A report on the Italian web site NextME cites a communique released by Defkalion Green Technologies announcing the formation of a joint venture between DGT and Milan-based MOSE s.r.l.
The article explains that the partnership, to be known as ‘Defkalion Europe’ will be a research and development venture which will focus on developing the Hyperion reactor. According to Defkalion’s announcement, they are able to produce a stable reaction using a plasma discharge mechanism, and can safely produce temperatures of 600 C. They say their product, unlike Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat, does not need recharging every six months.
Defkalion state that they are now ready to enter the market, however they say “this process will not be immediate but will take several years , as it will allow time for the big players in the energy distribution change their assets and strategies in a non-traumatic in a synergistic way to new technology”
The above information was obtained from a Google translation of the original Italian.
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2nd try.
I noticed that the post “Report: Toyota Replicates Mitsubishi LENR Transmutation Experiment” from december 7 is the top result when I search google for “LENR”
interesting, how did that post end up first ?
This I think can be rightly, fairly and understandably summed up as saying as with Cold Fusion.
—
Science does not have an answer.
—
http://io9.com/5975861/poll-shows-that-quantum-physicists-agree-to-disagree-about-the-nature-of-reality
Why be afraid to admit it, almost nothing of reality is understood, why try to make out they have all the answers.
The joy of science is to confront the mysterious and unknown, revel in discovery, celebrate any advance.
great photo
from the actual paper (http://arxiv.org/pdf/1301.1069v1.pdf)
Question 14: How much is the choice of interpretation a matter of personal philosophical prejudice?
58% answered “a lot”
27% answered “a little”
That’s how scientific consensus works.
It’s good to know what we don’t know. Progress!
At least Rumsfeld got one thing right.
To clear a point I made earlier just for those that are interested and I apologise to those that think that a point can always be made without moving into new territory.
That is like following a trail to a destination laid by one’s elders and nobody ever gains the courage to walk into the mountains and find a much quicker, safer or more beautiful path.
—
Mr. Rossi announced three years ago that he had discovered a high output Energy device.
From that moment no amount of discussion, argument, believing, disbelieving, abuse, denial, “expert opinion” or anger has made one iota of difference.
As always with an open-mind there are provisos, I will give a link to one, we may be getting just what we wish for and deserve.
—
The Global Consciousness Project, Meaningful Correlations in Random Data.
http://noosphere.princeton.edu/homepage.html
—
Only Evidence means anything and any scientist who believes otherwise is not acting scientifically.
It, at this moment and for a long time has been, I think fairly agreed that the Evidence produced is not conclusive and therefor we wait.
This does not mean that discussion and fair argument is not Fun and even enlightening but scientifically it is mute.
My pointless personal opinion again of Rossi is that I am 99.9% sure he has something substantial.
From recent comments at JONP we learn that the 3rd party testing team is European rather than US and that it contains also sceptical scientists. (Perhaps British, if they are eurosceptic
). We also learn that AR has been reading Sean Carroll’s book about Higgs boson for general interest. Sean Carroll, incidentally, is an outspoken atheist and married with Jennifer Ouellette. It’s a small world. Maybe they had sent the book to AR as a gift.
Pekka, in with his reading of hard physics I hope he is absorbing some Jung and Sheldrake for balance.
What is so very nice is that the big energy companies are being given time to hide their profits !
“as it will allow time for the big players in the energy distribution change their assets and strategies in a non-traumatic in a synergistic way ”
Come on ! Have you ever heard such rubbish!
Good Guys in Business OH Yeah !
Now I know it’s a scam. Every few weeks when I look for updates on the subject, I read next month, in a couple of months for sure, early next year and now in two years plus. Yes, it’s ready, but we want to be nice to the energy giants to give them time to adjust bla bla bla. Sorry, no more waiting for me. I’m getting a bio-methane plant in my back yard and will shovel pig poo to convert to electricity.
Well, I don’t believe articles on the paper – I want to see a practical working device.
Pull out the champagne, it is official now; Big Bucks are selling their oilfields, force Rossi and Defkalion with an offer they can’t resist, to wait a bit for an orderly transfer to cold fusion.
This scenario has its points, although I am not sure it is so beneficial for all of us, what about the poor s… who buy these oilfields at very much inflated prices, bad luck, guys, for not being on the inner circle!
So at the end we are all paying for the Big Bucks to get out in time, nothing new there. The only way is to learn to play along with them and you are home free, and you will have enough money to buy many e-cats to warm your house and that of your family and friends after the deluge!
Because in spite of the’ benevolent’ action of the men in power, the rest of us will have to restructure AFTER the news is out… I am not saying cold fusion won’t be benevolent for us, but slow adaption will not avoid a time of chaos the same as quick adaption, only the victims will be different guys.
Happy bubbles to all of you, but sober up rapidly you are in for a bumpy ride.
Today Energy is Slavery.
Tomorrow energy will be life.
If I had a device that produced free energy, would I not sell
this energy to the power company to receive a credit of $100.
Now as free energy devices come on line, with everyone pumping
free energy into they grid, would we not be swimming in a sea
of energy in short order?
I mean everywhere! Unlimited Energy!
I would build a green house. Lights, Fans, Controlled Temperatures.
Food!
Food=Energy
Darn it my bearings wore out in my fan. Hey I wonder if my neighbor
would fix my fan if I gave him a month supply of vegetables.
Hey Food = Money and Energy.
After about 100 years… Energy concepts would replace money and
economies. People please use your noodle and realize what we would
be creating with unlimited energy and life.
I would say that currently Energy is Money/Economy.
Do you honestly believe that a race of beings that has
the ability to traverse light years would not also
have access to free energy, or did they just come here
to make change for a twenty.
We would not have to have a gangster operations 24/7. We could actually get some clarity and truth once in a while.
Have you ever noticed how good gangsters are at deception.
Actually I think of them as Men/Bullies that never grew up.
They love the boys club.
