Changing Power Reports of Visit to Defkalion Lab

Jeane Manning of the Changing Power web site reports on a visit that she and three engineers made to the Defkalion Green Technologies (DGT) in Vancouver this April. There she met with DGT’s Chief Technology Officer John Hadjichristos who showed them a demonstration of a Hyperion reactor. She reports:

We observed their fifth-generation apparatus being ramped up in minutes instead of taking hours or days to reach levels of heat output several times higher than equivalent energy input of electricity. If we had watched it longer, we may have seen even higher levels of more output than input.

Afterwards it was explained to me that the tested apparatus so far produces five kilowatts. The next prototype is expected to able to operate nine reactors working in parallel, creating a multireactor producing up to 45 kilowatts. The power of each reactor can be modulated to put out between one and five kilowatts by use of the control mechanism—electrical currents creating plasma.

All that’s needed to stop the reactor from producing excess heat energy is to switch off those currents that create plasma.

Manning reports that the DGT lab is going to be locked up soon as the company needs to meet development deadlines, and that they will be presenting a paper at the ICCF-18 conference and are “strongly considering” presenting audiovisual materials at National Instruments’ NI Week in August.

She had some discussion with the company about the Andrea Rossi and the E-Cat — of course DGT were at one time partners with Rossi. Hadjichristos says about the E-Cat “Unfortunately for him, it is not well designed to be controllable, so it was impossible to develop a technology around something that cannot be controlled.”
He explained that they decided to go their own way in working on a technology that was more easy to control and started by working on the control mechanism.

DGT is now using the term Heat Energy from Nuclei Interactions (HENI), rather the Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR) label as a way to avoid the negative attention of nuclear authorities.

  • Jordi Heguilor

    There’s a lot of (sometimes justified) talk about “patho-skeptics”, so I would like to give an example of “patho-believers”.

    In this thread, NOBODY has questioned whether Jeane Manning has or not the scientific expertise (plus the “stage-magic detection” expertise) to judge what’s going on at Defkalion.

    I can reproduce what she saw for 500 bucks.

    • Roger Bird

      Jordi, I have been conversing with you for quite a few times, and I have never even thought of you as a skeptopath. Don’t put on the shoe because it might fit. I invite real skeptics. I applaud their courage for being here.

      As for Jeane Manning, I guess that she just took them at their word. Not everyone is just like you, and vice versa, and it is a good thing. If everyone was just like Jeane, what a fix we would be in! If everyone was just like you, nothing would be ventured. When Rossi signs me up to receive 0.01% of his revenue stream, I’ll hire you to be my security officer.

      • Jordi Heguilor

        Roger, being a skeptic does not mean that you don’t believe in anything, but that you question the hard-to-believe. For example: I recently read in PESN an article (with pictures) about a guy who claimed to be ridding the sky above LA of chemtrails (another story) by riding his bicycle with a tubular pyramid strapped to it. That’s about as credible as I saying that by eating a “secret” mix of vegetables my farts will clear air pollution over Beijing.

        We have to separate the wheat from the chaff, Roger. When P&S announced cold fusion, I was thrilled. (I even made a little money on palladium futures.) But after that, it was a disappointment after another. The current High Priest, Rossi, already has an energy related scam under his belt.

        The fact is that perpetual motion and now free energy have a history of centuries (or millenia) of failures and not a single success. It seems to me that based on that the logical attitude to any new claim is to ask for impeccable proof. You may call it “being a skeptic”, I call it being reasonable.

        • Jordi Heguilor

          Sorry, P&F.

        • Roger Bird

          Jordi, there is clearly and distinctly a difference between the skeptopath and a skeptic. So stop putting that shoe on. The skeptopath won’t look at the evidence. A skeptic will. I admit that it seems difficult to believe, hard to believe, improbable. I don’t expect you to believe what your inner sense of truth doesn’t believe. I do expect you to look at the evidence and not call me bad names and mock me just because we don’t agree. Skeptopaths will call people bad names and mock them and not look at the evidence. I don’t recall (I don’t keep a record) you mocking people or calling them bad names and refusing to look at the evidence. The skeptic is a wise observer. The skeptopath is an ill person.

          • Jordi Heguilor

            Roger, would you mind quoting the part where I mock you?

            • Roger Bird

              Jordi, you are not reading carefully. I said that you did NOT mock me or anyone else as far as I could remember. And I hope that no one has mocked you; as far as I can see you don’t deserve mocking.

        • Roger Bird

          “I recently read in PESN an article (with pictures) about a guy who claimed to be ridding the sky above LA of chemtrails (another story) by riding his bicycle with a tubular pyramid strapped to it.” I guess the State of California was wise to not let him drive a car. This has got to be my favorite.

          Wouldn’t a tubular pyramid be a cone?

          • Jordi Heguilor

            No, a tubular pyramid is a pyramid made of tubes. Five sides. A cone has only two sides, one flat in the base, one curved above. (Don’t ask me for the precise definition, who am I, Gauss?)

            Roger, it is not my intention to antagonize you, but I believe that it’s not wrong to point at discrepancies. Whether you change your mind or not, it’s your choice, but hearing both sides is a good exercise.

    • AlainCo

      I agree that she give no evidence, she just synthetize and report.
      Don’t expect more from a journalist, especially in non-LENR subject. Even when they call evidence is often just witness report.

      If you need evidence by someone who is competent, made the experiments, and played with the baby, ask Nelson of NASA:
      http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?686-Defkalion-GT-announces-test-results&p=2583&viewfull=1#post2583

      his report is not as precise as the one of Elforsk, but he claim much more freedom to test than with e-cat. Result is modest (COP3) but with good reason to be so (lower temperature than normal)…

  • FredSykes

    It’s now more than two years since people first claimed to have LENR mastered. It doesn’t normally take this long to bring a product to market. What evidence is there that anyone has made any progress whatsoever towards that goal in the past 2 years? Nothing much seems to have changed. The crude demonstration units are still crude. Where are the proper prototype units needed for things like UL/FCC approval? Even long awaited “independant” tests appear to be anything but and fail peer review in hours.

    Even if some of these tests are taken on face value it’s questionable if they will lead to useful product. For example a Ground Source Heat Pump has quite a good COP and appears to have lower running costs than a hot-cat.

