An LENR Lobby Needed?

As recent discussion has touched on things like patent approval, product certification, government approvals, and the like I have been thinking about the power of lobbying, and its effect on decision making in the public and private sectors. Almost every economic, political, social or industrial interest group of significant size in the world today is involved in serious and significant lobbying activity to affect public opinion and public policy.

Lobbying comes from diverse sources such as trade and industry associations, advocacy groups for social, political parties, workers’ unions. Many large companies and organizations have their own lobbying departments. Successful lobbyists have contacts and friends in influential positions in government, industry, and the media and are able to be persuasive in advocating for their particular causes and affecting public sentiment.

It seems to me that there is no natural lobby for the cause of LENR — and this could put the cause at a significant disadvantage when it comes to trying to compete with the many industries and interests it could threaten. From what I am able to see, at the moment there are few individuals or groups with much clout in the halls of power who are advocating for LENR. The cause could be significantly enhanced if well-known and well-connected individuals and groups would speak out in support of LENR — so far this has not happened. Most advocacy comes from independent free-thinking individuals who see the obvious benefits of LENR but who are largely unaffiliated with people who are able to make things happen in the real world.

It could be that the technology itself will be revolutionary and attractive enough for people in power to naturally embrace it — but maybe that kind of thinking is a bit naive. With the myriad and diverse interests that could stand to lose something, significant obstacles could be thrown up to stop things from progressing.

Maybe it’s just early days, and not enough people have learned about LENR yet, but so far there are signs that resistance could continue to be strong — skeptical voices did quite a good job of dampening the impact of the Levi report earlier this year, for example. Working E-Cats for satisfied custoemers should make a big difference in convincing people, but there may be objections raised in that case, as well — and even getting to that point could be difficult.

It could be that there really will be a need for a well-organized LENR lobby to educate the public, and key decision-makers help it move into the mainstream.

  • GreenWin

    Michael Brune Exec Dir Sierra Club, has commented that his organization is willing to look at any alternative energy technology. He is also opposed to the nuke supporters like the four climateers (Hansen, Caldeira, Emanuel and Wigley) who endorse nuclear power as the film “Pandora’s Promise.” One reason environmentalist organizations ignore a benevolent technology like LENR is membership. That is, the more irate the citizenry is with a problem, the more members opposition organizations sign up. Which is income. Which pays salaries, confab junket fees, advertising and PR fees – all intended to expand membership.

    If Brune were serious about leading the way to the alternative energy future – he would be meeting with Dr. Robert Duncan at the Kimmel Inst. Nuclear Renaissance at U Missouri. He would be meeting with scientists and execs at Sweden’s Elforsk R&D center, and with Dr Levi, et al regarding the E-Cat verification and ways to support LENR study.

    Climate campaigns bring donors, members, and supporters to enviro organizations. Solutions like LENR, obviate climate fears which slow membership and revenue to “nonprofits” like Sierra Club.

    • AlainCo

      I have no doubt those malthusians lords are just lying when claiming they would accept non CO2 energy…

      just starting to reject nuke… If LENR did not exist, modernized nuke would be the only realistic solution. Maybe cleaner nuke, bigger or smaller, thorium or fast neutrons, pebble bed, or PbBi …but unless we develop LENR as it is happening, we would need nuke. That is what many environmentalis who did not totally surrender to groupthink, have realized

      just an article for the people who like we are brain washed agains LENR, are brain washed for renewable (or others fashion fears and dreams):

      http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.contrepoints.org%2F2013%2F11%2F14%2F146024-la-france-1er-exportateur-mondial-delectricite&sandbox=1

      In germany, despite all lies propagated by Sierra Club lobbies, renewable energy is a clear failure. their huge intermitent power, is allowing them sovietic victory report when (las christmas) they flood France with useless energy that is bought at MINUS 200euro per MW. meanwhile, france stay the biggest exporter, playing with i’ts capacity to give energy when needed, and absorb it when proposed.

      France have one of the lowes CO2 per MW ratio, and Germany is in the top10 of CO2 polluted…

      http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.contrepoints.org%2F2013%2F11%2F14%2F146024-la-france-1er-exportateur-mondial-delectricite&sandbox=1

      • GreenWin

        Most big green orgs cannot see past their climate/Cap & Trade dream program. Cap & Trade is a brokerage scheme from Wall Street that would be the money machine for a few big NGOs. LENR solves nearly all climate issues making climate essentially moot (thanks Rog).

    • Buck

      Has Michael Brune been approached by a leading LENR promoter like a Sidney Kimmel, presented with the evidence as well as the benefits to the environment? Did Michael Brune then provide something like a refusal for support?

      Unless the answer to these two questions are ‘Yes’, you are letting your assumptions control LENR lobbying plans too much, IMO. It is one thing to let assumptions guide an understanding of and actions towards Big Oil/Gas/Coal/Nuclear, it is another thing when there is a possible friend that has been de-friended before they are even asked.

      IMO, to look for absolute purity in motives is to beg for a coalition of one or a few, but not the many.

      • bachcole

        Buck, I have to give you an extra 1+. How about a 10X. Very well put.

      • GreenWin

        Buck, fair questions. However, putting a few feet to the new fire includes asking why Brune and other enviro team leaders have not acted. The 2009 60 Minutes “Cold Fusion is Hot Again” provides enough exposure, detail and resources for ONE of the greens to follow up. Bad motives? No. What’s wrong with hyping an issue to increase membership? Nothing IMO. But it might blind one to viable, worthy solutions.

