BBC on Fusion

We’re talking about ‘hot’ fusion here. The BBC has published a report on the current state of the Iter project in Provence, France where there is ongoing construction of a Tokamak reactor. The article discusses the delays that have held up progress on the project, but says that some of the problems have been resolved with better coordination between the participating countries.

Here’s a brief explanation of what they are trying to do from the BBC


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There are however still problems projecting a completion date. Parts for the reactor need to be built to very exact specifications, and shipped to France from all over the world in a strict sequence. Once on site, all these parts have to be assembled to very tight specifications:

The 28 magnets that will create the field containing the plasma have to be machined to a very demanding level of accuracy. And each part must be structurally sound and then welded together to ensure a totally tight vacuum – without which the plasma cannot be maintained. A single fault or weakness could jeopardise the entire project.

Assuming Iter does succeed in proving that fusion can produce more power than it consumes, the next step will be for the international partners to follow up with a technology demonstration project – a test-bed for the components and systems needed for a commercial reactor.

It’s a major undertaking, and there still seems to be much uncertainty in terms of project completion, and whether the reactor will work as planned. So why are governments willing to expend so much effort and spend so much money on the project? There is the hope that we could one day replicate something like the energy of the sun at a high COP (this article mentions production of 500 MW at a COP of 10 ) from a cheap fuel, with no greenhouse emissions and ‘relatively little’ radioactive waste.

For a long time, without any alternative way to reach these goals, such a project may have made sense, but it seems to me the plan is now quite outdated since it appears that now E-Cat has demonstrated that it can meet these objectives in a much cheaper and easier way.

  • Joannes Van den Bogaert

    Why not try the “hot fusion” process described in Belgian patent BE904719 (lapsed) removing electrons from the deuterium plasma by positively charged slitlike electrodes insulated from each other and compressing the deuterons(+) in the plasma-whirlstream by repulsion from said electrodes and Lorentz force exerted on the whirling deuterons. See drawings (without said electrodes) in the patent.

  • GreenWin

    What the public is generally unaware of is that hot fusion produces an enormous amount of very dangerous radiation. The failure of tokomaks like ITER is the inability to prevent plasma from destroying the container walls. Those walls become highly radioactive, and there is no practical way to remediate that material except to bury it.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=hanford-nuclear-cleanup-problems

    Simply put, hot fusion produces LESS radioactive waste than fission – but there IS radioactive waste and it is dangerous to life on Earth. Take for example Scientific American’s recent look at the US Hanford nuclear site – the most radiation polluted site in the world.

    “The [Department of Energy’s]… current attempt at a permanent solution for safely storing that waste for centuries—the Waste Treatment and Immobilization Plant here—has hit a major snag in the form of potential chain reactions, hydrogen explosions and leaks from metal corrosion.”

    Can we really afford to pretend LENR is not a better solution than fission or hot fusion?? Mr. Secretary Moniz, your duty as a public servant is to pursue any and ALL viable avenues to clean, abundant energy for the United States. GO to University of Missouri and meet with Dr. Robert Duncan to discuss immediate funding for LENR research.

    • MStone

      This is fear mongering.

      Yes the walls of the tokomak are bombarded by neutrons. Yes they become radioactive.

      What isn’t being said is that the walls aren’t very radioactive compared to fission waste. Like comparing a hot plate to a blast furnace.

      Also, the walls remain radio active for only about 10-100 years. They need to cool off. Not like fission waste of 10,000-100,000 years.

      You could very easily store those walls in a place like Yucca then re-use them after they have cooled off.

      • GreenWin

        Regardless Mstone, ITER is not a radioactive-free process (even if it can achieve unity.) By international agreement the USA is a partner in ITER – but we already know it is highly unlikely for this “experiment” to be of use to humanity.

        So why not redirect American tax dollars to areas we have indication may obviate radioactive waste entirely?? Why not?? Is it only because Ernie Moniz’s Department of Energy wants to protect the outdated nuke power industry?? Well, yeah, that’s just about the crux of it. Ernie is a lapdog to the big fission reactor companies.

        Can Ernie avoid the shietstorm coming from Fukushima, waste mitigation, failed power plants, corrupt fusion investment?? Sure. Ernie commits to financing LENR via Rob Duncan and a consortium of LENR researchers nationwide. One (1%) of the DOE budget should set DOE back on the righteous path. Ernie can then take credit for bringing American developed technology (i.e. SPAWAR) to the benefit of the citizens.

