Notice from Francesco Celani on Hydrocarbons in LENR

This notice from Francesco Celani was published today on 22passi.blogspot.com and he wants it widely distributed.

Dear Colleagues,

as anticipated, we have found significant Increase of anomalous heat When We ADDED small amounts (1-2cc) of liquid hydrocarbons to our cell, under partial vacuum conditions. Hystorically in gas system, (since 2010), apart H 2 O and D 2 O (obviously NOT hydrocarbon), we tested:

a) C 2 H 5 OH
b) C 2 H 5 OD
c) Methanol

Since January, 2013, Following The kind suggestions of the Italian Company That previously (2011-2012) made ​​systematic work (very long, expensive and tedious) on Constantan preparation, suggested to test the Acetone ( CH 3 -C = O-CH 3 ).

The Company, metallurgical, is located in the North-East of Italy. Several Researchers are interested on LENR phenomenologies and they have their own laboratory. Just to-day they give me permission to share longer available information, for the mankind progress in the field of Science and Technology. OPEN ACCESS, OPEN SOURCE approach, like the “Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project”. The results look enough “robust”. Ubaldo Mastromatteo

Also, at STMicroelecronics (near Milan-Italy), tested the Addition of Acetone, in an apparatus of our different (calorimetric). He got about measurable improvements Anomalous Heat Generation.

**** PLEASE, SHARE THE INFORMATION. ****

Tanks for Your kind attention.

  • Mark

    I hope there was discounting made for the energy of
    oxidation and other chemical reactions from hydrocarbon
    components. There is no reason why hydrocarbon ionic
    chemical systems shouldn’t undergo combustion.

    …This is one reason Potassium Carbonate is used in hydrotron
    type reactors. Other LENR experiments seem to show an increased
    reaction when small amounts of carbon are present. Russian
    reactions that were seen when running LENR in dielectric
    transformer oil which seemed to show an increase in standard
    nuclear by-products. (ionizing particles and rays). This is
    one reason to believe that LENR is real and that it is a nuclear
    process. So my feeling is that carbon may bias a LENR system
    somewhat towards standard hot-neutron nuclear reactions.

    Mark

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Lightning experiments…….where do you think Benjamin Franklin got his idea for creating USA? (:

  • http://www.coprinf.com.ar Pachu

    So recalling the explosion thread. Celani put hydrocarbons in a closed cell with hydrogen atmosphere and a mettalic wire that heat to more 200 Cº and then (of course sic) BAMM!

    Sometimes i feel ther are just joking with us….

    • Peter Roe

      Maybe you could actually read what was said some time, rather than making pointless observations.

      (1) There was no ‘bamm’, simply “measurable improvements (in) Anomalous Heat Generation”.

      (2) The compounds were in a hydrogen atmosphere in which only reduction can take place. Oxygen would be required for combustion of the ‘hydrocarbons’ (actually alcohols and ketones are technically carbohydrates).

  • georgehants

    The Register
    Climate-cooling effect ‘stronger than volcanoes’ is looking solid
    Could be time to massage those hot models again
    Posted in Science, 25th April 2013.
    As and when that work is completed, it might perhaps go some way towards explaining the generally flat global temperatures seen over the last decade and more, which are increasingly puzzling for those climate scientists who had expected them to keep going up at the rate they did between 1970 and the 1990s.
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/25/new_criegee_cooling_intermediate_probed/

    • Peter Roe

      “Could be time to massage those hot models again.”

      George – your wife is obviously far more understanding than mine.

      It seems that the science of climate change may be very far from ‘settled’, as the alarmists pretend.

      • Roger Bird

        And considering how abusive and dishonest the pro-AGW people have been, global cooling might provide an opportunity for some payback.