    • Roger Bird

      Gee, lets see, Fred. A new heat source, first time in the history of the world. A heat source not understood. What a bunch of dummies! I guess they are just sitting around playing poker and listening to soccer games. Or, just to keep Occam happy, you don’t know what you are talking about.

  • rolando

    Even an empty box will drive prices down so keep it up DGT

    Andrea Rossi
    June 2nd, 2013 at 2:23 AM
    Dear Steven N. Karels:
    Theoretically there are not limits in this sense, but there are considerations connected with the intellectual property that limits the convenience of these “mini”Cats. Think, for example, to the Clowns who are saying that they have been able to steal our technology: today they have a mock up, an empty box waiting ( from us) for real technology to be filled with. Should they be able to buy for small money a device, the day after they could announce a real test, made by an indipendent party, and they are just a paradigm of a crowd like them. We will put in the market small devices only after we will be able to produce in mass quantity, to gain a competitivity enough to forbid a steal of IP. This issue is bound to the certification process: with a certification process done, we can robotize the production, prices will be unsustainable for wide competition, we will be able to get a strong share of the market: after that, even if unavoidably the competition will be born, our efforts will have been prized adequately.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • wolfgang gaerber

      There are multiple ways to skin a cat.
      If I take both statements and divide it by two – we might have some truth.

      • Allan Shura

        True enough.

        To the downside of the patent system as it has evolved with
        legal encroachments it now has become as much a disincentive to new innovation when the original mandate was to protect
        to encourage and foster innovation.

        In any case a patent protects the specific implementation
        or innovative design component not the natural or physical phenomenon itself.

        If I was a god or king I could patent air and charge a breathing tax.

        Sadly the system has been abused to the point of patenting
        biology and software defeating the stated purpose.

        If the hyperion is identical to the e-cat then Rossi has a
        point. He may be narrowing the point to the identical construction and composition of the “black box” who knows.

        Rossi seems to indicate that his strategy is to be the top
        of the heap in market domination from the start and to be
        so far ahead that competition is evaporated from day one.

        There is a risk if the competition brings a small practical
        device to be available first.

  • zvidenyosef

    “If we had watched it longer, we may have seen even higher levels of more output than input”

    What prevented you from watching it longer? This means you have not observed any excess heat from the Defkalion device, except the excess hot air from all their empty talk.

    • guga

      I was confused by this sentence at first too. But read it together with the sentence before again:
      “We observed their fifth-generation apparatus being ramped up in minutes instead of taking hours or days to reach levels of heat output several times higher than equivalent energy input of electricity. If we had watched it longer, we may have seen even higher levels of more output than input.”

      What she says is there was several times more energy output than input after a few minutes, and the COP may have increased further over time.

  • Roger Bird

    Help! I am trying to log into Rossi’s Journal of Nuclear Physics. He told me to register and log in. I am registered and I am at the “Dashboard”. But I get this message: “Virus suspected: The daily antivirus scan of your blog suggests alarm. Manual scan →” along with the rest of the Dashboard. I have no viruses because I am using Linux Mint 13 as my operating system. I think that this message applies to the blog, not to me.

    Aside from that, I cannot find a way to do anything from the Dashboard. I cannot read JONP comments except the very first line or so, and I cannot leave messages. Help!

    I asked him via his [email protected] email address, but he has not gotten back to me for a long time. What do I do? Can I use the Dashboard if my operating system is non-standard? Any thoughts would help.

  • Roger Bird

    I ask you skeptics: Let us say, just for the sake of illustration, that the E-Cat were real. Or, let us say that any paradigm shifting science and technology were real. Paradigm shifting. That is important. What would a paradigm shifter look like. Would it be created by someone smack dab in the middle of the established science community? Sometimes that happens. The idea of unleashing the energy in the atom for perhaps bomb production was invented by Leo Szilard; he even went to consult with Einstein. It doesn’t get any more mainstream than that. But many more paradigm shifting ideas and developments were NOT started by people in the mainstream: heavier-than-air flight and the light bulb come to mind. And I am pretty sure the Madam Curie and the dude that discovered x-rays were ridiculed, by exactly people just exactly similar to patho-skeptics. (Not implying that skeptics ridicule people.) The Wright Brothers were bicycle mechanics and business people. In 1901, being a bicycle mechanic was closer to the leading edge than it is today. But it was a big jump from bike mechanic to heavier-than-air flight.

    Understand that when you appeal to mainstream theory and authority figures it means absolutely nothing to us believers. The only thing that counts is the evidence. The so-called Three Miracles is merely appealing to mainstream theory. Appealing to mainstream thought and even authority figures is not always wrong, but when credible people say that they have seen cold fusion, we say that we would like to hear more from those credible observers. And if we get enough credible observers saying that they have seen cold fusion, then we can sometimes become believers.

    Just how narrow does the incredulity gap have to get before you can step across it?

    • Alp

      Roger, I think the skeptics want a test done that does not involve Rossi, his lab and his friends. That’s what they seem to say. Then, maybe they would believe the ecat is real if it passed such a test. Or maybe if Rossi allowed a real customer to step forward and demonstrate how the megawatt plant actually makes a net surplus of energy. Hasn’t happened yet, has it?

      • Roger Bird

        Alp, I don’t blame real skeptics for wanting a truly independent test. They don’t know Rossi and LENR and LENR+ like we do, so it is more difficult for them to trust. However, Rossi isn’t going to do it until his secrets are secure.

        • Alp

          Well… how can Rossi sell his megawatt plants (and they have been for sale for more than a year) if he is worried about secrets? Can’t the customer just take one of the modules apart? Regardless of what agreements they sign?

  • LCD

    For some reason it’s interesting that outside of the competition angle, DGT claims stability issues for Rossi, even after the test report.

    • zvidenyosef

      The recent 3’rd party independent report was delayed, because the first test in November was unsuccessful because the reaction ran out of control and melted the tube. This sounds like a control problem.
      I do not doubt Rossi has a working apparatus, perhaps he did not include the safeguards in the test apparatus that he intends to include in the commercial version.

      • Omega Z

        It was a prototype in progress & had Rossi been present, the melt down likely would not have happened. He could have intervened.