But what they do best is protect their gold/energy.
Respect
Kim
What if Henry Ford had said: “I think I’ll delay the Model T production line because I don’t want to upset the horse industry”. That’s nuts! Similarly, no one with a source of cheap, none-polluting energy should spend one second worrying about the fate of the oil barons and their polluting fluids. They already have all the wealth they need, and they might consider using some of it to participate in LENR breakthough and progress. LENR will cause a temporary downward shift in an old part of the econmic sector, but that will be quickly sorted and the whole of humanity, right down to the poorest wanderer, will be quickly lifted into a much better and richer life. Now that the LENR secret is out, nothing on earth can stop it, or the transformation in human history that will accompany it. So if anyone really has the royal juice needed to make it happen more quickly, it would be crazy and wrong to delay things a minute longer than necessary. So DGT, if you really have something, clearly show it and get on with your job! ( Same to you Rossi! By the way, I’m anxiously looking forward to next month’s revelation of the results independent Hot Cat test. They must come,if they exist, because why would anyone hestitate to announce or try to conceal a breakthough only slightly less important than the second coming?)
very well said. thank you
“Defkalion state that they are now ready to enter the market, however they say ‘this process will not be immediate but will take several years…”
Does this mean that Defkalion will NOT publicly display a working LENR reactor for “several years”? If that is their plan then I suspect that Defkalion does not have a working LENR reactor and they are just jerking us around, just like the folks who claim to have a working Papp engine have been jerking us around and around and around.
It’s enough to make you dizzy and angry!
That has been AR’s opinion about DGT all the time, anyway. And he wasn’t amused. If that is the truth or not about DGT is another question. Those involved (such as AR) know it best, but some things might be unclear even to them.
We have to face facts… there is not going to be any “Free Energy Revolution”. Rossi and Defkalion, assuming they having anything at all, are Capitalists interested only in making money.
We can all go straight to hell with our dreams of FREE energy. It isn’t going to happen, unless it’s Open Sourced.
The whole world is run by gangsters.
Its a boys club.
If they can’t turn it into money its
worthless.
Respect
Kim
Linda,
You had a dream of FREE energy? Was that like my dream of a free car and free housing and maybe free education? Actually, that’s a nightmare. Look at any time anything is offered for free and the price is ALWAYS too high. Read the book Agenda 21 in which everything is free.
You could probably benefit from some good economics courses, if you can find them. The fact is that the profit motive drives people to offer better service at a better price more often than not.
You seem to have gotten your economic education from movies and TV in which the business owner is protrayed as evil. Think about this. How much food would the farmer produce if he had to sell it at cost? I assume you have a computer. Was the P.C. developed for free or was it sold at a profit so the company could plow those profits back into improving the products. If you’re old enough to remember back to 1981 or so when P.C.s were invented, think about the P.C.s we had then and compare them to what you’re using now. Profit makes for progress.
Rossi is going to produce his e-cats for profit and they will profit the entire world along with him.
“and they will profit the entire world.”
No, sorry. The profits will trickle up, not down, and they will eventually find their way to the 100 richest individuals in the world, who alone, by themselves have over $1.9 TRILLION IN PERSONAL WEALTH.
That is a reality, not an apples and PCs analogy. Again, sorry, but everything you learned in grade school about the inherent fairness of Capitalism is wrong.
You better hope they are capitalists. If anything happens in this world, it’s because capitalism made it happen.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/01/20/145360447/the-secret-document-that-transformed-china
capitalism sucks ass without a heavy dose of socialism. but let’s not debate that too much here.
China is the most ruthless Capitalist nation on earth, second only to the United States.
Even so, that article you cite is a neo-liberal fabrication… Hundreds of Google links all point to the exact same text.
Yes, and what else has Capitalism made? 100 million casualties and counting from this Global Recession. You can’t tell me all of those suicides and nouveau-homeless were all pathetic slackers.
Capitalism is killing us. The eCat could spell the eventual end of Capitalism. Humanity needs the eCat like it needs its next breath.
Linda,
What exactly is your agenda? You seem to be spending a whole lot of time on communist conspiracy theory sites. Don’t you work or something?
This subject area is off-topic, but I for one would agree with Linda that todays ‘bankster’ dominated world kleptocracy is wrecking the lives of millions, for the obscene benefit of the ‘elites’.
We have watched a real conspiracy in action over the last couple of years, with the total non-reporting of developments in cold fusion, including academic ones such as Hagelsteins ‘Nanor’.
Conspiracies exist, and it seems reasonable that people should explore and reveal them using the internet, as no other venues remain open to the average person. I wonder where the word ‘communist’ enters into this – or do you think that anyone who questions the status quo must be one?
Linda, the whole problenm lies in your first assumption, that “they have anything at all”.
The fact is, so far they have nothing. That is the whole problem. It always has been.
I do believe if they had something even a little bit close to what they claimed then they probably would have gone a long way towards living up to their promises of public demonstrations and deliveries.
I also think that they really did believe that they could get something working by the due dates but these beliefs were based more on wishful thinking rather than reality.
So you missed/are ignoring/discount NASA scientist Michael Nelson’s positive report on their progress up to March of last year then?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/110777715/Summary-of-Visit-to-Defkalion
Note that this report should habe make more noise than Hiroshima in a rational world…
It have been confirmed by critical Gibbs, and the Nelson critical history with Rossi, add to the credibility…
this is the exact proof that NO REPORT CAN CONVINCE!
any business man know that DGT behavior as reported by nelson is the best evidence, that DGT know their reactor works well.
the opposite behavior by Rossi makes Nelson furious and Krivit very skeptical.
yet now the discussion among the skeptiks don’t change , like the one at SciAm/APS…
they never learn from facts.
At some point you have to wonder whether ‘skeptics’ are unaware of certain critical information or are simply ignoring it in order to further an agenda.
When the pattern is consistently repeated this tends to eliminate the first possibility.
