LENR — The Next Phase

For over two years now the big question that has been discussed here on E-Cat World, day in and day out, is whether the E-Cat technology is really creating significant excess energy. In my estimation, the publication of the 3rd party report today has helped to answer that question for many — but there is a long way to go before there is general acceptance of the reality of LENR as a viable and superior source of energy. There is more evidence needed to convince many, and I am sure there are still plenty of people taking a wait-and-see attitude pending more information.

I have always thought that the publication of a decent 3rd party report would be a watershed moment in this story and would move us into a new phase of this fascinating saga — and I think that has happened. I have noticed that just from the amount of traffic I have seen on this site of the last couple of days that there is much more attention than normal. Hits on ECW have about doubled since the publication of the report, and seems to be holding quite steady — indicating a new level of interest in the technology.

My goal in starting E-Cat World in April 2011 was to bring attention to LENR in general, and especially the E-Cat, which I believed to be a very important discovery. I am of the opinion that Andrea Rossi has made a great breakthrough in the development of his invention, and that it is something that could provide real solution to some of the pressing energy problems the world faces.

My feeling now is that with the publication of this report there needs to be more awareness about LENR and it’s potential for benefiting the world. I would like to see this and other websites which cover LENR play a part in helping to spread awareness, especially when there seems to be little attention being paid by more influential mainstream sites.

There are many people from all over the world who are feeling energized and positive about this technology and who want to do something to move the cause along. One of the greatest assets of E-Cat World is its readership, many of whom I have found to be intelligent and capable people who believe in the potential of LENR and want to see it put to good use. I’d like to see if we might be able to engage in some efforts together to share the news about important things in the field, such as the report that has just been published.

So what can people who are supporters of LENR do? What resources do you think we can provide the public at large about the E-Cat and LENR? What are effective ways to spread news and information? I have some ideas which I will be discussing as time goes on, but I’d like to get the views of readers here. Perhaps we can organize somehow to do some useful work together. Any thoughts on the matter? Also, feel free to contact me privately too at [email protected] if you have any thoughts you’d like to share.

  • Nick Pourmi

    Important notice:
    The report acknowledges: ”In that experiment the device was destroyed in course of experimental run, when the steel cylinder containing the active charge overheated and melted. … The resistor coils were run at about 1 kW”.
    Is it possible, under the known physics laws, for such a steel cylinder to melt from only the electrical input of 1 kW?
    If NO, then this could be taken as an indirect proof of an unknown energy (reaction).

    • Roger Bird

      I have dealt with that level of wattage twice recently in order cut down my electric bill. Our clothes dryer and the drying element in our dish washer use roughly that much, like 1.2 kW. There is NO WAY that 1 kW could melt a steel cylinder the size of what we have seen. I suppose if the steel cylinder was much, much smaller, perhaps; like 3 inches by 1 inch. This is why I have been trying to get people to understand that there were 3 tests, not two, and all three tests were successful.

    • stuey81

      where are the pictures of the melted hot cat? all i saw was a glowing hot ecat?

  • kasom

    If it were really up to have further proofs for the public, I think the US Partner would be in the role of doing marketing to prepare the market for the products they want to sell in the near future.

    One could just do something remarkable an talk about, the press will catch it up. Guerilla marketing of larger scale….

    Only one idea for example: Put one or more e-Tigers in ssm into the circulation/heating unit of a really big swimmingpool perhaps this at NASA Houston

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/NASA_Neutral_Buoyancy_Laboratory_Panorama.jpg

    23 million liters of water to heat, nobody will talk about meassuring tolerances any longer.

    I’m quite sure, everybody finds another example in his/her wildest dreams.

  • V.p.S.

    // Looks like my comment was lost in the moderation, trying again…

    Rossi said it once and many people on this forum basically agreed – the only E-Cat evidence good enough for the breakthrough on a huge scale will be a working commercial installation of the E-Cat open to the public. Now, I already mentioned it earlier on the forum: for the ECW readers from Germany, Switzerland or Austria (or may be even northern Italy / southern France) there is a great chance to help it happen. There is a running joint crowdfunding project of the Swiss and German E-Cat licensees that targets to collect enough funds for buying an industrial E-Cat and to install it in some heat consuming factory in the Switzerland. The E-Cat itself will be owned by the small investors participating in the crowdfunding project, but the factory owner will also invest slightly less than a half of the E-Cat price and will agree to open the installation place to the investors/owners of the E-Cat.

    Now, the good news are:
    – currently almost 300 kEUR of the target 600 kEUR has been already pledged
    – many investors were ready to double the pledge if there would be a positive 3rd party report
    – Rossi knows about this project and agreed to support it (organisationally/logistically)

    The last issue of the Swiss .NET journal organizing and promoting this project, reports on the progress: http://www.borderlands.de/net_pdf/NET0313S41.pdf (includes a link to the participants registration form)

    The way I see it, if this crowdfunding project succeeds, then with the Rossi’s support we may see already 4-5 months later a public E-Cat installation. As for other Leonardo corp. customers, nobody knows, how long will it take for them to issue a press release. May be half a year, may be a year. The photos from the last delivery were blocked by the customer and may never show up until the official press release.