        The testing Group didn’t have the knowledge or expertize to realize what was happening till to late.

        Being a prototype, As you note, It probably didn’t have the safeguards.

    • guga

      Well, it depends how you define stability issues. Rossis says the HotCat is active only 2/3 of the time, which seems to be necessary for stability. COPs are around 2 or 3 to 6.
      DGT had claimed a COP of 20-30, if I remember correctly. Their mode of activation is supposed to be very different from an ECat and maybe indeed more stable. We won´t be able to tell for sure before we don´t get more details about the mode of operation of both Rossi´s and DGT´s devices.

  • artefact

    Here is a link to the photo in the report in full size found on her Blog:

    http://changingpower.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/cropped-Defkalion-lab-apr26-courtesy-of-Defkalion.jpg

    • Omega Z

      This Pic is so clean & pristine it raises many questions.

    • Wes

      Impressive Vise.

      • Omega Z

        Looks as if it’s never been used as does everything in the picture. Zero Oil stains around the Vacuum pump. Never seen that before even with the filter screen attachment.

        • Ask Me

          I have an old vacuum pump that I have used for some LENR tests and it is as clean as that one even thou it has been in use for hundreds of hours.

          • Omega Z

            I’ve used many of them & all spit or form oil droplets from vapor that soon gets on everything. Unless of coarse you have an Employee who doesn’t maintain the Oil level. In Which case you soon purchase a new one.

            I’ve not only used them, but rebuilt a few including a couple claimed not capable of being rebuilt. Once you learn the internals of these pumps, you understand the Oil migration is the nature of the beast. They Vaporize Oil.

            This also applies to all Closed Systems. Refrigerators, Freezers, A/C home or automotive. Their all designed to allow the Oil to migrate back to the Pump. Otherwise the systems would slug up & compressors would burn up.

            And Make No Mistake- This Vacuum pump in the picture is a standard Refrigeration pump.

  • Roger Bird

    Timar, how are you any better or any different from anyone else? When you get slammed and crushed and cheated, how does that feel? My statements seem empty to you because you are shallow and unable to fathom the depths of your own being. Your concept of the mass of people is meaningless if every single one of them is not precious. Millions times zero is still zero. You don’t care about Andrea Rossi, so why don’t you email him and say so. Andrea Rossi is precious and has spent 10’s of thousands of hours working in hot Italy, and now you want to steal his accomplishment from him. I like many of your ideas, Timar, but I won’t be turning my back on you. You have no concern about other people. That is what morality is all about; caring about other people.

    • Timar

      OK, I’m going to write Andrea Rossi an email saying that I don’t care about him. I hope it won’t come as a shock to him! 😉

      Honestly, I don’t know what to reply – I’m really baffled that my comments have provoked such an emotional reaction on your side.

    • artefact

      I care about Rossi and I care about DGT. We need competition and it is unavoidable in the future. Rossi should of course get all the credits he deserves.

      • Roger Bird

        I agree with the thought that if Rossi hits the jackpot that his monetary rewards would be insignificant compared to his fame and reputation and social power.

        I don’t care much for Obama’s politics. I dislike his treatment of the Constitution, but I guarantee if he sent me an invitation to the White House I would be running out the door yelling to my wife, “I’ll see you in a couple of days.” And I would be respectful when I got there. To the guard, I would say, “The President invited me.” That is honestly what fame and social power will do for a person.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Truth about Defkalion….. The quote below is from the 11/29/2011 article in Ny Teknik written by Mats Lewan quoting Alexandros Xanthoulis, President of Defkalion :
        “- Let’s say I have Rossi’s formula, but I do not say it officially. My scientists have found a way to accomplish it. They need three months. I know what is in the reactor. I know everything. It was done with spectroscopy at Siena University of Padova (…) They tested the reactor without [Rossi] knew what they were doing, he continued.”

        • artefact

          DGT got it from someone from Siena University. I wonder who else got it from them…

          • Omega Z

            Maybe to add some clarity here.

            DGT claimed to have obtained Rossi’s secret. However they brought together researchers/scientists And developed their Own Technic by researching all existing information scoured from multiple sources. But they Used Rossi’s work as a guide.

            If so, My only complaint is the Underhanded way they went about it. They would in Fact Not exist if it weren’t for Rossi. DGT was brought to gather & created for the sole purpose of being Rossi’s Marketing Partner.

            Had they done this totally on their own without using Rossi’s work to get there, he probably wouldn’t hold a grudge against them.

            I recall long ago, a poster from Brazil discussing the technology with Rossi. Rossi Told this person that all the information he needed was Freely available in existing research to accomplish the technology. All that was required was a lot of work & Dedication to figure it out.

            Rossi wished this person well & Luck in his endeavors. So Rossi holds no Ill will towards his legitimate competitors, Only those who are underhanded in their approach as was DGT.

            I have no doubt that Rossi is Concerned for his Secrets (IP), But Very likely also understands that once the E-cat is available, Some Entity will reverse engineer it. NOT to steal his IP, but to use the knowledge obtained from it as a guide to develop their own unique system. It’s a Standard business practice. It Trims years off of development.

            • LCD

              Absolutely agree with the idea that once the basic secret is out it should not be very hard to develop different versions of the product to the point that it might be hard to defend any one patent.

              I don’t know how I feel about DGT allegedly learning the secret recipe so quickly, they had to have a major clue in that spectroscopic data. If they feel it was all them then let me take a look at the spectroscopic data and time me on how fast I figure it out.

            • Bernie Koppenhofer

              The spectroscopic data taken from Rossi E-Cat is Rossi’s Intellectual Property, plain and simple.

            • Timar

              That’s probably an accurate account of what happened. I have to add that when a year ago I participated in Defkalion’s now abolished forum, they always spoke very respectfully of Rossi. It gave me the impression that they honestly wished him to be successful on his own.

              • Omega Z

                I Agree Timar, I’ve heard very little disparagement from DGT other then Control issues.

                And the disparagement is on Rossi’s side & Justifiably so. No one takes well to betrayal of trust.

                • Timar

                  We just don’t know so we can’t judge it.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            DGT asked Rossi to demonstrate his E-Cat at Siena University for the purpose of entering into a distribution contract with Rossi. DGT said they stole his IP via spectroscopy during the demonstration.