It is probably not conscious, yet it is for good reasons like many things seen in psychiatric hospital.
I have the theory:
http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers/Patterns%20of%20Denial%204l%20fin.pdf
and the model:
http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers/Groupthink%20IOM%207p%20paper.pdf
works well for many of the recent scandal, like internet bubble, subprimes, and many other scientific scandal that I won’t cite here…
Certainly there is not much evidence of consciousness in the endless repetition of ‘It’s a sc*m, they’ve got nothing, move along there’ which seems to be about all the shills have left to say.
The more I think about this:
“this process will not be immediate but will take several years , as it will allow time for the big players in the energy distribution change their assets and strategies in a non-traumatic in a synergistic way to new technology”
the madder I get!
I would like anyone with some pull with Defkalion’s crew to urge them to clarify and expand on this “several years” BS.
Read here:
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2013/01/lenr-outlook-2013.html?showComment=1358350658674#c4581273628925986377
well I still don’t buy it on first read. we need this technology and we need it now. As I told Rossi, LENR commercializers need to get progressive leaders/politicians on side and accelerate the coming to market timeline, not delay it.
Yes, especially since a year or so ago they were claiming to have a working machine and actually showed it in operation to Sterling Allan I think it was (he took photos or video I believe).
there is no incoherence in what they say.
read their story
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2012/08/defkalion-says-heni-is-more-proper-name.html
and add the recent story with Nelson testing, problem of reliability with sparkplug, moving to vancouver… partnership with mose SRL…
They planned to work with rossi, but rossi break promiss of canadian market, and steal some ideas…
they break in june, and try to develope their own reactor, convinced that it can work.
They look for solution like rossi, using heat, gas permeation,
It worked in nov 2011 but it does not work reliably. they change method, an their reactor called R4 was the first to use ion/plasma.
they file patent, change materials, met endurance problems, solve them…
meanwhile they ask for testers… it is more complex than what they imagine (what a surprise !)…
If there are some critics to send it is that they were too optimistic… classic for a startup.
the standard story for any startup is to imagine that it will be on the marker in 6 month, met a pile of problems, and finally sell a reduced version after 5 years.
Anyone ready to discuss an international “X Prize” for an Open Source LENR solution? Cos that’s what I’ve been driving at.
We are now longer in debate about the reality of LENR.
Now they have to figure out how to put a meter on it. (i.e. make money)
Here is the problem:
The gangsters want to make money, and can’t figure out how
to do it with out it being reversed engineered and then place
to the the virtual machine shop called the internet.
Andrea Rossie’s Hot Cat is not that difficult to arrange
Its has no moving parts and a secret ingredient.
This is what the problem is to date. They would immediately
loose control.
Boy that must be frustrating!
Cause I guarantee that that truly is the hold up at this time.
Respect
Kim
If energy cannot be meaningfully taxed, the government can always tax real estate. Land cannot avoid taxation by moving offshore.
Fresh air tax – oh, wait, we already have that – it’s called the Carbon Tax
If Rossi and DGT both ignore the domestic market and delay
plans for consumer produced energy market the void could be
filled by other competition.
lets face it people,the opportunity for a LENR revolution is now over, it will rather be an evolution and still in the end will end up in the hands of the rich, to get richer who will timely integrate it into their grit since it will be much more profitable than crude,fission ,wind and solar,but in the end there are many dozen ways to produce energy from the magnetic ether all around us ,for those who can not imagine that,in their eyes I am simply a quack,but frankly I could not care less.
I wish all great success
At least such a revolution will not come from Rossi or Defkalion. Hopefully Big Oil will not have time to sink their claws into Brillouion, the NANOR, Celini, Pirelli or some of the other smaller projects, but the longer we wait the greater that risk grows…
But I don’t think there’s much doubt anymore that LENR, or whichever name one uses, is a fact. What Rossi et al has claimed to do, though, is to harness this power to greater extent than anyone else has, but I don’t think it could be that hard to do, once someone else also starts to incorporate e.g. radio or audio frequency controls in their experiments. That said, I would be just as happy with a Hydrobetatron cutting my heating bill in half (which is what they claim to do – double the heat out, or more). ANY device that’ll make warming my house cheaper, if only buy a fraction, is of interest to me, and then one can start fine tuning it to give even more excess power. What we need, desperately, is the technology in our homes now!
Bovine excrement, basically. Except for whatever legalities one will have to work through, if I have a working prototype, even if built ‘by hand’, delivering excess heat – safely – for months, I need only build another one, by hand if necessary, and sell it, and voila! I’m on the market! Sell ten of them, and you’ll have enough money to buy some machinery to build a hundred a.s.o. Or simply let someone already with machinery build you a thousand ones – you don’t have to have your own factory – why would you? – on commission (there will be no shortage of interested buyers).
I’ve missed being on this site for the last several days. Been recovering from a bad case of the flu. Fortunately, I had some friends around to take me to the ER when I collapsed from Dehydration. Nothing is more important than having good family and friends. I think that is why I love this site. I like all the insight on Cold Fusion from all the users of this site. Even the ones who don’t believe, it still makes you think. I understand a lot about what is said, but I can always count on someone here to break it down even further for me to get the harder points. Thank you all for that. I’m very excited and feel like were are close to that critical event. Rossi is lying or he is telling the truth. I believe the latter.
Anyway it feel good to be back. Hope all of your are in good health and avoiding that nasty flu bug. I’m feeling much better.
Hi Drago, sorry to hear about you being so sick and I’m glad you are on the mend. They say the flu is especially bad this year — they are calling it an epidemic here in the US.
I agree with you about family and friends!
Thanks Frank! Keep up the good work.
The line:
“it will allow time for the big players in the energy distribution change their assets and strategies in a non-traumatic in a synergistic way to new technology”
is very similar to this one, said by a company named NRGLab who claims to have a low-cost energy Cat:
“The company will be introducing generators (SH boxes) onto the market step-by-step, so that Investors of crude oil and natural gas sectors have enough time for reinvestment.”
