Rossi: A COP of Not Quite Infinity

There’s been a lot of discussion of what might be the COP of the new ‘cat and mouse’, or ‘rat and tiger’ E-Cat designs. Andrea Rossi has today made quite a provocative comment on the topic in which he give a calculation of the COP of the new configuration:

Dear Ron Stringer:
The Activator pays for itself, having a COP around 1.02, so its consumption of energy has not to be accounted for in the balance of the E-Cat, because it produces enough heat to pay for its own consumption with a 100% efficiency. The COP of the E-Cat is therefore net of the Activator’s consumpton. The COP of the E-Cat, as a matter of fact, has a zero at the denominator, but we rate it between 100 and 200 considering some parasitic consumption of energy, also bacause “infinity” makes no sense in Physics.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

This all sounds very positive, and in some ways almost incredible that such a thing could be possible. However when it comes to the E-Cat I’m learning not to be too suprised to hear about better things coming along. Now if only they can get rid of that pesky ‘parasitic’ energy consumption!

  • Chris I

    He seems to be implying that the e-mouse self-sustains and the remaining 0.02 is sufficient to scratch the e-cat’s nose. Otherwise he’s saying rather dumb things.

    He’s talking in a dumb manner anyhow. If the whole thing is overall self sustained after an initial activation, then the effective COP just depends on how long it keeps going thereafter. At that point, it’s instantaneous COP actually is infinite. Just like that of the sun, or of an alkaline battery once the work of manufacturing has been accomplished, or whatever. Saying 1 or 2 hundred comes across as totally arbitrary, unless he’s calculating it for a given duration of the whole cycle.

  • Björn

    Andrea Rossi
    May 12th, 2013 at 9:59 PM
    Dear Dr Joseph Fine:
    Please don’t go too far: just, for now, let’s limit to what I wrote about the Activator/E-Cat cycle. Please read carefully what I wrote. More than that is not possible to get, so far. Our basic module is made by an apparatus in which we have 2 components: an activator, which consumes abour 900 Wh/h and produces about 910 Wh/h of heat. This heat activates the E-Cat and then goes to the utilization by the Customer, so that its cost is paid back by itself. This activator stays in function for the 35% of the operational time of the syspem of the apparatus. The E-Cat, activated by the heat of the Activator, works for about the 65% of the operational time, producing about 1 kWh/h without consuming any Wh/h from the grid. Combining these modules we can make E-Cats of 1 kW , 10 kW, 100 kW, 1 MW , respectively, of power.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    These figures give us a COP less than 3!

  • E-dog

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IAQPKds034

    a song about Mr Dr Rossi?
    RatCat.. that aint bad

    • Jimr

      That is bad,as a matter of fact, it’s rotten.

      • Roger Bird

        degenerate, just exactly like most modern music.

  • Barry

    While we’re waiting for the Cold Fusion shoe to drop….

    I’m keeping my doubting Thomas stance, but in retrospect this photo, which was disappointing at first, is quite interesting. For one, at first I didn’t notice the Hot-cat, Second, all the faces are blurred. Third, testing seems to be going on.

    What bothered me was Rossi called it a delivery when it turned out it was just before shipment. He mentioned the Americans testing the Ecat. Is that what is going on here? Are the faces blurred, not by Rossi but the American company. Is this technically a delivery where the Americans tested and took it from there. Perhaps the new company blurred then generously gave permission for the photos to be released. And perhaps I was too hasty in my judgment against Rossi’s murky communication, but one thing is for sure, I’m coming to the realization that I spend way to much time on all of this,

    http://postimg.org/image/6v14pk649/

    • artefact

      I just noticed that we see 3 e-cats in the photos and I think that was what Rossi “promissed” us.
      http://postimg.org/image/fc0n0hat5/ and http://postimg.org/image/6v14pk649/

      The e-cats on top of the 1MW e-cats are different and the hotcat is visible in the second picture. So one of the two 1MW devices should be gas powered.

      • Andre Blum

        No. It is one and the same container. The top reactors have just been cased.

        • artefact

          That can be.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        I see the shipping container which I presume is the 1MW unit and I see another reactor on the rack. Where is the 3rd e-cat?

      • KD

        I too, expected that the date of delivery mean, delivery at the address of customer.
        But now I remember that at the time I was working as machine assembler, delivery at the customer place was by ours truck and we were doing installation it for customer.

        The other way was, when customer was testing the machine, sign up the papers, we loaded it on truck of delivery company and said “Good bye” to machine.
        We didn’t care if anything happen on the way to customer.
        In any case, the insurance company take care of it.

  • Adam Lepczak

    Btw, people are whispering about an E-Lion being developed. If everything AR is true he has a tremendous head start over anyone else as he is now perfecting the packaging and stability of his reactors.

    • Omega Z

      Adam

      That’s probably just Rumor from the LENR Blogs,

      HOWEVER- If that were the case, I’m waiting for the Elephant & the Mouse. The myth of Elephants fearing Mice, That Baby should Really Cook.

  • sparks

    Rats — I sure hope Rossi isn’t just playing cat-and-mouse with us!

  • Roger Bird

    I am concerned that Rossi is spending way too much time on the computer, sort of like us. I wonder if his handlers know how much time he spends on the computer.

    • Omega Z

      Roger

      Tho Rossi puts in long hours, I suppose he has a lot of time to kill when monitoring a system op. Nothing to do, Computers monitoring everything, but your presence is required.

      It’s kind of like us at ECW. About the time we quit watching daily, Something will happen. With all the time we’ve invested, That would Really Suck.

    • http://www.kaltefusion.tk/blog barty

      He now has his employees 😉

      But like Omega said. During messurements he has a lot time.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Roger feels that Rossi should be stroking the cat….making it purr.