  • http://www.drboblog.com Dr Bob

    Norwegian scientists thinks they are the first finding evidence for Gamma Ray radiation from thunder storms and they claim to be first in the world finding this…

    Is it just me or did not the Widom Larsen theory predict this???
    Would be nice with some input from the e-catworld experts :)

    http://www.dagbladet.no/2013/04/24/nyheter/forskning/astronomi/vitenskap/innenriks/26830507/

    • http://www.drboblog.com Dr Bob

      It seems the information given out from these scientists have been a bit distorted AND / OR problems with Google Translate and maybe I jumped to wrong conclusions.

      This is the info that was INITIALLY handed out:
      http://www.agu.org/news/press/pr_archives/2013/2013-15.shtml

    • http://www.american-reporter.com Joe Shea

      Celani’s new announcement again illustrates the quickening pace of research now that Andrea Rossi’s third-party validation study becomes due for publication. As there should be in these circumstances (given human nature) there will be heightened attacks, more frequent announcements of LENR breakthroughs by competing firms, and other hyperbole and fact breaking loose to steal the limelight away from the man who gave cold fusion and its endless promise to all of us at last.

      • http://www.drboblog.com Dr Bob

        Still would like some input on if the paper/discovery can be related to widom larsen or lenr in general.

        (Otherwise I will ask admin to delete my comment)

        • MK

          You refer to this? http://de.slideshare.net/lewisglarsen/larsen-electroweak-neutron-production-and-capture-in-lightning-dischargesans-meeting-san-diego-nov-2012

          If some neutrons can be detected, I would not rule out some gammas…..

          So a lot of people do not like the Widom Larsen Theory, I think there is at least some truth in it…

          • http://www.drboblog.com Dr Bob

            Spot on, exactly what I was referring to.
            I understand that many claim that Widom Larsen is incorrect or incomplete, true or false, I would not be the person to judge.

            Im just trying to get an overall understanding about theories, models, claims etc

            According to my limited understanding Neutron Production in Thunder Storms should be quite controversial data… exspecially if it comes from outside the lenr society… (?)

    • Roger Bird

      It seems like I have heard this before. Perhaps it was something ***like*** this before. But lightning is heavy duty action, that’s for sure.

  • Stephen

    Serious comment: is ST microelectronics doing anything in LENRs? Does anybody know? They have production lines on MEMs so I think they could do curious micro/nanostructures and experiments. Well… they use silicon of course, anyway.

    Unserious one: why is he sending scary tanks in change of our attention… this is not very kind :D

    • Omega Z

      ST-microelectronics did a third party test of Celani’s LENR Cell.

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      2 team are working on that subject
      (see various stories http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php?tag=st+microelectronics )

      one is around Mastromatteo in ST microelectronic Italy
      one is in france, around Grenoble, with STNewsVentures spinoff.

      They have been seen a few conference, and Mastromatteo have made some research, including replicating/validating Celani wire-reactor with lab-quality calorimetry.

  • Roger Bird

    And what happened to all of the excitement about PDFFFF? Are leaks going to save the world at the expense of destroying Rossi? Hopefully and perhaps these two “leaks” are BS testing to see how you’all handle it, ethically speaking.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Maybe a hydrogen donor like 1,3-cyclohexadiene might also work well.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,3-Cyclohexadiene

  • Roger Bird

    I hope that you scientific geniuses realize that if you figure this out with the catalyst and all that Rossi will be ruined and that you figured it out thanks to perhaps someone being a traitor. Sort of like receiving stolen intellectual property. Please correct me if I am mistaken. And, I remind you that the ends do not justify the means.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      If hydrogen works, there are many ways to generate hydrogen in situ that chemists use instead of hydrogen gas (when working with hydrogen gas would be inconvenient). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_hydrogenation So Roger, I understand your concern but I don’t think we have to worry about giving away any secrets. I’m sure many people have already thought of using these alternatives to hydrogen gas. Even Rossi talked about getting away from hydrogen gas for the domestic E-Cat.

    • John Littlemist

      Roger, you mean we should stop speculating about the catalyst?

      And about “Rossi being ruined”, he has at least 2 years lead even if the catalyst was revealed today.

      • Roger Bird

        I was thinking that we were deciphering encoded information from Celani and Passerini and thus sort of passing on stolen intellectual property.

