What’s Happened to Andrea Rossi and his E-Cat? (From Oilprice.com)

The following article by Brian Westenhaus from Oilprice.com is republished here with permission. The original article can be read here.

Yesterday Sterling D. Allan of PESN and Frank Acland of E-CatWorld conducted a one and a half hour interview with Andrea Rossi hosted by Gary Hendershot on his Smart Scarecrow service regarding developments in the E-Cat technology based on the cold fusion technology called “LENR” for Low Energy Nuclear Reaction.

SmartScarecrow has chat room where people could post questions, several of which were presented to Rossi during the show. At its peak, there were just over 1000 people listening to the live broadcast, which began at 4:30 pm Eastern time (GMT-5), with nearly 200 people in the live chat.

The conversation while on YouTube is audio only. Rather than sit through over an hour and half here is a brief summary.

What Rossi and the enthusiasts have learned is it’s a very long path from the lab demonstration unit to production. Mr. Rossi’s credibility has taken quite hit from observers without familiarity in making such a jump. Every little glitch in the scaling that fails has to be worked back, discovered, redesigned or engineered and then the process starts in again.

To build the 1-megawatt unit takes 106 reactors, so getting each one built is quite an undertaking for a startup. Meanwhile the company is well, starting up, getting located, equipped, supplied, staffed and all the myriad details to build something. Days means weeks and weeks could be months adding up to years.

The very first unit experienced just these kinds of problems and wasn’t in fact actually shipped; a second unit with the results of the experience from the first build is what was delivered to the U.S. military customer.

Currently, a unit that was built for delivery has just been shipped after a test suite was run. Shipping for the container-sized unit would be almost a month and simply installing the unit will take a month as well.

That puts two 1 megawatt units out the door.

Understandably, with all the outside attention the customers have no intention of public acknowledgment of the deal, delivery or results. Quiet is the word – no one wants onlookers hanging around and the attention on a very technical and controversial device.

The next important point is safety. This is new technology with all the enthusiasm comes novelty and inexperience. The E-Cat gets hot, very hot, past the temperature of boiling water and there are 106 of them in a smallish box. It’s not something the untrained need to be near.

These points also have thrown the brakes on consumer-sized units. The certification and safety agencies that need to sign off on something like this require extensive testing before they will approve it to be made available to the general public. It would seem the famed UL Laboratories attempt is on hold. That makes sense, as the UL isn’t holding a protocol in the files for the testing. Something has to be built up and the experience needed is sparse at best – missing as a practical matter – for any protocol at all.

Mr. Rossi is getting data and did say that these plants consume only 1 gram of Nickel for every 23 000 MWh [clarified as per request of Andrea Rossi here]  of heat they produce.

There is also a hotter running model called the “Hot-Cat”. The Hot-Cat runs at 350ºC and Mr. Rossi said it is “very stable.” At this temperature, he said that creating electricity will be easy, and that they are making progress on building one. He also confirmed that the European based world wide operating firm Siemens is still working with his firm to generate electricity.

The Hot-Cat is garnering attention as well. A test was run back in late March with over 120 hours of continuous no interruption running. The test was run by four professors from different parts of the world, with Mr. Rossi absent, though he was available if they had any questions. The professors used their instrumentation and they controlled the cabling. The group hasn’t provided Mr. Rossi with the exact results but he said, “they were “smiling” and indicated that it was “very good””.

Meanwhile Mr. Rossi is staffing up. The company has 2 specialists working on electronics for the control systems. They have made enormous progress in the last 7-8 months. They also work on any kind of thing connected with electricity.

There are 3 specialists working on thermal technical problems: thermal dynamics, upgrading the heat exchanger and upgrading the energy density. Two specialists are working on design, external aesthetics as well as functionality and space utilization for energy density optimization.

There is a team that makes tests of plants, to run plants; to invent new things that improve efficiency. Plus a manufacturing team and another team working on prototype design in the U.S. (for 1 MW plants).

Perhaps one item of interest to many working on the technology from other ideas is Mr. Rossi’s explanation of how the reactor starts. He explained that each module has essentially two apparatuses inside: and activator and the reactor. He calls the resistive heater element the “mouse” and the reactor the “cat”. It takes a little tease from the mouse getting in front of the cat’s nose for the cat to go off running. He compares this to the little amount of energy required to get the reaction going, using outside electricity to bring the resistive heater up to a temperature that the reaction takes place. Of the two components, the reactor is only “the size of a whiskey bottle”.

For the future Mr. Rossi noted most of the R&D would stay in Italy, but that the rest of the operations are taking place in the U.S. (Florida). At one point in the conversation he talked about the friendliness of Sweden to his company, due to their need for heat and their environmental consciousness. They are in process of developing manufacturing capability there as well.

For many the Rossi E-Cat story is about the news and promotion efforts. That would be quite a story in its own right, but for most of us Mr. Rossi’s progress depends on the ability to attract enough attention to get the edge of the wedge into the market while building up a stronger technology and attracting the world’s best innovative minds to help.

We’re coming up on three years of watching Mr. Rossi. Most any fraud would have fallen apart long ago. What is actually here for the future is getting less cloudy and a bit clearer for our inspection. If you want to gripe – take it to the patent offices – were these bureaucrats helping we’d have a very complete look. Until that happens the game of information release will have to be played to keep the intellectual property secure while luring just enough customers to keep development on track.

However one feels about Mr. Rossi one must respect that he has come quite a long way and looks to be on track for further progress. Your humble writer wishes him God’s Speed and good luck – as he surely needs them.

By. Brian Westenhaus

  • Bob

    Sorry admin. I only just noticed that you have put an invite on the Rossi blog for him to visit this particular thread and I have posted a few comments which are less than complimentary.
    While I stand by what I said it is very poor form to sledge someone who has been invited to drop in and it appears I have done just that.
    Fell free to delete any that you want.

  • HarryD

    The article writes “The test was run by four professors from different parts of the world, with Mr. Rossi absent, though he was available if they had any questions.”
    Shouldn’t it be 15 persons among which professors from 4 different universities?

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      Maybe it was 14 people (scientists and/or engineers) altogether, 4 of which were professors representing 4 different universities.

