“Smells Like a Hoax, But . . . “

This comment from ECW reader ‘Fabio’ was posted on an older thread, but I thought it was worth posting here for people to respond to. I think he raises a good question, and one that could be typical of people just being introduced to the topic.

Hi all, I’m a scientist in an unrelated field to physics, and I’ve been casually reading about Rossi’s E-Cat for the past hour or so. I must say that I’m very skeptical and I agree with those that say that this shows all the signs of a hoax. There is one thing though that bothers me, and maybe some of you can answer my question or give me pointers to forums where my question has been discussed:

If Rossi is hoaxer, then surely his competitors (I’ve heard about Defkalion and Brillouin) are hoaxers too, right? In particular Defkalion is a direct spin-off of Rossi’s ideas… so as a logical consequence of the hoax theory, someone in Defkalion must know about the trick behind the e-cat and must be repeating it in its own demonstrations. And what about Brillouin? http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/09/whats-the-google-brillouin-connec…

If it is a hoax, how come that the trick is spreading from company to company without being exposed by the (many!) who are interested in this?

  • Omega Z

    So you think that I should work hard, invest my income from this work into a machine/business that provides you a job & expect Nothing in return.

    Maybe I should keep my earnings & you can work hard to build a machine/business to provide yourself that job.

    As to Profit, A huge amount of profit from every product has to be made in order to pay those wages, Building cost, benefits, Etc.

    An owner needs to cover all that long before he gets a return on his investment. If sales don’t exceed a certain quantity, he loses money. Goes broke.

    That is a Fact. I Have lived it. I have been in business & during a downturn, My employees had a decent, Some with exceptional income while I had to take money from savings to live on & even put some into the business cash flow to keep it going. I could just as easily laid a couple of them off. And had things not improved I would have. Likely all of them. Short term, I in essence payed them to lose money.

    As to a return, Do you think a Farmer grows a crop, just to have enough seed to grow the next crop.

    No. He expects to produce excess so he can eat & live. And if he still has excess, he can use that as currency to trade for other goods which provides a job others.

    No Excess means no economics. No excess means no investment into things that create more jobs. You can’t build/expand anything if there is no profit/excess. It doesn’t matter what you want to purchase as a consumer if I haven’t the means to build it.

    You talk of machines replacing jobs.
    How many tons of ore can you shovel in a day.
    You don’t shovel a ton of ore, you shovel a ton of earth to maybe obtain a few pounds of iron ore. This means 2 things right off the bat. Few if any cars would ever be built & very few if anyone outside of government could afford 1.

    Without modern machines, Most things wouldn’t exist, and far more wouldn’t be affordable to anyone.

    Economic theories. None of them work. They all have major flaws. All of Them…

    The Smartest thing I ever heard come come out of an Economist mouth was- We Don’t Understand How It Works. He’s the Smartest man on the room.

    There best answer at this time.
    Build stuff with a predetermined obsolesce or fail point to keep people busy rebuilding all the time. Well, that don’t seem to be working.

    Imagine buying a house & the day after you pay it off, it suddenly collapses into a pile of rubble.

    NO, The best economic plan would be- Build things of value that last. Things that have a return. That return could in fact be that it lasts a lifetime but takes just a small portion of that lifetime to pay for it.

    This allows you to purchase other things instead of constantly replacing. You can accumulate things & once you have the basics of life, You can even have your extras. Your toys.

    Does this sound Materialistic. Sure does. it requires Material things to live & if you have enough Material things you can live better. Be Happy. Maybe. That depends on the individual. I know people who have a lot & are still miserable. People who have little can be joyous. It’s a frame of mind.

    But what I see a lot of is people who want, want, want, are seldom happy no matter what they have.

    As for your Marxist view, If I’m aware your going to take any & all of my excess labor. If I can’t have Profit/Excess. I Will Just Produce Less. Maybe so much less that they have to take away from you & give to ME.
    That is why you Dream will never come to be.

    What you Don’t realize is the present Capitalist System actually provides as much Socialism as will be tolerated by society.

    When a machine is used to double ones productivity, Much of that savings/excess is past on in cheaper prices, Thus You have been subsidized by my excess productivity. You can now afford something you otherwise may not have been able to. One could just as easily made the same income or more & just produced less. No reduction in the price of the product.

    Now. So you don’t think I’m totally heartless, If feel society has some obligations

    There are those more then willing to work & provide for themselves. If there are no jobs for them, We should help them until we can create an economic system that can provide them.

    There are those who do work, but the jobs they do can not produce enough income to provide a reasonable living. Like flipping burgers. Customers will only pay so much, then quit coming. No job at all. These people are trying. Supplement them until we develop a working model that provides a living.

    People who are Crippled up & just can’t provide for them selves. NOTE: Many so-called disabled people can work. They CHOOSE Not to. Create/reserve certain jobs for them & put them to work. Supplement them if it’s truly necessary. Otherwise they should do without.

    Then there are those who just refuse to work even if they have to lay down & die to avoid it. Provide them an absolute minimum to survive. Nothing Else. If they don’t like it. Tough, Go to work. If they complain they don’t have enough. Tough. Go to work.

    Everyone who is physically & mentally able, has an obligation to try & help themselves.

    Society has NO Obligation to help those who refuse to help themselves when they are physically & Mentally able.

    Even a drowning man has an Obligation to grab on to the Floaty when it’s tossed to him. He has no right to expect his rescuer to drown with him.

    • Buck

      I’m unsure who you are addressing with this. However, I do recognize you believe strongly in this.

      From my limited perspective, I think it fair to say that LENR implementation won’t impact you negatively given your stated belief. :>)

      • Omega Z

        This was a response to a post that was removed.

  • BillyGiuseppe Rosencrantz

    Wasn’t one of Rossi’s burly assistants named Fabio?

  • Redford

    I just want to remind you that you think you start without bias on any matter but actually you don’t. No one does. Social sciences despite all its flaws has proven beyond doubt some mechanics in decision making process both at individual and group level. One of them is Asch conformity experiment:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYIh4MkcfJA

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_experiment

    This has been redone in several way and the result is beyond doubt. Now I am not saying this behaviour mechanic is ultimately a good or a bad thing (even if for the need of the experience it had to be shown in an extremely bad scenario to be obvious). But it means that IF Rossi’s kind of news is disregarded where you live/work (and it probably is) you’ll have a strong bias agains it. Which doesn’t make it real, but it’s important to remember we don’t come with neutral take on this kind of question.

    Not to say there aren’t other possible bias, including positive ones. I don’t have an experience in mind but human history is full of people indulging themselves into wishful thinking. 😛

    • Omega Z

      Much probably has to do with pre-programming by society.

      Such as, If it sounds to good to be true-
      It’s impossible, over & over,
      Can’t, can’t can’t

      And, throw in a possibility that it may make you or your job obsolete-

    • Roger Bird

      I am always amused when someone says “assume makes an ass out of u and me”. Werner Heisenburg would disagree, and so would I. EVERY statement has implicite assumptions, and at some point of digging deeper and deeper these assumptions become unproveable except my faith or direct experience. You can’t talk without assumptions. And different assumptions will land two or more people on to a contintuum from a struggle to communicate all of the way to war.

      As far as Ashe is concerned, he used a bunch of immature young people. For him to generalize upon all human beings is a stupid assumption on his part. If he tried that same experiment with mature hardcore skeptics fist fights might have broken out, but some people simply would not back down from their observations. That is why I will NOT back down from saying that I have had out-of-body experience, that homeopathy works, but I am very uncertain about BigFoot, since I have no experience of BigFoot.

      This interplay between personal experience and group consensus is what pervades the practical epistomology of society.

      • Omega Z

        Bigfoot

        Hmmm. I keep an open mind.
        Until we can scour every inch of the earth & prove without a doubt he does not exist we can’t rule it out. Stranger things have happened.