    To Admin / Frank: may be you’d consider this worthy to put into a separate thread to attract more attention.

    • http://www.e-catworld.com admin

      Thanks VPS — I am actively looking into ways to do something like this.

  • Ivan

    Create a project on kickstarter. 1kk for testing.

    Create an open test with live stream and 3rd party specialists to demonstrate it’s real.

    Create a project on Kickstarter. 2kkk for production purposes.

    Become rich as f*** and give free energy for everybody.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    A positive article in Finnish “Tekniikka ja Talous” (Technology and Economy) entitled “Cold fusion device of an Italian inventor amazes scientists”. It’s a bit similar magazine than the Swedish NyTeknik. Most Finnish engineers read it because it’s included in their trade union membership. http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/innovaatiot/italialaisen+keksijan+kylmafuusiolaite+allistyttaa+tutkijoita/a903328

    • John Littlemist

      Let’s see if my provocative ITER comment on that article passes the moderation.

  • Andrew Macleod

    Krivit updated his debunking attempt. [May 21, 1603: Article updated to include question and answer about who built the reactor.]. Proof that he is leaving out portions of the q&a that don’t help what he is trying to portray. He is also foaming at the mouth so much he now thinks the year is 1603.

    • Timar

      LOL!

    • artefact

      If he gets paid for that it must be a lot of money.

    • clovis

      +1

  • R101

    I’ve submitted a “Tip Off” to ABC news (Australian). It would be good if any other Australians on here could do likewise.

    To do so clicky here: http://www.abc.net.au/news/contact/

    • Linda

      Somebody should call 60 Minutes.

      • stuey81

        someone should contact ACA, 60 minutes, SBS, hopefully one of them picks up the story

  • John Littlemist

    Finnish newspaper “Tekniikka & Talous” (Technology & Economy) covers the 3rd party report:

    http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/innovaatiot/article903328.ece

    Tekniikka & Talous and Ny Teknik have the same publisher, Talentum corporation.

  • Thomas M

    Would it not be the best way to show that it works to build a self-contained system with some sort of generator that can covert the heat produced from the e-cat to electricity and self loop the system?
    Then people can see the system work and don’t need to see inside of the e-cat and control box.

    • fortyniner

      Unfortunately there is no combination of thermal-electric conversion and energy storage that would make this possible with a COP of under 6 (or of 2.5 in the case of the H2 type).

  • georgehants

    From Next Big Future.
    Rossi LENR convinces some but many are not convinced and say it is a fraud
    http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/05/rossi-lenr-convinces-some-but-many-are.html

  • georgehants

    From Newser
    Inventor: I’ve Cracked Cold Fusion
    Hold your applause: Paper has not been peer-reviewed
    http://www.newser.com/story/168291/inventor-ive-cracked-cold-fusion.html

  • andreiko

    Multinational companies are the preferred way for the e-cats and not politics.It seems to me makes sense at multinational companies that qualify for the further exploitation of the e-cats sharp questions to ask and the answers of these parties to deposit on this site.Science journalists take your accountability to humanity!

  • RenzoB

    article in italian with some questions to prof Levi
    http://it.ibtimes.com/articles/49127/20130521/fusione-fredda-e-cat-andrea-rossi.htm

    IBTimes contacted Giuseppe Levi, nuclear physicist at the University of Bologna and one of the signers of the study. “As stated in the article, we are faced with a non-conventional source of energy” – the researcher said.

    Professor Levi praised the transparency with which eng. Rossi has allowed him and other scholars to test: “We have been able to operate in complete autonomy and freedom. From the outset it was clear that we could publish the results whatever they were.”

    On the nature of the reaction that allows the E-Cat to work prof Levi has reiterated that it is not a proper chemical or nuclear reaction: “Exactly. Definitely not chemical in nature. – Levi said- The absence of radiation makes us say that if it is a nuclear power it is still new in nature from those known. ”

    With regard to the production of energy the results of the test are impressive and Professor Levi said: “These data are contained in the publication. Placing yourself in the most conservative case you have energy density ten times greater than conventional ones. But this certainly an extreme understatement. Values ​​are published in the text which are probably more realistic. ”

    Finally, at our specific question, if it considers that the E-Cat could revolutionize the energy production, prof Levi responded with a terse “Yes, without doubt.”

    • artefact

      Wow ( 😉 )

    • evleer

      And once again: Wow

  • RenzoB
    • artefact

      The same error like with P&F:

      “3.Place a gamma-ray detector around the device. Given the lack of shielding and the energies involved in nuclear reactions, gamma-rays should be copious and easy to detect.

      • AB

        They are judging the claim according to theory, not the experiment.

        • artefact

          Yes, according to existing theory where LENR does not work…

  • DaPhys

    I read the report again and this document brings more questions than answers. It is known that the fuel in the e-cat is exclusively based on the Ni-62 isotope. Can someone confirm that the production of Ni-62 requires much energy? I guess that Ni-62 is produced via chemical separation based on mass differences, a process known to consume less than reactors or accelerators, but most probably far from negligible. Therefore I’m puzzled that the energy used to produce the fuel was not taken into account in the calculation made by the experts. Thank you for any answers.