  • Richard Hill

    Have I missed something?
    Has Rossi ever been asked just “why does he keep on blogging.?”
    If I was a serious large scale commercial partner of an inventor, I would insist on controlling all communications.
    I would refuse to let the inventor blog away.
    I would insist that, if there are any interviews, there be at least one lawyer present.
    Was there a lawyer present at the recent interview?

  • Andre Blum

    Rossi is working on 100 kW tigers with COP in the hundreds:

    Andrea Rossi
    May 9th, 2013 at 8:18 PM
    Dear Tom Conover:
    We are testing low temperature tigers, for now, of 100 kW. All our reactors now have activator and E-Cat, allowing us an activator with a COP more than 1 and E-Cat with COP in the hundreds.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Tom Conover
    May 9th, 2013 at 6:58 PM
    Dear Andrea,

    Could you power the larger Tiger with a 10Kw E-Cat activator, perhaps, or are you staying with resistors? Would the Tiger be 350 degrees too, for a larger turbine?

    Very exciting concepts! Thank you for sharing.

    Roaring Regards,

    T.C.

    Andrea Rossi
    May 9th, 2013 at 4:52 PM
    Dear Toussaint francois:
    Yes, we are working also on it, even if it is not easy: a “cat” that weights 200 kg changes name into “tiger”.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Toussaint françois
    May 9th, 2013 at 11:47 AM
    Dear mr Rossi

    I have heard your recent interview , and

    talking about the faboulus potentiel power

    with 1 gr of Nikel.

    Do you forsee in a near futur individual ECAT

    with more power 100 Kwh , 1000 Kwh ?

    It would mean less ECATS in a container.

    Thank you

    • Kim

      So there you have it.

      COP in the hundreds.

      Unlimited Free Energy.

      That will put the fear of God in the
      Oil industry.

      1 watt in
      100 watts out

      Respect
      Kim

    • Lukedc

      I feel that the immediate development of this may have been a stipulation of his American partner.
      If they are in the utilities game then they would be very keen to have a bolt on replacement for coal fired power generation.

      • Kim

        Yes Sir, that is just about
        the way I see it also.

        Respect
        Kim

    • Ted-X

      Rossi is ahead of competition, perhaps at a distance of two years. Rossi’s weak spot is that he keeps his catalyst as a trade secret. Once the competitors will figure out what is the catalyst (there is probably about 20 competitors working under the radar at this time), then they could patent it and stop Rossi from using that catalyst (or ask him for royalties, if they will be nice). It is a “rat race” right now and Rossi is vulnerable, in spite of his great contribution to the LENR technology. To patent the catalyst or to keep it as a trade secret (for how long would that be possible?) is the question which must be very stressful for Rossi.

      • lukedc

        The secret sauce could be his undoing..

        • stuey81

          the secret ingredient is……..love, alright whos been screwing with the anylizer again?

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      He might also mean that inside the Reactor, the Mouse has a COP of 1.1 (as he said in the interview) and the Cat has its own COP of hundreds (not counting the Mouse; it’s so high because it only uses some control power) so that the overall Reactor has a COP not in hundreds but closer to 6,10,20, whatever.

      I don’t know if he means this or that the entire Reactor indeed has an overall COP in the hundreds. I doubt the latter because once COP exceeds 25 or so, its exact value becomes less important (25 means that 4% of power must be circulated back). If high COP would be within reach easily, he wouldn’t develop cumbersome Gas-Cats.

      • artefact

        Yes, “an activator with a COP more than 1 and E-Cat with COP in the hundreds” sounds like it.

    • lenrdawn

      I am very worried by this development. We started out with small reactors in the 1-5 kW range for home use. Then that was delayed and we were told industrial units were the way to go, so we got the container. Then suddenly that was no longer important and everything concentrated on the hot cat. Then the mouse. Now the tiger.

      There is a pattern here which I don’t like at all – and the fact that this “tiger” thing is popping up at a time when we’re supposed to see an independent 3rd party report only adds to the uncomfortable feeling.

      • Blanco69

        I agree. I think someone, maybe Pekka, pointed out in a recent thread that there would me more warm cats out there if there was no Hot Cat. Are the Hot Cats now being drowned in a sack because we have tigers to play with? On the other hand, I can see that this situation could develop naturally as Rossi and the team uncover more aspects of this new technology. However, I’d like to see some harder ecat evidence before we start playing with tigers.

        • lenrdawn

          But isn’t “uncovering more aspects of a new technology” an integral part of everything? Imagine the Wright Brothers had kept their first plane secret and never sold one because they thought about the monoplane and once they had developed that, they saw the promise of the jet engine and metal fuselage and once they had a secret 727 they thought it used too much fuel and decided not to sell it because they had just invented the turbofan engine and the 747 was on the horizon and just when they were about to enter the market, Wilbur had that idea about stealth technology? It makes absolutely no sense from a business perspective.

          • SteveW

            Rossi may have cracked the door to a practical use of LENR but he knows it will be torn off it’s hinges by the rest of the world once they realize what he’s found. It’s like being the first inventor to practically utilize electricity and you don’t even know why it works. It’s an impossible task and it must be maddening to him.

            • lenrdawn

              If that was his primary concern, then why has he made semi-public demos, why is he posting on his blog and why has he allowed the 3rd party report? The only reason I can see for him doing all that would be that he wants the world to realize what he’s found, wouldn’t it?

              • artefact

                I’m sure Rossi does a blancing act between tell everyone and doing his business (covering ip, respect all contracts, doing what the management wants). 1.5 years ago we lernt, that he made the Jan demonstration because Focardi was ill and wanted to share this discovery in his lifetime. A bit later Focardi also gave a TED talk.

                The 3rd party report seems to be necessary due to patent or some businesscontracts. I thing Rossi said that he would not have done it if it wasn’t necessary.

      • Roger Bird

        It might be called the “Babbage Syndrome”. Babbage never finished his mechanical computer because he kept wanting to add really cool things to it.

      • Thinks4Self

        I wouldn’t connect the Tiger with the 3rd party report just yet, but I do see where you are coming from.

        Let’s be completely honest with ourselves what has a better chance of reaching the market first and making money for Rossi and partners, a low cost low power unit for home use or more costly higher power rated ones that can produce energy on a commercial scale?