        • Buck

          GW, good points. IMO, the lessons to date point to an issue of being opportunistic about the timing.

          As we know, in 2009 CF was a “disrespected fringe science” WITHOUT any foreseeable path to implementation despite the swell of interest driven by the 60 Minutes story. I think your points hold weight at that point but it was also understandable that the Big Green organizations choose to not focus upon CF (LENR) at that point. It was three years after Al Gore’s ‘An Inconvenient Truth’ and the weight of Big Oil/Gas/Coal’s +$20Million investment in disinformation drives were becoming knowledge through Jay Rockefeller’s public chastisement of Exxon’s leaders for funding the disinformation organizations. But, the anti-Climate Change message was sinking in – the question of dissent was sticking to the public mind.

          Big Green and those believing in the issue of Climate Change had their hands full just organizing around the message of the science without being slammed for trumpeting the ‘pipe dream’ of CF (LENR). The anti-climate change forces would have been shooting at fish in the barrel. For example, just listen to us here in this forum. We support LENR but the dissent around Climate Change can be heated about taking away a fundamental reason for supporting LENR: if CO2 is not an issue then why all the fuss?

          IMO, the above picture entirely changes when the likes of Rossi and Brillouin will presumably have functional ‘Hot Cats’ available for public trials in late 2014. Believing that the trials will be successful, this would provide the protection/justification for the Big Green’s to come forward.

          IMO, it is smart to coordinate the approach of the Big Greens by the likes of a Sidney KImmel with functional extended testing of LENR devices in power plants.

          • US_Citizen71

            “if CO2 is not an issue then why all the fuss?”

            Cost: The cost both financially and in human terms continue to mount. Most of the easily accessible deposits have already been tapped. The next deposits are in harder to reach areas like under the sea or deeper underground if your looking at coal. Tapping these deposits cost more and are more dangerous both to those doing the work and to the environment when the predictable spill happens in areas we don’t want them to.

            More energy needed: The more people on the planet and the higher the standard of living we all aspire to the more energy we need.

            Energy density: Faster higher flying planes, maglev trains, floating cities and a host of other endeavors require more energy in a smaller lighter package. If we ever want to leave this rock and move out into the stars or even only the moon in any great number we need sources of energy more dense than fossil fuels.

            Because it is there and we can, hopefully. : )

            • Buck

              USC-71, very well put for attracting the Climate Change deniers. I like it. I also like the fact that LENR generates no pollution, including CO2 emissions, attracting the Climate Change believers.

          • GreenWin

            Buck, where we differ is in the effect of “support” to qualified scientists doing quality research. In this case, mostly for the benefit of humanity. I see nothing other than political power mongering to prevent true environmentalists from encouraging cold fusion R&D. – They need not invest, or trumpet, or focus on any alternative, but even passive support would demonstrate open minded thinking.

            The lack of this support is the direct result of fundamentalist science. And the fear instilled in science-based endeavor that if one wanders too far from rational materialism – they will be excommunicated. Fortunately that is changing daily now. And big or little green NGOs not supporting viable alternatives to fossil/fission/hot fusion, e.g. LENR – will be construed in fundamental light. It’s their choice.

            • Buck

              GW, we agree . . . society at large has failed to shake loose from the original pillorying of P&F.

    • bachcole

      Let us assume that Brune is not a conniving meanie head. Let us say that he is sincere in his belief about nuclear and in his (current) disbelief in LENR Let us say that he and the leaders of various environmental groups are all competing for memberships, which is a fact. Given current attitudes by the overwhelming majority of people, Brune would still be acquiring more members, his numbers would still look good, and his board of directors would still be standing up and clapping whenever he came into the room. Imputing bad motives is completely unnecessary to explain the phenomenon. It merely helps one feel morally superior.

  • US_Citizen71

    Your own words “16000 watts/120 volts will trip every breaker in the auditorium”, so suddenly claiming one 20amp breaker is clearly moving the goal posts. My townhouse has a 180amp main multiple that times 120volts and that says some how my little townhouse can handle 21600watts when you claim 16000watts will fry the wiring of an auditorium. The first half of your post is just an attempt to do repair and CYA on your lack of knowledge of electricity and energy. If you actually work for a company as an engineer it is as a sanitation engineer and even sanitation engineers would laugh at your above statements since they flip the breakers to turn the lights on in most cases.

    So lets move on to the crux of what you are trying to do in this discussion and that is to bait me into defending Rossi’s decision to not build a demo meeting your criteria. I’m sure you have a nice list of talking points for that debate and through it you try and prove he is a fraud because he won’t make a device to meet your criteria. Yawn, been there, done that. Rossi has said himself why he won’t do it and that simply is that people like you will move the goal posts no matter what he demos so there is no point. And after debating with you I tend to agree with him.

    • roseland67

      You are correct, I should have said ANY breaker, not every breaker,
      it has been edited,
      The Ecat was plugged into a single 120 v outlet, supposedly connected to a single 20 amp ciruit breaker. 99% of these type of circuit breakers are 80% rated, the most current you’re going to get out of this tye of breaker is 16 amps.
      There is no way that you have a 180 amp single phase circuit breaker feeding a single outlet in your home, it would require 00 wire gauge.
      Insulting me, and your impossible real world explanations are simply avoiding the issue because no one can address it.
      The goalposts have not moved,
      IF the application scales up, this is a mute discussion, if not,
      it is simply an interesting lab experiment that deserves study.
      MIT could have just as easily built a dupicate of Rossi’s machine or bigger, but instead, they built one that only produces a few milliwatss of power, ask yourself why. Think with engineering objectivity NOT faith in something you want to happen.
      IF LENR works is safe, reliable, repeatable, repairable and can be scaled,
      there is no downside, I would welcome the opportunity to participate in this world changing technology and would buy a ringside seat to watch the political upheaval and dismanteling of the global energy powers.