    • Robert Ellefson

      “Rossi will be ruined and that you figured it out thanks to perhaps someone being a traitor”

      This seems overly presumptive to me. First, that Rossi will be ruined thanks to any fault other than his own, second, that the information was stolen and not developed. Do you have any information to back up your speculation?

      • Roger Bird

        I am sitting here looking at it. First there was the Passerini coded message: PDFFFF. And then there was the hydrocarbon hint from Celani. This would be equivalent to a Soviet spy in Los Alamos in early 1945 sending a message to Moscow saying only “U235″. Moscow knows what it means. Then we decode the message and call it speculation. Isn’t that the case? I am open to instruction and suggestions.

        • len4eye

          About Passerini please wait some more, because his message has not been decoded yet. it is more complicated to that PDFFFF, maybe it is in some way the key of decoding a post he wrote in dicember that I linked last time:

          http://22passi.blogspot.it/2012/12/codex-22-passi.html

          in the comments in the recent misterious post Daniele Passerini implied that it maybe contain the key to decode the “Codex 22 passi” of dicember. maybe we dont have to take PDFFFF too literally…. and anyway still according to him we should not expect too, just a “confirmation” of something that probably must happen soon (but we, the public, don’t know yet).

          sorry for bad English

          • LCD

            But then he says this,

            Take for example the Patent System and Method for Generating Particles owned U.S. Navy : if their authors had known the above, it would have ended up with a royal flush in hand, instead of settling for a simple scale of average value!”

            and in that patent PdCl4 is used. So it does seem that easy, but who really knows.

        • Robert Ellefson

          I would call those citations possible clues, but they certainly do not constitute information as regards the topic of speculation: developed independently or stolen?

  • Sanjeev

    It would be nice if STMicroelecronics publishes their experiment in detail. How much fluid resulted in how much excess, dynamics etc.

    As others have noted its possible that hydrocarbons provide nascent hydrogen for lenr, and they give up the H ions more easily than H2 gas.

    Very important discovery.

    If this is established, almost anything that breaks down hydrogen into ions can be used in lenr, such as some metals and even spark plugs. Its not unfair to guess that Rossi’s catalyst could be a hydrocarbon as well.

  • Roger Bird

    Someone said that when we have an explanation or theory for LENR then “all hell is going to break loose.” NO. The theory will be meaningless without a demonstration, without empirical evidence, without people standing in front of an E-Cat (or Hyperion, etc) and watching it work and then buying one and taking it home. Ultimately, everything is empirical. E=mc2 didn’t have much meaning for most people until the Trinity test. It is all about experience. Theory is nice because it means that it can be done a second time. But it is all about experience.

  • GreenWin

    More language kirvitism coming from Nuenergytimes – attempting to further dismiss the pioneering work of Pons and Fleischmann by claiming the new Director of SKINR at University Missouri “…no longer believes in cold fusion.” BS.

    One must wonder why it is this operative thinks ridiculing the term CF will somehow buy the on-record CF assassins a get-out-of-jail-free card. It won’t. We know who the scoundrels are and they will get no free rides. It all confirms the growing fear of the gavel of justice. http://bit.ly/ZNQeym

    • Gerrit

      I don’t have a problem when some researchers think the anomalous heat cannot be explained with “fusion processes”.

      But the question is how do you define fusion processes. If it is only D+D->He4, or if the reaction D + larger nuclei + some reaction + some decay -> He4 is still fusion ?

      First we must understand what is happening, then we can find a fitting name for the process.

    • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

      he seems to simply support non-DD-fusion theories, like widom-larsen…
      the title is maybe done to attract skeptics.

      what is sure is that it is not classic DD, because you have to find also NiH explanation. however some hydrogen fusion seems happening, but how…
      I was a supported of widom-larsen but now I’m convinced that no theory works yet… we miss a point.
      however widom-larsen, like kim-zubarev, takahashi, brillouin, defkalion, propose interesting directions, and interesting approach, based on usual QM and unusual assumptions.