        Ask Hill and Knowlton what discovering a clean, green, non-radiative source of energy is worth to Ernie and his politicians. There is no number. The benevolent do not work for money. They work for enlightenment. Ernie is 70 years old and has not much time left.

        Ernie, a legacy as just another dweeb running a dysfunctional agency? Or a stand up pioneer who took a political risk and changed the world for the better?? Who are you Ernest?

  • Thomas

    “So why are governments willing to expend so much effort and spend so much money on the project?”

    They don’t! Compare the money they are willing to spend with other things …

  • robiD

    More about Defkalion Europe and the tests.
    This is a news release by Franco Cappiello DE managing director:
    http://www.nextme.it/scienza/energia/6150-fusione-fredda-defkalion-cappiello
    please use Google translate.

    • http://www.lenr-forum.com barty

      Okay, so concluded:

      Defkalion Europe confirms the discrepancies and has therefor suspended all its business activities now, and will conduct a new/last measurement test in the first week of september.
      This test will decide if Defkalion Europe and Defkalion GT (Canada) will further work in a collaboration or go separate ways.

  • orsobubu

    After Fukushima and its worldwide spreaded radionuclides on earth, water and air, seeping continuously during at least 25 years from now, with a life span of hundreds of thousands – even millions – of years, we must say NO to any form of contaminating technology. All life on the planet will be affected and DNA mutated, with children in the US west coast among the first to pay the price.

  • elasticbucket

    Here’s a bucket stretch, LENR (Fissionable Trigger)- Plasma – Fusion (as primary energy source) Appears to be an unquantifiable amount of energy released by LENR, but is it hot enough?

  • Curbina

    Dr. Jean Pierre Petit has been in a lonely campaign to point out the follyness of the ITER project. He recently engaged in an open polemic as the people that runs ITER published an open letter against his character.

    Dr. Petit is an advocate of the Inertial Confined Fusion approach to hot fusion, which costs a fraction of the ITER or Tokamak, and have already reached temperatures well above 2 billion degrees Kelvin. He has been trying to rise public awareness on this, to no avail. I have seen one or two comments from Dr. Petit about Rossi, BTW, not supportive but also not dismissive (he is awaiting to be surprised, but not holding his breath). He recently published an assay criticizing Paul Biberian for his unprofessional and biased attitude towards supporting cold fusion. Its a very interesting read.

    Anyway, regarding Hot Fusion, and the impressive results obtained in Sandia Lab’s Z machine in 2006, he stated:

    Pour moi, comme pour les spécialistes, Français ou étrangers avec qui j’ai eu des contacts, il est évident que la fusion est au bout du chemin. Il suffit de placer par exemple une aiguille d’hydrure de lithium au centre de la “cage à serin”, ou une fine baguette de deutérium-tritium solidifié ( qu’on sait fabrique de longue date ) pour déboucher sur des expériences lourdes de conséquences, sur une émission de noyaux d’hélium, faciles à identifier.

    Pour l’humanité c’est la source d’énergie, illimité, non polluante, non-radioactive, la machine qui peut changer toute l’organisation et la politique de notre planète, en peu d’années ( …)

    Pour les militaires c’est la bombe H et la bombe à neutrons à la portée des pays les plus modestes, la dissémination incontrôlable de l’arme thermonucléaire (…). Une machine comme celle de Sandia coûte à peu près le centième de celui d’un tokamak comme ITER.

  • georgehants

    ScienceBlog
    If someone told you there was a way you could save 2.5 million to 3 million lives a year and simultaneously halt global warming, reduce air and water pollution and develop secure, reliable energy sources – nearly all with existing technology and at costs comparable with what we spend on energy today – why wouldn’t you do it? According to a new study coauthored by Stanford researcher Mark Z. Jacobson, we could accomplish all that by converting the world to clean, renewable energy sources and forgoing fossil fuels.
    Read more at http://scienceblog.com/65427/the-world-can-be-powered-by-alternative-energy-in-20-40-years-stanford-researcher-says/#mtdtLRYk3Wq0oVaH.99

    • MaxS

      the article also says

      The researchers approached the conversion with the goal that by 2030, all new energy generation would come from wind, water and solar

      Obviouly, nuclear fusion, cold or hot, is not on their agenda.

      • georgehants

        So what a Wonderful advantage Cold Fusion could be to the above analysis if main-line science ever attempts to help the few brave Cold Fusion pioneers.
        Every scientist must feel very proud of their profession.