  • bachcole

    Like all skeptopaths, you are emotionally dull. There are all kinds of fear, like subtle vs. overt. I am sure that Hagelstein is not afraid of assault; that would be overt. He could still lose his job, but no one is overtly threatening that. And there are innumerable reasons for fear. MIT scientists are probably afraid of social censure and losing their jobs. They see Hagelstein socially isolated because of LENR, and they don’t have the guts to go there. And they know that the next step beyond social censure is losing their jobs. Perhaps Hagelstein has other projects going and the school administration felt that he was worth the embarrassment of having him stay. Perhaps they are afraid of the outrage if he were to be fired.

  • Dennis Lynn

    I have found the Unitarian Church membership in Naples, Florida, to be quite receptive to new ideas, especially concerning matters relating to the environment. I believe many of the congregations nationwide support this “green” way of thinking. Thus, perhaps reaching out to the many Unitarian congregations might be an avenue to be used to spread the word about lenr.

    • Buck

      +1 I agree.

  • Mr. Moho

    What the…?
    I was trying to catch up with Cures information on Cobra forum when I found this picture there:

    http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123539874_1.jpg

    That’s pure genius! Very well made too.

    • Mr. Moho

      It appears that the image got deleted. Did anybody grab a copy? It was like the usual “Thanks for the info!” Buddy Jesus macro image, but with Rossi’s face professionally photoshopped on it. I guess that was a parody of Rossi who always thanks people on JONP for posting links, insights, information about random stuff.

      IMHO It wasn’t offensively funny, so I have no clue why the author deleted it.

  • Westreicher

    Time will come, when everyone will know
    that the Ecat technology has already been presented to the public in 2011

    I wonder how those people will feel
    which knowingly prevented this technique for years.
    Maybe in the future they are the criminals of the past?

    · Doubters and cowardly viewers with fear of change
    · Ignorant scientists believing earth is still a disc.
    · Lobbyists living only for their own beneficial
    · Politicians who do not represent the people, but money and the bank economy.
    · Media, which is bought from all the above.

    • AlainCo

      My view of the evil is different :
      – first evil is closed minded egotic physicist who think they know all
      – second arch-evil is administrators of science who repeat what the “authority” up there said
      – third the war dogs of science , like Huizenga and alike, who decided to be hero by attacking the dissenters, without any ethic, sure to be protected by the consensus. the Blackwater comando of consensus.
      – fourth the coward scientists who despite they know there is something, decide to save their career
      – fifth the media who know that they will be ridiculed, and decide not to cover the subject, or to cover it is a falsely balanced way, or to repeat the consensus

      the corps for know have tried to industrialized LENR.
      they missed because they were too conservative and unlucky.
      they abandoned after million lost in just plain basic science (proving that it is real, with huge scientific COP above 2 like F&P , but at low temp).

      the corps and the government, except few, follow
      – the media first (wikipravda, sciam)
      – the science official : Science/Nature oligarchy, the scientific officials (from tokamak industry often)

      I have report, similar to what Stremmenos told about the beginning of Defkalion.
      at first greek Politician were very positive about E-cat, then suddenly all stopped. they were probably “advised” by Scientist.

      Hagelstein told the same. He have very interested investor, then colleagues at MIT contacted his potential investor, and all stopped.

      I know some actor who contacted some politician in charge of some territory.
      It was working well, then all contact stopped and no answers…

      Politicians are victims of scientists, or more probably of scientific parrots and administrators.

      Without any hate nor sense of revenge, but with the logical idea that you have to put “flesh in the game” on that side of the risk, ie in blocking good science by fear of being accused of bad science,
      I would propose to make a Nuremberg Trial against LENR opponents.

      at least to ruin their ego and reputation (their most valuable asset).
      – First list how stupid were there arguments… show that scientifically they are incompetent.
      – then show all the nasty and awful manipulations they did, breaking all rules of honor. Covering them with the horse manure they broadcasted
      – finally show how far they were wrong (not a fair argument, but it works).

      As taleb says, I trust more someone looking for money, than someone looking for honor.

      I don’t want again that kind of tragedy…
      It is not an accident but a classic event.
      http://amasci.com/weird/vindac.html

    • bachcole

      – and those meanie heads who disbelieve every (seemingly) crackpot and scam demonstration that comes along.

  • barty

    Frank, can you please ask again how the current state of the HydroFusion 1MW Plant is?
    They said the will set up an plant at a swedish industry company facility in fall 2013.

    Thank you!

    • ecatworld

      I have followed up on this with no reply to date. Will keep trying.

  • Omega Z

    FRANK

    AN ALTERNATIVE PATH.
    First—
    There was a State Rep. Bruce Tar. And Another, Don’t recall his name & likely one may find a couple others who already have shown interest.
    Find out Who was Primarily Responsible for the 60 Minutes, Cold Fusion is Hot again.

    Don’t bother with those who haven’t already expressed interest at this time. Focus on those who have.
    Let them do the job of convincing others. They have positions of power. People are more likely to listen.

