Rossi on Safety

The following is a comment by Andrea Rossi in response to a question by Journal of Nuclear Physics reader ‘Duke Nukem’ about when which products would be available:

You wrote many times that your job now is to complete a long and rigorous plan of validation and R&D of the E-Cat. Does this plan affect your commercial strategy? Are still the 1 MWE-Cats for sale? And the Hot Cats ? What about the domestic E-Cats?


Andrea Rossi actually answered the question twice. First he responded:

1- I do not decide the commercial strategy, which anyway is not changed substantially, as far as I know.
2- The Hot Cats are not yet for sale
3- The domestic E-Cats did not obtain the safety certification, which is necessary to put them for sale.

Later in the day he provided a more extended answer:

Duke Nukem:
It is Saturday evening and I have some minute to answer better to your comment regarding the production and safety derivatives.
The opportunity to bring LENR to market has long been a dream. The more I work with my US Partners, the more I learn about the diverse needs and plans needed to achieve success. As I’ve said previously, my focus, in my position of chief scientist, continues to be on the testing and development work. I do not know when my work will be completed, but when we will have consolidated results, they will be shared with the scientific community by means of publications, whatever the score, positive or negative as it might be.
It is vital all testing be done throughly and in consideration of the requirements of the market. This process continues and we utilize the results to inform our ability to bring the different features of our technology to the market. There is a significant number of factors to consider in this process, so we remain focused on the task. Such task encompasses also the extremely important issues concerning safety: safety is an essential requirement and any product can be put in market only after the safety certification has been reached.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Reading between the lines here a little, it seems to me that Rossi is growing up in terms of understanding what is required for commercial success. I would expect that the partner has given Rossi a sober look at the steps that are needed to get products to market, and to protect intellectual property, and it doesn’t sound like they want to rush things. There was a time when Rossi was optimistic about having his domestic E-Cats on the market by now, working in homes around the globe — but I guess he came face-to-face with the requirements of certifiers and regulations, and now it sounds like the domestic units are on hold for quite a while.

Safety, of course, is going to be one of the main factors upon which this technology will be judged. One accident through a faulty design, inadequate materials or any other possible flaw will set back his work for a long time, so anyone supportive of the E-Cat must realize the necessity of the lengthy safety tests that are taking place.

It must be frustrating for inventors to have to jump through all the required hoops before they can realize his dream of seeing his E-Cats operating in the marketplace, but it doesn’t sound to me like Rossi is complaining. He is a disciplined person who, I am sure, will do all the necessary work before him to give the E-Cat the maximum chance of success.


  • MikeP

    What I don’t understand is the following. The world is a big place. Surely there is at least one place in the world where one can run a plant without any particular certifications and with sufficient control to maintain trade secrets. Such a plant could be used both for demonstrations and to aid in satisfying regulatory hurdles elsewhere. Such a plant could facilitate and quicken the path to market. Why does such a plant not exist?

    • Omega Z

      Build an E-cat where no oversight exists & if something goes wrong no problem. We could do that for drug testing to. You know. To speed up the process to market.

      Apologies. I’m sure you don’t mean that extreme, but we need to be careful what lines we cross. Good intentions sometimes have dire consequences. Rossi’s aware of this & wont circumvent the system & wont run the risk.

      Aside from that, Tests are being run. No matter how much money or people you throw at this, It will take about the same amount of time regardless. The Key here is patients. Some things can’t be sped up.

      Tests for longevity can’t be avoided. No one will invest huge sums of money in an Electrical Generating E-cat just to find out 6 months later- It’s useless. This is only cheap energy if it is sustainable. They will want to run these tests long enough to eliminate many negative possibilities including safety. Truth. You wouldn’t be a happy camper if every week include an extended blackout due to unforeseen problems.

      Rossi likely already has most of the answers, but probably not all of them.
      And a Business will want their own test data Regardless. Putting these in the market means Their neck is on the Line. Rossi’s previous knowledge will merrily allow them to prevail much sooner then without it as Rossi can guide them avoiding dead-ends he has already experienced.

      Note: Remember this is nothing but an efficient heat source. Coupling to generate Electricity is an entirely different project. Matching as well as possible to existing Turbines & likely much tweaking of both systems for efficient Electricity Generation.

      This is an entirely new technology. How it reacts when heat is pulled/drawn from it may be different & more complex then existing technology. It may even differ from the Low temp E-cat.

