Washington Post Gives Visibility for LENR at WonkBlog

Here’s a chance for people to share their thoughts and lend their support to LENR at the Washington Post’s Wonkblog (thanks for finding this, Sanjeev!). The Wonkblog has a social platform, CrowdSourced, which allows readers to share their ideas which other readers can vote on.

The first discussion on Wonkblog CrowdSources is around the question “What energy sources offer the most promise for the U.S. economically and environmentally?” It would seem this would be an ideal venue for a discussion of LENR. Already on the first page among what are considered the “more interesting” comments by writer Neil Irwin are some mentions of LENR:

Low Energy Nuclear reactions, aka cold fusion, deserve more attention. Cold fusion challenges our understanding of plasma fusion, which leads to its quick dismissal by many. However there is a growing body of research showing the effects are real and replicable.

Mark Gibbs of Forbes is doing a good job following one of the more promising prospects. Start here for more.

And,

If LENr can be developed as a conventional energy source society would have unlimited energy with almost zero pollution. Pretty much what everyone is looking for, right?

If you want to vote for a particular energy source proposal, or share your own, you can do so here. LENR currently is tied in fourth place with six votes. I think it might deserve to be higher.

  • Barry

    Wow! The people have spoken at the Washington Post. It’s a little confusing because many of the different posters to vote for are saying the same thing “LENR” including one from Peter Ro…I mean fortyniner.

  • kwhilborn

    Don’t forget to vote up all LENR comments while you are commenting there. We need this Major Media Source to wake up.

    LENR topics are slow moving because mainstream science neglects this news because of stigma.

    We need to bury the Stigma if we want LENR sooner.

    A Billion dollar investment would CRUSH ROSSI efforts.

    Let’s Comment there and VOTE THUMBS UP/LIKE on all LENR comments.

  • kasom

    When I look at the topics of the last days, it seems, that we are perfectly distracted from what counts:

    30. of April the container and the H-Cat Prototype were delivered to the secret partner!

    It is 6 weeks ago and A.R. doesn’t know anything?

    Bermudas on the route?

    • Kim

      I agree its time for some answers.

      I to have been watching the calender.

      It has to be up and running by now!

      So could we have a little confirmation?

      Respect
      Kim

    • Deleo77

      I agree, on another thread I said I thought it would be difficult for Rossi to drag out the uncertainty much longer. You have this, the upcoming 6 month test, the Hydrofusion delivery by late Fall… Perhaps some here will go another 6 or 12 months on no concrete evidence, but I don’t see why. Here is hoping things come to light soon.

    • freethinker

      But what is it you expect to see now?

      The thing must arrive, be placed at ample location (transport within US). It must be set up, it must be tested and handed over. Training of people. It must put in operation, also adapted to the energy distribution system.
      Perhaps some hands on support to curb initial problems.
      There might be some inspection needed from authorities, with waiting time to receive proper papers to go ahead. It must be run a while to reach some level of confidence. Be evaluated. From the end customer side. From the partner side.

      Why would they come out with any info before all that is done and secured?

      No, hold your horses.

      The summer will come and go before any substantial information about the customer or the partner will emerge, that is my bet. It may even be late autumn or early next year.

      Maybe HydroFusion will be first to actually have a showcase?

      • Omega Z

        freethinker

        We live in the internet age.
        People are use to instant gratification.

        E-cats however are real world where things take time.
        Point Click doesn’t make it happen.

        They need to realize that if Rossi said it had arrived, they would very soon want additional details long before they are available. Rossi probably realizes this.

        He will tell us when he’s ready. Not before And that may indeed depend very much on the Partner & Customer. Hence the reason he mentioned a while back that there may be more Photo’s at a latter date, BUT No Guarantee’s.

  • Roger Bird

    8 out of 11 of the top 11 are LENR. I guess that this will get the message out. But will such religious-like fervor help?

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Come on Roger, this has nothing to do with religion and we shouldn’t even compare it with religion. Religion is about believe whereas we can talk about facts.

