Swedish Hydrogen-Nickel Powder Experiments Produce Null Results

Here’s a link to a report about recent nickel-hydrogen experiment performed by a Swedish team of researchers. The funding for the experiments was funded by The Swedish Defence Materiel Administration with the goal of trying to reproduce reports of excess power claimed by Rossi and Focardi.

http://www.lenrnews.eu/swedish-defence/ (PDF of the report is in the article)

In the report they say that to maximize the surface area of the nickel they used powders varying in size “between a micro- and nanometres.” They say they used temperatures between room temperature and 600 degrees C, and hydrogen pressure of between and few, and 200 bars.

They mention that they started with a large reactor, but switched to a smaller but a more high-pressure tolerant reactor since according to Andrea Rossi, they may be able to get a reaction with a pressure of around 200 bars, even without any catalyzer.

The group carried out a series of experiments but throughout the testing “no gamma radiation was ever detected, more than background levels, from any of the tests”, and “no significantly powerful reactions were found during the experiments.”

The document includes pictures of the experimental setup and some, but not all data, from all experiments. They say that more data will be provided on request.

The researchers are listed as Abraham Langlet, Curt Edstrom and Jan Erik Nowacki

  • http://aetherwavetheory.blogspot.com/ Zephir
  • Daniel

    Well, I actually phoned Langlet. It’s called “checking your sources and not just talking about it”. The report is legit, the experiments were done in 2011 and 2012, the report is not a complete coverage of those though. The purpose of it was to see if it was easy to recreate Rossis results – and no, it wasn’t. Tomorrow I’ll get in touch with Edstrom who performed the actual experiments to discuss the size of particles used.

  • GreenWin

    And after marginal analysis, the entire enterprise looks to be an anemic disinfo doc. There are enough holes in the thing to drive at least two parallel lorries through! Entertaining though.

    • Stefan

      Indeed, it sounds so bogus “While searching for information over the Internet we…”; it’s difficult to believe that a serious researcher could write this…

  • GreenWin

    “The central container is about 50 cm3 in size and it contains 0.11 gram hydrogen and 50 grams nickel. The enthalpy from the chemical formation of nickel and hydrogen to nickel hydride is 4850 joule/mol [6]. If it had been a chemical process, a maximum of 0.15 watt-hour of energy could have been produced from nickel and 0.11 gram hydrogen, the whole hydrogen content of the container.

    On the other hand, 0.11 gram hydrogen and 6 grams of nickel (assuming that we use one proton for each nickel atom) are about sufficient to produce 24 MWh through nuclear processes assuming that 8 MeV per reaction can be liberated as free energy. For
    comparison, 3 liters of oil or 0.6 kg of hydrogen would give 25 kWh through chemical burning. Any chemical process for producing 25 kWh from any fuel in a 50 cm3 container can be ruled out. The only alternative explanation is that there is some kind of a nuclear process that gives rise to the measured energy production. “

    Sven Kullander, Chairman Swedish Academy of Sciences Energy Committee, and Professor Emeritus High Energy Physics, University Uppsala; Hanno Essen Assoc. Prof. Theoretical Physics, University of Stockholm (Sweden) and former chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society.

    The Swedish Defense agency needs to put nose to grindstone – like other scientists have, if they want to see results.

    • GreenWin

      Two items jump out of this report: the Ni test powders were >=100nm – a number which their consultant Brian Ahern (Vibronics Inc. USAF) has noted will not produce the reaction. Second, the paper concludes with interest in pursuing Ikegami’s Chemonuclear fusion theory, and suggests Dr. Roland Pettersson, University Uppsala as the key expert in the field.

      Yep, the same Dr. Roland Pettersson that was running some of the Rossi October e-cat demos at Bologna. Pattern? Small world.

      • Peter Roe

        The particle size issue seems critically important. Either these researchers have not read everything available before designing their experiments, or for some reason they actually designed them in a way that was intended to produce a null result (as I understand was the case when certain labs set out to ‘replicate’ P&F). Well observed, GreenWin.

        • GreenWin

          Looks like disinfo, plain and simple. Which in reverse psych indicates the Swedes are at the helm of at least one alt energy ship. Also none of the three “authors” is found in an internet search outside Jan Erik Nowacki, licensed technician in the automated people mover business.

          A particularly anemic entry from the mis-directors IMO. But amusing. Peter, you and I could conjure better over Earle Gray and fresh scones.