        • Karl

          George I think it might be an illusion by us cf lenr entusiasts that msm including mss ever in a foreseable future will acknoledge this opportunity. They are obviously closely tied to another agenda.

  • georgehants

    New Statesman
    We still don’t really know how bicycles work
    The publication plunged bicycle dynamics back into chaos. It turns out that taking into account the angles of the headset and the forks, the distribution of weight and the handlebar turn, the gyroscopic effects are not enough to keep a bike upright after all. What does? We simply don’t know. Forget mysterious dark matter and the inexplicable accelerating expansion of the universe; the bicycle represents a far more embarrassing hole in the accomplishments of physics.
    http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/07/mysteries-bicycle

    • Roger Bird

      Physicists would be blind to the human element, naturally. After “the angles of the headset and the forks, the distribution of weight and the handlebar turn, the gyroscopic effects, etc”, the human being applies a little negative feedback, and there you go, a bicycle with rider on their merry way.

  • Ken

    The Tokamak is a huge money trap. I’m not too positive on whether or not it will be beneficial. While there may be “relatively little radioactive waste” It will still have waste and the safety concerns of a chain reaction or meltdown.

    On another note. Anyone seen the latest work on solar thermal boilers? Nano-particles that when in water turn it directly to steam if placed in sunlight? (http://revolution-green.com/2013/08/08/full-steam-ahead-with-nanoscale-heating/)

    Ken

    • MStone

      Fear mongering.

      No possibility of a chain reaction or meltdown.

  • Ramey

    Not only do I feel …and think…that by participating in the conversation here at ecw,,,that I am among some critical scientific thinkers,but also in the midst of some visionaries as well. Sooo.. since we are the”less than one percent”. Could we establish a side forum with the goal of turning our exclusive knowledge into…..uuhhmm .money. for charity….absolutely.. lets share our thoughts just as we ask AR to share his..The one percent refers to the limited number of people that are paying attention to cold fusion…nothing else.

    • Roger Bird

      Since I am one of the struggling poor, I’ll just cut out the middle man and keep my cut for me and my family. (:->)

  • Alan DeAngelis

    The mainstream media sees us as geese that must be force fed. They’ll never tell us about LENR. They’ll just keep forcing this sort of thing down our throats.

  • Carl Nelson
    • Roger Bird

      Outstandingly sane, sensible, and reasonable article.

  • Ramey

    For those wondering why hot fusion gets funding while cold fusion gets left out in the cold …its actually simple mathematics. Cold fusion equals more independence for the masses. Hot fusion cannot have a home version. Just look at the solar initiatives in California. As long as you stay on the grid, the state will subsidize the investment. Anyone planning to go off grid gets cold fusion treatment .

    • Kim

      Your are right on.
      We worship gold.

      We need to worship people.

      Respect
      Kim

      • Roger Bird

        That would be a really great idea, and I do worship people. But how are you going to get most other people to worship people. You can’t. The only thing that you can do is be a friend and be an example. A true worshipper of people told me that once. And I have never forgotten it.

      • Ramey

        If you mean respect and value the lives of our fellow brothers and sisters, then yes I agree, worship in the true sense…not quite….just sayin….

        • Roger Bird

          He means value intensely. But I use “worship” a lot to mean value intensely.

        • Kim

          Value

    • Ryan

      While I am an avid supporter of cold fusion technologies I also have to mention that even if hot fusion is achieved and had large reactors to start that would not preclude the development of smaller, compact reactors later on. Remember the first computer filled a building and didn’t even have the power of a modern calculator. Now we have smart phones that can fit in your hand and blow away the power of that first computer by orders of magnitude.

      Ideally I hope that cold fusion tech will be able to be micronized so that we can have hearing aid battery sized power plants that we can plug into mobile devices so we aren’t constantly tethered to power plugs. This would also be great for robotics though the power plants could be larger in those cases.

      Honestly I hope that cold fusion research gives greater insights into how hot fusion works as well given that hot fusion has a number of applications that could be useful as well.

  • Patronym

    And jean-pierre petit explained that the plasma is too unstable and dangerous for the structure of tokamak, disruptions will cause important dommage rapidly in the first experiments.
    But nuclear and oil lobbies are too strong in france.