  • Bob

    Frank, can you ask Rossi (or possibly Prometeon) about the following:
    A)Prometeon seems to have Ecats for sale on thier website. Are cold cats truly available?
    B)Prometeon was going to have a cold cat on pulbic display this year in partnership with some public company. What is the status on this.
    C) What is the current relationship with Rossi/Leonardo Corp. and Prometeon?
    D) What of the “past” Ecats sold and delivered? Over the past couple of years, Rossi himself stated that at least (3) had been sold and delivered with at least one to give results after installation. One was supposedly a military customer, but we have not heard much from that angle. Can you ask Rossi at least to give a recap of the number of installed and running ecats?

    I realize we do not have an “constitutional right” to have any information from Rossi. However, he was the one that published information about ecat shipments and sales etc. He should not have an issue with someone asking him to recap the current status of his own statements he made from the near past.
    Thank you!
    Bob

    • ecatworld

      Hi Bob,

      I sent an inquiry to Aldo Proia of Prometeon earlier this year, and this is was his response — I don’t think I would get much of a different reply if I asked again:

      Dear Frank,

      I am very sorry, but I cannot provide information, especially in these months, on the business model, the American partner and so on, since most of these topics are strictly confidential.

      Prometeon is now well organized, but for a technological product going from the labs to the market requires always much time, and this is more obvious for a revolutionary new product like the E-Cat. However Rossi and his coworkers did not encountered major obstacles, so work is going on well and I think that we will see the first civilian facility this year.

      Also the research, partially made here in Italy, is going on in these months because there is great room for performance improvements, especially for some versions of E-Cat. So, it is not possible to predict the time required to move from the laboratory to the prototypes and then to a larger production. If you ask to an engineer, he will explain why all this is not a matter of days or weeks.

      Please consider also that every serious company, in this phase, would not provide any new relevant information and that we are only distributors, so it is not our task to provide news before and/or instead of Leonardo Corp and his American partner. Of course, we will inform the public when the time is ripe.

      Best regards,

      Aldo Proia

      Regarding the military E-Cat plant, I believe there was only one delivered. The other plant was the one shipped to the US earlier this year. As far as I know, there have only been those two completed and in use.

  • artefact

    If Rossi turned the offer from Ansaldo Energia down then they probably looked for the next best candidate. Maybe we see them in the future selling DGT technology…

  • wonderboy

    does anyone else think that the second response is too well written for Rossi? It appears to be written by a PR or admin staff, I’m sure with his review. Does anyone think I’m crazy? I think it would be a good sign as it would indicate better resources at his fingertips.

    • Rene

      I believe the first comment was Rossi and the 2nd comment was his corporate ghost writer. The second comment is completely out of style and cadence with how Rossi communicates, and it has all the earmarking of corporate PR, down to the spin. I have seen a number of his ‘responses’ have the ghost writer taint, not sure if its; good or bad, but I suspect it is that his corporate partners are indeed very concerned about impressions, enough to do some editing.

    • Omega Z

      I totally agree. Also as with everything Rene posts.
      This is a ghost writer with only some essence of Rossi.
      As In:
      I Am Andrea Rossi and I Approve this message. :)

      Yes, I think this is a Good Sign.
      I’ve posted according to my own real life experience in these things that I don’t expect much in Info prior to July/August.
      Rossi stated the hope of August/September.
      In Rossi’s statement, I would (assume) this is a Group Think of probability based on their present accomplishments & how things are progressing at the present. But even Rossi’s statement left the door open to this estimated time to slide a little. It’s just the nature of development.

  • Patrik

    It is strange that he doesn’t mention certification procedures in for example Europe och US. I believe that every heating device that is used outside a laboratory in Europe (EU) should have some certification. It could be according to the Gas appliance directive, the machine directive or the pressure directive. So, I assume that no e-cat is sold and used outside a laboratory in the EU. I wish he could be more specific and point at the critical topics instead of general wording that actually does not say anything. A CE certification of a gas boiler in Europe include for example emission measurement, check of the various safety devices etc. Why is is not elaborating on this?

    • Omega Z

      Only the Low temp E-cat has been C.E. certified for industrial use.
      That would be electric powered. The Hot-Cat is still very much in R&D. This would include the work on the Gas version.

      If there is a Hot Cat in Europe,(It’s Possible) It would likely be in one of the Partners facilities & also R&D. Still no Certification needed for this.
      I find this possibility plausible considering the Elforsk tests taking place.

