Forbes’ Mark Gibbs on the E-Cat 3rd Party Tests

Here’s a new article by Mark Gibbs of Forbes.com commenting on the 3rd party report. Gibbs has covered the E-Cat and LENR in the past but has become somewhat disenchanted with the topic because of the lack of conclusive evidence from his point of view. Today’s article is quite a bit more positive as evidenced by its title: “Finally! Independent Testing Of Rossi’s E-Cat Cold Fusion Device: Maybe The World Will Change After All

Gibbs writes:

What everyone wanted was something that Rossi has been promising was about to happen for months: An independent test by third parties who were credible. This report was delayed several times to the point where many were wondering whether it was all nothing more than what we have come to see as Rossi’s usual “jam tomorrow” promises. But much to my, and I suspect many other people’s surprise, a report by credible, independent third parties is exactly what we got.

  • LCD

    Even if they had measured the temp wrong and it was only 600K that is still a COP of~3.3 which is still physically impossible for that device for that long of a period of time. (December test)

  • LCD

    I think the radiated power from an average temp of 711.5 Kelvin is wrong in there calculation, should be 1466W but they have 1609W so it drops their COP to 5.37 instead of 5.6.

    somebody check me

    Not too bad though considering they don’t even include the sides in their area calculation. (which if they did and it was the same temp would have been a COP of 5.98)

  • AlanG

    Regarding the test protocol, the input waveform is the easiest to game. The “high bandwidth” power meter is limited to about 200 kHz. The power controller is only described as a “TRIAC circuit”. Triacs (SCRs) can easily switch in 10 nsec, so the stimulus waveform could include a train of sub-microsecond pulses completely invisible to the power monitor at the output side of the control device. Proper experimental protocol would simply measure the power drawn from the mains connection and I can’t understand why that wasn’t done. In fairness, the funky power wiring to the cell makes such high frequencies unlikely.

    • Andre Blum

      The way I understand it, the power analyzer was connected *before* the TRIAC circuit. I may be wrong.

      The TRIAC circuit generates the industry trade secret waveform. By allowing the testers to connect the power and harmonics analyzer *behind* the circuit, the waveform would very quickly not be secret anymore.

      • AlanG

        Yes, you are correct – “The clamp ammeters were connected UPSTREAM from the control box..” I withdraw my comment.

      • Sanjeev

        On page-16 it says that the ammeters were connected upstream from the power control box, but there was no Triac in this case (Ecat HT2). They were not allowed to look inside the power control box, as its a trade secret of Rossi.

        Triac was used in previous test and no mention of ammeters is there.

        Rossi surely uses a special power supply for the Ecats. Assuming that the power supply was rigged, it would have produced the same heat in live and dummy Ecats. The live Ecat produced much more heat with the same power supply, so we can rule out any tricks with power supply here.

        • fortyniner

          Thanks for that clarification Sanjeev.

          There seems to be rather a lot of ‘gaming’ going on here and elsewhere, in an attempt to drive down the calculated output values, often based on partial truth, incorrect assumptions and/or misinterpretations of concepts like emissivity.

          Edit: I’m not referring to AlanG, who has corrected his observations.

    • Bob

      TRIACs and SCRs can switch on rapidly but once switched on, they can only switch off when the current returns to zero. This is usually at the zero crossing point of the AC waveform where it goes from the positive half cycle to the negative half cycle.
      This means that the switch frequency can only be at the mains frequency, which would probably be 60 Hz. For it to be anything other than this would require a conversion of the incoming AC power to DC and then inverting it to a new AC frequency. The fact that TRIACs are used means that it has to be AC power which is being regulated.
      The normal way they work is to switch on at some predetermined point in each half cycle and then they automatically switch off at the zero crossing point. A triac is unable to remain on at the zero point so the variable output is achieved by altering the point in the waveform where it is switched on. All that stuff is now very simple, well known and ‘off the shelf’ technology.
      I don’t know why they were not allowed to look inside the control box. It would be next to impossible to gain any insight into proprietry information from a visual inspection of electronic modules.
      A visual inspection would have proved very useful in determining that the internal wiring had not been arranged to falsify the power readings. They should have been allowed to look inside.
      I wonder if any of the test people were made suspicious by this?
      I would have been.

  • georgehants

    popsci
    Cold Fusion Machine Gets Third-Party Verification, Inventor Says
    The E-Cat strikes again.
    http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1112851580/second-martian-rock-drilled-by-curiosity-nasa-052013/

  • RenzoB
  • Eric
    • Andrew Macleod

      Horribad article!

      • Eric

        Its popsci, what did you expect?

      • fortyniner

        … leaves out crucial details…. instead of specifying what chemicals actually go into the reaction. (Note the clever implication that the e-cat is just a chemically-driven fr*ud.)

        … those who work on cold fusion — often tinkerers not associated with major research institutions…

        Purest agenda driven bile. I used to thing that Gibbs was an unpleasant character, but this Francie Diep person has made it to the top of the slimebag pile in one bound.

        • GreenWin

          There is something very fishy in Sweden. Popular Science is owned by the Swedish Bonnier family. Bonnier is controlled by around 75 family members, including some seventh-generation heirs. One might think the Bonniers have an axe to grind with Rossi, Hanno Essen, or some of the authors of the E-CatHT Report.

          It may be that Bonnier is a competitor with Finnish publishing giant Talentum, owner of Ny Teknik whose former Editor, Mats Lewan has championed Rossi and LENR. Here is Mats personal blog:

          https://matslew.wordpress.com/2013/05/20/two-100-hour-scientific-tests-confirm-anomalous-heat-production-in-rossis-e-cat/

          In any event PopSci has become irrelevant in light of sophisticated online publishing. They look like a lot like Kirvit, alone, isolated, and bitter.

          • fortyniner

            And if the linked article is anything to go by, almost content free – which is certainly not what people are looking for. That snidey little piece of disinfo could have come straight from mary milstone.

