New Poll: Best Model for LENR Proliferation

We’ve had some spirited discussion here regarding how best to bring LENR technology to the world, and I thought it might be interesting to put up a poll on the topic. A large majority of readers who visit E-Cat World don’t commment here, and I think it would be informative to find out what a larger sample of readers think on the topic.

See the poll in the right sidebar, and as always feel free to explain your position further.

  • bean

    Disruptive technologies are usually “bottom up” phenomenon not top down. Big corporations are not innovative. Patents cut two ways in the process. Big corporations use them to control competition. Small innovative companies use them to keep from being controlled so that their innovation process can continue. Big pharma is a classic example of patents choking innovation.

    Assuming a technology is truly disruptive [it is significantly lower cost and functions significantly better than the technology it replaces] Speed of adoption is the result of “networks”. The more wide distributed and networked a phenomenon is, the faster it spreads. The previous article on the business model of electric utilities is an example of the impact of innovative technologies. Innovative electrical energy sources are disruptive and they are spreading fairly rapidly because there is a ready built network [ the US power grid]. If electrical utilities corporations had to develop an effective long range strategy, it should be to sell access to a power grid. In the long run, their most valuable asset and product is their network [power grid], not their electricity.

    If LENR is a disruptive technology [it is significantly lower cost and functions significantly better than the technology it replaces] then it would be adopted faster if it remained a “bottom up” technology that was widely distributed or readily available and easily networked. This would argue for an open source [the information on the technology is networked] low cost system that could take advantage of existing physical networks or replace the need for existing physical networks.

    LENR should follow the cell phone model. Readily accessible, low cost, widely distributed and networked. Attempting to centralize the technology and make LENR technology that replaces centralized “big power” is a mistake since it ends up forcing a “top down” approach that lacks innovation, controls competition, is inflexible, and reduces the rate of adoption. If LENR is to be disruptive and innovative, it should be used to develop small scale or end user widely networked electrical production and to replace end user heating requirements now being met by natural gas networks.

  • Buck

    I think it an error to propose that only one model is appropriate as the market proliferates. An argument can easily be presented which supports a mix of the proposed alternatives.

    At this stage, I suggest Big Energy is an active participant in how the Energy market will evolve. Pressure groups with common economic interests are present and involve to some degree the Government. I suggest it inappropriate to presume that the market will evolve in a free fashion. The profits on a $5T global industry protecting itself has ensured this perspective.

    Free Market Capitalists will point towards Patent Protection with the roll-out or Trade Secrets due to the compromised behavior of the USPTO. Economic and Social theory say that these paths will ensure maximum utility for society.

    If the premise is accepted that the Game of the Millennium has been jiggered and will be jiggered during the coming decades of transition by vested interests, then I suggest this expands the focus from “Maximizing Profits serves the Best Interest of Society” to include “Who/What is Protecting the Public Good of Universal Access to the Benefits of Clean Extremely Inexpensive Energy”.

    I propose a mixture of the primary three alternatives as the global market is far too complex and varied in how it utilizes energy. The Free Market solutions are a fantastic way of motivating the matching of needs and solutions.

    The inclusion of the ‘Open Source’ (OS) acts as a representative protecting the Public Good.

    As offered in another thread:

    I believe a limited understanding of OS has diminished our ability to understand and recognize existing concrete examples in the modern capitalistic societies.

    Let me use the example of Farmer Cooperatives (FC). Before their existence, the big buyer of farm goods held far more bargaining power than individual small family farms and the buyers worked that power. This of course pissed off the hard working farmers and they came together to form FC as a means to balance the negotiating power.

    For LENR, we have the individual buyers of energy and Big Energy controlling a $5T global industry.

    OS is the construct of the individual buyers looking to balance the obvious economic power of Big Energy. The development and protection of a baseline LENR engineered product by an LENR OS organization aids in balancing the divergent economic interests.

    It does not remove competition. If anything, it expands competition because the individual is now represented by an 800 pound gorilla that refuses to be ignored or stopped by Big Energy.

    To repeat, OS Expands Competition and that really pisses off Big Energy. Especially as OS, as I’ve defined it, is a valid economic entity in a Free Market economy.

  • georgehants

    New Scientist
    It’s a Myth That Entrepreneurs Drive New Technology
    For real innovation, thank the state.
    Images of tech entrepreneurs such as Mark Zuckerberg and Steve Jobs are continually thrown at us by politicians, economists, and the media. The message is that innovation is best left in the hands of these individuals and the wider private sector, and that the state—bureaucratic and sluggish—should keep out. A telling 2012 article in the Economist claimed that, to be innovative, governments must “stick to the basics” such as spending on infrastructure, education, and skills, leaving the rest to the revolutionary garage tinkerers.
    Yet it is ideology, not evidence, that fuels this image. A quick look at the pioneering technologies of the past century points to the state, not the private sector, as the most decisive player in the game.
    http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/new_scientist/2013/09/entrepreneurs_or_the_state_innovation_comes_from_public_investment.html

    • AlainCo

      Maybe the error is to imagine that the government is right in giving the direction.Maybe you are right that they give the cash.
      I agree also that the corps have no more brain than state, so no difference.

      The problem today is that instead of giving their cash to crazy projects because of lack of good control, and catching a blackswan by mistake, the government and the corps try to enforce rigorous criteria, planned targets, and thus comprehensively fail to hunt the blackswan.

      it is also that the history is rewritten so that people forget the early innovators, who did the job in their garage, on their hidden lab, breaking the rules, or missing the planned target, yet catching the unexpected…
      there are also some practitioners team who find the real tricks, and the rewritten history forget them.

      prepare for such rewriting for LENR.