    • What if

      About $10 a charge.

  • Robyn Wyrick

    I think, if news organizations are interested in keeping out of this story, they do so at little professional peril. There is little to check bad journalism.

    However, noting New Energy Times’ recent story – didn’t want to give the satisfaction of linking to it – “Rossi Manipulates Academics to Create Illusion of Independent Test” – it just comes off as bizarre.

    Rossi must have mystical powers to manipulate these researchers. Somehow this lone man, to no apparent material gain, and with no apparent victim to his fraud, has manipulated seven+ scientists (credentialed scientists, unlike the blogger at NET) into believing they were being independent. When in actuality they are paid and mind-controlled by Rossi.

    Because Rossi is Darth Vader.

    So, unless there is a valid critique of the methods of the researchers, Rossi’s critics will ignore the independent report, or they will concoct a conspiracy theory of their own.

    Mostly it has been silence. Except Gibbs at Forbes, no major publication has said a word. Perhaps they are doing a careful review. That is the best that can be hoped for on that front.

    The next stage for Rossi, as he has asserted continually, has to be production. I see little to be gained through continued nods to academia.

    For those of us who have followed this story, besides moral support, and the occasional good idea posted on JONP, I don’t think we make much of a difference. I think Rossi has been vindicated. Someone else thinks not. It doesn’t much matter, as far as the E-Cat is concerned.

    I think our best path is to support the efforts of the MFMP. Rossi is on a different path. The folks at MFMP are seeking an open source approach, and individuals can contribute. That’s my thought currently.

    Oh, except, “da.mn, those hot cat photos are exciting!”

  • Sergio

    Mainstream is picking it up definitely, register just went public;
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/22/e_cat_test_claims_success_yet_again/

    • artefact

      It seems no one in the comments read the report.

      • R101

        What a bunch of trolls 🙁

      • fortyniner

        That right – the comments are uninformed and mostly based on misunderstandings and incorrect assumptions. As usual.

        • Roger Bird

          Then, since the comment section is opened to everyone, it is our job to correct them, nicely. Stop bitching and get to work.

      • Owen

        Those are some of the stupidest comments I’ve ever seen. Seriously, they sound brain damaged. Right up there with YouTube comments.

  • astralprojectee

    Why do we need to covert people that are hard headed. Don’t waste your time. Just wait until Rossi is selling e-cats. There is a little benefit to trying to convert even open minded people probably. If Rossi has what he says he has, then I am sure he will have little problem selling it, or promoting it once he starts actually selling the e-cats.

    I know Frank didn’t want to hear that.

  • Roger Bird

    I guarantee that saying hurtful things at people who disagree with us will harm our cause. This will merely create more barriers in their minds. This is a mental crusade. Some people will be won over by our explaining things to them. Some will be won over by showing them tests and demos. Some will be won over by PhD physicists talking up the E-Cat and LENR. Some will need to see it for themselves. NO ONE will be won over by calling them stupid, patho-skeptic, paid shills of Big Oil or any other malicious names. If you want to promote the E-Cat and LENR in general, you must be considerate of other people’s feelings and assume that they are doing the best that they are able to understand.

    [I am just as guilty as anyone else of not doing this.]

    • Bob

      I agree.
      Even the dull and ignorant can have a point of view, and sometimes it just happens that in spite of their dullness and apparent ignorance, they are right.
      If a point of view is disagreed with, then the right thing to do is explain why you think they are wrong.
      If the post is clearly designed to be provocative then simply read it, smile and then ignore it.
      Even the provocative posts can be instructive in that they are a window into some people’s thinking.

      • MK

        I partially aggree.
        As long as the posting is done in opennes and without maliciousness, its OK.
        Some postings are just placed to provoke or destruct.
        It is difficult to clearly detect these. BUT: ecatnews had been inactive for some time just because of these postings.
        So I feel that some self protection is needed sometimes, and somebody clearly behaving like a troll (though maybe even if he is none) needs to be removed to keep the forum working.

    • freethinker

      In the best of worlds you are right.

      But this possibly not the best of worlds. There are indeed people who are paid money to express opinions on the internet, regardless if they themselves share that opinion. Shills or whatever name you would like to call them. There are also people who are pathological skeptics, as there are blind believers. It all depends what side you are looking from.

      If such people, being skillfull in verbalising their opinion, they will cause a lot of harm. People casually visiting sites for information may be negatively influenced, if there are no voices that go against.

      With that said, I agree, a low key is better, but realize that long threads with relentless factual arguing with these people will only further their cause (and sometimes wallet), strenghten their negative believes (that
      you cant really change anyway).

      Sometimes spelling it out is better than beating around the bush.

      This is not over yet.

  • pachu on Xperia

    As far I can guess the next interesting event is the DGT live demo at niweek in august.The funny thing is that maybe the paper boosts interest in the competitors.