      • Timar

        As well as all the other LENR researchers on which Rossis success builds upon and whose enduring and painstaking work probably won’t have any financial reward.

        As a matter of principle, there can never be real justice when it comes to the question who is to personally profit from scientific discoveries.

        • Timar

          Got stuck in moderation?

          • Roger Bird

            If you use the “G0D” word, expect to get hung-up in moderation. But sometimes I get hung-up just because I am so dang handsome and it is a Saturday.

            • Roger Bird

              I didn’t get hung-up that time because I used a zero in place of the ‘O’ in “G0D”.

            • Timar

              No, I didn’t use that word.

              I basically replied to what artefact wrote, that not only Rossi should get his credits but other LENR researchers too. There are many people in the field whose painstaking work over the last 24 years builds the basis for Rossis success. I added that this illustrates a fundamental problem with how the concept of intellectual property is realized in legislation – most discoveries build upon the work of others, yet only the person who is able to file a patent will reap the financial reward.

              • elasticbucket

                To the victor goes the spoils. To do otherwise is to disenfranchise discovery.

                • Timar

                  That’s a rather euphemistic variant of “the winner takes it all”. Well, it’s acceptable, as long as it drives innovation and thus serves society. I just wanted to remind us all that as a matter of principle, there is no real justice when it comes to matters of intellectual property. Hence my lack of moral outrage concerning the question whether Defkalion stole some secret from Rossi.

                • Omega Z

                  This is in response to Timar.

                  What DGT did is common practice in business. They did develop their own tecknic.

                  What’s Distasteful is how DGT did it. By befriending & obtaining info from within. A Betrayal of Trust.

              • Roger Bird

                With something like the E-Cat, success also depends a great deal on the success of those who are working in parallel with Rossi, not just before. If there weren’t lots of people replicating LENR and LENR+, then the believability of the E-Cat would be greatly reduced. And believability is everything. A venture capitalist wouldn’t visit Rossi if the VC thought that Rossi was all alone with LENR. By 2011, Rossi was no longer working from the work of other LENR explorers, but the existence of such LENR explorers most certainly encouraged people to look more closely at Rossi and his E-Cat. This is how “we” believed Rossi, to the extend that we did believe him.

              • AlainCo

                @omega z,
                breaking a promiss up to a point the other company will have to die, is not so kind. at least DGT di not kill Leonardo Corp…

                and what they steal is probably just the idea, and some useless detail… idea are public, like the papers they used…

                the fact that rossi steal also some of their ideas, before putting them out of business by changing his ideas, probably helped them feel more comfortable.

    • guga

      Roger, first of all, I doubt that it is proven that DGT stole IP from Rossi. Even if something like this was said in public, it may have been some strange marketing. You are not guilty before you are not proven guilty. Rossi can go to court if necessary.

      Besides, I think there are bigger moral problems in this world. Much bigger. I think that is also what Timar means. And I agree with him. I honour your opinion that any injustice is an injustice, no matter how small. But if you get so emotional about that topic, you should not be able to sleep for the rest of your life when you think about people being killed, being tortured, starving and other horrid things happening to them, because of the immoral decissions mainly people in the western countries take.

      • Omega Z

        guga

        DGT stated they stole Rossi’s work & How they did it. This is in fact not the Issue.

        It’s how they did it. A Betrayal of Trust which is a big issue. Left unchecked people will in time trust no one. A Big Issue. A recipe for the collapse of society.

        You Said-“people being killed, being tortured, starving and other horrid things happening to them, because of the immoral decissions mainly people in the western countries take.”

        These things happen before & in spite of Western Intervention & after we leave. Don’t blame the Western Countries for what was, is, & will be. This is just people using the Western Countries as a Scapegoat.

        The only issue here is that the West thinks they can actually change this. They Can’t. It is up to them to change. We can’t make them.
        We Can’t even Isolate ourselves from it.
        Problem for the Western Countries is it’s a no win situation. If they don’t intervene their condemned & attacked & if they Do intervene they are condemned & attacked. Even the simplest of intervention (Food & Medicine) will be abused by those we try to help suppressing their own people. THIS is NOT the Fault of Western Countries. Quit trying to pass the Blame.

        • Timar

          This is a pretty simple and convenient world view.

          If everybody would behave according to the moral codex everything would be fine. If it isn’t, it’s the people’s own fault. So you can relax and don’t have to struggle with all those annoying ethical dilemmas. Convenient indeed.

        • Roger Bird

          Yes, what guga said about Western countries may have been scapegoating. Human beings have a monopoly on good and evil. Western human beings will just have to wait in line like everyone else.

        • guga

          Even if somebody confesses a crime does not automatically mean he is really guilty. I have never heard that you don´t need a court ruling because a confession was made.

          We believe that we have high moral standards in the West. But if people are being killed by one of these countries, even without court rouling, you can´t blame anybody else.

          We are doing things like heavily supporting the export of our agricultural products, causing bankruptcy of small farmers in poor countries that can not compete, leading to even more poverty and hunger.

          I would never say you could blame the West for all the bad things happening in the world. But while we believe we have high moral standards, we not at all always act according to them, if it is not in our interest. This way we certainly cause a lot more suffering than was maybe caused by this potential industrial espionage.

  • Alp

    Defkalion and Rossi should make an appearance on the Shark Tank television program. That would give them a lot of publicity in a hurry and perhaps some substantial investments as well:

    http://abc.go.com/shows/shark-tank

    • Brian Jackson

      I would like to see that!

    • Roger Bird

      I love the Shark Tank television program. But I doubt if it would be a good venue. (1) none of the sharks have the training or the time to fully understand or test the phenomena. (2) I think that they are looking for consumer products, and I am not sure that LENR is ready for the Big Time like that, yet. If any of the sharks were savvy or did their homework, the first question that they would ask would be, “Do you have any safety certifications?” Rossi has no consumer certifications, yet. The second question would be, “Do you have a patent?” The sharks are not dummies. You only get rich by either inheriting it or earning it, and you can’t earn it by being a dummy.

  • Roger Bird

    Good article. I like how she says that Defkalion seeks to achieve by co-operation and not egos crashing against each other (my words). It sounds as though they may be ahead of Rossi. Their idea for a bunch of small HENI units working in concert is interesting.