(http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:NRGLab_Pte._Ltd._SH_boxes)
Intersting… Game Changer technology companies are thinking of preventing economy collapse when rollout…
I don’t buy that. Problem is getting anybody to accept it + getting it to market over all the hurdles such a device will face after Chernobyl and Fukujima. To me this sounds like a bad excuse for not having anything to show.
It’s not something they can prevent. The collapse is coming. But they are covering their ass with some lip service/warnings.
The balance sheets of some of the biggest companies on the planet is about to take a massive hit. Virtually overnight.
Haven’t we learned yet that nothing is going to happen overnight? It’s not going to be like the Internet. More like the automobile. People won’t go gaga over a new design for water heaters. It’s the off-the-grid electricity generation that everyone wants.
Or at least they will do… when they finally get to hear that it may soon be possible.
In a reply to the previous post, user BigWilly wrote:
“I am utterly flabbergasted that GeorgeH and Daniele Passi have both dropped Rossi”
I have missed that news about Daniele Passerini. Does somebody have a pointer? Does Passerini give a reason?
Hi Andre, Daniele gives a long post on 22passi.blogspot.com giving his reasons. Among other things he says,
“I wrote long ago that the expiration of two years from January 14, 2011, I would have pulled the oars in the absence of official announcements and indubitable reality on E-Cat, which – by the way – I still do not have doubts, not on the basis of my desires (as the skeptics want to believe), but based on what I am told by several people absolutely worthy of respect and trust in direct contact with our engineer. Wait patiently that doubts can be dispelled even the whole world and come back to hoist the sails of a new post will come when the news we have been waiting for two years.” (google translated)
as Passerini explained he hasn’t dropped Rossi at all, he quits the blog for a while because it’s too time consuming with his current personal issues, job and new family. He will write again as soon as the report gets published.
By the way the post by BigWilly was clearly ironic or trolling
Hi Sirs,
It was a misunderstanding? Even Georgehants? His post seemed to tell me that after some inflection he has decided the last few years from Rossi have been a waste of time but perhaps my reading comprehension is poor.
Ironic and/or trolling? I don’t think so. Some may not subscribe to my extended deadline but I agree with many on this site that hot fusion has failed to take shape after so many years so that it is only fair we give prospective cold fusion technologies the same.
Thanks
BW
I think that Georgehants meant that discussing if Rossi (or anything else) is true or untrue is a waste of time unless one can bring in new facts or points of view into the discussion.
Thank you Pekka.
please forgive me but who is GeorgeH ?
georgehants, but I guess it was a misunderstanding as well.
The only people who could worry me by dropping Rossi, are prof. Levi, prof. Focardi, prof. Stremmenos, Daniele Passerini, Fioravanti/Cures and all the others who have personally tested the Ecat for some time or have access to reserved informations. Untill now all of them have been very supportive.
Thanks Frank, Renzo, BigWilly, Pekka, for clearing this up!
Amusing, as this is tantamount to saying, “We have to give the old goats a head start.” Why? Maybe they don’t want to wake to a bloody horse head in bed.
Greg Goble posting on Ruby Carat’s site reveals yet another major U.S. University – University Colorado Boulder, Quantum Engineering Lab, conducting LENR research (via hydrogen/deuterium loaded metal/nano lattices.) They have seven publications completed in the last two years:
http://ecee.colorado.edu/~moddel/QEL/LENR.html
UC Boulder is the hotbed of ultra-green climate people. Interesting they are beginning to accept the idea there is a better way than even solar and wind to alternative, clean, abundant energy. Very encouraging!
On further reading it looks like the UC Boulder Quantum Engineering lab has been receiving help from the Naval Research Lab, Materials Science and Chemistry Divisions. Dr. David Kidwell’s Anomalous Heat experiments were presented at the 15th ICCF in Rome 2009.
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/KidwellDdoesgasloa.pdf
http://www.rmi.org/
One can dream…
Thanks for the link Jim. I like what RMI does. In fact, an expanding network of charge stations will heighten EV sales. I hope RMI will remain open-minded about other alternatives to PV and wind.
As you know, a Tesla owner in California now has access to free energy via the Tesla supercharger net. EV owners can expect more free energy stations as purchase incentives during transition from fossil.
I knew about Coolescence, but I wasn’t aware of the connection with Colorado University.
2 things are interesting:
1) the 2012 PhD thesis from Olga Dmitriyeva is the first PhD thesis on LENR that I know of. Hey everybody, you can do your PhD thesis on LENR now !!!
2) They did find excess heat, but did not find any nuclear cause. They can explain it by chemical processes.
I guess there are too many unknown and unexpected chemical and nuclear processes going on in these metal latices and it will take more serious work to nail them down scientifically.
Which does not exclude the possibility that we can use the effect(s) in the mean time for energy production.
Gerrit, I have a problem with Olga’s thesis – not the experimental conclusions but its positioning out of UC Boulder. She credits NRL and Dr. Kidwell – yet is the first person to claim chemistry alone. She also did “zero point” experiments (an entirely different subject) and seems to conclude as most other experimenters do, that one cannot explain the Casimer Effect, either as ZP or something else.
Still, fascinating that this university is now engaging in LENR studies.
I would not trust anything Defkalion says: The quote below is from the 11/29/2011 article in Ny Teknik written by Mats Lewan. This proves to me whatever Defkalion has it was stolen from Rossi.
The above article quotes Alexandros Xanthoulis, President of Defkalion:
“- Let’s say I have Rossi’s formula, but I do not say it officially. My scientists have found a way to accomplish it. They need three months. I know what is in the reactor. I know everything. It was done with spectroscopy at Siena University of Padova (…) They tested the reactor without [Rossi] knew what they were doing, he continued.”
A statement that shall reverberate down the halls of many a courthouse. Unless a licensing arrangement settles all.