    • Kim

      Cold!

      American Cold!

      Nasty!

      Stinks of Big Oil.

      Respect
      Kim

    • artefact

      “He has previously passed off spurious inventions, including a machine that was supposed to turn waste into oil”
      The Bergius process is known…

      • Alex

        Umm…We regularly turn waste into Methane. Ever see the lit torches on top of land fills. Why is it hard to believe fermentation couldn’t lead to liquid fuel?

    • Tony McDougall

      The link is dead.

      • artefact

        works for me. There is just an advertisement at the beginning

        • Tony McDougall

          Must be my Popup blocker :(

    • Methusela

      Yeah, she deletes every single positive comment and just leaves negative ones.

      She is apalling.

  • Andrew Macleod

    Finally! The little snowflake that fell 2 years ago is now a snowball…. Soon to be an avalanche. Good job Rossi et al.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer
    • Ecco the Dolphin

      Eek. Plutonium is on the wrong place in that chart.
      Its actual position shuld be low on the far right.

      • Andre Blum

        yes, I too noticed that it is totally wrong.

        Also, if they say that the e-cat is about one order of magnitude greater than a chemical reaction, what chemical reaction are we talking about? This chart says it differs several orders of magnitude.

      • Mick D

        I took it to be the position is correct but the listed coordinates have reversed values. The point was added by the Forbes author I think?

    • artefact

      Hi Bernie,

      see the posts at the end of the page here. The value of the e-cat should be way better than it is now.
      But one can see that it has a very good energy density AND a very good power density.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Yes, this has to turn a lot of heads in the scientific community.

  • artefact

    TomsHardware.com would be good. I know of some people who read that.
    But Toms Hardware.it is a start:
    —-

    Toms Hardware.it

    Fusione nucleare fredda: un italiano ce l’ha fatta

    http://www.tomshw.it/cont/news/fusione-nucleare-fredda-un-italiano-ce-l-ha-fatta/45929/1.html

    • Roger Bird

      So, does this mean that it is being reported in the Italian mainstream press?

      • RenzoB

        not mainstream

  • Björn

    Elforsk will continue to finance study of the ecat.
    And it is big buisness behind Elforsk.
    Vattenfall for example.

    • Tony McDougall

      That’s interesting!

    • Hampus

      They will put many millions in this project, they have said before.

  • Zero

    Do Not call them “skeptics”. Skeptics is too high of a term for most of them now. At this point they are “conspiracy theorists” and should be called as such. I’m not saying healthy skepticism is bad, but most of the healthy skeptics are at least a bit more convinced of the E-Cat future than some of the conspiracy theorists that still exist on the boards. Call em like you see em.

    • Roger Bird

      Changing perspectives is a bitch. Intelligence does not correlate very well with being able to look outside the box and finding treasures there. Within a perspective, intelligence is great and necessary. Many people glance/peer outside the box, but see nothing but junk and scary stuff there, and so stop glancing outside the box. If one is being paid for things inside the box and things outside the box are a threat to those paychecks coming from inside the box, then one is doubly motivated to not look outside the box.

  • georgehants

    While millions are suffering with the lack of Cold Fusion to power the water cleansing technology this is what NASA is spending billions on.
    —–
    Curiosity Rover Drills For A Second Time On Martian Rock.
    http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1112851580/second-martian-rock-drilled-by-curiosity-nasa-052013/

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      +1

    • Locutus of Borg

      And how exactly does what NASA spends money on have to do with “water clensing technology”? I’m sure we’ll need that on Mars eventually. Sometimes you confuse me.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        We are spending billions of dollars on Mars probe and Mars water search when we should be researching LENR and ways to save the lives thousands of children by simple clean water tech through LENR here on earth.

        • Locutus of Borg

          Becuase the few billion we are spending on mars is all the extra money that we have laying around? Get real people.

        • Jjaroslav

          Sexy stuff sells….losing a job at the “gas station” doesn’t.

          • Jjaroslav

            Stuff that’s sexy sells…..Martian dreams for everyone…..
            All those jobs in in energy sector disappearing …..not so sexy.
            Watch for the diversion ….

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Mars and space science is culture. Unmake war, not Mars.

    • Roger Bird

      I have grown bored with Mars, also. Compared with LENR and other Earth-bound issues, Mars is merely a curiosity.

      • Andre Blum

        :-)

      • GreenWin

        But what of Martians?

      • fortyniner

        Convoluted – but you got there!

        • GreenWin

          With only a slight omission the url would be: “Second Martian Drilled by Curiosity.” What happened to the first??

  • Barry

    2 things, Dr. Rossi is who he said he was and Mark Gibbs, though I didn’t like some of his articles in the past, was big enough to say he was wrong (or at least surprised) in writing no less. I’ll think higher of both of them from here on in.

    I thought Forbes magazine would side with the rich and powerful but here they are one of the first to put out a positive story about CF. Things are looking up.

    GOOD BYE BIG OIL, HELLO COLD FUSION REVOLUTION.

    • Hampus

      How did Rockefeller become the riches man in history? His lampoil Standard oil was challenged by the electrical light and he had to think of another was of making money. So he looked at what he was throwing away and managed to make that into the greatest investment in all time, Gasoline. Before Rockefeller oil was only used for lamp oil, but he took what other saw as waste and turned it into the backbone of society,

      Rich people have the opportunity to invest in cold fusion now and make even more money, that’s how the economy work and Forbes know that. They are making news for the rich and they definitely want to know this.

      • What if

        Sorry to tell you, but electricity doesn’t make airplanes fly, and that is just one industrial branch. Oil is used for a gazillion of things.

    • AlainCo

      Gibbs behave like an honest skeptic, this mean asked question, made phone call, checked and slowly changed opinion. RESPECT!

      Note that financial newspaper, unlike opinion or leisure newspaper, lose their audience when they miss an important information, not when they say what their audience dislike.
      This is why, despite their ideology bias, they accept dissenters to express, not to miss the next black-swan. Reader are then free to ignore the dissenters, but that is their business… they cannot blame the journal.