        A commercial scaled unit is more likely to find buyers at first at least in numbers that make it viable to produce. The home scaled unit will have to sell many many more just to reach a brake even point. If you are not making money or at the very least breaking even your are not going to produce the product unless you have billions to throw away like Sony did on their video game system. Most break-through technologies roll out for commercial/industrial grade products before consumer grade products due to this reasoning.

        A 100kW thermal unit is only going to produce maybe 30kW of electricity in the end so at that point you are just breaking into the realm of useful power levels for commercial use. That one 100kW unit would have 1/10 the parts and controls of 10 10kW units making it more reliable, easier to service and less costly both to produce and sell per kW of power out. So a 100kW unit makes sense to me as a product. A 1MW single reactor unit makes even more sense, that probably would be called the ‘Sabre-Tooth’ if it is ever built, since that is the only cat I can think of that is bigger.

        • Roger Bird

          Are we assuming that an e-tiger is more powerful than an e-cat?

          And before you answer that question, I will point out that instead of a Babbage Syndrome, Rossi may be looking at a Schwarzkopf campaign, hit them from land, sea, and air. Perhaps all of these felines will hit the market at the same time and intellectually, emotionally, and financially shock the world, which needs to be woken-up.

          • Thinks4Self

            You may very well be right about multiple power sizes coming out at the same time, that would be an excellent way of getting and keeping control of the potential market. Which would also feed into the why on natural gas powered models as well.

            In my view a utility would want a natural gas powered one over an electrically powered one due to less initial cost for conversion. The generator not the boiler is the expensive part, so most utilities do not have many extra generators beyond what they need for max demand. An electrically initiated E-Cat would likely lower their max power generation capacity due to having to feed output back to the E-Cats, so they would have to add more generators to maintain their max capacity.

            With a natural gas initiated E-Cat only the boilers need to be replaced. The 85% or greater reduction in fuel usage would pay for the new boiler(E-Cat) rather quickly. This would also allow for incremental change out for smaller utilities that do not have large budgets. Makes good business sense but would likely infuriate the environmentalists since gas would still being burned.

            • Roger Bird

              I am an environmentalist.

              Having said that, many environmental religionists are immature, and, so, of course they become infuriated easily. Too bad.

              • Thinks4Self

                I tend to be more of a humanist, but I do appreciate the beauty and bounty of nature. I guess that comes from growing up and living in Colorado where we still have so much unspoiled land. I did not intend for environmentalist to come out sounding like a four letter word.

                • Roger Bird

                  I am also a Coloradoan.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Somewhere in the distant past Rossi said he sold 13 1mW plants to “the military”. Apparently those were never delivered. If the military 1mW plant is so successful why isn’t he selling more?

    • Thinksforself

      Do you have a link to where he said that he sold 13 of them? I thought he had said with the possibility of 13 more but that has been a while ago.

      Also not to be nit picky but 1mW = 1 milliwatt 1MW = 1 megawatt

  • Roger Bird

    I respect mainstream physicists enough to demand that Rossi proves his E-Cat. I am hopeful, I am very strongly inclined to believe him given all of the soft/social evidence that we have, but he still has to prove it.

  • Sean

    Come on ECAT. I guess we should have them soon. Just had a quote on a 4 foot copper boiler for my 3 cyl, 7 1/4″ Loco (4472). It is £7495 inc VAT. ($11,579.06 US.) I need steam @ 120PSI (176.6 degrees Celsius.) then Super heated if possible. I calculate about 4KW energy. Question, shall I hold off and wait for the Ecat / Hot cat?

    • hempenearth

      Hi Sean, my guess is that it is for personal use and you would want to show it off to the public. That would probably disqualify you as a customer for at least a few years. Can you wait a few years?

      • Sean

        Hempenearth. You got me figured out. Just in the last stages of building the motion work. I plan to put the Hot cat inside the barrel. You know that wonderful glow of the Hot cat picture! Well when I open the firebox door the public will see what they perceive as fire. Real fire – Rossie’s fusion fire. (I will have some pretend coal on hand.) Fiendish. So you see I am an outdoor sort of feller, I know there is a need for house warming stuff + TV and electrical. But I want Ecat to provide motion. Want to use it to go places, land, air & sea. (Ok perhaps a little orbit or so.) No I can’t wait a few years, want ECAT fire now!

        • Miles

          +1. Personally i’d like this technology to move towards http://ecatcar.org/home.php & from the estimate I was given by eCatCar – i was told it will be about 20 years until a car is developed on LENR.

          But with recent Battery Technology improvement, search google news “battery breakthrough”, we may not have to rely on LENR.

          • Peter Roe

            Battery, shmattery – who needs to cart a box of chemicals around! LENR would allow a simple, lightweight propulsion system using 1920/30s technology in modern materials to directly replace IC, perhaps even as a retrofit. Given a working ‘hot cat’ I would think that a working prototype could be built in under a year, using an existing vehicle model or ‘kit car’ as the basis.

  • Torbjörn

    I belive that the device that Mats Lewan refers to as a “device producing frequencies” in 2011 is a variac.

    http://www.forumbilder.com/images/2013/05/09/Device_that_emits_frequenciesl4MuW.png

    Translated:
    Mats Lewan, Ny Teknik, 9 October 2011 23:33
    The brown cylinder is a radiation meter.
    The red pumps are not used.
    The connectors next to the entrance of the resistor is to Rossi’s “frequency generator”. A device that we do not know what it does, but its power was included in the half-amp used during the self sustained mode. Rossi says that it is a feature that was previously integrated into the blue box.
    And yes, the blue box should have been turned off. It would have been clearer, and I can not see any reason to why it couldn’t be done.

    http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3284821.ece?service=mobile&content=main&commentsPos=315

    • Torbjörn

      2) What is the power consumption of the device that “produces frequencies” that was mentioned in the NyTeknik article? Although the power consumption of this device is probably insignificant, providing a figure could help put to rest the idea (that some are suggesting) that a large amount of power was being consumed by the frequency-generating device, and transmitted into the reactor.