        Once proven he doesn’t exist- I’ll rule it out. On Earth. 🙂
        It’s a Big Universe. There may still be a Wooki out there. He resembles a Bigfoot.

        • Roger Bird

          I agree exactly. It is an open question.

      • Harry Skip Robinson

        And I find the group consensus is often wrong.

  • georgehants

    Like to thank Fabio’ for his good comments and add that I think this is the best page of comments for a long time.
    Wonderful.
    Couple of points —
    I have said on page many times, my personal opinion from the beginning is that Rossi has something substantial.
    My personal opinion means nothing and is worthless, only the Evidence counts.
    The Evidence for Cold Fusion is becoming overwhelming but the final Evidence for a high output device is not yet totally secure and I therefore still withhold my final judgement.
    Nobody should ever, as has happened below with fortune tellers etc. debunk or deny any subject without allowing competently for the Evidence, in this case Telepathy, Remote Viewing etc. that like that for Cold Fusion is overwhelming.
    Fabio, please write a topic on what possible damage you think has been done to the World society by the 24 years that science has debunked and denied Cold Fusion.

  • Omega Z

    Fabio,

    Sorry Fabio, Your questions may have probably gotten you a little more then you bargained for. LOL

    I feel a- Is this real or a dream moment. Pinch Me.

    Pinch- Yes, it’s likely real. Tho I think some of my fellow posters may have unrealistic expectations of E-cat abilities & Time lines. Especially for a stand alone home system. Many may come to pass in time, but not soon. It’s likely we wont have indisputable proof of a working marketable Industrial product for at least a Year, Possibly 2 and it will take many more years to have a physical impact on day to day life.(Outside of a Short World shock moment.)

    If some of the responders here seem a little overzealous, just realize that many of us have experienced viscous unprovoked, many times personal attacks around the Net. Some have a hair trigger because of this.(Very Rare here at ECW thanks to Franks handling of moderation)

    If you still have some skepticism, It’s Ok, many of us still have certain caveats & realize even the best laid plans can go a rye. That’s Life.

    As far as I’m concerned, your welcome here. Legitimate questions & a little skepticism is good. It keeps the rest of us honest & helps keep us from fooling ourselves.

    Note to Fellow E-cat World-ers. Occasionally visiting other sites, I’ve noticed some of you are very, Very Good at responding to Trolls & Antagonists. Done without Viciousness, but with Intellect & Reason. It’s been posted on some of those sites that you can’t Change their Views. WE- Know That. That is not the Intent. The Intent is to provide information to the newly aware. A Balance.

    If I were new to LENR (And Open Minded) & witnessed the exchange, Those who make these unreasonable attacks would quickly gain my scorn. Those reasonable would gain my respect. Id be receptive to what you have to say. To you ECW posters I say Thank You.

    Back to Fabio- Visiting other sites if your not already aware. You may encounter some derogatory comments about ECW.

    The Fanatic Site. Well, yeah. A little truth to that, but the vast majority are reasonable Educated people who still keep an open mind even if some expectations are a little to high. Likely those who are derogatory are Banned & Angry or would be if they behaved that way here.

    A bit of advice. If you lean towards believing, Grow a thick skin. You’ll need it around the net.

    And if your post should go into moderation- LAUGH 🙂
    When Franks away from the computer, His software obtains it’s own sense of Humor.

    You can Literally Post Hey, How is everyone.
    POP: Your post is in Moderation. 🙂 or 🙁

    Ha- Moderated.

  • Chris I

    Oh that’s an easy one: They’re not actually competitors but instead all part of the Grand Scheme, just like all the folks that say they’ve seen it working, some of them even that they went to expose the illusion but instead saw the light, etc…

    And of course the more people are roped into the scam, the more money they’ll need to rip off people so as to split enough of it up between them all. Else the ones that get a short end would become uncomfortable figures. Hmmmm, like, maybe Focardi was bumped off cuz he was making threatening creaking sounds? Maybe even Fleishman himself? o.O

    • Roger Bird

      I am almost sure that Chris 1 is pulling our leg. But I am not certain. In either case, the geographical and linguistic separation of this alleged scam makes it a non-scam.

      • Chris I

        Geography and languages are the least of guarantees, they can be bridged alright. Hubbard spammed far more of them than Rossi ever did so far.

        You really think I’m pulling your leg? Remember that, no matter what you shall deem as not being the typical behaviour of a con-man, the very art is exactly that of exploiting such judgements to the purpose of dissimulation. And, even if every single one of the other 7 billion plus apes on this planet were telling you that this planet is round, not a tetrahedron, there’s always the chance that someone is paying every one of them in order to con you…. 😀

  • daniel maris

    I posted that point exactly on another thread. The more credible companies that are claiming LENR, then the more credible it becomes.

    We’re clearly not at the tipping point yet but that is in part I think because the mainstream media hasn’t engaged. To take an eg. – I don’t think the BBC has run a serious item on LENR/cold fusion for ten years.

    • Dr Bob

      @ Daniel Maris

      Ask and thou shall receive!

      Hopefully admin on this page will endorse such information if someone can present it.

      / DB

  • GreenWin

    Just in case some folks missed what is happening around the world of organized nuclear power; South Korea has arrested 43 and charged 98 high level execs including President of Korea Hydro & Nuclear Power Co. and the Vice Minister Energy:

    http://nuclear-news.net/2013/09/12/unpardonable-corruption-in-south-koreas-nuclear-industry/

    The same despicable corruption that buried the true extent of Fukushima disaster and that keeps negligent and criminal conduct operating under contract to the United States Department of Energy. Apologies to Lilly for “grandstanding.”

  • http://www.lenr-forum.com barty

    What about Hydrofusion and their autumn-ecat showcase plant?

    Any news? Did they get one plant, or are they still waiting for shipment?

    • V.p.S.

      As far as I know (from other E-Cat licensee), this information will probably remain confidential until Rossi’s partner will decide to make a general press release regarding its involvement in LERN technology (or whatever it will be called at that moment). This pilot E-Cat installation will still be used for the purpose of customer acquisition, however every potential customer will be thoroughly checked by the partner and will have to sign an NDA. So we will not get any information about that plant until the partner will decide we should or some information will leak through some link in that chain.

  • Fabio

    Guys guys, thank you for all your answers. I think I’m (a bit) less skeptical now about the reality of LENR.

    I still would love to hear the skeptics’ arguments… maybe this is not the right forum to ask this though.

    Another point I’d like to discuss with you is the following: are you so certain that giving Humanity unlimited free energy is a good thing? Again, I’m kind of divided, although this time I’m more on the yes side. But I guess that’s too much skepticism for one day, and this question would deserve a separate thread…

    • http://www.e-catworld.com admin

      Hi Fabio — you are right that you won’t find the most skeptical people here, and if you went to other sites to ask your question you’d get probably get a different set of responses. I try to keep ECW free of what some people refer to as ‘pathoskepticism.’

      Good idea for a separate thread.

      • Zedshort

        The proper name of such persons is Troll. They put on the cloak of skeptics to fool primarily themselves.

    • jdm

      While the ‘fat cats’ that currently control big energy certainly do their share to stimulate our economy, I believe that leaving some of that money in the little guys’ pockets would make for a more even spread of the wealth. The oil speculators? Let them eat tar sands.

    • Bento

      Remember LENR is clean!

    • Buck

      Fabio,

      you ask “is unlimited free energy a good thing?”

      To provide an extremely dramatic response: Did you prefer Philip K. Dick’s world where, in “Total Recall”, everyone has to pay the Corporation for each breath they take?

      From a different perspective: You question makes little sense in that having unlimited free energy, which is not how LENR will actually arrive in a world organized around Capitalism, will not change the fundamental existential challenges of humanity. We will still be challenged by our responsibility for our own life, the freedom each of us has in our decisions, the difficulty of bringing meaning into our lives, and finally, pursuing a mindful answer of these three challenges before we die.

