An Older Person’s Field?

Thanks to everyone so far who has recorded their age in yesterday’s poll. Looking at the tally so far, one thing stands out to me, and that is that a good majority of people coming to this site are not particularly young.

Out of almost 600 poll respondents so far, one per cent are 18 or younger, and only thirteen per cent are 30 or younger.

In a world where we see many of the movers and shakers are making big marks on the world at young ages, we don’t see many spring chickens in the cold fusion research community. Piantelli, Focardi, Levi, are in their 70s and 80s — and we lost Martin Fleischmann last year. The Swedish professors who have expressed interest and support are at quite advanced ages, and Andrea Rossi at 62 (I think), while seemingly fit and well has most of his life behind him. Francesco Celani is 61.

Perhaps it is because the young generation of today were not alive or paying attention in 1989 when cold fusion made its big and short-lived splash. Perhaps they have been too well educated about cold fusion’s impossibility. Or maybe it just takes a bit of maturity to start thinking about the quantum realm and the possibilities it offers for new scientific discovery.

Whatever the reason, it’s a bit of a concern when the leading lights in a new and possibly revolutionary field are at an age where we might soon lose them. I’m sure that something like a big E-Cat announcement of 3rd party confirmation or a working E-Cat product release could change things quickly, and we will need the younger generation at some point to get on board if a LENR revolution is to take hold.

  • Nicholas Payne

    old enough to have been able to have done something with Fleishaman and Pons discovery.

  • stuey81

    i still consider myself a spring chicken, at age 32, this was the most selected option in the poll (31-40), and it was the 3rd possible youngest choice,

  • Gerrit

    From Rossi’s blog

    Andrea Rossi
    March 2nd, 2013 at 8:21 AM
    Dear Wladimir Guglinski:
    I forwarded your comment to Santa Claus for fast delivery.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    does this mean Santa Claus is real ?

    • stuey81

      Gerrit, can you prove he is not?

  • yamal

    there is a recent post from mr. rossi i can’t believe. actually i can’t believe most of them any more but this one stands out. when asked by s. karels whether the e-cat really runs either full output or off, rossi answers: correct. that is plainly impossible. it implies that during his demonstrations the reaction kicked in with a cop of 6 exactly when the boiling point was reached and stayed exactly there. it would also imply that rossi can predetermine the output to a precision of a few tenth of a percent and set the water pump to exactly the rate his e-cats can vaporize. if there is no way for him to somehow control the output through feedback from a sensor within the e-cat, such a machine would be impossible to build even if the power would not come from a nuclear reaction but only from a very reliable and sufficiently powerful, electric heater. when there is no power control and the pump just brings water in at a fixed rate, the only explanation for his temperature measurements is that the power is a little more than what is required to bring water at the pump rate to the boiling point and vaporize some of it. in that case it doesn’t really matter how much is vaporized and there is a rather broad window of matching power/temperature ratios in the area around and slightly above the boiling point, especially when you consider that any generation of steam has to lead to an increase in pressure within the reactor and consequently to a higher boiling point, which would then be the real feedback loop keeping the temperature more or less constant. unfortunately that would also mean there is no nuclear reaction.

    • rolando

      I rather wait for the third party report…but for now more beers please!

      • Al S

        Maybe depends on Mr. Rossi’s meaning of “runs.” Like old Bubba saying “depends on what your meaning of “is” is.
        For him, perhaps running up to full output is a prelude to running full output, and the other end of it is “off”!

    • captain kirk

      Andrea Rossi
      March 2nd, 2013 at 8:25 AM

      Dear Steven N. Karels:
      In any case we can modulate a 1 MW plant with quantum steps of 10 kW .

      I’m 67 and have been following The nickel hydrogen anomoly since blacklight power stated Rowan university had independently confirmed excess energy in his fuel cell ….(rowan university did additional tests over a two year period and got from 1.6 to 6x times energy output vs input) one remark I remenber was that the reaction really took off when the temperature reached 60 degrees celcius…. the exact temp that Rossi’s E-cat goes balistic

  • GreenWin

    Frank, would you check the spam folder for a couple of my posts? The last one here has some rather exciting confirmations coming from University Missouri, SKINR re neutron charged particle bursts in Pd/D2.

  • Roger Bird

    My 14 year old son and my wife and my young adult daughter just listen politely, but they aren’t really listening. They probably think that this is just another enthusiasm that I have, and it will, of course, pass. Just like aloe vera juice and paleo, which haven’t passed.

