Vortex why this Old News may have popped up.
    Maybe the website was renewed and it came to the attention of the bots.

    And MY is regurgitating same garbage again. Which is Nice. No need to read it. Most of us could site it from memory. Apparently MY is also way behind the Data. Which is what happens when 1 is so close minded.

  • Daniel Maris

    I don’t think you should spare Mr Worstall at all. There have been articles in the Forbes Online magazine before now and anyone can acquaint themselves with the available facts, such as they are, regarding the E Cat in under a day.

    Such comments are ridiculous.

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      problem is tha on that subject most people who support mainstream position, thinks thay know all.

      second is that the least credible critic is honey for them..

      see how the swalowed the awful paper of pomp&eriksson…how can they bash paper by Storsm, McKubre,Miles, and support Pomp&Eriksson conspiracy theory?

      but they can!

      reread benabou about Mutual assured Delusion:
      http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers/Groupthink%20IOM%202012_07_02%20BW.pdf
      “The key observation is that this tradeof is shaped by how others deal with bad news, creating cognitive linkages. When an agent benefits from others’ overoptimism, his improved prospects make him more accepting of the bad news which they ignore. Conversely, when he is made worse of by others’ blindness to adverse signals, the increased loss attached to such news pushes him toward denial, which is then contagious. Thinking styles thus become strategic substitutes or complements, depending on the sign of externalities (not cross-partials) in the interaction payofs. When interdependence among participants is high enough, this Mutually Assured Delusion (MAD) principle can give rise to multiple equilibria with diferent ‘social cognitions’ of the same reality. The same principle also implies that,in organizations where some agents have a greater impact on others’ welfare than the reverse(e.g., managers on workers), strategies of realism or denial will ‘trickle down’ the hierarchy,so that subordinates will in efect take their beliefs from the leader

      In line with the MAD principle I show that if an agent’s remaining uninformed about the state of the world leads him to increase the risks borne by others, this pushes them toward also delaying becoming informed; as a result, ignorance becomes contagious and risk spreads through the organization.”

      it can explain why the violence against dissenters will increase, until it get possible for some people to take advantage despite the consensus.

      In a way if you give position, funding,prize to LENr scientists, MIT juniors will believe in LENR.

      today they are ridiculed if they try… so they don’t.

      • GreenWin

        Very helpful. i.e. If the boss is MAD – so are his toadies. Forbes misses on a Pulitzer Prize winning story breaking LENR to world financial gurus. Sad.

        • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

          in fact boss the question is hierarchy of dependency.

          in science, the hierarchy is topped by Nature, Science editors, MIT, Caltech reviewers ,APS, ARPA/DoE funding agencies, Nobel committee and influencers

          question is not who command, gives orders, but who can ruin your career, crash your publication rate, ruin your chance of Nobel.

          Biberian in “la fusion dans tout ses états” explained how cold fusion research was stopped at CEA because the boss wanted to have a Nobel and was afraid to be blacklisted if he allowed subordinated to publish on that domain.

          This is the kind of hierarchy that drive the scientist to believe the fairy tales of Huizenga, who was advisory to funding agency (DoE), like some APS bosses…

          after that the tragedy is that it push many actors to dar to break rules of conducts, ethics, just because they feel protected by the mafia bosses.

          see how mallove descrive MIT bullying and frauds (not only on calorimetry but on all ethics domain) agains cold fusion

          http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1991/eirv18n37-19910927/eirv18n37-19910927_052-clearing_the_air_about_the_cold.pdf

      • Alan DeAngelis

        “O lucky ones who enjoy the dumb show”
        -Jim Morrison

  • GreenWin

    Just saw this in the Forbes comment section: “Mr. Worstall is a fellow at the Adam Smith Institute and a wholesaler
    and trader in rare-earth minerals, specializing in scandium, of which he
    handles about 50 percent of the world’s consumption.”

    Why wouldn’t a niche commodities broker know about low energy nuclear reactions??

    • bachcole

      Knowing about it and believing in it are two entirely different things. To believe it requires an investment in time. My time investment was 19 months. Even if he were 10 times smarter and faster reader than I am, which I seriously doubt, believing in LENR would still require 58 days of study. Do you think that he would spend 58 days to study it when he already has a full life. No! He is going to take the short cut of using his deductive reasoning. How many times during the day do you or I skip over things because we don’t think that it is worth our time? Just because people don’t agree with us does not automatically make them evil.

      • GreenWin

        Roger, it is admirable that you defend a “journalist” for avoiding the attention and detail that is integral to his job. Yet for a “journalist” to publish so poorly researched and fact-checked a column is simply pathetic. It takes 5-8 hours to catch up on the general state of development in LENR. It might take 2 hours to read the previous E-Cat columns by Mark Gibbs. If Worstall’s life is “too full” to do his job – he should be fired. Just like they fired Gibbs for doing his job too well. Mr. Worst is a mining consultant and broker of minerals. Who said anything about evil?

