Rossi No Longer Controls E-Cat Business

Indicating a shift in the commercial direction of the E-Cat, Andrea Rossi today said that he is no longer in control of the business side of his invention. Last year Rossi announced that he had entered into a partnership with an undisclosed American company and comments since then have indicated that he has sold both the IP to the company and R & D operations, and that his title is now Chief Scientist.

Today on the Journal of Nuclear Physics a reader asked a question regarding his current role:

As Chief Scientist, you don’t control anymore the business or you‘ve got any kind of influence on it?

Rossi responded:

I am more interested to the scientific and technological development, I will not have control upon the business.

It’s not clear what this shift in roles will mean. Rossi has said that he found a partner who “shared our philosophy”, so one would expect that the sale would not have gone forward if the partner had plans that were not in harmony with Rossi’s own. But once control is gone, I don’t know how it can be regained if Rossi becomes dissatisfied with the direction the partner is taking. I am sure that there was plenty of discussion of management issues before the deal was struck — Rossi spoke of a ‘mammoth’ contract being signed.

What this will mean for the future of the E-Cat is impossible to say. We may know more when we find out who the mystery partner is.

  • Zeus Einstein

    I’m with Jerry Pournelle:

    “I am willing to believe that low temperature fusion is possible. I am not willing to believe that if it is achieved it can be kept a secret and needs to be surrounded by hocus pocus, and alas, all the cases I have heard of turn out to have reasons why the press can’t take some meters and thermometers and go have a look…”

  • Ladis

    If Rossi started a fund-raise project offering the technology license to the public domain aganinst, say X $/EUR plus starting his own manufacture investment to be the first to go on the market he would get his share, I guess and a high reputation for this breakthrough.
    This game of mammoth contracts, ‘benevolence’ and ‘shared vision’, whatever, can be a trap to shift the technology to the sphere of big corporate interests, silently putting patents on parts of the technology, discrediting or delaying, and that even Rossi can not control anymore.
    I do not know what Rossi really wants to achieve – money? fame? – but this game is getting a bit overspeculated and may find himself between two chairs.
    Not speaking that if this is really working, we may find ourselves just waiting and waiting…

  • Alp

    I find it odd that Rossi doesn’t name the new company and its CEO or directors. It’s also odd that he doesn’t name his U.S. partner. Why should those be secret? His name, address and phone are not secrets and he gives interviews. Why not the companies and the partner?

    • khawk

      There is nothing odd at all about Rossi’s decision not to disclose who he is working with – the detractors have established that there is absolutely zero benefit to any further disclosure until everyone is ready to pull the curtain back. In my opinion, this project needs to go quiet for a season while any safety and commercialization issues are resolved.

      • Roger Bird

        I am pretty sure that Rossi won’t be sitting around watching the video feed during the 6 month test like the rest of us. He will be very busy.

      • Alp

        Well, khawk, if Rossi is in some sort of stealth mode, it seems odd that the new test would be publicized in Forbes and Wired and other places. In stealth mode, I would not expect all the previous demonstrations and tests and meetings about the ecat. I would not expect Roger Green would be selling distributorships. I would not think that Rossi would spend as much time and effort as he does answering questions and responding to comments on his web site/blog JONP!

        How do the detractors establish anything?

        How would they or could they possibly injure a big company which was working with Rossi, had bought Rossi, or was buying an ecat? After all, they can only post anonymously on forums and blogs. How does that hurt customers and big companies exactly? I don’t see it.

  • lenrdawn

    A little off-topic and most of you have probably already seen it and read the comments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovGXDDvc3ck

    (And before somebody calls me a tr011 again – no, I don’t say this proves anything either way).

    • Methusela

      It does prove that you are Maryyugo / Al Potenza though.

  • lenrdawn

    The “chief scientist” label first appeared in May 2010. In Feb. 2012, he said: “I AM THE CEO OF LEONARDO CORPORATION AND RECENTLY LEONARDO CORPORATION BECAME PROPERTY OF A TRUST OF INVESTORS TO THE ATTORNEYS OF WHICH I HAVE TO ANSWER.” So it stands to reason to assume that he wasn’t really in control of the business end for at least 15 months (or so he says).

  • Barry

    I hope the new company is a conscientious one. It does happen. A friend of mine works at Equal Exchange where they give the coffee farmers a fair price and the CEO of the 15 million $ company can not make more than 4 times the amount of the lowest paid worker. Or Tom’s of Maine, good to their employees and offer good products and make a profit besides. I can go on.
    Capitalism isn’t the evil genie Linda. It’s a tool. There is no tool that will keep greed in check. Corporations have to mature. It’s our present challenge of growth. Like the companies above, businesses have to wake to the idea you can help yourself, make a good product and help the greater good at the same time. It’s not that difficult.

    • Roger Bird

      Look at the ingredients of Tom’s of Maine. Then compare those ingredients to other toothpastes. They are no different. This is not because Tom’s of Maine are a bunch of greedy capitalists. This is because the government has such a strangle hold on toothpaste that innovation is very, very limited.

  • artefact
    • Gerrit

      clueless journalists.

      I like this one “In fact at one demonstration, he specifically disallowed a physicist from testing for the presence of gamma radiation”

      So Rossi disallowed the measurement of gamma, because he was afraid it would reveal a secret DC current ?

      • AB

        It’s referring to the Celani spectrometer story. Rossi disallowed use of a spectrometer, not radiation detection.

        But who cares about these articles, they spin their own story detached from reality to convey the message they want to give.

  • Gerrit

    interesting follow up on Guglielmi’s blog

    >>The only response for which Prof. Essén authorises publication is the following:

    “In the intervju I answered that there was no direct measurement of dc (since the clamps could not detec such). This was a bit hasty. In future I will not answer such technical questions without conferring with all coautors. After analysing what we checked and measured (which were many more variables that those from the clamps) we can definitely exclude dc-current. (This is what comes from being nice to journalists.)”<<

    So the testers are quite confident that if they have been had by Rossi, it is most likely not due a secret DC current.

    • evleer

      The sceptics and deniers will not take the tester’s word for it and I’m sure it will be addressed in the follow-up test.

      However, I find it fascinating to see how the report causes a stirr on both the Rossi-tifosi and the people who suppressed and buried Cold Fusion more than 20 years ago and now are scared to death to take the lid off the coffin and face their crime.

    • John L

      DC offset would be easily detected by that power analyzer meter.

  • Rene Vega

    I already had reservations about a short term domestic ecat when the certification process was suspended. My guess on an availability timeframe went from two years to five, and now with some dispassionate bottom line oriented Corp controlling the tech, I have revised my estimate to over ten years or much more. Industry will benefit with source generation costs dropping by 30% then little single percentage points from time to time just enough to attract customers at a rate equal to production rate. It is an old game after all.

    As for me, I already live off the grid with PV and backup genset. It is sad to see game over for domestic ecat for that would have been the true energy revolution.

    • fortyniner

      Unlimited, un-metered power generation outside the control of the energy cartels was always a non-starter. I think Rossi realised that quite early on, and has focused on what he probably sees as a ‘least worst’ option. At least that way, LENR will be allowed to develop within relatively narrow confines, with a chance that unpredictable events will allow it to break free some time in the future.

      The alternative was in all likelihood the same fate that befell quite a few inventors who threatened the profits of the energy/oil cartels, and the plans of the money elite.

      • Roger Bird

        10 or 20 years from now, there will be theatrical plays devoted to Rossi and the E-Cat. One act will be devoted to his first experience of massive excess heat. His character will give a soliloquy, a long soliloquy, about what it all means. I am sure that “he” will mention in his soliloquy that major moneyed interests will not be really happy about the E-Cat.

    • Udi

      Delaying the commercialization of the E-Cat will be very foolish on the investors side.
      As far as I know, they do not have a patent, and there are other groups working on LENR technology (e.g. Defkalyon).

      I believe they will start large scale production as soon as the are viable products to sell.