    Obtain Contact Information for all the Above.
    But before contacting them, put together an Information pack.

    Elforsk should be 1st on the list. Their Very important given their stature
    Frank-you have their CEO’s contact information I believe.
    http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/10/communication-from-elforsk/
    Follow this with the most up to date version- arXix report.
    Include with it the participants & contact information for them if possible. Levi, Etc… Doesn’t need to be all, but the most important.
    I’d Include Robert Duncan as an Info source…

    But Keep it Short & to the point.
    Leave out all the hype. All the Fluff. This is not a sales pitch as such. It Is a Teaser. Remember these people are approached by people everyday trying to sell them on something.

    I thought you may be interested in the Advances in. etc, etc,

    Don’t Overload them with info, Don’t express urgency,
    These are busy people. Much on their Plates.To much Info is bad.
    Just enough to spur their already expressed interest. Leave them wanting more.

    Let them make their own connections subliminally. Don’t impose your own. Let them wonder, Is this politically important. Am I missing out on something of importance….Politically?

    You’ve given them contact info, they can check it out themselves.

    I would also prepare other information should they contact you personally. But again, Avoid Fluff & Hype. Just the facts. Others they can contact if they choose to follow up with you.

    I don’t know that I would use ECW as a contact. Maybe something more personal. Don’t know what would be best here. Using ECW could invoke the your personal gain view from them. A Legitimate business concern would be nice if you have such connections. A constituent with a concern of business planning for the future??? Open to suggestions.

    With the 60 minutes contact, It could be similar as above, but more of a Have you followed up, Is this becoming more certain kind of feel to it. What’s happening, Something that makes Them think there’s need to look in to it more. Let them come to this conclusion.

    Note That CBS caught a lot of Flack on this story. If they thought this was coming about, They may have pangs for Sweet Revenge. Told You So…

    The Best way to get someone to go along with your Idea is to make them think it was their Idea all along. And their left convincing you.

    Informational Ideas should the follow up with you.
    Like Maybe
    Hydro Fusion CEO Magnus Holm
    NyTeknik- Mats Lewan
    Don’t think I’d provide something to deep data wise. Let those closer to it provide that. Like Elforsk

    NOTE: Make Sure all contact info is actually accessible & any links work. It’s frustrating when they don’t. Unlike most of us, they wont try different tacs to make it work. They’ll just move on.

    • Omega Z

      CBS 60 minutes
      More Than Junk Science
      Cold Fusion Is Hot Again
      Produced by Denise Schrier Cetta
      http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4955212n

      • GreenWin

        Denise will win a Pulitzer Prize if she were to follow up on this 60 Minutes Report. CBS has displayed unusual courage in producing and airing these stories. The mainstream media that resists their handlers and functions as a free press – will receive galactic praise and prosperity.

    • Buck

      I also might suggest the following:

      >> Sidney Kimmel supporter of Kimmel Institute at Un of Missouri. He likely knows who currently supports or would be supportive of LENR at different environmental organizations.

      >> Brillouin’s attorney at Kilpatrick: they will be focused upon helping LENR go live. They may or may not be supportive depending upon their desire to be supportive of LENR in general. The same for Rossi’s partner.

      >> CELDF: they have organized grassroots community rights groups throughout the US where there has been a strong and fairly successful effort to prohibit fraking. They have a very strong environmental focus and are anti Big Corporations. LENR would be a natural.
      >> MFMP: coordination with their efforts would likely be beneficial
      >> Vortex L: coordination with their knowledge would likely be beneficial
      >> Mark Gibbs: coordination with his knowledge would likely be beneficial
      >> Editor of OilPrice: coordination with his knowledge would likely be beneficial

      • Omega Z

        Some of this Info could be provide should they Follow up with Frank.
        It’s Not information I would include in a 1st contact. You risk information overload or agenda driven attitudes. Intent is to avoid any negative back lash towards the messenger. Just interest.

        Providing Info of Elforsk is Important as it’s an Energy consortium of sorts with Automatic Recognition & Credibility. The 3rd party report Supported by “Elforsk” is important as to results & persons who have direct contact with Rossi & the E-cat.
        I include Robert Duncan to open them to a wider field including Kimmel & the Skinner institute should they actually investigate this Info.

        The Status of a Politician could possibly learn far more then any of us And that knowledge could be very persuasive coming from credible sources as listed. And that is the Intent. To make sure their well informed of the facts.

        The only down side is we may never know if they follow up on this information.

        • Buck

          OZ, your original posting left me unsure as the the intent of the outreach. I made the assumption that the purpose was to establish connections for some sort coordinated lobbying effort.

      • Buck

        Here is another organization fully focused on the need to address climate change.
        This agency is suggestive of other aid agencies (Red Cross for example) which directly deal with the consequences of climate change.

        Agency: United Kingdom’s Disaster Emergency Committee
        LINK>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24975106

  • roseland67

    No LENR lobby is needed.
    Simply install one, anywhere, make heat, electricity,etc.
    Open the facility for all to see, inspect, review, discuss etc.
    NOT disassemble!
    Do a live internet video feed on u tube.
    IF if works as many have suggested, (and I’m hoping it does),
    global companies, (mine included), will get in line with
    trucks full of money to be part of it.
    Congress is buried under an avelanche of “do it now or your out”
    phone calls and email from their constituencies.
    This costs virtually 0$ and gets immediate global attention.
    Even EXXON is not big enough to shut down the inernet.
    In Chicago, I wait, impatiently.

