District Heat and AC Systems Early E-Cat Applications [Updated]

From this exchange yesterday on the Journal of Nuclear Physics we can maybe glean something of Rossi & co.’s early commercial strategy.

Herb Gillis
September 5th, 2013 at 7:35 PM
Dear Dr. Rossi:
Are district heating and district air conditioning among the industrial applications that your R&D team are testing? It seems to me these are the sorts of industry applications that could be exploited the most quickly (short term).
Kind Regards; HRG.

Andrea Rossi
September 5th, 2013 at 10:22 PM
Herb Gillis:
Yes, you are right.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

My understanding is that the Swedish pilot project that is planned by Hydro Fusion will be a distributed heating project in which the customer will use to sell heat to the end users. Andrea Rossi mentioned earlier this year that the first 1 MW plant that was built in Italy and shipped to the US was to be used by the American partner to sell heat to end users.

Since the output of an E-Cat plant is heat, the simplest application to engineer is going to be heating systems (air conditioning will take more engineering) and since the first plants to appear on the market will apparently be industrial models, it would make sense to install them in ‘district heating’ systems which are quite common in certain parts of the world — particularly in northern Europe.

Here’s a short definition of district heating from the European Association for the Promotion of Cogeneration.

District heating means a system supplying heat produced centrally in one or several locations to a non-restricted number of customers. It is distributed on a commercial basis by means of a distribution network using hot water or steam as a medium. As district heat is produced centrally, its use allows central removal of harmful substances, which leads to a better overall environmental protection level.

District heating systems can vary substantially in size, from systems supplying only a few buildings, to system that supplies entire capital cities.

From Rossi and co.’s perspective providing centralized heat could be attractive if they follow a strategy of not selling the plants, but selling the energy. They could enter into agreements with heating providers to supply them the plant, perhaps without cost, and then charge a certain amount on the energy used, thus retaining ownership and control of their plant as a way to help protect their IP.

UPDATE: Andrea Rossi responded to a comment asking whether heating for a condominium would be a form of district heat. Rossi responded.

Gherardo:
No, is a different thing. Condominium is a domestic building, it is a domestic application, even if extended to tenths of apartments of a big condominium. District heating is a centralized heat distribution system in a district. In this case it is not a domestic application, but an industrial facility, which sells the heat to all the houses and the condominiums of a district. A district is a section of a town.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

  • AB

    Roger Bird, any news from ELFORSK?

    • Roger Bird

      No news. And no news is GOOD NEWS!!!!!!!! If she had no knowledge of Rossi, she would have responded with, “I don’t know what you are talking about”. If Rossi and the E-cat were a big secret, she would have not responded. She didn’t respond. Things are going on.

      Of course, I sent the e-mail at a time which would be late Friday, and she very well may have not seen it yet. She still might respond.

  • Jonas

    What the..? I want one in my house, not continue to pay off some electric company, preserving the status quo of capitalists now able to make even more money off of me..! Is it to Defkalion I will have to turn?

    • sc1ttl

      think suppply and demand. any redistribution and reuction of se for power allows greater supply in other areas and price reduction in which you will take part.

      Just look at what fracking has done to the US power import curves.

  • Omega Z

    For those unaware, The U.S. already has district heating in many of the Big Cities. New York City for 1 with many miles of steam pipes.

    1Mw E-cats with the ability to produce electricity would fit right in. District heat system already installed & though I’m not aware of heat absorption chillers for single residence, I’m aware they are available for Hugh hi-rise facilities Etc.. Commercial/Industrial Grade.

    This would provide a very efficient utilization of the E-cat(Possible in the 80% range) with a much shorter payback.

    This would very likely fall under the Industrial/commercial use safety certificates.

    Not what most Rossi followers are looking for but, it would provide the necessary safety data collection for the individual home systems.

  • artefact

    from JONP:

    Giuliano Bettini
    September 6th, 2013 at 1:32 PM
    Dear Andrea,
    in Italy, these guys take it for granted that the “6 months long validation test” relates to the Hot Cat.
    But I am not sure.
    You said:
    “The E-Cats under test have been manufactured completely in the USA, in the factory of the US Manufacturer, indipendently from me…” Hot Cat?
    The test “is in the USA factory of a Customer.” Hot Cat?
    http://www.nextme.it/scienza/energia/6232-fusione-fredda-hot-e-cat-test-usa
    Warm Regards,
    Giuliano Bettini

    ###

    Andrea Rossi
    September 6th, 2013 at 3:11 PM
    Giuliano Bettini:
    We must make a distinction.
    We are working on all our lines of products, to test and validate them with a rigorous work.
    The long term third indipendent party validation is related to a battery of Hot Cats.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

    • Jimr

      Thank you. this is the type of information we need as apposed to everyones opinion.

