Rossi on Domestic Units (and Defkalion)

Here’s a comment by Andrea Rossi in response to a question about when the domestic E-Cat units might be available. If you read carefully, though he doesn’t mention them by name, there’s an obvious reference to Defkalion in parts 2 and 3. Rossi reveals again here that he really doesn’t believe that Defkalion has a viable technology — and it seems that his policy of not talking about his competitors has its limits sometimes.

Andrea Rossi
August 18th, 2013 at 7:34 AM
Damiano:
The sales of the domestic E-Cat will start after the following conditions will be satisfied:
1- the safety certification is obtained: the certification process is still in course, and such certification will not be granted until enough statistics will be available from the industrial plants. To certify the safety of appliances that will not be operated by certified operators is all but easy.
2- the IP protection has to be assessed: all the clowns around that are saying they have the technology, will be able to substitute their mock up ( and their unsustainable theories) with our E-Cats, slightly modified, and really compete with us when they will be able to buy for small amounts an E-Cat.
3- to avoid the point 2 we must be able and ready to manufacture million of pieces per month, to have prices enough low to forbid the foes to compete.
The points 2 and 3 can be assessed only after the point 1 is completed, therefore is impossible, now, to give dates. Therefore, all the persons that have made pre-orders must wait patiently. Pre orders are not binding, they just assure a position in the waiting list from when the domestic E-Cats will be for sale.
Said this, I must also repeat that the E-Cat technology is undergoing rigorous testing and validation and the results- positive, negative or inconclusive- will provide further guidance about its potential.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

Those of us who have put in preorders for domestic could be in for an extended wait.

  • modernsteam

    I believe Rossi is secretive for the same reason I and so many others would be if we could not yet get patents on our over-unity work. For that reason alone, the technology must be kept secret to prevent IP theft, especially by companies in a certain low-wage country which would gleefully back-engineer it to flood the U.S. and other high-wage nations with cheap-make E-Cats – or whatever other devices – (what is effectively contraband), and deny the inventor a fair return on his and his investors’ sweat-equity and financial investment.

  • Brad Arnold

    Who on Earth cares about “domestic units??” When the first industrial units are showcased it will result in such a media storm that the world will stop in its orbit. When the cat is out of the bag (so to speak), uncounted resources will go into LENR R&D. Energy “too cheap to meter” according to Forbes.com.

  • David

    Just a query but I would like to know what mr Rossi’s motive is? Is it money? Why is he so secretive about how it works?

    I think the idea of any competition is prehistoric if you have made a breakthrough that could revolutionise energy production then share it with the world. Why can’t Mr Rossi work for the benefit of everyone else rather than clouding the issue with concerns over copy right? Seems to me like he Dosnt have anything. Displaying a test without disclosing the method of said test is about as scientific as magic. How can anyone verify the work or validate the out put if the inputs are unknown?

    Also how annoying would it be if this technology was made readily available because someone else provided it? How much of a prat would Mr Rossi feel? Also why have people pre ordered the e-cat? It Dosnt actually exist yet? That’s like me going to pre-order a hover car. I have no idea when it will be made or if it will be made, what it will look like or what it will be made of.

    I don’t see what right Rossi has to hold the scientific community to ransom over his claims that it works when he cannot provide evidence to prove otherwise. I suggest he parts with his ego and provides the world with a viable solution and seek assistance ironing out the kinks from the rest of the world.

    • Zedshort

      Rossi is a highly flawed character that borders on paranoid. He was highly damaged by his stint in jail. Personally, I would reveal the method to a large selection of scientists or just freely reveal it. It would be best to have it out there and people working on it openly so they can communicate their ideas to as many people as possible. Working in too closed an environment will slow research.

      Not sure what you meant by “Displaying a test without disclosing the method of said test is about as scientific as magic.” The method of the tests performed are simple energy balances. There is nothing new about that. It is just a matter of keeping track of all the energy that enters the system and all that leaves the system and calculation a COP. In addition the mass change that takes place during the experiment provides a measure of the weight energy density.

      The pre-ordering of an E-cat is just a silly aside. No one has paid a dime for one. It is just a measure of the enthusiasm for this development, if there really is anything to this.