    • bachcole

      Frankly, Frank and all, I am with roseland67.9 on this one. Although unlike him I have no trouble believing, if Rossi and Defkalion and Brillouin et. al. want believing attention, they could do exactly what rosebud666 [meant in the nicest possible way] suggests. It is obvious that they don’t want a lot of attention, or else they would be doing this. Andrea could hire Frank with body and E-Cat guards to set one up in front of Rockefeller Center and put an end to the disbelief. Unlike rosebuddy, I don’t think that this casts doubt on the reality of the E-Cat. It just tells me that they don’t give a fig about a lot of public attention at this time. So, I am not interested in pursuing lobbying Congress. In fact, my congressman’s interns treat me like I am suggesting that they pay more attention to UFOs when I try to bring up the subject.

    • US_Citizen71

      Such an open demonstration currently exists on the MIT campus. What has it changed?

      • roseland67

        US_Citizen,
        Creating what? a few milliwatts of heat, maybe???
        IF the process works as stated, it should work for BOATLOADS of heat,
        correct? Yes or no?
        Of course yes.
        Now, which is going to get the attention of the masses, a few milliwatts
        in a test tube, where measurement errors, even if untrue,
        can be cited and doubt raised?
        Or, as I suggested, boiling water on live video, turning a turbine
        and making electricity?
        Which one?? MIT or mine?
        Of course mine, scale matters.
        Do it my way, and, if LENR actuallys works as stated,
        it is irrefutable, the world changes over night.
        But I expect, some will find a way to somehow justify this
        insanely, ridiculously slow process that Rossi is going through
        simply because they want to believe it works so badly,
        to even question the alternative is sheer heresy.
        Stop making excuses why you can’t,
        and figure out a way you can.
        How CAN Rossi do it, not reasons/excuses why he can’t do it.
        Untold amounts of pain, misery and suffering can be
        obliterated if LENR works and can be scaled up.
        This is WORLD altering and you’re defending a
        few milliwatts in a test tube.

        • Omega Z

          Actually, There are a lot of Videos out there that look real. A live feed could also.

          Only a hands on would convince most people.
          That’s what the 3rd party is supposed to do, But no doubt, this still wont convince everyone.

          So- We’re stuck waiting for the Hot-Cat to be completed & matched to a Turbine put into Real World Use.

          There is Nothing Rossi can do until then. Even then you’ll find some hold outs. Of Course then none of them or their opinions will matter.

          I Repeat, There is Nothing Rossi can do to speed this up. Divulging all he knows, Nothing. Research takes time.

          • GreenWin

            Gents, we all will accomplish more on this board by ignoring the last ragged fringe of pathoskeps who cling to rational materialism. They twist and turn desperate to keep their FUD ops on track. At the point where Newton/Darwin/Dawkins (i.e. “consensus”) rationalists confess their stupefying ignorance of 95% of their universe – they will take a baby step toward enlightenment. Until then, they are self-inflated pontificates clinging to a threadbare security blanket called “science.”

        • bachcole

          Believe it or not, rosebud, and I mean that in the most insightful way possible, not everyone sees the life and the world as you do. I know that this will come as a big surprise to you. Has it occurred to you that another explanation for the behavior of Rossi, Defkalion, and Brillouin is they don’t see things the way that you do. Perhaps they don’t care about being celebrities. Or perhaps they have enough funding and work and don’t need anymore.

          Bottom line: May 2013 Levi is true and human nature hasn’t changed, and LENR+ will happen. If it doesn’t fit your timetable, then boo woo.

        • US_Citizen71

          You’ve answered my question by ignoring it, because it hasn’t made any difference. Any scientist, news organization or reporter can walk in and see it, check it hidden for wires etc., examine it, touch it and even be told how to recreate it, but yet he still can’t get physicists from across campus to even view it. Scaling up to the level you suggest requires money and lots of it, where is that going to come from? As for excuses what excuses am I making, I simply stated a fact.

          • roseland67

            You’re digging your heels in here defending an indefenseable position and it’s just going to get worse.
            Rossi’s January 2011 demo had MAYBE $ 100 worth of plumbing parts and another $100 worth of controls and NI 58 and it created 16 kw of continuous power.
            That is not a lot of money, for anyone, especially MIT.
            Again, IF the process works as stated and is scalable, why doesn’t MIT build
            a 16 KW Ecat and run it continuously on their web cam?
            It’s the size of a tabletop.
            Hell, their engineering dept. could do it in a day for less than beer money.
            Just think about that for a minute, 1 minute.
            16000 watts/120 volts will trip every breaker in the auditorium,
            no tricks there. Again, IF it works as stated, Rossi will be buried in $$$$
            by every energy company in the world wanting a piece of the action,
            INCLUDING MIT.
            It DOES NOT require a lot of $
            Scale it up, end all of this BS,
            Rossi becomes richer than Warren Buffet,
            and as I mentioned before, untold amounts of pain misery and suffering
            across the planet can be drastically reduced.
            What were seeing in the Philipean islands are a perfect example.

            • US_Citizen71

              I’m not sure what windmill your tilting but I have not mentioned Rossi once in this discussion, I am referring to Dr Peter Hagelstein, why do you keep bringing up Rossi?

              http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/02/cold-fusion-now-reports-on-mits-cold-fusion-101-course/

              I have no idea what Rossi is doing but Hagelstein lays it all out in the open. He has seen a COP of up to 14 in his demonstrations, that are open to the public and to those that take his class in cold fusion. If a 14 COP isn’t enough to get academic attention I don’t know what is.