  • Lukedc

    Just having a quick browse through;
    http://rossilivecat.com/
    It would appear that the reigns have been put on him by his commercial partner. I don’t doubt that it is still Rossi that is penning the comments but anyone could see that he has been advised to stop disseminating information in minutiae about the E-Cat…
    Not sure where this leaves us all who are used to the constant breadcrumbs of news going forward.
    If I was to speculate, the partner in the US has evaluated the engineering sample that Rossi has delivered. I have no doubt that it exhibited anomalous heat. What I think they may have issue with is the energy density and serviceability of the reactor. If they are going back to the product engineering stage for the original designs then we could be looking at in excess of 12 months before a decent prototype is ready.
    From an engineers perspective, albeit not a mechanical or nuclear I would be making attempts to streamline the maintenance of the device. Simplify the exchange of the Ni + H + Catalyst cores, and trivialise the exchange of a failed or faulty reactor while maintaining the parallelism of the reactors in production. If this is to be a primary source of power with 99.99% uptime then this would be my main concern. He could get away with a fluctuating thermal heat supply. But if he was to get into electricity generation fluctuations are to be kept to a minimum.

    Anyway just my two cents…

    • Kim

      Good two cents.

      They want to americanize the thing.

      Your right they know it works.

      Now they want to take it apart and
      streamline the engineering
      for maximum profit and max work load
      with confidence.

      When they present there will be no
      doubt we have entered a knew age

      Respect
      Kim

      • MStone

        thus, the question on my mind…

        how long is it going to take them to present.

  • dsm

    Re overcost projects promoted by people who are beneficiaries of the over cost program.

    The below is one I am well aware of because of my own involvement with new aircraft designs. The V-22 Osprey program est costs are around $60 billion $s – for devel, manufacture and keeping them in the air.

    The 1st site lists in excellent detail information that is well known in the military aircraft manufacturing industry. In a nutshell the V-22 Osprey was a defective concept that was shown to be able to work if you throw billions of $s at it and as many billions again to keep them in the air.

    The cost over runs are staggering and in line with the same massive billions re ITER.

    http://www.g2mil.com/scandal.htm

    This 2nd link adds another perspective as to how deep the corruption went.
    http://www.militarycorruption.com/osprey.htm

    Below is a pretty accurate & unemotional history of the Osprey program (Wiki) and an extract …

    EXTRACT:
    Controversy

    The V-22’s development process has been long and controversial, partly due to its large cost increases.[49] The V-22’s development budget was first planned for $2.5 billion in 1986, then increased to a projected $30 billion in 1988.[31] As of 2008, $27 billion had been spent on the Osprey program and another $27.2 billion will be required to complete planned production numbers by the end of the program.[24]

    Its [The V-22’s] production costs are considerably greater than for helicopters with equivalent capability—specifically, about twice as great as for the CH-53E, which has a greater payload and an ability to carry heavy equipment the V-22 cannot… an Osprey unit would cost around $60 million to produce, and $35 million for the helicopter equivalent.
    —Michael E. O’Hanlon, 2002.[50]

    LINK:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey

    Point about the Osprey is it is flying and in use in very restricted places (well away from combat risk). It is the cost of keeping it in the air on top of the massive cost to get it flying.

    DSM

    • dsm

      PS note re the Osprey that the two times 27 Billion is as I recall it only the cost of design and build of the committed craft, it does not include the extraordinary running costs of keeping each craft in the air.

      This link estimates the 30 year lifespan of the project will total at around $121 Billion.

      The cost for the Marines to fix and fly their full fleet of V-22 tiltrotors has grown by nearly two-thirds over just four years, according to a Pentagon estimate. In 2008, the Defense Department calculated the “lifetime” cost of operating 360 V-22 Osprey transports at $75 billion over roughly 30 years. Today the figure is more than $121 billion — a 61-percent increase.

      http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/12/osprey-costs-soar/

      DSM

      (ITER may turn out to be cheap – lol – 🙁 )

      DSM

      • Roger Bird

        Someone has to defend the Corrupt States of America.

        • dsm

          Roger
          I tried to work out how many people in America work & then divide that number into 121 billion as that will say how much each person will have contributed over the lifetime of the project.

          My guess is – a lot !.

          DSM

  • wiilgh

    “It will take an unforeseeable amount of time” this sounds like an exit strategy, doesn’t it?

    Care about Yourself, enjoy the summer an forget the e-cat until Your local newspaper reports on it!

    “The E-Cat technology is undergoing rigorous testing and the results positive, negative or inconclusive will provide further guidance about its potential. It will take an unforeseeable amount of time before we will make public any precise information regarding the E-Cat under scrutiny in the USA.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.”