      • buffalo

        @alainco.we must remember that a percentage of ordinary H2 is D2

        • http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/ AlainCo

          Yes, but it seems some experiment were done with ultra pure light water, and that DD is contaminating some experiments with nickel…

          but maybe there is surprise. We cannot yet eliminate hypothesis.

  • Linda

    Looks like Prof. Celani may have confirmed the relationship between Rossi’s LENR eCat apparatus and the Bergius Process.

    I posted about this weeks ago…

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/04/iiste-journal-chemistry-and-materials-research-publishes-celani-research-report/

    The hydrocarbon is not combusted, it is a catalyst. This is not a chemical reaction.

    As I said in that post, mine the Bergius Process and everything written on it for clues to how the eCat and other LENR devices can be made to produce energy. Nickel and Hydrogen alone are not enough.

    Let’s Open Source LENR now – can someone please try this? The Bergius Process is old technology with a new application in LENR. It is prior art, and grounds possibly for fending off future patent trolls.

    Please promote this idea, so that we can either confirm it or eliminate it experimentally.

    Thanks,

    Linda

    • FlanObrien

      Having read the lead article I immediately thought of your posting on the possible link between the PetrolDragon venture and the Ecat venture. Seems increasingly likely your sleuthing turned up the historical truth. (Provided we eventually see something real).

      It would be ironic if the venture for which Rossi was shaken down by the Italian government turns out to have been the inspirational spark for ecats.

      • Blanco69

        Yes, that sounds like karma.

      • Linda

        Ironic, yes, and somewhat inspiring.

        I am a real supporter of Rossi and his work. I just want to make sure though that this technology is not locked away forever. :)

    • Ted-X

      Linda,
      From the chemical point of view there are the following considerations:
      1. Nickel must be different than other metals (such as cobalt, for example) with respect to interaction with hydrogen. True, Nickel is a hydrogenation catalyst in the chemical industry; example: vegetable oil conversion into margarine.
      2. Iron should be excluded from considerations as it is an end-product of nuclear reactions.
      3. Hydrocarbons generally decompose about 500 deg. C and if oxygen is present, carbon monoxide will be one of the decomposition products.
      4. Assuming that Celani’s observation was correct, the system contained initially an alcohol and metals. Thermal decomposition could lead to the formation of methane, some carbon black and carbon monoxide. Since under hydrogen pressure a thermodynamic equilibrium will be established, some carbon monoxide will be present all the time. In turn, carbon monoxide with nickel forms nickel tetracarbonyl. At this point weired things are likely to happen. Nickel tetracarbonyl has resonance structures, which move electrons between oxygen and nickel, so nickel becomes alternatively positively and negatively charged. The hybridized bonding orbitals have very strange probabilities of electron distributions (sort of elongated baloon-shaped with some probability of electrons passing through the center of the atom, that is through the nucleus. At this point, one should consider an electron capture phenomenon, enhanced due to the resonance structures of the molecule of Ni(CO)4. The overall tendency of the nickel atom in the nickel carbonyl molecule is to remain electron-attractive (partial negative charge). In simple words, CO increases electron density on Ni atoms.
      5. It is quite likely that CO penetrates the crystalline structures of nickel and may contribute to the formation of additional imperfections.
      6. The bonds between Ni and CO are very unusual, one CO may bond to two atoms of nickel. The chemistry of Ni with CO is very unusual, almost unmatched
      7. Conclusion: CO from decomposition of oxygen-containing organics might be a potential catalyst for the cold fusion effect.
      8. Precaution: Nickel cabonyl is very toxic, even at the concentration of few ppm. However, it also decomposes if released in free air, due to reaction with moisture.
      9. The Ni-carbonyl theory (please do not namy it after me), is only based on some hints and may not be correct. However, such a catalyst would not be detectable, because the boiling point of Ni(CO)4 is very low so this material would escape standard analysis.

      My feeling is that:
      1. The catalyst of Rossi might be as simple as CO and
      2. that the investigation of electron configuration of the transition metals in general (d-subshell, I think) may bring the answer.

