E-Cat / Green Turbine Connection? [UPDATED -- No connection]

Andrea Rossi gave an interesting response to a JONP reader today regarding a micro generator produced by a Dutch company called Green Turbine.

The reader asked:

Dr. Rossi.in September GreenGen will sel a energy plant for the home.
It will use a 1.5kW Turbine, (the size of a football, on sale now) made by Green Turbine.
It will heat the home, and convert the extra heat to electricity. It will use wood pellets to produce the heat.

My questions are:
1. Can E-Cat be used to produce the heat ?
2. If yes, when will you test it ?

Rossi answered:

1- yes
2- done
About the home apparatuses: we need certification. So far we can manufacture only industrial plants.

The surprising part of this answer was not only that Rossi knows about the product, but apparently he has already tested it. There is nothing in the response that indicates that there is any product in the pipeline, or any business agreement between the two companies, but if testing did indeed take place there is at least the possibility of one.

Here’s some more information about the generator from the Green Turbine web site:

GREEN TURBINETM is a very small (slightly larger than a football) steam driven turbo generator that converts (waste) heat into electricity. This makes the Green Turbine an excellent choice in applications where both heat and electricity is required (combined heat and power). The part of the energy, not converted to electricity, is available for heating or cooling.

Green Turbine powered heaters will enable any homeowner or small business to produce 100% of their heating and hot water needs at a huge savings while generating up to 80% of their electricity needs, free of charge. It will also reduce their CO2 emissions by a staggering 50%.

Green Turbine can use the heat energy from solar thermal boilers to generate electricity. Little ships with Green Turbine have clean emissions. Green Turbine can also be used to extend the range of current hybrid automobiles by 20%.

Presumably there would be similar certification issues to deal with if the Green Turbine generator were powered by E-Cat heat as there is for the now-delayed domestic E-Cat.

I have contacted Green Turbine and asked if they could provide any more information about this testing.

UPDATE: My interpretation was wrong. Here are a couple of comments from AR today regarding the Green Turbine issue:

I understood perfectly the question of Robert Curto, and I answered that we made the tests with the Hot Cat, but we did not test the “Green Turbine” because we did not receive any real proposal for a product to be bought and tested.

Means that we tested the E-Cat. The tests of third party have been done on the Hot Cat. We all are waiting for the publication. We will see the text, I do not even know, so far, where and when exactly the publication will be made. That’s all I can say. We did not test the Green Turbine, but if we receive an offer for a real off-the-shelf product we will surely buy and test one.

  • Peter_Roe

    Ah – sans serif! Much easier on the eye.

    • admin

      I’ve installed a new theme — an upgrade from the old one, and it seems to be working. It seems I have more control now. Hopefully this will be more stable.

      • Peter_Roe

        A great improvement all round – thanks!

        Maybe an auto-backup application for the WordPress database as well…? (unless you can get the web host to set this up externally – my own hosting co. does this automatically every day with no additional charge for the service). Just a suggestion!

      • RenzoB

        thank you Frank, I’m happy now it works

    • http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/12/cold-fusion-a-resurrection-and-an-inconvenient-truth-a-view-from-europe/?replytocom=10913#respond praos

      Ah, sans serif, a torture for eyes.

  • georgehants

    Interesting report in the Guardian but the language has sent it to moderation.
    —–
    The Guardian
    Scientists or politicians – who should you trust most?
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/jan/13/jeff-forshaw-climate-change-science

    • GreenWin

      George, you might find this discussion of the collapse of modern physics intriguing. Start at 3:30 into the video to skip some fluff. Here at least we see a sliver of light – illuminating not an answer, but an admission that we have no idea how to find an answer!

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHHz4mB9GKY

      The student may be ready… :)

      • Chris I

        A rather incompetent video. It is just one example of many silly arguments on the supposed dichotomy between science and religion. It doesn’t even get things straight and it claims to prove that science doesn’t hold up, or something like that.

        Nonsense which does not really belong here.