    Also DGT has several test results stored in NDAs I’m waiting some move from them.

  • Alex

    Raise money for a commercial during prime time Thursday night just before the nightly News. Make it about the possible uses, and about Energy independence.

  • palace planetarian

    The National Press club in Washington, DC USA would be a grest place for a press conference. C-SPAN the commercial free/but privately funded TV network of record would gladly make the audio and video availablefor free and available on the internet indefinitely. Hundreds of news organizations from around the world frequent the press club and an infinite variety of topics are presented there in open, fair forums.

    It would be nice if Rossi would attend, name his customer and get an endorsement describing the wonders the E-Cat is performing. Then he could finsncing for a global auction, still respecting the rights of those who bought territories. The resulting flood of cash for E-Cats would solve his money prolems and trsnsform the world.

    Absent that, the third party report is a step that has answered many of my questions but still left others. That is why bringing the thirparty team to Washington is the intermediate step. All the progress is still being ignored. This is an effective way to break through the noise to be heard and get the attention of those who who still refuse to take Rossi seriously.

    Without demonstrated success in public where all possble fraud or error hss been eliminated to the satisfaction of those that matter progress will continue to be slow. It is time for something different like presenting the third party testers and other experts at the National Press Club in Wadhington in a Forbes Inc. Dponsored forum.

  • clovis

    Hi,Frank,
    I like this new idea, heck we have connections now,smile.
    WE NEED SOMETHING BIG, an attention getter, i’m sure we can come up with something good, with the talent we have in here and around the blog trail, we could do something, like a information bomb, lol, file a law suit against some one for suppression, that would do it,

  • V.p.S.

    Rossi said it once and many people on this forum basically agreed – the only E-Cat evidence good enough for the breakthrough on a huge scale will be a working commercial installation of the E-Cat open to the public. Now, I already mentioned it earlier on the forum: for the ECW readers from Germany, Switzerland or Austria (or may be even northern Italy / southern France) there is a great chance to help it happen. There is a running joint crowdfunding project of the Swiss and German E-Cat licensees that targets to collect enough funds for buying an industrial E-Cat and to install it in some heat consuming factory in the Switzerland. The E-Cat itself will be owned by the small investors participating in the crowdfunding project, but the factory owner will also invest slightly less than a half of the E-Cat price and will agree to open the installation place to the investors/owners of the E-Cat.

    Now, the good news are:
    – currently almost 300 kEUR of the target 600 kEUR has been already pledged
    – many investors were ready to double the pledge if there would be a positive 3rd party report
    – Rossi knows about this project and agreed to support it (organisationally/logistically)

    The last issue of the Swiss .NET journal organizing and promoting this project, reports on the progress: http://www.borderlands.de/net_pdf/NET0313S41.pdf (includes a link to the participants registration form)

    The way I see it, if this crowdfunding project succeeds, then with the Rossi’s support we may see already 4-5 months later a public E-Cat installation. As for other Leonardo corp. customers, nobody knows, how long will it take for them to issue a press release. May be half a year, may be a year. The photos from the last delivery were blocked by the customer and may never show up until the official press release.

    To Admin / Frank: may be you’d consider this worthy to put into a separate thread to attract more attention.

  • palace planetarian

    The development of the E-Cat is a near miracle considering it has happened outside the normal mechanisms of modern science. So, he perseveres and succeeds, sort of, without a a chance for a patent. Of course that is because of a “Catch 21” that is are fororiginal, new scientific and technical creations. But, only as long as they can be understood by standard, consensus, conventional science, certainly by anything revolutionary.

    So Rossi, is caught trying to be Thomsd Edison without any real protection for his intellectual proprrty. That is, even if it can save the world. For those who like me are not invested in the old order and are willing to see Rossi as crefitable, the question is what can we do?

    The answer is, put the E-Cat and the third party team in front of the public. If Rossi continues to refuse any public demonstrstion until some one else approves. Then bring the Third party team to Washington for a press conference hosted by Mark Gibbs and Assoc. At Forbes. It would help to create a US Non-profit corp or find one that already exists willing to raise enough money to make it attractive for all concerned to participate including some of the other LENR stars. The key is paying the third party team enough to justify confronting the inevitable attacks they will face. Will they and the E-Cat survive? In the absence of a public demonstration, especially one by a satisfied customer, it is probably the best that be done for now.

    • Andrew Macleod

      I recall someone else did this with a different invention. Joseph Papp’s Noble Gas Engine. During the public demonstration an overseer thought he saw some trickery so he unplugged something. Papp was furious and told him that was dangerous and to plug it back in…… Well he didn’t and the device exploded killing and hurting onlookers.

      • Andrew Macleod

        Well my account was a little off but here’s the story by
        Eugene F. Mallove. http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html

        • palace planetarian

          That demonstrstion is not like what I proposed. I proposed a demonstrstion of a working e-cat presented by a satisfied customer. The problem is that the opposition will discredit the third party report because it is not peer reviewed and essentially Rossi is presenting a magic black box that no one understands running on a secret recipe. That can only be countered if Rossi prevents complete acess by a demonstration of its value e.g. heating a factory or providing electricity to a village. Then anyone can see that the device works with minimal unput and no measureable release of radiation while Rossirights could be protected.