    • Torbjörn Heibert

      Yes but when will any actor show evidence by the meaning of function?

      • Roger Bird

        We wait. Some not so patiently. Others just wait.

      • Zedshort

        Not sure I understood what you wrote. Did you mean to ask: “When will any investigator explain the process by which the E-Cat functions?”

        • Torbjörn Heibert

          I meant evidence for function, so the suspicions of a fraud will disapper. It’s been three years now from the day i first herd about Andrea Rossi….

          • Roger Bird

            I guarantee that there will be many people who disbelieve until Home Depot rolls out some home units, and even then, some people still don’t believe that Neil Armstrong stepped on to the Moon. In the 1970’s I had in my hand a book ready for retail sales that said basically that the Earth was hollow.

  • LENR.FTW

    Announcing a new web site for in-depth analysis of LENR issues:
    https://sites.google.com/site/lenrforthewin/

    The first article is “Are Low Energy Nuclear Reaction Devices Real?”
    https://sites.google.com/site/lenrforthewin/home/are-low-energy-nuclear-reaction-devices-real

    This is substantially the same document that appeared in this E-Cat World thread here:
    http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/05/rossi-no-longer-controls-e-cat-business/

    Just tweaked it a bit.

    I was encouraged by the feedback and as a result decided to give it its own home where a dedicated discussion could take place. I intend to evolve the document as more information becomes available and as I’m able to do more research. My hope is that it can be used as a resource for educating folks who haven’t been following this potentially epic story as closely as we all have for the past couple of years.

    The site is not meant as a competitor to this or other LENR news sites/forums, but a complementary one that focuses instead on deep-dives — more of a reference and resource than a site you’d visit daily to see what’s new. My goal is objective analysis. Believers and skeptics are both welcome to post their views (discussion available under posts in “Updates” section).

    • Roger Bird

      I really loved your article “Are Low Energy Nuclear Reaction Devices Real” I keep a link to it handy and give it to people when ever I don’t want to bother discussing it with them. Your articles covers most if not all of the bases I like to cover, and it does it better than I could. So I am looking forward to your website.

    • fortyniner

      Nice looking site, and well written material. Before the visitor numbers ramp up, why not get a ‘proper’ .org or.net domain and hosting though – the cost is insignificant if you shop around. Some pics would be good, too!

    • Stefan

      This is exactly what is needed and a very nice start.

      An important questions,

      Will the discussion forum be moderated, as you noted, a non moderated forums quickly becomes a mess. I recon that this can take quite a lot of energy and skill to realize, not sure about it technically, admin knows this much better Admin? I would also consider trying to understand the current state of established forums with a sane debate and perhaps use them more actively to e.g. start threads about missing or unclear facts in your write-up. But of cause on a meta level there is still a need for a forum.

      WDYT?

      • LENR.FTW

        Good points. Mostly what I think right now is that I’m having trouble embedding the Facebook gadget.

        Looks like the discussion feature will not be available until I figure out exactly how I want to do this. I don’t have the time to moderate so that’s a factor.

        People can use the “Contact” link to drop me an email if they have a specific point they wish to make for now.

        • Roger Bird

          LENR.FTW, I notice that the “point”s are much easier to read and see than are the “counter point”s. This shows a slight bias. You might want to clear that up.

          The problem is that clarity of thought is supposed to start out unbiased. It isn’t supposed to end up unbiased. Let’s say I put some hot peppers in my dog’s food. She goes to the bowl unbiased about whether there are hot peppers or not in her food. She doesn’t come away unbiased whether there are hot peppers in her food. In the same way, we approach Rossi and his E-Cat unbiased. But eventually, we should come away biased. If the E-Cat is real, we should come away biased in the direction of believing in the E-Cat. And vice versa.

          You have presented such a compelling case for and against the E-Cat that I come away for the E-Cat. You inadvertently biased me. This bias is not a bad thing, unless it turns out eventually that it was all untrue.

          If I tested the E-Cat with an unbiased attitude, that would be good, clarity of thought. If I came away from that test unbiased, I would be a complete fool. I should either have discovered that it was real or discovered that it was unreal. In either case, I would be biased.

          • LENR.FTW

            I made the counterpoints easier to read (but still distinct from the articles main thread). Thanks for the suggestion.

      • LENR.FTW

        I settled on using Google Groups open to all… at least for starters. We’ll see how that goes.

        https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!forum/lenrftw_arelowenergynuclearreactiondevicesreal

    • GreenWin

      I agree with fortyniner, looks good with important info. A .org or net domain would be more versatile. Visuals are very important. Thanks for helping build the cold fusion knowledge network.

    • tq

      “Starting with Pons and Fleischmann (P&F) in 1989”

      I am becoming ill of seeing how no one want to give credit to the real discoverers of LENR back in 1927. I have posted this before:

      “In 1927, Swedish scientist J. Tandberg stated that he had fused hydrogen into helium in an electrolytic cell with palladium electrodes. On the basis of his work, he applied for a Swedish patent for “a method to produce helium and useful reaction energy”. After deuterium was discovered in 1932, Tandberg continued his experiments with heavy water. Due to Paneth and Peters’s retraction, Tandberg’s patent application was eventually denied. His application for a patent in 1927 was denied as he could not explain the physical process.
      The final experiments made by Tandberg with heavy water were similar to the original experiment by Fleischmann and Pons. Fleischmann and Pons were not aware of Tandberg’s work”
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion#Before_the_Fleischmann.E2.80.93Pons_experiment

      • LENR.FTW

        Thanks. I’ll try to work that in somehow.

    • Shane D.

      LENR,

      Looks like MY will have to invent yet another pseudonym for your new board. He is up to 4 we think already.

      He seems to change style and personality (all extreme skeptic though) with each new alias so it will be interesting to see what shows up. Must be awfully hard to keep it all in the proper role play.

      • LENR.FTW

        All rational opinions are welcome. This is an all cards on the table web site. I want the best arguments the skeptics and believers can muster.

        If people just repeat themselves over and over I will just ignore them. The comments are not directly visible on the article itself so the payoff for trolling is not very high for the disinformation specialist.