  • georgehants

    The Guardian
    Scientists or politicians – who should you trust most?
    Well, accusations that scientists are arrogant or, according to journalist Simon Jenkins, in the business of making a religion out of science, are not uncommon. For journalist Brendan O’Neill, the scientific panel of “know it all” experts surrounding government is “little different to the Guardian Council in Iran”. The key criticism appears to concern the issue of democracy and the notion of choice. In O’Neill’s words, people should be “fully free to make a choice, unencumbered by the hectorings of do-gooders”. It is the removal of this choice by a scientific “priesthood” that Jenkins and O’Neill seem to find so repulsive.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/jan/13/jeff-forshaw-climate-change-science

  • georgehants

    Andrea Rossi
    January 13th, 2013 at 3:25 AM
    Dear Giuseppe:
    Yes, we are working on the issue to make electric power, and we are going toward the classic Carnot cycle. We have many other technologies under focus. The power we are interested to for immediate application is 500-1000 kW.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • georgehants

    Andrea Rossi
    January 13th, 2013 at 3:22 AM
    Dear Vladimir:
    We received yesterday the interesting offer from Green Turbine. As a matter of fact, it is a device with a power around 1.5 kW . We are manufacturing 1 MW plants and we are working on this power level ( 500-1000 kW). As for the domestic E-Cats, this device can be useful, with adaptations, and we will make tests with it, pending the certification issue.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • artefact

      Hehe. Admins mail to Green Turbine may have helped :)

      • captain

        For sure, eh eh eh ;-)

        • daniel maris

          No doubt Green Turbine will have to sign one of those NDAs…

          • Omega Z

            As this Turbine is a beta test, they may require a NDA from their side also.

    • Omega Z

      george

      As artefact says, Admin- contact may have had a hand in this. The Timing is right & they are also looking for market adapters for their beta version.

  • timycelyn

    A couple of overnight posts on Rossi’s blog shed some further light on his developing plans in this area. The first one is a confirmation of that which we already know, the main thrust of their current hot cat/Carnot cycle work:

    “Dear Giuseppe:
    Yes, we are working on the issue to make electric power, and we are going toward the classic Carnot cycle. We have many other technologies under focus. The power we are interested to for immediate application is 500-1000 kW.”

    However, Green Turbine must have been in contact with them in the last day or two, possibly prompted by the discussion here, so we also have:

    “Dear Vladimir:
    We received yesterday the interesting offer from Green Turbine. As a matter of fact, it is a device with a power around 1.5 kW . We are manufacturing 1 MW plants and we are working on this power level ( 500-1000 kW). As for the domestic E-Cats, this device can be useful, with adaptations, and we will make tests with it, pending the certification issue.”

    Its interesting to see him actually mention the domestic e-cats, and suggest they might be a match for the Green Turbine. True, the certification issue, and all the shadowy TPTB and control issues that lurk behind it, is still there, but it is encouraging that Rossi makes the connection between the two devices and indicates an intent to look into it.

    So maybe, 5-10 year time frame, small CHP kit might be available, or only possible… [Cue debate on the Forces of Darkness...]

    • georgehants

      Sorry timycelyn, your post has appeared from somewhere and I have repeated above.

      • timycelyn

        No problem George! Guess we both do the same thing on Sunday morning :-)

        Tim

  • georgehants

    So there is no such thing as a conspiracy to distort by science.
    Why do scientists allow these things to happen.

  • Björn

    Andrea Rossi
    January 13th, 2013 at 3:25 AM
    Dear Giuseppe:
    Yes, we are working on the issue to make electric power, and we are going toward the classic Carnot cycle. We have many other technologies under focus. The power we are interested to for immediate application is 500-1000 kW.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    Andrea Rossi
    January 13th, 2013 at 3:22 AM
    Dear Vladimir:
    We received yesterday the interesting offer from Green Turbine. As a matter of fact, it is a device with a power around 1.5 kW . We are manufacturing 1 MW plants and we are working on this power level ( 500-1000 kW). As for the domestic E-Cats, this device can be useful, with adaptations, and we will make tests with it, pending the certification issue.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • georgehants

      Bjorn, sorry as well I am sure yours and timycelyn’s posts where not there when I repeated above.
      Must be that old red wine again.

  • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

    The two cells in the US are on a LIVE active run. 14 Layer and 2 Layer Celani wires (the latter is the same as that used by ST Microelectronics) as ever we have no idea what to expect, especially as this is the first live run of cells in vertical orientation.