      How will having very inexpensive energy change these existential challenges? They will still be part of the human condition.

      I pose the following question to you: How can humanity look in the mirror each morning, when a viable solution exists which will end the levels of pollution created by the recovery, transportation, and utilization of Oil/Gas/Coal?

      • Fabio

        Pollution is not the worst we can do to us and our planet. Unlimited habitat destruction (cutting down forests, building everywhere, etc.) and unlimited production of weapons become suddenly possible. It is irrelevant whether this is done with clean energy or not. My question is not as crazy as it may seem.

        • Buck

          So, you wouldn’t implement LENR because it reduces the cost to individuals, communities, and nations of making and acting on stupid, insensitive, destructive, and deadly decisions?

          But, in taking that path, you deny to those who would use LENR for positive constructive decisions and actions such as obviating the need for firewood, increasing the efficiency of food production, increasing the sanitation of water supplies, reducing environmental pollution, or removing a source of war over the control of energy resources to name a few examples.

          In the final analysis, LENR is merely a tool which is far more efficient and effective, with far fewer negative externalities, than the tool it will replace.

          We will still be presented with the existential concerns. IMHO, humanity’s nature will still be evolving and growing towards individual wisdom or enlightenment. And there will still be the psychopaths, the Hitlers, Stalins, Neros and Caligulas to take arms against.

        • Roger Bird

          Fabio, you are so cool. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your civil manner and excellent questions. You realize that you got your own posting from Frank the admin. I never got my own posting; it just ain’t fair!

          I think that when most of the old codgers on this site say “pollution” they are also including in that category cutting down forests, etc. But each of those should be addressed separately.

          I think that cutting down forests will be greatly reduced, particularly in 3rd world countries. Burning firewood will be reduced. The population of the world will plateau out at 10 billion (not because of LENR but because of education and prosperity) [see http://www.gapminder.com] So this stopping of population growth and LENR will stop the cutting down of so much forest.

          Buildings will be more dispersed, so it will seem not so crowded. I lived in the Philippines, and everyone there lives on the coast. At 6:00 A.M. I went out to the street, and it was so crowded that it seemed like everyone was waiting for the president to drive by in a parade. Really. People there live mostly on the coast, so it GREATLY aggravates the sense of crowding. With LENR, this will be ameliorated.

          Weapons will be reduced because there will be less (not none) “reason” for people to fight. [Frank the admin, when I click the spell checker, the “Enter” key stops working and the window sizing thingie in the lower right corner disappears.]

          • Fabio

            Thank you Roger, and thanks to all the other commenters. Lots of interesting reflections!

            Just one remark: population dispersal may be a good thing for our quality of life and health. But on the other hand it increases the use of land and reduces the areas left to wilderness.

            As an example, in recent times Europe has seen a return of forests in many previously anthropized areas. (In the case of Italy, my home country, the forest area has increased of 15% in the past 20 years.) I believe this is due to population living less and less in remote parts of the continent…

            On the other hand, I totally agree with you that in 3rd world countries, cheap energy (not “free”, my mistake), and the hopefully resulting stop in population growth should reverse the trend of natural habitats destruction (not just forests).

            Anyway, should LENR become widely available, and with the right regulations, I agree with you that the opportunities should vastly outweight the risks.

      • GreenWin

        Not to mention the end to subsistence poverty and hunger a low cost form of non-combustion energy represents. The greater question is how can people anywhere look at themselves knowing the solutions are blacklisted by those purported to represent our best interests?? It is a war against overseer greed and corruption.

    • Bertuswonkel

      Dear Fabio.
      The reality of LENR does not depend on Rossi or Defkalion.
      Unexpected nuclear phenomena have been scarcely reported since the 1920, but it took a big jump after the P and F announcement in 1989. There is a lot of evidence for LENR collected over the past two decades.
      mr. Storms provides a good synopsis of the research http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEastudentsg.pdf.

      The question remains, can it be turned into commercial applications and what is the time scale of the introduction. Commercial front runner have an incentive to exaggerate performance to attract investment and deter competitors. I think some stuff needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. I always have been highly skeptical of Rossi and his claims. It took me some time to take him serious. However, i have gotten more and more convinced he is on to something.

      He has received support from highly intelligent people with long careers in the field e.g. prof. Focardi. I found the last paper published convincing although more evidence is needed http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1305/1305.3913.pdf. He says test are now being taken and i think as long as we here nothing things are going well. If a big scam is detected or something else is not in the hook, i trust Hanno Essén or any of the others would inform us a.s.a.p. The surely know we are following things religiously.

      Rossi has a turbulent history and is in some ways a very strange man but this is not necessarily a bad thing. Many front runners in the history of science had quirks or acted weird. I guess that sort of comes with the territory. I saw a report on the news yesterday that a Dutch company Petrogas received a 100 Mil. D. order for building high-tech plastic waste to diesel converters. This was exactly what Rossi was working on 30 years ago. His company failed but i dont think that was all his fault. In Italy you don’t want to get involved in waste issues since it is also the mafia’s territory. He fought 56 different legal trials and was free of charge in 51 of them (Wiki).

      Rossi does not come over to me as a greedy person. He is a highly religious man, he in his sixties and has dedicated his life to inventing the ultimate source of energy. I think he sees it as his ticked into heaven and as gods plan for him on earth. Guess science and religion can mix after all. He has very good engineering skills and potentially made enough money to let him die in peace somewhere nice, Italy i would think. Instead he decided to invest all his money into this project. Seems a bit strange to pull off a huge scam like this if you are so close to receiving your retirement funds. For now, i give him the benefit of the doubt and i am making plans for a fast introduction of LENR.

      To address your last point, first it will not be free, cheap maybe, but nothing is free. Furthermore i am schooled as an environmental scientist and i say we need this badly, urgently. If we want to keep the climate under control by conventional means i.e. without geo-engineering we need 0 green house gas emissions as of today. 2030 or 2050 absolutely wont do, by then we are looking at some serious changes. Not to mention the acidification of the ocean, oil spils, shell gas leakage, Fukushima and what not. A revolution in energy is long over due considering all the advances made in other areas of technology. This might come just in time, so please get on board and help us solve this puzzle!

      • Fibb

        great post.

        • Buck

          +1

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Bertuswonkel wrote, “In Italy you don’t want to get involved in waste issues since it is also the mafia’s territory.”

        Recycling is also very much infiltrated by the mob in the US. My ex-inlaw was an executive for a paper recycling company and he openly boasted of having people “whacked”.

        His main job was conducted on the back 9 of golf courses where he bribed municipal office holders.

    • cliff

      Fabio,

      What makes you think that it will be unlimited free energy? Sorry, e-cats are not free. The main thing that the e-cat does is it provides energy that does not pollute and doesn’t need a central generation plant. If you think this is free, then maybe you don’t know that Rossi charges 1 million dollars for one of his plants.

      It’s like cheaper, safer nuclear energy without the problem of nuclear waste or meltdowns. It can be dispursed all over the place instead of putting it in a central plant that needs a lot of infrastructure and security. Think of what that means for remote locations, Antarctica, the bottom of a mine, submarines, remote villages in the jungle, etc.

      It will never be free, but it will be less expensive and much, much, much more flexible than current ways of generating power.

      For you peta people, it means we don’t need to kill any more eagles with our wind turbines either!

      • Fabio

        Ok ok, I’m convinced it’s good (love the eagles!!!) Now let’s hope it’s real and happening soon 🙂

        • cliff

          I hope it’s real and happening soon too.

    • Richard Hill

      unlimited free energy is a good thing?
      /end quote
      We already have unlimited ‘free ‘ energy!
      How much does sunlight, wind, geothermal etc cost?
      It is the cost of gathering and conversion to get useful energy.
      So far, to get useful energy from the ‘Rossi Effect’ seems to involve costs for control equipment and other support systems.
      Also the charge materials such as nickel nanopowders are expensive, even if only small quantities needed.