  • Roger Bird

    Jeane Manning said: “Bottom line: a 45-watt Hyperion unit tested in Greece ran continuously for six months on less than three grams of powdered nickel and two liters of hydrogen.” I am pretty sure that she meant “45 kilowatt Hyperion”.

    • artefact

      yes, they planned a 45 kw since long.

    • Alp

      45 kilowatts for 6 months? Why didn’t they (or don’t they) show that to NASA? Or to someone who can be trusted to give an accurate report and a valid test?

      • Roger Bird

        NEVER, EVER trust someone who has money to gain from their self-reports.

      • fortyniner

        It’s far more likely that the original 45 Watt figure (which is copied elsewhere on the web) is correct. This was probably a test rig, not a power unit. Just dissipating 45kW would have been a problem unless a large industrial fan and a tall flue were available.

        • Alp

          My recollection from the now removed Defkalion forum which I followed in detail at the time is this:

          Defkalion wrote that the reactors varied in power from 5 to 45 *kilo*watts (definitely it was never “watts”). They were, in fact, cooled by a liquid (high temperature silicon oil if I remember right). The cooling system allowed for flow calorimetry at all times and the results were telemetered to the test intruments via a cell phone-like link. They claimed to have run these powerful reactors for months (and multiples of them at once) without the need to add any nickel or hydrogen (or anything else).

          Unfortunately, there is no independent corroboration that I am aware of so it’s based only on their word. But for sure it was kilowatts, not watts.

        • Roger Bird

          Unless of course the 45 kW heater is in the NorthWest, and then all one has to do is open a couple of sliding doors.

  • Sanjeev

    Good write up, but, it seems, DGT is now hiding the fact that they got the tech from Rossi. The article makes it appear as if they independently discovered it by long and tedious experimentation.

    It also mentions plasma, which is a new thing for me.

    • fortyniner

      It seems that this (plasma generated by modified spark plugs) was how they got around the need for a catalyst to split H2 molecules. They must have failed to find out what Rossi used for this purpose, while they were getting what they could from a ‘borrowed’ e-cat.

      • Bob Greenyer

        This I believe was based on old Japanese CMNS/LENR research, using glow discharge – like he said, he trawled the published papers.

        Plasma is what you use in Mizuno type also – the writing is on the wall.

        When you know that nickel sintering is a major problem, their next innovation is fairly obvious, to make an open cell nano foam of the the nickel, sort of like a neural net. The same mass of Ni occupies a larger volume as occurs in other powder cells, but the beauty is (as I see it) it allows the ionised/Rydberg state H to to permeate freely through the active material. The other great thing is that you can heat the cell rapidly with a glow discharge to reach the critical temperatures and material phonon resonance targets. It also rapidly changes pressure, temperature, electrical etc – couple that with a targeted RF and you have lots of easy on and off-able tech to CONTROL the reaction.

        The last and for me the key point is that when you find what kicks it off, you can hit it HARD. Why can you do that? Well, because the active nodules in the neural net type open cell nano foam are suspended from each other, if one goes all thermal run-away, it doesn’t take the whole mass with it.

        That is why this approach rocks, but it is mostly an observation of published papers coupled with a group of people having the guts to put it together.

        Good luck to them!

        • fortyniner

          ‘Raney’ nickel used in many catalysed reactions would have been a good starting point I imagine.

          Re. RF (or an oscillating EM field) this would have a magnetostrictive effect that would cause micro-distortions in a nickel matrix, perhaps allowing interstitial H atoms to be ‘crushed’ between Ni nuclei as they close up following movement apart. Perhaps such forces generated between adjacent Ni nuclei might counteract Coulomb repulsion to some degree?

          An AC or ‘chopped’ square wave current flow directly through the nickel (a la Patterson cell) might have a similar effect.

          • Bob Greenyer

            In a conversation with Celani this week, he said – switch the polarity on the wires, it improves the effect. Effectively an “alternating DC” – something about electron migration and thermal gradients. Other research have signalled that the rising edge of a change is important.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Plasma generated by modified spark plugs. Interesting, it has something in common with Papp type engines.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Oh – and Pap engine has a thorium source, just like the rods in Mizuno.

          Even Celani’s first wires had 50 layers of Thorium salts.

          Seeing a pattern?

      • LCD

        I think they use nickel fluoride as their host material. It’s the only thing that explains the rutile form of their crystal and conforms with new data.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      +1

  • Jerry Jones

    Defkalion really has not shown Real Scientist a working reactor, they have not let anyone close to the reactors after all that’s how they came to have what they believe is the secret sauce to make cold fusion, nothing new here for now.

    • Shane D.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S8gfxjBfh0

      Michael Nelson, a NASA scientist, was contracted to evaluate the DGT hyperion 1 1/2 years ago. Nelson had also been a former critic of Rossi I believe.

      Nelson seemed very impressed by what he saw. There was a good discussion on ECNs last october about his report, but ECW doesn’t appear to allow cut/paste from there.

      You can find it easily yourself. Point is that DGT did have an evaluation of their product by a scientist. Now, like all these reports, the skeptics have a jolly old time nit-picking them to death… as they did with Nelsons.

      But on the whole, adding Nelsons observations to those reports from Rossi and Brillouin, there is some room for us believers to take heart that the industrial grade LENR reactions are real.

      • Timar

        Exactly! It is the cumulative evidence from these three independent entities that leaves little room for reasonable doubt about the reality of LENR+.

        Even if Rossi was the ingenious illusionist proclaimed by the skeptics, there are still Brillouins claims backed by McKubre and Defkalions claims backed by Nelson.

        Add that to the 24 years of evidence for LENR in general and you what is going on. Either that or you are on the patho-side.

        • GreenWin

          “… the ingenious illusionist proclaimed by the skeptics…”

          There are MAYBE 5-6 skeps trying to sell this bunk. The most desperate is Kirvit, who is personally enraged by Rossi’s success. The other skeps are MaryYugo, Joshua Cude, and their many pseudonym avatars.

          • Timar

            Add Ekström, Guglielmi, Motl, Siegel and all the other mouthy academic scientists caught up in their paradigms.

            • Karl

              Add the main debunkers of Cold Fusion Robert Park and John R. Huizinga…

              • LCD

                Huizinga?