  • GreenWin

    Perhaps Ing Rossi refers to the NiH2Tiger he has by the tail more than a product. For quite some time it is reasonably argued that controlled peer review has resisted publication of controversial results in LENR. This is potentially a reason for delay in results of independent tests of the e-cat.

    “While the experimental evidence for cold fusion can no longer be denied, the last card of its opponents is now the lack of a physical theory. Yet, theories exist that challenge the current understanding of nuclear reactions, some of them having been around for decades.

    However, they have not been allowed to appear in peer review journals controlled by the favored interest groups, so the policy makers controlling funding from government and investors are misinformed.” Dr. Stoyan Sarg, Foreign Policy Journal Canada 2012

    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/02/24/cold-winter-after-progress-in-cold-fusion/

    Yet there have been experimental results published in peer review by certain, protected scientists, namely the LENR research group at SPAWAR, U.S. Navy division (now disbanded.) This same group recently received one of the first USPTO patents for a cold fusion technology (#8,419,919.) Here is an overview of their 20 years of cold fusion research as described by Dr. Frank Gordon, co-host of ICCF-18 at University Missouri this summer.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VymhJCcNBBc

    Unhappily the independent group reviewing the e-cat most likely has none of the protection the SPAWAR group did. Making peer reviewed publication of any positive results far more speculative. But not impossible. 🙂

    • Peter Roe

      “This is potentially a reason for delay…”

      That was always a possibility – editors are vulnerable to ‘persuasion’ like anyone else, and in any case are answerable to owners or shareholders, who could kill the publication process at any point if they were leaned on heavily enough. If a last minute ‘rejection’ by a journal is the reason for delay, the delay could be very serious, as the paper would need to be resubmitted to a second choice rag. A new set of referees could demand all sorts of new experiments or raise quibbles of other kinds, all without any guarantee that the same thing wouldn’t just happen again.

      The potential gains to Rossi and his associates would be too small I think to make any further co-operation worthwhile. The other option – publishing on a preprint server or non-peer-reviewed journal would be worse than not publishing at all, as the paper would be wide open to attacks by doubters.

      It’s also possible (as I’ve speculated before) that the tests were intended solely for the use of the ‘partner’ or for a government panel, and there never was any real intention of publishing, at least not before a working installation is revealed. Possibly Rossi was mislead about this in order to gain his co-operation. All in all, I am not expecting to see the test results any time soon.

  • John Loraditch

    I believe the third prior report will be very influential prices of oil could drop as much as 20% the deciding factor may be if the media will cover the event which I think they will

    • Jimr

      Price of oil drop by 20%. I think you are putting far too much importance on the report.

      • Omega Z

        Jimr

        Short term, He may be right.
        If this hit MSM tomorrow, Some Investors will initially panic. Certain Stock Prices could easily drop 20%, Maybe more.
        However as details become available, the prices will go back up. Maybe days. Possibly a week or 2.

        LENR will take a decade to have real impact & likely 2 decades to have a major impact. Even those looking to develop LENR powered vehicles consider 20 years the likely market date.

        If it were me & new prices would drop, I would sell, but with the intention to reinvest when they bottomed. Then ride the prices back up.

        Actually, This may not bode well for the small investor. The Big money will have the inside Info 1st before it hits the Media. They’ll be the 1st to dump vulnerable Stocks & many small investor will get burnt. If the small investor is slow to the draw, their best bet may be to hang tight & ride it out.

      • GreenWin

        Oil price will remain even after full disclose of LENR energy mostly because of transition time frames and aerospace. There will be no replacement of commercial and military demand for jet fuel by LENR energy in the near term (20 years.) There will be a large hit in light automotive transport as more makers convert to hybrid and electric drive.

        Oil remains stable as long as its largest customers demand is stable – largest consumer of oil is still military.

        • Peter Roe

          The majority of car owners already have a heap of loot invested in their IC engined cars and are not about to throw them away (not to mention the armies of ‘end users’ such as myself who have better uses for their money than buying new cars, and instead choose to run a succession of cheap old bangers into the ground). For most people, the price of electric cars and hybrids would need to drop like lead before they became attractive.

          Also as you say, the military will continue to squander the stuff, so petrol and diesel fuels for vehicle use are probably quite safe for just about as long as the oil holds out. The only small thing that cold fusion will change is likely to be the worldwide disaster that would otherwise result when the supply of liquid fossil fuels begins to fall significantly behind the demand.

          • Thinksforself

            LENR could actually extend the length of time that IC engines reign. My home state of Colorado sits on one of the largest concentrations of oil shale in the world. It is estimated that the oil content is greater than the oil fields of Saudia Arabia. The only real difficult part of tapping the supply is extracting the oil from the shale. With cheap to free energy from lenr the extraction becomes financially feasible.

            • Roger Bird

              All of the best people come from Colorado.

              Your idea is almost an oxymoron. If the energy to extract is so cheap, why would anyone want to extract that yucky stuff at all? And when energy is absurdly cheap, the desire for plastics would be less.

            • Peter Roe

              Yes, that’s so – LENR would also reduce the cost of fractionation refinement of crude oil, and eventually of transport costs, as merchant ships are converted and the cost of powering railways falls.

              • xy

                Be sure that managers of any company using energy will see benefits in switching from gas and oil to extremely cheap lenr generators. That will happen real quick. Then, be sure not one investor will ever invest a dollar in gas and oil and might be even wind when there’s such a high uncertainty that lenr will take over in 5 years. Oil and gas demand will drop relatively slowly, but no new oil and gas facilities will be built. That tells me that gas and oil price will grow for some years.

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      I was thinking of 60% drop, maybe not initially, but after rebound and second fall. But what do I know…

      • John Littlemist

        Pekka,

        what is your opinion on Wärtsilä? Shall the company eventually be doomed or could they perhaps somehow survive by re-inventing themselves?

        • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

          Frankly, I do not have a prior opinion about this. But I’m thinking of a following sequence of events: 1) LENR is announced, 2) energy investments stop, 3) fossil prices drop, 4) fossil consumption increases and the prices partly rebound. Maybe people buy new ship engines in phase 4 which is temporarily good for Wärtsilä. But as soon as LENR comes to ships, diesels are doomed. Someone builds those LENR engines. Whether it is Wärtsilä or someone else, I do not know.

          • xy

            3 is incorrect. Gas and oil stocks will drop. The price of gas and oil will not. The demand is there. Then they will grow, since no new gas oil facilities will be invested into.

            • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

              yes the demand is there, but so is a capacity to increase production on some sites

        • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

          my reply went to moderation

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      I doubt the panic will set in until the 2 x 4 hits them square in the face, i.e. the bottom line.

      • clovis

        +1

    • Fibb

      the price of oil could easily drop dramatically, then skyrocket, drop again, rise, drop… and do so repeatedly and wildly. meanwhile, economic chaos will ensue as coal and oil reserve assets worth 100s of billions are wiped out over night. there will be a lot of upheaval. I can’t wait.

      add to the mix the 3Rd party results due may 27 from EEstor and we could be in for a wild ride.

      • Roger Bird

        I feel sorry for all of those plants that won’t be getting their extra shot of CO2. Perhaps we could set some coal fields on fire for their sake. (:->)

  • KD

    Rossi is learning from Nature.

    You know how I invented this system?
    I was in North Carolina and observed in a garden of the hotel a sleeping cat: a squirrel passed fast close to the cat, and the cat made some move to reach the squirrell, but the squirrel disappeared and the cat returned to sleep…that’t learning from Nature!

    • KD

      From J-O-N-P

      Steven N. Karels

      Dear Andrea Rossi,
      Many thanks for the continued information and clarifications of the Activator and Reactor. A very interesting implementation. Also, thanks to Pekka Janhunen for the closed form solution to average COP. A few additional questions:
      a. In the Activator – Reactor system, essentially you have a Reactor without electrical heaters but it receives its control heat from the Activator. So at thermal steady-state operation, the Reactor is in SSM 65% of the time and in the other 35%, heat is being applied by the Activator? Is this essentially correct?
      b. Conceptually, if you were to construct a 1MW industrial device using 10 of the 100 kW Tiger units, would you be limited in output power control to 10%?
      c. If the 100 kW Reactor just begins its SSM operation mode and the user demand significantly decreases, can the 100 kW unit be immediately throttled back or must one wait for the cessation of SSM before an output reduction occurs?
      d. In the 100kW design, is the Activator an internal part of the Reactor body or an external unit (for example, it wraps around the Reactor)?
      e. What are the dimensions of the 100 kW unit? – I would like to run a heat transfer analysis, please.

      Andrea Rossi

      Dear Steven N. Karels:
      a- when the activator is on the E-Cat is off, when the E-Cat is on the Activator is off. When the Activator is turned off the temperature rises, becauce the E-Cat is activated, when the Activator is turned on the temperature lowers, because the E-Cat goes off. If we consider
      100 hours of operation, for about 35 hours the Activator is on and the E-Cat is off, while for about 65 hours the E-Cat is on and the Activator is off. We reached a good stability for this reason: the Activator gives to the E-Cat enough energy to give good performance, but not enough to escape from control, like a Mouse which make a Cat nervous, but not too much; then, the Activator stops, the CaT goes on, until he returns to sleep; at this point the Mouse- activator is turned on, but the temperature goes down because the E-Cat is off; at this point the Cat becomes again nervous, and immediately the Mouse- activator is turned off, while again the temperature raises, and so on. The invention of this cycle, regulated by a complex software, allows to reach high temperatures in good stability. The important thing is that also the Activator has a charge, so that it reaches a COP more than 1, paying for itself: for this reason the energy that the Activator consumed is paid for by itself and does not affect the COP of the E-Cat.

      You know how I invented this system?
      I was in North Carolina and observed in a garden of the hotel a sleeping cat: a squirrel passed fast close to the cat, and the cat made some move to reach the squirrell, but the squirrel disappeared and the cat returned to sleep…that’t learning from Nature!

      b- No
      c- So far we are making R&D on the 100 kW Tigers, I can’t answer
      d- see 3

      • Andy Kumar

        “You know how I invented this system?
        I was in North Carolina and observed in a garden of the hotel a sleeping cat: a squirrel passed fast close to the cat, and the cat made some move to reach the squirrell, but the squirrel disappeared and the cat returned to sleep…that’t learning from Nature!”

        Rossi may be a hustler but he surely has great sense of humor.

      • Peter Roe

        “when the activator is on the E-Cat is off..” That doesn’t make any sense at all, as it implies that when the activator is switched on, the e-cat goes off – cause and effect. My guess is that he actually means that the activator is switched on only when output from the e-cat is already falling at the end of a self-sustained period.

        However he then goes on: “at this point (the end of a self-sustained cycle, presumably) the Mouse- activator is turned on, but the temperature goes down because the E-Cat is off; at this point the Cat becomes again nervous, and immediately the Mouse- activator is turned off, while again the temperature raises, and so on.” This seems to mean that there is a delay after the activator goes on, and then some kind of feedback from the e-cat that means that it has re-activated, despite the fact that it’s temperature is still falling. At that point the activator must be switched off before too much energy has been input to the e-cat. The e-cat reaction will then continue to build, even with the activator off, but only to a stable point determined by how much energy was fed in by the activator.

        Anyone else read it this way?

        And does anyone understand the parable of the sleeping cat in this context?