      It is not whether state, corp, of finance, it is about garage inventors, innovators, funded by people who don’t respect a really rational plan.

      did you know that before he published in 1989, fleischmann worked independently for his university (at home I think).

      what did Rossi, Defkalion, Biberian, … Spawar and NRL are state sponsored, but you see with spawar that as soon as the hierarchy is aware of their research they get dismantled.

      to hunt blackswan, you have to go where there is no rational reason to go.

      • georgehants

        It is only the end result that counts.
        So much talk, no bloody action.
        Will the World ever wake-up.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          “The journey is the reward”

          ― Steve Jobs

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Also a Chinese proverb.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      The problem is we are increasingly letting Washington lobbyists decide where the money is going.

    • Omega Z

      George

      Society only exists due to the Scientific Community.
      Society only exists due to the Education System.
      Society only exists due to Government Organization.

      These Claims are to legitimize their Positions of Power & Self Importance & assure their continued Existence.

      Science Community started when the 1st human looked up & said I Wonder? Note that the Scientific hierarchy gets upset when 1 of their own spouts that 80% of innovation comes from the masses.

      The Education System began when the 1st parent started passing on their knowledge to their children & started the 1st apprenticeship.

      Government started when the 1st group of people couldn’t agree on what course of actions to take & appointed the 1st Leader. (Or submitted to the 1st Alpha.)

      So, Evidence says all these Entities are Creations/Developments of Society. The reverse of their propaganda.

      According to the article, Innovation couldn’t exist, And people like Jobs & Woz would never have brought Apple to market without Government money. They were selling them prior to the Funding. The Funding only sped up the process & even had they not succeeded, Someone else would have. With or without the Government.

      The Claims of the Internet are also not totally accurate.
      Late 70’s, early 80’s, Private individuals were in the process of building a private system. 3 computers could be linked at any given time and if someone wanted to pop for conference call ability, more could be linked. Kind of a throw back to multiparty lines.

      DARPA, Government involvement sped this up, but likely not for the reasons given. They had other motives. But Regardless, it was coming. It’s a natural progression from the People.

      The Purpose of the U.S. Government from the beginning was intended for national defense and eventually to do what was to big for Individuals or groups to do or to at least pave the way to make it easier. That is specifically why the U.S. Government had so many limitations placed on it by the Constitution. And so few powers granted outright. Originally.

      They’ve forgotten their place. Of the people by the people for the people. One Politician not long ago says it all when the possibility of frozen or reduced wages came up.

      What about the prestige of the Job. With lower wages you’ll end up with a Lower, er, ah, Less qualified people in power.
      What I heard in the pause was Lower class people. The Common man. The People who are their employers. Government should be re-informed of their place.

      To Clarify 1 thing: I point the finger at the hierarchy. There are many Scientists, Teachers, & Government Employees who do a very good job.- Within the Constraints of the Power Mongers.

  • georgehants

    The Telegraph
    Radiation at Fukushima spikes as Japan holds earthquake drill
    Radiation near a tank holding highly contaminated water at Japan’s Fukushima nuclear plant has spiked 18-fold, as more than one million Japanese took part in an earthquake drill.
    With no one seeming to know how to bring the crisis to an end, Tepco said last week it would invite foreign decommissioning experts to advise it on how to deal with the highly radioactive water leaking from the site.
    http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Hot+Topics/Fukushima+Nuclear+Crisis

    • fortyniner

      And now the sea off Fukushima seems to be ‘boiling’. Apparently the photo was taken shortly after a major release of contaminated water so this may possibly ‘just’ be sea mist caused by the massive release of relatively warm water.

      But if a crack in the seabed is allowing seawater to come into direct contact with one of the molten cores, we are all in very deep sh*t now.

      http://beforeitsnews.com/japan-earthquake/2013/08/boiling-sea-off-fukushima-viral-photo-of-the-day-2443616.html

      http://imgace.com/pic/2013/08/fukushima-crisis-escalates-radioative-material-makes-ocean-boil/

    • fortyniner

      For anyone still believing that the Fukushima crisis is being hyped by anti-nuclear lobbyists, this documentary on the current management situation (minus the ‘boiling’ sea) is very informative:

      http://mikephilbin.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/nuclear-watch-fukushima-daichi-getting.html

      • Dr Bob

        I have heard (and written) a lot about these things during the last days.
        Its very sad… very very sad

        The lies, the scale of the catastrophe…
        I feel so bad for the workers and their families.

        I imagine the horrible working conditions… dont tell the new guy… they will leave after the first day… some of the workers might just suddenly disappear with no explanation given …. bad weather, the smells, like a nightmare… the worst place on earth…

    • NEWFIRE

      Technology does exist that will transmute the radioactive waste into another non radioactive element, while generating commercial amounts of electricity. Please examine the nexus between Global Energy Corporation, Guam, Frank Carlucci, and the GeNiE Reactor. Hope is on the way. George Miley also has a machine that will do the same thing essentially. Let’s get on the Stick.
      Paul
      http://www.coldfusionnow.org

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Why would anyone in their right mind publish their intellectual property in a patent so China can steal it?

    • georgehants

      Bernie, in a non-capatilistic World people would work for humanity as well as personal gain and recognition, that are of course important to satisfy the ego.
      The answer to your question is the feeling of knowing that you have helped save the lives and health of perhaps millions of those people not lucky enough to be in a position to receive these things.
      It is just a personal philosophy of either take for one’s self or try to benefit everybody.
      No good going round in circles trying to justify inequality and greed etc, one either cares or one does not and the arguments are just a smokescreen to try and justify unfair excessive gain for some.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        georgehants…you are describing Utopia, history and nature has proven human actions will always be on the side of self preservation. The capitalistic system, with regulation,is the best system devised, so far, to coral that human instinct.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          georgehants, Right, until we find a better system we can agree on, we are stuck with Capitalism. The best we can hope for is a highly regulated form of Capitalism. But that effort has been in reverse since 1980.