    • Roger Bird

      Barry, does this mean that your paranoia about Big Oil may have been exaggerated?

      I suggest that instead of abandoning your paranoia about Big Oil that you merely transfer it to Big Pharma. Now there is a racket for you, and it has NOTHING to do with your health. If anything, your health (or lack thereof) will be a negative side-affect for Big Pharma.

      • Barry

        I’m not parinoid about big oil, just don’t like the imbalance. I talked with a guy from Shell oil and he said Shell is keeping a watchful eye on CF because they know oil will not last forever.

      • Job001

        Rodger, I respect your balance and promotion of LENR.

        The paranoia and conspiracy labels rings increasingly false, IMHO, as cartels control/undermine/corrupt more social processes and Government, regulation, food safety, communication, problem solving, once free markets, capital markets, innovation, algorithmic trading, extreme political obstruction, low productivity flow to workers and jobs, extreme health cost vs GDP, pension elimination, job instability, politics, privacy, marketing, freedom, lobbying, inequitable taxation, IP moles, excess litigation, and buried IP innovation, and voter representation measures decline.

        Admittedly some of these are subjective measures, but come on, it’s getting ridiculous.
        GINI, happiness index, corruption index, IP to generic price ratios, net wage to GDP stagnation are less subjective measures.

        I’m not saying everything is awful, many of us have good productive high income lives. What I’m saying is it is not exaggeration nor paranoia to recognize concentrated corporate wealth is having broad detrimental social impacts!

  • Sanjeev

    There are rumors on the internet that Intergo (Rossi related company) has raised a lot of money.

    http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/05/rossi-nasa-and-low-energy-nuclear.html

    I couldn’t find the source of the rumors.

    • RenzoB

      I’ve been following every details about Rossi for more than two years and it is the first time I read the name Intergo.
      I can’t find anything online, it seems completely made up.

    • fortyniner

      Interesting that Zawodny states as fact that LENR uses carbon, as well as nickel and hydrogen. I’m not sure I’ve seen it said that plainly before. MFMP – dump the wire, you can’t make it anyway – try nickel dust and H2 with carbon, carbonates, methane, acetone, engine oil etc. plus RF, ultrasonics, oscillating EM fields or AC current flow!

      I think we can be reasonably sure that many wheels will be turning now.

      • Ted-X

        Carbon monoxide for surface carbonylation of nickel…
        (Just be careful with the toxicity of potentially forming nickel tetracabonylate). Perhaps 5% partial pressure of CO?
        (This is for the replicators).

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        +1

      • Roger Bird

        If we could definitely state that the LENR process eats a lot of CO2, then we could get funding from the Sierra Club.

        You realize if we head into an ice age as LENR is gradually taking over, then the AGW fans will say, “I told you so” because the CO2 wouldn’t supposedly be holding the temperature up. Then they would come after us, in their heavy coats, in a pogrom of LENR hating.

  • Sanjeev

    Krivit seems to have fallen to the lowest possible level of skepticism, which is character assassination. It was expected. He failed to find a hidden wire in the photo this time and was probably annoyed at the accuracy of the report, so the last weapon had to be used.

    One can imagine what will be the next steps. Some are going to say there is heat, but its useless. Next, it will be labeled as a dangerous weapon and total ban will be recommended (like fission), next they will demand it to be tightly regulated because it is giving too much freedom to the masses and making governments obsolete.

    It will be fun.

    • http://www.kaltefusion.tk/blog barty

      We should try to inform environmental interesetd parties.

      Because they have better possibilities in media and public.

      If it comes to the “it’s dangerous” phase, then these parties are able to clarify.

    • daniel maris

      Where is Krivit spreading his bile?

      • Sanjeev

        Comment section, forbes article.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      I stopped listening to this guy with a sixth grade science education two years ago.

    • Roger Bird

      Perhaps we should inform Krivit that Christos Stremmenos has duplicated Rossi with a different geometry using Rossi’s dust: http://www.prometeon.it/news.php

      I am pretty sure that Rossi blasted Krivit verbally and Krivit is still pouting. Adults can drag out their pouts and deny them for a long period of time.

  • http://www.kaltefusion.tk/blog barty

    Yesterday, I updated the german wikipedia article about “kalte fusion”. I didn’t expect they will approve this change, but they did :)

    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalte_Fusion#Umstrittene_Nickel-Wasserstoff-Reaktion

    See the last paragraph:

    “Am 16. Mai 2013 wurde von Hanno Essén vom Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm ein Testbericht einer unabhängigen Gruppe von Wissenschaftlern mit dem Titel “Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device” bei arXiv.org eingereicht und am 20. Mai veröffentlicht.[44] Bei diesem Funktionstest wurden die zwei “Hot-Cat” oder auch “E-Cat Hot Temperature” genannten Reaktoren jeweils 96 und 116 Stunden lang im Betrieb überwacht und Messdaten gesammelt. Die Autoren des Berichts merkten an, dass sie nicht auf alle Eigenschaften des Prozesses Einfluss nehmen durften, aber eine Kontrollmessung ohne aktiven Reaktorkern durchführten. Sie kamen zu dem Ergebnis, dass eine Energieproduktion um mindestens eine Größenordnung höher als bei konventionellen Energiequellen zweifelsfrei vorhanden war. Die von einer schwedischen Stiftung finanzierten Messungen wurden in Abwesenheit Rossis durchgeführt.”

    This sounds positive, and wikipedia is the first raw information source in germany.

    • fortyniner

      You may need to keep checking your entry every few hours for a while!

    • Sanjeev

      The talk section of wiki (Energy Catalyzer) is more interesting, it shows the censorship going on in almost real time.

      The rule there seems to be that if its against Ecat, it must be allowed in the article and no evidence is required, all wikipedia rules can be ignored. And if it supports Ecat, it needs an insane amount of evidence, original sources and approval of admins, who mostly delete it anyway.