  • Roger Bird

    Older people are old enough to understand that science is not about worshiping the community of scientists but rather science is a method of knowing externals. Older people also have longer memories and can remember when discoveries have been suppressed (like Alfred Wegener). Also, older people are more likely to be retired, have to to investigate, and don’t have to worry about losing their jobs is they think outside the box.

  • NJT

    For those under 18 it is understandable where there thoughts and desires lie. Those seriously in college to learn and prosper should begin to focus on all the new scientific challenges before them. Those out of college must now make a living on what they have learned. The “Steve Jobs” of that group (the real thinkers and doer’s) will then prevail – hopefully!

  • Andre Blum

    Something else stands out much more to me: 777 voters in two days. That is more than I expected.

  • http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com Peter Gluck

    I am 75+ and have joined CF March 24, 1989.
    Just to note that I have written this:
    http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2013/02/advises-for-young-lenr-workers-some.html
    for young LENR workers of all ages and this has to be continued- based on feedback.
    Best wishes,
    Peter

    • georgehants

      Peter, your comments are always “interesting” on Vortex, you should post here more often for discussion.
      Best.

    • http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com Peter Gluck

      Thanks, George, I will.
      Peter

    • http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com Peter Gluck

      as promised-
      have sent a second message-lesson to the young
      researchers working in LENR or planning to do this:
      http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2013/03/advises-for-young-lenr-workers-some.html

      I try to tell them about some tools they can use in solving the LENR problems
      beyond those strictly professional.
      My first message has not received any feedback from really young scientists
      and engineers. Perhaps this one…

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Rossi: “In future it can go, at present we stay well focused on what we can do: thermal and eventually electric power.” Maybe he is having trouble with producing electric power?

    • yamal

      if he can make thermal energy he can make electricity. it’s as simple as that and rossi should concentrate on the former rather than trying to build entire electrical power plants. there are lots of other companies knowing a lot better how to do that.

    • yamal

      i’m astonished about the discussion on jonp about jets. have they never heard about nepa?

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        Ǹepa? Nuclear electric propulsion aircraft?

        • yamal

          actually it stood for nuclear energy for the propulsion of aircraft. the whole idea was completely ludicrous of course – but they got pretty far.

          • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

            Thanks. Yes, I think the heavy shielding and safety issues in general were the showstopper. Otherwise it would have worked: if one has a hot enough heat source with high enough power density, one can build a jet engine.

  • yamal

    bashing younger generations for not being interested in whatever the current generation thinks is important and concluding that society and civilization itself is in danger is as old as mankind (and has always been wrong). when it comes to cold fusion we should keep in mind that the internet generation grows up exposed to a flood of crazy ideas which ‘we’ (i’m 35) only heard of by chance when we were young. being either skeptical or uninterested in stuff that isn’t on main stream tv news is more of a necessary defense mechanism than bluntness.

  • Wes

    We have developed a civilization which has perfected “distractions,” including Hi-res TV, cool cell toys, video games, etc. We even have designer vacuum cleaners. Basic research, on the other hand, is “dirty,” and requires long periods of “uncool” thinking and (God forbid) sacrifice.

    • GreenWin

      Well put Wes +1. Basic research requires focus and creative thinking in experimental design. Thereafter, it is largely a process of recording data and results. Data recording is increasingly automated. Experimental design however is less adaptable to automation.

  • GreenWin

    “Age is an issue of mind over matter. If you don’t mind, it doesn’t matter.” Mark Twain

    Let’s not over-interpret these data. This is a small sample of the people following one single implementation of LENR. As Pekka notes, the largest age group is 31-40. Age is far less an impediment to this technology than the M/I complex that has commandeered research, and press (knowledge monopolies.)

    However, philosophically, this battle is already won. The internet is a window to new, multidimensional thought. Those who choose to learn, quickly find “verboten” areas the orthodoxy wants hidden. Those who are curious delve into these areas simply because anything off limits – is often fascinating.

    Dan Pink, author of “A Whole New Mind” argues that right brainers (creative v logic) will rule the future. Because there is a premium on creative thinking that cannot be easily cloned/copied. That is, original designers, inventors, artists, entrepreneurs, are more valuable in the global economy than left brainers. One example is, despite reliance on LED,CFL,electric lighting, candles are a $3 billion dollar/year industry in the west. This represents an expanding demand for aesthetic and spiritual lifestyle.

    It appears to me that many young people elect to explore affairs of the heart, religious, and spiritual development before settling into the material world. It was that way in the 1960s (fuzzy memory) I recall. There are enthusiastic, young LENR leaders coming along, Nicolas Chauvin http://www.lenr-cars.com/team.php is one.