    • Jim

      Thanks, answered my question on what type of e-cat.

    • http://www.lenr-forum.com barty

      Battery of Hot Cats…is this meaning the testers can operate on more than one Hot Cat?

      • fortyniner

        Another single ‘black box’ to test, I would imagine, in this case containing a number of small hot cat units plus anciliaries.

        My guess would be that multiple units might allow ‘cascading’ start-up with reduced primary input, and/or provide greater stability by means of programmed duty cycling and shared thermal mass.

        • Thinks4Self

          Could be the 1MW hot cat plant that Rossi said would be about the size of an industrial barrel. If he is working with the US military that is what they would want in short order.

          • Jimr

            Interesting, could you point me to an entry where Rossi refered to the barrel size 1 meg unit. Thanks

            • http://www.e-catworld.com admin
              • Jimr

                Thank you, its the aggregate of the 100 hot cat internal dimensions that would total the size of a barrel. Had me all excited for a while, thought I had missed something over the last 2 1/2 years.

                • Thinks4Self

                  You missed the footnote.

                  UPDATE: This comment from Rossi clarifies the design:

                  Dear Franco:
                  Attention: the dimensions 1.2 x 0.4 is not the surface of the surface of the reactors! Inside this drum of 1.2 x 0.4 m there are 100 reactors , each of one having about 1 200 cm^2 of surface !
                  I talked of the dimensions of the external container, not of the heat exchange surface !

                  Follow the Admins link again.

  • LB

    There will never be a cheap e-cat until the “secret” is known.
    You will have to pay the same price or maybe slightly more for the energy from an- e-cat beacause you are a enviromentalist arn’t you?
    Look at the electric car, you will newer get a really cheap electric car. The manufacturer can easily calculate how much you are willing to pay and they will increase the price of the car to make up for the lower cost for propulsion energy.
    That’s why the e-cat will show up in district heating. You pay the same, the utility makes the profit.

    • GreenWin

      This makes a perfect opportunity for independent, community or privately owned local power companies. About 12% of all electric sales in the US are made by cooperatives. More than 900 separate not-for-profit rural electric cooperatives and public power districts provide retail electric service to more than 42 million consumers in 47 states.

      These co-ops will form the foundation of the new electric infrastructure in the US and internationally. Organizations such as the NRECA are now catching up on the new paradigm of abundance vs “not enough.” We no longer need the fear driven climate campaign as LENR addresses and corrects all climate issues – except the carbon trading schemes dreamed up by Wall Street and Algore (who will find success in support of cold fusion.)

      http://www.nreca.coop/

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Right, and Germany is way ahead of everyone in building that co-operative/distributed infrastructure. Makes you wonder why they are doing it, maybe LENR has something to do with it? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23127175

        • Warthog

          Bit of German hubris there. The REA (Rural Electrical Administration) of cooperatives was begun in the USA back in the 1940’s. I suspect there were non-government energy co-ops much earlier than that.

          And the most of “built into the building” energy features the article touts were used by the Shakers (US communal religious sect) back in the late 1700’s. Touring a Shaker village is quite an education about efficient small scale energy usage even with what are now “low tech” methods.

        • Jim Anderson

          One important reason Germany has built co-operative/distributed infrastructure is that they already have a large use of distributed energy prodiction with their use of solar energy production. Their system would seem to be preadapted to another distributed source of energy like LENR.

  • Tappanjack

    Interesting price appreciation for Siemens this week without any material evidence.

  • georgehants

    Physicists find a compound to more efficiently convert waste heat to electrical power
    Physicists at the University of Houston’s physics department and the Texas Center for Superconductivity are working on an innovation that could boost vehicle mileage by 5 percent and power plant and industrial processing performance as much as 10 percent.
    Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-09-physicists-compound-efficiently-electrical-power.html#jCp

  • Roger Bird

    I sent an email yesterday to a lady named Monika Adsten at Elforsk in Marketing asking her about any information she might have about Rossi and the E-Cat. I await a reply, but am not holding my breath.

  • RP

    To see industrial e-cat products you can look at prometeon’s site (Prometeon is e-cat reseller in Italy)
    http://www.prometeon.it/prodotti.php

    • Eyedoc

      Nice find!…. now if only I could read Italian

      • Jim

        Google will translate nicely

  • Joseph J

    District heating worldwide also in the US.
    http://www.districtenergy.org/
    “financed by institutions totally indipendent from us”?
    Is it IDEA? Members of IDEA are for example GE and Honeywell.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Anyway last time it was Elforsk, it’s not impossible that they continue.

      • Omega Z

        Very likely Elforsk as it was shown in their proposed Budget. Somewhere around $250K U.S.

        Also the test was in connection with the same people.