      If its a positive fact about Ecat, it must have a question mark or at least one negative comment to balance it, (aka npov), so that no conclusion can be drawn. If its negative, it should sound like a fact.

      For example, Randi and Bushnell and mentioned in same para, making it seem like both are equally expert in Physics, but quotes are used to water down Bushnell’s positive remarks and Randi’s prediction is undisputed.

      The most important fact about Ecat (3rd party report) gets only 3 lines, and there only a negative sentence from the report is mentioned. The conclusion of the report comes from the mouth of Gibbs, not from the report directly. No mention of who wrote the report at all. The report is not linked.

      There are more such examples and one must wonder who is taking so much pain to keep Ecat (and LENR) in shades.

    • artefact

      I think it is gone now!
      :) :(

    • Omega Z

      It’s Gone, Gone, Gone.

  • AB

    Prof. Stremmenos replicates anomalous heat with a reactor of his own construction using powder provided by Rossi:

    http://www.prometeon.it/news.php

    Can anyone find more info on this work?

    • artefact

      nice!

      • georgehants

        +1

        • R101

          Any English version?
          Someone stole my like button ;)

    • Sanjeev

      Perhaps he should publish his findings ? Must be the NDA I guess.

      I’m sure there will be a long queue of people requesting a time slot to test Ecat in coming days. All that is remaining is an analysis of the ash and wet calorimetry. Perhaps Rossi will not allow the ash to be examined, but it would erase all doubts of this being chemical or there being an error in measuring input due to complex waveform.

      • Invient

        Possibly Rossi would allow mass differences to be published, the catalyst would likely be deduced if nuclear products are reported.

        Simply knowing the mass change should be enough, if the energy density isn’t, to erase all doubts.

    • barty

      This should be done in respected labs all over the world.

      But we all know this will never happen as long as Rossi isn’t able to get a patent on his secrets…

    • daniel maris

      Wow! The good news is coming fast. Hurry up MFMP! Get replicating…forget the Celani wire. :)

      • Bertuswonkel

        Nooo don’t forget about the Celani wire and his research! I think it is a saver method since nano powders are dangerous. Furthermore, different methods of demonstrating the effect adds to the credibility of the whole field.

    • Roger Bird

      Very nice. So, I guess from the patho-skeptics viewpoint, Stremmenos is part of the conspiracy. I guess, for some of these people, Home Depot will become part of the conspiracy in the future, a few years down the road.

  • Roger Bird

    Pay close attention to the graph. Click on it then click on it again to enlarge it. Enlarging it is quite telling. Notice that the axises are logarithmic.

    With regard to energy per kilogram, the best conventional energy source is gasoline at close to 3000 watt hours per kilogram. The recent E-Cat test was 50,000,000 watt hours per kilogram, 16,666 times more than gasoline And the test was concluded artificially; they didn’t stop the test because they ran out of fuel. They could have kept going if they felt like it. If they they had kept on going, gasoline would have long ago been used up, and the E-Cat would have just kept on truckin’. This would have made th 16,666 figure above be MUCH larger. And this Summer they are going to start a test that is going to keep on going.

    The peak power (energy is power over a period of time) per kilogram of the E-Cat test was about 1171 times more than gasoline. Although plutonium-238 is roughly 24390 times higher, this feature of plutonium has not been used (in anger) for 68 years, and we probably don’t really want to use this “aspect” of plutonium again if we can help it.

    Notice that most of the “sources” in the graph were not really primary sources: only methane, gasoline, plutonium and the E-Cat. Coal is missing, as is solar, geothermal, oil (yes, gasoline is derived from oil), wind, and perhaps a few others. All of the other items on the graph were energy storage devices.

    It would be very interesting if someone could draw a graph for only and all primary energy sources, and include the primary effort to create the energy sources. For example, in this graph, does gasoline include the fact that it takes energy to create gasoline from oil.

  • georgehants

    From Atom Ecology
    Italian Cold Fusion Tide Lifts All Boats. ARXIV IPaper Confirms Rossi Fusion
    Italian Cold Fusion Tide Lifts All Boats. ARXIV IPaper Confirms Rossi Fusion
    May 20, 2013 · by admin · in Science News, Scientific Papers
    Just published on the Physics Internet Journal Arxiv, a multi-national team assembled to independently study and report on Rossi’s cold fusion demonstration apparatus… It is wildly positive, read more here…
    Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device containing hydrogen loaded nickel powder.
    http://atom-ecology.russgeorge.net/2013/05/20/an-italian-cold-fusion-tide-lifts-all-boats-arvix-independent-review-paper-confirms-rossi-fusion/

    • Roger Bird

      Wow!!!! They published without peer reviews. Good for them.

      • daniel maris

        I think that’s just the arvix version – which we’ve seen already (E Cat Com linked to it).

  • georgehants

    The Reference Frame
    Tuesday, May 21, 2013
    Tommaso Dorigo impressed by a cold fusion paper
    Listen to this article. Powered by Odiogo.com
    …but the paper is 100% crackpottery…
    In his text “Is Cold Fusion For Real?”, Tommaso Dorigo seems highly impressed by the following new Italian-Swedish preprint about cold fusion:
    Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device
    They claim that an Andrea-Rossi-style tube with nickel and hydrogen produced 10+ times more energy per liter of fuel than any known chemical reaction, as measured by thermal imaging cameras during 96- and 116-hour experimental runs.
    Dorigo says that “the conclusions of the tests are at the very least startling”. He “continue[s] to believe in the scam hypothesis, but [he] must admit that this study impressed [him] for its reported result.” Also, he must say that “[he] will from now on follow more closely the developing story of Rossi’s E-CAT…”.
    http://motls.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/tommaso-dorigo-impressed-by-cold-fusion.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    • Roger Bird

      +100

      • lenrdawn

        +100 to what? Lubo is (in his very direct way) thrashing the report completely.