    • daniel maris

      Well I guess you have to put those questions to the physicists and engineers from Bologna and Uppsala universities who validated the E Cat…what do you think of that validation? Why do you think you know more than they do? What are your qualifications exactly?

    • Kim

      It is beyond me.

      Rossi could give a gift to humanity, yet he waffles
      with fear.

      You’ve heard of Free Fall, Well we are in Free Stall at this
      time and its getting worse.

      Its very Dark at the top.

      Respect
      Kim

    • Omega Z

      David

      It will require 10’s maybe 100’s of Billions to bring E-cats to market in mass.

      No one invests that kind of money without Guarantees of the possibility getting their money back plus a return on that investment. Making the knowledge available for free eliminates that.

      All that would come from this would be a hand full of people who have the ability to build their own would ever have them. Very Few. They would never build any for anyone else. The Liabilities preclude this. Millions would need to be spent for safety certification & license’s to be able to legally manufacture & sell them.

      But, For Arguments sake, If Rossi did make this knowledge available & Scientists & Universities should follow up the Research, They too, Would file Patents on every little caveat they come across that advanced the technology. They too want Payment & Royalties.

      To Note: This will Never be Free Energy. Building Power Plants with E-cats will be NO Cheaper then Conventional Power Plants. Maybe even more expensive.

      Consider a Natural Gas Fired Power Plant- Not Cheap. (Billions)
      The E-cat will merely be replacing the Gas Burners presently used to produce heat. Likely 1 of the Cheaper Components of that entire Plant.

      For a Coal Fired Plant, It means they won’t have to Purchase, Transport, & Burn 1000’s of Tons of Coal everyday just to keep a single plant running.

      As for Home Units, At present, there is nothing economically available for converting the E-cat heat to Electricity. I do think in time (Many Years) someone will develop a more efficient way to convert this to electricity. But This has nothing to do with the E-cat. It may just happen sooner when they become available.

      AS a Final Note: The Biggest hold up of building New Power Plants today is the shortage of resources necessary. At present there are about 1000 in development, but many have been put on hold & many Cancelled, because- Available Funding (About 4 Trillion needed), Materials/Steel of proper grade, Engineers, & Skilled tradesmen which creates a waiting period of years.

      E-cats to market will suffer the same problems. Which is why I’ve said before, It will take decades to convert society over.

      As for the manpower to build projects, There is more then enough People out of work to fill the Void- The Problem is far to few want these Jobs as many require getting a little dirt on their hands.

      • Allan Shura

        Rossi says his home module is the size of the home laptop
        computer and with the exception of the trade secret catalyst
        part it is likely on the whole less complicated.

        As far as the expensive infrastructure the replacement of
        fossil fuels have environmental cost savings both for the
        health care system and cost associated with global warming.

        From the much narrower perspective of the investor there are savings over coal and even low-cost natural gas as a feedstock. There are even savings over the fission reactors.

    • Mike Cheek

      David and Kim:

      “Why not give this away to humanity?” Well, yes, that would be an enormous gift, if inded this is a paradigm shifting viable technology. And then you get to watch others make fortunes off of your idea. And then, say, your own health fails when you are elderly and you can’t afford even an assisted living facility and you go to live in a very run down nursing home, and meanwhile you watch millionaires living it up off your idea. Remember … people might say thank you (most won’t even do that) and no one is going to share their profits with you even if you were the direct reason for their wealth. So I don’t blame Mr. Rossi on this point. This is what research universities are for: people discover new ideas which are published, and the scientists (at least in the past) are given a steady income and freedom of inquiry. This latter model is admittedly the better, but if I had a great idea which might make me a millionaire, well sorry, but I just might try to see if I could make something of it before giving it away.

      • David

        If I have contributed to improving the quality of life of others I couldn’t give a damn about my own well being and circumstances.

        • Roger Bird

          Well, bless your heart, David. I hope that you will also direct that charitable attitude toward Andrea Rossi and let him do as he pleases with HIS invention.

    • Az

      You should read Atlas Shrugged 😉

  • http://www.lenr-forum.com barty

    the office of the german federal chancellor has responded a request about funding of LENR research in germany.
    It is – as expected – disappointing 🙁 :

    http://direktzu.de/kanzlerin/messages/kalte-fusion-validiert-forschungsaufgabe-fuer-die-bam-47493?order=date&sorting=desc

    They see no clear evidence of the Effect, and therefore they don’t see any reason to fund LENR research.