Daniel De Caluwe wrote about 1GW plant:
“2. But as your 1MWth plants have 100 10kWth units each, this makes 256400 (39% thermal-to-electrical efficiency) to 303000 (33% thermal-to-electrical efficiency) 10kWth units, that need to be refueled two times a year each, so that makes: 1404 (39% thermal-to-electrical efficiency) to 1659 (33% thermal-to-electrical efficiency) replacements of fuel each day!.”
This is good news. Hot-Cat is not very suitable for use in large power plants. It can be used only in small to medium, local power plants.
This will force the decentralization of energy production.
Yes, the only reason nuclear plants are big are that safety arrangements around them have a high cost per unit which makes small units uneconomical. Building a 1 GW E-cat plant wouldn’t make much sense since it’s cheaper and easier to distribute them to smaller 10-100 MW scale, say. It might only make sense as a rather temporary solution to retrofit an existing nuclear plant (e.g. one which was built but never started), to use some of the existing infrastructure at least the power transmission lines.
Hi Pekka, have read your last paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/1301.2100 nice work, i like the deorbiting idea.
Thanks, this paper is indeed quite recent, also not yet refereed.
If someone was determined to use hot cat reactors in large generating plants (e.g., to replace a nuclear fission core as Pekka suggests), I’m sure that there would be an engineering solution that would allow this.
Assuming the individual reactors can’t simply be increased in size (my guess is that they will be) the obvious approach is to build multiple-core units (say 50 units in each, mounted ‘end to end’) which themselves are withdrawn and replaced robotically in programmed sequences. Given Daniel De Caluwe’s figure, that might mean about 30 multiple units requiring routine replacement each day, plus the occasional failed unit.
All that would be needed would be to build in sufficient redundancy to allow for a small percentage of multiple units being ‘down’ for replacement at any given time.
I would agree with Peter. I think the hot cats could be bigger, but according to Rossi there is some danger involved in doing that.
I would guess that if you go for bigger hot cats and higher COP, you get better efficiency and probably less fuel consumption, but also more radiation. In a nuclear reactor that should not be much of a problem as that environment should be shielded already.
You could and indeed should automate the fuel replacement process, so the number of replacements should not be a problem at all.
Also, you would start to think in 1MW unit’s and not thousands of individual 10KW units. I imagine the core of a reactor would be a certain number of 10KW units grouped into a 1MW unit. A cylinder with 100 10KW units would do and would not be bigger than 1 meter in diameter. (Wasn’t that idea discussed on this site once?)
Once a 1MW unit dips under a certain efficiency threshold, you replace the 1MW unit with another spare one and recycle the old 1MW unit which can then be used to replace another below threshold unit.
About radiation, all lab experiment seems to have noticed that radiation is weak, around and below background at most, and that there is less radiation when there is heat.
radiation seems to be like smoke, caused by non optimal reaction.
note that i expect since long, that as soon as LENR get quite mainstream, the fearmonger and other priest of doom will frighten the mummy with fear of devilish radiation (hopefully the linear law no threshold just get buried officially for radiation, while it was clear since long , before F&P). they will be supported by big energy, so they can capture the business meanwhile and make it expensive with useless safety measures…
modern lobbies love useless safety, because it increase cost, thus the margin.
ideology lobbies love useless safety measure too, because it make people afraid, because fear make people surrender their freedom easily.
we will have to fight hard to avoid LENR being blocked by priest and big business.
Hi Alain,
When you up the COP too high, the reaction creates neutrons. It’s what Storms expects with hydrogen – nickel reactions, as opposed to deuterium – nickel/paladium reactions. I have no idea if this is caused by an non optimal reaction, but Rossi also hints that a high COP (200 and higher) is dangerous. Essentially LENR is a reaction of the weak force (radiation) as opposed to hot fusion which is a reaction of the strong force, so radiation is definately involved. At low power there is mostly gamma radiation which is then converted by the reactor wall into heat, but at higher COP other radiation is created. This is why Rossi has shielded his reactors with lead. At least this is how I understand this. Maybe someone else can shine some more light on this.
Major plus point for LENR is that the radiation is short lived and therefore much more manageable.
I do agree that the radiation part should not be misused by the opposition forces out there.
I also do wonder what the limit on LENR reactions is or how high a COP you can get. Any thoughts?
@:”At low power there is mostly gamma radiation which is then converted by the reactor wall into heat, but at higher COP other radiation is created.”
If the reactor emits gamma rays, this is not good news. Shield do not help much because it becomes radioactive, and as such must be disposed of (radioactive waste).
It may be that the gamma radiation is converted in the nickel lattice to heat already, not the reactor wall. Not sure here. We need some expert opinion on this. Anybody care to speculate?
all experience with LENr show very few gamma or neutrons, and mostly when not heating… heat and gamma seems to be exclusives branches.
Rossi made a redhearing with his lead shield… today it is tungsten tube simply. for defkalion it is steel wal… defkalion have noticed some gamma but very soft, from 30 to 500keV,and not much.
forget about what says Rossi… he have a reactor but no credibility.
This is meant as a reply on your post above because I can’t reply on a post nested that deep.
I did a bit of research and indeed mostly no gamma radiation is detected at the current low intensity LENR reactions, so you are right there. Didn’t know that so thanks for pointing that out.
On the high COP stuff I’m now not sure what kind of radiation is happening there or if it is different from the low ecat reactor.
If what you say is true and even the HOT Cat does not need shielding, the ecat is even more astonishing than I thought.
@Admin: this would be a most interesting topic for a post. What do we think is happening inside the ecat and does it behave different in a high COP configuration?
Other questions I have:
What is the limit on LENR reactions is and how high a COP can you get?
Or:
Why not build a really really big e-cat modules with a couple of kilo’s of nickel powder in it and let it run? Should have a lot of power, but instead we see small modules all over the place. Is there some sort of size limit on LENR?