        • Roger Bird

          I don’t know why I wrote +100 to that. Perhaps I clicked on the wrong comment. It was late. I don’t even understand it now.

    • fortyniner

      It’s very difficult to see how someone could be impressed by the study and yet continue to believe it’s all a huge sc*m.

      Severe cognitive dissonance seems to be the order of the day for many dyed in the wool naysayers now. They can either accept the new reality, or decide that it didn’t really amount to anything after all, so they can go back to believing in a huge and pointless charade.

      • Pachu

        There is questioning on the power input, there is concern about the “industrial secret waveform” that the paper mentions, the paper implies that the team cant verify for real the electric power input and had to take the word on the “short pulse”, while in true its a continuum pulse.

        If the pulse where continuum there would be no excess energy.

        • georgehants

          Pachu, If main-line science had done it’s job for 24 years maybe you would have all these details, in the meanwhile it may be good to thank those outside of the establishment corruption and incompetence for doing the best they can.

        • GreenWin

          The paper clearly verifies the electric power input. And the error margins are FAR below the energy gain. Thus, as the paper states, measurement error (+-0.8) does not alter the magnitude of energy output.

    • Tony McDougall

      Quote: “That makes it very likely that the authors don’t actually know TEX”. I thought TEX was a relic of 1980’s mainframe based text document publishing programs!!!

    • Tony McDougall

      If you read the whole post by Luboš Motl you can only come to the conclusion that it’s a pseudonym for S Krivit.

    • Shane D.

      The person (?) crticizing Dorigos conversion from ecat skeptic to cautious believer, then goes on (after calling Dorigo an unhinged lunatic) to blast the report in a very scientifically based critique.

      First he nitpicks nomenclature and not using TEX, then goes into the equations which he describes as rubbish, with little supporting data from the charts they draw from.

      Basically says that some values were pulled out of the authors rear end for all he could tell, but then makes to me the most damning charge about the 1.0 black body emissivity the authors chose. I’d be interested in some scientist/engineer types opinion of this excerpt:

      “The emissivity is set to one i.e. they assume the “reactor” to be a black body. This choice is labeled “conservative”. Except that the truth seems to be going exactly in the opposite direction. The actual emissivity is lower than one and it’s the coefficient multiplying the fourth power of the absolute temperature to get the power. Because they seem to calculate the power from the measured temperature (the infrared camera is claimed to give the right temperature and automatically adjust the observed radiation for emissivity etc.; see page 7 of the paper), the actual power is actually much lower than [the calculated figure] 1609 watts. The emissivity of metals at similar reasonable temperatures seems to be 0.2 or so – something of this order – which reduces 1609 watts to something like 300 watts, pretty much equal to the consumption”

      • fortyniner

        The debunker not only seems to be barely able to speak English but is also talking scientific drivel. He also appears to be mixing up the pyrometer used by Rossi in some recent images, which does have built-in emissivity compensation, with the IR cameras used in the test, which do not. The white stick-on dots were used in the March tests to calibrate the IR cameras accurately.

        By using emissivity (ε) in the calculations contained in the paper, the testers are, as they claim, using the most conservative figure. Lower figures for ε would increase the calculated temperature, because less IR is emitted (relative to a perfect black body, ε=1) for any given temperature. Using a lower figure for ε would therefore increase the calculated energy output, not decrease it.

        That sort of gobbledegook relies on sounding authoritive in order to cover the fact it is actually nonsense.

        • fortyniner

          Correction: for “By using emissivity (ε) in the calculations..” please read “By using emissivity (ε) of 1 in the calculations..”

        • Tony McDougall

          fortyniner,

          Did you use TEX to produce that symbol for emissivity (ε)? Shame on you if you didn’t!

        • Shane D.

          49er,

          Thx.

          This guy criticizes Levi and team for improper scientific notation -watts instead of W, and then fails to do what he preaches when it comes to “emissivity”.

  • georgehants

    From Build The Enterprise
    Finally third party extensive test results are in on the LENR ECAT! This is going to have to break into the mainstream media over the next few days.
    Here is the scientific paper. Four professors from different parts of the world collaborated to do the study, and they ran the ECAT device for 120 hours of continuous operation. In the opening summary the paper writes:
    “Even by the most conservative assumptions as to the errors in the measurements, the result is still one order of magnitude greater than conventional energy sources.“
    In the conclusion they write:
    “… the results obtained place both devices several orders of magnitude outside the bounds of the Ragone plot region for chemical sources.“
    http://www.buildtheenterprise.org/huge-lenr-cold-fusion-news-test-results-in-on-ecat

  • lenrdawn

    When the dust has settled and the champagne is empty, what have we got? A report about an e-cat showing more energy out than in – measured at Rossi’s lab using Rossi’s equipment and made by Levi, Essen and a couple more people. That isn’t new. We’ve been there before and it didn’t lead to Obama throwing out the RE budget or Shell going bankrupt. It also didn’t lead to Rossi delivering millions of e-cats to happy customers. Being euphoric and declaring victory is a good feeling, but despite the risk of being labeled something unpleasant, I feel I have to call for a little caution here. ArXiv isn’t Nature or Science and there are still far too many open issues around this paper. So lets not get carried away too far. It may feel like the cat is in the bag – but let me remind you that it felt like that before and what followed were long months and years of nothing much. Some of us have been waiting since 1989, thinking with each new paper that this must be it. As yet – no.

    • georgehants

      lenrdawn, do you not feel that what we should be thinking about and doing, is to change a proven corrupt and incompetent science administration that has for 24 years debunked and denied a now proven Cold Fusion effect, and I do not include Mr. Rossi.
      The fault does not lie with P&F etc. who are the great, successful scientific pioneers doing their jobs, but with the horrific incompetence and attitude of science itself, it’s silly “premier” journals. peer review etc.etc.
      Stop blaming the “tools” that are the great scientists who work for the Truth and put right the incompetent corrupt people, who either do not have a clue how to make the most of those tools or distort and destroy for their own ends.