    Good ideas whose time is right cannot be suppressed. They have already perturbed the consciousness, and they resonate beyond space and time. LENR is one such idea.

    “Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young.” Henry Ford

  • Shane D.

    My 29 and 27 year old boys think it funny their 58 Y/O dad follows LENR. My 20 Y/O son is interested in developments, but counts on me to provide updates.

    I have no answer why 2 of my 3 don’t care about this potentially world changing science. Neither do I have any theory why the younger, in general, have no curiosity about something that could alleviate many of the enviromental and energy concerns of their future, and their kids future.

    Any amateur psychologists amongst us?

    Maybe when something REALLY breaks, things will change and the bright young talent will take an interest. Hopefully that happens soon… considering the age demographics of the active LENR researchers.

    • zvibenyosef

      That is quite interesting, I am getting much the same response from my own son and daughter. I suggested that LENR may be quite a profitable new business in a few years, and he just gave me a look as if to say, the old man has just lost it.

    • Omega Z

      Shane

      They are Young, Immortal & just having fun.

      When they get a little Older, that 2nd part will evaporate from their reality.

      That Said- Once lENR becomes reality, The Younger Gen will start figuring out how to make money off of this technology & become involved.

      On a Sad Note- You Probably don’t have a Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or Steve Wozniak among your offspring.

      These 3 were among the approximate 1% of the kids that got interested in Computers when they first came out as kits.

      Steve Jobs & Steve Wozniak are 2 of the Notable persons who actually worked for/with Nolan Bushnell. The Creator of Pong & the Atari Game System. The 1st Apple Computer was based on the same 8 bit 6502 Microchip.

      • NJT

        Right on Omega Z, GreenWin and others – it will be interesting for us old farts to watch this process unfold. Too bad that MOST of the younger generation cannot seem to grasp what is happing early on here. Where is the next Steve Jobs going to come from?

        • stuey81

          as i said before, im 32, i will talk to anyone who will listen about LENR, out of all my workmates at work (over 100 people), two of them, showed very small interest in LENR, one was a electrician, the other an engineer. there are people at my work who cant grasp the concept of over unity, either they dont grasp it, or they dont care. if i pulled out a perpetual motion machine they probably wouldnt care that much!

  • Sophie P

    I am 23 at the end of this month. 🙂 I’m also interested in nuclear disarmament and find a similar thing in that, with me being the youngest in my local campaign group by quite a bit.

  • Curbina

    I was 15 when Pons and Fleischmann announced their discovery (one day after my birthday) and I was really interested since. I think some people grasp the importance of it, and others just don’t.

  • Bob

    Unfortunately, the younger age group (early 20’s and down) are too wrapped up in today’s culture to worry about such “trivial” stuff as energy, sustainability, etc. They are too engrossed about what Justin Beiber wears, who had a wardrobe malfunction, what is the latest style in tennis shoes, what color is Katy Perry’s hair today …… Just look at the head lines –“Lady GaGa wears a meat dress”, “Apple to release must have new phone”.

    Of course, they are interested in some “socially cool” stuff, but for the most part, pretty shallow of importance.

    I do not mean to throw 100% of our youth into this category, but I am convinced that a large percentage are. So they are not going to read news on scientific based discoveries (unless Apple is in the title). According to some articles, our youth’s education in science is falling to an all time low. I believe mostly due to culture corruption.

    The “middle age” group, (mid 20’s to 40’s) are often busy with work, family or engrossed in sports. But due to the fact that they now have a track record of being responsible for bills, cost of living, etc. you probably would expect a larger percentage interested in new energy technology. It will have an impact on thier cost of living.

    Us old timers, due to our long years, we have gained wisdom and insight to truly important issues and desire to comb the universe for life’s deepest questions!

    OR have nothing better to do than surf the internet! 🙂

    What I find interesting is that NO female posters come to mind! (Please forgive me if I have missed some, I will attribute it to my failing, old timer’s memory) Perhaps a survey on male / female would be interesting? While the science world has had some extremely brilliant female participants, they are a minority for some reason. Is it culture/social upbringing? Is it some other cause?

    Like the Ecat… will we ever really know? 🙂

    • Peter_Roe

      You make several interesting points to explain the seemingly unbalanced age distribution among contributors to this blog. I suspect your comment about older people often having more leisure time to play on the internet may be a strong factor.