              To make a stand alone self sufficient system you need a far bigger system than 16kw of heat. Efficiency in the Carnot cycle comes with scale. The 16kw demo by Rossi you refer to was heat not electricity out, as someone in the power generation world you should understand the difference.

              Depending on the size of the auditorium you refer to 16kw may only account for the lighting.

              40w florescent tube x 4 per fixture x 100 fixtures = 16000w

              • roseland67

                Censorship? on on engineering blog?
                wow.
                good night, safe travels

  • ilk

    Have a look at this page.

    http://www.superconductors.org/rtsc2mkt.htm

    I’m not sure what’s going on, but seemingly all large organizations in the US, private or public are not interested in anything truly new or potentially useful.
    Maybe this is not so surprising. For a long time now, America has been declining as a manufacturer of real goods. If it’s not mediocre software or government paperwork, we’re not interested in producing it. There is some real research and engineering done, but notice that it’s mostly done in the service of big defense or big pharma, all essentially government agencies.
    I know some will disagree, but the last thing we need is promising technology like LENR to disappear into the black hole of some federal agency, endlessly studied to death or sequestered by the intelligence “community” as a threat to national security. To be useful in the real world, a good idea must prove itself in the “private sector” or what is left of the free market. Big Finance / Big Corporate / Big Government are not your friends. Lobbies are dishonest because the political process is dishonest.

    Only honest people who see the value and are willing to invest their time and their money can produce a truly successful product.
    I know this is idealistic. I can only hope for the future.

    • E_man

      I have the same quetions. Why so big apathy to this milestone discovery. If I find some ceramic plate with printed one circle of this superconductor for available price, I could buy it immediately only to play wit my grandchildren. An todays superconductor temperature is 48°C!

      • bachcole

        Perhaps they have a credibility problem.

        • ilk

          The data presented at superconductors.org may or may not be valid as it has not been independently verified. However, there are reports (also unverified) from Germany and Japan of room temperature superconductivity in specially prepared graphite. This is bleeding edge research and I should have done more homework before using it as an example of unwarranted supression. Thanks bachcole for maintaining a rational skepticism.

  • E_man

    Admin. I do not understant You. Did You ever ask Mr.Rossi why he does not prove function E-cat under all doubts? Nobody wants his secret, only easy delta energy input, barell water with delta Temp and delta time (as somebody else said here)-measurment under all doubts..
    Did You ask some of 7 physicists if they are conviced about function Ecat under all doubts?
    Why they do not discuse with us? The comunity more then thousand peple is not big enaugh for them?
    Can peepople from MFMP say, that Flaischman-Pons efect is prove under all doubts?

    • bachcole

      I have no doubts whatsoever that LENR and LENR+ are real.

      • E_man

        Have You proof under all doubts?

        • bachcole

          Your English is strange. Perhaps your doubts are not my doubts. The May 2013 Levi Report killed off all of my doubts as to the reality of LENR+. Controllability, marketability, safety, these are another matter and merely solvable engineering problems

          • E_man

            Sorry for my English. I do not want serch long, how to say it correct.

            • bachcole

              I apologize for getting impatient. To tell the truth, I didn’t think that you were a non-English speaker. I couldn’t figure out whether you were trying to say something else or just decided to be weird. It did not occur to me that your native language was not English. So, I guess your English is pretty good, or else I am an idiot, or both. (;->)

    • ecatworld

      I am satisfied with the evidence Rossi and the independent testers have revealed over the years — Personally I am fully convinced by the evidence — the Levi report being the strongest I have seen. I have learned that Rossi and his associates will do what they have decided to do, and asking for further proof won’t change their strategy.

      • E_man

        I believe too, but can Levi say “I’m conviced about it under all doubts”?

        • bachcole

          People don’t say “I’m convinced about it under all doubts.” They say “I’m convinced about it without any doubt.”

          I wouldn’t know. I haven’t talked to him. And I don’t care. If he isn’t completely convinced then that is his fault, not the fault of the testing.

          • E_man

            Thanks for answers.

  • bachcole

    There isn’t yet enough money. We can’t even support MFMP yet.

    • Fortyniner

      Spot on.

      The kind of ‘lobbying’ that brings results in political circles requires virtually unlimited coin – generally only available to multinational corporates. At the moment the nuclear ‘lobby’ will probably be focusing significant funds on making sure that CF does NOT put in an appearance at this juncture, by ‘lobbying’ politicians, fielding a small army of shills and probably by interfering with certification processes. It seems very unlikely that anyone outside the energy cabal would be able to put together enough ‘influence’ to offset this pressure.

      Also, its questionable whether any actions by politicians are likely to speed LENR along and it may be best if no attempt is made to involve them at this stage. When the energy producers decide the time is right to field their CF technology the politicians will come to heel quickly enough.

  • GreenWin

    A very effective lobby would be the climate folks. However to date they publicly refuse to embrace the solution. As the Elforsk-Levi report is available to the entire climate community including layers of government, NGO foundations, funds, activists, lobbyists – it is perplexing that not a single “environmental” organization has supported LENR.

    Led to the oasis… they die of thirst.