          • AlainCo

            I don’t think of a disinformation.
            however they have interest in the cited lithium mild-fusion , and yes, NiH LENR is hard to trigger. Defkalion took 5 month to find it.

          • Peter Roe

            Either these people are not very competent, or the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration is trying to discredit (in a very half hearted way) the nickel-hydrogen systems of Rossi, DGT et al. The problem with the latter idea is that the amount of ‘bang for buck’ would be pathetic. No-one is interested in failures and in any case a shedload of such reports would be negated in a moment when the next positive results arrive.

            On balance, I think that simple incompetence probably has it. As you say, you or I, or half a dozen others who post here could come up with more information-based approaches worth trying. Personally, rather than tea and scones, I tend to think more imaginatively after a few beers and a very large packet of scratchings (oven-cooked bits of pig skin c/w epidermal fat, to those unfamiliar with the giddying heights of British ‘snack cuisine’).

            • GreenWin

              I am corrected. Several pints and a large RayGray packet of “scratchings” it is. RayGray describes this snack: “Known in the USA as ‘Cracklings’ or ‘Pork Rinds’, Canadians call them
              ‘Scrunchions’ and often use them as a flavouring over other foods such
              as salt fish and potatoes.” AND they are a favorite of lovely Ms. Cameron Diaz, a favorite snack of mine (not in a biblical sense.)

              • Peter Roe

                You are a veritable mine of information! I had thought this particular delicacy was a purely British thing, but evidently not.

        • GreenWin

          Correction, Abraham Langlet, appears to be associated with FMV:KCVapen. Funny, it was chemist Abraham Langlet that is credited with co-discovering helium in 1895 at Uppsala, SE.

  • http://www.facebook.com/roger.bird.710 Roger Bird

    It is sort of discouraging.

    • GreenWin

      Yes, but only in the state of disinfo.

  • Daniel Maris

    Will Frank put this across the bannerhead:

    “The visits will need the permission of the owner of the plant. When visits will
    be allowable, we will check all the requests.”

    I think not.

    It’s time for Rossi to put up or shut up.

    • GreenWin

      Aw, come on Danny, it’s a free country.

  • Jonas

    I think it’s quite easy, really. The secret catalyst must be location – the mediterranean area, to be more precise! Something in the air, perhaps..? =P

    No, I’m not a troll, I would love for it to work, but why is it that all these people claim to have something, but it is just so damn hard to replicate? Even when all the details are out there (like the Celani experiments, or the Pirelli high school)? Or have someone somewhere actually irrefutably proven this effect, that I haven’t heard of?

  • Aldo

    It doesnt work because fusing nucleus at low energy is not possible.
    Think that: If fusion was so easy, the Univers would have never exist.
    The Sun can continue to shine, and (hot) fusion teams around the world still working seriously.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      This is not true. CF needs solid metal and gaseous hydrogen at rather high pressure. This combination is rare in the universe. Only giant planets are massive enough to hold a hydrogen atmosphere, but those planets do not have a solid surface which would come into contact with the gaseous hydrogen. Stars have nothing in solid state and other bodies (rocky planets, moons, asteroids, comets, dust) have insufficient gravity for grabbing hydrogen.

  • fritz194

    … no gamma radiation detected ???

    The funny thing about lenr is that there are pretty no gammas emmitted.

    Thats the old argument of traditional nuclear scientists that it can´t work without gammas but it actually does…

    So if they are looking for gammas – they dont follow Focardi/Rossi.

    interesting

    • GreenWin

      Experiments by the LENR team at Navy’s SPAWAR facility proved the appearance of high energy particles in CR39 detectors – in D-Pd cells. The work is published and was presented at ACS 2009. Ni+H does not appear to produce the same radiation in current experiments. Oddly the Widom Larsen patent describes a process to shield high energy gamma using some form of LENR (or whatever WL calls their CF theory.)

  • georgehants

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    The story goes that while developing a new way to generate graphene —
    the same material used in carbon nanotubes — Kaner’s team made
    a serendipitous discovery: the new carbon-based material acted as a
    supercapacitor
    http://singularityhub.com/2013/01/29/the-super-supercapacitor/

  • buffalo

    well it has been rumoured that potassium carbonate might be the trigger for reaction but nobody can be certain. electrolysis of potassium carbonate solution with nickel cathodes did give anomalous heat according to handful researchers in the past.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1020618379 Morgan Burnham

      it’s aluminum added to a distilled water / potassium hydroxide solution. I believe it’s something like 2 Al(0)+ 6 H2O –(KOH)–> 2 Al(+3) + 6 OH(-) + 3 H2 so there are negatively charged hydrogen ions that are basically the key to starting the reaction.