      There is enough potential to derange the blog when people start commenting on the LENR issue, so we must take care to stay sensible en reasonable, but I don’t see much wrong with this.

      Edit: we are at 86 and 45 number 1 and 2 now.

      By the way, some interesting alternative energy sources there (tension energy???)

      • Barry

        Yahoo! Good exposure.

    • Roger Bird

      But it may APPEAR to be religious fervor, that I why I said religious-LIKE fervor. You just wasted a lot of typing and then made me correct your mistake.

      • AB

        To avoid coming across as lunatic, make references to authoritative sources and experiments (ENEA page on the recent Brussels conference is perfect). These are firmly in the realm of science.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Didn’t mean to rile you, Roger. You make a good point.

        When you use “religious-like” it is an apples – oranges comparison is what I argued. I agree that people on a blog can use phrases like that which is why I said we must be careful.

        Still the point I was trying to make is that I don’t think we should be put of because some people on a blog may use the “religious” argument. If we scare our self’s and start acting different because of what people may say on a blog, we’re heading in the wrong direction.

      • John-64

        I’m guessing a lot of people on this website are not native English speakers. I’m guessing Italian would be a common language spoken here as well.

        • Roger Bird

          Many people take it that it is your responsibility to figure out what they mean rather than their responsibility to make themselves understood.

  • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

    Tom888 is second. Thanks people!

  • Roger Bird

    This time I am not fooled. I will not vote for anything other than LENR/cold fusion no matter how cool it is. LENR for the Win!!!!

  • Pedro

    I’m not sure if we are doing the right thing at wonkblog. If LENR had been 20% of the entries and remarks, it would have gotten a lot of serious looks from people that never before came across lenr. Now however, the wonkblog is 90% lenr and nobody will take it seriously anymore. It looks like some lenr herd highjacked the discussion. Which is what we have done! Kind of overkill.

    • fortyniner

      You may be right. 5 out of the top 6 comments are now for LENR – it does look a bit odd. Perhaps it’s time to give it a rest for a bit.

      • freethinker

        🙂

        I too agree to some degree, but then again, if content is logical and, like AB wrote above, there perhaps are some credible link, will show that there are a number of people who actually take this so seriously that are informed and want to contribute. (edit: So I agree with Zeddicus Zul Zorander)

        Granted that it may disturb some readers, but if nothing else, the paper must find this interesting.

        There is also the “front page” to make normal comments in.

        I do not think we should be shy to comment on this issue. We all know there can easily be a lot of unsubstantiated negative commentaries out there.

        • fortyniner

          Definitely the more posts with credible links (as AB suggested) the better. Your turn, freethinker! (Unless you have already posted under another handle/name.)

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Yeah, well what can you do.

      Our intentions aren’t wrong and it IS time more people get to know the term LENR. We obviously care a lot about this topic.

      I think as long as we leave sensible comments on the blog, there is nothing wrong with hijacking it.

      IMHO of course.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Where are the pathoskepts when you need them?

      • freethinker

        The money guy has skipped his last few payments, so there is no longer any incentive 😉

        • fortyniner

          There are still the lo*nies like Hody. But I guess his IP address may be widely banned.

  • GreenWin

    Votes for LENR comment are up to 81 now… http://wapo.st/1793ExY

    Be sure to read the Washington Post’s story “Warming Up to Cold Fusion” (link at GreenWin on June 14, 2013 at 3:32 pm – below)

  • Sandy

    Molecular impact energy generation is another potential source of unlimited energy.

    See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz8nWaQp37o

    And see http://www.mistenergysystems.com/19059/dsp_agent_page.php/195884/The_Engine/The_Engine

    • raindeer

      I dont understand in what way that is an energy source? Theyve just invented an elaborate way of boiling whater..?

      • Sandy

        “Our test have proven that the energy created from high impact ‘dry’ steam exceeds by multiples, the man-made energy required to run the system.” — M.I.S.T.