    • artefact

      The one who wrote the answer knows nothing about lenr except what “everyone” knows.
      It is disappointing but I look forward to the day X.

    • MaxS

      Interestingly, from the answer it is obvious that they have looked at it. Angela Merkel was a real physicist before entering politics.
      They say heat was measured but no disclosure was made on the nature of the effect. This is true, a fair judgment.
      Nobody can expect that Germany will endorse an unknown nuclear reaction in the current political landscape, after just exiting nuclear power.

      • Roger Bird

        It is entirely possible that those dragging their heels may say things “We don’t know how it works” and when someone calls them on that stupidity they can say that if we don’t know how it works there are safety issues.

  • Thinks4Self

    Article at ivn.us

    Cold Fusion Energy Is Not Just Science Fiction Anymore
    http://ivn.us/2013/08/19/low-energy-nuclear-reactions-aim-to-become-next-global-energy-source/

  • frank sedei

    LENR is such a historic breakthrough in energy production, it seems unlikely to me that any meaningful manufacturing for the general public use will be forthcoming in the near future. The military and NASA have been seriously involved with LENR for several years. I seems more likely we will hear news of a LENR powered military ship, plane, rocket, etc. before we witness E-cats in the home.

    • fortyniner

      I agree. Rossi is hedging like crazy on home units and DGT etc will probably go down the same rabbit hole when they reach a similar point.

      We probably won’t hear about the military applications for many years, although it is just possible we may hear about LENR, LANR, ‘electrofusion’ etc. (anything except ‘cold fusion’) being tested in connection with power generation if enough countries abandon fission and a decision is made by the industry to switch tracks (the clues that GreenWin cites indicate this may already have happened, before fission is forcibly closed down by public opinion due to revelations about the dire state and likely consequences of Fukushima).

      As an ‘over sixty’ I honestly don’t expect to live long enough to see domestic CF units unless the hegemony of the current PTB is ended in some way.

      • georgehants

        Robots to Demolish Site of UK’s Worst Nuclear Incident at Sellafield
        http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/499768/20130818/sellafield-nuclear-robots-destroy.htm

        • GreenWin

          Interesting. Fukushima cores are so high in radiation robotic electronics FRY – meaning, there is nothing man or machine can do to directly intercede. Does this tell us something??

          Is there any good reason for governments everywhere not to be well invested in non-radiative LENR??

          • frank sedei

            Disgusting! How much more abuse can this planet take?

            • Thinks4Self

              The planet can take just about anything we can throw at short of losing containment on a several kilograms of antimatter.

              The correct question is “How much more radioactive pollution will it take to make us extinct?”.

            • Roger Bird

              I suspect quite a bit more.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      They keep it under raps until the military has full use of its benefits. Governments have reacted the same way throughout history.

  • Enduser

    If you go to http://www.bluegen.info/ and follow their progress over recent years you see how a legitimate company in a new energy field announces its progress towards market.

    The Rossi and Dedkalion examples couldn’t be more different. There are all the same IP issues with Ceramic Fuel Cells as there are with LENR, such as patenting, type-approval etc. The latter seems to be the subject of a much too “precious” process of development.

    Ceramic Fuel Cells have been writing about their progress openly since the start.

    You don’t need independent testing in secret, you need a competent group of in-house engineers to research, test and build a product.

    Don’t know how it works? How does magnetism work? We just use it.

    • Roger Bird

      BlueGen is impressive. What you said was not impressive. There is nothing radically new about BlueGen. I don’t know why ceramic fuel-cell technology is better than regular fuel-cell technology, but I will take their word for it. 60% efficiency is impressive. But ceramic fuel-cells do not have a 23 year history of being equated with pathological science and of being joke lines for late night comics. And ceramic fuel-cells are not calling upon new physics, physics that will turn the scientific world upside down.

    • Redford

      Also, Rossi stated his issues with patenting lied in the lack of theorical model and difficulty to get approval for a nuclear generator. I find it sound & convincing explanation on why the process is so difficult.

  • Stew

    There was a time, when Mr. Rossi told us, that he is about to set up an automated factory. Buildings are being built and robots are already ordered. Well, never mind, it would be enough to have just one functional E-Cat publically accessible with a non confidential customer. I wonder when this humble wish will come true, maybe in ten years?