        • http://gkos.com Seppo

          “when the activator is on the E-Cat is off..” That makes sense *if* there is a away to turn on/off the activator or the cat at any desired moment. The electronic control system will take care of this to optimize the operation, not ’cause and effect’.

        • GreenWin

          A sleeping cat awakes only when there’s a squirrel to observe it?

          • clovis

            +1

    • Pedro

      Ok, that’s another hint from AR… What was he doing in NC? Visiting his partner Carrier?

      • Omega Z

        Siemens
        Recently expanded Combined Energy Plant.
        10 Months ago they added 500,000 square feet to their existing plant in Charlotte, North Carolina. Turbines & boilers all in 1 location. (Manufacture & Assemble) Major R&D facility also.

        They tried to buy the Italian Company Ansaldo Energia that both builds, Deploys & “Operates/sells” Energy Distribution. Similar to what Rossi’s partner wants to do.

        Corporations like Siemens that look to expand in new areas like to buy instead of ground up. Buying an Existing Company brings already attained Expertise & Customer Base.
        Of Course Siemens is big enough & diversified enough to do this ground up. It just takes a little longer.

        • Omega Z

          Just to Add,
          They also build the 60Hz Generators at this 1 Million SqFt facility.

        • Pedro

          If he was visiting Siemens, it can be because Siemens is the US (???) partner, or he was there because he’s working with Siemens on generating elctricity from the ecat.
          What about carrier as the partner? They are a good match as well and they are truely US. What kind of facilities do they have in NC?

          • GreenWin

            United Technologies owns Carrier, but does not manufacture those products in NC. The do have a large aerospace group in Charlotte where there is a science park triangle with lots of resources.

          • Omega Z

            Carrier is 1 of 5 Subsidiaries of United Technologies–Hartford, Connecticut
            1. Otis, 2. Pratt & Whitney, 3. Sikorsky(Helicopters) 4. UTC Aerospace Systems, 5. UTC Climate, Controls & Security(Carrier)

            All I’m aware of in North Carolina is a Distribution facility. They do have an Interesting Micro-turbine, But it’s produced by Energent: Microsteam Turbine Power Systems.

            They also deal in Combined Cooling, Heating, Power systems, but It may also be manufactured by someone else.

            For the last 15 years they’ve been involved in a mass Exodus out of the U.S. & not slowing down. 5 more plants are being moved out in just the next couple years.

            They Don’t even need to turn out the lights when they leave. They tend to level the buildings leaving empty green grass or parking lots. They may soon be U.S. Company in name only at the present rate.

            Carrier is about 1/10th the size of Siemens.
            United Technologies as a whole is pretty Big & does a lot of Government Jobs.

            Personally, I’m Biased Against Carrier. I did business with them for a couple years & finally found someone else to deal with. At the time they provided 5 year warranties when the industry standard was 10 & cut you no breaks on Large volume. Also for them 5 years & 1 day was out of warranty. There Competitor allowed a little leeway within reason on warranty, MUCH better pricing, Better product. And I had much happier Clients. Oh yeah- Most of the Products were U.S. Manufactured with only a few Foreign Components.

        • GreenWin

          Also Siemens AG makes the SST-040, a nice small steam turbine for all kinds of applications:

          Technical Data

          Power output: 75 – 300 kW(e)
          Inlet pressure: 2 up to 40 bar (a)
          Inlet temperature: dry saturated steam up to 400 °C
          Exhaust pressure: max. 7 bar (a) up to 0,1 bar (a) condensation
          Dimensions: approx. 1,5 x 2,5 x 2 m (B x L x H)
          Weight approx. 4.500 Kg

          • Pedro

            Fits well with the Hot-Cat.
            So he probably was in NC to meet with Siemens, but we cannot conclude from this that Siemens is the partner. Siemens may just be a supplier instead of “the” partner.

            • Roger Bird

              He might have gone to see Siemens to negotiate, and got turned down or accepted. He might have gone to see Siemens to return some equipment. He might have gone to North Carolina to see relatives. He might have gone to NC to hit on my daughter. Everything is speculation.

            • GreenWin

              I suspect Ing Rossi would travel to NC to visit fellow entrepreneurs, e.g. Wright Brothers National Memorial, Kill Devil Hills NC. Many friends there.

              • Roger Bird

                If I were a detective, this is one lead I would not be bothering with unless I was completely desperate. Perhaps if it had to do with a lost nuclear weapon I might follow it up. But it is such speculation, even for this forum. (:->)

        • Pedro

          See http://www.babcock.com for a nice picture of a carrier… btw… Headquartered in Charlote NC. Any chance this is the partner he was visiting?

          • Roger Bird

            Perhaps he went to NC to see an investor or a chick or to see about some equipment. I think that speculating why he was in NC is getting a little thin. He might have been merely passing through NC.

          • Pedro

            I fully agreethat this is all wild speculation based on a story about a cat. The only thing that triggered me to start speculating was the fact that he mentioned NC in the story, which seems to serve no purpose at all, unless it’s AR teasing us with hidden hints. But that also is just speculation. The future will tell…

      • GreenWin

        “Siemens Energy announced other expansions in Charlotte last year to create a global production hub for manufacturing, servicing and other support functions related to the supply of its gas and steam turbines and generators to 60-Hz markets around the world. Those expansions will add approximately 1,000 people to the company’s workforce there by 2014.”

        http://www.researchtriangle.org/news-and-events/siemens-energy-to-expand-us-footprint-and-adds-139-white-collar-jobs-i

      • GreenWin

        Also according to a report in Milano Finanza that the Korean giant Doosan industries is about to close on the purchase of Ansaldo Energia, the Italian power plant unit with connections to the Rossi e-cat development team.