        • Fortyniner

          While such failures of technical journalism may seem understandable in a certain light (although personally I’m not inclined to give the benefit of any doubt about motives), each such article does its own little bit to help delay the propagation of full knowledge of progress in LENR, and consequently it’s rate of development and uptake.

          This may not seem to be of enormous importance in any one instance, but the effect is cumulative, and there is always a chance that one individual who could have made a difference goes down a different path as a result of reading such biased material. ‘Journalists’ who can’t do their job properly should not do the job at all.

          The need of the world for this (or any) clean alternative to burning fossil fuels or gambling the future of life on the planet through nuclear fission is now so enormously pressing, and the price of each extra day of living in this paradigm in treasure and human misery so high, that any human activity that delays it (whether intentional or otherwise) is quite simply, evil in nature.

        • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

          question is if it is incompetence, lazyness, or… data avoidance.

          it seems a characteristic of most skeptics is data avoidance.

          we convinced, are more victims of data flood… over interpretation (we should be careful).

          maybe is it simply because the data agree with us, and disagree with skeptics…

          we are not genious, but just lucky to be rewarded for our realism, to have fallen in the good group.

          One way Benabou describe the MAD consequence, is that it create a “dual reality” in the society…

          It is not far from the concept on incommensurability of paradigm described by Thomas Kuhn.

          we or the skeptics can be absolutely coherent with our method and data…

          skeptics eliminate nearly all data with their algorithm, except few data they don’t criticize at all (like pomp&eriksson paper, huizengha and Cudes papers, krivits anti-rossi tribunes). Their world is thus absolutely coherent: the is no solid data on LENr, and all is coherent with Rossi as fraudster, Xanthoulis as co-fraudster, all other scientist as incompetent, loose , deluded, and fringe, and all corps as either greedy or victims, with no need to detail because anyway they know theory and consensus is on their side, thus no checking is required…

          in case some data are annoying, some cognitive dissonance allow to solve the problem. if some result are undeniable, you can admit they are real but tiny (Goatguys or mary yugo do that, like many skeptics), but transform that acceptation into “so it does not exist since it is not usable”. an absolute fallacy that they don’t even see, and that naive people don’t spot. (it is tea tea kettle fallacy).

          we however can stay coherent with a mass of data gathered by Jed Rothwell. we can understand current delusion with alternate anti-academic epistemology (Kuhn,Taleb,Benabou) without need of conspiracies.

          We can make individual errors, by supporting bad papers, errors, even fringe or deluded researchers, even scam artist, but among the huge mass of data we feel safe.

          we should be ready for some failure among our network of evidence, but the global networks will stay connected since it is heavily redundant.

    • Omega Z

      Maybe, Mr. Worstall doesn’t want to have an artistic disagreement with Forbes Masters as Gibbs did.

      Note that Forbes is shopping for new Owners. It’s up for sale.

      • bachcole

        Well, then, let’s buy it (Forbes).

        • Fortyniner

          I’ll bung in a tenner. That just leaves the other half to find…

        • Omega Z

          Are You Kidding??
          I just shelled out for thanks Giving dinner!!!
          I’m a Little short on pocket change right now. :)

          Think the number bandied around was $400 Mill.
          A Billion less then a year or so ago.

    • Fortyniner

      Why not indeed. He has certainly demonstrated a remarkable independence of thought in the field of chemistry.

  • bachcole

    Epistemologically {that’s a word I haven’t used recently} speaking, LENR is very similar to homeopathy. On one side we have all of the reasons why it can’t work (plus reasons why some people don’t want it to work). And on the other side we have a pile of observations. But with homeopathy, it requires a much more sympathetic perspective to admit that it works, but with LENR we WILL have indisputable evidence that NO ONE can dismiss, no matter what they want or what they believe. (:->)

  • Sanjeev

    Well, the situation is laughable really. All clueless “journalists” parroting each other.
    Not their fault entirely, Rossi lacks a centralized info outlet and his partners have not done anything to clean the old info from the net.
    Worst-all, the names says it all . Lol.

  • Sandy

    If Tim Worstall believes that Andrea Rossi and his associates are trying to defraud people then he could file a complaint with the Florida Attorney General at http://myfloridalegal.com/contact.nsf/contact?Open&Section=Citizen_Services. And if he does not file such a complaint then he should not accuse Rossi of making claims that are not true.

    In this case, the applicable idiom is “Put up or shut up!”

    http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/put+up+or+shut+up

  • Buck

    I laughed when I read that sentence.

    • Kalidor

      It is a specious analogy but I think it did the job. the whole article was laced with nonsense like this. His taking the gold to a gold shop to fund the project was also hilarious. I live in a small mining town in rural Queensland, so maybe it’s just too small to have a “we buy your excess heat’ store.