  • Stanislas Bauer

    Jean Paul Biberian also failed to replicate. If Rossi’s reactor works it’s due to a catalyser, not mentionned in the patent. Rossi gaves the form of the pot, the vegetables, but not the spices…. .

  • Dave Lawton

    Maybe they should have a play with the Lithium batteries used in the Boeing

    Dream liner as they keep overheating. Just because they had a Null
    result don`t mean a thing if it ain’t got that swing.I remember in 1989
    I popped into the H.H. Wills Physics lab in Bristol were I used to work
    ,there was a replication of Fleischman and Pons Cold Fusion,they also
    had a null result.When I questioned the replicator I found they were not
    conducting a exact replication as they did not happen to have all the
    right materials in the Lab stores.If you are going to replicate you have
    to do it right.When I have finished refitting my workshop I may have a
    go.

    • Peter Roe

      Very early on, Rossi moved from an external hydrogen gas supply to light metal hydrides as a storage mechanism for the hydrogen. It’s possible that even the ‘plumbing fittings’ prototype had a hydride donor as well as an externally-fed hydrogen atmosphere in the reactor.

      I have often wondered whether at some point he might have noticed a sudden increase in output when experimenting with certain hydrides such as lithium or potassium hydride. This would be just the sort of serendipity that might have allowed him to progress far more rapidly than anyone else, and may be the ‘secret catalyst’ (or a part of it) that no-one else seems to have discovered so far.

  • _Frank_

    That are discouraging bad news for Defkalion followers as well, aren’t they?

    • yamal

      i doubt it. simply bringing nickel and hydrogen together and heating it up can’t be enough. if it works at all, there must be something more to it. mfmp is following the simple approach and they’re probably seeing nothing you couldn’t explain without lenr, let alone harvesting kilowatts of energy. defkalion hinted at all sorts of additional magic going on in their reactors so nobody believing any of that would be discouraged because the easy approach didn’t work.

  • Gerrit

    I am happy with this report. Not because it is a null result, but because it indicates that people are more and more aware about LENR and no longer hesitant to try for themselves. If the swedish defence is doing this, who else might be running an investigation ?

  • http://twitter.com/Snorvey David

    I daresay the Swedish researchers did not utilise Rossi’s super dooper secret catalyst, Bullshitium (Element symbol – BS)….

  • Daniel Maris

    Oh dear…but then I never trust the objectivity of scientists. I like to know the back story. Do they have an axe to grind? Are tehy anti the NyTeknik people?

    And what’s that word “significantly” doing there. Did they find some powerful reactions but they weren’t “significant”? Or can they just not write English.

    Of course, this raises the pressure on Rossi who has done nothing to reassure anyone about what he’s up to, even NOT extending an invitation to Frank here to view the process. All he has to do is set up a webcam to show the 24/7 operation of an E Cat heating a room. That’s enough. Why doesn’t he do it, people?

    • Sergio

      @”Why doesn’t he do it, people?”

      I recently came to realize that at this point it is actually a better thing for Rossi that masses think that he has nothing. Why? Because there’ll be less people attempting to reproduce his method. You can never underestimate crowd brute force. As such, I am of the opinion that Rossi is actually not doing a damn thing to speed up any part of the publication process. He has a contract and he doesn’t need anything else. His main concern is to hit the market with a product before his competition does, but that concern as it seems is not even that important. Rossi appears to be confident that he can keep improving the product in the lab for a little longer without the risk of someone overtaking him. The first time a product hits the market, everyone will know what the secret “catalyst” is. So in that sense, he has to be really careful to produce a product that will not be easily outdone.

      • Dixie

        Rossi is just trying to scare a big cheque out of the oil industry, just like steorn did

        • Peter Roe

          I doubt that the oil industry or anyone else will throw big cheques around unless they know what they are getting for their money.

          • GreenWin

            Peter, your recent reference to the petulant child stomping his foot, demanding to open the cookie jar, is quite apt here.

            • Peter Roe

              GW – I am always unsure of the motives of some of the, er, ‘sceptical’ occasional visitors we see, but I think that at least some of them are probably rather more – shall we say – professionally detached that that. Not so much foot stomping as randomly sneaking into the pool so that they can pi$$ in it.