  • georgehants

    Another interesting discussion on the crimes of capitalism below, those protecting the status quo giving virtuly the same poor arguments as those saying Cold Fusion is impossible and things must stay the same.
    It may be useful to start looking at practical considerations such as the level of productivity today, meaning how many people would have to work to give the necessary needs and fair luxuries for all if money finance etc. where removed and the millions working in such areas put out of work and the labours remaining shared by all.
    With all the clever qualified people on page I would have thought that instead of arguing in pointless circles we would be inundated with good ideas of how to take a failed unequal system that has had it’s time and produce a new system with only the best from any other known system + innovation, so that the whole is better than it’s parts.

    • RenzoB

      George, perhaps I misunderstand your terms, if by “capitalism” you mean the crony corporatism with central banking and state issued fiat-money that in the last 100 years has gradually replaced the free market with central planning, a process that has greatly accelerated since the 70′ and is about to leave us in a heap of economic ruins, then I agree with you. This perverted system has sadly swallowed most of the advantages due to increased productivity. Without it we would be much better off and a single person working part-time could probably support a large family by now.
      I still like using the word “capitalism” for the “free market” tought its meaning has been abused, to me it simply means the economic growth due to savings and work.

      • georgehants

        RenzoB, A big subject that of course is very difficult to discuss on a comment page without reducing to clear individual points.
        I mean remove all money and finance, with all the ancillary false jobs created simply to maintain capitalism, about half the population would be out of work.
        Start everybody from the age of 16 with the right from then to death, of a home, food, warmth, fair basic luxuries etc.
        Retirement age would be about say 50, working hours would be much reduced, everybody works their allotted time at their level, those giving more to society with effort or innovation are rewarded more with points (money) for more luxuries etc, the ability to progress is maintained.
        No inherited wealth, every youngster starts from the same place and only their own efforts and abilities will lead to their acquiring more.
        Only the best and brightest go to the best schools, no privilege for the rich and powerful as today.
        It is recognised that those Wonderful people working at the basic level, Nurses, bricklayers, dustmen, etc. are the most important people in society and are given a good standard of living by right.
        Those few that choose to be lazy are just tolerated as now with the basic needs and necessary extras, T.V. etc.
        Only production matters and as Technology such as Cold Fusion develops many more will be out of work to enjoy life and help others.
        With no money a man or women like Rossi would be greatly rewarded (points) for their benefit to mankind, but their would be no secret to defend for money and power reasons, no patents etc. just released for all the Worlds scientists to improve and develop.

        • RenzoB

          But who will you grant those right? Who will produce the goods to redistribute? Who will decide? Sorry I don’t like such system at all, to me it smells of communism and will suffer the same fate. The world is a very complex system than no one can plan, no one can know all the details to manage it, no one can even try to do it without unintended consequences. Only liberty works because only individuals know what is better for themselves, and it is only proven way to provide the largest benefits for the largest number of people.
          I think money is not a bad thing at all if it were sound money. Today’s money is bad because it is created out of thin air by central planners, such fake money creates bubbles and speculations, it damages the economy by distorting the production chain with bad investments and it damages people by inflating their savings, it only helps the elite close to its production.
          A true free market requires some basic conditions:
          -Sound, apolitical and inelastic money
          -Free banking without subsides and bailouts
          -Rates of interest decided by the market
          -No restrictions for the movement of goods, services, people and capitals across borders
          These conditions have not been met for a long time.
          Whatever market we have today is neither “free” nor a “market”.

          Disclosure: I am a libertarian and I like the austrian school of economics. This is not the best place to discuss but I think I’ve managed to explain my point of view.

          • georgehants

            RenzoB, I think nothing can be more free, honest and fair than what I am suggesting.
            When you have thought a little more about the subject without a pre-concived bias we may talk some more.

          • fortyniner

            “A true free market..”

            Unfortunately a truly free market is also free to adopt conspiracy and corruption without constraint, so I would regard the concept as something of an oxymoron. However I agree with all your stated tenets, with the addition of transparent and rigidly enforced oversight by government (as in, to govern or regulate) – which of course results in a market that is not free, or at least not free to indulge in crony capitalism, usury, government malfeasance and all the other joys of the current system.

      • georgehants

        RenzoB, have replied, has gone to moderation.

      • AB

        Also neoliberalism which concentrates wealth in the hands of a few.

        • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

          Japan is now starting a massive experiment in Keynesian economics. I think Keynes coupled with Cold Fusion will put the economy to rights.

          • RenzoB

            you’re kidding, isn’t it? Keynes is one of the worst psychopaths of the XX° century and we have paid dearly for it. Japan’s experiment is already coming to a crash.
            My hope is that the Ecat could save us from some of the worst consequences.

            • h_corey

              Please explain.

          • Omega Z

            Keynesian economics is flawed as all economic theories are.
            Keys pumps money into the system(At the Top) in a manor that increases asset value & in the U.S. this has mostly increased Stock value.

            Apparently the Idea being if your assets increase you can borrow more for purchase power. More Debtor Society Economics.

            It neglects the fact that if you don’t have the income to repay said debt you can’t borrow & worse case lose everything.

            I can only imagine the Impact had just a fraction of the money pumped into the U.S. Economy had been from the Bottom up.

            Building/repairing Roads/Bridges Etc putting cash into the pockets of the people. And this money would retain Labor value. Not diluted value as the present scheme does. Artificially inflated values of assets. Or as I call Fictitious wealth.

    • Linda

      This blog really needs a Like button.

      • artefact

        there was one but that made the page vulnerable for dos attacks I think.

      • VitaminJL

        I like that comment.

    • AB

      Sadly many activities today don’t create anything concretely useful for society. A good portion marketing, patent trolls and the lawyers needed to fight them, high frequency trading, foreign military interventions, lobbying, etc.

      These exist not because they are useful for society but because of financial interests. In these cases, money is no longer a medium that promotes the health of the society but rather its dysfunction.

  • Miles

    One day in the near future, my dreams of living off the grid will come true.

    • b4FreeEnergy

      I’m dreaming the same dream but I start wondering if it will still happen inside this lifetime. If you see how money based our society is, chances are low that it will happen but I’m still dreaming and I have that little spot ready in my basement to put my own little energy cell! 🙂

      • Hampus

        you can live your dream right now if you like. Just buy a bunch of solar and wind turbines you will be fine. You have to really cut down on your energy usage, but its possible =)

        • b4FreeEnergy

          Solar panels seem to have the nasty habit that they only work when they are connected to the grid because they have to stay synchronized with the grid’s frequency to be able to deliver power to the grid.

          I guess it is technically not a problem to have them working when not connected to the grid but that’s not a standard configuration you normally can buy.

          Wind turbines are pretty expensive (as solar panels are too) and we’re not allowed to simply put them in our garden. At least not where I live.

          So yes it is maybe technically already possible to disconnect from the grid but it will be so expensive that you have to start wondering if it’s worth the effort. (Not to speak about the ugliness suddenly laying on the roof of your house)

          I’m open for suggestions though … 😉

  • lukedc

    It’s only a bit over a month till NI Week.
    Defkalion will have on display a functioning prototype reactor being monitored by NI techs.
    Come on Rossi, the field is catching up..

    • Gerrit

      and in July there will be the ICCF-18. I hope SKINR will present some very interesting research there.

    • Omega Z

      Isn’t that ICCF18 & NI-week later on.

    • Pedro

      And next week there’s the meeting at the European Union about the ‘Pons Fleischman Effect’ .

  • Roger Bird

    Since there are already well known companies knocking on the door of commercial LENR, Rossi and his partner company would be extremely foolish to follow Linda’s melodramatic and Marxist inspired vision of their company keeping all of the goodies to themselves. And I listen to free music ALL DAY LONG, and it is not pirated. It is as free as the birds, as they say, on YouTube and probably elsewhere. So Linda’s foolish melodrama isn’t even based upon reality.

  • Roger Bird

    Linda is being way toooooooooo melodramatic. If she wants an E-Cat, she should round up some support, an open source group, and make an E-Cat and stop playing the victim.

  • GreenWin

    For those interested in the underlying process of LENR, Dr. Stoyan Sarg has published a new overview. He believes it IS COLD FUSION:

    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2013/05/27/structural-physics-of-nuclear-fusion/

    • Roger Bird

      Interesting. Some guy named Roberts if I remember correctly has been proposing a key-ring atom model, which is very similar to this.