    • Roger Bird

      Fabio, suffering that is the result of real concrete needs, like water, food, shelter, warmth will be reduced. Suffering that is the result of runaway desires, like drugs usage and human trafficking, will increase. Suffering that is the result of religious and other intolerance will probably stay the same.

      People will have greater freedom to pursue their goals, whether wise or stupid, good or bad.

    • Fibb

      Fabio, I’m not sure it is a good idea at all! free/cheap energy has some serious downsides… but I think if properly managed, the good should strongly outweigh the bad…. but I know exactly what you mean.

    • Omega Z

      Fabio

      “are you so certain that giving Humanity unlimited free energy is a good thing?”

      Not Free- And in fact a BAD Misnomer. I think this just invites Skeptic attacks & probably rightfully so. Nothing is free.

      This technology is likely to be much cheaper & provides many other benefits.

      Not Unlimited. Very Abundant. Given mans propensity to waste, I’m sure we could find a way to exhaust the supply.

      As to your actual question, I consider it very Valid to ask.
      I’ve seen people suggest plumbing all the highways for snow & Ice removal. Real World cost & Logistics will prevent this, but it’s an indicator of how things could go crazy.

      We still need to work on Efficiencies in everything we do & cheap plentiful energy may derail this to our future detriment.

      However the more I investigate things, the more I think other world limitations will inhibit this.

      • Buck

        very nice pragmatic post.

    • Ryan

      Allow me to make that an easy answer. Yes. Yes we do want energy on that level. The faster we can raise the standard of living for the majority of people the faster we can get them to a point where they will be better educated and the faster they will reach a standard where having fewer children will be seen as a positive move. The sooner we get a massive boost in energy production, especially that could be light weight and portable (with development) the faster we can get much more advanced robotics, the faster we can reach out into the solar system and start harvesting the raw materials that are out there in far greater abundance than we have on Earth and the faster we can make even more developments that make everyone’s lives better. With a LENR type of energy source it would make recycling far easier and cost effective. It would make desalination much more cost effective (and thats not even including some of the tech being created that already makes it easier) and that in turn would allow us to convert arid land into plains, forests and other more habitable terrain. It would allow us to much more easily do vertical farming in which we could feed the world’s population using far less space, with fewer (if any) chemicals needed. A boost in energy that also costs far less would also in turn make things cheaper and in turn make research in a variety of fields easier to come by, expanding our horizons even further. Perhaps you think that the old days were somehow great but I can assure you that history details that they were not. They were times of squalor where disease, hunger and poverty reigned and people with poor to no educations bred like rabbits because it was almost guaranteed that many of their children would die before reaching adulthood and they needed the manual labor to survive. We still have places like that in the world today and we should be doing what we can to bring them all up to standards where they don’t live like that. It won’t just help them, in the long run it will also benefit us.

      • Fibb

        Well you just convinced the hell out of me. Well done.

      • Omega Z

        Ryan

        I agree with most of your post.

        There are better & cheaper ways to desalinize then evaporation. But E-cats could supply the power for the additional treatments after & for pumping the brine back out to sea for uniform dispersal. Don’t want to create dead zones. And Note: Even evaporation desalinizing doesn’t necessarily make water safe for consumption.

        As for farmland, I suppose they will only reclaim previous farmland no longer utilized due to lack of enough water. Even that will likely be done by drip/seepage irrigation. Even with new technologies combined with E-cat power, conventional ways would still be cost prohibitive in most cases.
        A simple apple tree can require 50-100 gallons a day.
        To grow 1 Tomato(Not the plant)requires 4 gallons.

        Most deserts will go mostly or completely untouched. They are an Ecosystem all their own.

        Ask the U.S. Government. They spent 10’s of Billions draining swamps, Only to spend 10’s of billions to put them back. Seems they have a Eco purpose that’s detrimental to life if eliminated. There Natures filtering system.

        As to vertical greenhouses & such. I’ve recently become aware that these foods aren’t as good as one would think. They just aren’t the same as grown in gardens & fields.(Missing certain vitamins, minerals, etc that we need.) Maybe, In time, they can figure this out & fix it. However, we can continue using them as we do now to fill in the gaps & even expand on it. I see a problem only if that was your only source of Veggies.

    • Omega Z

      orsobubu

      You apparently know nothing about economics.
      But you have 1 thing right.
      Someone OWES you a living.
      LOOK in the MIRROR.
      There he is.
      That’s the person who owes you a living.
      Get on his Azz.

      Quit expecting others to provide for you.
      No one has a right to expect others to provide it for them.
      Slavery is Immoral & just plain wrong.

      The Vast majority of those we consider rich, Earned it.
      They worked hard, saved & invested.

      Taking what they worked so hard for is nothing other then theft.

      Even a Poor uneducated dumber then a Box of Rocks can become rich or at least well off if they apply themselves.
      I know a few personally. All they had going for them was hard work & knowing they had to set aside a portion to invest.
      It payed off for them.

      • cliff

        Omega Z

        Wow, you are my hero. I wish I had been so articulate. You are sooooo right.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    If it were not for Rossi and being exposed to his JONP site I would probably be in the same place as Fabio: Just waking up to the reality of LENR.

    • Omega Z

      “If it were not for Rossi”

      Most of us would be oblivious to whats going on with all of them.
      Actually, I would be aware of Black Light & Mills. Otherwise. Nope.

  • Anonymole

    If this were anything but the ultimate technology to free humanity from the grip of oppression and potential calamity then no one would even bother analyzing the hoax aspect any of the players. But as it is, LENR, and its nearly free energy potential, does represent such a technology and so no player can be taken at their word until irrefutable proof has been offered.

    What makes the task of proof that much harder is that LENR, as a phenomenon, appears valid. And so any player may come along and piggyback off of LENR’s apparent credibility and claim it as their own.

    The possibility of nearly free energy has driven fraud for centuries. There is no reason to think such fraud has suddenly vanished from the venue. The stakes are too high to accept any player’s claims at face value, even Brillioun’s.

  • LilyLover

    Fabio,
    There are scientists, who refuse to work hard and want an easy way.
    Then, there are those that work hard and find the truth.
    Then, there are some, who know nothing but strongly sense where the wind is blowing.
    Then, there are hopefuls like the sports fans.
    Then, there are smart businessmen, linguists and cunning-but-not-conmen.
    ***
    Devil’s Advocate-
    Hoax: It’s possible. We can hype up the secrecy surrounding LENR thereby implying authenticity and with banks and governmental back up we can silence all the involved to “stay-in-once-in” on this big con. Then, bankrupt worldwide oilcos, and buy them cheap. Then, if LENR actually happens, suppress it using the ones who invent it; or, if it doesn’t happen, you’ve become rich having bought all the oilcos. Buy them with money or threat or patriotism – tell them once out of oil, terrorists will have no resources to harm us! Burnt by Petroldragon, Rossi is seeking his revenge in his own way. So, he is in!
    ***
    Why it’s not that way?
    Some ethics left in people.
    Even in Chinese patent office. & Toyota & Mitsubishi. & BLP & Rossi & The Swedes.
    ***
    As, a scientist, use VMinteq and find maximum obtainable enthalpy based on “our” “current” models.
    Read all the three books by Dr. Randall Mills. Update your knowledge. He is very thorough in his imagnation even including the basic interference patterns, Compton shift and alike. If you understand nothing, at least you’ll see a lot of great pictures!
    Go to LENR Chan’s archives. Read thoroughly the “how-to” LENR.
    Have about 10k$ ready to spend on home-lab; if not, have 200$ for materials, find a Chemistry prof (or a PhD student) in some university and get the full lab. Do it yourself. Compare the results. Be happy. Proof needs a lot less effort than optimization.

