MFMP: The Data Points Are Starting to Converge

This guest post was submitted by Bob Greenyer of the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project.

After over 50 years and many 10s of billions later, another group of projects has failed to show any hint of sustained excess energy with quite a few gigawatt hours of input energy to date. It is not the energy to load 1m of 0.2mm wire that is important, it is energy density. The wires are loaded with minuscule amounts of hydrogen passively and seem to produce PXs passively – that means if there was 100 meters in the same loading chamber, it could all be loaded with the same single heating wire with just a smidgen more input power to raise the wire bulk to loading temperature. The same goes for triggering. However, LENR is claimed to have very high energy densities and this could result in a very dangerous apparatus.

We are on a journey to produce a SAFE experiment that is easy to reproduce and incontrovertibly demonstrates the New Fire.

The New Fire is a subset of LENR that produces net thermal gain. Some LENR is endothermic and therefore does not qualify. Also it is likely not a fusion process in the same way that Hot Fusion is and also runs at above the temperature of a bath – so the name Cold Fusion is doubly inappropriate.

To date:

First US test 300+ layer wire — Loaded perfectly as per Celani’s claims, saw possible 8W but then toasted due to over current.

First EU test 350 layer wire — Loaded perfectly, showed sustained 5W over 48 hours on conservative baseline – 12.5% PXs – energy way past chemical.

Second US double test 2 and 14 layer wires — loading took a long time, but today is punching through 5.2W on Cell 1.1 and punching through 4W on Cell 1.0 on 15 min average basis.

Second EU experiment with 2 layer wire — loading took a long time and a novel approach is being undertaken with the active wire now removed and the cell run again – this is showing around 3+W

So, it seems whatever Celani wire we use, and whatever calibration method we use, we are seeing something interesting each time.

HOWEVER, there are a lot of things in the current protocol that leaves the experiment open to question. Since we want this to be incontrovertible, we have to do two things, address these doubts head on and remove them, and increase the signal to noise ratio.

We are in the process of doing much of that with the new steel cell, in addition, we are finalising a new protocol that should address many of the outstanding questions – if it performs as expected, we have the lab rat that can be sent to independent institutions around the world so that together we can explore the New Fire together.

We are funded principally by the time, resources and cash given by members and followers and donations. You can see some of our costs here:

bit.ly/UmdWFe

Thank you again to all those that have helped us get this far.

  • Visitor

    OT:

    “The technology we are developing will allow a car to travel 40,000 kilometers on a single tank of fuel without generating any waste.”

    http://tinyurl.com/bah48dc

    • artefact

      Good one!

    • Kim Patterson

      Celani can get a few wires to produce a few watts
      of energy, but this Guy will have a car ready by
      2014 that will get 40,000 km to the mile?

      I give up!

      I’ve said it before… The guys in the rafters wanted this technology on the street yesterday,
      but can’t figure how to put a meter on it.

      Respect
      Kim

      • Dickyaesta

        Isn’t Nicolas Chauvin of the car of 40,000 km the same person who works in the MFMP Euro experiment in Switzerland? I am a bit lost because talking of EU experiment in Switzerland, Southern France and even Germany!

        Anyway I wish him and all MFMP team all the best, although the car of a range of fuel of 40,000 km in 2014 inspires me more than convincing a scientific community, which up to now are behaving like little children about to lose their favorite toys, :). Sorry for MFMP 😉

        Dick_ya_esta from a sunny though cold northern Spain

        • Peter_Roe

          Yes, Nicolas Chauvin is the enthusiast who wants to use a Rossi and/or DGT reactor to power a car, and who works with MFMP.

          http://www.lenr-cars.com

          He may be being a tad optimistic about actual progress towards this goal in the article. A couple of decades may be more realistic.

          Peter Roe from dull, cold, wet southern England.

          • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

            I predict that within 2 years from availability of individual E-cats or similar devices, someone (maybe a technical high school) will have built a prototype car around them. Not a marketable product, but the first working prototype of a LENR powered car.

            • Peter_Roe

              I agree, Pekka – probably even less. Its just that I think that privately owned domestic/portable e-cats are probably a couple of decades away! (For ‘political’ reasons, not because of technical problems.)

              • georgehants

                As others have said, if our Mr. Rossi comes across with the goods, every do it yourselfer will be building E-cats within a fortnight.
                Somebody will find the formula which I think is why Mr. Rossi wants to get well ahead.

  • artefact
    • Shane D.

      Hopefully the significance of this latest MFMP development doesn’t get overlooked so shortly after Admin highlighted Bob Greenyers post from earlier. Just for your info… this is a brand new Greenyer MFMP communication to the troops (us).