    • Karl

      I’m busy studying the Sarg BSM-SG theories by Sarg. In the BSM-SG theories major enigmas in current theories in micro and macro space is possible to explain. I think it is a good idea to take the BSM-SG theories serious as it may be a way to finally create a model of how and why Cold Fusion works.

  • Roger Bird

    I have started a quick and easy piece to drop in the comments section of news articles. If you have any suggestions, please comment. Thank you.

    LENR and Rossi’s E-Cat have been proven:

    http://phys.org/news/2013-05-rossi-e-cat-energy-density-higher.html

    http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913

    One tester, Hanno Essen, was the former chairman of the Swedish Skeptics society.

    http://www.mech.kth.se/~hanno/

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/05/hanno-essen-on-3rd-party-tests/

    Another tester has made comments here:

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/05/e-cat-tester-torbjorn-hartman-commments-on-current-measurement-in-3rd-party-report/

    Elforsk (Swedish for “Electricity Research”) happily admits on their site that they paid for the tests and are happy with the results.

    There is MUCH more, but this is a quick and easy LENR\E-Cat 101.

  • Roger Bird

    Control? “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn.” “Control. Control. We don’t need not stinking control!” It is perfectly normal for the genius inventor to be terrible at business. Some dude said that every successful business had to have (1) a developer, inventor, etc., (2) a marketing dude or dudette, (3) someone to keep track of the money, and those people must be separate people. I am glad that Rossi found someone to help him. I am sure that they all have the same goal. Save the human race and make a ton of diamonds (a ton of gold is only $54 million roughly) in the process.

    To tell you the truth, I don’t have much faith in an open source means of developing LENR. When Rossi and company are making lots of money, I would be happy to see open sourcing trying to figure out how it works and improve it. And I certainly don’t have a problem with them trying to do it now. But Rossi has the ball, and I am going to cheer him on.

  • evleer

    The testers indirectly measured the weight of the active charge to be about 0.3 g. That sounds like very little to fill a (estimated) space of more than 100 cm3. Since the charge is supposedly a mixture of nano-nickelparticles and hydrogen, how is the distribution of those particles inside the cilinder? I guess an even distribution inside the cilinder space, or having them float around would be best. Maybe even necessary to control the reaction. Could the trade secret waveform that Rossi is supposedly applying have anything to do with the spacial distribution of the nano particles? Just a thought.

    • Roger Bird

      The wave form may have to do with the size of particles.

  • Barry

    Testing aside, An American company did their own test the end of April, packed up an Ecat container and shipped it to the U.S. So we are told, and all the indications are pointing to this being true. We well soon hear details.
    I’m glad Rossi is involving a partner. We can’t expect him to make one Ecat at a time watching over every angle of the business. With the emergence of a company perhaps he won’t get individually attacked as often. Perhaps a company can better handle individuals legally who blatantly call Rossi a fraud and that he’s perpetuating a hoax, which as far as I know is libel and subject to a lawsuit. They tried that at MIT with MF then did some major backpedaling to legally save their rear end.
    Hope it’s a good company.

    • Joe Shea

      I bet we’ll never see another E Cat. This is what always happens. Ket’s move on to Brillouin until they sell out.

      • lukedc

        Don’t be pessimistic.
        Once the Chinese get their hands on the catalyst expect an avalanche of product clones on the market.

      • Roger Bird

        What is “Ket’s”?

        • Pedro

          Let’s?

      • Barry

        Joe, I don’t believe $ is Rossi’s prime motivator or that he would sign a deal with a company that will bury the Cat.

  • Kim

    I can say this.

    If the IP is in the hands of Big Money
    then they have to be able to make money
    quickly and in large amounts or…

    They will shelve it.

    Respect
    Kim

    • Mcloki

      Someone else will replicate it. The cats out of the bag.

  • Kommisar

    Assuming that Rossi’s story is true, then the U.S. patent assignment records must reveal, in short order, the owner of Rossi’s patents and applications.

  • LENR.FTW

    Are Low Energy Nuclear Reaction Devices Real?
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JkYKd3Ipwz64ZuHzbdSdayk26VxOcQIo4K8E3t1Fmqs/edit?usp=sharing

    A draft white paper open for comments. I wrote this paper for my own reasons but have decided to share it and see if this community can help strengthen it. This is the only place it is posted for now. Maybe at some point after a few iterations of merciless criticism and revision I’ll attempt a wider circulation in the hope of educating the masses.

    You may use its content for any purpose that is not commercial in nature.

    • http://www.e-catworld.com admin

      Thanks very much! On a quick glance through this looks very well done. Great that you could share it with us.

      • kasom

        It is indeed very good!

        @admin don’t forget to give LENR.FTW’s work a permanent link!

    • GreenWin

      This is excellent. I would suggest including the names and titles of some of those who support LENR in major organizations e.g. Dr. Dennis Bushnell, Chief Scientist NASA Langley Research Center, Dr. Sven Kullander, fellow Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, Chairman RSAS Energy Committee, Professor Emeritus high energy physics Uppsala University, etc.

      These highly credentialed scientists have been courageous in speaking out for LENR and LENR+ and go very far to proving this to be an entirely new form of clean, abundant energy.

      • LENR.FTW

        Thank you. Will do.

    • Owen

      I give it a big thumbs up. There are a handful of minor typos. Over all it’s an excellent introduction to LENR.

    • Simon Derricutt

      LENR.FTW – Thanks for the thoughtful writing, and the points and counterpoints dotted throughout are useful. For a long time I’ve thought that Rossi had a reaction he couldn’t reliably start or control, but was indeed real. It looks to me that through working at experiments he’s now progressed to being secure enough about both aspects to allow a believable third-party test, and that that test (though not without some flaws) was good enough that, unless you postulate widespread and knowing fraud, for anything other than LENR most people should accept that the effect is real.

      While there is no good theory as to why it happens, it’s hard to optimise a process, so we should really expect things to have setbacks and take longer than planned. Until the process is proved to work by having a commercially-available product, it looks unlikely that many scientists will risk their reputations working on a theory – catch 22. I suspect that Rossi has not yet found the ideal method but has found a method, and that in the future there will be far better ways of achieving cheap and safe nuclear energy. When either Rossi or Defkalion start selling devices, that will be the kick-start for a whole lot of research to find those better ways.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Absolutely excellent.

      This I can use to convince people to take LENR seriously. It is wel written and has logically derived at conclusions. One can see that you have spend many an evening writing this and the result is excellent.

      Thanks for the effort. It was a pleasure to read.

      • Barry

        Thanks LENR FTW.

    • Tappanjack

      Excellent synopsis and a great read. Thanks!

    • Jjaroslav

      So well written it deserves to be published…..All the screwy comments about burying the technology ignore the fact that the world now is in the throes of becoming entirely open sourced and its primary modus, the Internet, is gradually making the concept of secret obsolete. After that its only an issue of timing and we see logarithmic effects there.
      Thank you LENR.FTW

    • LENR.FTW

      Thanks all for the positive feedback!

      I will be working on a second draft that will include:
      * more information about Defkalion
      * more discussion about gamma radiation <=== Call for info: anybody with links discussing gamma radiation in connection with the E-Cat please help! I recall Rossi saying something about gammas at one point but I'm having trouble finding the comment(s).
      * some more information in the stakeholders section
      * perhaps a stab at exploring the "would be easy to prove if he wanted to" and greed vs. altruism memes
      * I'd like to add a link to the (crude) product acceptance test sheet that Fioravanti signed; anybody have a link to that PDF?

      Also, one person added a general comment to the paper, but the thing is set up on Google Docs so that you can insert comments at specific places in the document. I was hoping people would add these types of comments to help me strengthen it. "This needs more info" comments or "I don't understand this" comments, for example. Or best case, people adding their expertise or insider knowledge. I was even hoping the ultraskeps would descend and challenge the paper's arguments so that they could be refined.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        This would probably deserve it’s own topic so that everyone can evaluate and possibly participate in your idea.

        Maybe Frank could set this up?

        • LENR.FTW

          Given all the encouragement I’ve decided to publish it separately as a web page. It’ll take a little while to set up.

          This will allow direct discussion and others to reliably link to it.

          I’ll link to it in a post on this site when it’s ready and admin can call attention to it if he chooses.