    • Kim

      Cold

    • Lukedc

      What summer? It’s winter here.

    • Deleo77

      Yeah, if you are holding your breath to see an e-cat anywhere in the world soon, I think you do so at your own peril.

  • l

    Even if ITER will be completed it will be a utterly nosense.

    A reactor rated 300-400 MWe with a strike price rounding 15B$ will remain on the desk.

    • GreenWin

      ITER is presently 300% OVER budget with no end in sight. 2035 may be the reactor startup procedure. Twenty years later for commercial product IF all is perfect.

      http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/10/30/1544252/iter-fusion-project-struggles-to-put-the-pieces-together

    • otto1923

      Costs will come down with advances in high-temp superconductors and materials tech.

      The money we are spending now is essential to learning how to store and manipulate bulk plasma in the only configuration with any potential for doing so. IT DOES NOT MATTER whether it can ultimately produce power or not.

      The enabling tech will catch up.

      • Roger Bird

        Why bother?

      • l

        I suppose that the future hot fusion reactors will have to replace all the magnets every five years for a couple of bilions.

        In my opinion hot fusion reactor will produce radioactive waste.

        For sure a huge bureocratic apparatus will be need to exploit this energy.

        And there are plenty of alternative, not-tokamak, nuclear fusion reactor designs able to produce knowledge and maybe energy, this really matter.

        • MStone

          If the e-cat works as advertised. I would like to see the ITER turned in to a pure-science project for the study of high energy plasma and hot fusion.

          • Roger Bird

            I don’t want to spend a penny of my money, including my tax money on it. I will be voting against it.

  • GreenWin

    Nobel laureate Physics Pierre-Gilles de Gennes said of nuclear fusion, “We say that we will put the sun into a box. The idea is pretty. The problem is, we don’t know how to make the.”

    63 years, $259B global taxes dollars – ZERO useful energy.

    • GreenWin

      From the BBC article: ” I asked a panel of experts when the first commercially-available fusion reactor might generate power for the grid.

      A few said that could happen within 40 years but most said it would take another 50 or even 60 years. “ BBC

      • Gerrit

        It’s not the R&D scam of the century. it’s the R&D scam of two centuries.

        • Roger Bird

          Actually, in all honesty, even though I am a hyperbole addict, hot fusion is the worst R&D scandal in the history of the World. Really.

      • Roger Bird

        I am telling you the truth, people. Since the late 1960’s when a nuclear physicist friend of mine pointed this out to me, that time to ignition has increased. If only politicians understood this.

  • GreenWin

    Nobel laureate Ohysics Pierre-Gilles de Gennes said of nuclear fusion, “We say that we will put the sun into a box. The idea is pretty. The problem is, we don’t know how to make the.”

    • Dickyaesta

      ….the box 😉 This seemed to got lost two times in the translation he Greenwin

  • Nixter

    From Rossi’s blog today,..

    “”The E-Cat technology is undergoing rigorous testing and the results- positive, negative or inconclusive- will provide further guidance about its potential. It will take an unforeseeable amount of time before we will make public any precise information regarding the E-Cat under scrutiny in the USA.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.””

    This is an indication that his E-Cats are again being tested, when Rossi says, “Under scrutiny”, that sounds like, “Being Tested.” As in internal testing, or the promised long term testing by Celani et al. He is answering a question put forth specifically about the “New Factory”, but seems to be saying that no information will be released until the tests are completed.

    • Jimr

      The wording indicates this statrment was generated by someone other than Rossi. But thats fine with me. My main concern now is the LARGE company that Rossi says he is operating with. His definition of large concerns me, 20, 50, 1000 employees, I hope it is a major company.

      • Roger Bird

        Siemens has a natural gas turbine factory in North Carolina. I heard them brag about it on the radio. I hope that helps.

        • Jimr

          I hope you are correct, but I think it’s wishful thinking.

          • Roger Bird

            I heard it on the radio, so it must be true. In an advertisement yet. (:->)

    • daniel maris

      OK, here’s the kind interpretation:

      It is not the principle or reality of LENR that is being tested, it is a prototype commercial product.