      • Daniel Maris

        Fine. But an even better way not to get people trying to reproduce your technology is not to talk about it at all. Certainly not to set up a website like JNP. Certainly not to do independent testing that you are then going to publish.

        In other words,what you say may make sense but what Rossi is DOING makes no sense from that perspective.

        • yamal

          agreed. however what would a webcam prove? you’d see something with wires attached to it. you’d be told what it all means and you’d have to believe what you’re being told (same as now only without staring day in day out at a blurry, mostly static image of… something)

          • Daniel Maris

            It proves nothing. But it would be transparent. It would show various people coming to tend the machine from time to time. It would show dials moving as you expect. Yes, that could all be faked but because it takes a lot of time and care to fake, the very fact it is there will tend to disprove fakery. Especially if you add one, two, three, four, five, six etc webcams. Webcams and internet connection cost virtually nothing in terms of this sort of development.

            I suggest people ask Rossi why he doesn’t put a webcam in place. I think you’ll find either your question gets cut or his answer will be v. revealing.

            • Pekka Janhunen

              In my opinion, if one considers all tests that Rossi has thus far done, it would be awfully difficult to have faked them all, a superhuman effort in terms of number and level of technologies and actors involved and the short time that elapsed between them (plus that I am not sure if faking would have been possible in all cases even in principle). Scientists who can move everywhere in the room and use all of their senses and their own equipment to measure things are more difficult to fool than a webcam, even a group of webcams. The stage (restricted viewing angle of the audience) plays an important role in most of stage magic.

              • Daniel Maris

                I am not arguing he has faked them. If he faked them he would have had to fool a couple of Professors of Physics as well (over a number of years) which seems unlikely. I have no idea what’s going on but I am saying Rossi could if he wished do much more to add to his credibility.

                • Pekka Janhunen

                  Yes and yes. But what is the problem? Rossi probed the world of credibility by inviting some people to tests in 2011. Then he got wary of it because the reception wasn’t very positive, overall. He stopped public tests and went on to work (result was HotCat) and built a licensee network. Now he’s planning a comeback to publicity, this time armed with a third party professor team. In this scale, credibility is about opinion leaders: he needs people or organisations with high standing to confirm his claims. He starts to have a capability of producing industrial plants in larger scale, and for selling them, public credibility is needed. But just-in-time is enough, no need to have credibility earlier. Despite, there are many flavours of credibility, depending on the group of people. The most public one is only one flavour.

        • Sergio

          Not necessarily. There are 2 good reasons why Rossi might still want to run a site like JNP and engage with the audience.
          The first is that, should things go south and someone else beats him to the market, he must have a fan base which is going to support him if he needs to establish a campaign to protect the invention. Similar thing was done by a few other companies after Rossi went public in 2011 – most notably NASA – as they clearly all want to have a footprint in this revolution – if it indeed turns out to be a revolution.
          The second reason is that he may simply enjoy the attention and want to communicate with the fans. And this is probably true regardless, given what we’ve seen.

          • Daniel Maris

            The third reason is that I will think of any reason I can rather than face the truth.

            This is absolutely crunch time. He’s had a couple of years now to get to market with a basic version. He claims already to have sold a machine…well actually originally he claimed to have sold 13.

            But we have never seen a working machine in situ with a customer.

            He can’t keep spinning out the independent testing story.

            We need to see the real deal now. Or we can simply forget Rossi and this site can fade to grey.

            • GreenWin

              Utter BS Dan. We keep telling you, you don’t choose to listen. His own money, his own formula, his own time, means… Rossi owes you nothing. It’s only “crunch” time in your mind.

              • Daniel Maris

                Where did I say Rossi owes me anything? These have not been my promises and predictions – they have been his. So it’s for him to either bring them to fruition or not. And let’s not forget he is NOT saying he has products in development only. He is saying he sold a working unit a long time ago and that it works. We’re a long way down the road and we should have reached Credibility by now.

      • John De Herrera

        “…first time a product hits the market, everyone will know the secret “catalyst”
        Not IF Rossi only sells 1MW units, locked in a metal shipping container and serviced by his group. jdh

        • Peter Roe

          That’s exactly right, and of course it will also apply to hopefully forthcoming hot cat boilers. This is the ‘trade secret’ route to IP protection (as opposed to patent disclosure) and probably signifies yet another nail in the coffin of the domestic e-cat, which could not be ‘guarded’ in this way..

          • PFPorlock

            I will be very surprised if the hot cat (as photographed) turns out to be anything besides a commercially available tube furnace buried under a layer of furnace paste.