  • Jim

    jimr’s earlier comment about “two years” prompted me to ask “what are the major activities and durations that it would take to bring a new boiler heater to market?”

    I’m assuming that
    > industrial boiler heaters are modular
    > the heating elements can be swapped in and out for maintenance
    > the industrial hot cat is being designed to fit into existing boiler systems (i.e. those already on the market and/or installed) without extensive retrofitting (i.e. boiler makers are not being asked to redesign their products for e-Cats).

    Industrial boiler heating elements seem to look like the “tiger” (i.e. a tube):

    http://www.google.com/search?q=industrial+boiler+heating+element&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=2dajUeDaJuSRiQLby4DICA&sqi=2&ved=0CGYQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=653

    There’s a reasonably large existing market, US alone:

    http://www1.eere.energy.gov/manufacturing/distributedenergy/pdfs/characterization_industrial_commerical_boiler_population.pdf

    Major component development tracks would seem to be:

    > Mounting devices (big flange with big bolts)
    > External heat transfer cylinder (the outside cylinder that’s in the water)
    > e-Cat proprietary heating device (the stuff that goes inside)
    —> Mouse
    —> Cat
    > Control systems

    So, from just an industrial design and engineering perspective, I’m not seeing why it would take 2 years to get early versions of this into a early adopter market of say a dozen or more units, with incentives to accept the early product and contracts to upgrade.

    Am I missing something?

    • Linda

      Yes Jim, you’re missing the Big Picture.

      • Jim

        And the Big Picture is…?

      • Jim

        How about I amend my last question: Am I missing something relevant to the content of my post?

        • Kim

          I think your estimations are correct
          as far as Retro Fitting to existing
          boilers.

          I worked for a company in Tucson
          arizona that made Hot water on Demand.

          Using a natural gas flame thrower
          as water came raining down from
          a stainless steel tank.

          Hot water for Hospitals, and Laundries ect…

          Very efficient.

          He will be out of business soon.

          I see big business with pools and
          hot tubs. I think that its a natural for
          the E-cat

          Hotels will be able to advertise heated
          all year round swimming facilities

          Respect
          Kim

          • psi

            Respect, Kim. : )

      • Woo

        funny 🙂

    • Omega Z

      Jim

      Sorry, But 2 years would be like Light Speed.
      The Boilers may be similar, but they will be purpose built for the heat source. Then most likely tweaked. The same process for Turbines. They’ll find the best match for a prototype then work on specifics.

      I would be surprised if just 1 working prototypes is built by the End of 2013 that generates Electricity. At Present, Even the Hot-Cat itself is still in R&D.

      Even when the 1st complete system is market ready, It’s very likely that they wouldn’t produce more then a 100 small systems a year for the 1st 2 years or so.

      Can you even imagine if they were producing 1000’s a year only to find there was a major flaw. Something they didn’t discover during development. Shutting them all down for recall. It would create economic shocks & very likely break the Manufacturer.

      I strongly believe this will be a gradual roll out. Not likely to accelerate for at least 5 years. There’s just way to many unknowns at this time And Only Time will provide the answers.

      Whats important tho, is getting that 1st one done & operational. The Roll Out Clock doesn’t really even start till then.

      • Jim

        Thanks for that perspective. Those are strong analytic points. And when I think about heavy industrial equipment, operating in intense physical conditions, and on which a great deal depends, yes, I can see the timelines extending.

        The net of that though is that because:
        > Rossi is focusing in this space, and
        > that’s the likely timeline for commercialization, and
        > the commercial partner probably has limited interest in publicity,

        then it may be that the “interesting” revelations for the next year or so are likely to come from more experiments, as opposed to commercial product releases.

        Sobering thought.

        • Omega Z

          Just keep in mind I could be wrong.
          The 3rd party report showed up a month plus earlier then I expected.

          And though Rossi tends to be overly optimistic on timeline, You never know when things may just start falling into place.

          It’s that Murphy Guy. Have to keep an eye out for him. Always throwing a wrench into the Works. 🙂

        • GreenWin

          Jim, thanks for your overview of commercial applications for even the early versions of E-CATHT. You have not missed much except for the politics which are just now beginning to rear. Making a demonstration hot water “heater” would be a simple engineering task. Although governing the HotCat might take some special efforts – certainly an old version E-CAT will work.

          The big industrial picture will change when Rossi’s commercial partner goes public and discusses their vision for Distributed Energy Resources. We will have a better idea of how this will go when the first electric generator is up and running. I expect that by year end.

  • Linda

    So, now a giant company that can drop $100 million on something as risky as the eCat actually owns the technology. Well, it’s game over really.

    What are WE doing here? Are we waiting for this giant company, which is obviously a player in the energy space to just start selling us free energy devices?

    Wake up! There are not going to be any home eCats, or eCat powered cars, or even localized power generators. You cannot buy a single eCat, you need to buy a 1 meg plant. Are you just an ordinary person who wants to help humanity? Forget it!

    There is NO WAY IN HELL that we are ever going to have free energy. Any more than we will ever be allowed to have free music, or free anything else.

    Those of you dutifully defending capitalism are defending the so-called right of rich people to keep us enslaved to money and work forever, no matter what liberating technology gets invented. We will NEVER be allowed to be free. We are their serfs, they farm us, we work, they play, and they are NOT going to give that up willingly, or even allow it to be put at risk.

    When you finally come out of denial, and you can accept the cold hard truth, then you have to decide what you are going to do about it. Because you are living in a system of slavery. Let that reality wash over you.

    • Hampus

      In the next couple of years you are right, but other company’s will catch up and deliver what the market (aka we) want.

      In the next 10-20 years we will se this
      1.big LENR plants take over
      2. Home reactors
      3. Smal LENR reactors in everything. No more cables or batteries anymore 🙂

    • hempenearth

      I’m just wondering what you decided to do about it Linda?

      • Linda

        Open source researchers have to create a working LENR system, and then that knowledge has to be published far and wide.

        Once the Free World has LENR working, we can come back for America.

        • Jim

          And what exactly is the functional plan for “open source researchers have to create a working LENR system”? Like, first step, major milestones, where the required resources come from, who pays their salaries, that sort of thing.

    • Glenn

      Nothing in this world worth having is free, Linda.

      Every other groundbreaking technology in history has come with its ups-and-downs.

      While I believe it will be a net positive to society, don’t anyone kid yourselves into thinking that Cold Fusion/LENR becoming a part of your everyday lives will be nothing but rainbows and sunshine.

      Leonardo Corporation could mature into a dystopian world mega-corporation 50 years from now once Rossi is dead and gone.

      • Linda

        “Nothing in this world worth having is free.”

        Sorry, but that is simply not true. It’s a false platitude.

        The whole *point* of LENR is that it is free energy.

        And the whole *point* of free energy is that ultimately, it makes *everything else free*.

        Once we have unlimited free energy, we can produce everything at no cost. You want a car? Bingo, just print it. You want gold? Bingo, here’s a little LENR powered reactor that will nuke that lead brick with neutrons or whatever, and you’ve got all the gold you could ever want.

        Free energy is the end of capitalism. Free energy means free everything.

        So, if we have the technology, and yet ultimately, we are not allowed to deploy it, or it is kept in the hands of a tiny minority, there can be only one reason for it. Only one.

        We need to stop thinking like slaves. We need to stop speaking to other slaves, to molify them, and get them to accept their chains. We need to start thinking and acting as free men and women, in anticipation of freedom.

        • Woo

          +1 for idealism

          • FlanObrien

            If the “idealism” related to something like “everybody loving their neighbour” then I would agree with you.

            Linda’s text is simply mechanical and logical consequence. Short bootstrap period => Free Energy => Free Materials => Free Products => Breakdown of Political Control. Please comment if any of these implications (=>) are wrong.

            • Glenn

              One man’s free is another man’s illegal/stolen/pirated.

              Something else to think about: when electricity becomes as abundant as air and we no longer have a power bill to pay, the cost of living plummets.
              With lower cost of living comes lower wages.

              Not trying to be a debbie downer, but like the quote from Jurassic Park: “nature always finds a way”, capitalism always finds a way to screw the common man.