    I understand that you are unwilling to work hard. Here, most of us have completely given up on the integrity of peer review process, and ethics behind patent granting. You cannot isolate the narrow field of LENR from banking, geo-politics and paradigm change. You have to understand how Italy works to know how Rossi was punished for gifting humanity. Petroldragon to clean-diesel. How it happened.

    Next,
    The wind-sensors, smart businessmen, linguists and cunning-but-not-conartists will not all be dumber than Rossi.

    Like Wikipedia, the Media, keeps the info- that liberates you – hidden; but flashes all the info that entangles, dazzles, entertains, distracts, consumes-with-triviality and enslaves you.

    Or, you could simply, trust some of the grand-standing people on this forum. As in … because daddy says so; especially if you are not willing to put any work into it or if you have not worked hard enough to become smart enough.
    So, if GW, GeorgeHants & PeterRoe think it’s real -it must be real.

    Besides, you’ll notice this is & will be THE MOST intelligent internet forum in the future history of internet.

    So, have fun.

    Enjoy what’s coming!

    • Roger Bird

      The suggestion that someone could believe LENR because a bunch of people on this forum believe it is interesting. I don’t. But it sets up the thought, what happens when we try to tell others that LENR is real. I ALWAYS tell others to look at the evidence, unless the person is real close to me and trusts me.

      NF would be unable to plow through the evidence and understand what it means, but she believes ANYTHING that I say.

      NO is a lawyer but would not bother to look at the evidence, but she believes me anyway.

      JP merely tolerates my assertions and would not bother to look at the evidence because his Nobel Prize winning brother would tell him to not waste his time.

      My family trusts me because they know I am very bright and they have seen how long I have spent on this problem and how long I withheld belief in Rossi (19 months) before enthusiastically caving thanks to the Levi et. al testing.

      I always use my real name when commenting on this issue. Is there anyone here who responded to my comments anywhere by looking at the evidence for LENR?

      • Buck

        Absolutely, I did.

  • GreenWin

    Fukushima – Gateway to A New World?

    The thoroughly specious suggestion that the established (if misunderstood) field of LENR is “a hoax,” is tantamount to exclaiming the Amazing Randi will compete in the next Summer Olympics.

    But we are at an interesting place with respect to geo-political energy. Nearly daily mainstream press reports on the unprecedented disaster at Fukushima. It is a technological, political and sociological failure of magnitude enough to be… constructive. The official Japanese Parliament report on Fukushima says:

    “Its fundamental causes are to be found in the ingrained conventions of Japanese culture: our reflexive obedience; our reluctance to question authority; our devotion to ‘sticking with the program.'”

    For any new system as disruptive as decentralized LENR to flourish, the old, in-bred system of energy generation and transmission must dramatically change. Fukushima may be just the disaster needed to force that change. At least in the developed world.

    “The last thing anyone wants to hear regarding a nuclear accident is “unprecedented crisis” and “getting worse.” Yet that was the frank assessment Tatsujiro Suzuki, chair of Japan’s Atomic Energy Commission, gave about the Fukushima power plant in an interview with the BBC earlier this month.” http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/09/16/the-real-nuclear-meltdown/

    Traditional nuclear energy has had a 65 year run. Centralized electrical generation and transmission has had a century. Somewhere, someone said, “As one door closes, another one opens.” Fukushima may well be the gateway to the good news in LENR.

    • Anonymole

      Fukushima is a disaster that is going to plague Japan for generations. And I hope it’s only Japan. The possibility of additional catastrophe there is real. I live on the west coast of North America and watch that mess continuing to unfold with trepidation.

      Unfortunately there is no viable replacement for fission nuclear energy, not one that offers such an apparently environmental friendly energy surplus. (Environmentally friendly only in regards to AGW). It will be making a comeback and we can only cross our fingers that world regulators only approve rational designs and locations (in the light of recent disasters).

      At this point you have to admit that LENR, in its so far documented form, is a novelty phenomena. The world is screaming for quads, and the only legitimate options are nat.gas, coal and nuclear. Reality sucks I’ll admit. Given a choice I’d vote in NFE in the form of LENR and unshackle us from the grip of the filthy fuel we’ve been using since antiquity. But we’ve little choice. The world needs energy. Nuclear energy will be returning.

      • Omega Z

        Anonymole

        At the present rate of cost escalation(About 600% in the last 5 years)in order to be safety compliant, Nuclear is on the verge of pricing itself out of feasibility. Only the Builders are pushing Nuclear Power.

        Those who have to invest in it(The Energy Companies) are looking at not only zero profit, But not enough to even cover basic operating costs. Ever.

        Example: An Energy Company was looking to build 2-Half Gigawatt Generators at 1 plant at 4 Billion$. 5 years latter the price was Calculated to be about 24 Billion$ by completion with just 1-Half Gigawatt Generator. Both have been Permanently Cancelled.

        Tho many are still being considered & Pushed by the builders, The price greatly escalates before a signature is even applied. In Many Countries, even upgrading Existing plants to safety compliance dooms them to just being shut down. As many as 32 at present in the U.S. are on this track. The U.S. Officially has 104 Nuclear plants, but about half a dozen are down. Within the next 10 years, as many as half may no longer be in Operation.

        This was already happening Prior to Fukushima. It’s only accelerated since then.

        • GreenWin

          You both make solid points. Economics will trump all politics. With Entergy’s scrapping of Vermont Yankee – the writing grows larger. Natural gas and Distributed Energy Resources are a death knell for fission.

          • Omega Z

            Hey GW.

            I know your aware as I am that Big Oil has dumped their long term leases- 20 to 30 years out. Their not going anywhere, they’ll just renegotiate them at better prices down the road when things settle out to the new reality.

            Thought I’d mention, I very recently read where these companies are also reconfiguring internally. Divisions that pay good dividends & others that don’t. One & the same Corporation but separate. Their Official reason is said to be for investor value, But I suspect it’s more to do with future realities.

            Portions that remain profitable in the new reality & those that can be written off or down on loses in the future.

            I probably haven’t explained this very well. Wish I still had the link. But basically I think their just preparing so they can survive into the future at a smaller scale.

            • GreenWin

              Sounds logical for oil to diversify into business units that can be stranded at lower cost. With pressure from NG, glut in Mid East oil and lower cost DERs & EVs (aka unburnable carbon), even oil for gasoline will drop below $75-80/ barrel. A point hard for oilcos to make money.

            • Anonymole

              There are some interesting developments in the oil/gas industry with regards to finds. Multiple multinational oil corps are of course heading to the Arctic which seems insane but they’re doing it none-the-less. Russia may be the big winner here. There are also odd locations of shale oil popping up, southern Australia is one and of all places, southern California. Massive quantities of theoretically recoverable oil in these places. And the oil companies are going after them. Oil is just as important as it’s ever been, more so even with emerging markets clamoring for their share of first world industrialization.

              I’d like to read that re-org article if you can find it. It is a smart thing to do in this time of political pressure of being forced to deal with AGW.

          • BillyGiuseppe Rosencrantz

            “Natural gas and Distributed Energy Resources are a death knell for fission.”

            For traditional fission…..yes.
            But I would not count out FISSION.

            Remember, GeNiE employs fission.

        • Anonymole

          The natural gas production expansion is certainly making it hard to justify building nuclear reactors these days, and will be for years it looks like. Not to mention the number of LNG export port permits in this country that are submitted and the few that are already approved. This country will be shipping LNG in massive amounts soon. Therefore the case for nuc plants is limited for the next half decade I’ll agree. After that… who can tell. I went searching for specs on what’s what in this arena and found a useful page:

          http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Country-Profiles/Countries-T-Z/USA–Nuclear-Power/

          So, although there are new nuc plants coming online and new ones slated for construction (which is significant in and of itself) it nowhere comes close to the build out of nat.gas plants.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    To me, one important reason for believing in his claims was that they published measurements (especially the so-called Penon report) whose internal consistency was possible to check in different ways, for example, by comparing the input power, output power, external temperature, Stefan-Boltzmann radiative cooling, heat capacity calculated from the reactor materials and masses, and the cooling curve after the device was turned off. All these were consistent with the idea that their measurements were essentially correct. I think that it is generally speaking unlikely to get into that kind of internal agrement by fabricating data or by measuring it wrong. Perhaps not impossible, but unlikely.