        • Robert Ellefson

          Confirmation bias at work again, it seems. Please tell me where you found a conclusive summary that “proves” any particular course of human actions will be taken in any given situation? Individuals can and should draw their own conclusions from the lessons of history, but please don’t try to elevate any such interpretations of human behavior into some form of “proven” truth. These types of assertions become self-fulfilling prophecies, and I truly believe that they are the greatest single factor in holding back the progress of civilization.

          • Roger Bird

            History demonstrates conclusively that humanity has not yet reached a high enough moral level to sustain a socialist economy. These systems work in most families and some small communes, but I am looking at 330,000,000 strangers and perhaps 100 friends. Do you really think that I can be inspired to work hard by the thought that I am helping 330,000,000 strangers. This becomes impossible should I even think that even some of those 330,000,000 are slacking and taking advantage of my hard work. I currently hate ObamaCare because I see that I work hard to be healthy and most people are NOT but would rather eat toasted Wonder Bread and margarine than make any effort to make themselves healthy.

            • Robert Ellefson

              The notion of sharing knowledge does not equate to socialism. I’m pretty sure it has nothing to do with “ObamaCare” either. These are all straw-man arguments.

              I myself am an inventor with shameless aspirations to profit from the fruits of my labor. However, I am working on humble tools that at best will improve the work of some small number of people. Rossi is controlling the single-largest key to the future of life on earth right now. There is a difference, and it’s not a subtle one.

  • georgehants

    I think the Best Model for LENR Proliferation is for one of the premier scientific comics to write a honest, unbiased editorial giving the Evidence for a Cold Fusion effect.
    That one publication would open the media and the public to the situation.
    If there is not any reliable Evidence for Cold Fusion that can be published then what the hell are we all wasting our time here for.
    Either there is Evidence for Cold Fusion or there is not and if so why is it not being published by the only overall responsible source, main-line science.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    It’s sad to see the panhandlers outnumber the free enterprisers on the poll. The end of civilization is near. I’m prepared.

    • Roger Bird

      Iggy, so not confuse panhandlers with those who want to help panhandlers. And don’t confuse those who want to help panhandlers with those who want to take the stigma off of those who panhandle. There is a place for those who stigmatize panhandlers and for those who want to help panhandlers stop being panhandlers, sort of like the carrot and the stick. But I see no good coming from saying that being a panhandler is a good thing.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Joannes Van den Bogaert’s patent (BE1003296) was sequestered by the Belgium Ministry of Defense for a period of time. So, this is a problem one may encounter when going for a patent.

  • Barry

    Brillouin Energy donated $1000 to MFMP. How’s that for class?

    • catbauer24

      +1

    • Roger Bird

      That is very classy. Even for Brillouin that should be a significant chunk of change and time necessary for busy people to send the money.

    • http://www.drboblog.com Dr Bob

      +1
      Its not about the money apparently!
      I like that!

  • Omega Z

    Open sourcing would Not produce the results many expect.

    Rossi’s competitor’s(They already believe) may scramble to study his knowledge, But they would continue on to develop their own IP that can be patented. Then Sold.

    As far as the rest of the World, There is a limited pool of people qualified for this work & many are already engaged in their own work. There not going to jump ship. Besides that, Many are of the Opinion that this is Bunk. Junk Science. They Risk their reputations & Jobs even considering it.

    You end up with but a few more involved with something that is still R&D and likely have stopped or at least Greatly delayed Rossi’s own work as his funding will dry up.

    That’s if Rossi could even open source this. If he truly has a Partner/investors, This is all beyond the point of consideration. No longer up to Rossi. It is not his to give.

    Regardless who brings this to market, It will still require several million operational hours of Data collection before it can be safety certified for general consumers.

    Also, just because we are aware of E-cat Technology & it’s possibilities, Nearly all the world is Ignorant of it & the story they would receive from the Mainstream is it’s bunk, junk science, Scam. Few would pay any attention to it, donate to or finance it.

    Rossi could put up a 24/7 2 year Live demo & gain little additional support. Even suggestions of 3rd party tests don’t really hold water as Few would actually be carried out by those who propose them. Most of these are empty arguments to attack Rossi.

    Rossi is Right. Only working products exposed by Real Customers will open the Gate to it’s reality.

  • kasom

    this poll is a beautiful distraction from some questions:

    Where ist the 1 MW Low Temp Cat delivered from Italy now,
    when will it be accessible,
    what about the military customer meanwhile has he reported to its government and why doesn’t anybody know about, is there a 6 month test, what is the answer from Levi et al. to the critics, has Hydrofusion placed an order for a pilot customer in Sweden, has the german investors group around Transaltec placed an order, has Roger Green told the truth, that not a single 1MW e-cat has been sold, what about the HotCat prototype delivered to the partner together with the 1 MW container from italy, sorry, I forgot the question marks, take what you need (???????????????)

    • Andy Kumar

      “sorry, I forgot the question marks, take what you need (???????????????)”

      LOL.

      -Andy

  • Kim

    The best model for LENR Proliferation is proliferation.

    Stalling is the model.

    Kim

  • catbauer24

    It is against Rossi’s interest (and his hopes even) for others to advance their research… others being the rest of the world in this case. In other words, the advancement of others’ research are at odds with his, if they are to reproduce exactly what he claims.

    • GreenWin

      Isn’t it doubtful Rossi has a say in Naval Research lab, LANL, NASA, DARPA, DIA, EU, ENEA, university and private sector (Toyota, Mitsubishi, DGT) etc??? Were a lab able to reproduce the Rossi Effect, would not the technology excel?

      Certainly the US Energy business is all a flutter and infrastructure is changing daily: http://now.msn.com/electrical-grid-in-us-is-on-the-brink-of-failure-experts-say

      LENR might be just the right solution for inevitable collapse of the US electrical grid.