Hi Alain,
When you up the COP too high, the reaction creates neutrons. It’s what Edmund Storms expects with hydrogen – nickel reactions, as opposed to deuterium – nickel/paladium reactions. I have no idea if this is caused by an non optimal reaction, but Rossi also hints that a high COP (200 and higher) is dangerous. Essentially LENR is a reaction of the weak force (radiation) as opposed to hot fusion which is a reaction of the strong force, so radiation is definately involved. At low power there is mostly gamma radiation which is then converted by the reactor wall into heat, but at higher COP other radiation is created. This is why Rossi has shielded his reactors with lead. At least this is how I understand this. Maybe someone else can shine some more light on this. I may have this all wrong.
Major plus point for LENR is that the radiation is short lived and therefore much, much more manageable.
I do agree that the radiation part should not be misused by the opposition forces out there.
I also do wonder what the limit on LENR reactions is and how high a COP you can get.
And the other thing is: Why not build a really big e-cat module with a couple of kilo’s of nickel and let it run. Should have a lot of power, but instead we see small modules all over the place.
Any thoughts?
The post above was marked for deletion and in moderation, but it somehow got through anyway. Please ignore
That’s strange. I thought they had the Hyperion reactor all sorted out and ready for demonstration by last July, 2012.
I seem to have missed that demonstraton.
Now comes the announcement that they are ready to enter the market.
Really?
Well not quite. They say it wont be immediate. They say it will take several years.
And apparently that’s so as not to unduly inconvenience the big energy producers.
Do they really expect us to believe that they could care less about the financial well being of the big energy producers?
Give me a break.
They can now consider my intelligence as being suitably insulted.
Defkalion once again says it will take them several YEARS, enough time to wait for a ROSSI eCat and find out what it is that they missed, I would not count on Defkalion for anything other than self promotion for investment.
Seems nonsense to me. If you have the technology which delivers a high COP, this shouldn’t be years away – well not unless they demonstrate it.
Is a nonsense to have an additional R&D center in Milano, Italy.
Unless so far DGT doesn’t have the due technology to put on public test at least one prototype really operational.
They could have good intentions, smart ideas, but to have an operational prototype, running for months continuously is a totally different achievement. And even with a COP 6 it would be acceptable.
IMO Defkalion is missing really something, and hopes to get it in Italy. Sooner or later.
I am not certain if AR’s (negative) viewpoint on DGT is the truth, but it seems not inconsistent with these facts.
Does seem like DGT has advanced passed those views.
Supposing DGT do have the knowledge (‘stolen’) of the elements inside Rossi’s e-cat, they are aware of the fact that if they use the same ignition driver ‘invented’ by Rossi, they will be indicted for that.
So, while Defkalion has proposed the plasma to drive their reactor, it seems that the road to carry out that job is very long.
Hence Defkalion is confident to find a solution in Italy, IMHO.
In some way Rossi is sincere when saying that Defkalion has no reactor ready and available for the market: at least so far, I think. For the future, who knows?
I agree that DGT probably stole most of Rossi’s IP of the time (his system probably didn’t work too well then, either) and then deliberately set out to find another way to do the same job, in order to avoid litigation, and possibly to avoid problems with AR’s methods.
I also doubt that they currently have a marketable product, but I think they are probably close enough to be taken seriously by both possible partners/investors, and by those determined to ensure that CF technology does not escape into the wild (US military and energy cartels).
We keep coming back to this idea that anyone with a working CF technology somehow needs to prove it to all and sundry. They don’t – what possible commercial advantage would there be in doing so?.
As Rossi keeps saying, the only criterion that makes any commercial sense is to get a working device to the market. The absence of ‘public demonstrations’ doesn’t mean a thing, either way.
what possible commercial advantage would there be in doing so?
Well, investors would climb over each other waving money to get in on the ground floor, for one thing. That would speed up getting a unit to market and provide a cushion against being under-capitalized, which can sink even the best invention.
Really, the last few years of ECW can be summed up in the old joke “If we had ham we could have ham and eggs, if we had eggs.”
There has already been sufficient publicity for DGT, plus the favourable report by Nelson, and they are almost certainly well supplied with prospective partners or investors.
In any case a public demo would almost certainly be met with the usual hail of denial and ridicule from naysayers that (as intended) would damage their credibility. Both Rossi and DGT now appear to have learned these lessons – others don’t seem to have made the same mistakes in the first place.
Pete, nothing is damaging Rossi and Defkalion more than the complete failure of both of these to provide convincing proof that they have something, anything, which lives up their claims.
Worse than that, it is now damaging the whole field of LENR.
One single verification by a reputable authority will immediately silence 90% of the critics.
Multiple verifications would silence 99.9% and you need not worry about the rest.
You can hardly blame the “naysayers” for stating what they consider is blindingly obvious.
Damaging what? Their credibility among the handful of blog readers who are aware of their stories? Rossi, DGT et al. are commercial enterprises. They don’t care what we think, or for that matter what ‘the critics’ (you mean shills and other naysayers of course) think or say, except perhaps when it becomes legally actionable.
The ‘whole field of LENR’ will continue unfazed and undamaged by the lack of any spectacular ‘demos’. The objectives of researchers are not linked to the activities of commercial developers, and they have their own proofs of principle.
And I don’t blame the ‘naysayers’ at all – some of them have to earn a crust, the rest will just turn out to be right or wrong, with zero consequences, just like those who are presently more optimistic. Essentially it’s all just noise that will not affect developments either way.
^ @mikeS_50 on January 16, 2013 at 12:27 pm
If that’s the case I think they should have announced an indefinite wait. I can’t see anything coming from that direction in the next two years.
Oh well. I suppose it gives them another two years to “kick the can down the road”.
Making promises with a two year timeline is actually a more realistic strategy to keep the adoring masses in line. It’s silly to make lots of short term promises that you can’t keep. Stick to long term promises that you can’t keep because it gives you longer to make up reasons why they cant be delivered on. In fact after two years, most people cant even remember what the promises were.