      • Job001

        Good response! My take on science is:

        Given corrupt concentrated wealth the science and IP process has changed because the old slow process is no longer trustworthy by itself, a parallel publication process is required.
        Simple conclusion:

        Alternate publication outside of corrupt media and biased peers in non-corrupt media with peers who promote honest science(not outcomes) and debate has become a necessary potentially less biased fast parallel process.

      • lenrdawn

        “and I do not include Mr. Rossi”

        Why don’t you include him but, apparently, others?

        • georgehants

          Because the situation with Cold Fusion is clear with exclusion the Rossi situation.
          Please comment just on the P&F criteria.

    • Tony McDougall

      I believe I captured AR’s view about publishing in Nature or Science here: http://www.zazzle.com.au/andrea_rossi_caricature_on_light_colors_shirt-235626897818949704

  • georgehants

    Andrea Rossi
    May 21st, 2013 at 2:38 AM
    Dear Blanco 69:
    I was sure that whatever the result, it surely had to be honest and really indipendent: none of the Professors are competitors, none made patents in competition with ours, all are totally indipendent from us under the economical point of view as well as economically indipendent from any competitor of us; they have no connections with our competitors, as we could certify. Their work has been hard, very conservative, professional and totally indipendent from us as well as our competitors and from big corporations or Government Entities that want to compete with us and made patents trying to copy us. This is why we trusted them to the point that we gave them our device leaving them totally free in a room deserted by us, at their complete disposal, where they did what they wanted without any limitation put by us. The sole limitation we put has been the impossibility to open the reactor and look at the internal structure of the E-Cat.
    About the audience: I am receiving many beautiful comments, to each of which I want to answer with my personal thanks. Thank you!
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      This is revealing Rossi thinks government is his competitor, “Government Entities that want to compete with us and made patents trying to copy us”. NASA?

  • andreiko

    Leave the calculations to Dr. Rossi over or you guys know it better?

    • fortyniner

      Second opinions are sometimes a good idea with Rossi’s calculations, but in this case they are not his calculations.

  • AB

    The position of the mole & snake variety of skeptics is now shifting from “measurement errors” to “everyone involved is conspiring to commit fraud”.

    • http://www.kaltefusion.tk/blog barty

      Exactly this!

      After I posted the linkt to the report in a few german forums with hard skeptics, now some people are shocked, but find it not independent that already known names of the LENR scene are the testers

    • barty

      This one is the hardest:

      http://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/267312#3171909

      Seems to be in rage this guy ;)

    • fortyniner

      Desperate times for the shills and closed-minded fanatics. You gotta go with what you’ve got – which sadly is very little now.

    • Roger Bird

      This conspiracy theory of the skeptics is an extension of their inability to read social/soft evidence, which is why they didn’t believe in the first place. I believed, but I don’t really have an E-Cat in front of me. I had to trust someone. I bet that those patho-skeptics also cannot dance and do not have very good social lives. Who wants to bet me?

      • fortyniner

        Nope. But then I can’t dance either.

        • Roger Bird

          Head cases have trouble dancing because they have to think everything through.

          • fortyniner

            That’s me – or, I resemble that remark, as you occasionally like to say!

            • Roger Bird

              It is difficult for head cases to change perspective. Fortunately, you already have the right perspective with regard to LENR, so it isn’t a problem. And has a certified head case, you are qualified to try to replicate Rossi. Get to it!!!

              • fortyniner

                Building extension, rebuilding classic car, refitting boat, earning crumbs, clearing up after wife and remaining daughter, wasting time on this blog – when do I get time to play in my workshop!

    • Anonymole

      So y’all think you’re out of the woods now do you? You’re all willing to just ignore all the bizarre, convoluted misdirection Rossi has put forth over the years and forgive him this instant per this singular report? A report, which I have admitted, lightens the spirit and looks to be a beacon through the forest. I was HAPPY to read this report. But I do NOT trust Rossi. His record does not deserve trust. His handling of this monumental discovery has been abhorrent, and there are hundreds of us who started out with high hopes but have felt thoroughly disheartened at the way we were all led on and on and on.

      In the beginning I myself posted my “order” on JONP and contacted Rossi directly requesting information on becoming a licensed installer. I wrote glowing pieces regarding the dawn of a new energy age. Read some of my pieces on Nickelpower. I was damned excited. So don’t classify me as some pathoskeptic. Don’t pigeonhole me as someone unable to tap into the social stream because I was tapped.

      But the fact remains that Rossi has failed to manage the expectations of the world on this subject. He has stretched the truth to breaking on the topic of factories, and shipping dates and progress, and partners, and on and on. And I stand by my assertion that given the impact LENR may have upon the world and the power Rossi may wield at this juncture, he still cannot be trusted.

      • GreenWin

        anonitrol, “…there are hundreds of us who started out with high hopes but have felt thoroughly disheartened at the way we were all led on and on and on.”

        There are hundreds of thousands if not millions who believed the hotfusionists when they told us 60 years ago clean, unlimited energy was 20 years away. They lied. And then they lied again and again and again. All at the cost to taxpayers of some $250+B. Do you honestly think any behind ITER, NIF or the now terminated MIT fusion project deserve trust?? I certainly don’t.

        Then again my opinion as yours will matter little to the parties.

      • Dickyaesta

        Poor you, what a suffering you have to admit you were wrong all along. Maybe it is ‘YOU’ who cannot in your right mind trust anybody and have to find something bizar to keep on NOT trusting. This independent or indipendent(A.R.) testing is flying in your face, grow up and accept one can be wrong sometimes! That is being adult, no more no less!!