      • catbauer24

        Greenwin, the only ‘Rossi Effect’ anyone knows of is the combination of claims, delay, and secrecy.

        Did you mean the generalized P&F effect, or perhaps the ‘Focardi Effect’?

        • GreenWin

          Likely the effect that caused Rear Admiral Patrick Brady, commander of SPAWAR, to order SPAWAR researchers to darken LENR research. The order came seven days after Fox News published a story about Andrea Rossi’s Oct. 28, 2011, demonstration of his Energy Catalyzer and the attendance of SPAWAR employee Paul Swanson at that demonstration in Bologna Italy.

          • GreenWin

            Correction, Swanson attended the Oct 6, 2011 demo in Bologna.

  • GreenWin

    This is a difficult poll in as much as the hurdles to energy revolution are many and high. Had the publish & patent system worked as intended – we would have commercial LENR today. USPTO is broken or corrupt with respect to this technology.

    Thus, the commercial road has been forced to make many diversions, to avoid USPTO, narrow academics, self-involved scientists, military secrecy, and the wrath of fossils. It is a circuitous route. IMO, Rossi is making a reasoned go of it via patent/trade secret. However, pressure on governments to acknowledge and invest in LENR will lead to rapid adoption of Open Source. A $1B NewFire Prize awarded to the first commercially viable LENR electric generator might help catalyze the field.

  • Bård Havre

    Rossi is obviously following a track to maximize his profits. Keep your secrets as long as possible, file for patents shortly before going public. This is the path all profitable enterprises, especially pharmaceutical companies follow. It is obvious that to attract investors you need IP. There is already enough information floating around to enable any MMTB (MoreMoneyThanBrains)to try to outrun Rossi bringing products to the market without patents. He/She will be stopped dead in their tracks by lawsuits for infringements once the already filed patents are in the Public domain. But if you have money to burn go ahead.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Back in the 70s my uncle was the manager for a farm equipment manufacturer and he opined that patents were pretty much useless at that time.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        “A verbal contract isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.”
        – Samuel Goldwyn

  • ebevogon

    Two comments of the Fleischmann Memorial Project make it clear that up to now cold fusion effects never could be replicated. Hence I cannot understand why people which have serious doubts about the existence of cold fusion are often called “patho-sceptics” in this blog. Or should we call most members of this blog “patho-naives”?

    Here the two comments.

    …We simply call it the “New Fire” because, if validated, it has the potential to replace most of the combustion energy sources in our world today…

    comment !!!if validated !!!

    ….Unfortunately, though, the effect was not as easy to replicate as it appeared, and replication is the key to science. Within a few short months, three prestigious labs tried and failed ….

    • artefact

      on Facebook:

      Lightening strike at US research facility

      The US differential experiment is producing some compelling data. A similar experiment is readying in France, if we see something similar there, we might be able to start claiming something. Head over to this thread to follow the discussion.

      http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php…ani-cell-tests

      Exciting times.

    • Roger Bird

      ebevogon, to the best of my knowledge, no skeptic has ever been called a skeptopath here or any where else. A skeptopath is a different sort of creature who refuses to look at the evidence and is not motivated to get at the truth but is motivated to shut down reason and maintain the the status quo. It is sometimes difficult to tell the difference. Scientific skeptic may continue to disbelieve in LENR. A skeptopath will NEVER believe in LENR. It is like the attractive woman who says that she wants to lose weight, versus the anorexic who clearly does not need to lose weight. It would be possible to talk the attractive woman out of trying to lose weight, but you can forget about trying to talk the anorexic out of trying to lose weight.

      Skeptopathology really is a sickness. I have dealt with them for about 16 years in the alternative health realm. There is no reasoning with them. And they have a very poor handle on other human beings.

      • John-64

        Yeah, I’ve been called a skeptopathic, by fortyniner. I’m not, I just don’t trust Rossi. I also have believed in cold fusion since the early 90’s.

      • ebevogon

        You are in error, please look through the comments of this blog and you will find expressions like “pathological sceptic” or “pathosceptic” quite frequently, I just did it again to be sure that I made no mistake. When I used the term “patho naive” I just wanted to show a mirror. It was not my intention to offend anybody. By the way, if I had the impression to be the only of the despised sceptics following this blog, I would not have given any contribution. But my Impression was, that before the so-called third Party Report appeared, several attenders of this blog got serious doubts about Rossi’s claims too. I think they have good reasons and I advertize that sceptics and convinced show respect each other.

        • Roger Bird

          Sorry about that. I personally expect and hope that people who first come here are skeptical. I WANT you to be skeptical. And I am sorry if people have been mean to you. It is idiotic to expect everyone to see the world and to approach the world exactly as one does. There are several people here who think that as soon as they say that X is true that everyone else should also believe it or even have the time and inclination to investigate it.

          However, if someone is pointed at evidence and they refuse to investigate it over and over and over and over, it begins to seem like anorexia nervosa. That is pathological.

  • fortyniner

    I am assuming that the ‘best commercial model’ refers to the optimal route for development and proliferation of cold fusion rather than what is best for CF inventors. Given that assumption, then the question in effect becomes: “Which of the following would most probably lead to the widest adoption of CF in the shortest time”.

    IMO, the answer to this is that open sourcing would clearly outpace any of the alternatives by a massive factor, as a hundred thousand companies worldwide stampede to get a piece of the action. Only patent disclosure would come anywhere near, as this would amount to much the same thing, only with endless IP battles which could slow things down immensely.

    Unfortunately what we are actually likely to get is ‘Other’ – a hidden scramble by the corporate energy sector (including nuclear) to acquire control of CF technology so it can be suppressed (but also quietly developed) for as long as possible, i.e., until the dam breaks at some point. At this time it seems likely that the race will be on to reap the most profits possible in the shortest time – without of course allowing anyone outside the ‘system’ to participate in this gold rush.