        • palace planetarian

          That demonstrstion is not like what I proposed. I proposed a demonstrstion of a working e-cat presented by a satisfied customer. The problem is that the opposition will discredit the third party report because it is not peer reviewed and essentially Rossi is presenting a magic black box that no one understands running on a secret recipe. That can only be counteredby a demonstration by someone, a customer, other than Rossi. An effective E-Cat demo might be heating a factory or providing electricity to a village. Exterior access could be available to anyone. So it could be determined that the device works with minimal unput and no measureable release of radiation while Rossirights could be protected.

          • palace planetarian

            A. Rosdi is a heroic technically and scientifically savy individual inventor entrepreneur, to me. He is a living example that anyone who claims the consensus scientific understanding is theone and only truth is actuslly betrsying science. Empirical science is based an a skeptical philosophy that settled science only reflects our best current understanding and can always be replaced by an updated, more accurate view. So, a real empirical scientidt would acknowledge the possibility that it was possible that a new and better energy source could have been found outside any current system. That is if can be shown to work for real, uncorrupted customers. As long as the E-Cat is a black box with a secret recipe, whether I like it or not, Rossi is going to need a customer only interested in what is good for that customer to show that it works and is safe.

            • palace planetarian

              The members of the third party evaluators are suffering attcks on thier veracity, integrity and academic qualifications. They need to defend themselves to protect their family and academic standing and they need to do it in the USA.

              Bill Wood

  • Omar Gomez

    Next phase products to the market rossi have a slim time frame and I hope they know it. 12 to 18 months to flood the market.

    Power generators from 5 to 25kw and 50 to 250kw. Thats where the money is. Not in home heaters. No in MW units.

    If it really works as the report said no matter the patents or certifications. So many things in the world would change. Most of the people here dont have an idea to live without electricity and the boost it will provide to poor countries.

    • Mcloki

      That’s exactly it. Strap these thins onto electrical generating turbines of all sizes and start taking pre orders. Work with Siemens or Philips.

    • MStone

      No way this gets to personal use, other than special application, for a long time.

      If the government is smart, cough, it will constructively nationalize the energy sector to unfluck the debt crisis. It would work like this. Energy prices are locked in at a reasonable rate…say like now. And gasoline’esqe prices are locked in at, say, 2 dollars a gallon. Now…e-cat energy is nearly free. 500 billion a year spent on energy in the US in general. Another 500 billion a year spent on gasoline. Thats constructively a trillion dollar a year tax without dramatically changing our way of life right now. So, you fix global warming, the energy crisis, and the debt crisis in about 20 years without any major shifts in living standards by leveraging this new technology. Impressive, No?

      • Roger Bird

        Any time one proposes government price controls it is not impressive.

      • Owen

        Great idea. Let’s send another trillion to the global banksters and government scammers. That should fix everything.

  • Kim

    This was posted as a line item at Before it’s News web site

    “Rossi LENR convinces some but many are not convinced”

    Should this not Read:

    Rossi LENR convinces many but some are not convinced.

    Respect
    Kim

    • Barry

      Time to leave the skeptics behind. We can only send them so many boats and helicopters (old joke).

      • fortyniner

        I wish we could, but they are still popping up all over the place with fake quibbles about emissivity and input power measurement, or outright accusations of fra*d, which need to be countered for the sake of new readers.

        • Dickyaesta

          Peter, returning a moment to you being unable to use your former self(PeterRoe) here.

          I was trying to get rid of the somewhat sinister eye in my posts and I used another email-dir with the same user name and le voila my post went into cyberspace and has not been heard from since.

          So probably that is what happened to your Peter Roe. Cheers we will get used to the new one as well, what counts is your presence, which is much appreciated in these quarters. THX

          • fortyniner

            That’s very kind, thank you.

            I agree that it is likely that using different email addresses seems to be the ‘trigger’ that got my previous tag blocked. It’s not a problem – I use (and have used for some time) the ‘fortyniner’ tag elsewhere. I’ll just have to try a bit harder to remember which email address I should be using, to stop this one going the same way!

            Re. the icon, if you click on the black tag at the top right, you will get a drop down menu that will allow you to log in to your account, where you can delete the icon if you want.

            • fortyniner

              Ah – I’ve just clicked on the tab and then on ‘Edit my profile’, but the ‘Profile’ link no longer seems to allow changes, so please ignore my final paragraph.

    • Roger Bird

      It should read: “Rossi’s E-Cat convinces some, but some are still too stupid to look at the evidence.”

  • Stevie Brooks

    I seriously hope that *if* another round of tests on the Ecat are performed this summer, that the team does a full control experiment on the reactor. This would go a long way towards convincing those who question the accuracy of the tests. As predicted by some on this site, there was no direct calorimetry done on the E-cat and it seems unlikely that will happen in a follow up test because it would require encasing the whole reactor in some sort of controlled flow environment.