      THE ENERGY CONSUMED FROM THE FREQUENCY GENERATOR IS 50 WH/H AND IT HAS BEEN CALCULATED, BECAUSE THIS APPARATUS WAS PLUGGED IN THE SAME LINE WHERE THE ENERGY-CONSUME MEASUREMENT HAS BEEN DONE

      c) Some are suggesting that this device is “the” catalyst that drives the reactions in the reactor core. However, you have stated in the past that the catalyst is actually one or more physical elements (in addition to nickel and hydrogen) that are placed in the reactor core. Can you confirm that physical catalysts are used in the reactor?

      YES, I CONFIRM THIS

      http://www.energikatalysatorn.se/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=305

      http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/News:Real-Time_Updates_on_the_October_6,_2011_E-Cat_Test

  • Roger Bird

    I was perfectly happy and well informed with the OilPrice.com article. A few patho-skeptics deposited their dung in the comments section; I guess they gave up here trying to convince us all to look upon the world with their black-tinted classes. We all know that Rossi has not been proven to the world beyond a shadow of a doubt. We all know that we can all take back anything good that we said about Rossi in case he turns out to be a fraud. And we all know that should Rossi ask any of us for money that we should be given a opportunity to have free access to one of his E-Cats in order to make certain for ourselves.

    • Alp

      I think the problem is that Rossi has already gotten a good deal of money from investors. Nobody seems to know who they are or what they saw to convince them to part with their money.

      As for the “pathoskeptics” you mention, try to disarm them with facts, if you have any. Name calling won’t help.

      The reason skeptical posts are rarely seen in this forum is because they are vigorously discouraged and at least in the past, they were forcefully removed (as in “censored”).

      • Roger Bird

        Alp, I notice that you are still here.

        We bristle at patho-skeptics not because they are skeptics but because they refuse to look at the evidence and then go about name calling. I know because I refused to drink the Rossi drink for a long time fearing that it might be kool-aid. Currently, there are a lot of skeptics here, and I don’t see put-downs, and if there were, I would be defending the skeptics.

        • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

          My approach to this is that instead of trying to “know” if it’s real or fraud, I’m trying to check the compatibility of “facts” (pieces of information that we hear from primary sources) with a “truth theory” and with a “scam theory”. Thus far my saldo is that everything fits with truth theory and nothing with scam theory. For two years ago I tried to develop various scam theories, for example that maybe Rossi’s wife or other close person is arranging fake experiments without AR knowing about it to make him believe that he has finally succeeded as an inventor, or that AR himself would have some kind of double personality (daytime/nighttime), etc. etc. However, these theories failed rather miserably, and so has every other scam theory that I have heard of.

          • Jim

            +1

            nicely stated

          • http://www.e-catworld.com admin

            “Everything fits with the truth theory”

            That’s the way I see it, Pekka. You put it very well!

            • Alp

              I suppose you can justify the absence of a single approachable customer and the lack of any tests done independent of Rossi by “business practices” but in my opinion, that’s pretty thin! Otherwise, I don’t see how those facts fit into a truth theory.

            • captain

              U’ve done a good job, Frank, in keeping this blog running smooth.

            • Barry

              But my question is, is there an exaggeration theory?

              • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

                Bingo!

              • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

                I think that like any inventor, AR works in different modes: idea mode, exploration mode, verification mode, engineering mode, industrial development mode, commercial mode. He works in one mode at a time and often blogs about it because he is basically open about things which are not secret. It is my guess that today’s E-tiger comment comes from the idea or exploration mode.

                • dzejk

                  What do your theories say about Yildiz, Rohner and Defkalion?

                  I do not have a reason to believe Rossi yet. I know he does not have to prove anything, but why is he constantly blogging and interacting with the public? Obviously he has a need of attention.

                  Keep in mind Rossi != LENR. If I doubt Rossi it does not mean I do not believe in LENR.

                • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

                  dzejk: By blogging in the way he does, he can share his enthusiasm with others and also absorb ideas and customer needs from them without revealing his secrets.

                  DGT: we have at least one leaked positive external report. Rohner: quite sceptical. Yildiz: haven’t heard the name.

          • NJT

            Yes, I too have followed a similar roadmap, on cold fusion (LENR), since 1989 when P & F first announced. I believe Mr. Rossie has a Tiger by the tail alright, but would never part with my hard earned cash until a PROVEN product appears…

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            +1

        • Bob

          Yes but is this his first appearance. Maybe he was here before and after a forceful ejection from the site has been re-spawned in another guise.
          It does happen you know.
          Don’t be angry. They are only trying to save you from yourself. 🙂

    • Touussaint françois

      MARYYUGO is still healthy in the OILPRICE forum and many other forum as

      well.

      Why waste so much time and effort?

      I wonder where he gets his paycheck

      • Roger Bird

        Why would you think that maryyugo was a male? Because a female wouldn’t be such a pathoskeptic?

        • artefact

          no, we found out some time ago.

          • Thinks4Self

            So is MARYYUGO really Krivit? Their writing styles seem very similar to me.

            • hempenearth

              Mary Yugo is George Hody, from San Diego

              • Thinks4Self

                Thanks, mystery solved.

        • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

          If it’s a male, I think the writing style was made up on purpose to sound feminine. Not impossible, but would tell about strong effort to hide identity.

      • Wes

        Dr. Hody is trained in Aerospace Medicine, from San Diego, CA, and a graduate of University of California, Los Angeles David Geffen School of Medicine, class of 1964.

        • Roger Bird

          There goes his credibility with me, right into the trash can.

        • Bob

          Which is probably why he can spend so much time ducking in and out of various forums. He is apparently old and probably retired and he probably spends quite a bit of time on the computer doing other stuff and just ducks in and out of a forum as a side distraction. Maybe a side distraction for when the stockmarket is slow?

  • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

    1) “..what was delivered to the U.S. military customer.” Did he indeed say somewhere that it was specifically U.S. military customer? I thought it was just military.

    2) The volume of the Cat in the mouse-cat system (presumably of 1 kW nominal power) is whisky glass (1 desilitre), not whisky bottle.

    • KD

      “To the U.S. military customer” was delivered 1MW plant similar to the tested in Bologna but assembled in USA.
      The plant was not delivered immediately but after making changes requested by the customer.