      • Linda

        Ted-X, this is an amazing response. It seems highly plausible. Just wondering though, will this model work equally with tungsten?

        Frank, I’m pretty impressed with Ted’s technical response – I think it has a lot of merit. Would you consider taking the discussion to date on the Bergius Process Hypothesis and putting it into an article for this forum so that we get some more opinions?

        Thanks,
        Linda :)

        • Ted-X

          Linda,
          The CO forms carbonylated tungsten as well. This one is heavier than the corresponding nickel compound, though. The melting point for tungsten hexa-carbonyl is 170 deg. C, but the chemical resonance structures and enhanced electron density on the metal in the centre will also apply. Under hydrogen pressure this compound might be quite stable at higher temperatures.
          In addition, copper also forms a variety of complexes (although weak) with carbon monoxide.

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        Further speculation from this theme, under the assumption that your theory is correct: AR told us about his early E-cats that they had gaseous H2 and a catalyst. H2 and CO would be consistent with that. Later he said that he had eliminated gaseous hydrogen by some chemical arrangement. Maybe that newer E-cat type was what you now suggest: oxygen-containing organic. In the best case maybe the reaction is reversible so that after cooling down one again finds the oxygen-containing organic instead of H2 or CO in the vessel.

        • Ted-X

          Pekka,
          I do not think that a reaction would be reversible, but I know that there will be chemical equilibrium, so even if the concentration of nickel-tetracarbonyl would be very low and the nickel would get converted into something unreactive, the remaining CO would still react with the remaining nickel. And yes, acetone or something similar (eg. alcohols) would generate hydrogen at high temperatures. Nickel tetracarbonyl has a boiling point of 43 deg. C, under pressure would stay as liquid. The hybridized orbitals are still puzzling to me: quantum physics calculations show electrons passing through the nucleus (maybe my understanding of the orbitals is incorrect). So far everything indicates a direction of “spontaneous” electron capture by the nucleus – this can be enhanced by chemical means. The only organic chemicals stable under Rossi’s conditions are methane and CO. As far as I understand, the stability of nickel-tetracarbonyl under hydrogen pressure was not investigated, but intuitively, my guess is that it may be stable. Some other effect might also contribute, but I am not ready yet to speculate about the other factor. Perhaps we should have a special discussion dedicated to the Rossi-like catalyst and the relevant speculations/understandings. Could anybody explain the significance of hybridized electron orbitals passing partly through the nucleus?

          • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

            In all atoms, the electron resides “inside” the nucleus at times, because the wavefunction has a nonzero value there, and actually reaches its peak.
            One could study electron capture experimentally. Make nickel carbonyl using some beta+ active light nickel isotope and see if electron capture then occurs at enhanced rate.

            A nickel carbonyl molecule has 93 charged particles (84 electrons and 9 nuclei). The energy from Ni+H->Cu type reactions is typically of order 7 MeV. If the energy would be divided equally between the charged particles (an idealistic situation), each would receive some 70 keV or so. That might be just barely compatible with only low energy (50-300 keV) X-rays being produced from the reactor. Thus far most CF theories propose that the process occurs within solid material where many more degrees of freedom are around rather than within a single gas-phase molecule.

            • Ted-X

              Formation of carbonyl complexes does not preclude Ni-Ni bonds. The carbonyl complexes are very “complex” and their nature is probably not fully understood; some partial carbonylation is quite likely. Niclel teracarbonyl is simple but the each nickel atom in a metallic crystal may connect to 1, 2 or 3 CO molecules. It seems that there is no Coulomb barrier for electreon capture.

      • Linda

        I’m trying to encourage Frank to make this discussion of the Bergius Process Hypothesis the center-piece of an article of its own. In that discussion, a key issue would be seeing if we could link in Ted’s contribution and the Widom-Larsen theory.

        If we could manage to do that, we could possibly have the most comprehensive model yet of what is going on in a working eCat. Because the Bergius Process is so familiar and easy to reproduce, this could move LENR out of the realms of alchemy and put an eCat on every home hobbiest’s bench.

  • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

    We are glad that this is now public. I think that those that are discussing this as a disassociation effect are likely on the right track. People do not need to worry about the chemical energy potential in 1-2cc of acetone given the long runs of the experiments if the energy is released from nuclear or other effects.

    We are considering having a port for introduction of fluids on our production cells/experiments that will be rewards for kickstarter pledges and also distributed to respected institutions.

    What is also very nice from a practical point of view is that acetone is an extremely easy substance to acquire in practically every country on earth, it can be legally owned and this makes distribution and execution of experiments FAR easier and safer – and if the results are more convincing – then so much the better!

    Let’s light the New Fire together, we can do this.

    • GreenWin

      Good ideas Bob. Especially the last one.

  • GreenWin

    At first blush this seems like something an Exxon exec would love. “We get to sell oil to these free energy clowns??”

    • Peter Roe

      Perhaps the vodka industry might benefit too (outside of Russia, where sales seem to be healthy, anyway). Better quality CF reactors might require a fine malt.

  • Anders

    Norwegian scientists Østgaard and Gjesteland are presenting proofs of gamma rays from terresterial lightning. I am thinking, if electrical currents in lightning could trigger nuclear events, it might actually be possible Rossi & co are on the right track. Defkalion is even using spark plugs. Or is it possible the source of gamma rays could be anything else than nuclear? Does anybody know?

    • Roger Bird

      Perhaps secondary cosmic rays are triggering LENR. And perhaps the secondary cosmic rays are being blocked by the cell wall. Perhaps neutrinos are part of the mix. Perhaps I should stick to philosophy and psychology. (:->)

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        The usual model for explaining gammas from lighting strokes is so-called runaway electron avalanche. Beyond some threshold energy, an electron interacts less and less with air molecules if it speeds up. Some lucky electrons can therefore get accelerated to almost the full voltage difference between ground and cloud which can be several MeV. When such a relativistic electron finally hits something, it can produce gammas.

        • Roger Bird

          aahh, and this is were my beloved cosmic rays come into the picture. There is good evidence (somewhere) that cosmic rays spark lightning, that no purely Earthly event has the energy to get the cascade going. (:->) See, I am not a physics retard. (:->)

        • Alan DeAngelis

          Oh, by the way Pekka, the reply button on your April 1st reply is gone.
          So yeah, a fleischponsion (1, ½, ½, ½) would be a fermion.
          http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/03/senate-directs-e-cat-work/

        • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

          By the way I realise now that I in principle know Nikolai Ostgaard and have visited his lab at some point. I didn’t know about his involvement with new gamma ray detectors, though. It’s a small world.
          Alan DeAngelis: Thanks. If reply button does not exist for a message because of some software glitch, one can just write a new message at the main thread level.

  • Ted-X

    Carbon monoxide, if present can form carbonyl-complexes with metals (Iron, perhaps nickel), that is volatilize some metals and deposit them elsewhere (unless the lenr is in the gas phase, which should be possible with the carbonyl compounds). I do not think that this is the catalyst, though.

  • LENR4you

    Piantelli company NiCHenergy.com.
    I already posted it :

    LENR4you on January 18, 2013 at 3:42 pm
    NICHENERGY
    Ni=Nickel C=Carbon H= Hydrogen Energy!

    LENR4you

    • AB

      Nickel in Italian is nichel.

      • LENR4you

        I Know that. But it is a nice typo

  • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

    Ethanol decomposes at 1000 K in seconds. Methanol decomposition into H2 and CO is catalysed by some metals already at lower temperature. Rossi’s temperatures are so high that alcohols are unlikely to stay there for long, unless the decomposition products (free radicals) are somehow chemically recycled back to the starting materials.