    • Redford

      Actually he delivered a few month ago a customer that has agreed to reveal himself and let visitors (guest, thus, not public access) access to it. It’s not a promise – he made clear it was not in his hand, but there’s good hope.

  • georgehants

    Scientist’s I think either do not know or like to forget the Fact that not one single thing is known about the reality that we seem to inhabit except that we are aware of it.
    Everything that science chooses to misrepresent as basic Facts are just higher level extrapolations of measurements or theory’s fitting those measurements.
    We do not have the slightest idea for why those measurements are what they are or how they derive.
    A little more Humility and Honesty would I feel be in order, as the present illusion encouraged by science that they have knowledge of anything beyond very superficial reductionism is always making them look very foolish.

    • Roger Bird

      Have I called scientists philosophical retards here? If not, scientists tend to be philosophical retards. They also ***tend*** to be oblivious of the human and moral dimension of things. And devotees of scientism think that they are the masters of all knowledge and that they should be kowtowed to when it comes to moral and humane issues.

      • Robyn Wyrick

        Dude, that is just offensive and unnecessary. Does everything with you have to be picking a fight?

    • fortyniner

      The inability to even countenance, let alone admit to the idea that science is just a working tool and ‘work in progress’ is probably the greatest failure in many scientists, now and probably back to the year dot. I suppose it takes a certain kind of control freak to get anywhere near the top in any scientific field.

      I have no time for Donald Rumsfeld as a man, but the well known quote from his 2002 speech should be nailed to the wall of every science lab in the world (even though it was just a political dodge, and not actually referring to the boundaries of knowledge in general):

      There are known knowns; there are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say, there are things that we now know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don’t know.

      Donald Rumsfeld

      • Roger Bird

        I like Donald Rumsfeld, so I am glad that you posted his comment about knowns and unknowns. I like the fact that he was on the lawn of the Pentagon on September 11, 2001 helping people who were injured. My kind of guy.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          You like Donald Rumsfeld, that is like saying you just love the 2 trillion dollars the US has or will spend for the Iraq escapade and the 5000 US fighting men killed and the 100’s of thousands of Iraqis killed. Donald Rumsfeld was a disaster for the US and Iraq!

        • fortyniner

          That was almost certainly play acting. Rumsfeld is an all-American political hustler and the worst kind of cynical manipulator. He is the force behind aspartame, the poison sweetener which is damaging the brains, livers, and peripheral nerves of millions.

          You may need to pick ‘your kind of man’ a little more carefully I think.

          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robbie-gennet/donald-rumsfeld-and-the-s_b_805581.html

          http://rense.com/general67/rum.htm

      • Zedshort

        I could never understand why people could not understand what he said. Maybe that’s because there is a lot of unknown unknowns in people.

    • MaxS

      in the judgement of scientist´s competence, do you actually include the Swedish and Italian professors ? Perhaps so, and that could explain the results.
      IMO constant bashing on scientists is not helpful at all.

  • artefact

    On JONP:

    Frank Acland
    August 18th, 2013 at 7:43 PM
    Dear Andrea,

    I understand why you must be putting the e-cat through a vigorous testing regimen — certainly necessary in any product development process — but could you explain the purpose of further validation at this point?

    If your products work satisfactorily why is further validation necessary? Who is the audience for the validations?

    Many thanks!

    Frank Acland

    ######

    Andrea Rossi
    August 18th, 2013 at 9:43 PM
    Frank Acland:
    We are following the validation program that had been already foreseen after the 120 hour test of the Third Indipendent Party. When our US Partner will consider mature the time, specific informaton will be given, also about the “audience” of the R&D and validation work in course.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • http://www.lenr-forum.com barty

      Okay, so is this the confirmation that the Elforsk 6 month’s test is currently in course?

      • fortyniner

        Possibly. But if so, Rossi is not making any promises about publication this time around. If anything he is confirming that we will not hear anything further of any substance until his corporate partner is good and ready.

  • Lukedc

    Andrea Rossi has good reason to be concerned.
    He has chosen a partner that can’t meet industrialisation targets as rapidly as the Defkalions R&D partners.
    If what i was told is still accurate, by the end of the year there will be public announcements of product(s) from several very well known companies.