  • clovis

    Hello, Dr. Rossi,
    thank you for a very informative interview, you have been so great about giving us information about your world changing tech, I am so very proud of you, keep up your tremendous ground breaking work in this field.
    you will go down in history as the man that really saved the world, a super hero in my book. and your revolutionary army stands ready. and frank ackland our fearless leader and almost everyone here at ECW , would love to be apart of your new revolution, with the greatest regards,–clovis

  • georgehants

    John
    May 12th, 2013 at 1:55 AM
    Dear Dr. Rossi,
    You should patent the cascade “mouse-cat” or “Rat-tiger” setup (if you have not already done so) separately. Leaving out the “cold fusion” bit because this setup may be applicable to other more conventional reactions, that may help your patent being granted faster.
    —–
    Andrea Rossi
    May 12th, 2013 at 8:20 AM
    Dear John:
    Done.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • robiD

    Well, do you have some witness? Does exist some physicist or engineer from well known university that support your thesis (better more than one)? Can we hear directly from them the results of the tests (because you did some test, right)? Can we see pictures, can we know the experimental setup you used? Could we have logged data? What instruments did you use?
    About Rossi we know all that and more (though we would like to know more and more, I admit), instead about you, we know you are a troll and … what else? Ahh yes … that you are a troll. Sorry but it’s too little to believe you are right.

  • Björn

    I just don’t understand what Rossi is trying to say.
    Can he mean a COP of 2,1?
    For me, an electric heater has a COP of 1.
    What is the difference between the mouse and an electric resistor?

    • Peter Roe

      10%, apparently!

  • E-dog

    Hi Ladies and Gentlemen,
    Hope everyone is fine and dandy!

    Interesting news once again from Rossi, but come on… he cant even get simple dates correct.. I wouldnt trust him to work out the output of his devices..

    That being said, for the sake of the planet, he needs to get off his high horse, protect his IP (properly), get a proper PR person and release, release, release……

    Oh yes.. this is rather urgent.. We just hit 400 ppb of CO2 in our atmosphere.. bad news for most of the planet (good news for some).. we have got to stop pulling the carbon out of the ground and pumping it into the air.

  • G_Zingh

    We use to have a little cat an ecat if you will. Now we have a hot cat, a warm cat, a mouse, a rat, a tiger, and who knows what else. No wonder I am confused. But I don’t blame Rossi for this name game diversion it is not his fault the independent peer reviewed reports are late… again.

    I am glad the Tiger is being developed I think it is the natural evolution and necessary if Rossi wants to be serious about electrical power generation. Bigger is better. More bigger cats and with multiple ecats inside I say. Still i think it is important to realize that Rossi went to this cat and mouse setup a while ago and now all the cats are configured thus.

    The Hot cat therefore must have an activator and ecat, whose internal COP is 100-200, inside of it and it’s total COP is probably 6, but we have to wait for the peer reviewed report to know for sure. I just don’t want people to get on this JONP unlimited COP sugar rush bonanza and then get disappointed later because you know how cranky we all get when the the rush wears off.

    Still it is important to remember that Rome wasn’t built in a day and this is what progress looks like when you are developing a new tech.

    • Peter Roe

      A mixture of hope, detachment and (much) patience is probably the ideal. I don’t think that many of us are that saintly unfortunately – I know I’m not.

      • georgehants

        Peter, only two things are important I think, The third party report and/or a confirmed report from a another research endevour confirming an high output device.
        Everything else is just enjoyable speculation and chit-chat.

        • lukedc

          Well put +1..

        • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

          I do not think we will have anything of note until August 12th to 26th. We will hear from Defkalion, the partner will have installed the E – Cat and the third party report should be out by then. A good three months wait from now.

        • Steve

          Ditto

        • Steve

          Can’t wait for the infinity+1 device. (Just joking – lighten up guys)
          We live in interesting times.

          • Andy Kumar

            There is a whole sequence of trans-finite numbers. 2^infinity > infinity.

            Next, Rossi will claim uncountably infinite COP.

            -Andy

            • Omega Z

              Would that Not be Infinite Infinite

      • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

        The problem choosing your position about LENR is depending of your motives.

        Someone having not real motivation to be right about LENR, no money to win or lose, could be pathologically skeptic, pathologically confident, or absolutely indifferent.

        Someone afraid to lose his reputation if he support bad science against the majority, like a mainstream scientist, will be safely pathologically skeptic. Being wrong attacking LENr won’t be serious because his acts will be dissolved in the mass of mainstream skeptics.

        If you want to make the good decision about your career in business, if you want to invest in money or in reputation, so you can take the wave, while you fear to be toasted if you are proven wrong, then you have no choice, you have both to be careful in not supporting frauds or scam, but also not to miss the opportunities.

        Look at what National Instruments boss (this company is still managed by his founder), what Nicolas Chauvin and the founder of Logitech (not Logitech) are doing, what Alexandros Xanthoulis is doing, what Aldo Proia is doing…

        Note that for them the biggest risk is not that LENR is fake, that rossi or Defkalion is fake, the probability is negligible today, yet less negligible than earth being destroyed by an asteroid tomorrow.
        The biggest risk is classic business and industrial risks…
        that rossi exaggerate some sucess like anyone in his position did, to a point that it gives competitors a chance to toast him. That they missed the time-window to invest and innovate, to get partnerships, to patent the good idea… to miss the killer-application or invest million is a flop…

        see what are doing lenr-cities teams with lenr-invest…
        http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?1468-New-leap-in-ecosystem-development-with-LENR-Cities-and-LENR-invest-

        there is a moment, in business or in civil war, when you have to take a position. there is no null hypothesis, no safe harbor…

        the losers will get toasted, and exaggerating safe reasoning is as toxic as exaggerating confidence…

        I don’t trust the tiger/rat, copper, gamma, or COP discussion, but sure I trust that Rossi and Defkalion have something valuable, that Brillouin have some ideas, that Celani found interesting phenomenon …
        but all is risky, because they are either not businessmen, thus unexperimented, or are businessmen thus necessarily a bit crazy…

    • Kim

      You need to put your hand out and feel
      the rush of the air sometimes in life.