    We will be posting a new OpenOffice / LibreOffice spreadsheet tool that has the calibrations embedded and pulls down the LIVE current data and indicates any potential excess heat.

    Wish us luck!

    • georgehants

      Bob, certainly all the luck in the World.

  • stuey

    i came across this when looking for an old 1990`s era super soaker from my childhood, thought it might be worth a mention, article is 3yrs old but refers to a solid state engine with no moving parts that converts heat to electricty at efficent levels, something called the ericson cycle? – from the inventor or the super soaker who btw is a brilliant man – stuey

    http://www.parc.com/event/713/high-efficiency-solid-state-engine.html

    • Bruno

      I’ve been following Lonnie Johnson for several years. His JTEC (Johnson Thermo-Electric Converter) is a brilliant idea. I think that its only current limitation is materials. Not sure if he has found a proton membrane that can operate at the high temperature needed for real thermodynamic efficiency.If he can nail the material science piece, the JTEC will be a game changer that can be used to efficiently convert heat from any ssource to electricity. Assuming that Rossi’s e-cat works (and I’m become more and more skeptical as time goes by), the JTEC and the e-cat would be a match made in heaven.

      • http://none Kurt

        Hi there, would it be helpful, to have a material allowing 1600 degrees celsius and almost as hard as diamant? If so, let me know and I will help you immediately, best regards, Kurt

  • GreenWin

    Not to go off topic but since we have some posts on the Discovery Communications LLC “Science” HowStuffWorks hitpiece on LENR – we have a good opportunity to see how science publishing works here in the United States.

    When it comes to publishing anything about cold fusion or LENR – it is the bound duty of the ultra-conservative American Physical Society to oppose it. Not just oppose it – but debunk, deny, delay and defile anything that might inform the public of the truth of the matter. Why this is so deeply invested by the APS? – we cannot say. But it seems plausible APS is in reach of many influential energy cartels, corporations, and politicos who like ‘Mericans who like the status quo!

    But here’s the fascinating thing about the APS – they’re not that good at hiding their mischievous ways. So they assign one of their members who sits on their public opinion “informing” committee, to pretend to be a disinterested, freelance science writer: Jennifer Ouellette. For some reason Jennifer never mentions she’s been on staff at APS for years. Or that she is a sitting member of the “Committee on Informing the Public.”

    BUT… there you have it. Ms. Ouellette is a paid informer working for the American Physical Society. Here is the evidence: http://www.aps.org/about/governance/committees/cip/

    • Karl
    • Karl

      GW – I gather this is an important finding. How can such a prestige science organisation be part of such obvious dirty and poorly based anti science and anti Cold Fusion research activity? To me it seems more like a sign of desperation.

    • Peter_Roe

      Thanks GW – it’s always useful to know a bit more about exactly who is engaged in propagating anti-CF disinformation.

      The ‘why’ is a bit more difficult to fathom though, unless there is still a real intention by someone to make Rossi’s devices disappear quietly into the corporate/military abyss. If this is not the case then presumably a working example must emerge in the near future, and no amount of negative crap from the likes of Ms Oulette will make any difference.

    • georgehants

      So there is no such thing as a conspiracy to defraud by science.
      Why do scientists allow these things to happen.

    • georgehants

      So there is no such thing as a conspiracy to distort by science.
      Why do scientists allow these things to happen.

      • Peter_Roe

        Morning George. The thing that worries me is, if a public announcement about a test/pilot plant in imminent, why are bodies like the APS engaging in this kind of dirty tactic? The moment a working device is ‘unveiled’, not only will the intent to misinform be obvious, but the sponsors of the disinfo will be easy to trace, as GreenWin has done in this case.

        Spreading this kind of garbage only seems to make sense if the perpetrators (a) know that the ‘hot cat’ is real and (b) do not expect it to emerge into the public gaze. If they didn’t know it was real there would be no need for misinformation. If they expected a ‘launch’ within a few weeks they wouldn’t expose their agenda in this way.