    • pg

      Could you elaborate on the public announcements part?

      Thank you

      • Lukedc

        In the share prospectus there will be an announcement that will detail R&D partners and potential product applications. There is a little more that i could add, but it would involve divulging information that impacts my employment directly. Unfortunately this is not the forum for that. You will just have to take my word for it.

        • Roger Bird

          So, a handle like “lukedc” might mean someone whose first name is Luke who lives in Washington, D.C. I invite any other ideas.

          • Joseph J
          • hempenearth

            Someone whose first name is Luke who works on DC powered products?

          • Lukedc

            No that isn’t me. I have a colleague who I collaborated with in Canada on a potential application for the Hyperion reactor. It was going to be integrated into a data centre cooling unit for thermally isolated high density blades. He has subsequently gone with a more traditional heat exchange unit as at that time there was no industrially ready unit to buy. All I was told was months ago and I posted it then.
            I have had no direct contact with Defkalion. But all I was told and everything that they have said publicly seems to put them on track.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Watch out, this sounds like a scam in the works!

          • Lukedc

            If you are referring to what I am saying, I have no problem if you believe it or not. I read this forum just like you and have shaped my own opinion on the validity of this tech through personal analysis and investigation. If all is as it appears to be, at some point shortly there will be a product announcement.
            Truly just my two cents…

            • Roger Bird

              Lukedc, doubting you never crossed my mind.

        • Cassandra

          Its the share issue in penny stocks that worries me. The canadian TSX Tier 2 tech market, is a market with a very low entry threshold.

          For them to even contemplate that suggests that no one has bought a manufacturing license ( 40.5 million euro’s) That would also indicate that they are getting short of cash. Which means no country licenses have actually been sold. For what other reason but cash-flow trouble would anyone give away equity in their very own gold mine?

          Its unfortunate that Defkalion Milan spoke on italian radio where they implied the tech was on hold…Not a wise statement if you are going to sell shares in September.

          And Rossi has a right to be doubtful about Defkalion, that works both ways. The trouble is that until this muddy water has cleared no one can invest. Its impossible to tell who’s ip is who’s from a bystanders point of view at present

          • AlainCo

            You probably refer to that Tier2
            http://www.tmx.com/en/pdf/TSXandTSXVenture_IndustrialRequirements.pdf

            “$750,000 net tangible assets or $500,000 in revenue or $2,000,000 Arm’s Length Financing
            If no revenue, two year management plan demonstrating reasonable likelihood of revenue within 24 months

            Adequate working capital and financial resources to carry out stated work program or execute business plan for 12 mo. following listing; $100,000 unallocated funds

            Funds to cover all planned R&D/Developement expenditures, capital expenditures and G&A expenses for 2 years

            Min. $10/$12 million in the treasury,with majority raised by prospectus offering

            Either:
            Evidence that products or services at an advanced stage of development or commercialization and that management has the expertise and resources to develop the
            business
            Or:
            Minimum 2 year operating history that includes R&D activities.
            Evidence of technical expertise and resources to advance its research and development programs

            If compliant it looks quite serious. Isn’t it?

            note that as explained in their documentation, beside some capital, getting public allows more liquidity in shares, allowing shareholders to quit easily, and it also allows stock-options to workers and similar incentives.

            Maybe simply some shareholders want to take the cash and enjoy retirements.
            maybe the boss want to motivate his top guns by stock options.

            Lack of cash is only one option.
            And the reason of lack of cash is either that cash is burned and license are not yet paid, or that they have an ambitious plan (like big factories in Greece, huge LENR-lab, and a plan to invade Germany ;-> with LENR-tanks )

            We will have more information when Defkalion fill it’s prospectus.

            all what I read make me feel that if they really try to get public, we will learn much, and as intended, we will know how far they are serious.

            too bad we have to wait 2 month (and probably more, since all get late in LENR).

            If they have patent pending we will know also.

          • Pedro

            As far as I remember, the money paid by licensees would go into escrow. Maybe they only get access to that money when the licenseesget access to a selable product?