    • georgehants

      Morning Peter, soon be three years from that first New Scientist report on Rossi and I do not believe they have written another word about Cold Fusion.
      My hair is getting whiter each year but I am sure that soon we will have some completely indisputable Evidence for high output Cold Fusion and the U.N. will announce a weeks holiday for everybody in celebration of the achievement.
      All the big power company’s etc. will donate funds for the party.

      • fortyniner

        Morning George. As I said before, whatever you’re on – I want some!

        I think perhaps a few of us have been too close to this story for too long, and may have had our expectations of steady progress raised too high when Rossi was in his communicative phase. Now that things have gone quiet it is difficult not to feel increasing frustration, even though what is happening may just be healthy commercial secrecy.

        I worry though that the silence may become semi-permanent, as understandable commercial reticence drifts into something more sinister. I’m less concerned with indisputable proof of LENR’s reality than with evidence that development continues, even if this is behind closed doors, and that commercialisation ASAP really is still on course. The GEC/JWK story mentioned a few threads back seems to indicate that this may be far from assured.

        • GreenWin

          Morning gents. Peter’s “closed doors” scenario is at work I think. Evidence for it arrives in rapid infrastructure change – especially in US and Germany. We are seeing the methodical disruption of the central power model by Distributed Energy. This paves the road to local and district distributed resources via microgrid.

          Regardless of Rossi’s adventure, without infrastructure adaptation, LENR cannot flourish. As business and politics realize the century-old grid is doomed, acceptance of new, disruptive alternatives becomes palatable.

    • jazzy

      forty-niner, you give way too much credit to “corporate energy” Suppression won’t be the issue. The issue is regulation, capital and efficiency. The new fire has to be deemed safe, and more economic to displace fossil energy. Even though as reported the energy density is very high, the device has to be reliable and has to output a LOT of heat, and here is the key, that can be trasfered to a working fluid. Even then it is not going to replace the internal combustion engine anytime soon…try pulling a tractor trailer up a 6 perc grade with a steam engine.

      • fortyniner

        Jazzy, what you are referring to is essentially ‘phase 2’ (technical development and commercialisation) – I was limiting myself to the question of proliferation of the basic knowledge of how to construct a high-output cold fusion reactor of the ‘hot cat’ type.

        As CF reactors seem to be relatively simple beasts, the capital cost of initial experimentation with working reactors are likely to be modest – possibly so modest that every garage experimenter in the world could ‘have a go’. Certainly reproducing a ‘hot cat’, given complete open source information’ should be easily possible, even if development of a workable multi-megawatt reactor might be the province of larger engineering concerns only. Requirements for scientific expertise on the part of developers will probably be relatively minimal, especially when reputable scientists eventually overcome their prejudices and unravel the modus operandi of cold fusion.

        If (as I am guessing will be the case) first use is in industrial steam-cycle generators owned by each company that has acquired the tech, then the regulatory hurdles are limited to workplace safety only. As for economy, reliability etc., either the technology will evolve quite quickly to meet these requirements, or there is a fundamental problem that will mean that CF is not a practical proposition as an energy source. However, none of these issues relate to initial proliferation of the basic technology.

        BTW, the torque developed by steam engines is way more than any IC engine of similar capacity. The problem with steam tractors (traction engines) was mainly the weight, high centre of gravity and inefficient design, combined with a lack of variable gearing. A ‘first principles’ modern design powered by CF could certainly compete with diesel. Early steam cars were much faster and more powerful than their IC equivalents – it was mainly the cost and the need for water supplies, together with political knifing initiated by the petrol lobby that did for the technology.

        http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=111227

  • catbauer24

    It will absolutely be copied once released (AR agrees too, no matter patents). With that said, it would be a foolish gamble for one entity, even a large one, to bank an entire stockpile of goods and R&D funds (millions, billions!?) against a hungry world (developed and even developing) with 100x the resources of that one entity, scientifically and monetarily. The working design will be impossible to lock down to Andrea and his partner, Rossi knows this but is daft to think he can outproduce the rest of the manufacturing world, all the world vs. his ‘robo-shop’.

    End Game happens when his doors open. The first that sell will be reverse-engineered, and then high-output CF will finally receive the development and engineering effort (by the rest of the world) we all badly needed to have happen yesterday, while Rossi was busy primping and prepping.

    • GreenWin

      cat… don’t forget to heap derision on the failed academics and government flunkies who have been too afraid to follow the evidence of LENR. They did not bother to primp or prep; instead they hid their crania in their anteriorpores, hoping not to be called on by progress.

      • catbauer24

        Actually, not necessarily; they get nearly a free-pass due to showings like Rossi. BLP years ago released chemical makeup of a Ni formula for a university to test and reproduce (which Rowan did). There are academics open to this, enough even, but they need information to reproduce to convince themselves, and in-turn, the world. They can’t do that with someone else’s secret… and the longer the secret, the more it seems like a scam. And the less interested they become in pursuing this endeavor. Initially Rossi’s CLAIMS were a great step forward. Now it feels two steps back for the momentum and advancement of CF research, after all, it is all still claims, bolstered gingerly by Levi Et al.’s ‘indication’ it works. Zero third-party replications and no definitive proof, testers can attest to this.

        It is against Rossi’s interest for others to advance their research… others being the rest of the world in this case.

  • daniel maris

    This is all a bit silly until we have some final and definitive proof of LENR.

    • Job001

      No absolute proof of anything exists. LENR has been demonstrated in thousands of labs as a real phenomena for all who are industrious enough to go read the reports, please do so.

      Demonstration at the hands on product level requires engineering, safety, research, control, regulatory, and financial hurdles yet to be met. This process definitely IS NOT silly.