      Unless of Course, Someone has seen Levi & Company here in the U.S. :)

      • Patrik

        I doubt that the certificate is a “real” CE mark. I rather remember it as a certificate regarding operation and safety documentation If we are talking about the same Italian document from last year. There is no special CE marking for industrial use as far as I know. The appliance is CE marked and can be used everywhere. A gas boiler for heating can be used in a single-family hosue and heating water for an industrial process if it is suitable.

  • Sean

    Unless it is certified? well the big oil people will say their system is safe!! Ha. Government oil / gas / electricity advisers to taxation, will require about 200 years of testing lets say. The buck (ECAT) stops there. However if somebody is developing a open for all to see and build ECAT, then it will be billions of us against a few of them, you know,, those bad meanies. All we need is the plans and bill of materials, plus a trip to our local hardware store. Surely there are parallel inventors of the ECAT or similar tracks. Open source is the solution. And we the people have power.

  • Jimr

    Dear Santa,
    All I want for Christmas is the name of the company that Rossi is associated with.

    I’m still concerned the company is not as large as contemplated. It needs to be capable of investing several million dollars per month into the testing and development of newer and larger models.
    Also someone suggested that Rossi would be retiring in 3 or 4′ years. That ain’t going to happen, if you know anything about Rossi, he will be involved until he is kicked out by the company or passes on.

    • Omega Z

      Jimr

      A snippet here, a snippet there, I still place my bet on Siemens.
      A snippet means nothing. 2 snippets is a coincidence, 3 snippets becomes interesting. 4 means pay close attention, etc..

      I know, Siemens is not a U.S. Company, It’s origins is German. But it is a U.S. Listed Entity & is actually an international Corporation. It’s single largest World footprint is in the U.S. both in facilities & man power. And they have every intention of increasing their U.S. Presence. Note, Many Americans think of them as a U.S. business. Which doesn’t mean much. I Mean Everyone knows that Nestles is a U.S. Concern, Right. Among many others. Only after all the news media Fuss with the spill, Did many realize BP actually stands for British Petroleum. Some are still confused.

      Anywho, Siemens Origin doesn’t fit explained. There is one other piece that tends not to fit unless investigated.
      Rossi’s call for an Efficient Sterling Engine generator. Siemens has it’s Own Sterling project. It does 20% efficient at best. However, Rossi was looking for something in the 30% plus efficiency range. There’s nothing available outside products in R&D. Nothing Market ready. Likely had something been found, Rossi’s partner would have bought them out.
      Note: Siemens also has it’s own CHP development.

      Note: While looking into this, I’ve discovered that G.E. Has been buying up independent CHP systems for years. Anything that’s looked promising & close to going to market. Some were questionable in cost/benefit, yet G.E. drastically increased the price anyway should you want one. That’s how you keep them out of the market. Available, but Suppressed by being unaffordable.
      Way to Go G.E. Your Everything I’ve come to expect from you.

      • bachcole

        The “pieces” may be deliberately bogus.

  • fred_bear

    I like blanco69′s question about the safety of the Hot Cat. Surely there is a willing buyer to operate such a device with a secure location as to limit harm while producing clean and abundant energy. Therefore, it is my conclusion that the delay allows the biggest players in the world a chance to shift policies and assets to again monopolize our energy. In the event that this technology doesn’t allow energy to be monopolized, be ware and start the fight right now to protect the water and keep it public.

  • bachcole

    From looking at the most recent maps, it looks like the typhoon veered north and narrowed just enough to miss my mother-in-law. Of course, lots of other people were not spared. The maps do not show how much rain she got, so I will have to wait for a full report from her.

    • Fortyniner
    • dickyaesta

      Hi Roger, hope she is right and much strength to her and you and yours.

      Thanks for your ultimate response, very, very nice :) I am by the way one of those flying dutchmen who lives in Spain. Suffering much with Spain and for Spain going through his worst recession and ‘poco’ light at the end of the tunnel,

      Ecats would help much to repopulate the center of Spain, whole villages for sale for virtual nothing now. Spain is very underpopulated accept for the big cities and the coast. Hopefully replant the forests from west to east, which trees the Spanish King Philip II used to build his ships to fight his many wars with the English and Dutch To no avail however, losing not only his warships, his forests and the gold that was plundered from the Americas. Leaving Spain since then always a step behind the rest of Europe, How beautiful it could be with its climate warmer then France underpopulated and a very rich and diverse flora and fauna with virtual unlimited water and energy, which it now lacks substantially!!