      Very, very significant developments all within a rather short time. The MFMP team has developed a brand new protocol based on their recent lab experiences while incorporating a new Celani test that simplifies the process with fewer variables.

      So please read. Their concensus is that they have been successful, but understandably too many questions remain, so these new testing regimens will resolve all doubt.

      Looks like they are on the scent now after following a few faint trails earlier. It is very obvious also that they are in for the duration. These guys are for real. And they are “open source”. What a breath of fresh air after what us believers have had to endure.

      I still somewhat believe in Rossi, but after his frustrating antics I hope it is time that the LENR field gets on without him. And this MFMP team, along with Celani (bravo Celani), and the Pirelli group seems to be the way forward.

      Not to disparage the Brillouins, Nanospires, SRIs, Lenucos, Coolescences, Leonardos, DGTs, etc., but come on, this has been going on long enough!

      Time to put up or shut up… oh if this were so simple.

      • GreenWin

        If you are frustrated by the antics and deceptions of CF researchers – you can imagine how disappointed we are in the 60 year $270billion taxpayer funds bamboozled by the “hot” fusion scientists. With absolutely zero production of useful energy.

  • georgehants

    Andrea Rossi
    February 5th, 2013 at 1:19 PM
    Dear Broenink:
    The third party indipendent validation tests have been funded directly by the scientists and some of the Universities ( not Italian) which are making the tests. All the expenses for instrumentation, men hours, hotel, restaurants, taxi etc have been paid indipendently by the Entities who are making the indipendent validation. This is the reason why
    1- the report will be published indipendently from the results
    2- we cannot know anything of the date of the publication
    3- we do not know where the publication will be made
    4- we do not know exactly when the tests, that are still in the making, will be finished. Lately I have been informed that more tests will be made to be sure of the results, repeating again the tests.
    5- we can assist to the tests, but we cannot make any operation during the tests.
    6- the reason for which all these scientists are making these tests and for which their Universities are paying the expenses is merely scientific
    Thank you for your questions,
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Chris the 2nd

      Peer reviewers pouring over this one then. Taking comments at face value this means they are looking for holes and more data is needed to address their queries. Positive information, if he’s not lying.

    • Peter Poulsen

      “Lately I have been informed that more tests will be made to be sure of the results, repeating again the tests”

      so basically Rossi bought himself a few more months…
      Im tired of the “Rossi says” comments…

  • Mannstein

    The most encouraging result reported at the MIT class by Hagelstein and Swartz was the direct correlation of Helium generation with excess heat. Swartz also used a number of independent methods to demonstrate that his device was indeed generating excess heat so there is no no doubt that the effect is real and not due to measurement artifact. It’s high time that those naysayers of the scientific community admit they were wrong.

    • AstralProjectee

      It still needs to be replicated probably a couple of times. That is the scientific standard these days.

    • stuey81

      was that with Ni + H, i dont think so, ?

  • Shane D.

    I just donated to MFMP and hopefully many others will follow.

    All here have a strong desire to see this new technology gain acceptance in academicia and the media for obvious world changing reasons. We no longer want LENR to be viewed as a “pathologic science”, with it’s adherents like you and I seen as nut cases,

    and what better way to accomplish these goals other then to have MFMPs cells purring away in labs across the world producing excess power?

    After 24 years of frustration we finally have that one chance where we can do more then talk… we can take action.

    For the record… I have no affiliation whatsoever with MFMP.

    • GreenWin

      Thanks Shane. Nicely done.

      • clovis

        yep, thanks Shane,
        You can how say you helped, in the coming out of lenr.and be listed along with other positive minded people, good on you.

  • clovis

    HI, GUYS&GIRLS.

    All good news this morning, lenr is definitely on its way, the new fire as Dr. R calls it is burning bright.
    I am so glad that Bob Greenyer and his team did debut their project here, and kept us so well informed. They will go down in history as the ones that put the real world : science , into this lenr discovery.
    And open scorce, for all to see, which i love, power to the people,—-smile

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      I’m all for the open source efforts but I predict that the real products will come from private entrepreneurial inventors and investors.

      I regularly (monthly) donate a small amount to a open sourcer.

      The nice thing about open source is that it promotes competition.

    • stuey81

      clovis, your not a politian are you by anychance? you manage to post without really ever saying anything, or putting any ideas/questions forward.

  • G. Westreicher

    Defkalion online again
    http://www.defkalion-energy.com/

    • Blanco69

      Their new website says their business approach has two directions but you can only see direction two. Direction one must be a secret.