        Their V-2 steam engine turns a 12kW electric generator and thereby produces 4 to 5 times more electrical energy than is used to generate the dry steam that drives the V-2 steam engine.

        Blasting clusters of water molecules into a metal target breaks those clusters apart and that releases the hydrogen bond energy that binds the water molecules to each other. That released energy produces the dry steam that drives the V-2 steam engine.

        • fortyniner

          Interesting link – thanks. It’s not the only claimed system for dissociating water molecules and releasing the binding energy, so perhaps there’s something there. Like CF prior to open demos and testing, it needs some kind of objective assessment to be taken seriously. Something else to keep an eye on, just in case.

    • GreenWin

      Looks like they use liquid cutter concept at 3k psi to superheat water. Not sure if water pre-heat energy is included in these calcs, but interesting.

      “This gives us an output of 1139 watts using only 124.3 watts of energy. The rest of the energy comes from the energy contained within the bonding of the molecules of water.”

    • Anonymous Reader

      Someone else help me out. This appears to be a perpetual motion machine.

      The use electricity to pump water to >10000 PSI. They then release the water through an orifice into a heated but lower pressure chamber to shoot the water at 3000 m/s. The water hits the metal target and becomes steam. The steam is syphoned off to drive a turbine which then drives an electrical generator. The condensed steam is then fed back into the high pressure pump to close the loop.

      They claim 5 to 10X energy produced compared to the energy used in shooting the water. They claim the pump is 85% efficient. I am assuming the turbine is 40% efficient and the electric generator is 85% efficient. So overall for each loop the have 5*.4*.85*.85 = 1.5X more energy is made in each loop, i.e. perpetual motion and uses no external anything.

      Finally, it seems to me that the hydrogen bonds in the water molecules between other water molecules (my understanding is that each water molecule has space on the O for extra 2 H that are already bound to other water molecules, and that each H already bound to a water molecule can bind one O on another water molecule. I understand that these are effectively electrostatic dipoles that attract, like magnets, thereby releasing energy (exothermic) when they come together (condensation) and requiring energy for them to break apart (endothermic). Hence we need to add heat to boil water and we get heat out when water condenses (making thunder storm clouds rise even faster). So this reaction by MIST Energy System claims to break apart water and get extra energy out, i.e. it is now exothermic for electric dipoles to fly apart? Doesn’t make sense to this old physicist.

      It is as if the water around us is at a higher energy state than the steam and we just do some trick to liberate the energy and then we can return the water to the higher energy state by cooling it in a condenser. Condensing the water takes energy out for sure, doesn’t put energy back in the water.

      Help.

      Some one else help me out with the two issues above.

      I highly suspect that MIST Energy made a mistake in measurement. The demo V-2 engine shows me nothing, and unless they can show clearly more energy out than in or perpetual motion, I don’t buy it.

      • Sandy

        I find the M.I.S.T. engine perplexing for the same reasons. Perhaps when one water molecule forms a hydrogen bond with another water molecule they absorb and store a little zero-point energy and that stored energy is released as heat when the molecules are separated from each other by blasting them into a hard metal surface. Could that separation heat make the resulting dry steam extra powerful, thereby accounting for the ability of the M.I.S.T. system to produce more electrical energy than it consumes?

        • Anonymous Reader

          I will look it up, but isn’t zero point energy the devices from Stargate Atlantis?

      • fortyniner

        Anonymous Reader, you are dismissing this concept on the basis that it doesn’t conform to known principles of physics – just as others have dismissed LENR for the same reason. There may be measurement errors – without further information we can’t know either way.

        There are plenty of other ‘anomalous’ effects awaiting independent examination – plasma expansion motors, Garner Gyrogenerator, Hutchinson effect, the Terawatt Research torque amplifier, and at least one (‘Brown’s gas welders) that is in production and selling, even while physics says the principle of operation is invalid.