      • Jorge

        My thoughts exactly.
        The partner would be a fool if he wasn’t already sure of the science behind it.
        It’s just such a nail baiting period waiting period until they come up with a commercial product. I am expecting all matter of aspects have to be looked at before they can do it.
        Can it be that it will be concluded in 2014?
        J

  • Gordon Docherty

    Good to see Tokamak fusion is still 50 years away… Might as well get on with LENR in the meantime… 🙂

  • georgehants

    BBC
    Greater Gabbard wind farm opens off East coast.
    The Greater Gabbard wind farm can produce up to 500MW of energy
    The second largest offshore wind farm in the world has been officially opened off the Suffolk and Essex coast.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23603011

    • georgehants
    • zvibenyosef

      I am an expat Brit living in America. I was really upset to learn that some British politicians are promoting the idea of fracking in England. I do hope that everyone there realizes the dangers posed by the toxic chemicals employed in fracking, and are aware of the high risk of contamination of the precious potable water supply.
      I have given up on America as a lost cause. The people here are just too stupid for words.

      • Ryan

        It’s not that the people are too stupid, at least not all of them, it is that they are misinformed from almost every conceivable direction. The power players that want to do these sorts of things have the loudest megaphone and have the capacity to drown out the voices of those that recognize the problems of these activities. So many people in this country, and around the world really, go day to day just trying to scrabble together the money needed to exist and are exhausted from that effort. Thus they seek out mind-numbing distractions instead of thinking of solutions because thinking would take more energy and many have been convinced that they wouldn’t have the ability to come up with any real solutions even if they tried. Our media doesn’t help when 90% of what it churns out focuses almost entirely on the negative news or on trite banalities like reality tv. If you’re told day in and day out that there’s no hope and that nothing will get better or change then there are a lot of people that will believe it. Once they’re convinced there is no actual way out of a situation or that things will always get worse they then usually end up being part of the problem as well as they cheer on that mentality, unable to look for or think of possibilities that might make things better.

    • Roger Bird

      These wind generators will eventually become standing monuments to remind people that scientists are not gods and that they can become prisoners of their own perspective, just exactly like everyone else.

    • R101

      Greater Gabbard

      Sounds like someone from the Lord of the Rings 😉

  • atanguy

    We have to stop this nonsense!
    I suggest that from this blog we start a petition asking all the governments involved to have an independent study showing the actual and future problems of this technology,if it can work, and the past,current and future costs.
    The lobby of the nuclear high energy physicists linked to the industries that profit of the project should be stopped!

  • Otto1923

    The bulk storage of materials such as antimatter in plasma form is an essential technology for the future, and closed magnetic bottles such as the tokamak and the stellerator are the best ways we know of doing this.

    The promise of cheap power is a convenient way of getting the public to foot the bill for these mega-projects. And who knows? Maybe they can be energy producers as well.

    And our civilization needs to know how to build machines of this size and complexity. Learning how to build the ISS for instance is far more important than anything else we might do there.

    ITER is vital for many reasons.

    • atanguy

      “ITER is vital”
      Yep!For people and corporations who make money with it,not for mankind. Our resources are limited and should be directed to projects that can solve the energy problem and global warming within the shortest of time. And even if ITER was producing energy economically,it would be the wrong way as it follows the way energy has been developed in the past where it is controlled by states or large corporations instead to be decentralized.

    • Roger Bird

      What you think is important and what others including myself think is important may not be the same thing. For example, containing anti-matter in such large quantities has never been something that kept me tossing and turning at night. (:->) On the other hand, seeing people starve to death has bothered me deeply.

      • otto1923

        But really, it doesnt matter what WE think is important does it? It is useful and fun to see what others think is important, and what they are deciding to spend billions on, and try to understand WHY they are doing this.

        Understanding how materials act in plasma form is obviously very important because of the amount of money being spent on it and the amount of effort being put into it.

        It is easy to see that this will be essential knowledge to have in the future.

        “seeing people starve to death”

        -The only way to solve the worlds problems is with science, and with the end of the obsolete cultures which restrict it.

        • Roger Bird

          “The only way to solve the worlds problems is with science” Go look at the news and tell me what percentage of real problems will be solved with science. People will still want to do abortions and other people will still oppose that. People will still commit murder and suicide and robbery and other crimes. Liberals will still want to spend government money (not their own money of course) on good things, and conservatives will still oppose that idea. There will still be nationalism. Budgets will still be limited. Some people will still be lazy, selfish, greedy, vain, angry, Etc., Etc., Etc.

          “and with the end of the obsolete cultures which restrict it.” How do you propose ending the cultures that restrict science? You could nuke them; that would be very scientific.

          I have never actually met a person who worships at the altar of modern science as fanatically as you do. Science will not satisfy, touch, nor even approach the human heart, and I am not talking about the organ beating in a person’s chest.