      • AlainCo

        +1

        problem is not proof, it is acceptation of proof.
        it seems hopeless.

        I bet that it will take many month for mainstream to accept LENr even after it is sold and used by businesses.

        it tooks a years after Wright plane were solt to French, for SciAm to admit it.
        5 years from first public demo

        • GreenWin

          It took some 400 years for the Church to admit it’s error in treatment of Galileo. It may take MIT longer.

        • KD

          >> AlainCo on August 31, 2013 at 9:22 am
          >> problem is not proof, it is acceptation of proof.
          >> it seems hopeless.

          >> I bet that it will take many month for mainstream >> to accept LENr even after it is sold and used by
          >> businesses.

          You right.
          I new guy who had store with electronic equipment and repairing and cleaning video recorders/players.
          His price for cleaning was $29.99. But his competitor on the same street, he could see through the window was charging $49.99 for the same service.
          And the clients were going there not to his store.

          So, to promote his services he bought big sign with offering of price for for some period of time for cleaning at $9.99.

          He said, he was losing nothing because it take his experienced employee 10 minutes to do the cleaning and greasing.
          So employee still was making profit for him instead sitting without of work.
          Came first customer with his machine for cleaning but requested to do the job for the higher price of $29.99.

          And there was no way to explain this guy that it is the same quality of work as the higher price.

      • daniel maris

        Well, I mean proof of a standard such as allows us to make the statement “There are steam engines and they can generate electricity.” I want to know “There are LENR devices and they can generate electricity.”

      • Hope4dbest

        Job, out of those thousands of reports that you have read, could you post a link to the one with the most favorable results?

        I want to be able to use with people who deny LENR.

    • fortyniner

      Lighten up, Daniel – its just a bit of fun :). If the evidence now available is not enough, then probably only seeing commercial devices in operation will do it for you and many others – which has been Rossi’s contention all along.

      • daniel maris

        Yes, I have always agreed with Rossi on that. I’m normally very light and bright, just conscious we appear to have entered a rather dull and shaded valley on our LENR journey to who knows where…I;m bored and parlour games won’t help! LOL

        • fortyniner

          Aw, go on, be a sport! We have s*d all else to chew on just now.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    John Dash was not able to get a patent. He tells his story here.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWpW6t3NzMg

  • Antonio Ruggeri Dr Ing

    Since the times when the E-cat was presented, it was clear that had been found a new source of Energy (as substance), capable to expand in form of dissipation out of a mass without causing a lot of obnoxious secondary phenomena, as unfortunately is the case of the nuclear reactors and of the fossil fuels, and the fact that the said source definitely is more economical than the alternative ones using Wind and Solar Power.
    Heat in a mass as compressed Energy and pure expansion out of it as dissipation, permits the phenomenon of Energy transmission when dissipation hits another mass increasing its temperature (according to well known Laws).
    The very first use of dissipation for practical applications depended from the use of fire made from our early ancestors, marking the basic line at which civilization started.
    We must consider that our civilization, which was based over a basic consumption of wood as renewable basic element, since those early times, thanks to the many possible uses of fire, as source of Heat, experienced a continuous slow process of advancement.
    The explosion that our civilization is experiencing started in strength when we managed to use machines powered by more powerful (and practical to use) combustibles (such as liquid and solid fuels of fossil origin) and is still going strong.
    So strong that we expect to exhaust in few decades from now all the sources of fossil fuels that we can economically exploit and the future of the nuclear industry is uncertain since in one side offers plenty radioactive pollution, whilst in the other side the promises of the processes involving what has been named “fusion” are very vague and uncertain.
    If we consider how thanks to the use, mainly of firewood, the human society developed up to recent times, the picture is mainly that of rural small communities living out of the resources of the Nature surrounding them and getting from it enough to be comfortable.
    We must accept the fact that this bucolic status of existence for many of us is the one to which we are physically better adapted and was until not long ago the one more apt to develop our skills and our desire of knowledge and the one in which our ancestors achieved esteem of their human status.
    In few years the fatal attraction of the lights of the Big Cities has wrought irreversible transformations in the societies I tried to describe above.
    With urbanization, many have been successful, but a lot more than many, have found loss of self respect and esteem.
    This situation is mainly due to uncertainty regarding the life in the immediate future and in old age since the hectic reality of the Megalopolis is unfit to give comfort and compassion to their inhabitants, as indeed it was most of the time the case in the old communities in which mutual compassion through the bonds of blood, friendship, acquaintance, created a far better living environment.
    True, Towns fought against Towns in the past but this never escalated to the level of World Wars and associated large scale atrocities.
    My point is that I see in the E-cat a promise for the Humanity concerning the return to a reconstructed type of environment in which families and communities having conquered an economic source of Energy (impeding the uprooting of Forests just in order to make fire) would use it to achieve self sufficiency within an environment having a rural component, more adapt to presence of man.
    With the E-cat there is no necessity to possess large chunks of land from which obtain enough wood without depleting that resource, therefore if water is made available in reasonable amounts, large areas which today are semi desert would be available for this new kind of colonization.
    This all without denying the comforts of our present information technology communication and transport facilities when the infrastructure in the lands above occupied will have reached full maturity, especially if the Hot-cat will be able to provide self sufficiency in small scale enterprises in terms of electricity generation.
    If more families within a small community can produce their own necessaries (vegetables, meat and even small scale industrial, artistic products etc..), through greenhouses and small industrial enterprises, powered by cheap Energy in the status of Heat (supplied by the Rossi effect present in the E-cat) the next step could be exchange of products in organized fashion.
    When hard times arrive the crises in these communities can be better overcome than what is the case now in the large urban conglomerates, where lives more and more depend from precarious activities and jobs, whilst industries move overnight from a Country to another leaving behind desperate folks.