                • GreenWin

                  Huizenga, a purported “scientist” who headed the DOE debunk panel in 1989; also wrote the fiction novel “Cold Fusion: The Scientific Fiasco” A crank IMO.

  • Hurley

    So are they producing electricity or talking thermal equivalent?

    • Bruce Fast

      They produce heat, not electricity.

  • Felix Fervens

    >they will be presenting a paper at the ICCF-18 conference and are “strongly considering” presenting audiovisual materials at National Instruments’ NI Week in August.

    Papers and AV presentations talk–honest, accessible, interactive public demos walk.

  • Thinks4Self

    WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO:
    Form a National Commission to research LENR energy production from devices such as Andrea Rossi’s ECAT.

    For the last 57 years we have spent an average $393 million a year on hot fusion research for a total of over $22 billion dollars and have yet to develop anything useful for the average citizen.

    In contrast in the 24 years since the announcement of the discovery of Low Energy Reactions by Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann we have spent far less than 1% of the total spent on hot fusion even with very promising results shown by our own SPAWAR Naval research lab.

    Current evidence points to a real effect that could provide all the energy we need. Many prestigious research labs have shown research evidence that LENR reactions are real even with the shoestring budgets put forth to study the field.

    It is time for the United States to put serious effort and research into the field of LENR.

    Sign the petition if you agree: http://wh.gov/SyJC

    Before Bruce Fast jumps in and says “No don’t do it!” I want to remind everyone that the people of the United States can and do make things happen when the government doesn’t want to change the status quo. You need not look any further than Colorado’s and Washington’s stand on cannabis. They have begun the reversal of almost a hundred years of dogma and propaganda. When the people know the truth they are capable of making things happen.

    • Timar

      It’s an honorable but useless effort. I can tell you for sure that petitions like this won’t have an (E-)Cat in hell’s chance to get the necessary number of petitioners. You’d be able to buy an E-Cat at Wal-Mart sooner than that.

      • GreenWin

        Although laudable, time for petitions to a political authority is past. They are paralyzed. Raising conscious acceptance and expectation for commercial products is far more effective now. Thoughtful support for Rossi and team is the best path for manifesting E-Cat power generation.

        It is already working.

        • Roger Bird

          I agree GreenWin and Timar. Petitioning the government is useless. I just hope that they stay out of the way. Government people are by definition (to get elected) dependent thinkers. Right now, LENR is strictly for independent thinkers.

          Recently, a government wonk wanted my opinion and experience on a well established matter, something to do with Obamacare and civil rights. I have sent them material about LENR; I can assure you that I got no response. Because LENR is not a well established fact. They wouldn’t touch it with a 10 foot poll.

      • Omega Z

        Note:

        Once E-cats are to market,
        The Government will start a LENR Research project. 50 years & 50 billion dollars latter it will produce a Scientific study as how it works.
        Or Not- May take another 20 years. LOL

        • Roger Bird

          The government may fall or be greatly diminished by that time.

  • Roger Bird

    I sent this email to my dear sister-in-law. She is very trusting of me, and hopefully not very trusting of other people:

    Dear Nennette,

    I believe that that [buying stock in the E-Cat] would be a very good buy. And I thank you for reminding me that I could do that also. But Rossi’s personal company “Leonardo” is privately owned, by him and perhaps a few of his friends. And the “Partner”, his mysterious company that is providing funding and business guidance, is, well, a mystery. So you have now no opportunity to invest in the E-Cat. Rossi will not accept money from the general public.

    This is extremely edgy, WAY, WAY, WAY beyond raw milk and acupuncture. This is out there with BigFoot and UFOs. So your having faith in me is extremely dear and flattering. The evidence is rock solid, but it is not even close to being accepted by the mainstream. The mainstream takes itself to be the standard and criterion, so anything outside of the mainstream is automatically “not true”, without people looking closely at the evidence and the credentials of the people who observed it.

    Sincerely,

    Roger

  • Blanco69

    ‘Strongly considering presenting AV material at NI Week in August’ Well that’s disappointing. To be fair, I’m not sure where the promised live demo chat came from. However, considering where Rossi is, I suspect that DGT will have to do more than simply strongly consider presenting something. They also maybe should have conceded that any controllability issues that Rossi may have had appear to have been resolved. It’s an encouraging article none the less.

    • Hal

      The NI week demo was announced by DGT in an interview with Sterling in April(?). They also said about a year ago that we would be able to buy Hyperions by March of this year, now it seems they haven’t even built the 9 module prototype?
      I’m thinking they are having similar problems to Rossi, in that reliability and stability are still major hurdles. I now find it hard to believe we will see mass produced lenr/heni (DGT’s preferred name) systems in this decade. The revelation that the first module in Rossi’s tests melted probably cost 3 years alone in terms of safety certification

  • Karl

    Good news for all and it release focus from Rossi only. He can continue his important work. Let the competition start between different LENR vendors and conventional energy sources. The market potential is enormous.

    • khawk

      What does everyone make of this from a NY Teknik interview of Defkalion management in Aug 2011?

      ““Let’s say I have the formula of Rossi, but I’m not saying it officially. My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months.”

      That is what Alexandros Xanthoulis, representative of Defkalion Green Technology’s owners, told Ny Teknik in a telephone conversation on August 5, 2011.

      “I know what he’s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy made by the University of Siena Padua. (…) They tried his reactor without him understanding what they did,” he continued.

      UPDATED (Dec 1): Defkalion has clarified that it was the University of Padua, where an anaylis of used Nickel powder actually was performed, commissioned by Rossi./End update”

      • Timar

        Nothing. I really don’t care at all whether they “stole” the formula from Rossi or not. They seem to have developed a very different and elaborated technology since they broke up and that’s a good thing. The more players – the more different mindsets, technological approaches and business strategies – are in this game, the better for us all.

        • khawk

          Wow – in a world where you can steal without consequences (if that is what happened here) then the incentive to commercialize will never manifest. Since their management had no problem discussing the theft in an interview, should Defkalion be allowed to keep their differentiating designs proprietary or do you think that it is okay for others to “borrow” as well?

          • Timar

            Considering this technology’s significance for the world at large, I simply don’t care about such petty morals. If they stole it from Rossi, it is up to him and his partners to drag them to court.