            • Franco

              Only the first deposit ( 500,000 euros 0f the 40 million) was an escrow one. that was held in ecsrow to prove that the interested party had funds. Once deposited the interested party could view the ip

              20 million was paid on reciept of the ip , with the other 20 million balance paid 2weeks after a product has left the factory. That was the original plan anyway

          • Jim

            +1 on the view of the canadian TSX Tier 2 tech market

  • Joe Shea

    UL could take years. They may have been bribed to do so.

    • Boris Ivanoff

      UL bribed? How would one bribe them? How much would it take? Consider that UL relies on reputation to function. If the bribe were ever revealed, UL would be out of business for good. Nobody would ever trust their test results or endorsements again.

  • simon

    How dumb am I, never really thought about the other players (Defkallion etc) being the agent most likely to steal off Rossi. If that is his worry it is a sad state of affairs – but then he did have a relationship with them at one stage.

    • Roger Bird

      I have also thought that perhaps Defkalion is simply waiting for Rossi’s E-Cat to arrive and they grab one and reverse engineer it and put it into their well engineered box. But that theory bumps up against Defkalion’s demo and Kim’s confirmation. So it doesn’t seem likely to me.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Defkalion’s system uses a spark plug. I remember reading some early reports hinting to only 2 days lifetime for them. Maybe they have a reaction, but the design choises are such that the machine is not durable. This is of course speculation, we don’t yet have a 3rd party verification that their process is non-chemical.

        • Allan Shura

          There are supposed to be some new super variety of
          spark plug available but the more ordinary should
          last a while for the normal range in design. The
          ones used use might be out of design conditions
          range if true that they last only 2 days.

  • Miles

    I’m on the waiting List. I’m not spending $2000 on Solar Panels. Rather wait for something that work during the night too.

    “we must be able and ready to manufacture million of pieces per month” IF eCat delivers as told – i’d just disconnect my electricity…Wouldn’t electricity companies go out of business :)???

    • Miles

      It’s been called the death spiral, by AGL staff Paul Simshauser and Tim Nelson. And what it means is that as customers install solar and undertake energy efficiency measures the utilities respond by raising rates to continue to retrieve a similar level of profit to what they’ve received in the past.

      Read more: http://www.businessspectator.com.au/article/2013/8/18/smart-energy/utilities-creating-their-own-battery-powered-demise#ixzz2cMy3I6LF

    • Pekka Janhunen

      One has to remember that while a home E-cat which consumes electricity and produces heat is likely a simple and cheap device (basically has been existing for some years and only waiting for certification), an electricity producing device suitable for home use is much more challenging to develop because of the high temperature, pressure differentials and moving parts involved. Building such a device is certainly possible in the required power scale (given that the E-cat side works), but the question is if it can also be arranged to be economical to mass-produce and to maintain and operate at home.

      Last month Rossi was seeking for partners who could make Stirling generators for such applications and apparently didn’t find any. That might indicate that the E-cat side for home electricity generation is perhaps in a reasonably satisfactory state, but the heat to electricity conversion part is not. On the other hand, it also indicates that Rossi hasn’t lost hope regarding such application and is actively pursuing it.

      • MK

        Well, there are stirling solutions fo Co-generation…..
        This is unfortunately only available in German.
        http://www.viessmann.de/de/ein-_zweifamilienhaus/produkte/mikro-kwk.html
        The efficiency seems not to be good, but at least there is a commercial product.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Thanks, I put it to JONP because the claimed efficiency electric/thermal seemed to anyway be about 1/6 and because it seems to be made for the household market.

          • Adam Lepczak

            veissmann is a good, well established company on the Euro market. This is a good sign!

          • http://www.e-catworld.com admin

            Rossi replies to Pekka:

            “Andrea Rossi
            August 19th, 2013 at 7:43 AM
            Pekka Janhunen:
            We know very well the Viessmann system. We tested it.
            It is not fit for the E-Cat. Thank you anyway for your kind information.
            Warm Regards,
            A.R.”

      • Boris Ivanoff

        Are you saying that electric generation is necessary before the ecat can be sold to individual home owners? I would think that heat production alone would be wonderful. Consider only the application of heating living and working spaces in the winter. How much energy and money could we save using the ecat for that alone?

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Not, I just replied to Miles who talked about electricity. From a high-latitude customer’s point of view, the E-cat should be similar to a heat pump (needs electricity to run, produces more heat as output), but simpler and with higher and temperature-independent COP.