  • Fortyniner

    Worstall is simply parroting the standard troll ‘logic’: “If Rossi had what he claims then he would (insert scenario of choice). As he hasn’t (done what I say) then he is obviously a charlatan”. The article follows what seems to be the current pattern by using half truths and insinuation to disparage Rossi, and somehow failing to mention rather pertinent recent information.

    Admin’s 4-point ‘debunk’ blows him out of the water – but there is nothing there he couldn’t have found out for himself with half an hour’s research (much less if he’d come straight here). Either this ‘oversight’ is sheer idleness or he is working to an agenda dictated by his employer (neither reflects on him too well).

    Given what happened to Mark Gibbs, the latter seems like a reasonable possibility. It is notable that he (Worstall) even has the gall to cite Gibbs as a skeptic, in support of his own trashy article. It seems that Forbes is back on the MSM track after Gibbs’ foray into the truth, and we will not be hearing anything more of interest from this source.

    • Gerrit

      How I’d love to have a better channel to change thoughts with you all.

      • ecatworld

        What kind of channel are you thinking of, Gerrit?

        • Gerrit

          think about a workshop.
          All the guys (and gals ?) in a room.
          What has to be done, where are our key points.
          Who is good in what, how do we achieve our goals ?

          We are all not working together well enough to forward our joint idea.

          typing messages somehow doesn’t do it for me.

          I would like to see this joint “feeling” get much more “structure”.

          I don’t know what channel would be best for that.

          Maybe a 5 star ski resort with a conference room would be a good idea

          • Fortyniner

            Typing messages (either here where they might just get read by newcomers to the issue, or to politicians and journalists) is probably fairly futile. However it seems slightly more useful than assembling somewhere to talk about it. I spent half my working life avoiding ‘meetings’ and ‘seminars’ so I could actually do the various jobs I’ve been paid for!

      • Fortyniner

        You may need to expand on that one a little, Gerrit!

      • artefact

        Teamspeak? :)

  • bachcole

    I don’t, at this point, see malevolent motivation from Tim Worstall. He just seems unfamiliar with Levi 2013 and the other compelling observations. But how can he possibly know that Rossi isn’t selling electricity back to the grid when even the utility in question wouldn’t necessarily know. Tim himself said that it could be faked easily.

    Also, I find fault with his math. If the 1 MW plant pays for itself in 1 year, that does not mean that at the end of two years Rossi should have two plants. Plants cost money; eating costs money; housing costs money; payrolls cost money; etc.

    • Gerrit

      I wish we could have gizmodo, forbes, psys.org nad all the other set up a discussion “pit”. The commenter on one side, the commenters on the other side and the journalists in the middle, steering the discussion. Like a TV-discussion talk show (do these things exist in USA?).

      • Omega Z

        Will there be Tomatoes or Eggs on hand.
        At Least a Taser. Right. :)

  • Buck

    I find it a very strange coincidence that within the last two days, a minor storm of off-the-mainstream articles about the E-Cat going on sale has been picked up by Tim Worstall of Forbes. At the least, it means that Worstall has some Google Alerts focused on LENR keywords. Maybe friends tweeted him about the articles.

    It looks and reads like another piece of ‘positive skepticism’ with enough caveats to allow Worstall to backtrack when LENR becomes an obvious reality. The following quote is a perfect example:
    “But it is true that our knowledge of chemistry and physics is not as yet perfect so there is still some miniscule chance that the machine does work.”

    I look forward to the day when the likes of Forbes writes a ‘positive skepticism’ piece about the recent Elforsk LENR Report.

    • GreenWin

      Perhaps the old saw, “Even bad press is good,” applies – though ineffectively. I suppose it’s better than a Times banner screaming: “Everything You Know is Wrong!”

      My favorite banner would be: “There IS Enough!”

  • Gerrit

    great comment by moab, wink wink, know what I mean ?

    • Fortyniner

      It’s a bit difficult to work out where ‘moab’ is coming from, but the consensus of the other commenters so far seems clear enough. It seems that dismissing LENR as fakery may no longer be the pushover it used to be.

      • bachcole

        It is easy to dismiss LENR. Just stick with deductive reasoning and ignore the observations. I doubt that there would be even so much as a single step forward if that is what everyone did. Truth be told, people fixated on deductive reason can’t dance.

      • Buck

        Being of limited intelligence, I willing to ascribe this change to the Elforsk LENR Report. What else could have so dramatically and quickly shifted the tone of the troll commentator’s articles as if they were in a synchronized dance?

        • GreenWin

          More of a “goose-step” I would say.

          • Buck

            Responding to Adam Smith’s invisible hand as if it held the wand of an orchestra conductor.