        • hempenearth

          “Understanding how materials act in plasma form is obviously very important because of the amount of money being spent on it and the amount of effort being put into it”

          Football is obviously very important because of the amount of money being spent on it and the amount of effort being put into it.

          Fashion is obviously very important because of the amount of money being spent on it and the amount of effort being put into it.

          Perfume is obviously very important because of the amount of money being spent on it and the amount of effort being put into it.

          Horse racing is obviously very important because of the amount of money being spent on it and the amount of effort being put into it.

          Otto, I hope you see my point.

          • Roger Bird

            Outstanding. That was an inductive presentation that shows the tomfoolery of that thinking. Here is the deductive: Lots of money being thrown at a project only means that the people throwing money at a project thinks that the project is worthwhile, which is a form of crowd thinking. And because they have money that means that they must be wise.

          • Otto1923

            The things you mention are not important to the future of our civilization. The understanding of how to control and manipulate materials in plasma form, is. It will be as important in the future as metallurgy is to us today.

    • Robyn Wyrick

      Otto, I am *completely* in favor of Hot Fusion Nuclear Research, as basic science, like the ISS or the LHC. But the “cheap power” argument is a boondoggle, pure and simple.

      It is like saying we’re likely to get teleportation/telecommuting from the LHC. “One day, because of the LHC, all your goods and services will be instantly teleported to your living room!”

      That’s not inconceivable, it’s just not something for which you sideline 3D printing, or improving the roads and rails.

      It’s great basic science. So is studying duck genitalia.

      • otto1923

        “But the “cheap power” argument is a boondoggle, pure and simple” -robyn

        -Perhaps. So what? It sells. Everything of any import needs to be SOLD. And plasma physics is a little more important than genitals. Look at all the trouble they went to to produce the 6000 tons of fissionables currently at our disposal.

        These magnetic bottles will be used to store and transport all sorts of exotic stuff in plasma form. There is no other way to do this, and we absolutely have to know how.

        Interesting that ITER is being built very close and directly south of a very large facility with the potential to produce antimatter and other useful particles in bulk.

        Probably just a coincidence.

        • Roger Bird

          Just a complete load of crapola. Genitals are way more important than plasma containment. Although quite common, roughly 7.1 billion in the world today, and kind of gross, genitals make people. And people give meaning to ALL things. There are those who believe that nothing even exists without people. And it is absolutely certain that nothing has meaning unless in relationship with people or other sentient beings. More plasma containment is worthless. We have all of the plasma containment that we really need in the Sun and fluorescent bulbs.

          • Otto1923

            In the future genitals will be superfluous. The bulk of the natter in the universe exists in plasma form. We will be using materials such as antimatter which could not be contained and moved in any other state. Most advanced propulsion systens include matter in a plasma state.

            These things are pretty obvious don’t you think?

            • Roger Bird

              “In the future genitals will be superfluous. The bulk of the matter in the universe exists in plasma form.” That is my very favorite non sequitor of the day, until my wife gets home of course.

  • Dan

    One really has to wonder why these hot fusion projects that have no hope of producing any useful amount of energy can get tens of billions in funding every year but LENR can’t get any funding at all. You would think that if we can spend tens of billions on something that has been “just around the corner” for decades we could afford to spend a few tens of millions exploring other ideas like LENR.

    • http://www.lenr-forum.com barty

      The point is you don’t have to prove that hot fusion realy works. The sun is shining every day, so no one will doubt that it is working (somehow).
      Hot fusion is also already replicated by mankind, unfortunately in nuclear wapons.

      For LENR, the ultimate undoubtable prove is missing, replacations are made but only with very weak evidence.
      Rossi and Defkalion could change this by just applying a patent and releasing their secrets, and supporting universities in replicating their device. But they wont… 🙁

      • Roger Bird

        barty, don’t put the blame on Rossi and DGT. They can’t get a patent if the patent office won’t give them a patent. But I think that you already knew this.

      • Robert

        ….”but only with very weak evidence”

        I believe there is something else involved here. Truthfully, the evidence is not weak. There is quite an abundance of documented and trust worthy experiments showing that the “anonymous heat” exists. Even in relative large COP. True no proven theory, but we have no complete understanding of gravity either.

        Also, distinguished entities such as Dr’s Kim (Purdue) and Duncan (Unv. of Mo) also publicly state the “effect” is real. These men have the education, experience, proven reputations to be above reproach in this area. You can forget scams, hidden wires, “Beamed High frequencies” concerning them or thier tests. Not to mention many foreign entities as well.