      • Hugo

        Must be your browser. To quote:

        “DIRECTION ONE:

        Covers the needs of existing companies wishing to use our core technology (reactor) to upgrade products and/or to significantly decrease
        energy costs through common R&D and Product Development contracts.

        DIRECTION TWO:

        Licensing the rights sold on our completed product; the Hyperion (45 kW of thermal energy in a self-contained 45x45x45cm box fully automated with internal software and heat management system). OEM licensees are companies interested in manufacturing, selling and servicing
        Hyperion products exclusively.”

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          I would not trust anything Defkalion says: The quote below is from the 11/29/2011 article in Ny Teknik written by Mats Lewan. This proves to me whatever Defkalion has it was stolen from Rossi.
          The above article quotes Alexandros Xanthoulis, President of Defkalion:
          “- Let’s say I have Rossi’s formula, but I do not say it officially. My scientists have found a way to accomplish it. They need three months. I know what is in the reactor. I know everything. It was done with spectroscopy at Siena University of Padova (…) They tested the reactor without [Rossi] knew what they were doing, he continued.”

          Enough said, Rossi is the real deal.

          • http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php AlainCo

            imagine that DGT know Rossi catalys, proably one of the many tested product don by another scientist.
            they know it…
            and as they says they find that it does not work well.
            then they find another technique, based on plasma, on nickel foam, and some new product…
            note that they complain that rossi steal some of their ideas, and break a promise…

            read all the story before taking a position.

            what they propose is very different, even from most work in labs.

            and meantime Rossi instead of applying a real patent, just lie and hide to the patent office.

            • Bernie Koppenhofer

              AlainCo….I have read the whole story, I have been following DGT and Rossi since December of 2010.

          • dsm

            Bernie

            Was what you quoted the actual words spoken or an English translation from Danish from Greek ? – I believe you need greater accuracy that hearsay upon hearsay. The difficulty is always going to be reading into something that which suits our personal wants.

            Cheers DSM

            • Bernie Koppenhofer

              dsm….Give me a break…..the quote is not accurate because of the translation, the quote was in an article by a respected journalist/scientist, Mats Lewan. His meaning was very clear in the article, please read the article.

      • artefact

        I still see the old page.
        Probably it was just a test 🙂

        • http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php AlainCo

          it is already a working page, with link to their web agency…
          they are updated today…

          They seems to have something better to do than to make a sexy web site, and budget to pay someone else…

          • artefact

            No, I mean I still see the:
            “WE ARE CURRENTLY UPDATING OUR WEBSITE
            THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE”
            Probably they have a new IP which is not yet propageted to all DNS-Servers or something else.

        • Veblin
          • artefact

            The links without www works for me now. Thank you.

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      LOL!! In their Hyperion specs they still have the pleasure sensor (page 4/21) http://aromapress.com/~defkalio/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/2011-11-30_Hyperion-Spec-Sheet.pdf

      • GreenWin

        Had they a “pleasure radiator” in the device, they might find a surprisingly receptive market.

        • georgehants

          GreenWin and Peter —
          New World Order Exposed by Australian Politician in Parliament.,
          http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread923605/pg1

          • GreenWin

            Oh dear. It’s all unraveling now.

          • Peter_Roe

            Brave woman. I wonder what proportion of her audience shook their heads and dismissed the whole thing right afterwards.

  • Peter_Roe

    Reading between the lines it sounds like MFMP are building a multi-wire (or longer coiled wire) metal cased Celani unit that could be subjected to conventional water calorimetry (“address these doubts head on and remove them, and increase the signal to noise ratio.. …new steel cell”).

    I suspect that an arrangement like this will prove pretty conclusive, will be replicable, and might even form the basis of an operational reactor design. Great work, Bob and crew – keep it rolling!

    • Peter_Roe

      Of course, only replicable IF Celani’s full method of preparing wires is disclosed – if it is not, then MFMP is in effect doing Celani’s R&D for him, FOC.

      In any case he stands to benefit from his patent if other people find practical uses for his discovery, and will presumably be able to control any such commercial applications unless they differ significantly from his broad-ranging patent description.

      • http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php AlainCo

        in fact if celani process is not know, this is good for LENR.
        even if it is alien unicorn wire, showing that you can produce heat above any chemical from whatever it can be, is a revolution. even if it is secret or blackmagic.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Right, I don’t understand why MFMP is considered “open source” when Celani will not reveal how the wire is made. As far as I am concerned it is just like what Rossi has done, demonstrate LENR without revealing the secret. What we need are “open source” LENR material scientists.

        • georgehants

          Would I be correct that MIT and other university’s are researching Cold Fusion.
          Is their research open source I wonder.