      Many times I am wondering if Spain and many countries, for that matter, really would bother much with extensive security concerns if they could get their hands on working Ecats now, The security one can fill in later. I know, I know: one cannot play with Lenr security in this part of its cycle, but then again, one can also exagarate!! How much can really go wrong that we donot know already?? Just a thought from Spain in 2013.

    • Bob Greenyer

      My partner and 5 month son has had heavy rain for two days 1 hour north of Hanoi, and it has not even hit yet.

      • bachcole

        I bet you could make her much happier if you married her. Women with young children are extremely keen about security. (:->)

        • Bob Greenyer

          I want to and have tried. New rules introduced June 2013 requiring me to have earned £19,600 mean I have not been able to bring her to UK. I did not in 2011-2012. I did in 2012-2013 however, they want the last 6 months bank statements, and in part, because of my commitments to MFMP I have not earnt enough. She also lost her mother, father, brother and son from a previous marriage last year, so she needs security more than most. I am doing all I can.

          • bachcole

            Thank you for not taking offense, and thank you for trying. I take it that these rules are UK rules. In the US, the one and only rule is a marriage certificate (that is for real).

  • blanco69

    This long term testing strategy has me baffled. IMO there would be two products, one, a low temp heating unit and a second high temp industrial unit for electricity generation. The first product, I agree, would require extensive safety certification but the hot cat product? Rossi says ‘The hot cat is not safe’. Well we’ve all seen it running and by that very fact it proves it’s already safer than a fission reactor core. So the hot cat safety story simply does not wash with me. Someone, in my view, is misleading us on this.
    Logic suggests that the first commecial LENR product will be found in a electricity power station and not at the end of a isle in Home Depot.
    As an aside, has anyone heard from Georgehants recently? I hope he’s OK.

    • Fortyniner

      What you say is true, especially the fact that a hot cat unit, even if potentially dangerous, is (vastly) safer than a fission core – which of course could never be considered for individual/local applications – and it is most likely that the first application will be in a power station.

      However, if testing reveals that under certain circumstances a hot cat could become hazardous (beyond just getting hot, of course), not only would that mean that it’s use would be limited to power corporations, but (as I’ve pointed out many times before) it might (depending on the nature of the hazard) also allow the technology to be classified as ‘nuclear’ and so covered by all the existing legislation pertaining to that. This would of course effectively create a monopoly in which only large corporates such as the existing nuclear fission people, and of course the military, would have control. Naturally, the LT technology would be swept up in the same move, whether or not it presents any similar hazards.

      As soon as that occurs, we can all wave bye-bye to portable and home heaters or generators, self-powering cars, vertical farms, portable desalinators and air conditioners, and all the other amazing stuff that could come out of this technology. CF reactors would then be rolled out in places and at times that will not threaten existing assets, including nuclear power stations, and the full force of state power would be available FOC to the power companies to enforce their monopoly and prevent the entry of any newer and better technologies. In short, if this turns out to be the direction of travel, cold fusion will likely be effectively stifled before it even has a chance to bloom.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        The world is not monolithic, however. It’s enough if one country or region allows home units, then others will follow because they can’t afford not to. I trust on countries’ mutual distrust.

      • bachcole

        I disagree with your conclusion. No matter how hard they try, eventually the secrets will get out. Hey, even Rossi might let the secrets out, and, yeah, they might sue him but that won’t do any good and Rossi will be famous and extremely happy.

        • Fortyniner

          Eventually, yes, but the indications seem to be that sustained and stable LENR is not an easy trick to perform, and there will be a lot of technical detail that is developed at great expense that will be protected for as long as possible. If it is only employed in power stations and similar, and physical and operational security systems are in use, this delay could be measured in decades.

          Secondly, if the technology is classified as nuclear, then anyone outside the initial monopoly that attempts replication, let alone manufacture, will probably have their door kicked in by armed police during the wee small hours, and will shortly find themselves banged up for a long time, just as they would if they had tried to assemble a fission reactor.

          • bachcole

            Just like how they pull guns on Amish farmers and Santa Monica greenies for the horrid crime of selling raw milk. All hail the crony-capitalist police state!

            • Fortyniner

              Looking in from the outside, some of the things that are going on in the US these days seem incomprehensible – until you work out who stands to gain. Then they just look plain sinister.

  • Pietro F.
    • SiriusMan

      Can you (or another Italian speaker) kindly summarize the comment for us? I’m afraid Auto-Translate is too clunky in this instance.
      I am rather interested in the reference to the Google barge made at the end…(?!)