        The US spends untold amounts going to Mars to find what? Speculation about life, speculation aboue various astrological theory, planet formation, etc. etc. All at high risk of failure and questionable return on investments.

        With LENR / Cold Fusion (what ever one wants to call it) logic dictates that if there is even a remote chance that it could be “True”, then the theoretical return on investment (low cost power, no green house gas, no radioactive waste, etc. etc.) mandates a serious investigation into it. Not only by private enterprise, but governments as well. As stated, if these governments think it “worth” the investment into hot fusion, logic states LENR much more “worth while”.

        I do not believe it is lack of proof. There are many highly funded projects with little to no proof.

        Some say it is academia suppressing it because cold fusion is not coming from them. Others say big oil. Yet others the banks.

        I am not a conspiracy theorist, so I do not know what exactly is holding this back, but it certainly is very strange that it is as such.

        • zvibenyosef

          It is a combination of factors. The shadow cast by what happened to Fleischmann and Pons. There is a lot of fear out there amongst scientists whose careers depend upon funding from powerful corporations which stand to lose a lot of money when LENR takes off. I believe there are also still technical hurdles to overcome, chiefly the problem of control, to prevent a runaway reaction which destroys the device, also but probably much easier to solve is the problem of efficiently converting the heat energy to electricity.

          • Robert

            I understand it is not a mature field of science. But nothing is during the infancy stage. Microwave ovens were not economical at first. Planes were extremely dangerous at first. Even cell phones were clumsy and only worked in small areas. So the fact that LENR is not “fully commercial” is probably not the problem for its lack of research. Again, it hold the potential far above almost any other field. AND at a small
            cost. No huge colliders, plasma containment systems etc. required. Truthfully, it would be “small change” research.

            There are a growing number of distinguished professors publicly stating the effect is real. Both in the US, Europe, Russia, India, Japan and Sweden. Purdue and Univ. of Mo. has fairly major projects on this. NASA has been working on it.
            Corporations in Japan have as well. So I do not think fear of careers is the major concern. To the opposite… the professor who comes up with a working theory that gets accepted will certainly win a Nobel and go down in history. This would provide a major incentive. I am sure there is some resistance in academia, but to say it is stopping research cold, I find unlikely.

            No, I must think there is something more, but I am not sure what it is. As stated, perhaps a combination of things. Perhaps some of the conspiracy theories have merit. It is strange. 🙂

            • Pedro

              “it would be small change research” may in fact be one of the hold ups… Much more money to be made in hot fusion research.

          • Roy O’Neil

            Even without a COP high enough to efficiently produce electricity, LENR would more than pay for itself as a preheater in todays generation systems. However in my opinion, there wont be a problem with direct electricity generation. It will eventually be its biggest application.

      • Dan

        If we only worked on things we already knew worked we’d still be hacking at each other with stone axes.

  • http://www.lenr-forum.com barty

    There is the hope that we could one day replicate something like the energy of the sun at a high COP (this article mentions production of 500 MW at a COP of 10 ) from a cheap fuel, with no greenhouse emissions and no radioactive waste.

    This is wrong! The used deuterium is radio-toxic, and during the fusion process fast neutrons are emitted in large amouts, which activates the materials around the deuterium-plasma. The whole reactor is getting radio-active, the concrete, the steel, everthing is getting radio-active caused by the emitted neutrons.

    • Warthog

      Remember, these are reporters whose knowledge of science is probably close to nil. They undoubtedly think that because there is no fission process, that there is no radioactive waste (aka “spent fuel”). The idea of normal structures “becoming” radioactive over time is probably “above their pay grade”.

      • http://www.lenr-forum.com barty

        And, of course, the hot fusion scientists mention this fact only very grudgingly. When everyone knows this, the public (and so the tax payers) acceptance of fusion reactors could be threatened.

        What’s also important in this manner, is the fact that the radio-active activated reactor materials embrittle very fast also caused by the neutron shower. These then radio-active materials have to be replaced every 3 – 5 years (depending on the energy the plasma is “creating”), and THIS is the radio-active waste which also have to be stored somewhere like todays uranium fuel.

        For more informations, ready the wikipedia article:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power#Waste_management

    • http://www.e-catworld.com admin

      Thanks for the correction — the BBC article actually says ‘relatively little’ radioactive waste. My mistake, which is now corrected.

    • zvibenyosef

      Deuterium is not radio toxic, but tritium is