            • Peter Roe

              Right. That would of course mean that both the Penon test (Aug 2012), and Rossi’s in-house test (Oct 2012) were faked, that there was no US corporate purchase of the IP, and that either the current 3rd party tests will show nothing, or they don’t exist at all. In other words that the whole thing has been fabricated and Rossi is fooling everyone he has contact with, using a heater he bought off the shelf and covered in fireclay.

              I suppose that this theory is possible at say the 0.1% level of probability, but personally I prefer my odds a little higher. You may need to be prepared for that surprise.

              • AlainCo

                add to that that Nelson report for Defkalion is a fraud, that Nelson is corrupt (he confirms the report to Gibbs), that Brillouin have corrupted SRI members to make a faked report….
                Add to that that Pianteli, Celani have frauded, that STMicro have made huge errors or been corrupted by Celani…

                0.001% seems overrated…

                don’t imagine the business sharks believe that conspiracy. ;-) they work.

                However for what I know most serious guys think that Rossi and Defkalion are too amateur for the job. When research will be done with millions, the garage inventor will lose their advance. sadly. at best they will be bought by big corps.

              • GreenWin

                Skeps continue to grasp at the vapid hope that all is illusion. The mountains of LENR proofs and evidence aside. Such criticism is lacking toward the $270+Billion taxpayer dollars used by hot fusion istas. Who promise big things every 20 years and deliver… zed.

        • Asterix

          A nice story, but it can’t possibly work that way, at least not with the coopreation of governmental authorities.

          Suppose one of Mr. Rossi’s trucks carrying his magic fuel and catalyst encounters an accident en route to a refueling. The authorities will demand to know EXACTLY what they’re dealing with, particularly if one mentions the word “nuclear”–the “N” in LENR.

          Suppose one of Mr. Rossi’s magic megawatt boxes develops a problem, even one not related to his magic process, such as a steam leak or short circuit. Local emergency response teams will demand to know what they’re dealing with.

          Without full disclosure to the appropriate agencies, Mr. Rossi will never gain a license to sell and isntall one of these things.

          In the case of an emergency, no one is going to believe an SGS document issued for an experimental prototype–just look at the SGS documentation for Lutec–a complete fraud.

          • Peter Roe

            It is normally only necessary to disclose any hazardous substance as defined in COSHH documentation in Europe, or equivalent in other places, so that a safety code can be allocated. In this case the presence of nickel dust in the cores would have to be disclosed, but the description could be pretty generic, e.g., “a mixture of finely powdered nickel metal and light metal hydrides” or similar.

            The whole fledgling industry should look at finding a new acronym that does not involve the word ‘nuclear’, or they will definitely encounter avoidable problems when devices are rolled out. Substituting the word ‘nucleonic’ might be a start, but ideally a new word should be coined as a matter of urgency to cover this and related phenomena.

            Edit:
            ADMIN: There may be a problem with indentation beyond second level.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Dan, “All he has to do is set up a webcam”. Which modes of measurement error or fraud could a webcam rule out?

      • Daniel Maris

        We are talking about transparency here. Rossi gives the impression of transparency on JNP but all he has to do for real transparency is show one of his machines working. Why do you think he doesn’t as it’s so easy in this day and age?

        • Pekka Janhunen

          If he puts webcam in a room with reactor alone, it would be possible, but it wouldn’t show anything interesting because the reactor doesn’t move (unless it explodes;-). This was discussed on JONP at one time. On the other hand he doesn’t want to puts it in his workshop because he wants to keep the internals of the reactor secret as well as the site and identity of his people, to avoid paparazzis and espionage. From what people do around the reactor observers could infer a lot about how it’s working, for example, which chemicals are handled and which tools and measurement devices are used. Actually I’m not aware of any company who has a public webcam in their office or factory.
          In any case, a scientific third party report which we have been promised immediately trumps anything a webcam could do as a credibility booster.

          • Daniel Maris

            That’s such a weak argument. It can show the dials. It can show people checking on the machine. It can be switched off when technicians open it up.

            I am not convinced there will be an independent scientific third party report. There’s been no evidence given that that has been carried out. And the report date has now stretched from something like November 2012 to April 2013.

    • M a r i o

      Why do you care so much ? Is there any particular reason ?

      If it is true is true, if not it will disappear by itself.

      • Daniel Maris

        Well I care in the same way I comb my hair in the morning. Thinking about the future is part of life. I’d like to know if LENR is a real phenomenon or not.