      • Dickyaesta

        Finally I know how to get rid of this a bit sinister eye looking from my posts, but it doesn’t take away anything about your continuing ‘flauwekul’ which is dutch for manythings one should not be bothered about. To repeat my opinion with the rather sinister eye of course it is picture of part of the universe. But this blog seems to no accept me without the eye…

        Here the comment:
        Poor you, what a suffering you have to admit you were wrong all along. Maybe it is ‘YOU’ who cannot in your right mind trust anybody and have to find something bizar to keep on NOT trusting. This independent or indipendent(A.R.) testing is flying in your face, does it, poor thing. Grow up and accept one can be wrong sometimes! That is being adult, no more no less!!

      • fortyniner

        Anonymole, you sound like a jilted bride. Many regular commenters here are concerned by the level of fiction in some of Rossi’s earlier pronouncements, but recently he has made good on several fronts and perhaps we should give him a little credit for this.

        Dickyaesta’s advice is good.

        • Anonymole

          @Fortyniner, “jilted bride”, true that post does sound something like that; snubbed-at-the-alter as it were. But I assure you there has only been rational analysis of the continuously unfolding situation that has left me in a “jilted” state.

          This report is only a mild improvement to the dearth of factual information over the last 2+ years. As was apparent recent shipment of a big blue box to – somewhere. I’d be first in line to forgive and forget once a fully independent group, outside of Italy, outside of Rossi’s grasp, outside of Rossi’s own lab even, a group of Chinese, or MIT grads or better yet, allow a FULLY independent group invite S. Krivit in to participate in an evaluation. “Embrace your enemies.” If Rossi has the goods and is the saint you all claim him to be he should take no issue with proceeding along such lines. Such a tactic would remove all doubt. And on such a world changing precipice such doubt needs to be removed.

          And as to advice to “grow up” the only entities I know who trust unconditionally are dogs and children.

  • Omega Z
    • Thinks4Self

      If you have access to post on the thread you might ask about the possibility of Celani’s meters being spiked by Rossi’s Triac control system at the time of startup. Strange things can happen to electrical equipment in close proximity to RF energy emitting devices. I’m sure multiphase RF signals add all kinds of fun to the equation. Not my speciality.

      • Job001

        The electrical accuracy question was made before.

        Then instruments and power were accurate.

        No adequate reason to suspect either are incorrect, unless one has some strong bias.

        Given differing assessments, more independent testing will be funded by risk averse investors.

        • Thinks4Self

          I was referring to possible RF interference or induction causing Celani’s Geiger counters to spike, not any part of the ECat reaction.

  • sempervivum

    When they publish anything remotely connected to LENR in the mainstream news in Australia you will know that the ,”Cone of Silence”, has finally been broken.

    • fortyniner

      Exactly the same applies in the UK. Here we’re wedded to nuclear fission, and viable alternatives are automatically sidelined by the govt. For instance, tidal power (that could have cleanly generated much more power than all existing and proposed nuclear generation, at a fraction of the overall cost) has already been de-funded and sunk, largely on ‘conservation’ grounds with the co-operation of the RSPB.

      I don’t know what the agenda is in Oz, but there invariably seems to be a background of subtle dog whistles for the politicians and media to follow.

      • elasticbucket

        The movers are getting shook, potential world carbon tax/trading monies getting browner the closer LENR heads to commercialisation, energy markets propped up by flaccid support, and investors trying to find an angle to contain their current liquidity – nah, business as usual, no cone of silence. Dangerous times ahead? No doubt we’ll find out.

      • georgehants

        Morning Peter, can’t get used to the new name.
        By the way forty six was the best vintage I think. Ha.
        Are we talking about establishment corruption, no I can’t believe that, Money and Power has never caused any problems. Has it?

        • fortyniner

          Morning George. Actually it’s the same tag I used on newfuelandenergy.com, ECN in the early days and on a few other CF blogs, so you may have encountered it before. Admin could probably unblock my old ID but I may as well stick with this one now. ’46 – way before my time!

          You’re completely correct about establishment corruption, and there is obviously no such thing. The bankers, trilateral commission, bilderberg, big oil, big pharma, the US military and the rest just want the best for us all, and are practically public services. I’ll throw away my tinfoil hat immediately.

          • http://www.e-catworld.com admin

            Hi Peter, I’m sorry to say that I’m not able to figure out what is happening with your old ID. For some reason it triggers the autospam alarms, and I’m not sure why. I’m looking for a solution.

            • fortyniner

              Hi Admin. No worries – I may as well use the same id (fortyniner) across all the forums, so I’ll stay with it now. Your AI never did like me much.

              It might be useful to find out what the problem was though, in case the same horrible fate befalls someone else!

              -Peter

            • fortyniner

              Admin, just a thought – I use a number of different devices and browsers to post here, and can’t always remember which email address I’ve used previously if this hasn’t been stored by whatever platform I’m using. I’m wondering if your spam s/w might be reacting to the same ID using several different addresses? There was definitely a rather triumphant tone to the messages I received from it!

            • Barry

              Frank, did you disable the British accent filter?

    • Tony McDougall

      The Australian mainstream presstitutes rely on people like Dr Karl for their science coverage.

      You WILL know the cone of silence has been lifted when Dr Karl utters the words “I was wrong”!

    • Tony McDougall

      Sorry, I forgot to mention Dick (Earth wire current theorist) Smith as well :)

  • Thinks4Self

    For all of the board members who are in the USA please sign the newly created petition on the White house website.

    http://wh.gov/SyJC

    • Roger Bird

      I signed. But 100,000 signatures? It won’t happen for a long time. Although there will be 100,000 believers in the next few months, they won’t be believers so knowledgeable or passionate as to bother to sign a petition.

      • Thinks4Self

        My goal right now is 150 signatures first. That gets it published on the White House website. Right now the link is the only way to see the petition. I am hoping that getting it published might get the MSM to pay more attention as I believe some reporters surf the petitions for story ideas. The 100,000 signatures represents less than 1/20 of one percent of the population of the US so anything is possible in that regard.

    • Barry

      Thanks TfS, signed. Will send it around. Hopefully “We the People” can help make the United States a democracy again.