    • Peter Roe

      Pekka

      In the ‘old style’ low temperature e-cats that Rossi is trying to patent, he now specifies a copper reactor cell. Perhaps the copper provides a catalytic reaction surface that cyclically decomposes an organic compound to provide H ions? To produce a continuous supply of H ions, this would require that at the operating temp., some/most of the organic compound will continually reform when away from contact with the cell wall (which might require a second catalyst in the fuel mix or as a discrete component).

      Possibly none of the new snippets being discussed apply to the ‘hot cat’, which may use a divergent process.

    • Peter Roe

      I’ve just seen buffalo’s posts below suggesting much the same thing. He notes that the ‘second catalyst’ might in fact be the nickel fuel itself.

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        Thanks, Peter. So do you think that H- ions outside the metal surface are the critical thing? If so, then the Process should really be a surface process, because I can’t see how a hydrogen atom, after entering the metal, would “remember” if it was a H-, H+ or H in its earlier life in the gas phase outside the surface.
        People have discussed H- ions also in the past, but as occurring inside the metal. That could be true as well, but then it should depend on conditions and catalysts within the metal. I don’t think there is a consensus as to what is the actual form of existence of hydrogen inside nickel, even in case of pure and bulk metal.

        Anyway, I guess my point is that while either possibility might or might not be true, ion formation in the gas phase I think cannot have an effect any deeper within the metal than the first few atomic layers. A corollary is that if it’s indeed experimentally established that H- in the gas phase are the key, then it also puts some constraints on theories for the Process itself.

  • http://www.coprinf.com.ar Pachu

    Question: The use of hydrocarbons inside the “cell”, doesn’t make the calculus of COP a lot harder ?

    How do you detect if the hydrocarbons are consumed, at wich rate and how many energy are you getting from they?

    The combustion inside the cell, account for input or output energy?

    • Andre Blum

      I guess you would either have to assume that the hydrocarbons are consumed and add them to the input energy, or somehow prove that the hydrocarbons are still there after the run.

      Since the amount is limited to 1-2 ml, as Celani writes, I think it would be okay if the run duration is long enough.

    • Roger Bird

      Seems like an awfully small amount of hydrocarbons given that if the cell were filled up with gasoline that that would not even come close to explaining all of the anomalous excess heat.

      • Peter Roe

        In any case, if oxygen is excluded there could not be any combustion.

  • Peter Mobberley

    I concur

    As I presented in my poster in Korea at ICCF 17,if propane gas ( 72
    atomic % hydrogen,27 atomic % carbon) is used as the source of hydrogen
    in a Ni-H system it promotes the LENR. I showed gamma emission significantly above background, a measurement which I did well.
    This was correlated with excess heat,a measurement which I did,not so
    well!
    I explained in the poster teaser that hydrogen gas tends to dissociate
    homolytically at a transition metal surface. H2 –> H + H
    Whereas heterolytic dissociation H2 –> H+ + H- is desirable for LENR’s
    Piantelli’s explanation of Ni-H LENR’s requires the H- anion.
    Dissociation of a hydrocarbon gas provides the H- anion.

    • buffalo

      bingo @peter mobberley.in this case the cyclic hydrogenation and dehydrogenation of acetone to isopropanol and bakwards doing same.

  • HeS

    Maybe experimenters drank some of that “hydrocarbon”? In particular, I’m talking about “heavy vodka” (C2H5OD:)

  • buffalo

    intresting..i found out that copper is a catalyst for the dehydrogenation of isopropanol into acetone and nickel is a catalyst for the reverse reaction..mm

    • LB

      And rossi wrote in the updated patent applikation that the enclosure should be a copper tube

  • andreiko

    Het heeft er alle schijn van dat er 2 reactievormen in een cel zich voordoen als warmte leverancier.

    1)Chemisch.
    2)Nieuwe configuratie van atoomstructuren ingeleid door de chemische reactie van zuurstof arme koolwaterstoffen.

    • Dickyaesta

      Translation @Andreiko It seems that there are 2 responses in a cell occur as heat supplier.1) chemically.2) new configuration of atomic structures introduced by the chemical reaction of oxygen poor hydrocarbons

  • Jonas

    A dependency on fossil fuels, then, albeit small..? :( Or does it function as a true catalyst, not getting used up in the process, but ‘eternally’ present once added?