      Respect
      Kim

  • malkom

    I think it must be realized that in the short term the COP is not important as it affects the consumption of nickel only.

    • Björn

      It affects the consumption of electricity.

      • malkom

        In short term no matter if the cost elektricity 1/6 or 1/50 will be. So I wrote that in the short term.

  • lenrdawn

    “This all sounds very positive”

    I don’t follow. To me it sounds rather confused or at least deliberately confusing. It is May 12, 2013 – and here we are, talking about a post on JONP where Rossi hinted at something called a tiger. Shouldn’t we be discussing a peer reviewed report published in a reputable journal by now? Shouldn’t we be standing in line for visiting customer installations or Rossi’s factories? Shouldn’t we exchange views on Rossi’s interview in The New York Times rather than Smart Scarecrow? We seem to forget too easily. Some of us even seem to forget too eagerly.

    • Peter Roe

      We are mostly just here for our own amusement while we wait for real-world developments, and endlessly going over the many false claims and loose ends in Rossi’s narrative would not be particularly entertaining or productive, especially in the absence of any ‘real world’ information. Working cold fusion devices will either appear or not appear, and nothing we discuss here is likely to change when/if this takes place.

      The alternative to taking an optimistic (or at least genuinely neutral) position, and possibly sometimes speculating a little while suspending disbelief, is the repetitive and utterly pointless sneering and denial that characterised ECN, moletrap and now wavewatching.net/fringe.

      Obviously anyone is free to choose whichever approach suits them best, or to lurk in blogs reflecting either or both viewpoints, or to just stay away of the discussion altogether. I suppose that the choice will largely depend on whether you are by nature optimistic, neutrally curious, or just enjoy having your ego constantly preened by others of like mind.

      • georgehants

        Peter, very good, wonderful day.

        • Peter Roe

          Morning George. Indeed – even if things are a bit on the quiet side at the moment. I may even be forced to go and do a bit of work.

          • georgehants

            Peter so many Wonderful things in the World to keep us all busy.
            Work is not one that I have much time for these days, O’ I do cut the lawn when it is ever possible.

      • daniel maris

        Well yes, personal interest…but there are real world effects. If I think Rossi has passed the borderline between possibility to the land of credibility then that will affect my behaviour in the real world – I don’t just mean my personal behaviour, but within the organisation I work in. I will then feel able to risk my own personal credibility to press for certain policies to be implemented (reasonably modest though, we are talking about decisions involving millions of pounds). I am sure there are quite a few people in positions of considerable power or influence here whose behaviour will be changed once they are satisfied that Rossi will be credible.

        • Peter Roe

          Yes – ‘amusement’ only applies until real world confirmation becomes available. At that point things will obviously change.

          In my own case I now work as a freelance technical author, so I am not in a position to influence anything much through my job. However I also occasionally write science articles for a few magazines under various pen-names, and am active in lobbying against new nuclear fission in the UK, so (come the day) I will be doing my best to spread awareness of the new alternative in any way I can.

      • Garry

        +1

      • Roger Bird

        Yes

    • Shane D.

      lenr,

      When a dog is chewing on your leg, you throw a bone and the dog contentedly runs off to chew on the bone instead of your leg.

      Rossi threw us a big bone called the “tiger”, and a smaller bone called the “mouse”, and we are now content focusing on the tasty morsels with our attention safely, for now, off that independent report.

      So in answer to your question: No we are not supposed to be asking anymore questions about the report. Rossi made that clear when he passed his own deadline (s) and said peer reviewed reports can take up to six months more!

      Now, about those new developments….

      • kasom

        i regret to admit, but it seems to be as you say……

    • Roger Bird

      Yes

  • Omega Z

    If the Mouse uses say 1Kw & the Tiger puts out 100Kw converted to 33Kw electric & is looped, it technically would be infinite at 32Kw output net.

    However we have the question of refueling every 6 months.
    So in reality, is it infinite?

    • daniel maris

      Isn’t it just a mathematical artefact?

      Anyway, intriguing those this all is I am not going to waste too much attention to it. We are a long way from crossing the Credibility Border into the Land of New Era.

      • Peter Roe

        +1

      • clovis

        -1

  • Björn

    Rossi’s figures dont tell us anything.
    If the output power of the ecat is the same as the input to the activator, COP will be around 3.

  • Roger Bird

    I have contemplated the possibility that Rossi is playing a benevolent con on us. Perhaps he is trying to stimulate research and development in LENR. But then I looked at the soft/social evidence and realized that Occam would still be spinning in heaven over that one.

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      Yes, for 1.5 years ago I was also considering this and other related possibilities, and then arrived at the same conclusion.

  • Greg Leonard

    The activator sounds absolutely necessary for the ecat to run.
    Therefore its energy input needs to be balance against the combined output of activator and ecat to get the COP.
    The denominator is not zero – it is the power input to the activator

    • Peter Roe

      That’s right – the internal arrangement is irrelevant. All that matters is how much energy goes in (to the activator) and how much comes out from the main reactor, averaged over time. Rossi is talking nonsense when he says that the activator ‘pays for itself’ – it still needs to be supplied with power for 1/3 of the operating cycle. I suppose he means that given the overall gain, this power input is relatively insignificant, but that is a different thing altogether.

      An ‘infinite COP’ is a meaningless concept that simply demonstrates the limitations of this ratio when input falls to zero. If a device outputs 1mW without input, the COP would still be ‘infinite’.