    • kasom

      nice, can you give a short summary of this essay?

      • Dickyaesta

        You could also read it 😉 Very well written Antonio and to the point, in the longer run when the adaption-period is over this will be the outcome, although many people think of the rural area as boring, we have to do something about that, but with abundant energy that should not be a big problem. I, for one, am hanging to my house in a rural area partly because the air is clean 35 minutes away from Barcelona.I see Everyday, from my house, at the sea in front of me, a brown cloud drifting by from Barcelona and thinking when will be the end of the earth absorbing this kind of polution and that is only from Barcelona, which is a small-size big city.

        So a need for this energy, as the only real alternative, yes, protecting his invention, he has the right to, but please please, get on with it…. I would vote for with trade secrets and disclosure in patents if there were that option.

  • “The Elektrision”

    Is it even possibel to get a patent on a process like Cold fusion? Isn`t that like having a patent on “ordenary fire”.If it can take Place somewere in the unnivers naturaly you can`t have a patent on it.
    (Excuse my English i am from sweden)

    • Sturmvogel

      Agree, the Sun, and probably the UFOs, use cold fusion process as energy source, so patent what ? The technology seems to be an engineering solution very easy to repeat and copy after disclosed to public, reason of so much secrecy for short time.

      • Mattias

        No, the sun uses hot fusion.

      • Eyedoc

        Yes, and unfortunately I’ve noticed that the few “Patents” being given in this field are to ‘government ops’ …ie people from NASA , SPAWAR , etc………..looks to me like the ‘writings on the wall’ folks…..perhaps Rick Allen’s project may be the way to go, unless Mr Rossi can successfully slog thru this BS soon. Good luck to all….

        • GreenWin

          Doc, while you are correct re patents, we must also accept an element of apathy from the US public. In part due to the news blackout. However, I have suggested the Congress, desperate to mitigate the huge stockpiles of nuclear waste, take first hand control of the Navy/JWK patent. It is after all, a product of the taxpayer’s investment.

          All too often today, we are somehow believing that government is some omnipotent, secret enterprise to which the people must serve. Wrong. Government’s entire purpose is to serve the people.

          DOE assigned the Navy patent to NSTech LLC, a partnership of four private contractors. The patent BELONGS to the American people. It should be used to benefit the American people. That would be IMO, for Congress to cancel the DOE contract and take direct control of this patent. DOE has proven for 23 years to be no friend of LENR.

    • http://www.lenr4you.com LENR4you

      The physical reaction can not be patented of course. But the things around it to convert the generated energy into electricity.
      e.g. the embedded LENR NiH Stirling engine

    • John De Herrera

      The equipment (E-Cats), materials, and processes (Rossi Effect) are unique and propriety – NOT found in the universe naturally. So, Andrea Rossi should be able to get a patent or keep his methods secret. And get his rewards from sales of his reactors. jdh

      • Sturmvogel

        Keep secret on this technology will be impossible, reverse engineering of the device will be done the next day it becomes available at market. The reward will come if the equipment be so cheap that competitors will have one option, to make it better and cheaper. This is the essence of capitalism, and the LENR players are doing their job. LENR probably is achieved by many ways, with many substances, not only H-NI + secret catlyser. Scientists around the world are running to get the Saint Graal of energy source. Good luck for all !

        • “The Elektrision”

          Then he can`t be waiting for a patent, now that it seems like his factory is up and starting to run.

        • AlainCo

          Right, rob woudenbert on linked-in lenr groups answered to me that way. i was saying, from expert opinion, that most patent could be circumvented through innovation.

          He remind me that it was possible, but that some patented technology have great advantage compared to circumventing technologies, and that provided the patent is not too expensive, the good patent will win…

          the idea is that a patent have a price. it is not a monopoly but an advantage.

          at worst some countries will, like for medications, dump the patent regulation if it cost too much…

          the secret of economy is that both players have to win, or one of the two will quit the table.

  • Dickyaesta

    @GeorgeHants
    Have you seen this video reading up on your Vi-Aqua discovery
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uENITui5_jU#t=50
    amazing. So much more under the sun…

    • Dickyaesta

      And from thereon… Amazing sounds, patterns and new ideas only looking at some of the patterns in the sand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No9eYdGfkKU haven’t we seen these same patterns in photos of atomic interplay, amazing amazing thanks for the guiding hand George.

      Sorry for the interuption guys of the ‘normal’ dsy to dsy here on ECW, but then again being fridaynight and home alone one can afford a little side trip (no pun intended). but then only listening to these amazing sounds and looking at the different paterns one goes off dreaming

      • Dickyaesta

        It should have been day to day, but came out dsy to dsy sounds right in this mood….
        I am listening now to 528 hz dna frequency http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc4_xaWsQC4 at the background…

      • georgehants

        You may find this discovery interesting, hope you are listening to Pink Floyd on your journey.
        —–
        Membranes contain beautiful patterns — but their function is a mystery
        http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-08/uosd-mcb083013.php

        • glhf
          • georgehants

            Thanks, that then leads to —
            The End of Certainty: Ilya Prigogine

            • glhf

              This whole thread seemed to start OT, but oh well. I don’t understand why complex behavior from relatively simple rules applied iterativly leads Ilya to throw out determinsim. If I model complex behavior with EXACTLY the same starting conditions I will get the same results, even though with ever so slightly different conditions I might get wildly divergent results, both cases are still entirely deterministic however.

              • georgehants

                Afraid although I have read his book I would have to rely on his clear knowledge of the subject for him to believe in that conclusion.
                For my self I would always keep a very open-mind and let the subject progress.
                Unfortunately in many areas of science any hint of non-reductionist Evidence and the whole thing is buried as deeply as possible.
                Cold Fusion is a good example.
                Chaos theory in general of course contains some remarkable discoveries.
                🙂

            • glhf

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p08_KlTKP50 regarding Prigogene and the reversibility of time.