              • Anthony

                Sorry, Glen – your pitch doesn’t stick. Capitalism is a recent fabrication, most of the natural world operates on relatively supportive and symbiotic principles. The rise of industrial capitalism itself is an outgrowth of our energy technology: if you own a coal mine, a rail road, a steel plant, you have leverage over others, and incentive to restrict their power and access. If everyone around you is disempowered, you can bet a lower wager for their time. Capitalism lives and dies with its power structure; with fusion, you can expect a different structure. Nature adapts to fit.

          • Linda

            FlanObrien is right. It’s logical and inevitable.

            The Big Picture goes as follows;

            Capitalism is driving productivity increases as hard and as fast as it can, albeit at the expense of all of us workers, but it is happening. It must do this, or there is no profit.

            Except the dividends (wealth) derived from all of this productivity is not being shared around. It is being hoarded. The top 100 richest individuals in the world have enough wealth between them to end global poverty FOUR TIMES OVER.

            If this productivity *were* equally shared, we would all be living in an incredible paradise where big screen TV’s cost $100, and a new house would cost about $3,000. This is very much like the world our parents lived in in the 1960’s, except much better.

            DEFLATION is the result of overproduction, which is the result of compounding productivity. It means that as sure as day follows night, all prices and profits will eventually vanish to NOTHING.

            This process is inevitable, and of course all economists know this; human wants are finite, but compounding productivity improvements are infinite. LENR only accelerates this inevitable process.

            What is the FED’s greatest fear? It is deflation. Because deflation is the signal that the end is beginning. That it will no longer be possible to restrain prosperity and power for a few at the expense of the many. Not without the use of force at least.

            Without the threat of force, people would naturally demand their rights, and an end to poverty, and an equal share in prosperity, and the elites would have to give it over. But currently, every time the majority tries to approach power, and demand justice and equality, they are met with violence and armed force from the State. That’s what happened at Occupy Wall Street. Thousands of citizens arrested, but not one banker has gone to jail. Not one.

            This of course cannot go on. Whether we have LENR or not, productivity will continue to go up and up, and starvation and unemployment will also increase, until society itself collapses. Draw the graph for yourself. Where the lines cross, you are looking at the end of capitalism.

            I say, be aware, and understand what is really going on. Don’t be deluded. Capitalism will allow Free Energy when hell freezes over.

            Right now, you have to decide how you feel about that, and whether or not you want to help those of us who want to research LENR as Open Source, for the good of humanity.

            It’s entirely up to you.

            • Omega Z

              All the Money in the World will not End Hunger. Finding ways to Grow More Food on the other hand Will.

              All Wealth is Mostly fictitious. If you have something of Value, It’s only because someone else is willing to provide his labor to obtain it.

              The reason a Beachfront home is so expensive is because so many want it & there is a limited amount of beachfront.

              People like to talk about productivity having increased 70% over that last 3 decades or so.

              People have actually become less productive. Instead of physically building 20 units an hour, they now monitor a machine that does the real work & produces 40 units an hour.

              And, You can’t realistically trade Hours for Hours.

              An hour of a Doctors Time is worth far more then an Hour of the Guy who mows your lawn.

              The Doctor has Much More of his Life invested in his skill. He has already invested near 20,000 hours of his life learning his skill verses someone who took minutes learning to push or ride a mower.

              Corporation Profits. These are approximates. A 3rd goes to Government Taxes. A 3rd to investors & a 3rd to pension on Average. The Government then Taxes AGAIN, the Investors income & when drawn out, they tax the pensions.

              Without Corporate Profits, the Government will come after Your income to make up for the hundreds of billions they lost. Without Corporate Profits, Your 401K or other pension plans become worth ZERO. Any & All money you put in disappears.

              Rich People don’t have piles of money sitting around. It’s invested. Otherwise they would be broke. And those investments for the most part go to creating Jobs in some form or manner. The only real question here is, is it invested for the most benefit to society.

              And in the end- Nothing is Free. Somebody put some sweat into it. To expect them to Give you their Labor for free is in fact Slavery.

              LENR is also not Free Energy. A lot of labor will go into building the machines that will extract the materials both to build it, Fuel it, & maintain it. This applies to that 3D printer also. Those people will expect a certain amount of you Labors in return. In the Form of Money.

              Life of Leisure. It’s a Killer.
              The Human body evolved to work. It can Actually be overworked for short periods of time without detrimental effects.

              The Biggest health problems in modern society is due to 2 primary things.
              We increased our Calorie intake. That’s because we do less physical labor & Our hands are free to feed our face. We also under work the human body. We now suffer Obesity, Diabetes & an array of other health issues because we no longer work the Human Machine. We need to find our equilibrium before we become extinct.
              All work & no play will kill you. All play & no work will kill you faster.

            • Hampus

              My hope for the future is the same as yours Linda but first this technology have to grow up. In perhaps 20 years when we now everything about cold fusion I hope that we could have tamed it soo good that you can drive it with anything.

              Lets say you have some rocks in your lawn, maybe they can fuel cold fusion?

              If that doesn’t happen ans a few forces have right controll over the fuel that drives the cold fusion fires, I would want to make a mine and give away the nickel for free. In that way I would destroy capitalism with my own two hands.

              There is still hope for the future 🙂

            • Omega Z

              Linda

              If you want a share of the wealth, you need to invest.

              If you want food from the Garden. Plant a Garden. What grows is yours. Retain some for seeding the next year. That would be corporate profit in the business world.

              Taking from someone else’s garden is theft of their labor.

              If you have a pension plan, you are invested. When you retire you’ll get your return.

              • KD

                +1. 🙂

        • guga

          That is far too idealistic thinking.

          I don´t know what percentage of building a car are energy costs. But even if it might be significant, it is certainly not the majority of the costs. A lot of products might get cheaper, maybe even very signficantly, but nothing will be free because of LENR. Not even LENR power itself will be free, it might just be very cheap. Somebody has to build these devices and maintain them.

          Furthermore, at least in Europe, a large part of energy costs are taxes. The governments will still need this money, maybe a little less, but still. Streets have to be maintained, kindergartens and schools paid, … They need to and will find ways to make us pay for this, no matter where we get our energy from.

          I hope that eventually lower energy prices because of LENR will free some of our income and cause new economic growth. But cars and a lot of other stuff will still be expensive, be assured.

        • Jim Anderson

          E-cats do not and will not produce free energy. LENR devices will produce clean non polluting energy at a significantly reduced price.LENR devices won’t make everything free. Raw materials will have to be mined or created. The raw materials will need to be transported and refined and delivered to where manufacturers can make products that have to be delivered to consumers. There will be labor costs. LENRs will make many products much cheaper but not free. In both free enterprise or socialist economies products will still have to be paid for. I find the discussion on this web site very interesting because LENR is already sparking a conversation as to fairness and the shape of the future.

          • Linda

            Good comment Jim. This is a really important discussion.

            Your assertion that there will still be costs etc is only true in the short term. In the long term, as I state in another comment, Deflation is inevitable in the presence of compounding productivity, arising from new technology. LENR simply accelerates this.

            Capitalism is only a transitional phase of social development for humanity. It’s not natural or sustainable, any more than slavery or feudalism are.

            We are currently a Stage Zero society. We are struggling to become a Stage One society. In a Stage One society, unlimited free energy enables humanity to colonize the whole solar system. Unlimited free energy enables transmutation of materials, which enables local manufacture using 3D printing etc and so on. Money is meaningless, and profits from exploitation are impossible.

            Our problem is, how do we advance to a Stage One Civilisation, when we’ve got these leaches sucking the lifeblood out of our society, making millions homeless and starving, just so they can maintain their obscene profits. How do we break free of these people, so we can progress?

            • Jim

              Kim Stanley Robinson’s Mars Trilogy and his 40-50-60 Days Trilogy provide a strong framework and fills in many of the blanks for what you are advocating.

              As far as “How do we break free of these people, so we can progress?”

              Well, we first try to survive and enjoy life enough to maintain any interest in altruism at all.

              Then we try to find ways to leverage the small amount of discretionary time that we have left over to produce some altruistic effect.

              And the best thing to do, when you find what you think is a good leverage point, is to really bear down on it, with all the intelligence, energy and will power you can muster.