        Perhaps the most constructive attitude may simply be neutrality at this stage. If there are any developments, there is an off-topic forum attached to this site where updates could be posted.

        • Anonymous Reader

          “…principles of know physics…”

          The theories of LENR, particularly the fact that the energy mass of the copper atom is lower than the energy state of the nickel + hydrogen, conforms particularly well to conventional physics. It is even possible that Wisdom Larsen, or some other variation of metal hydride electron cloud can hide the electrostatic repulsion of the hydrogen for the nickel nuclei. Nothing in LENR says perpetual motion. We burn higher potential energy fuel, i.e. nickel+hydrogen for copper. Once burnt you can’t go back to the nickel+hydrogen without adding energy from the outside. So LENR can be consistent with physics as we know it.

          This MIST device says perpetual motion which violates the law, or if you prefer, the hypothesis of thermodynamics called time’s arrow, i.e. that entropy must always increase in a closed system. So far, we have not see any variance from that hypothesis, hence it is called a “law”.

          I would love for the world of change where we could make time’s arrow work in reverse so I could get younger, live forever, and have infinite everything I want from a Star Trek replicator.

          As a scientist, I am looking for a confirming experiment that can be replicated by anyone and everyone using scientific rigor to prove or disprove the hypothesis. So good luck to MIST Technologies, but in the interim, I think there is a 0.00001% chance that they actually have a working device that uses this phenomena to do useful work, let alone perpetual motion. When I (subjectively) see a probability this low, it means I discount it for the purposes of day to day existence. I never say never, but it would be new physics, akin to an alternative universe giving us free energy through a hole in the fabric of space time. I would love it, but I doubt it so.

          • Sandy

            Hydrosonic pumps work on the water-hammer effect. http://hydrosonicpump.com

            The M.I.S.T. energy production system seem similar. But, instead of just heating the water, M.I.S.T turns water directly into steam and sends the steam into a piston engine.

            Blasting water molecules into a hard metal object seems to release more hydrogen bond energy than making cavitation bubbles that collapse and thereby smash water molecules into each other.

          • Roger Bird

            Yes, agreed, but I am willing to look more and willing to see a demonstration. But I won’t be giving them any money unless someone like you says it is a good idea.

        • Tom59

          Pressure generation, release, implact plate… This is daily business in many industries since decades (year 1900 Paris world fair – equipment by Auguste Gaulin) with pressues well above 10000 psi – called homogenisation. In the process, the liquid heats up, dissipating the input energy ( e.g. milk homogenisation). Lab trials went to riducolously high pressures. No reports on energy generation.
          As LENR supporters, we should be open to fresh concepts and any new working process is highly welcome, but perpetuum concepts do exists – we may better focus on LENR undiluted on this site.

          • Roger Bird

            Thank you, Tom59. You just went up to Tom61. I will stop curiousitizing about it. If it is real, then it will emerge. If it is not, it won’t. In either case, it doesn’t need my attention.

    • Steve H

      It may not be a good idea to distract our attention away from LENR – (Cold Fusion for the brave amongst us)
      However an open-mind is to be admired.

    • Roger Bird

      Since I haven’t written any book attacking perpetual motion machines, I see not problem with checking it out. I love mysteries. I have nothing to lose.

    • Thinks4Self

      I see two potential problems.

      1. Water at that pressure will wear down/destroy the the object it is impacting. How long can their device can run before it cuts a hole in itself?

      2. They never mention the energy needed to keep their reaction chamber at constant temperature. This needed energy is likely what keeps it from violating the laws of thermodynamics and being perpetual motion.

  • GreenWin

    While we are all voting let’s look back at the Washington Post when it employed real journalists covering real news. In November 2004 Sharon Weinberger wrote a feature article in the Sunday edition of the Post titled:

    “Warming Up to Cold Fusion” http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54964-2004Nov16_2.html

    The story details the secret U.S. Department of Energy meeting with six prominent scientists to revisit the status and funding of cold fusion research. Hidden from view in a drab Rockville, MD Doubletree hotel, the DOE severely restricted public access to the meeting:

    “The Department of Energy went to great lengths to cloak the meeting from public view. No announcement, no reporters. None of the names of the people attending that day was disclosed.”