    • Blanco69

      Agreed. We ave to measure the COP of the complete system. Unless the ‘next cat’ can be started up by offering it a saucer of milk. PS Anyone heard from Robert Mockan recently? He’s been off the grid for a while. I’ve been speculating that he might have been hired by Rossi and is now on the inside.

      • buffalo

        im also wondering about mr mockan.i say we start an immediate concerted investigation into his whereabouts.his absolutely sudden disapearance does not make sense at all.

        • Barry

          I did a google search on Robert. The only thing I found out was that picture he always posted wasn’t of himself but was a photo of Mr. Spock.

          • Blanco69

            Yes. Maybe he is now Captain James T Rossi’s First Science Officer. His sudden disappearance does seem illogical. Hope he’s still finding time to live long and prosper.

  • Bob

    That’s great news because it was the cascade-cat which was the subject of the independent third party test and report, (which we still don’t have). So if the COP of the secondary device is close to infinite there should be an extremely high COP for the device tested.
    There will be no excuse now if the report comes back with a COP of 1.02
    Unless maybe it was only the ‘activator’ which was tested, but then that doesn’t sound at all likely.

  • Suckerpunched

    Rossi talks about a possible infinite COP. If you had infinite space and materials to make all those E-cats. If you go the route of 1 E-cat of COP 6. If it has 0 for the 1 in the 1:6 ratio, then sure math doesn’t lie.

    However, it can’t work that way. The E-cat is still COP 6. The mouse is still whatever the self-sustainable number is 1.02 or whatever. So, really, it is 1.02:6 right….. For a tiger, which has something like 11 E-cats in it, the COP is additive not multiplicative, and is more like 1.02:66. Changing the time an E-cat runs does not increase it’s COP. It’s going to be as efficient 6 months from now, as the day you start it up.

    • artefact

      Rossi sais the e-cat in the tiger always runs in self sustained mode.

  • MStone

    Infinity makes plenty of sense in physics. It is just that, infinity usually represents an incomplete mathematical model of something in physics. Or, one could argue, mathematics needs a new language to describe some physics. Black holes being the classic example. I would suggest the multiverse theory might be a good example of where to use infinity…maybe.

  • George N

    Yeah that’s great Rossi, BUT WHERE’S THE BEEF?!

  • Luca Salvarani

    Infinity or not Rossi has been great. Keep working like this also on the electric production and home e-cat…. I’m very proud of you Andrea.

    • clovis

      +1

  • Owen

    The E-Cat Tiger probably sounds like fantasy to most people hearing about this for the first time. But to those who have followed LENR developments closely for the last few years, Rossi may have what he claims. Here’s just one brief consideration to support this possibility. Regular readers here know that many labs (around 100?) have confirmed LENR reactions on a small scale. This we know for sure. It’s possible Rossi has figured out how to use a low temp reaction (that many other scientists have confirmed) to pre-heat a larger LENR reactor. It’s the next logical step.

    • Owen

      That probably should read “to pre-heat and jump start a larger LENR reactor” because the Activator is likely doing more than just supplying heat.

      • John

        It may be that “mouse” or “rat” is less shielded to allow a burst of gamma out, jump starting a bigger “cat” or “tiger”.

        • Alex

          The heat would not come from radiation directly, but the exothermic core feeding the E-cat. Rossi has mentioned it is just thermal resistance that starts the Mouse. So the jump-start heat for the E-Cat most likely indirectly caused by the Radiation, and caused by a fluid heat ex-changer or a Heat-sink sharing the two chambers which hold the reactions. You also have to remember the Mouse is self sustaining, so it’s own heat needs to both feed, and loopback. A heat-exchanger device is perfect for achieving that.

    • Bob

      This was suggested quite early on by a number of people on the JONP blog, that one stage of an e-cat could be used as a heat source for ‘downstream’ stages to give in effect an infinite COP, and on all occasions Rossi replied that it was not possible because of the way the ecat works. He wouldn’t say why not because he would not disclose how it worked (fair enough) but he did explicitly rule out that approach. Something must have changed, either technically or by way of necessity.

      • Owen

        Or he said that to throw competitors off track. Everything he says has to be weighed with this in mind. I think that’s why a lot of people don’t trust him. But to be fair to Rossi, I think he pretty much has to dance around the facts so competitors don’t beat him out.

        • clovis

          You know it funny you say that , because i have been wondering why, all of the other big players have not even had a demo or showed a prototype of any kind, the only one i know about is the quantumheat guys and their open source project, why do you think that is, they all seem to be waiting on Dr. Rossi for some reason, they will be so far behind they will not be able to secure a place in the market, and if they do, it is my belief he Dr R will not allow it, this e-cat system is his alone, no one has helped in any way, his work along with Dr. Fccardi has produced this wonderful device.

      • Omega Z

        Bob, I think Rossi was speaking from a regulatory/safety point of view. Like a Nuke Plant is required to have an external energy source, because if you should lose power, you still have the external source for control.

        If these should ever make it into the homes, it may be required to be hooked to a neighborhood grid type system. At the very least a battery back up.

        OR maybe he was saying this to appease TPTB gods.

  • Andy Kumar

    It is amazing that the e-cat keeps getting better with time like good
    wine. Hopefully, we will be able to buy one soon.

    I think Rossi should set up toll free numbers 800-ROSS-Ixx where xx is 13 for year 2013, 14 for 2014 and so on. That way, you could order the latest version every January. Weight loss chain Jenny Craig has some thing like this – “CALL 800-JENNYxx for NEW YOU in 20xx”.