    What they should do instead is have a double blind test of the machine. Rossi should be instructed to prepare two identical reactors except that one would lack the “special catalyst”. One person should have the job of knowing which reactor is the “dummy” and that person should take a long holiday in Antarctica during test. Then the exact same experiment should be run on both reactors. If the Ecat is for real, then the results should be clear.

    The “dummy” test in the first report must have been conceived by a real dummy. It shows nothing. The real issue with the report is the assumptions made about translating thermal imaging into energy density.
    Repeatedly stating that their assumptions are conservative is not enough because they didn’t give evidence that they can do indirect power calculations on a very hot metal tube heated by high power resistors.

    By the way, Rossi should have absolutely no interest in doing another test at this point. I doubt he will. I hope I am wrong. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (at least outside of the comment sections).

    • Kim

      I respect and agree with you dialogue.

      Rossi was gracious enough to give full
      reporting and testing to these people of
      knoweldge.

      I think its time just to sell and let the
      customer report.

      It may take a long long time, but in the
      end there will be no doubt.

      Just like the wright brothers, they had
      to see it fly for themselves.

      Respect
      Kim

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      See, here we go again, after seven demonstrations and tests, there is someone who thinks he has this perfect test that will prove to his satisfaction….unending….my favorite is still the one suggesting they remove the ground wire from the power source. (:

      • dsm

        Hasn’t it occurred to you from day 1 that a proper 3rd party validation was *all* that was *ever* needed ?

        The reason so many folk here do come up with such suggestions is simply because Andrea always delivers a ‘bit’ of proof.

        D

      • Stevie Brooks

        Correction Bernie. There has been exactly one test that suggests a higher power density than plutonium. And the methodology used to produce this claim leaves much to be desired (as the authors state in the report!). My suggestion is to remove some of the doubt in the measurement. I never suggested that it will prove the Ecat a scam.

        If a second test with more careful calorimetry shows a much lower power density, you can claim the test was rigged by Exxon and the Rand company. It is a win-win for conspiracy theorists. Personally, I would like to know the truth, and even if the report is completely true, we have estimates spanning two or three orders of magnitude.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Stevie Brooks……How long have you been following Rossi and his E-Cat? There have been numerous demonstrations, after each one, we heard, he should have tested it this way and that way, if Rossi followed all the testing advise, that is all he would be doing….testing to satisfy skeptics.

          • DaPhys

            How long have you been following Rossi? Rossi has a long history of having fooled people with false claims. His (petrol) dragon was a huge scam, let’s hope that his mouse&cat is not.

            The report does bring more questions than answers. I’ve already reviewed hundreds of scientific articles and if I have to review this article I would reject it, not because the e-cat is not real or because it does not produce any thermal energy or because I have preconceived ideas on LENR, but simply because the design of the study does not fulfill standard scientific requirements, and at the end the evidence given by the report is (unfortunately) close to none.

            • George N

              Scientific standards are only used to lobby research money from paperwork loving/political posturing government bureaucrats. Rossi is not seeking public money, therefore he only needs to meet more reasonable/efficient/sane engineering standards. People who love top down control (because they are better at politics rather than results) always try to slow down their competition by nit-picking the process rather than focusing on the big picture — the end result. That is why they hate researchers that avoid public funding. Therefore the scientific bureaucrats constructed the patent catch-22: new inventions need to be peer reviewed before getting a parent, but then the inventor risks someone stealing his invention without any legal protections… I hope Rossi is able to beat this catch-22, he’s been able to beat the odds so far. Also, rossi’s petro dragon was not a scam, it is a process that new startups are using to convert carbon based materials to bio-diesel (now that rossi’s patent has expired) — rossi’s mistake with petro dragon is that he underestimated the effort it would take to scale up his production, therefore the waste material he took in from customers sat too long and began to slowly leak. Rossi also didn’t account for the Italian mob disliking the potential competition of Rossi in the waste disposal business, which slowed him down in court and every other step.

            • rolando

              Can you please point out which bit in the report does not fulfill standard scientific requirements?

    • Paul Hunt

      The guys at MFMP have ideas how to wrap a water calorimeter around the hotcat. It would be great if they got a chance.

      • fortyniner

        The HT2 prototype comes with a flange, presumably so it can be bolted to a box heater or boiler – or to an insulated tank of water. I suspect that Rossi may already be preparing for water calorimetry, if he hasn’t already done it.

        The question is, how much heat can be extracted from the reactor by active cooling before the LENR reaction is quenched, or conversely, how much additional electrical power would need to be supplied to maintain the reaction under these circumstances.

    • Warthog

      Calorimetry WAS done, just differently than has previously been used in LENR. Determination of heat losses by radiation and convection through thermal imaging is perfectly well understood and used daily around the world. The high operating temperature and heat output simply makes it possible to do calorimetry in this fashion. Previously the heat output and temperature differences were tiny, so more sensitive means of measurement were required. Krivit is technologically illiterate and is making a fool of himself with these sorts of comments.