  • Boris Ivanoff

    This is a bit off topic but I’ve been looking to read the qualifications for Robert Godes and Robert George of Brillouin. I did a quick Google search and didn’t find the information.

    Does anyone know what their education, previous research work, university associations, publications, and the like are? (thanks)

  • Buck

    Fabio,

    I suggest you don’t approach the ‘problem’ of LENR with a focus on Rossi. His history can too easily be twisted to create a negative shadow across all of LENR efforts.

    Instead, go to LENRProof.com. Read through the presentation and follow 90-95% of the links. Come to your own opinion. I suggest that your sense of doubt will have a dramatically different look and feel.

    IMHO, your curiosity is now focused upon WHEN and not IF. Also, your chess-playing mind is now speculating on how can small eccentric players enter a $5Trillion global energy market where the Big Players wield and exercise immense economic and legislative influence through multiple pressure groups, some of which are in the open and some decidedly anonymous.

    I hope this helps to reframe your original question.

  • artefact

    Rossi about beeing so quiet at the moment:

    “Andrea Rossi
    September 20th, 2013 at 10:37 AM
    Jan.Gustavsson:
    Honestly, I think you are right and I understand your feeling. As a matter of fact, in these last months my situation is strongly changed, because the validation and R&D work is shared with a Team that thinks it is not opportune to give any specific information before the end of the very throughly work of validation, tests, R&D in course upon the plants that have been manufactured and delivered to the Customer. This decision has been taken by the Team I am part of and I think this choice is proper. I can guarantee you that when we will have reached consoliated results, positive or negative, such results will be shared with the scientific community and eventually with the wider public, with a press conference that will be made by our communication agency. Totally different is the situation regarding the third indipendent party, whose work is made indipendent from us: the results of their work, whatever will be after the 6 months- 1 year test period, will be published from the Professors of the third indipendent party when and where they will decide, so I do not know whatever they will do, which will be totally indipendent from me.
    All this will limit my communication, until the reports will be published, but, nevertheless, I will say what I will be permitted to.
    Take also in consideration that my work now is much more intense, if possible than before and the time at my disposal has been further narrowed.
    Thank you for your kind attention,
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

    • Jim

      Nice, thanks.

    • Omega Z

      artefact

      According to Cures, Rossi’s partner has asked him not to post Details on JONP as it can only serve to help competitors at this point. He indicated that this was not an Issue for Rossi.

      For the most part, JONP is of no further use to Rossi’s work. Yes he did use it as a sounding board to get Ideas from others that could help him overcome certain problems or to locate things. This saved him much time he would otherwise had to search himself. Time is money. Many of us realized this.

      Note that even a bad Idea can change ones thinking that leads to a fix. Also ideas from cross disciplines can be of great help. And LENR tech crosses many.

      I’ve posted in the past that Rossi had reached a point where JONP was of little further use to him & that Rossi only continued to post there due to Gratitude to those few who have offered unwavering support & Ideas. Confirmed in a Cures post.

      He developed a kinship with them. Much as happens here, When certain people don’t post for a few days, it is quickly noticed by many of us. Even if we don’t always agree with their ideology, They many times post things of great interest or provide an alternate point of view. Much of it is appreciated.

      • artefact

        >Much as happens here
        It is a very unique event we are watching in realtime and it became part of our daily life (at least for me) and so the forum members.
        We need to have a forum reunion in 5 or 10 years afer the day x 😉

  • Christopher Calder

    The odds of it all being a hoax are now about as great as the odds of winning Powerball. So many people have tested the various forms of nickel-hydrogen LENR and found that it works makes it proven science. Getting the media and politicians to admit that is another story. Producing a reliable, high COP product is the difficult part.

    We have no idea how far advanced China, Korea, and Japan are in LENR because companies who work on LENR have a strong financial incentive to keep their work a secret until the last minute. Even public Defkalion has a policy of only filing for patent protection on their ideas at the last possible moment.

  • Gordon Docherty

    It would appear that Defkalion’s web-site has been hacked – it wasn’t before…

    • artefact

      It wasn’t some hours ago.
      In the sourcecode is a mailadress and the text: guess what.. you have been hacked

    • Sanjeev

      Yes, hacked. There is a suspicious looking flash media embedded there, so I do not recommend visiting there without proper protection.

      Anyway, DGT was not maintaining that site, it looked like a template with dummy text. Nothing lost.

  • Fabio

    Hi Frank, thank you very much for re-posting this.

    I just want to clarify: as a natural skeptic, I am going to start from the assumption that Rossi’s claims are false. This is just how I react to very strong claims, but otherwise I have no reasons to lean towards one or the other hypothesis (I repeat: I’m not a physicist). Also note that this is a question aimed especially at those who believe this is a hoax.

    • cliff

      I understand you want to hear from the unconvinced. Sorry, even though I’m a skeptic as well, I’m convinced that something happened years ago with Pons and Fleischmann. Unfortunately, they didn’t discover all the necessary but not sufficient elements to their experiment. They noticed heat that should not have been there. Instead of doing what most scientists would do, that is independently replicate their findings, they rushed to a press conference and ruined their reputation along with putting “cold fusion” research into the same realm as “big foot” for years. They didn’t understand all the parts that had to be there before it would work.

      However, people continued to experiment with cold fusion over the years in other countries, particularly Japan and, of course, Rossi in Italy. He came to the US because of the failure of his plant for converting waste into electricity, which may have been a conspiracy against him. In the US he continued to experiment and found his “secret sauce” and ramped up his efforts little by little. In the mean time others achieved what they called “the effect”, but nobody was able to explain the anomalous heat generation.

      So, over time, I’ve been convinced that something is happening. Rossi, Defkalion and Brillouin are convinced that they understand what the underlying physics is, which they will reveal when their patents are granted. Time will tell, but the demonstrations lately are compelling. Bear in mind that demonstrations of “the effect” have been successfully going on for several years and you can get plans and materials for your own experiment.

      I don’t think you need to be a physicist to understand, on a simple level, that something is going on and that it is well beyond what can be achieved with chemical reactions. For me, that’s enough for the time being. The fact that Rossi has sold plants to companies is encouraging. The fact that we don’t know who those companies are is not encouraging.

      It doesn’t make any difference in my life right now, so it’s a matter of couriosity for me. However, I do look forward to seeing the first operating plant on 60 Minutes or the CBS Evening News.

      Interestingly enough, much of the discussion on this board is related to economics. Socialists want Rossi to turn his secret over to the world. Capitalists want Rossi to keep it to himself until he has working plants being sold all over the place. Some think it’s a matter of Rossi being greedy, while others think it is a matter of getting product out to the world in the most efficient way possible.

      • Omega Z

        Cliff

        Pons and Fleischmann actually wanted to go the traditional route.

        The University pushed them to disclose in the manner they did. Another researcher was near disclosure/publishing & they wanted to beat him to the punch.

        They were looking for Prestige & Money/Grants coming to the University. Pons and Fleischmann & Society paid the consequences of the Universities bad choices.

        • cliff

          Thanks for letting me know about this. Now that you mention it, I remember reading something like this years ago, but the fact that they were not given the benefit of the doubt convinced me that they were at fault. I stand corrected.