      However your observations about the youngest group of adults (18-30) do to some extent seem to be borne out in my experience. I have my own kids in that age bracket, and sometimes meet their friends and also my friends’ offspring of similar age. In general they don’t seem to be too locked into ‘popular culture’ (with the occasional exception), but they do all seem to exhibit what seems to me to be an almost complete lack of curiosity.

      Even when they have scientific knowledge (one of my daughters is a science teacher for example) they just don’t seem to be interested in new discoveries, events such as the landing of ‘Curiosity’ or even in ‘weird’ things – what some refer to as anomalies. I can’t explain it, but it does seem to be the case – something to do with modern educational methods I suppose. Fortunately there are exceptions like many of the MFMP team, but in general this doesn’t seem to bode well for future research.

      • Peter_Roe

        I forgot to add to the exceptions – and of course those in that age group who follow this blog!

    • Sophie P

      23 year old female reader here, who I am glad to say is not at all interested in celebrity gossip and would much rather read about LENR, the Mars rover or the negotiations against nuclear proliferation than whether Justin Bieber has managed to get his end away! 🙂

      • NJT

        Hi Sophie,

        Welcome and please keep that attitude, you may inherit the earth!

    • Hampus

      I Am 24 years old and all my friends just laugh at me when I start to talk about changing to world. They don’t understand that the world Have to change/that it will change. They see the world as static and can’t see that anything can change. Which is ofc strange because its my generation that have been born within the Internet revolution.

      I think older people understand that the world will change, you can’t stop that. It’s only our job to make it change in a good way.

      • Omega Z

        Hampus

        Your about the age I thought you were.
        Note it took a bit for me to determine this.
        You come across Mature for your age in most of your posts.

        I think there’s a kind of game here at ECW among the regulars. Consciously or unconsciously we try to determine the other posters age.

        GreenWin & Peter Roe are close to my age I believe. Pekka I thought was maybe 5 years older then he is.

        Then there is Georgehants:-) Haa… What can I say
        Sometimes like a spoiled kid.
        Sometimes I think he hung around with Moses.
        Sometimes I think he’s been hitting the Champagne a little early.
        Then I decided he’s just like my Girlfriends Boston “Terror”.
        Sinks his teeth into something & just wont let go.

        Just Kidding George.
        I’ve read so many of your posts, It feels like I know you like my neighbor. That’s a good thing. I get along with my neighbor even if we don’t agree about everything.
        We Agree on the Important things.

        • georgehants

          Omega Z, Ha, I will take all that as a compliment.
          Anything is better than following established incorrect religious Dogma.

          • Omega Z

            Agreed George

            Like I kinda stated above. We agree on the Important things. Evidence & Facts.

            Everything else just becomes water under the Bridge.

            By the way- I’m 57. I’m thinking your a little older then me. OR Am I Just Wrong.

            Before you answer, I have to warn you.
            I’m not always Right, But I’m Never Wrong-Ha 🙂

            • NJT

              George is one of the GOOD GUYS! I first met him on that other site before the skeptics took that over. As a retired research chemist and computer consultant, I, now just 74, find all the folks here most interesting, intelligent and of course we all know GEORGE!

              • georgehants

                OmegaZ and NJT, thank you both, I will explain a little —
                I luckily have never had a days formal science training since my leaving secondary school at age 15 after failing my 11+ exam. (an old English selector)
                I feel very privileged that as with many other areas, I did not have to undergo the scientific indoctrination that is designed apparently to kill every young students desire to search for the Truth in Science.
                If anybody puts forward any fair Evidence to show me wrong on any subject then that is the way it should be.
                If not, I am always amazed at the lack of ability in most people on this and other pages to say, yes that is clearly correct, we will change our thinking to suit.
                Peace and Truth to all.

      • B

        I love laughing… all the time… being weird and making fun with my friends.
        I hope they dont meaning anything bad and rather that they are laughing with you…
        Actually, your story gave me an idea. If you can figure out who I am who wrote this, contact me… I have something for you!

    • stuey81

      what about KIM, she used to post here all the time?