        • GreenWin

          Most universities have a firm policy with regard to IP developed in their research centers – it belongs to the University. And their lawyers tell the researchers NOT to distribute IP to public domain – because they want to benefit from it. Surprise. Things of great value are not given away. People want to keep the fruits of their labor. Same as a farmer cannot afford to give his crops away.

    • Lukedc

      Bob just posted on MFMP.

      By the end of today we hope we will post a mega blog that I think is going to surprise you all. It will address most of the challenges and problems we have seen to date. What we have done so far has given us much confidence that Celani really has something and this set of tests will be run during our kickstarter and we hope will produce the conclusive evidence that the New Fire is not only possible, but really on its way to us.

      These tests are going to be expensive for us, so we hope that when the Kickstarter is running, everyone can rally together and spread the word to the world to help let us light the New Fire together.

  • Ged

    The volume of the data is starting to get quite potent.

    Keep it up guys. I love removing the wire and running the cell again, that is a brilliant control. Definitely got something going on!

  • GreenWin

    In reply to Barry’s comment below.

    Thanks Barry. You might consider the potential difference in step size. My sense is the steps forward are great strides – made in a rather astonishing short time (3-4 years.) Compare to my favorite boondoggle, ITER, NIF… big brains, big money, 60 years, next to no reward. So, our steps backwards, are small, centimeter lengths, yielding an overall progress so disruptive as to cause teeth gnash and guttural mutterings in the ivory tower. Which makes for excellent drama!

    • Barry

      Thanks GreenWin, Just taking my turn being the
      doubting Thomas.

  • http://www.american-reporter.com Joe Shea

    The fact that these kinds of experiments are occurring all over the world is our strongest basis yet to hope that the technology will be brought fully to fruition in a reasonable amount of time.

  • Andrew

    What does endothermic LENR mean practically? Would sustained endothermic reaction mean it could be used for refrigeration?

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      If endothermic LENR exists even above room temperature (as long as the temperature is lower than exothermic LENR), it would in principle allow an electricity producing apparatus with zero waste heat (by enclosing the exothermic and endothermic cell in a thermally insulated box and installing a heat engine between them). That kind of device could in turn be quite a game changer in space applications where waste heat is a fundamental issue.

      • Peter_Roe

        And not just in space. Waste heat ejection is a large potential problem for vehicle propulsion (especially when parked indoors), home power units (summer use) and many other applications where waste heat could not be used to provide a secondary gain. It might also open the way for miniaturised power devices for phones, tablets etc (who wants a cooling fan in their phone!).

        Cheap refrigeration could also be a large factor in reducing the cost of shipping food, liquefied gas and so on around the world (in CF powered ships of course).

        • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

          Yeah, so developers don’t ignore endothermic outcomes as failures, they might seed a second LENR revolution (even if the first one hasn’t started yet).

          • GreenWin

            I have argued for a couple years that LENR introduction will parallel refrigeration circa 1900s. First widespread vapor compression refrigeration units were built for industrial ice houses, meat packing and breweries. As these proved successful, the technology was downsized to home appliance size (opposed by ice house conglomerates.)

            Mid 1920s CFCs (eg Freon) replaced ammonia as a safer refrigerant, and Frigidaire introduced the home appliance. Twenty years later most western homes replaced centralized ice house deliveries with their own refrigerator.

            It would be fascinating if the endothermic CF effect replaced vapor compression – becoming the method of air cooling in Combined Cooling Heat and Power units.

      • http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php AlainCo

        there is not yet any evidence of endothermic LENR.
        what appears at MFMP is not validated and probably is calibration problem, or symptome of heat on the control experiment. MFMP experiment is far from bein the best calorimetry done on LENR.

        if it were existing, endothermic LENR would be transmutation absorbing heat. Normally it will allow simply to store cold, like we do with chemical reaction, or with phase change reaction…

        If it was unlimited, it would break Thermodynamic laws, and it would be very different from what classic LENR is today… LENr today is a plain simple nuclear reaction in a unusual context…

    • Hugo

      You’d need energies in the range of above a GeV in order to get mass. Once you’ve got that far, using it for refrigeration would probably be the least of your concerns (unless in very special circumstances but certainly not to cool a beer).

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        I guess you mean MeV?

        It’s unclear to me whether endothermic LENR could be possible in principle or not. Low energy quanta shouldn’t be able to combine to form high energy quanta spontaneously.

  • Barry

    Cold Fusion is starting to feel like one step forward, one step backwards.
    It was quite encouraging though to see a chart at the MIT class that stated 80 COP for 30 minutes with a series 7 NANOR.