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        OK, I missed that. It’s new info then, I think. Earlier the country was secret as I recall.

        • Bob

          I think that was the only time he has said it was the US military. Prior to this it was always covered by a strict NDA. I noticed immediately because all other references were only to a “military customer” and the assumption was that it was the Italian military because it was an Italian engineer who supposedly did the acceptance test. A colonel no less. I have a copy of the acceptance report and it was very basic for the acceptance of something like that. But this only means something if you believe one was sold at all to any military because as we now know, the one which passed the acceptance test was not delivered to anyone.
          I wonder if they did another acceptance test on the new one before that was delivered?

      • Thinks4Self

        If it truly was a ‘US Military customer’, then it was the NAVY without question. They are in desperate need of a way to retrofit power generation on to existing ships so they can deploy their new laser defense system on them without sacrificing power to the screws.

        • Roger Bird

          And don’t forget those rail guns. They eat up a lot of energy, and they work much better in fog and clouds than do laser guns. They idea of blasting a heavy piece of metal down range at a million miles per hour really inspires me.

          • Thinks4Self

            In truth everything thing they need power for could come from hot cats or ‘Very Hot Cats’ if they are willing to sacrifice a little safety for performance. Replacing conventional or nuclear boilers with some form of LENR reactor would finally give them the promise of a fleet with low fueling costs without the need of tankers. That could be the reasoning for production in Florida, easy transshipment to the repair yards in Virginia Beach and New Orleans.

    • Omega Z

      Pekka

      I know some dedicated whiskey drinkers.
      So Whiskey Glass for me is quite variable.
      Some will hold a fifth then some. 🙂

    • Omega Z

      Pekka

      I suspect it was the NRL(Naval Research Lab). Sometime ago, Another LENR project was supposedly compared to Rossi’s E-cat. BY the NRL.

      I don’t recall the persons name, But it was this person complaining.
      This comes off as NOT A ROSSI SAYS, but a different party. I Believe he also claimed that certain Info was passed on to Rossi.

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        Yes I vaguely remember that too, but my point was just that AR probably hasn’t publicly identified the customer before, except by saying that it’s a military one and that its name starts with “N”. I remember when it was discussed in ECN in autumn 2011 if it’s Navy or NATO or…

  • robyn wyrick

    This was a very optimistic (and in my POV, rightly so) assessment of Rossi’s current condition. Thanks for posting it.

    It puts us back on three points:

    1 – LENR is being experimented with by many other researchers, who are reporting important successes, and so it is entirely plausible that Rossi is as credible as any.

    2 – The fears that Rossi is lying have to be put against the extended investment of time, effort, and presumably money he has made – and yet without any apparent victim of fraud stepping forward.

    3 – The wait for the great leap forward is going to be a long one.

    My $0.02

    • Roger Bird

      I find your $0.02 to be two mint condition 1909 pennies.

      I am not an expert on frauds, but if you and oilprice.com say that it is getting a little old to be a fraud, I will believe you. Remember that the length of time for a fraud to remain a secret should be shorter in the Internet Age.

      • KD

        >>>>>Remember that the length of time for a fraud to remain a secret should be shorter in the Internet Age<<<<<

        But in case of John Rohner and Iranian "Nuclear scientist" Keshe "the Internet Age" was helpful for many years to collect big money from naive investors.

    • Alp

      It would be easy to tell if Rossi is real or a fraud if he would simply allow testing by a well known public agency. Also, if he would name a single independent customer who could be interviewed and the equipment could be seen in operation. It is mystifying that he doesn’t do that.

      As for the amount of time and effort, it wouldn’t be unusual. Look at Steorn, for example. They have burned through more than €20 million and more than six years without producing, properly testing, or selling a single product! And there are no complaints or prosecutions yet! Perhaps the investors signed contracts which waived their rights in the event that the products didn’t work. Maybe the same is true for Rossi’s.

      • Roger Bird

        Alp, good example. You convinced me.

        Just kidding. But I will keep it in mind.

      • Jim

        “It is mystifying that he doesn’t do that.”

        So, you cannot think of a single rational explanation for it, and by claiming mystical, i.e., not real, you wish to imply that Rossi’s is not real.

        Except that, you didn’t really propose and shoot down any possible rational explanations. You just jumped to “mystifying” as if that were suddenly the truth.

        Why? Possibly because it fulfilled your forgone conclusion/agenda?

        With such behavior, is there any real question about why many of the contributors are tired/wary of pseudo/patho skeptics?

        • Alp

          Hi Jim. Mystifying as in “mystery”, not mythical. Sorry if I was unclear.

          No, I can not think of a single reason why Rossi continues to give interviews and to write promotional web sites and literature and to respond on JONP when it would be so easy to prove by other means that the ecat is real and works without endangering any of his intellectual property.

          Can you think of a good reason why he acts as he does? Why he contradicts himself all the time? Why he won’t reveal a single customer? Why he doesn’t let a famous lab or company or university test his ecat and *report* the findings in the open press and scientific literature? I can’t. And maybe he’s doing it but if so, there is nothing to be seen, heard or read yet, is there? How long are you willing to wait?

          • Roger Bird

            I am willing to wait until the day that I die. Of course, my interest will wane and I will have to read about it in the mainstream news media if I have to “wait” long enough.

          • Jim

            3 decades of exposure to Silicon Valley plus my own work easily tells me that Rossi as paranoid, once badly burnt entrepreneur explains all of that. So, you don’t have much exposure to that sort of thing? What is your background?

            And what’s this stuff about: “And maybe he’s doing it but if so, there is nothing to be seen, heard or read yet, is there?” This is rhetorical manipulation attempting to establish “truths” by simply asserting them in a slightly strained emotional way? OMG! This is so unbelievable! How can anyone think this would be true!

            Gentlemen, I believe we have discovered a “Repeating Rhetorical Manipulator”.

            Let’s keep count on how many more times Mssr. Alp chooses to continue that behavior, after he’s been called out on it.

            • GreenWin

              Correct Jim. You identify one of the textbook traits of disinfo ops. Endless repetition of effluvia. Ash will have to change his name to… colonel?