              It helps though to check every once in a while to see if you’re having any effect, or making any progress.

              Because there are a lot of fantasies, traps and dead ends out there.

              And again, if you’re really wanting to focus on slave/slaveholder relationships, you really need to go back to “The Dialect of Sex”.

              The problem may be deeper than you think.

            • b4FreeEnergy

              If we make it to a Stage One society before we destroy our world …

              Before we start colonizing other parts of the universe and start creating a mess there it might be a good plan to first clean up the mess we already made from this planet. – And there is a lot to clean up and restore! –

              For the moment it doesn’t look we’re heading in the right direction though …

              Is there a single spot left on this planet where you can breathe clean none polluted air?

            • AlainCo

              sorry, progress of productivity does not mean deflation normally.
              See in the 50-70s and the huge gain of productivity.
              It mean typically growth in perceived wealth and inflation of visible wages and asset. Price inflate, but less because of productivity gains.

              No need of complicated theory, that is what is observed.

              I would have supported your vision, but experience of planned science, planned IT, planned life, planned career, make me convinced that Nassim Nicholas Taleb is right saying that planning is the best way to be fragile and explode more violently than those who accept surprises.

              about “free energy” it will be probably like internet.

              After a period where only the labs coup afford a computer, you paid for every byte transmitted…
              then for minutes connected…
              then a fixed fee to be connected.
              and you get many services for the same price: Internet, TV, games, VCR, VoD, DVD/CD reader, femtocell, mobile, …
              NB: my internet provider is… FREE-TELECOM (ah ah)

              Probably one day you will may 30$/home for heat and power…

            • zapece

              There is only one way however corporate espionage is frowned upon.

          • Morgan

            well when you think about how little nickel is needed and that 1% of the nickel mined today is enough to power the entire world and the fact we have 15,000 years worth of nickel on earth, I think it will become pretty close to free. $9 of nickel right now will power a house for roughly 2½ years. think how much nickel will be mined when this tech comes out. nickel prices will only go down.

          • Roger Bird

            Thank you, Jim Anderson, for a good comment. Just because the energy is almost free does not mean that the automobile will magically make itself.

            The only part of the Marxist garbage I see here that I can agree with is that every business is a fascist, authoritarian organization, and your only freedom is to move from one authoritarian organization to another, if you are able to, buy stock in authoritarian organizations, and buy from or boycott authoritarian organizations. And during your off hours, you have a lot of freedom, including the freedom to call these organizations fascist.

            The power comes from the top down. Your freedom in the organization consist in whether you want to do a rip-snortin’ job and HOPE that you will get promoted or just a lame-a55 job and stay where you are or do a rotten job and get fired.

        • Roger Bird

          I am not a slave. Linda is a slave to her dreadful attitude.

          • zapece

            Linda has been dead right in every post I have read so far.

    • Jim

      Coupla thoughts:

      1) “actually owns the technology” – well, maybe, but maybe just has rights to do the manufacturing and distribution

      2) It’s a lot easier to distribute industrial energy systems using free market capitalism than…what were you proposing as an alternative? Communitarianism? Any good examples of that having produced wide-spread infrastructure impacts?

      3) If you want to pick a fight, try Shulamuth Firestone, the Dialectic of Sex.

    • Thinks4Self

      I want a home E-Cat as well, but currently capitalism controls manufacturing so in order for me to get one I would need to layout at least $30,000US to get a CHP system. If this hypothetical system was completely self sustaining after getting a charge of it’s battery and replaced my current need for CH4 and electricity which say is an average bill of $200 a month it would take 12.5 years for me to break even. That is if I paid cash for the machine if I financed it you’ll likely looking at close to 20 years or more before breaking even. It is these facts that will keep home units from being produced or adopted early. They would make sense as an option on a new home but as a retrofit they would be likely a hard sell.

      Now for retrofit of large scale commercial boilers be they for power generation or other industrial use, only the heating element is likely being changed. Current electric elements look striking similar to the Hot Cat (http://www.wattco.com/files/uploaded/image_upload_75.jpg) so I believe it would be safe to assume that is what they are initially hoping to replace.

      • Omega Z

        Thinks4Self

        I agree. The existing technology cost/benefit isn’t a good fit. Smaller local Grid systems look pretty good at the present & would lead to cheaper energy Bills. Probably more dependable also. A storm 80 miles away wont knock out your power.

        I’ve also looked at CHP systems & I’ve found a couple cheaper then $30K, Which if mass produced would come down in price. However they all have a robustness problem. Within just a couple years they’ll start nickeling 🙂 you to death.

        Which is why I look about for other Technology improvements in the works. Best of all worlds would be a thermal/Electric solid state system if they can get them above 30% & better if they can exceed 40% eventually. I think the availability of LENR would lead to an increased rate of development of these technologies. Built the Smart phones & Apps quickly followed.

        I also keep an Eye on Battery Tech. They talk about breakthroughs that will halve the Price, Size, Weight & 10 fold energy density. Fixes peek demand problems with LENR.

        Heat Absorption A/C is an old tech & the best system is dangerous should they leak. But if E-cats make it to market it shouldn’t take long to re-engineer it for homes. Price may be a factor?

        Homes built with the new tech in mind will always be cheaper then retrofitting & will probably be the best fit. Not only is it cheaper when designed in, It’s cheaper because you would have paid for a system regardless. Subtract the cost you’d have paid for a conventional anyway- Heating/cooling hot water & Maybe a little Juice to boot & the pay back is much quicker.

        Well, Here’s hoping. The E-cat is just part of the picture…

        • Fibb

          “I also keep an Eye on Battery Tech.”

          as you should… BTW EEStor is having their latest layers 3rd party tested on Thursday.

          Might be nearly as interesting as Rossi’s test.

          • Roger Bird

            Fibb, please give us your best link to the EEStor story so that we can follow it.

            • Fibb

              Yes, I’d be happy to. I’m sure a lot of ecat enthusiasts would be interested in revolutionary energy storage should that occur with EEStor.

              The best link is probably this one:

              http://theeestory.ning.com/

              it is the activity page for the site where all the cadre of EEStor fanboyz congregate.

              From there you can quickly see links to all the new blogs, discussions (threads), comments etc.

              Look there later for a discussion(s) concerning the May 30th testing and more importantly the Zenn Motor Company PR and/or EEStor PR about the testing results.

              The PR about the testing results will come “shortly afterwards” according to ZMC. I’m hoping for June 3 at the latest.

              • Roger Bird

                See, Fibb, a person can be an E-Cat enthusiast and an environmentalist and still not believe in AGW. I have been an environmentalist for the past 43 years. How old did you say that you were? (:->) I sent an environmental catalog to the government of the island of Tristan da Cunha, the mostly remotely inhabited place on Earth, in the early 1970’s. What were you doing in the early 1970’s?

    • Jerry Jones

      so what your saying is Rossi sold out to big money interests and we are all fools to think this technology will trickle down to the common man, your probably right it seems, lets see if they can keep a lid on this.

    • Roger Bird

      Linda, get the frick over yourself. I live better than royalty did 200 years ago. I don’t give a damn how well the rich live. How they live has no impact whatsoever on me. They still have to watch the same television shows. If they have faster cars, they can’t actually drive faster. The only thing that they have is that they don’t have to worry about the mortgage. They just find something else to worry about. I challenge you to find one single rich person who is happier than I am, who is surrounded by one single person who loves them more than I am loved by my loved ones.

      You perspective is all out of whack. You are a stone materialist and fail to see what is important in life.

      My son jumps willingly to help me because I am temporarily lame, because he loves me, and he is 14 years old. He never complains because he loves his Daddy. Rich people eat at hugely long tables and never hug. You really fancy that you are less well-off than rich people, and it is their fault. Woo is me! I am a poor victim. Poor baby.

      Anyway, someone will eventually get an E-Cat and reverse engineer it. I wouldn’t be surprised if right this second as I type some dude is in his basement looking in awe at his homemade job putting out excess heat.

      • Linda

        Translation: “I’ve got my TV and I’m ok, so you can just shut up Linda, because I resent you making me think, and I especially resent you making me think about other people besides myself.”