  • Christopher Calder

    Obama’s energy policy has been criminal. He needs to change course immediately.

    See the YouTube video

    *Biofuels, Windmills, and War*

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLNipF-qbSQ

  • Tony

    I went ahead and forwarded a link of the Forbes’ article to the US Department of Energy. Can’t hurt heh.

  • Alex

    3RD PARTY REPORT LINK:

    http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1305/1305.3913.pdf

    I don’t know if this is the real deal, but it appears to be.

    • Alex

      I’m like a day late aren’t I….

      • fortyniner

        Yup. Welcome back anyway!

      • georgehants

        Ha, hope you had a good day though. :)

  • MToll

    I wonder if the good news will make it into Obama’s presidential daily briefing tomorrow.

    • Kim

      Yea.

      They will get right on that.

      Kim

      • Adam Lepczak

        Sure, it will be like a first item on the agenda…
        .
        .
        .
        .
        To suppress

    • Thinks4Self

      Sign the petition to make him address it.

      http://wh.gov/SyJC

  • LilyLover

    And the attentive kirvit gets to be the forum slider on Forbes. GW, the orders aren’t lifted yet, right?
    Can it be used eventually to uproot the weed?

  • lukedc

    This brings me to the next question…

    What on earth is the catalyst that is enabling this whole thing to go on?????

    • Kim

      There was mention of an electrical
      wave form that was proprietary.

      Respect
      Kim

      • Glenn

        I wonder if the proprietary electrical wave form is related to the “SuperWave Principle” presented by Energetics Technologies as a means of enhancing the loading of Hydrogen into the metal lattice.

        For an explanation of this principle, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ2M_SE67RM at about 2:35

    • hunfgerh

      Assume that the fundamental-reaction is producing ultra-low-momentum
      neutrons. For that we need a hydrogen absorbing material: Pd, Ni, Ti
      or others; second hydrogen or a metal-hydrid wich gives hydrogen at low temperatur with the hydrogen absorbing metal.
      Possible reactions in such systems:

    • hunfgerh

      Assume that ultra-low-momentum neutrons are elementary in all LENR/CF-reactions. Synthesis of such neutrons seems possible in hydrogen absorbing materials Pd, Ni and others with pure hydrogen or hydrogen spending metallhydrids.
      In a first step this neutrons can react with excess hydrogen to deuterium, this reaction gives three times energy than for neutron production is needed. Because for neutron-production (e-capture on hydrogen)a superconductor is postulated, the temperature cannot
      much higher than its Tc is. Tc is calculated ~ 130 oC. “Tc = on/off switcher”

      In transmutation experiments to the groundsubstance – (Pd, Ni,hydrogen or metalhydrid)- “non” hydrogen-absorbing metalls were addet.
      Neutrons can react with these “non” hydrogen-absorbing metalls, building instabel metal-isotopes wich decay in a further processes.
      Here the temperature can reach more than 130 oC. In this case the neutron producing layer must cooled down to 130 oC.

  • Kim

    This is impressive.

    Mark Gibbs
    Forbes

    “The E-Cat has roughly four orders of magnitude more specific energy and three orders of magnitude greater peak power than gasoline!”

    That is a 3 inch cube of nickel!

    Could drive 20 miles on a gallon of gas

    20 times 1000 (3 orders of magnitude)= 20,000
    miles on 7.5 pounds of nickel!

    Respect
    Kim

    • SteveW

      That can’t be right (I hope not). In the United States alone, annual vehicle miles traveled is about 3 trillion. If you divide 3 trillion by 20,000 and multiply by 7.5 you come up with about 560,000 tons of nickel. That’s more than half the yearly production of nickel. If that’s the case, we just move from an oil based economy to a nickel based economy without enough nickel to supply all the worlds energy needs.

      • Tony

        Couple things, the density was 4 orders, so that would be 10,000 times not 1,000 times.

        Second, and more importantly, that nickel is not all consumed. Where with gasoline after you burn your tank you have an empty tank, with an E-cat tank you’d have a “depleted fuel rod” which still has the vast majority of the nickel remaining, just no longer in the state to be activated. So you then exchange the “depleted” fuel for a new one, and the powers that be reload the “depleted” one with more hydrogen.

        Some nickel will be lost according to E=mc2 (transmutation), but the vast majority is reused. I think I recall at the rate of consumption, 1% of nickel mined worldwide in a year would satisfy the entire human race’s power consumption for a year.

        • catbauer24

          one more thing :)

          so… they calculated based on excess energy after less than 5 days! Meaning, they could easily add another order of magnitude by extending to 48 days, and again to ~483 days (about 1 year, 3 months)

          • Omega Z

            Another Thing :)

            They were allowing for far more then the 3 grams of fuel & only over a 116 hours.

            Now calculate for 6 months/4300 hours & 10% to 15% of the 3 grams that would be used.

      • Roger Bird

        No, Kim is wrong.

    • artefact

      Numbers from the Pordenone report which are way to low because the 20 gramm did not get used up:

      “The other very interesting result of this report is the so-called “energy density”, given by the net energy produced (3268 kWh) divided the “active mass”, estimated in a conservative way in 20 grams. So, the energy density is (3268 : 20 =) 163.4 kWh/g, i.e. 163 MWh/kg, which – again – is an underestimate.

      For a comparison, the energy density of fossil fuels is typically in the range 9-15 kWh/kg, and the natural Uranium in a light water fission reactor has an energy density of 123.0 MWh/kg, lower than the E-Cat charge! Now, each of us can easily draw his conclusions: mine, is that mankind has “a new fire”…

    • Sanjeev

      The calculations are very very conservative because they take the whole mass of powder as the fuel mass (0.3 g taken as 1 g). The real energy density can be known only if we know the number of Ni/H atoms transmuted into something else and hence “lost” forever as fuel. The total mass of these lost atoms is the actual mass of fuel, which you can imagine will be tiny and hence the energy density will be astronomical.