  • Chris I

    A mix of 3 and 5. So, duuuh, which do I click? Which do I click?

    No doubt public research institutions should be working on it. But of course this shouldn’t and can’t bar enterprise from doing R&D and patenting their own improvements where possible, or even just using their results when trade secret makes sense. In the case of Rossi’s curent, initial secret, it makes little sense and none once Tom, Dick and Harry are buying from his associates. But they’ll surely make a quick buck by then.

    One thing to compare it with is the Voltaic pile. Just look at how much progress has been made since the year 1800 and still gets made. And he did not keep it secret for a single day, once he was proudly showing that he was right and Galvani was wrong.

    OK, OK, I guess I need to click “Other”.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Why give away all your IP to China via patents? Keep them as a trade secret until you have a head start in research and control of the manufacturing

    • KD

      Coca Cola keep its secrets for so long and is able satisfy clients all over the world.
      But it not prevent others to develop theirs beverages.

      So, lets live Rossi in peace to develop his reactors and mass production.
      And others to compete with Rossi, by designing new technologies of LENR by using different material.
      Then customer will decide which is better.

      • Chris I

        You can bet your posterior that Rossi’s secret won’t be nearly as difficult for a hacker to reproduce as that pharmacist’s recipe. At the same time, coke’s exact recipe matter’s less, especially nowadays. Marketing is their weapon.

  • clovis

    Hi,
    I voted for privite enterprizes, with trade secrets, things seem to be going along just fine for rossi without a patent. when he gets ready to produce a product, he then will apply for a patent, seems stright forard enought.

  • AstralProjectee

    Frank, you forgot to add my first choice which is a mixture of all of them. Or at least a mixture of some of them.

    This would be valid I think. I mean, isn’t choice best for the world. There is no one size fits all as the best way to do anything.

  • Lu

    I voted for Open Source, meaning that the “technology” is still only known at the most basic fundamental scientific level and is not well understood. There are effects but they are difficult to reproduce. There are theories but they are difficult to test, primarily because the effect cannot be re-produced. Scientifically we are at a very early stage in understanding LENR which is why programs like the MFMP program is very important. Putting everything that is known about LENR into the public scientific domain will accelerate its understanding which in the long run will lead to useful commercial applications. (But this is not a guarantee either. We completely understand hot fusion and have for a while now but still are struggling with technical and engineering issues to produce a functioning device.)

    What about Rossi, some will say. He has a commercial product and has now for over two years. I say Rossi doesn’t have any real technology, only the ability to produce LENR like effects from time to time in a very controlled environment.

    Where are his products? Where is his Home Depot E-Cat? This was a ruse to demonstrate demand and generate investment dollars. Patents, UL certification — BS. If he had the technology he could easily build such a product if only limited demonstration purposes. It’s been over 2 years since he’s had a “product” and we still haven’t seen one in operation or even identify even one of the two customers. It’s clear to me that Rossi has advanced some kind of effect based on the work of prior Italian scientists but is now working for his own aggrandizement and ego to commercialize but is having great difficulties and has retracted much like another similar effort, Defkalion, did a while ago.

    LENR is still in its early stages and it’s too early to talk about patents and commercialization. Rossi has demonstrated this.

    • fortyniner

      Agreed. CF needs tens of thousands of good minds working on the solutions to the problems you mention, rather than the few hundred (at most) that are probably engaged at present. Only open sourcing of the basics will allow this to happen, and also prevent the ‘ring fencing’ of the technology by vested interests.

  • Pachu

    Other: Put a real product in a free market.

  • winebuff

    I think what is needed is patent reform they now are far too expensive and are manipulated by large pharma and blackballing cold fusion on unfounded scientific grounds is just plain ignorance.

    • Roger Bird

      Good grammar would be good also. (:->)

      • fortyniner

        If good grammar was a requirement here, very few of our maunderings would ever see the light of day.

    • clovis

      +1

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Plus the China problem, they cheat.

  • zvibenyosef

    A Government project is the best way to go. This technology requires a lot more investment in pure science to transform it from a scientific curiosity to a practical source of energy. Only with a thorough understanding of the underlying physics will it be possible to make substantive progress.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      If you believe Rossi and I have no reason not to, “Here have named my process the “Rossi Effect” referring to the collective phenomenon whose mechanism has now been completely understood.” It is full speed ahead into product development.

  • Jim

    Scenario A: The private trade secret route would result in less delay in product release than the patent route. Once a product hits the market that can deliver cost-competitive energy, industry and government will drop billions on R&D. This will quickly result in the discovery and probably improvement of the original release design. At that point a patent could 1) slow dissemination, 2) result in endless patent disputes or 3) be effectively ignored by some governments. So net is a patent would both slow things down and be of little value.

    Scenario B: The private patent route would give the initial product company confidence to go ahead with release, removing delays, and provide them with additional income which they could reinvest to increase their starting technology edge, resulting in more patents. The economic advantages of LENR would overcome any issues with license fees.

    Scenario X: Three major sources of innovation: War, Government R&D Funding, and Capital+Greed+Ego. Not dismissing Linux etc, I’m not sure open-source is in the same league, and I’m concerned the government would be compromised by regulation and industry influence. War is least preferred.

    I voted for A, with some second thoughts that maybe I should have voted for B.

  • Paul Bennett

    I voted for private with patent. This obviously has a problem if the patent office refuses the application as appears to be the case for the ecat.
    Under this arangement, the patent holder has an incentive the foster the fastest possible development an research because he needs to sell as many units as possible before the patent expires. The price of the units will be above the optimal price for societal well being, and the quantity sold will be lower, both being at the monopoly optimum rather than the perfect competition equilibrium, but this is not a large price to pay. When the patent expires, competition will correct this.