  • Roger Bird

    So, I think that we need a different measurement of success. Output power = OP. Input Power = IP. Size in cubic meters (just to stay scientific). Power Density = (OP – IP) / size. Obviously we can’t be dividing by zero. I hate it when they do that. And no one cares how heavy it is. If the OP is less than the IP, obviously that sucks, so to speak. Let us do an example of a 1 meter square solar panel. I have no idea about solar panels, but just as an example, let us say that we get 100 watts out of it. The input is zero. And the size, taking into the fact that you can’t put anything between it and the Sun, 3 cubic meters. 100W – 0W = 100W. Divided by 3 cubic meters, equals an energy density of 33W per cubic meter. No very good.

    But lets say that we have a “conventional” E-Cat at 10kW that requires 100 W to run and takes up 1/4 of a cubic meter (and runs all night without making a sound). (10kW – 100W) / 1/4 = an energy density of 39600 W per cubic meter. 1200 times better than a single solar panel. Nice! And much better than dividing by zero.

    • Hampus

      But then ofc the ecat requires some fuel while the solar cell will work for decades.

      • Roger Bird

        Solar cells will work for a maximum of 10 hours, and then they go to sleep. And the infrastructure necessary for those little naps is a big difficulty.

        I heard somewhere that solar cells degrade at like 6% per year. This could have been a particular type, and it could have changed. Perhaps you know more about this than I do. I like the idea of 0% degradation; just point your hose and problem solved.

        • UKT

          Sorry but solar cells work all the time and generate electricity when there is light. Summer in Finland this would be nearly 24 hours a day.

          PV cells degrade in output by 1% per year which means they will outlive the lifetime of the balance of the system.

          • Roger Bird

            Why are you apologizing?

            1% is certainly much better than 6%. But why should ANY of the system degrade. When people understand that DC is the wave of the future, then maybe they will demand DC appliances. Then inverters (? DC to AC) will not be necessary. I bet that the inverters are what degrade, converting from DC to AC.

            Educate me.

            • jazzy

              inverters generally have a warranty of 10 years. panel typical no more than 10% drop at 10 yrs and 20% cum total by 25yrs. works out to ~1$ per year.

  • Kim

    Were talking about a Cube with a measure of
    2 feet by 2 feet by 2 feet, sitting on your patio
    providing: 100,000 watts x 0.25 = 25 kilowatts of electricity. (conservative and approx. figure)

    That’s enough power for my house and 3 more
    houses at peak consumption. (6,250 watts).

    With a COP that reaches theoretical infinity.
    (Save the Physicists).

    I can heat my house, my hot tub, my green house
    and not even break a sweat.

    Cost? = approaching 0.

    Respect
    Kim

    • Owen

      That would mean the initial purchase cost could be divided among three homeowners. So even if this e-cat system is a bit pricey, it would likely be affordable to average consumers if the cost is split among several homeowners. And, like most products, the cost would likely drop over time as they gain widespread use and they’re mass produced.

      • Hampus

        Yes when mass production starts and the competition enters we will surly have a price fight. Because all the technology involved in making these reactors are very cheap I think the price will fall very very fast.

      • Mick D

        3 homes is a mini utility. The obvious first step in deploying the e-cat is in electric utilities where the bigger the e-cat the better. Once the installation is paid for, the cost of electricity is for delivery, like water. This takes a long time, extended by bonds for utility financing. I hope price per kWh just stabilizes.
        Once e-cat is in place and accepted, others will address the market for home and mobile use. We will have to wait.

    • Bob

      The 2 foot cube would only be for the production of heat. Any conversion of that heat to electricity would require many more cubic feet and complexity, not to mention the required compliance with regulations. Straight away you would need to comply with boiler and pressure vessel regulations which are rigorous and ongoing.
      At the current rate of development I don’t see all that being achieved for many years, and from what he has said, neither does Rossi.
      A 100 kilowatt device does not have the instant appeal that the original 10 kilowatt ecat had as far as the average home user is concerned. 10 kilowatts of heat would save on household heating and hot water heating. That would be a huge benefit to almost everybody. We don’t need 450 Deg C, and we don’t need 100 kilowatts. Both of these specifications make the device more dangerous which means less likelihood that it would be approved for home use.

      • Roger Bird

        Whether Papp-Rohner is real and has a COP greater than 1 or not, I believe that they can generate electricity. They put a coil around the bursting gas and I guess it induces an electric current for a short interval. I wonder if the same thing could be done with an e-cat. The Papp-Rohner burst is moving, and e-cat is not, so perhaps not. I am just speculating on top of speculation. I wonder if there has been any measurement of an electro-magnetic field around the core of an e-cat.

        • Barry

          Roger, one thing I wonder about with the Papp-Rohner engine is how much energy goes into producing their noble gasses.

          • Roger Bird

            That is an interesting idea. I am sure that some gases require a lot of energy to produce in a purified form. However, even if there is no COP greater than 1, it is still a very interesting phenomena. It never gets hot. It generates an electric current. But since it has been tainted with the “nut job” label, I doubt if any “real” scientists will look too closely at it.

          • Peter Roe

            Probably quite a bit, but it is not consumed during operation, only endlessly recycled (of course there is slight leakage past piston rings and other seals that means it needs topping up occasionally. The losses from the new experimental turbine-type motors should be fairly insignificant.

            The real question with the Bob Rohner ‘replications’ is how much energy is going into the spark discharges, and whether this energy is actually enough to account for the kinetic energy that is output. The driving capacitors always look pretty large. Until someone can prove there is a net gain, these devices are just another YouTube wonder.

      • Omega Z

        Bob

        Most people let their enthusiasm get ahead of them.
        I see it for what it is. A Great 1st step with many hurdles ahead. If all the supporting mechanisms cost me an additional 50 grand, it’s a big problem. The Regulations will be a big problem. It’s going to take time for this to become what many expect, At least for individuals ownership.