      • David

        Steorn had €20 million and more from investors to research and test.
        Instead Rossi sells 1 MW E-Cat Plants.
        It’s completely different: Rossi has to guarantee a product to the buyers.

        • Roger Bird

          If Rossi actually is selling plants to customers, then that’s the game. Rossi wins. But we don’t know if he is.

      • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

        Look up SBIR grants. That is a sterling example of the US Govt investing millions into things that never go anywhere. There are several companies that live off this quite well. I assure you most all of them are not frauds, it’s just hard to get something to actually work like you think it is.

        As far as validation by a third party. I was greatful that he said it was done but I personally would not have done it until I had to. Plenty of private investor validation but not public, reason being simple. As my mom always says the most advatageous thing the devil ever did is make people believe he doesn’t exist.

        Point is obvious. If the public believes LENR is not real, nobody competes with you. Apparently plenty of people invest in you though.

        • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

          I should really have said “tend to never go anywhere”

          That would be much more accurate

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        By the way, since Steorn pops up from time to time here, here’s my opinion. I haven’t followed it in the forums, I just know that there is some fuzz about overunity devices and I looked at their website steorn.com.

        They seem to develop magnetic bearings, inductive water heaters and something which is more unclear. It looks to me that they are an otherwise normal company except that they try to attract customers by adding some stuff-of-the-legend/overunity/supernatural elements – a bit like what Santa Clause is to Lappish tourism or Frankenstein to Transsylvania. As I can see they do not make direct overunity claims of their products on their website.

  • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

    There are devices everywhere hotter than boiling water so this does
    not make sense to delay the domestic low temperature e-cat for that
    reason.

    It also does not make sense for UL to say “on hold” for testing of a small device or product of this importance.

    • Warthog

      It’s not “how it runs” that matters, it’s “how it fails”. And without many hours on many separate units, one cannot be sure that one has seen all possible modes and mechanisms of failure.

      • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

        One can never be certain. No one can explore all possible
        means of failure. All manufactured goods are “mean time before failure”. similarly safety is if it is within reasonable limits for the intended purpose. Cooking is dangerous and there are unfortunate accidents and incidents
        and we can avoid them and take precautions and build safeguards but reasonable people still cook food and are taught the dangers.

        • Omega Z

          Allan

          They require a certain amount of Data to determine a safety threshold. 1 in 100K or 1 in 1 Million.
          At present they don’t have enough Info to make that determination.

          Certification Agencies take on a certain Legal Liability when they Certify a product. They could in fact be sued if their threshold was considered unreasonably low & many people are injured/killed.

          Their Certification will involve Multiple Variables, But a Simplification would be something like this Example:

          A Fossil Fuel Energy production will result in:
          10 Fatalities/deaths per 1000 People
          30 health/environmental Issues per 1000 People.

          An E-cat/LENR Energy production will result in:
          1 Fatalities/deaths per 1000 People
          10 health/environmental Issues per 1000 People.

          As I Said, Their process will involve many variables & much more complex, But the numbers will determine it’s Certification or Not.

          • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

            Hopefully global warming and fission power plants can last that long.

      • atanguy

        If I’m not mistaken,the 1 MW plant is made of over 100 E-cat reactors similar to the domestic E-cat and the plant has been tested over 200 hours. So: 100*200= 20,000 hours of test. This should satisfy any UL agency. I think the brake on the domestic E-cat is political.

        • Omega Z

          atanguy

          The Certification is much more complex then most realize. Read my above post for a better understanding of what that entails.

          I would suspect it will require several million hours total & a slightly lower number per individual Core Hours. Several 1000 hours each. A Couple years.

          Also, Unless there are 1Mw units in private use we’re unaware of, I doubt there is ANY Acceptable Data/Hours at present for certification. The Military Unit probably doesn’t count- It’s research grade.

          The DATA will probably all have to come from Industrial/Commercial Units under regular Use. The 1 which has just been shipped. Not Yet in Use.

          No doubt the research data will be looked at, but the Data that counts isn’t available yet.

          • atanguy

            “several million hours”
            I wonder if my water heater has been tested so long. Frankly I doubt it Omega z…

  • Hampus

    The invention of the Hot cat might also have delayed the production of plants. Instead of focusing 100% on building new and improved warm cat plants Rossi shifted a lot of his focus to his new invention the Hot cat.

    I think that if the Hotcat was not in the picture we would have a lot more warm cat plants up and running by now.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Were I an industrial customer for a “warm-cat”, and I heard about the new “Hot-Cat”, I’m pretty sure I would say, “Put my order on hold, and upgrade me to a “Hot-Cat” as soon as you’ve perfected it.”

    • Kim

      They can’t introduce the technology at
      any level.

      They are still trying to figure out how to
      meter it!

      Any device on the market will start reverse
      engineering processes and then loss of revenue

      its a real pickle.

      Respect
      Kim

      • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

        But Rossi is right, at some cost point it doesn’t matter. It will cost you the same or more to build it yourself so you just buy it. Any competitor has presumably got to go through the same engineering challenges and is therefor maybe 1-2 years to market. That’s a long time for a monopoly just as Apple.

        However the real problem is not reverse engineering it’s somebody else figuring out how to make it better and possibly how it works.

        Somebody else figuring out how to make it better is certainly a loss of revenue and could put you out of business at some point.

        Somebody else figuring out how it works is the worst because now you know how to maximize it and you can go into totally new products and markets that are uncontested.

        Assuming Rossi has partial control and limited understanding of his device, Rossi has to trade several things. In an ideal situation he cherry picks his customers and lives off that income until he can get the thing figured out and write a patent that shields him well. But if he waits too long for full rate production of whatever he has, he could be usurped by the likes of DGT or Piantelli. Or he waits too long and dies. Or he waits too long and the public lashes out at him, once they see he had it, for delaying it.
        On the flip side, if he’s too quick to full rate production, somebody reverse engineers it, figures the theory out, and then Rossi is just a memory.

        Because of that I like what DGT is doing, just investing in other companies through some type of licensing and letting them develop the technology in each area while they get fat dumb and happy earning royalties. That’s what I would have done.

  • Jack

    If I take the report at face value and from my experience with new product development everything is moving along at a reasonable pace. As outsiders we wait with baited breath and every delay seems like an eternity. The E-Cat is a revolutionary new product, I can be patient.