    • Omega Z

      Stevie Brooks

      They ran a dummy test. Using the same Hot-Cat with the Ni/H charge removed.
      It did not produce excess power.

  • psi

    I wonder what those with greater technical expertise think of Lubos Motl’s critique, here: http://motls.blogspot.com/2013/05/tommaso-dorigo-impressed-by-cold-fusion.html#more.

    • GreenWin

      Motl fails to understand the emissivity assignment used by the paper’s authors and goes on to embarrass himself when he is corrected by comment. He then makes himself a fool by concluding the visible and measured radiation from the reactor is the sole result of the 300W electrical input. One need only LOOK at the red hot reactor cylinder to reckon this wrong.

      Motl is a AGW fanatic and lover of windmills. The appearance of a new form of nuclear energy sans dangerous radiation has so disrupted his narrowed mindview, he writes with the shrieking zeal of disemboweled banshee. He is especially upset with CERN’s Tommaso Derigo admission that he is impressed by the E-Cat’s verification.

      Like Michael Mann of climategate, these self-anointed priests of science hate when fellow priests wander off script. Derigo quotes the conservative estimate of power yield in the paper as the most impressive finding for him. This admission has caused Motl to suffer a form of neural-apoplexy; you can virtually see the spittle sprayed across his blog.

      • Roger Bird

        GreenWin, I did know that you were such a sarcastic Shakespeare.

      • psi

        Hey thanks Greenwin. I appreciate your analysis.

      • Andrew Macleod

        Very colour full descriptive wording!

      • Blanco69

        Nice one GW. In 20 years time school kids will have essays to write based on that gem.

        • fortyniner

          Especially I think, “he writes with the shrieking zeal of disemboweled banshee.” Love it.

      • Timar

        Motls arrogance and madness has nothing to do with him being a proponent of the theory of global warming, which is indeed proven beyond any reasonable doubt. It has to be understood against the background of his professional failure (he was fired from Harvard for his outspoken racist views, which put an end to his career).

      • Bob

        🙂 🙂 “you can virtually see the spittle sprayed across his blog”
        So what do you really think Greenwin?
        I do love reading a post which makes me smile.
        This would have made me smile even if it was about me. 🙂

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      I stopped reading after he called a respected colleague, “a lunatic”

      • psi

        Yes, he also slandered all Italians as mobsters, and when a reader called him on it he said he didn’t understand the point. Duh. But I was looking for some comment on his claims about emmisivity and power output.

      • AlainCo

        and you don’t hear him talk of women and blacks…
        He lose his position in US for such non-PC outing.

        anyway he make some very good point. just have to sort.

        LENR and othet scientific controversy taught me to stop judging people as a whole… people have competences, beliefs, position, interest, prejudices, ignorance…

        If I have been judging LENr scientists like some judge lubos, or rossi, or Sterling, or McKubre,… I would not have accepted the facts around LENR.

        this is why I have quite no beliefs, just some prejudices I fight, many conviction that are suspended to evidences and can change in one day, yet stay stable, and many domain of doubt where my “best bet” is changing all the time…

        Lubos, Krivit, MY, are example of people locked in a position… they conviction started rational, but get a groupthink, a denial…

        Since I change my position and conviction often, I can say it is internally painful… i can change twice a day on some detail, twice a year on more important points…

        and rossi is one of that hard bet… not the reality of e-cat and of LENR.

        I am very concerned after Rossi and Defkalion recent data, about industrial readiness of LENR technology.
        Seems still prototypes, if not still garage (not lab) toys.

        Seems not more solid that first Wright brothers plan, or first Cugnot steam-car.

        • fortyniner

          I agree with your assessment, and think that some commenters may be getting a little carried away. Prior to recent developments I think its fair to say that a number of observers including myself were having some difficulty with certain of Rossi’s claims and statements, some of which are undeniably fictions. There is therefore some relief in receiving confirmation in a short time of several of his more important claims, and (sometimes renewed) excitement is natural.

          However, we must remember that so far what we have seen is clear confirmation of anomalous heat, but NOT any indication that this heat can be used a source of power. The LENR reaction obviously depends on a thermal stimulus, and any active cooling system designed to extract power would reduce this considerably, perhaps ending the reaction. This is particularly true of the present deign, which places the electrical heating elements between the reactor and the external environment, so that the heaters would be subject to direct cooling by any external coolant.

          The gas cat design looks more hopeful from this POV, and may be the area that Rossi or the partner will focus on, as the largest currently available market outside of military applications would be the conversion of existing power generators (gas, coal, oil, perhaps even nuclear) to LENR. Of these, conversion of gas boilers would probably be the simplest and most profitable, partly because gas supplies would of course already be available, and also because gas boilers represent the larger part of the current powergen market.

          • GreenWin

            I agree with both Alain and Peter. The hysteria exhibited by Motl will repeat across blogs written to coddle science by consensus. These increasingly wild assertions about lack of independence (kirvit et al) or erroneous measurement are the cries of severely tested egos.