  • Peter Roe

    Some actual data would be nice. I.e., how much additional heat is produced by each of the suggested ‘additives’. Did Celani try pure carbon? Or simple hydrocarbons such as methane?, or is the oxygen essential in which case did he try CO2? With this kind of information it might be possible to home in on the active component and guess at a mechanism.

    • buffalo

      no @peter roe.the use of short chain hydrocarbons is just an alternative to using hydrogen.hydrogen and CO2 are usualy the products after catalytic ‘cracking’of the molecule.i imagine that the product CO2 interfered with the adsorption process after formation thus his elimination of methanol and ethanol and switching to acetone,which doesnt give CO2.

      • Peter Roe

        What I’m suggesting is in effect a process of elimination of non-runners, which would obviously include compounds that will do nothing or in some cases might even reduce anomalous heat relative to the baseline. In this way a pattern might be seen that would provide a clue as to what is going on. Only testing things that might fit an assumed mechanism would be rather poor science I think.

        • buffalo

          quite the contrary @peter roe.in science,as in evrything else,the answer is usualy the simplest.in this case a hydrogen donor.

          • Peter Roe

            I disagree. In my own field (microbial genetics) answers are (were, in my case) quite often not the ‘obvious’, and multiple interlocked factors are always possible.

            Starting off ‘broad’ and focusing down is just basic science, to ensure nothing is missed. If as seems likely, efficient production of H ions is the one and only factor, this would become apparent very quickly from a simple screening set.

    • NJT

      Yes Peter, Very good question on carbon. I seem to remember, some time ago, somewhere, pure carbon as being a suggested catalyst. I wonder as you do, has that been ruled out in some of Celani’s testing?

  • buffalo

    i had thought about suggesting this years ago but i didnt because i thought it might give me an edge over these guys to do such testing myself,but alas i never did get round to actualy doing it.both methanol and ethanol crack to form H2 gas on these catalysts.formaldehyde is worth trying aswell.

  • LB

    Rossi have stated earlier that the catalyst was cheap
    and easy to find.
    The test of the used powder done in Sweden just found metals
    if I remember correctly.
    These hydrocarbons will easily evaporate using heat and not leave any trace. That’s my understanding. Maybe someone with a chemical background can comment on this?

    • LB

      I have some first hand experience on this also:
      At least the hydrocarbon a) does. (vanish without a trace)
      Last weekend when I woke up. The bottle containing the liquid was empty..
      And I have no memory of what happened to it, or anything else either to be honest..

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        +1 (:

      • http://[email protected] Blanco69

        Priceless! :-)

    • Chris the 2nd

      There would be excess carbon, but carbon gets everywhere, the Hydrogen might MIGHT get used.

  • daniel maris

    Very intriguing not least since it suggests there are lots of teams involved in research that we never hear about…sometimes it feels like a build of pressure in the scientific community that is about to burst. Other times, you wonder did you dream it all!

    • buffalo

      yes @daniel maris.it definitly appears to be leaking up the society ladders,or perhaps down the ladders to us?makes you think.notice how companys like Hunt utilities are suddenly jumping upndown with re-adjustments,re-strategizing etc. Im beginng to climb off the fence into lenr territory because of this

  • HeS

    Maybe Rossi Gas-Cat uses natural gas for heating and as a catalyst?

    • Chris the 2nd

      Hydrocarbons take many forms of varying stability and reactivity.

      Acetone is a solvent used in preparing metals… hmmm

  • lenrdawn

    That is certainly a joke.

    • Joel C.

      I recall today isn’t April 1st.

      What makes you think this is a joke?

      • Peter Roe

        When people try to put down complex issues, its often a defensive reaction they have learned during a lifetime of failing to understand anything complicated.

      • Sergio

        Was that reply to the newspost? If so… lol.

        • Peter Roe

          No it wasn’t. Maybe you could explain why you thought it might be?