    The article recounts the tale of the DOE’s 2004 review of cold fusion research and Drs. Michael McKubre and Peter Hagelstein’s (ultimately) vain attempt to obtain public funding. Germane to the subject is opposition from the elite Jasons(1) advisory group to the Pentagon, and Hagelstein’s resignation therefrom (prompted by Jason Chair Robert L. Park, bellicose spokesman for the American Physical Society.)

    With the cascading successes in recent weeks, the picture of opposition to LENR becomes clearer. And despite desire to avoid pointing fingers at those who impede – conclusions must be drawn. And changes must continue. Fortunately we, (this merry band) are on the path that carries the good news. Knowledge is power, and WE everywhere, are its keeper.

    (1) http://www.amazon.com/dp/0143038478

    • Barry

      Oldie but a goody.

  • Jeff Clark

    I just upvoted all the LENR comments.
    I finally feel like I am contributing.

    • Jeff Clark

      Is anyone going to get a post on JONP?

  • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

    Vote for Tom888. He’s 10 votes and gives an excellent summary of the CF/LENR situation.

    • Sanjeev

      Voted for both. Tom is now #3 with 19 votes.
      I personally feel that Europe will be the first to adopt LENR as their primary energy source.

      • Hampus

        USA will have the first ecat factory! And there is a reason why Rossi left Europe, in the States people are more open the new ideas.

        When Andrea Rossi is ready to deliver ecats in the thousands I think the whole world will want to buy. The US will have the upper hand because they have the only factory. Defkalion also left Europe for North America. And Brunollium is based in California that is famous for their riskinvestors.

        • GreenWin

          Hampus, while I do not disagree, keep in mind that Italy’s ENEA and many scientists there, have worked on cold fusion since P&F in 1989. Also, there is a group of remarkable scientists in Sweden who have taken great personal risk to bring this astonishing technology to world attention.

          It is fair to say there are open and closed minded people in every nation and culture. We are fortunate to have the open minded ones embrace LENR.

        • Sanjeev

          I do wish US takes over, but its not so predictable as you might think. Things change.
          Once a public customer comes out, say the demo Ecat in Sweden, the whole world will start researching it on a war footing. Many may come up with various catalysts.
          Once a product is out, say from Rossi’s factory, it will be reverse engineered in a matter of days and many factories will pop up with a garden variety of products.
          It will not make Rossi and his partner bankrupt overnight because the market is huge. Only because EU countries are small and fast and not so heavily invested in oil as US is, I had this feeling.

          On a side note, if US partner is smart, they will not put all their eggs in one basket, they are going to have a plan B just in case US govt sides with its oily friends.

          • fortyniner

            Don’t forget that it’s the ‘old’ and probably obsolescent LT e-cat that is being offered as a pilot/demo by ecat.com (and for which the IP could be at risk as a result). The ‘hot cat’ seems to be a distinctly different technology and may be guarded much more closely by the partner.

        • Karl

          To me it seems that strong US interest may have had a great interest in silencing the emergence of Cold Fusion from early 1989. The exact reason why will be difficult to find out but as usual most such fights are about prestige, money and power. E.g. interest not to lose $ billion in funding of Hot Fusion research after the ending of the cold war and perhaps with a little help from interest in oil and gas, etc.

          The debunking attitude had obviously a great negative impact on the rest of the world. Personally I must admit I lost interest until A. Rossi came on the scene. I think this was and is due to the extremely strong the US mainstream media and the influence of the once and partly still remarkable high standard in the US science community.

          In a way this is kind of a paradox as perhaps one of the strongest and most intensive debunkers seems to have emerged the US science community lead by people like J Huizenga and R Park both US.