  • Roger Bird

    Plasma Cycle Engine: I notice in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHxYqnev59g that Roberts and Rohner seems to be measuring power by way of voltage. Voltage is NOT a measure of power. Free energy promoters have made this mistake in the past, and this is why they think that they have created free energy, while real engineers know that they have not created free energy. Voltage times amperage equals power. Power over time equals energy. I hope that he is not making this mistake.

    However, even if he does not have a free energy device, this kind of an engine could be the basis for a better electric motor, assuming that the efficiency is better than the coil type electric motor. It is, however, very noisy, and I won’t be having one in my house anytime soon.

    • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

      Russ Grie’s experiment clearly demonstrated power.

      The power is directly related to the shock wave of the gas expansion.

      The shock wave creates the force of power and this is directly related
      to the arc voltage.

      Voltage is not a measure of power in pure electrical terms without conversion but it is related to the amount of force and mechanical power produced by the plasma expansion for example the lifting of a weight on top of a piston.

      The arc voltage triggers the ionized plasma state gas expansion and the sudden momentary intensity creates the shock wave force.

      • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

        For the gas plasma dynamic there are some things that need to be considered about the process and these have not been well documented but they cannot be ruled out from what has been seen so far.

        For one thing the question of input power. With a common 12 volt battery ignition system the capacitors work in-between the piston firing storing voltage to 40000 plus intensity to the spark plug arc. This happens very fast in an automobile engine with the RPM cycle.

        Is this enough to create useable gas expansion? I do not know.

        Also consider that the plasma state is a dynamic of the transformation of a state of matter. Is there an additional useable dynamic in the ion collisions or forces? Not really tested but there is a sub atomic phenomenon other than the voltage itself over the longer time of the ion excitation cycle.

      • Roger Bird

        Dear Allan, could you post the link to the Russ Grie demo.

    • atanguy

      Roger: This demo is only to prove that the Rotary Engine works,turns,with the Papp’s pop. It was not a measurement of power.
      Look at Russ Grie’s tests on youtube for more explanation.

      • Roger Bird

        I have watched some of them. It’s like a lot of what MFMP puts out: boring. I guess that is the problem with open source research. But I like it nevertheless. I can’t see how anyone can accuse Russ Gries (or MFMP) of con artistry. Of course, Gries is actually getting power out and MFMP is still mucking around with basically nothing, as far as I can tell. I wish that all these guys, MFMP, Rohner, Roberts, Gries, et. al. would have a page devoted to really interesting stuff that show real energy breakthroughs. I swear, I might use some of these videos to get to sleep tonight. Honest.

        • catbauer24

          no, it’s not like MFPF (which IS truly open). The Rohners keep secrets, fortunately it appears Bob is only trying to fool himself with papps claims and not others with his own, unlike his brother JR.

          • Roger Bird

            Rohner is not so open, yes. But Russ Gries is absurdly open.

            I know that cognitive dissonance can be a bitch, but perhaps this will help. Can we assume that you and I and the rest of the human race is living in the midst of dark energy and dark matter. Or, did it magically not happen to be around Planet Earth? I thought not. So we are living IN it. But where is it? Is it possible that these two darkies are where the energy that Papp and even LENR come from. Remember that the LENR theories are quite unproven. Perhaps there is some feature or aspect to matter that we don’t quite grasp that allows some configurations of what we call matter to get at dark matter and dark energy. Just a thought.

  • Kim

    President Obama met with big oil yesterday
    in secret behind closed doors.

    Makes you wonder.

    They said it was about the industries response
    to Hurricane Sandy and future storms energy
    allocations ect…

    Makes you wonder…

    Respect
    Kim

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      Could be true, since in Washington the Rosslogan “what is secret, is secret” doesn’t apply. But still: Source?

  • Randy Bryan

    Unfortunately, the 1g example above came from Rossi in the interview.

    • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

      And the 1g example was, well, hooey. He discussed the amount of energy that nickel converts to if the nickel is annihilated. My understanding, however, is that the nickel is not annihilated, but turned to copper. The resultant energy per gram of nickel, therefore is very much less.

      This is the kind of statement that causes me to minstrust Rossi.

      • Blanco69

        I dont think we can even be sure that transmutation is taking place at all. My hope hope is that this is a new process that does not involve transmutation bit still produces some form of excess heat.

        • Kim

          The excess energy has to becoming
          from somewhere.

          Einstein’s E=mc2 is a good place
          to start.

          Respect
          Kim

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        “Consumption” of nickel may be hard to define unambiguously if what happens is that one isotopes transforms to another one, or copper (which is at the moment more expensive than nickel), or if hydrogen goes to helium, etc. But defining the mass loss by Einstein’s equation is unambiguous in all cases. I don’t think he claimed in the interview that it’s nickel consumpion, because he spoke about marmelade etc. It’s mass consumption. That much of mass disappears from the universe and transforms into energy.

        • Roger Bird

          Well, see, it’s not sustainable. Eventually we will run out of mass, then what will we do? I am going to buy mass futures because mass will soon become very valuable. In fact, I have already stockpiled some mass around my belly. We’ll see who the financial genius is, won’t we!?!?

          • artefact

            🙂 I did some housekeeping and found some of that stuff, too. Under my carpet seems to be my new money box.

        • Omega Z

          Pekka

          I would Note, People are overlooking the Hydrogen here which is most likely providing nearly all the Energy & Nickel is just 1 of the Enablers. It’s been stated multiple times that Transmutation of NI to Copper is merely a side effect. Not the primary source of Energy.

          • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

            I agree with you Omega. Muon catalyzed fusion is a good place to look for clues. And those lead to Hydrogen as the main culprit not Ni which as you mentioned should just be a catalyst.

      • Roger Bird

        Bruce, you are right. Except that you shouldn’t have been hanging on every word of Rossi’s for a long time. Get use to the fact that what he says may not always be accurate. In this case, I just think that he was not thinking closely about it. One gram of nickel would become useless long before it disappeared into energy.

  • buffalo

    a good article all-in-all.it puts into perspective the dilema of lenr trying to keep its head low,and at same time high.