            As for the E-Cat technology, I am somewhat more optimistic about engineering solutions. As Peter suggests, should the electrical heating process become unstable under coolant flow, a natural gas source may prove more dynamic. Balancing the input demand under coolant flow, appears to be an engineering problem well suited to thermodynamic specialists.

            Hopefully just this expertise is available to Rossi via his corporate partner. Next challenge is to apply the LENR heat to a boiler to make steam. I vaguely recall Rossi stating he can make dry steam at 20 bar. Enough to turn a small turbine which in combined cycle can yield 35% efficiency.

            At any rate, the shrieking will not end, and the good doctor needs to remain vigilant, focused now on generating useful units of electricity. I would not be surprised to see an alliance (as with FC/CHP-makers) between E-CatHT and a NG utility. Such alliances are working in Japan between Panasonic, Toyota, Toshiba and Tokyo Gas Co.

            • Omega Z

              GW

              I think Rossi has already considered the coolant flow reaction situation.

              The double heat transfer process would indicate this. Heating Oil which then heats the water would likely be for the purpose of retaining heat balance & not disrupting the Reactor cycle.

    • HHiram

      Lubos’s only technical critique is of the emissivity factor, which the authors assume to be 0.95 and 0.8 in two different cases.

      Emissivity is a measurement of how much energy is radiated from a material relative to its temperature. An object that radiates ALL of its energy is known as a “black body”, and has an emissivity (or epsilon) of 1. Normal objects cannot be black bodies, so we call them “gray bodies” instead.

      The emissivity of a material depends very much on the physical structure of its surface. For example, the emissivity of *polished* stainless steel can be less than 0.05, but of brushed stainless steel it can be 0.85. This is a huge difference.

      If the emissivity is low enough, then even a small power input could allow a large amount of energy to build up in the material over time. This is because it would have a negative “radiation balance”, meaning more energy would be going into the object than radiating out of it.

      The reason why the Lubos analysis of emissivity is wrong is because it is impossible for a non-polished object of the E-Cat size (~0.4 square meters surface area) to radiate at 800C infrared and also glow white hot in the visible spectrum with only 300W input power.

      By comparison, the heating elements on an electric stove using to boil water use 1000+ watts, and they are much smaller area than the E-Cat.

    • Gerrit

      Lubos Motl start his own wikipedia article. That is how important he thinks he is.

      Giant ego, big mouth, string theory tinkerer.

      • Timar

        I kind of pity him. Years ago he made a rather brilliant contribution to string theory, but he was fired for his outspoken racist and sexist views (he claimed that african americans would be less intelligent than whites). He went back to Czechia and hasn’t contributed anything to physics since but withdrew to his blog, compensating his failure with an ever increasing swirl of megalomania and arrogance.

    • AlainCo

      The typical physicist.
      very good explain QM, string theories.
      ego bigger than US deficit.

      there is no good or bad people, there are people competent or not in various domain, and crossed that scale ther are people more or less delusioned on various subjects…

      he have some good points, and some bad, and clearly he is not honest enough to know himself where he is right.

      on emissivity he find a point, that is answered in the paper.
      good question, and good answer.. end of the story.

      moreover note that this test was done with comparative method, meaning that except for some detail, one error should apply to the blank run and the active run.

      next question.

  • Robert

    I wonder if this test meets Dick Smith’s satisfaction on his one million award for independant test? 🙂

    Anyone have any contact with him?

    • daniel maris

      Yeah, come on Dick. Time to pay up.LOL

      • Bob

        I’m surprised that they didn’t publish something prior to the end of January 2013. It may well have satisfied the requirements of the award and therfore they could have made a claim.
        The award expired end of Feb 2013 according to the blurb. http://dicksmithaustralia.com/
        ” The offer will remain open for 12 months from February 1st 2012 to the end of January 2013.” Although I read elsewhere that it was available until mid Feb 2013.

        I think even though the November test self destructed it should have at least proven the priciple and therefore been elligible for a claim on the award.
        $1,000,000 would have paid for all the expenses of the tests plus some beer money on top of that.

        • Bob

          Sorry, end of January 2013, not end of Feb. 2013

    • Roger Bird

      This is a common tactic: If someone doesn’t want to believe something, they merely elevate the standards for evidence and proof. If I was Dick Smith, I would withdraw his offer; it should be obvious to him that his $1,000,000 is in jeopardy. Eventually it will get to the point that LENR is undeniable and someone will collect.

      • GreenWin

        Yes. And as I have demonstrated, Smith is a fraud, having defaulted on his $1M “BeWilderforce Award.”

        • Roger Bird

          This tactic is very common in the health and medical arena.

          • psi

            Smith is a soup salesman. He should stick to things he knows something about.

      • dsm

        Did you ever read the offer ? – if you did you know it was for 12 months & that expired in feb.

        I set up the offer site and hosted it for that year.

        The offer was genuine & Smith would have paid up and Andrea would not have needed to have been seeking funds from people buying ‘agencies’ to sell a device they don’t have to sell.

        It remains appalling that so many people try to blame Dick Smith for Andrea Rossi’s inability to get real 3rd party validation. Nothing has changed.

        DSM