I know I find it hard to remember the 1958 promise of “unlimited, clean energy” from hot fusion! But then, what’s 55 years… compared to 2.
Well we got the unlimited energy only it wasn’t quite as clean as we had hoped for.
Also the energy derived from fusion reactions seems to still be only available in bulk wholesale quantities and therefore not much use to the average person. Well, any person really, unless you want to blow another country off the planet.
Basically, Defkalion already have a good deal down in Canada I suppose with all their benefits and the money they have already been given. (????) What happened to moving back to Greece to help out our brothers?
How will their product be able to compete if it wont hit the market in several years?
Would the energy gigants of this world treat Defkalion with the same respect if the situation was to other way around?
Who took this decision?
Have not CF/LENR technology been suppressed for 24 years? It is really appropriate to continue suppressing it?
We would not have iPads or iPhones if Apple would follow the same way or reasoning!
Because these products have also been very disruptive and thousands have lost their jobs.
This is the biggest contradictory I have ever seen:
“Defkalion state that they are now ready to enter the market, however they say “this process will not be immediate but will take several years , as it will allow time for the big players in the energy distribution change their assets and strategies in a non-traumatic in a synergistic way to new technology”
Maybe more concern should be directed towards these millions of people of will freeze, starve and poison themselves on dirty drinking water instead of showing pity to the energy conglomerates.
What is this? The Stockholm Syndrome?
“IF ONE COUNTRY DOES NOT PICK UP ON THIS TECHNOLOGY, THERE IS ALWAYS ANOTHER COUNTRY THAT WILL.”
There is something very fishy going on here….
Or am I missing something?
Well to start with,.. you missed the July 2012 demonstration of the Hyperion reactor.
We all did.
I was wondering what’s happening over at Missouri University with the 5.5 million funding. We heard only about Mark Prelas resuming his 20 year old study. Now I found another hint at the research from a University page, mentioning other scientists. I thought it would be interesting to share with you.
http://mizzouadvantage.missouri.edu/news/project-spotlight-low-energy-nuclear-reactions/
I assume that University of Missouri will have a lot to present at the upcoming ICCF-18
Thanks Gerrit. While the shills and t-rolls search for negative spin, qualified scientists are busy researching LENR, in well equipped laboratory settings:
Shubhra Gangopadhyay is a C.W. LaPierre Endowed Chair Professor in the Electrical and Computer Engineering Department at the University of Missouri as well as co-director of the MU International Center for Nano/Micro Systems and Nanotechnology,
John Gahl is a C.W. LaPierre Professor in the Electrical and Computer Engineering Department at the University of Missouri. He is the director of the Material Science Program at the University of Missouri Research Reactor Center, the largest university-based research reactor in the United States. He is a licensed professional engineer in Missouri.
University of Missouri Associate Professor Scott Kovaleski was appointed as interim chairman of the Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, effective Jan. 1, 2013.Kovaleski’s own research involves nuclear, plasma and beam science. He is currently working on a piezoelectric miniature, low-radiation X-ray device.
Good to see that UM is keeping the topic fresh
The time for DIY solutions simply must come now, as the big players cannot be trusted. We need to find a way in which to distribute the technology (if working) to the general fast and easy (in kits you assemble yourself). I’ve said this before, but it seems increasingly important, if we are ever to see this technology in our homes.
If ‘we’ had the technology we’d be free to do with what we want. Unfortunately…
Isn’t the company called MOSE, not MOSES?
http://www.mose-energy.com/
BTW, here there’s an interview with Luca Gamberale, chief science officier of Defkalion Europe (in Italian):
http://affaritaliani.libero.it/green/fisico-energia-Defkalion-Europe1012013.html
Pekka, or could somebody tell me are we talking true Dogma blowing negative temperatures or as Mr Rossi seems to think that is still impossible.
—–
Atoms Reach Record Temperature, Colder than Absolute Zero
http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=23218
George
I read that a week or so ago.
Seems it was a super tiny fraction difference like couple millionths or whatever.
Absolute Zero may have been redefined.
My thoughts at the time was it may just be a refinement as technology has advanced for finer measurement. But that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong. I sometimes have trouble with their techno babble.
Technically speaking tho, Nothing Can be colder then Absolute Zero.
Omega, yes, very interesting, but as usual finding if it is being excepted, checked or debunked is not so easy.
If one defines temperature from how many particles are in lower and higher energy states, then negative temperature (population inversion as used in lasers) can exist at least transiently. How much sense it makes to define temperature in that way is a question that could be debated. Temperature is a somewhat less fundamental quantity than for example energy or entropy and its definition is not quite self-evident in some situations. If this were a science quiz, Rossi would be wrong, but in the engineering sense his suspicion about such concept is probably not too far off the mark.
http://r36iduo.tumblr.com/post/40635532236/lern
“Defkalion state that they are now ready to enter the market, however they say this process will not be immediate but will take several years”.
Several years is totally unacceptable!!! That is NOT “ready” to enter the market. Why several Years??? No explanation given !! eCat Australia website say’s a 2013 launch.
“As it will allow time for the big players in the energy distribution change their assets and strategies in a non-traumatic in a synergistic way to new technology”…..
Big players??? It’s called Business Risk. If someone goes out of business it’s because their business model was wrong or Outdated. It seem they are buying time with a 2 year delay or they’re still trying to test it / tweak it more.
From direct information I have, they need years because their reactor is not so refined as Rossi’s, so only 1-2 years of research can solve their problems… In detail, their reactor, which uses plasma discharge instead of Rossi’s tecnique for triggering the reaction, has problems in a fundamental phase, starting the internal reactions.
Perhaps they should look into electrodeless microwave plasma discharges. Somewhat similar problems exist in ion engines where electrodeless designs are becoming more and more common due to their intrinsically longer lifetime.
Like Rossi, it may be that DGT have also discovered that the only way they are going to be ‘permitted’ to bring their device to market is if they play ball with the energy cabals and their tame governments. At least Defkalion seem to be reasonably up front with making this clear.