  • Guga

    Both Sterling Allan and Brian Westenhaus write that 1g of Nickel is consumed per 23 GWh heat. That is simply not true, not possible. That would mean that this 1g of Nickel is completely changed into heat. Don´t get me wrong, if it is e.g. 1 kg/GWh it is still great. If Nickel transmutation is really the main source of energy here (I´m not sure if even Rossi himself has a good idea what is going on). Anyway, it doesn´t help our case if such useless numbers are published.

    • buffalo

      @guga,whers the problem man.a few picograms of nickel would undergo nuclear disintergration to give a 6month run of several kilowatts.

      • guga

        The point is that the numbers are completely wrong. There is no way for us at the moment to confirm most of the information we have about LENR or the Ecat. So I believe that we should take care to be as precise as possible on facts we can check.

        Rossi did do these calculations in the interview and it can`t be true concerning Ecat nickel consumption. And that question is a fundament of the whole Ecat thing because probably nobody knows yet which reactions are really happening. I want to believe that Rossi did not express himself well and really just wanted to make a theoretical calculation that actually has nothing to do with the real nickel consumption (although that is not what he said). Hopefully he just wanted to explain that it is not really possible to measure the small loss of mass.

        Anyway, “journalists” should take a second before using huge numbers. It is not rare that it turns out they are completely wrong and investing just a few thoughts would have been enough to realize that. I know that very well, because I`m German speaking. In German “Billion” is a million millions and not a thousand millions as in English. You can`t imagine just how frequently this is mis-translated and leads to numbers that are wrong by the factor 1000, which is substantial I believe.

        I realize that many here don`t care if this number is correct. That`s ok, though personally I believe we should take care.

        • Dan

          A difference of 1 gram between the mass of the Nickel fuel and the Copper ash would yield about 23 GWh of energy. I agree that he needs to choose his words better but we all get the idea.

        • Omega Z

          guga

          I Actually think Rossi’s statement was taken out of context aside from error.

          He was just indicating how much energy could be obtained theoretically from 1 gram. E=mc2.

          By measuring after run time it could be calculated. Although accurate measurement would be very difficult considering they recharge the cat every 6 months due to Catalyst exhaustion.

          Also, the primary energy likely comes from the Hydrogen which itself would be very hard to determine as it’s in hydride form.

          There’s so many things that would effect accuracy that it may only really be calculated by theory more then fact.

          • Barry

            +1

    • artefact

      I could imagine that Rossi wants not tell things too complicated. If you replace nickel with mass (and assume the 1g being part of a bigger mass of nickel charge) then it should fit.
      What he wants to tell is, that the energy is comming from a conversion of mass to energy.

      • buffalo

        aha,the old e=mc2 thing,i see yes.

      • Bob

        No. I initially mentally made the same excuse for Rossi when he made that comment but when it was mentioned in a previous post I gave it more thought, and the criticisms made here are justified.
        Even if the 1 gram of nickel is a small part of a larger reactor mass, the point is that the 1 gram is not totally consumed and converted to energy via the E = mc^2 equation. Only a very small part of the 1 gram mass is actually consumed. Most of the mass appears at the other end of the reaction as a reaction by-product, previously claimed to be copper.
        It’s a similar principle to a normal nuclear explosion involving uranium. Most of the original mass is not converted to energy. If it did then even a small nuclear bomb would blow half the world to bits because they typically contain many kilograms of uranium. Most of the uranium mass is converted to barium and only a tiny proportion is consumed in the energy conversion process.
        So, while the figure Rossi quoted may have been correct, ( I didn’t bother checking) they are totally wrong when applied to the operation of the ecat, or any other LENR reaction.
        From earlier test results, I have a feeling there may be a similar mis-understanding of the process of converting water into steam.

        • artefact

          You are right if you look at each atom. But if you take for example 1kg of charge which totaly gets “consumed” and become copper (or what ever it is now) so that the mass now is 999g -> one gram got converted to mass.
          But it is not like you put 1g in and all gets converted. It is just maybe 0.2% of it or something

          • guga

            Let`s assume 1g nickel becomes 999mg copper. That means that 1g nickel has been consumed. But the change of mass was only 1mg, equal 25 MWh, not 25 GWh. That is my point. That if the transmutation of nickel is the fundament of the reaction, 25 GWh per gram of nickel can not happen, by far.

            • artefact

              of course. (and also not 25000 MWh)

            • Bob

              Exactly. Even at the reduced figure it is still very impressive. There was no need to mention such an irrelevant detail in the interview when it didn’t apply to the technology being used. He should have quoted the figures relevant to what happens in the device, assuming anything happens at all.

    • Adam Lepczak

      Hello,
      Rossi made a mistake – he already corrected himself
      on JofNP

      • artefact

        “Andrea Rossi
        May 9th, 2013 at 8:43 AM
        Dear Frank Acland and Sterling Allen:
        First of all, again thank you for your interesting interview.
        I have been informed right now that in the text there is a typo: it has been written that 1 g of mass is equivalent to 23 000 GWh: obviously this is a typo, since every person that knows the Einstein equation knows that 1 g of mass is equivalent to 23 000 MWh, NOT 23 000 GWh. It is an obvious typo, anyway please correct it.
        Warm Regards,
        A.R.

        • guga

          Obviously this has been corrected before I saw it. I only read 23 GWh. Anyway, that is not the point.

          But at least in this post Rossi does not write about nickel consumption, but energy equivalent of mass, which is correct of course.

          • buffalo

            @guga..it would be very revealing to do analysis on the ash under clean circumstances,this would put to bed any doubts for sure.

          • KD

            >>>>>>But at least in this post Rossi does not write about nickel consumption, but energy equivalent of mass, which is correct of course.<<<<<

            That what Rossi said many times, when asked about how much of nickel was burned in the reactor.
            He don't care about such misurements now, and don't want spent money and time for it.

            Most important for Rossi now is, to develop working device for the market.
            The other things he will live for scientists to do in the future.

            • LCD

              Without the correct theoretical model, that will be difficult especially if he keeps making it better and better cause he’ll never ship anything.

              • Bibit

                It is a little unnerving. Maybe he is pulling a tony stark; tediously perfecting his E-CAT like it’s the ARC reactor. LOL