          I think A. Rossi plays his cards quite well. He has spread his operations and uses experts from various countries and universities (mainly European it seems). To me it looks he has also got most solid assistance from Italian and Swedish scientists. There are many sharks out there and I imagine Rossi has to be careful with his actions and speeches.

          Rossi also talks a lot about his commercial US partner and in very positive terms. Let’s hope this commercial partner’s turn out to be as trustworthy as his science and commercial partners in Europe, Australia and elsewhere.

          On the positive side, this paper ECW so rightly mirror, the teaming up of a growing group of enthusiastic people from all over the world, that have decided that we want to see an honest and fair treatment and considerable funding to be put in to the important ColdFusion/LENR segment.

        • Joseph J

          So far all the news coming from Europe. The first test, certificate, report, Elforsk, Hydro Fusion.ENEA. Nothing from the U.S..

          • GreenWin

            Joseph, to be fair, the U.S. has some powerful supporters of LENR, e.g. Naval Research Laboratory, DARPA, and a small group at NASA. Also, with private funding the University of Missouri SKINR center is doing very detailed work to unravel the Pons Fleischmann Effect.

            SKINR contribution comes in spite of verbal warnings given to Vice-Chancellor Dr. Robert Duncan – from unnamed sources.

            • fortyniner

              GW – is there any more info available on what was said to Dr Duncan? Is this something he has mentioned in a public forum?

              • Roger Bird

                Dr. Duncan was told to not believe a word of what fortyniner says because fortyniner is a conspiracy theorist. (:->) Duncan was also told to never reveal this to fortyniner for fear that it would throw gasoline on fortyniner’s tendency to conspiracy theorize.

            • Joseph J

              GreenWin – I mean that nothing can be found on the e-cat and A. Rossi in US, except his apartment in Miami and his secretary, director Travis James R living in the woods of the north.
              http://www.bizapedia.com/fl/LEONARDO-CORPORATION.html

    • AlainCo

      yes, can vote for both… if it is good, vote.

      NB, OT: that is the best method of vote (the best to reach the optimal solution where people have coherent preference, and yet always give a winner). democracy should use that voting method instead of uninominal, or list vote, leading to small party making the law, or big one making the law.

      • artefact

        Yes to your OT.

  • Pachu

    Voted, 39 on top rigth now.

    • http://www.e-catworld.com admin

      There’s actually another suggestion for cold fusion coming up in the rear with 10 votes.

  • Dana

    My vote made it 37.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    KMBelliot’s post is now number 1 with 36 votes 🙂

    The margin is small, we could use some more voices.

  • Steve H

    Now running @ first position

  • drew t

    I hit it, LENR is up by one at 35

  • giza
    • AB

      The author seems confused.

  • fortyniner

    KMBelliott’s suggestion of cold fusion is currently at #2 with 24 votes, against the #1 suggestion (energy efficiency) at #1. I also registered and added my 2 cents worth.

    This is a great opportunity to raise the profile of CF that all advocates here can take advantage of.

  • Jimr

    I may have to invest in some nickel mines. Not only is LENR using nickel but today on New Energy they have a writeup about Penn St. And Cal Tech coming up with a procedure to convert nichel nano particles along with some other elements to generate hydrogen.

    • Jimr

      This may tie into how LENR operates . It may be more than a coincidence that nickel nano particles and hydrogen combination has a special affect.

  • Piero

    Number one is “use less energy”. Big deal 🙂

  • AlainCo
  • K

    Ok, done !

    • R101

      +1

    • Ecat

      Done

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Done 2

      (26 votes and counting)

      • Barry

        Done

        • Herb Gillis

          Done.

  • Hampus

    With 10 votes he is now shared second place with 2 other competitors. if everyone here votes for LENR he will surly win!

  • syl

    I voted for LENR.
    It has 10 votes now and is in 2nd place.

  • Steve M

    Washington Post – conservative establishment paper, but I just posted a link back to your blog )