As other players begin to enter the market, exactly the same constraints will probably be observed in each case. TPTB are fully aware that fossil fuels are limited and frequently unstable, and so need the new energy source, but they will ensure that none of their existing investments suffer during the process of introduction, with the possible exception of nuclear power. The costs of dumping nuclear fission will easily be met by the savings in fossil fuel costs that CF will allow, and it is probable that governments will be left with the costs of decommissioning and nuclear waste disposal, as nuclear power stations are hived off as separate free-standing businesses and then allowed to go bankrupt.
The other (unmentioned) factor will be that it will take a while to sort out the legislation that will be put in place to allow governments to tax CF energy in a way that will allow them to progressively replace fossil fuel revenues. This will most probably be in the form of a flat rate levy – i.e., the energy producers will simply pay taxes on the CF energy they generate, pro rata. This rake-off will of course be paid by the consumer as electricity costs mysteriously fail to fall by any significant amount despite the massive fuel cost savings. Of course these imposed costs will be disguised as ‘green’ measures, requiring the ‘global warming’ hoax to be maintained for some time yet, despite being comprehensively shown to be false in almost all respects.
Peter, re Global Warming, It occurs to me that it may be the Sun that has the most effect on our temperatures amongst many other things.
Do we have a comprehensive satellite presence able to measure the sun’s radiation reaching Earth, covering the Earths width so as to not misinterpret anomalous localised blips, and in real time for the last say 100 hundred years to be able to get a fair measurement of the current and past radiation received.
George – There is some satellite solar radiation data, mostly from an orbiter called ‘meteosat’. The variance shown since 1978, when it was launched, confirms short term (11 year sunspot cycle) oscillation as you would expect. Surface based measurements are available but are too unreliable to draw any firm conclusions, due to local weather. Curiously it seems difficult to find any data from 1999 to the present, which if it follows the clear 11-year sinusoidal pattern already observed, would indicate a global cooling period.
I agree that solar radiation variability looks like being the main factor in blips like the ‘medieval warm period’ and other long term variability.
http://orbisvitae.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=60202#Post60202
Admin – I tried to login to the forums area to post this reply, but it’s not accepting the password I have on record, and I am not receiving emails from the ‘lost password’ function. I’ll try re-registering in a moment.
Thanks Peter, will check Forums later.
Just logged into Forums, I think it is particular about who it let’s in. Ha.
I’ll sneak in in a new disguise then!
Peter & George
Some Years ago I discussed with a person(Involved with climate research) about the Earth not being in perfect orbit (At times the earth can be 30K+ miles closer to the Sun), the earth wobble & solar flares & Such effecting average temps.
His answer to me was, “Well it only makes about a (3%) difference in the amount of heat that reaches the Earth”.
I responded that according to what I had come up with that 3% would pretty much cover all their temp variations.
He ceased communication with me. I also had chats with another researcher at McMurdo Station who said the data seemed Backwards. It appeared the temp would rise 1st then CO2 levels would rise. Possibly because the heat caused CO2 release from the oceans & Ice melt among other things. He had tried to present this to his superiors, but they ignored him. He wasn’t allowed an audience to discuss it.
That was shortly before their data breach After which I could no longer access the site.
So to George I would say there are Scientist who want to tell it straight. Those at the top wont let them. They don’t want to lose their funding.
Just like they don’t want LENR- They want the funding for Hot Fusion to keep flowing.
Omega Z, useful comment, do you think you could move it to Forums, I have opened a topic there.
Must keep the purists happy, Ha.
The honest climate scientists are making themselves heard in increasing numbers. It seems that if there is any real ‘consensus’ it is not the one touted by the IPCC.
11-year solar output cycle from satellite data.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/SORCE/
Great summary of the situation and why people will probably never see the true benefits of LENR.
Buying time.
“this process will not be immediate but will take several years , as it will allow time for the big players in the energy distribution change their assets and strategies in a non-traumatic in a synergistic way to new technology”
That’s a handy mechanism when you just can’t see the way forward
Yep, such statements – in the absence of credible demonstrations – should be treated with the derision they deserve.
How do you estimate Nelson report…
Ok it is not great, but between the result, and more important the notice that DGT is cooperative (unlike Rossi was)…
It is hard for me to understand how people hearing the rossi says every day, can be upset by DGT…
Even criticizing rossi they are soft, compared to what Rossi says…
note that yes, unlike Rossi, they have an independent report…
the one of Nelson, that nelson recognized in front of Gibbs… not much, but enough to say that it is controlled LENR.
Their justification for the modest COP, low temperature because liquid water, is logic…
quoted from italian:
>… Il reattore non richiede ricarica per sei mesi di funzionamento continuo…<
it sounds to me as …the reactor doesn't need to be recharged for a period of six months of continuous operation… BUT it should be refueled after that specific time limit, that is the same as for Rossi's E-Cat.
To be noted that MOSES srl (Moses Ltd) is an italian firm located in Milan.
I'm asking why DGT has still the need to put his R&D center in Italy: and what about their location in Canada?
yes….it’s correct.
I can confirm that your translation from the Italian is correct.
Let’s see how the naysayers will classify MOSES srl, whether they are part of the scam or they have been scammed ?
it seems named MOSE SRL…
http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?950-Defkalion-and-Mose-SRL-in-Italy&p=3599#post3599
http://www.mose-energy.com/
anyway maybe I’m wrong…
Why many location? Simple. Certification process is different from one place to the other. Canadian lab will cover the north-american side (CSA and UL) whille the Italian lab will cover the European side (CE). SO, like Rossi, they will have to look for a partner in Asia, South-America and non-European Union country to cover those area.
jym
Ahhh… booo… I want to see the big players crap their drawers.
+1. Too many years we have been financial screwed over by the big players & governments. When will this financial abuse & financial controlling end.
Never, they’ll find other ways.