            • Roger Bird

              Petty morals!?!? You are a moral retard. “petty morals” is an oxymoron. You want to start out the New Humanity screwing some hardworking guy out of his just rewards. You count what is important by how it affects the masses, and you kill your own heart by doing so. I am happy to be patient.

              • Timar

                You may be happy to be patient, because you are a first world puppy. There are hundreds of thousands of people dying each year because they don’t have access to fresh water. How many of them outweight your moral objections?

                Rossi doesn’t need us to whine for him. He neither needs our compassion nor our moral outrage. If Defkalion illegally acquired his intellectual property, he will be well able to claim his due.

                • Roger Bird

                  If you don’t care about every single individual, you don’t care about anyone.

                • Bob Thatcher

                  Don’t worry fellas. No need to get worked up. Both of these companies are frauds and neither will reach commercialization. Relax.

                • Timar

                  That’s empty moral rhetoric

                • Roger Bird

                  Bob Thatcher, don’t hold back. Imply what you really think.

                • Timar

                  Don’t feed the troll, Roger! 😉

                • Roger Bird

                  Bob Thatcher, apparently I am encouraging you by responding to you. But I can’t help but ask, does scamming include Brillouin, Dr. Brian Josephson, numerous other PhDs, etc. etc.

              • Barry

                Roger you might want to reread the posting rules of this site.

                • Roger Bird

                  Please, I am a slow reader. Please specify which rule I broke. If it is the “moral retard” part, I apologize. I got carried away with righteous indignation (which is just another excuse for anger.).

            • khawk

              Nothing else to say here – a stunning response. This standard for innovation might work well for monkeys with sticks after observing ardvark tongues but one cannot get much further than that.

              • Timar

                History doesn’t care for our moral conventions – an inconvenience that lies deep at the heart of ancient mythology. Prometheus actually stole the fire from the Gods.

                • Roger Bird

                  “History doesn’t care” is a really lame argument. History is just future people making moral decisions for you. How we treat others matters. How we treat Rossi matters a lot more because it will set a precedent for the LENR society to come. If we treat him honorably, then honorable behavior will become the norm in the LENR society. If we treat him dishonorably, then people will look back at what happened and say, “Well, they screwed Rossi over, what’s wrong if I screw my friends over?” “If it is OK to steal from Rossi, then why isn’t it OK to steal from my uncle.”

                • Timar

                  Once and for all: I haven’t said that is it morally OK! I’ve just said that the morals of property do not really interest me for that matter. I don’t care whether Defkalion stole the secret sauce from Rossi, as much as I don’t care whether you steal something from your uncle.

            • GreenWin

              One idea that may apply here is that it will take human materialism to quickly distribute this technology to emerging nations. That is, the capital/profit motive that drives Rossi’s R&D to successful manufacturing is instrumental now.

              Could other development groups move faster? Maybe. But IF the profit motive is diluted it deters investment and increases competitor’s sabotage (eg E-Cats are nuclear, and extremely dangerous.) All it takes is for one false flag explosion – just like the war on terr-or.

              • Timar

                You talk about it as if it were some niche market too small for several players! If there has ever been any market large enough for the principle of competition to live up to its full benefits it will be this!

          • Timar

            You have grossly misinterpreted my comment. I simply said that I don’t care – not that we should “live in a world where you can steal without consequences” – a grotesque idea. To the contrary I have said, that Rossi should rightfully drag them into court if they actually stole his secret. It’s just that I’m not the kind of person to whine about that.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Timar…..please re-think you stance, “I really don’t care at all whether they “stole” the formula from Rossi or not.” Protecting IP is one of the pillars of our free enterprise system.

          • Timar

            I think I can say I’ve thought about such questions rather profoundly (I attended quite a few university courses on ethics and moral theory) – and that I have come to the conclusion that the concept of intellectual property is more an ideological superstructure of capitalist ideology than it is a constitutive moral concept.

            Note that I don’t say we should give it up. It has no absolute validity on its own but it is useful, in Kant’s sense of a regulative idea.

            I don’t think that our current “free enterprise system” is the end of all human history, though.

            • Roger Bird

              Timar, and people’s sweat and hard work and incentive, how does that figure in your thinking? If people who work hard and create things are not justly compensated, who in the future will work hard and create things? How does that figure in your thinking.

              I got an accredited B.A. and an 81%ile in the GRE advanced test in philosophy after taking one introductory course in philosophy and reading only one book in philosophy. I think that that makes me a philosophical savant.

              • Timar

                I have never said that people who work hard shouldn’t be justly compensated. There are many ways to compensate and to motivate people. The concept of intellectual property within a free market society is only one of them.

                • Roger Bird

                  I’m sorry, Timar, I didn’t mean for my upset to upset you. Really. Now to agree with you:

                  “Evil is a good thing taken too far.” — Inayat Khan —

                  Private property, a good thing, can be taken too far, and it becomes evil. I tried to tell a dye in the wool libertarian (with sharp teeth) that, and she almost flipped out.

                  English landlords in the early 1800’s owning Irish land that they NEVER even visited, is taking private property too far.

                  There must balance in everything. It seems like Bill Gates, having so much “property”, only because he was the right smart guy at the right time at the right place, doesn’t seem altogether right for me. He is clueless when it comes to philanthropy and health. He has too much power and too little wisdom. Accumulate billions does not mean that one has wisdom.

                • Timar

                  No offense taken! I somehow managed to have caught you on the wrong foot yesterday 😉

                • Roger Bird

                  That was yesterday!!! How time crawls when you waiting for the birth of the New Age.

      • tq

        So just by spectroscopy they found the catalyzer and in a short time made a working unit.
        This means that they stole Rossi’s discovery, and that in 10 years we could be purchasing kits to make our own nuclear generators.

        • khawk

          Well that might go a long way towards explaining Rossi’s nervousness in testing with others aka..NASA. I think that it is a miracle that he has found investors and a company(s) that he has decided to trust. But then again, this is all appears to be a miracle anyway.

        • Omega Z

          tq

          It had better be an automated self assembling self installing system. Otherwise that kit may just set boxed up in a corner somewhere.

          Average age of skilled tradesman in the U.S. is now 58 years old & increasing fast. Rossi better hurry or we will have no one who can install an E-cat Let alone build one from a Kit.