      • Allan Shura

        Where there is a will there is a way. More than one company has designed a engine. Most likely there is a suitable
        adaptation.

        However this looks like pursuing all things. All the world needs is various sizes and scales of heat cells.

        In a normal industrial boiler a large contractor will provide the boiler. The boiler then need another usually very large
        company to provide a turbine and or generator. One company does not do all things or even attempt to because each component is specialized. This can be scaled down to a
        small size in a factory assembled unit.

  • Anthony

    As I understand it, the 1mW generators are simply 100 x 10kW units in parallel, so it would seem logical that if the larger one gets type approval then it should facilitate same for the small ones.

    • Warthog

      Not at all. The larger plants are intended for industrial installation with operation by trained personnel available for troubleshooting and oversight……a TOTALLY different situation from a home installation which must run on “full automatic control” 24/7 for six months. The level of “allowable upset conditions” are hugely different.

      BUT, the industrial units CAN be used to gather statistics on successful “mean-time-between-upsets” operation, and so can feed information into the licensing-for-home-use tests.

  • LCD

    After the Levi et al tests I really thought we’d have more public progress but it’s been quite the opposite.

    Rossi is taking way to long to build products if he has the control he claims.

    One has to assume now that he simply does not have a commercial ready product.

    • Redford

      I fail to see any logical reason to expect having “more public progress” (whatever that would be) after Levi et al tests. I also fail to see what allows you to say it should be faster. It certainly doesn’t fit with the usual cycle from a R&D key landmark up to a shiping product you see elsewhere.

      • elasticbucket

        and passing rigorous international safety standard ratings, just for the impatient, you know. Done, so the less impatient, and those prepared not to accept the premise unattended devices manufactured by Rossi are potentially dangerous and without due diligence, are compatible only with Murphy’s Law.

        • Boris Ivanoff

          I wonder about that. Rossi has said time and again that the ecat is intrinsically safe. It can not explode. If it overheats, the nickel melts, the reaction stops and there is no fire.

          Given the above information, and the fact that the industrial ecat is already safety certified, it is hard to understand why getting the same certification for the home ecat is so very time consuming.

          Considering how important and valuable a product it is, you’d think it would get a fast track for testing and approval.

          • Redford

            Because the certification process is way easier for a product delivered in small amount under specialist supervision than for a mass market buyable by every idiot with enough money. Let us not forger than basically Rossi came to certification and said: “I have a brand new nuclear device than even I can only suppose the inner working. I am pretty sure it’s not dangerous! Can I put one in every home in Europe ?”. Answer was “no” and honestly, it’s better this way 😛

  • Georgy

    Hurry-up and wait. DGT Toronto, October.

  • Allan Shura

    Underwriters Laboratories (UL) had been at this testing for a while
    that a year and a half ago Rossi said was going very well. There seems
    to be no baseline for progress even in general terms. If the home
    e-cat does not work there is nothing to test. If it does work then there must be a plan of some sort for the testing not finished or a result is not reached. Either way it is only theoretical to benefit the
    public with a low cost independent home energy source device until one entity steps forward with a product.

  • Boris Ivanoff

    At this point in time, it’s difficult to understand why Rossi holds out the possibility of “negative or inconclusive” test results! Hasn’t he done enough tests already? How can you sell megawatt plants and be building million unit robotic factories if you are still uncertain enough that the technology works that new tests could yield negative results?

    Maybe Frank could ask Mr. Rossi about that. Maybe he is speaking only about specific planned future products. But then he should say so! Or does this apply to the megawatt plant? To the home ecat? Wow.

    • Jim

      “positive, negative or inconclusive” may be deliberate legalistic hedging against prior commitments, implied, inferred or explicit.

    • Roger Bird

      Boris, I read the same material that you did, and I thought that he was talking about safety tests. That is an entirely different ballgame as compared to excess heat tests.

      • Jim

        Good catch.

  • Jim
  • Fjodor

    I wonder if some interesting news will ever come out of Russia.
    I heard nothing so far except for rumors based on rumors based on rumors based on rumors.

    I guess we just have to wait and see if they have something they believe can compete.
    I would say the chances for that happening within 2 months are quite low, between slim to none but then again… you never know…

    Exciting, isnt it! 🙂

    In the meantime thanks for qualitative reporting on the progress of the energy catalyzer.