    • AlainCo

      it is only because they motive is not climate or environment.

      it is for some selling their science of prediction, using big buck, big prize, nice travels.
      for others it is selling their wind mill or their glassy roofs, for big bucks, using big subsidies
      for some it is pushing us to abandon our evil comfort and go back to the purity of starvation and scarcity.
      for some it is getting political power…

      • GreenWin

        Yes, I tend to agree Alain. These big green outfits are politicians with fancy planes, lots of exotic junkets, and little accomplishment for the environment. LENR means they’re out of a very cushy job. And, the longer it takes them to support and endorse LENR, the deeper into inept agenda the public will perceive them – jeopardizing their donor base.

    • Buck

      GW, on another thread you implied that in a private meeting last May 8th between POTUS and the leaders of the US Utilities some issues where tied together: the large pending retirement of coal fired power plants, Brillouin’s plans to purchase a retired plant and install LENR as a power source, and Obama’s Executive Order authorizing the installation of CHP units in these retired plants. You implied this but would not state this as an outright fact.

      If your implication is true, then I argue that POTUS has done exactly that which you say none have done. Obama presented a large open door to LENR without coming right out and saying so. Arguably, POTUS has adroitly done for the environmental cause what you say none have done; he has started the process of taking on the existing $5T energy industry in a fashion contrary to your desires of having a Horatio at the Bridge.

      I suggest it is prudent that the LENR community be realistic. Taking on Big Oil/Gas/Coal is a politically and economically risky business. For any to come out and OPENLY affirm the reality of LENR at this point in time is to invite ridicule that could swell to a form of social disenfranchisement or political suicide.

      Does this sound reasonable GW?

      • GreenWin

        The May 8th meeting with utility execs may well have been a heads up on an LENR plan. The CHP order came earlier, if I recall. Neither of these prevents GreenPeace, Sierra, WWF, NRDC etc. from an orderly series of public acknowledgments that radical new technologies are on the horizon – and that should they deliver clean, green abundant energy at very low cost, it will greatly benefit people and the environment. This requires a break with status quo, and courage to lead.

        • Buck

          GW, I appreciate your sentiment. When I look at the following environmental organizations below, they all speak of the need to address in their own manner the consequences of fossil fuels and importance of renewable energy.

          Being more optimistic, they may be open to being approached at a particular phase of LENR introduction, for example during the expanding public discussion of the power plant retrofits. If they were approached by a Sidney Kimmel type with an extensive presentation and demonstration, they might conclude it is now appropriate to focus upon LENR.

          http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/
          http://content.sierraclub.org/coal/
          http://www.nrdc.org/issues/
          http://www.wwf.org/
          http://www.celdf.org/
          http://www.momscleanairforce.org/

          • GreenWin

            Buck, I respect vision for big green adoption of LENR , yet wonder why it takes a deep pocket financier like Sid Kimmel to open their minds. Real, true, honest environmentalists are competent at following beneficial technology. But there is a disease in Big Green, just as in the climate gang. LENR discards “Cap N’ Trade” as a Wall Street scam. It shames the science orthodoxy for 23 years of hubris, ignorance and fear of fiefdom failure. For the organizations you link to to save face and the lifeblood of donor support, they MUST put LENR on their agenda. Failure to do so confirms their commitment to greed, and hubris in lock step with orthodoxy.

            • Buck

              GW, an odd thing has occurred to me as I respond to you. We, the LENR community, can easily point to the opposing sides (Big Oil/Gas/Coal and Big Green) as being caught up in the daily dramas of their existing jobs and can characterize each as being mired in selfish narrow minded behavior.

              We are better served by approaching the problem mindfully, with compassion and understanding of the their respective positions. It will be easier for us to intuit a reasonable practical solution without the fog of dissatisfaction and churning emotions. We are better served by being Statesmen rather than Politicians for the LENR cause.

              Regarding the synergy between Big Green and LENR I agree; LENR is a natural for the Green agenda. But how to get their attention.

              I suggest someone like Sid Kimmel because he is accomplished, worthy of respect, and openly vested in LENR implementation in an unbiased neutral manner. His $5M for the UOM LENR institute shows all of the above as well as the real possibility he already has fairly high connections with some of these Big Green organizations. Further, as a business manager, he likely has an understanding of Strategy, Marketing, Public Relations, Legislative relations, conflict, compromise, and the consequences of primal competition with strongly vested business interests.

              Who will actually come to be the industry leader, I’ve no clue. But, IMO LENR implementation will be aided by a coordinated effort.

            • AlainCo

              cap’n trade is dead… zombie.
              new bubble is greenergy: renewable and storage. renewable and storage are negative energy sources if you integrate all, and CO2 source (you can simply see it because they cost, and money is energy thus CO2).

              today green agenda is in fact pushed by greenergy businesses.
              in finance cap&trade is dead but sustainable development fashion is the new meme bubble to shave the sheep.

    • US_Citizen71

      The climate folks don’t want a solution they want their solution. Cap and Trade. Or at least the money behind the movement does. Efficiency and new energy solutions should be their buzzwords but that is not what you hear on the news or in proposed legislation very often. The biggest string that could have been pulled in the US was national security over the last decade. A very real and poignant case for energy independence through renewable means being a major national security concern could have and should have been made. But it wasn’t because it would have made money for the wrong people in my opinion.

  • AlainCo

    Organization like LENR-Cities, which are business ecosystems, may be host for such lobbies.
    Problem today is they are still very small, but it can grow very quickly, super-exponentially.
    My little finger says me it is already working, but with difficulties.