    • elasticbucket

      When professorial staff seemingly, in the main, dismiss unity+ technology and absolutely believe contradiction to thermodynamics2 is akin to heresy, why would subordinate educationalists stick their necks out for a Pons/Fleishman gold watch by extolling the virtues of LENR? Oh, the pain – 68 YO Post Grad student, now world resident 🙂

  • barty

    I’m 24 🙂

  • artefact

    on JONP:

    Koen Vandewalle
    February 27th, 2013 at 5:36 PM
    Dear Andrea,
    maybe the Hot-Cat is still too concentrated for the use in non-phasechanging heat exchange.That happens, with all new stuff.
    Otherwise -but expensive- could be valve operated pulsating flow per hot-cat. The hole in the center could be the ultimate place to put a valve on. The latest commercial Renault-TCE engine uses the pressure pulse at exhaust valve opening time to increase efficiency on the turbo. Apparently, turbines do like shockwaves. After decades of improvements on Internal Combustion engines, that seems to be a novelty.
    Just an Idea, based on your latest answers.
    Please, feel free to remove if inconvenient.
    Kind Regards,
    Koen

    Greg Leonard
    March 1st, 2013 at 7:04 AM
    Dear Koen Vandewalle and AR
    It is sounding a bit like a ram-jet, except there would be no combustion.
    The engine would be slightly conical in shape, with the air entering at the sharp end. The air would expand and increase in both pressure and speed from the hot-cat heating. At the blunt end there would thrust from the increased pressure at exit (on a larger area) plus some displacement thrust from the faster moving exhaust mass. If the heating of the air needed more time to absorb the hot-cat heat, then something more like a pulse jet would perhaps do the job.
    Greg Leonard

    Andrea Rossi
    March 1st, 2013 at 8:37 AM
    Dear Greg Leonard:
    I will think about this. It is, basically, a jet.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Chris the 2nd

      What is the context of this conversation please?

      • artefact

        Hi, I have all posts about that topic in my post.
        But I think Koen Vandewalle is refering to the efficiency Rossi reaches with the carnot cycle of 30-35% and he makes a sugesstion to have a better efficiency.

        • Omega Z

          artefact

          Thanks for adding this. Sounds Logical as I couldn’t find anything else to reference it to.

  • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

    Our video views from our site point to nearly 75% being over 45. We put it down to who owns the internet connection and that the story is nearly a quarter of a century old.

    We hope to bring this to a younger audience also – we have made a character called Delta Pyro… Commander of the New Fire. Expect a blog on him soon and why.

    • clovis

      hi, bob,
      great idea, mine actually, I have for some time been using Dr. Rossi as the hero, or hero character, in the revolution of the new fire,
      after all he is the father of the new fire, and should be the main character, in this on going tale, of the man that saved and changed the world.
      And the new fire revolution.

      • ___

        Saving The World is one thing.
        Claiming to have a device that could potentially do so then sell it to a utility company is two completely different things.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvP19SLjhW8

        • clovis

          the lenr factor, is something, that no company can hold on to, with the exception to Dr, rossi’s company.
          it too big, once the ball gets rolling. free energy for all is the end of the story. somewhere in the further.

          • stuey81

            clovis, contradict yourself much? if no company can hold onto the lenr factor, what makes you think rossi`s company can? rossi (i refuse to refer to him like you do as a doctor) has never succesfully ran a company before? as per usuall clovis, lots of hot air from you and nothing to back it up with, ive been asking you for months now to provide some, heck any proof to the claims you make about rossi, in particular the comment you made about rossi having a working device in a power station for view by the public by december 2012 – what happened to that clovis? huh? well?

      • Omega Z

        Actually Clovis

        I think father of the new fire— I don’t know. Seems a little strong.

        I Agree he has been very Important & Instrumental in Re-opening the door, But he is just building on others work before him. We may need to leave it to history to judge him & speak up only if History should try to slight his contribution to it.

        Even Before Pons & Fleischmann, there were others who found AHE. All should receive credit of some form.

        • stuey81

          +1 omega z, well said, are we listening clovis?

    • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

      The character is a fusion between the Celani, Rossi and Defkalion reactors in a kind of overall spark plug form. You’ll see, he has got power sockets on the back of his hands and a Mizuno glow in his belly. His arms and legs are made of pipes…

      You will soon have the pleasure of suggesting materials for him.

      This design started within days of ICCF17

      • clovis

        I gracefully except, I have some great ideas, for this superhero,
        and it will be a great learning tool, but i think Dr. rossi should be a character. i will ask him, how he would like to be portrayed, how, his character, would look, he may not want to be involved, but after all the new fire was his idea,
        so we will see.

        • stuey81

          when are you going to contribute to this saga clovis, shhhhhesh, i think you are rossi, the way you blow smoke up…….

          • clovis

            thanks, who ever you are, for such a great compliment, but i pale in Comparison ,too this great man,
            Dr. Rossi will go down in history as the man that saved us all.

  • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

    Anyway the largest age group is 31-40. People under 30 are underrepresented (and those under 18 very much so), but above that the distribution looks quite uniform.