  • georgehants

    German energy giants pull plug on conventional power
    German power company RWE is shutting six domestic plants and rival E.ON is threatening to relocate to Turkey as the sector tots up the cost of the government’s energy policy turnaround.
    Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-08-german-energy-giants-conventional-power.html#jCp

    • GreenWin

      And GE just scrapped the world’s largest solar panel factory in Colorado. Looks like everyone’s expecting a miracle. Or LENR to appear from behind the curtain.

      • Stanny Demesmaker

        Defkalion claims that it is working with the largest (energy) companies in the world. They don’t have a chance then to cooperate with them. But these companies are only large because they have a monopoly on the energy reserves. When LENR appears, their business model will crumble.

        Btw the mention of cold fusion in that bbc interview, is an example of the build up that is currently taken place in the “higher” circles

        • Anthony

          Btw the mention of cold fusion in that bbc interview, is an example of the build up that is currently taken place in the “higher” circles

          What was that, Stanley ? I missed it.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Right, I agree, Germans do not make this move without some solid evidence of something more than solar and wind.

      • bobby

        part of the solar problem is that the Chinese are heavily subsidizing them meaning that they are very difficult to compete against. That almost led to a trade embargo en Europe until some agreement was reached.

        add to the above the fact that Solar energy has now reached parity with conventional power and the big boys have a problem with de-centralised power killing their business plans..You can see how bad this is , where in Spain the local government is passing a law whereby you pay tax on self generated solar energy.

  • georgehants

    From Cold Fusion Now.
    Greg Goble
    When spontaneous transmutation of particles occurs in a quantum liquid.
    http://www.lpt.ups-tlse.fr/spip.php?article947&lang=fr
    —–
    May interest eernie1

    • Roger Bird

      I hope that eernie1 can translate it into regularpersonese.

    • Chris I

      This is talking about statistical transmutation and it is a very distinct thing from nuclear transmutation.

    • Stephen

      Interesting article.

      However this is a *statistical* transmutation. The paper seems to focus a physical system supporting two dual modelling schemes in which excitations display two different statistics, in one case the standard Fermi-Dirac, in the other one Bose… but there is no need of nuclear stuff here, this is just manybody physics. For instance – going to a more standard case – excitation in 1D electron systems (for instance imagine a polymer) are also expected to describable in terms weakly interacting (“weakly” in the common sense, nothing to do with “weak force” here) charge and spin waves, which are both bosonic… even if the electrons giving rise to these waves are fermions as usual.

      Check out:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luttinger_liquid
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosonization

      Note this does not imply anything special going on between the electrons beyond standard e-e repulsion. Just collective effects. Interesting, subtle, but all this has no obvious implication on LENR.

      • eernie1

        Stephan,
        Use your imagination. Their involving a fermionic dopant implies to me some nuclear involvement. Are the authors trying to explain how the electronic clusters can assume coherencies in superconductive situations? Much easier to achieve as in the case of Bose particles(photons in a laser beam)or fermion particles(Constrained by Pauli exclusion)acting like Bose particles. If you inhibit the effects of the Quantum spin quality of electrons can they then act like Bosons? The coherent electron clusters(containing high density charges) traveling through a constrained covalent dimer system may produce some interesting results.

  • Andrew Ma

    Hopefully domestic LENR won’t take a long as domestic solar power — 138 years from discovery until the Jimmy Carter installed solar panels on the White House in 1977. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_solar_cells
    http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/33-years-ago-today-jimmy-carter-put-solar-panels-on-the-white-house

    Rossi should reserve domestic E-CAT serial number 00000000001 for Quirinal Palace or the White House.

    • theBuckWheat

      Solar power will fade to niche applications like home sidewalk lighting or powering mountaintop weather stations as LENR becomes commercially viable.

  • Andrew Ma

    I suppose Rossi’s game plan is based on actual knowledge of the game plan of the foes or from experience working with them. Either way, the plan sounds reasonable to me. My order for two domestic units should be at the top of the list if he is going to make millions per month.

    • Kim

      Game plan?

      Both Defkalion and Rossie are locked behind strong
      doors with food and water.

      and the gangsters are looking for a tall latter to place
      something up on a high shelve.

      Respect
      Kim

      • Kim

        We are in Free Stall.