    Citizen/political/ethical groups may also be more efficient in fighting ideological groups against lenr.

  • Allan Shura

    As was the reply from the British government to the effect that they have a working relationship and work with the energy industry on proposals but not a single proposal has been made for project by a cold fusion industry group. The observation made by Frank is accurate and important.
    The existing established advocacy groups have funding
    and may not be as knowlegable about recent developments
    in LENR/cold fusion. What would be the most effective is
    the formation of groups that are more focused to the technology and this would be new organizations or the
    prioirity shift in green groups.

  • Private Citizen

    Once unequivocally proven real, LENR would be championed by many powerful existing environmental lobbies.

    • GreenWin

      No. University Missouri Research Chancellor Dr. Robert Duncan has made it abundantly clear to all but those refusing to acknowledge the data – the anomalous heat effect is real and replicable. The refusal to minimally start there and fund widespread R&D is a failure of intelligence. Good news is, that failure is being corrected.

      • bachcole

        People are afraid.

        • GreenWin

          Agreed. Maybe that’s why Dennis Cravens demo utilized brass spheres – hint???

    • Omega Z

      Exclude the Environmental Groups.
      Their Hierarchy is corrupt.
      They bring in huge sums of money & have grown accustomed to their lifestyle. Rubbing elbows with some of the Elite. Those few who aren’t corrupt are soon pushed out.

      They want only small, miniscule improvements. Only enough to keep their movements going & the Money Flowing.
      Just Look at Charities that bring in millions every year, but spend only a few 100 thousand on the cause. You find few that are true to their cause.

      It is their Membership you need to attract. To Infiltrate if you please.
      Some of those are Screaming Fanatics who would just as soon wipe out the Human Race. BUT, Most are just average people with reasonable concerns wanting reasonable changes. And for the Most part, Don’t even know their being used, manipulated & Propagandized, many times in ways that are detrimental to All.

      Problem is, Those membership names are highly prized & protected.
      Obtaining the names & getting their attention would be problematic.
      If it could be accomplished, A lobby could be formed & these people are already motivated. They would contribute funding.
      This would be quite complex & likely slow to happen if it happened at all.

  • Kim

    When the instructions to build this device are common to all men.

    We need a device that can be built for 25$
    and demonstrates directly to the common brain the abundance.

    The elite would crap ther…

    Respect
    Kim

    • GreenWin

      Fancy pants??

  • Colibric41AC

    Don’t need lobby need

    proofproofproofproofproof
    then mega big buzz

    dont be stupid

    • Fortyniner

      Blunt – but probably accurate.

      • bachcole

        Whenever I used to hear people talk about “free energy” and conspiracies to suppress it, I would always say that if it is so free and so great then why aren’t they powering their homes with it and then sell the energy back to power company and so on. Just expand from one’s own home and eventually take over that particular energy utility. Perhaps LENR will come to that. If no one believes Rossi et. al. they could just start their own power plant and sell energy to whoever wants it at 1/10th the usual cost.

        • AlainCo

          You think right, but there is a detail.

          To start to really develop a real reactor, you need money.

          and people with money often are not scientists who experiences LENR (except rossi, but not much).

          To talk to an investor you need to pass his advisors, his prejudices, his education, his newspapers…

          what is happening today is that this process is slowly happening…99.9% of investors did not even consider LENR.

          0.09% yet interested were badly advised and get away (some local authorities, some corps, PASOC, Hagelstein ex-investor).

          0.009% asked for strong evidence and wait for the final perfect reactor (shhh.. most are.discrete. Elforsk)

          0.0009% decided to take the risk with moderate investment.(LENR-cars,NI)

          0.00001% bet their fortune (Defkalion,Rossi).

          it is not much, but it will be enough to do the job in few years

          you idea is also true for the home reactor. if nobody accept to develop cheap electricity, people will push innovators to develop a home reactor. immediately the utilities will try to bloc competition, which will finally fails, and they will either die, or adapt and sell cheap electricity (because no doubt they can better than home recator).

  • Marc Ellenbroek

    Because LENR will cause a paradigm change in the world and will also cause a tremendous shift in power. Therefore many will obviously appose LENR. One would think that countries with power-monger would be the first to develop LENR, but for some reason that has not happened yet. I am sure those who support LENR fight a lost game if they want to lobby based on the existing evidence. At this moment it will be very difficult to find a well-known and honored scientist willing to sacrifice his career for LENR. Only a public demonstration of a LENR device, clearly generating nearly unlimited power and accessible for verification may give LENR the push upward. So let us wait for E-cat, Hyperion and Brillouin to do just that.

  • maozhijie

    I setup a new website for Chinese, the website is http://www.lenr.com.cn. I also hope every body can concern the cold fusion since it will benefit all of us.

    • artefact

      The page looks good.

    • Bruce Williams

      Excellent !(Although I cant read a word of Chinese). I have sent this website to a Chinese friend from university 50 years ago, hopefully he will encourage others to take interest.

      • maozhijie

        Thanks Bruce Williams.

    • bitplayer

      Thanks for setting up the site.
      Do you have a link to lenr-canr.org?

      (Google translate works, at least some.)

      • maozhijie

        yes ,I have link to the Lenr-canr.org. Google can not do many of the translation work. I have to take some time to correct the translation one by one.

    • SiriusMan

      Awesome work! Since this discussion is about the need for LENR lobby groups, I think this new website is definitely on the right path. How about a lobby group of 1.4 billion people?!