        • Fibb

          Go Linda Go!

          it’s nice to see a different perspective. too many dinosaurs out there think what we have today is just fine. well it’s not. society can do much better.

        • Invy

          Also, the rich can actually drive whatever speed they like… it just becomes a “cost of doing business.”

          They can also write the laws, with eager politicians begging them to do so in exchange for a small war chest.

          All our social ills are because of the wealth gap, if we want a healthy society then we cant have the wealth distribution we have today. The easiest way to alleviate it is to change the rules of currency so that hoarding money becomes prohibitivly expensive. Read about Silvio Geselle, and the worgl currency.

          • Omega Z

            Here’s a thought.

            Will deposit a Billion dollars in everyone’s account tomorrow.

            In a Few Days, We’ll all go back to our same old hum drum jobs, BECAUSE, If we don’t Produce, there is nothing to spend that money on.

        • Roger Bird

          No, Linda. I merely know that your perspective is warped. The TV does not give me happiness. Loving my boy and being his Daddy gives me happiness. Your perspective is that people have to have big screen TVs to be happy.

          Visit North Korea and Burma. I am sure that you would have no problem getting into North Korea. But look closely at the people. North Korea and Burma both have dreadful governments. Both have economies in the toilet. Yet the people in North Korea are miserable, and the people in Burma are smiling.

          My family struggles to make ends meet. Yet we manage to be happy. Other families also struggle, yet they are miserable. It is all about attitude and perspective and values.

          • Linda

            Roger, you are like the old slave trying to convince the young rebelious slave that they will only find peace and happiness when they can learn to accept the collar and whip. I will not. And you should not.

            It is time to open your eyes and see that you have been enslaved, yes, but more; that the chains exist only in your mind.

            The reality is that we are the many, and they the few. And they tremble at the thought of our awakening.

            • Roger Bird

              That is utter BS, but I really mean the spoken out version of BS, not sounding out the initials. You are a complete fool if you think that owning two big screen TVs are going to make you happier than owning just one big screen TV. You don’t address my point that real happiness comes from within.

              If you were talking to someone who lived in Burma, then I could understand why you talk this way. They really are oppressed, although they still manage to be happy anyway.

              So we steal from the rich and my income jumps $10,000 per year. How is that going to make me any happier? And if I don’t invest that money, a whole bunch of companies will not be funded.

    • fortyniner

      IMHO you are completely correct Linda – cold fusion will not be permitted to upset the status quo, and instead will be introduced at a rate and manner that minimise losses to TPTB and maximise potential profits to the existing cartels. Rossi’s apparent ‘sell out’ to the corporate world was inevitable, as there is no viable alternative.

      Not only that but of course it will take corporate-scale R&D to develop the technology in the context of retrofitting existing generator capacity (another inevitable development that will be consistant with minimal disruption, maximum profits) and of course it will be the consumer who actually pays for the transition, regardless of potential profits to energy producers, as this process will be trumpeted as a ‘green revolution’.

      Any subsequent emergence of similar technologies (DGT, Defkalion) will either be absorbed in the same way, or suppressed using whatever means are necessary. Only in the relatively distant future is it possible that local/domestic power production, LENR vehicles etc. may become available, if and when some means is found to (a) centrally control (including turn off) and (b) ‘meter’ such distributed units.

      The BRIC countries will be as keen as the US and its minions to establish such control systems, and in any case import controls would be used to prevent any distribution of ‘dangerous’ bootlegged units from such sources.

      Depressing – but I can’t see any other way this can pan out.

      • Linda

        That is an excellent summation. Yes, it is very depressing. It means that we are going to have to fight these people politically, to get rid of the oligarchs and liberate the technology.

        Just knowing that it is possible, and how it works is not enough. We’ve known about Thorium reactors for nearly 60 years, and yet even Three Mile Island, Chernoble and Fukushima have not been enough to break the stranglehold of these vested interests, or TPTB’s as you call them.

        There has been no serious political struggle to get nuclear replaced with Thorium – it’s all mostly been talk. We can’t make the same mistake with LENR. The political campaign should begin as soon as we have solid proof that it LENR works.

      • AlainCo

        You describe one of the huge lobby desire. to block, then embrace and capture.

        Only greedy, megalomaniac, irresponsible people (call them entrepreneur) may oppose that big corp dream of status quo.

        If western world get locked by big corps and workers lobbies, with government support, then the BRICS, and maybe even the still underdeveloped countries, will jump on the bandwagon.

        Competition and greed, even if quite unpopular today, are the secret of progress…
        Without that, the oligarchy (of big corps, of powerful installed workers) lobby the government to block any change. An the innovation is blocked for long.

        I know how it is here. sadly 8( .

    • Bob

      Patents expire, usually in 14 to 20 years. Once that happens then any company can get in there and make up their own version of what by then should be an already well tested technology.
      I know it sounds like a long time to wait but it passes surprisingly fast.
      I remember when the Berlin wall went up, and I remember when it came down. For all the noise about it, it was a very temporary blip on the span of human history.

  • freethinker

    Regarding previous thread: I have sent an email complaning about “vandalism” on the wikipages relating to AR. Feel free to do the same. One mail has zero impact. a hundred may have some.

    • Woo

      +1

  • What if

    So he sold it. Bye bye e-cat.

    • Jim

      See Omega Z’s comment below. Rossi’s post could simply mean that he’s not performing the business management functions on a day to day basis, and says nothing about control of the IP, Rossi’s ability to blog, etc.

    • Glenn

      I’m going to speculate that this “mammoth contract” that was signed between Rossi and the Mystery Partner probably has many clauses that ensure that Rossi maintains the upper hand in the relationship. Some examples that spring to mind include:

      – Provisions for royalties to be paid directly to Rossi on any sales that spring from the technology, even if the IP is transferred to another entity in the future.

      – An exit clause that terminates the deal, returning all control over the IP back to Rossi, in the case that no progress is made. This prevents the Mystery Partner from being bribed into burying the technology by opposing parties.

      – Provisions related to Rossi’s position as Chief Scientist. Can’t be fired, can’t be overruled on certain technical-level decisions, etc.

      These 3 examples just scratch the tip of the iceberg.
      Rossi’s attorneys are surely well-versed in the methods that exist with which to write a contract that protects their client’s interests.

      The arrangement makes a lot of sense. Typically the people who make great engineers do not make great businessmen, and vice versa.

      • Woo

        I hope you are right.
        For the last part I think you are definitely right.

      • Jim

        +1

      • fortyniner

        In practice the legal systems of most countries are heavily biased towards big business, or are open to ‘influence’ or outright corruption. Inventors rarely win against corporate legal teams, no matter how ‘watertight’ the contracts they sign.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    If you want to ask Rossi a question you better ask now, if I were the Partner I would want him to stop all discussions about E-Cat on JONP.

    • Woo

      if they really are that influentual in their partnership it is interesting that they allowed him to tell us that much, and until now.

      little bit strange.

    • Omega Z

      Bernie

      Nothing has Changed. This agreement was signed last July there about. Rossi made a similar statement at that time.
      His statement to this question is just a reiteration of what he said before.

      Just to Add, This is a partner.
      They handle the Business End. He’s the Chief Scientist.

  • E-dog

    Hi People.
    Hope everyone is happy as Larry! Im back to checking the ecat updates daily again after these new announcements!!

    I hope Rossi has not sold out to the wrong people and I think would actually prefer Rossi at the helm of the Ecat franchise(as opposed to 99.999% of corporations out there, although I would highly recommend hiring a competent PR person 🙂 …

    which.. come to think of it.. if he really has relinquished his rights to this invention. Then the multi-billion dollar company that he has hinted at controlling the IP .. REALLY should hire a PR person (especially at this stage) and stop letting their Chief Scientist botch the marketing and image of this game changing technology. Am I wrong?

    • Woo

      nope,

      you are right.

  • Woo

    I think if he really sold the R&D of Leonardo (as he said on JONP May 24th, 2013), which is pretty much what Leaonardo is, and become “merely” the chief scientist then I think he left business to better suited for the benefit of his invention.

    He can spend more time on the e-cat and his partner would, with their substantial financial background as it seems, bring this mass produced to the market.