      • Fortyniner

        Seconded – could any Italian speakers reading this provide a better translation please, even if its just the key points?

    • ecatworld

      Here’s the Google translated comment. The English is very garbled here, but the jist of it seems to be that someone is reporting that Rossi turned down an offer to partner with Ansaldo Energia (Italian Power company) preferring to work in the USA.

      X Cures
      better define this “affair Italian” Rossi .. Passerini 22passi of replicating his comment was unequivocal: “Let’s say that as a business owner turned down an offer of Ansaldo ridiculous and agreed that much better by USA …” In fact, she had said: “Our was willing to submit. … in a real industrial control without demanding anything except the protection of its trade secrets. I know because I’m the negotiated contractual framework …… I do not waste time arguing about how the engine is made ​​[a car] because it concerns the control of the service that is the only thing I want to buy. “Paying attention to: “subject to the protection of its trade secrets” … “Do not argue about how it made ​​the engine …… but the performance is the only thing I want to buy. “it seems to me that we have with that” his “contract, our trying to get their hands on some of Ansaldo million by selling the prestazini of heating the heat and closed its plant there. … without prospects for further development and commercialization? A po’limitato the whole it seems to me! Franco says it well: “I’m giants and to make them move, it takes tremendous efforts. I confirm that even before the availability demonstrations, the risk is not mitigated if not the complete control (including development) and knowledge of details. I fear that this …….. may have done stagnate and then fail the negotiation. ” words are clear, we do not take around with: “Common sense [in Ansaldo / Italy] is missing and also lacks the pragmatism.” to unload the blame on others .. . In the USA for a different (keep the family) our vendoto has EVERYTHING including the ability to develop and commercialize the many different systems. Quite a difference! … Maybe even with Ansaldo this should have been the type of contract to be proposed, with complete control of the future by Ansaldo.! .. It does not seem fair to blame Italians of incapacity, I think it was Rossi instead to make impractical the operation for the company that had its planning needs of investment and industrial development in front of banks, boards of directors, the Court of Auditors. etc.. etc … It looks natural and predictable so this act of prudent Ansaldo … But then “maliciously” are of the opinion that only the current situation could have been accepted there in USA: Rossi has always said that the reactor with dust has always been built there, only here screwdriver! “What they” appear to be the “core” of the system, let alone if he could be left in other hands … Italian …. come on! No regrets then, let us remember that perhaps our only came here to overcome the difficulties of the U.S. legislation for nuclear testing .. Rather we hope that Piantelli if / when I manage not already in a similar situation with its largest shareholder! PS What do you think of Google as an alternative to GE, already indicated at the beginning and now it seems to me under a lot of attention in the U.S. with his barge and its highly …http://24o.it

      • GreenWin

        This appears to reference Ansaldo Energia, a large power generation business associated with Rossi/LENR, recently sold to an Italian investment group (beating Korea’s Doosan Heavy, Siemens, and Samsung bids.) Much intrigue involved in this divestment of Italy’s defense giant Finmeccanica.

  • jousterusa

    I am not so confident the US partner has not been bought off by the electric-power establishment and is unnecessarily delaying the introduction to the market to allow utilities to gain the ability to copy the technology and bring it to the market themselves. The question of the domestic E-cats is almost moot: who would allow such a disruptive technology, capable of powering millions of homes off the grid, to ever get to market?

    • DavidW

      said exactly what i was thinking

    • BenW

      Rossi (62+) will probably retire within 2-3 year time and relinquish his chief scientist position to someone else. The Ecat will be “further developed” by a secret company……without proper patent protection, it is hard to conceive wide spread commercialization.

      • Omega Z

        Rossi’s M.O. is to work until he is no longer able to.

    • Miles

      Why should this technology which costs very little to run, ONLY to be controlled by these greedy utility companies?

    • GreenWin

      Rest assured there are more forces for good at work here than terrestrial energy conglomerates. :)

    • bitplayer

      “Who would allow…..”?
      The Chinese government.

      • SiriusMan

        ..or the Japanese, or Korean, or indeed any nation that currently depends on fossil fuel imports for its survival. For other countries that do not have robust power transmission grids in place, the use of distributed (domestic) E-Cats would be a great way to move industrialization forward quickly. It will be most interesting to see Western utility monopolies scramble to make excuses for why consumers should not have access to technologies that rapidly become widely available elsewhere..