  • buffalo

    another perspective would be why is everyone is doing their utmost to ‘expose’ this as a scam yet the ball keeps rolling?why does the ball keep rolling and yet not rolling into full blown mainstream?why is it hovvering?and why are millions of dollars being pumped into its research quietly? the answer is because there is something there,something very interesting.

    • cliff

      Hey! I love a good conspiracy theory!

      How about this for the “why”? The middle eastern and Russian oil producers are trying to keep the petro dollars flowing. You can see their influence in the “fracking” debate in which “useful idiots” like Matt Damon make movies filled with lies or Daryl Hannah goes from place to place saying that the EPA findings are garbage fueled by the oil companies.

      Ok, now that I’ve set up this conspiracy, think of what LENR will do to the Saudis and Russians? How many billions do you think they’ll be willing to spend to keep their oil gravy train running?

      Is it true? Probably, but it won’t matter in the long run. With competition, Rossi will be safe because he won’t be the sole LENR manufacturer and the tech will be distributed to the world.

  • psi

    It’s difficult to respond to this because he offers no examples of what he describes as “all the signs of” Rossi being a hoax. As for the questions, indeed – the range of activity in the field, by other players besides Rossi, along with the longevity of the activity, and the reputable characters of many who have vouched for the technology, mitigates against any theory of hoax.

    • Fabio

      The signs are those that one can read a bit everywhere on the net (e.g. Rossi’s history, attitude, methods…). But I’m not going to repeat them, as I’m not interested in debating on this. I’d love someone convinced that this is a hoax to try and answer my question above about the plurality of the supposed scammers.

      I kind of can think of an answer, but it involves some sort of epidemic self-deception… and frankly I’m not convinced by my own answer.

      • kemo sabe

        Successful scams attract copycats. There are far more fortune teller scams than cold fusion scams. Doesn’t make them more credible.

        • Roger Bird

          Only a skeptopath would think that such a parallel was relevent. Fortune tellers don’t have prestigeious credentials from prestigeous universities. I have been saying all along that skeptopaths are weak in the social awareness department.

          • Fabio

            Hi Roger, sorry but from the quick look I had I could not find any prestigious university involved, at least not in the case of Rossi and Defkalion (the University of Bologna is not in it http://news.newenergytimes.net/2012/01/24/university-of-bologna-terminates-relationship-with-rossi/ and the Swedes in the “independent report” don’t seem to have a lot of prestigious publications).

            • artefact

              The 3rd party test was done by:

              Giuseppe Levi, Assistant Professor in the Department of Physics and Astronomy, Bologna University
              Evelyn Foschi, Product Development Department for medical devices, University of Bologna, Italy.
              Torbjörn Hartman, Senior Research Engineer, The Svedberg Laboratory, Uppsala, Sweden.
              Bo Höistad, Professor, Department of Physics and Astronomy, Nuclear Physics, Uppsala University, Sweden.
              Roland Pettersson, Senior Lecturer, Department of Chemistry, Uppsala University, Sweden.
              Lars Tegnér, Professor Emeritus, Department of Engineering Sciences, Division of Electricity, Uppsala University, Sweden.
              Hanno Essen, Docent and Lecturer, Department of Mechanics of the KTH Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden.

              http://www.e-catworld.com/may-2013-3rd-party-test/

            • Roger Bird

              Mike McKubre I think graduated from Stanford. I certainly don’t remember most of the universities that these guys graduated from. But I think that I was referring to was the fact that almost all universities in the USA and elsewhere that hand out degrees are prestigious. There are accrediting associations which make sure that schools of higher education are for real. I believe that there are several cooperating national groups that certify school. Also remember that most of us are USA-centric.

          • kemo sabe

            But I wasn’t arguing against a claim that distinguished participants makes cold fusion credible. I was arguing against the claim the plurality makes a scam unlikely. If a plurality of cold fusion claims makes a scam unlikely, then by the same reasoning, a plurality of fortune tellers should make a scam in their business unlikely.

            Of course, we agree that cold fusion has far more credibility than fortune tellers. It’s precisely your agreement on the non-credibility of fortune tellers that makes it a useful analogy to show that plurality is a weak argument against a scam.

        • Fabio

          Ok. But fortune telling is an easy scam… (I could do it!)
          Is a cold fusion scam so easy to set up?

          • Roger Bird

            There are many arenas whose “product” are not concrete, and so it is very difficult to evaluate their reality. Fortune telling, as in the roadside cabin that advertises “Astrology Tarot Fortune” does not have concrete results. But neither does psychology. LENR on the other hand is supposed to have a concrete result, a COP greater than 1. It is measurable and pleasurable and NO ONE will like it if in the end it is a con. Medicine, health, healing, homeopathy, Chinese Medicine, nutrition, herbology all are kind of in the middle. People expect results, but it is difficult measure. Huge studies involving thousands of people are required to prove anything.

      • Warthog

        “The signs are those that one can read a bit everywhere on the net (e.g. Rossi’s history, attitude, methods…).”

        There are way too many people who are “not Rossi” validating his results. And there are two possible “takes” on Rossi’s history as well. The professional skeptics, of course, want to to sell the idea that anything and everything that Rossi has ever done “is just a scam”, but the evidence does NOT support such a view.

        And including Brillouin as part of a scam situation is just ludicrous. There is NO, none, zero, zip indication of any sort that they are anything other than legit.

        And it is no longer just those three…there are other companies working to commercialize LENR. To assume that all of “those” are scams defies sanity.

      • cliff

        Given your premise that LENR is all a scam, you wonder why there would be multiple scams going on at the same time. You postulate that maybe it involves some epidemic of self-deception. I’m not convinced by your answer either.

        The answer lies in the promise of nearly infinite, cheap energy. Look on the internet and you’ll see multitudes of scams involving “free” energy, like magnetic machines, cosmic rays, or even solar arrays which are so small that they’d barely power a TV and a 40 watt light bulb. Why are those there? Cheap energy.

        So, imagine an energy source that is nearly infinite using mere grams of nickel and hydrogen. Imagine that it only needs to be refueled every 6 months or longer. Imagine that there is no dangerous waste. Imagine that it cannot explode. Imagine that there is no danger of radiation or harmful emissions. Imagine that it will virtually eliminate CO2 emissions. Sounds good, doesn’t it?

        Now imagine that someone says they have a working plant. Now imagine how much money, ultimately, they’ll make. Others will want to jump in and make some of that money, right? Now imagine that the physics are either unknown or secret and that the company that bought the supposedly working plant is a secret as well. It’s not a stretch to think that unscrupulous people would jump on the band wagon to get their share of the pot, is it?

        It’s not epidemic self-deception any more than snake oil scams were. If, your idea that it all might be a scam is true, then the multiplicity of scams is just human nature and has existed throughout history. If you say people can get something for free or nearly free, then people will fall for it. Remember Ponzi?

        On the other hand, the fact that anomalous heat is generated by known experiments makes it more likely than less likely that some of these people who say they are creating LENR plants are scammers. It’s just human nature.

      • psi

        From the start of this it has always seemed to me that Rossi’s critics are largely composed of a kangaroo court that is expert at interpreting a complicated set of facts, amenable to more than one reasonable interpretation, in order to confirm their own prejudices. There is a difference between a serial scammer and an entrepreneur who runs into some hard luck and is stuck with a difficult situation. I still think Rossi looks more like the latter.

  • http://www.e-catworld.com admin

    When I first learned about the E-Cat almost three years ago, I was suspicious of its validity, and thought it was probable that it was some kind of hoax.

    But I decided to give it a fair hearing. Since that time I have studied as much as I can about it, and other LENR systems, and have to say that I have yet to find any information or evidence that points to a scam scenario. On the contrary I have become increasingly convinced of its validity.

    I’ve tried to summarize many of my reasons at this link: http://www.e-catworld.com/why-i-believe-in-the-e-cat/

    The third party report pubished earlier this year has, in my opinion, put to rest reasonable doubt about Rossi having what he claims.