    Of course under the assumption he signed a partnership agreement and not an enslavement treaty 😉

  • Omega Z

    It is possible to retain majority ownership while turning over all business dealings to a “PARTNER”.

    I was actually involved in such an arrangement because, Quite Frankly, I didn’t want the headaches. I was involved behind closed doors on the process, But My partner made the Final decisions as he dealt with the consequences. The headaches.

    Some who tried to bypass him learned real fast. His decisions were 100% final. I would not override his decisions. I retained the Right to fire on the spot & did so on several occasions. My Partner rehired 1 after a 2 hour discussion with him on safety protocol. No further negligence would be tolerated. And I had no problem with that. He was after all a qualified technician otherwise. In a good partnership, Each makes use of the others best qualities & all benefit.

    As for Rossi, He should do what he seems to do best. Develop the E-cat. Let the Partner take care of Business.

    Lets Face It. Business may not be Rossi’s FORTE. 🙂
    Each makes use of the others best qualities & all benefit.
    That be US.

    • Roger Bird

      Z-Cat, good post. I hope that Linda reads it.

  • artefact

    Thanks to Jed on Vortex

    Mats Lewan:

    Criticism, praise and comments on the Swedish-Italian E-Cat report

    http://matslew.wordpress.com/2013/05/27/criticism-praise-and-comments-on-the-swedish-italian-e-cat-report/

  • Emilio

    On May 21st I asked Mr Rossi at the JNP: “…It seems to me that with an investment of around $100 million you could start mass production of the industrial e-Cats; 2) Is the commitment of your US partner of this size?” and he answered “2- Yes”. This is the first indication that I know of from Mr. Rossi about the size of the ‘mammoth’ deal. It also gives an indication that it is no longer a “friends and family” operation and that the US partner has substantial resources.

    • Jerry Jones

      The partner is not going to sit on this game changer invention for long, they have to gear up and are probably building assembly lines as we speak, Rossi has already said this was taking place, should not be long now.

      • Jimr

        I disagree, the company will not deliver any ecats with the exception of a few 100k test units until a reliable 1 meg single unit is available for large heating and electrical needs. Possibly 2 more years plus testing time for 1 meg units.

        • Woo

          i agree. but on the other hand they´ll propably want to be ready to produce them in some quantities as soon as they proove it works to specs, in their 6 month internal test whatsoever.

        • GreenWin

          Deny, Defend, Delay… the disinfo credo.

          The longer it takes to bring a product to market the more time competitors have to copy it. This is where commercial production is a very different ballgame than science.

          • Jerry Jones

            They are vested now and contracts have been signed American companies are not going to wait long for the likes of the Athens Group to find out that they had the secret sauce after-all.

        • Thinks4Self

          You are probably correct. It doe appear Rossi was thinking big for the gas cat prototype:
          https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/971585_454812001278124_987168996_n.jpg

          I personally think some of the first commercial units sold in large quantities will be gas powered. They are perfect drop-in replacement for power generation. If the utilities could drop their fuel cost to 1/6 of what it currently is or better, they would retrofit their boilers without a second thought.

          Smaller drop-in replacements for electric powered boiler heating elements will also likely be offered. These will still be commercial uses food prep, manufacturing, heating/cooling large buildings, etc,…

      • roseland67

        Jerry Jones,

        This is genius
        Rossi just excused himself from ever delivering anything,
        if it works or not, he simply says, “I don’t control the business anymore”.
        Can you imagine the conspiracy theorys in a few years?

      • Roger Bird

        It would be very easy to build a factory and no one know what the factory was going to build or was building.

    • daniel maris

      Well yes that is a key revelation and now we don’t take such Rossi Says pronouncements with such a large pinch of salt.

  • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

    Off-topic for the thread: the question whether assuming emissivity equal to one indeed yields to underestimation of the radiated power. Now I think yes, but to deduce it one has to know something about the Optris PI-160 thermal camera. The specs of the camera say that its wavelength range is 7.5-13 microns. For relevant HotCat temperatures, this is on the long wavelength side of the Planck emission function (i.e. to the right from the peak in wavelength space). If the true emissivity is below unity, say 0.8, and one inputs 1.0 for the camera (as the testers did), the camera basically integrates the emission in its wavelength band and then finds a source temperature which, when multiplied by the assumed emissivity 1.0, yields the same integral. Because the real emissivity is smaller, this yields an underestimation of the temperature, as the testers said. The total radiative emission (integral of Planck function over all wavelengths) is emissivity*sigma*T^4. The real emissivity is less than unity which tends to make the true emitted power smaller than the estimated one. But the real temperature is higher which causes a reverse effect. Which effect wins is not immediately clear. I tested it numerically for temperatures 300-400 C used in the test (i.e. I numerically integrated the Planck function in the range 7.5-13 um and then adjusted the source temperature until it matches the real one; the full story is a bit more complicated but this is the general idea). It is indeed so that with these numbers, the net effect is underestimation of the emitted power.

    The result is understandable, I think, in the following way. If the camera measures an integral of the emission function above the peak, underestimation of temperature moves the real Planck function towards shorter wavelengths i.e. further away from the camera’s wavelength range. Thus the camera sees a smaller fraction of the radiated infrared energy than it thinks based on its own idea of the source temperature which is based on assuming epsilon=1 instead of the correct value. The numerical integration also shows that if the camera’s wavelength range would be below the peak, overestimation of the emitted power would result. But that regime is never entered in this case because it would correspond to only room temperature or such.

    If the true epsilon is 0.8 and true temperature 400 C, I got an underestimation factor of 0.889 for the emitted power. I.e., the underestimation is not likely to be large, but it is anyway of the correct sign as the testers asserted.

    • Methusela
      • Pekka Janhunen

        Yes I did. But I don’t think it was said correctly there. I also notice some discussion on Vortex about it. “Joshua Cude” seems to get it so far that he says it could go either way, but didn’t take into account the camera specs for the wavelength window which is above the peak and that renders the testers’ assertion correct.

      • Stefan

        1. I don’t agree with Ekstrom that the report is about a proof of a working ECAT, the authors clearly states that it is an indication of a working setup and they think that the probability of it working considering all the circumstances had increased a lot. After all they would like to continue with a more well funded experiment.

        2. He mentions that he is not an expert in measuring heat balances but argue that the testing team was not either. Well they had the camera and the manual to the IR camera, they could tamper with it to see on what direction the measurement goes for different values of the emmisivity. Also my impression was at first that the emmisivity approximation was strange but because I realized that they have worked hard on this I sat down and try to understand how it worked, then after some digging it was clear that the procedure should be OK to me.

        3. He finds it difficult to understand that just a small amount of powder could generate so much heat without melting. If I don’t misunderstood this issue the powder radiates and the steel cylinder transform that energy to heat so if that is the true physics the result would not be disturbing.

    • Eric

      You should extend your comments to vortex, Pekka. Why you do not post there is a mystery to me.

      I would have considered it if i were you, but dont leave ECW!

      • AB

        Yes, it’s nice to see comments from a person that has technical skills and actually takes some time to analyze things.

        • NJT

          A big +10 for Pekka

    • Methusela
    • Omega Z

      Pekka

      You should know your input here at ECW is greatly appreciated.

      I understood the implications of the temp data (emissivity factor), But it’s great to have someone verify my assumptions. Because assumptions can sometimes be wrong.

  • Sanjeev

    Wouldn’t all the patents to be filed contain the name of the partner co ? So how long can they remain hidden ?
    Same for agreements signed with distributors and papers for certifications etc.

    • Alex

      Rossi has already filed all of his patents, under his name, and Leonardo cooperation. Only if new technology comes about, will the new company be revealed.

      • NJT

        Then one knowledgeable with the science should be able to replicate the phenomena from the patent application(s) once published, right?

  • John Bull

    Frank,

    It’s Google.

    But seriously, why was my beautiful comment addressed to Alessio Guglielmi moderated? Was i that wrong?

    Cheers,

    JB

    • http://www.e-catworld.com admin

      Hi John, I approved it. Not sure why it went into moderation but I don’t think it was in there for long.

      • John Bull

        Admin,

        Sorry, Sir. With type-o’s and all. Thank you!

        Cheers,

        JB