    I am certainly not infallibe, but personally I’m convinced the Rossi Effect, or whatever one wants to call it, is real.

    • psi

      Me too.

  • Adrian Ashfield

    See http://www.lenrproof.com
    More than a few experiments and believers

    • CHARLES(SWVA)

      Thanks for this lead Adrian. I read it weeks ago and found it to be exceptionally convincing.

      As a long-ago engineer who worked a lot in Control Theory and Practice producing machine tool drives, my strongest belief is that the problem with LENR is the inability to control it. If I was Rossi, Defkalion or Brillouin, one of my biggest expenditures would be the hiring of top-flight people to work on the Controls and Feedback Theory of LENR. In essence, this would consist of sampling the output of the system (who, in the name of heavens, has any knowledge of what, where and how this sample would be taken) and using that information to control the input to the system whether that be the electrical signal or the hydrogen or whatever else is serving as input. Believe me, this is c r i t i c a l. You can’t just cram stuff in there and hope that the system will deal with it properly.

      It may be, however, that advances will have to be forthcoming in understanding the basic theory before the Control and Feedback can even be sensibly addressed.

      • Warthog

        This is pretty much the approach that Brillouin has taken, and they appear to be far in advance of either Rossi or Defkalion in having a control variable that works (the “Q” pulse…whatever that might be). Latest indication from them is that they have surpassed Rossi in both COP and maximum operating temperature.

        • cliff

          Since this question is about smelling like a hoax, think about your statement (the “Q” pulse…whatever that might be). Now that really sounds like a scam you’d see on the internet selling cheap energy.

          On the other hand, I’m relatively convinced that there are at least three and probably more companies that have working LENR and that competition between them, and hints about their individual discoveries will drive them all to improve their tech.

          • Warthog

            “Now that really sounds like a scam you’d see on the internet selling cheap energy.”

            Not if you bother to take the time to read what Brillouin has done. The data is on their website for all to see. The only thing “secret” about the “Q pulse” is the exact waveform and mode of application, which is quite obviously and quite rightly being held as a trade secret (assuming that Brillouin doesn’t have a patent application in process of examination by the Patent Office).

            • cliff

              Precisely my point. It “sounds” like a scam, but once you bother to read about, it looks more plausible. Transparency is a key. Working plants in public remove all doubts.

              I believe that there will be multiple ways to accomplish “the effect”. Brillouin’s method seems to be different than Rossi’s but does that mean that they both cannot work? No, indeed, both can work.

              Hey, did anyone else notice a spell check working on this editor now?

        • Omega Z

          Warthog

          Brillouin has speculated on high COP. Possibly 100.
          Presently they are pursuing a COP of 3

          Rossi has demonstrated COP>6 & tho he has allowed Data to be seen that’s indicated COP of 20 to 30 possible, Still stands by the Guarantee of 6 at this time.
          The 3rd party tests showed COP of 2.3 to 5.6, tho a very conservative measure. So Rossi’s COP>6 seems reasonably likely. Higher COP is probable, but still in the R&D likely due to safety & control issues. Yet to be worked out.

          I would Note that Focardi claimed Rossi reached a COP>200 in Lab tests though Rossi has always shied away from this. Probably to avoid people expecting something that may not be deliverable as a product. Neutrons were detected & as we know, this would be a Game Killer. People too.(No Products for You) Actually some numbers put forth was in the Range of up to COP-275.

          Also according to Cures leaks last year, Rossi has been able to maintain outer shell temps around 1200`C for many hours with Core temps within 10`C to 20`C of the Nickel melting point. Oh, And some melted. Pictures were released by 3rd party.

          Also some of the Data presented at ICCF18 indicated COP>1000 but details were vague.

          I think Brillouin’s knowledge of Rossi’s present work is very dated. Maybe 18 months behind. Rossi has come a long ways in control. Far beyond the Low temp E-cat.

          But All in All, I think it’s still a horse race. Rossi is still in the Lead. But when it’s close, anyone can make a sudden advance & everything can change in an instant. Thus the Reason for Rossi pushing & putting in long hours. He is aware of this.

          • Warthog

            “I think Brillouin’s knowledge of Rossi’s present work is very dated. Maybe 18 months behind. Rossi has come a long ways in control. Far beyond the Low temp E-cat.”

            I doubt that. They surely know all the info you have just nicely summarized, and since they have many contacts in the LENR community, probably know much more from informal discussions.

            I am still of the opinion that Brilluoin is probably well ahead of Rossi. A point that seems to be widely overlooked is the statement from Brillouin that they are investigating titanium and tungsten as substrates. The only likely reason for that is to be able to access MUCH higher temperatures than nickel will.

            If Brillouin brings a tungsten reactor to market and Rossi a nickel reactor…….I think the result is obvious.

            • Omega Z

              Rossi has also played with Tungsten & Titanium. Mentioned in 1 of his posts.

              Having seen mention of their possibilities elsewhere for use a few days latter, I went back to JONP to reread it.
              ACK. It was gone. Rossi deleted it.

              So I’m sure Rossi is aware, but focusing on the NI/H to come to market.

              Brillouin had mentioned this exact Control issue of Rossi’s clear back in early 2012. This was when Rossi was involved with N.I. & had brought in the Guy who helped design the programming for his new control board. Rossi was well aware of the control issue. Most of it was managed hands on,manually, Likely due to cash flow problems up until then. I’d note that According to the 3rd party testers that Rossi also uses a Pulse system of sorts. Rossi is secretive so we don’t know exactly what that entails. Electric, magnetic, Rf???

              The thing with interviews is that there used to gain attention for funding & Jockeying for position. This is common. Would you admit that your competitor had overcome an issue? I wouldn’t.

              Truth is each of these entities are ahead of the other in some areas & behind in others. All this could change in an instant.

              Also, I admit I’m Bias. Rossi brought this to our attention. Without which most of us would be unaware. And DGT wouldn’t even Exist. I want him to get to market & receive his rewards for his hard work, money invested & all the abuse he has suffered. I Don’t think I’m wrong for that.

              That Said. I want all them to come to market. Variety & Competition is good. And though I think Rossi would try to provide the best product he can for the best price possible, He will not be manufacturing them. Thus there is no Guarantee of this. We’re in the dark.

              I also see that tho each takes a different approach, They all have their shortcomings in use. On/Off times seems common in all of them.

              I’m also interested in the Black Light System of Mills. If it accomplishes just half whats been laid out/proposed, It could end up being the overall best system.

              However, It likely wont be cheap on the front end at All. Most may not be able to afford it. And I fully expect it to be many more years in the making.

              So in the Interim, We will need Rossi & his competitors to fill the Gap.

              • Warthog

                I have seen titanium and tungsten mentioned several places in the LENR “gossip universe”, but missed that it was also on JONP.

                I’ve even seen some info that indicated that one of Edison’s top researchers (Irving Langmuir IIRC) observed “odd” behavior when researching possible fill gases to use with Edison’s tungsten-filament bulbs when hydrogen was tried. But he failed to follow up.

                Competition is good. I think Rossi’s place in history is already certain, at minimum as the person who “ressurected” Pons/Fleischmann’s work.

                And there are a lot of researchers who get less mention than Rossi, Defkalion and Brillouin. A real horse race.

                I think the one thing that we can be assured of is that the ability of the pathological skeptics to keep things bottled up is disappearing at quite a rapid rate.

          • cliff

            I totally agree with you. This is so cool! I love competition because it drives innovation and speed to market. Eventually, they may settle on a single way of doing things, but maybe not. Maybe different ways of controlling the plants will be more useful for different applications.

            The main difference between Rossi’s approach and Brillouin’s seems to be that Rossi wants to manufacture plants and Brillouin wants to sell his tech to someone who will manufacture it. If I’m wrong, please let me know.