        • georgehants

          Peter, I am even after many years of life experience bemused by the scientific situation.
          I for many years have kept up at a distance with the Quantum etc. and investigated rather deeply the history of science.
          Only since the advent of Cold Fusion (Rossi) have I become so acutely aware of the certainly corrupt and incompetent modern situation.
          As each day goes by and more Evidence accumulates of the self-seeking irrationality of science and people in general it can become most upsetting.
          Science and Life must I think start to follow the only things that can recover some semblance of sanity
          — Evidence and Truth.
          We must all learn to laugh at opinion givers beyond fair reasoned and responsible use of clear Evidence and regain the sort of scientific Wonder and brilliance of the Quantum seekers from 1900 to 1950 then being unable to except the clear meaning of the Quantum, science beyond weapons and profit moved again into the dark ages.

        • http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php AlainCo

          Your reasoning assume some rationality about the results.
          the model of Roland Benabou is that people mostly optimise, not the result, but their perceived wealth…
          http://www.aeroscraft.com/#/commercial/4565225592
          they can decide to ignore fact to hide the evidence that they will be ruined/ridiculed… even if it increase their chance to be.
          http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers/Patterns%20of%20Denial%204l%20fin.pdf

          moreover when evidence start to be so clear that some dissenters appear, there is a strong motive to punish the dissenters to avoid the truth to spread…
          the nearer the truth, the more violent the critics… believers will have more and more incentive to protect from reality.

          • Peter_Roe

            It’s hard to accept that supposedly intelligent people in positions of authority could behave so completely irrationally that it would border on insanity… but you could be right.

            • GreenWin

              Alain’s “Pattern of Denial” document is very instructive in viewing institutional thinking. They paint themselves into a corner with patterns of hubris and expertise. That done, they cannot summon the moral strength to admit wrong. Very sad from such intelligent people.

              • http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php AlainCo

                even stupid, or layman, poor, or rich people get locked the same.

                It is a human factor. Best way to avoid this denial is not to fall in it’s triggering factor: having something to lose.

                It give a hint to detect people not delusioned: those not depending on believers, not having invested in the delusion, not hoping from the delusion or the delusioned…

                this is why in the old time it was young that were breaking the delusion… today young are slave of funding and peer-review. only tenured, retired, fringe scientists can have nothing to lose or win.

                note that when i say win, in fact what is protected is the illusion to have won… people are stupid enough to aggravate their situation, just not to see they were wrong…

        • GreenWin

          This is how once-towering institutions rot from within and begin the long fall from grace:

          “So I think APS has to be a voice for science. Our nation has big problems, for example energy and climate, and science is the key to solving these problems. APS has played a role in providing the best scientific advice to the public and to the government, and that’s even more important now.” Michael Turner PhD, President, American Physical Society, January 2013

          • Peter_Roe

            Scary, in view of their behaviour regarding CF.

            • GreenWin

              Odd though Peter, I feel a good cleansing may result from all this. The public will discover the “forked tongue” cadre in once-revered institutions; they will get angry, demand reform, and clean house.

              It may be that only a small, overly powerful faction in APS is trying to silence LENR – a few bad apples tainting the barrel.

              In any case I prefer to see it as cathartic – singling out the rot, invigorating the healthy.

              It certainly sells popcorn!

              • Peter_Roe

                As you say, probably ‘just’ rot at the core rather than throughout – but whoever they are they must have access to the combination for the safe, in order to fund Ouellette and any other presstitutes they use.

                I hope there is a reckoning, but somehow I suspect that history will be rewritten to protect the guilty, and they will all live happily ever after.

                My wife likes ‘whodunnits’, but she steadfastly refuses to take any interest in this much more perplexing tale with so many twists and turns it makes your head spin, AND has new episodes most days! She doesn’t know what she’s missing.

                • GreenWin

                  HA! “Presstitutes.” An excellent coinage, Peter. I can imagine great newsmen of Rupert Murdoch’s stature are intimately familiar. Proof that one can write drivel, lying down.

  • robyn wyrick

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130111092719.htm

    I read this last night, and was intrigued. Considering that LENR produces energy in the form of heat – this story describes a potential advance in thermoelectric conversion using a new material, “thermocrystals”.

    Very cool.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      robyn wyrick….thanks for article, with the e-cat and this kind of engineered materials, thermoelectric seems like a “natural”.

      • Omega Z

        Bernie

        Stuey above posted about research above. It Involves Lonnie Johnson of super soaker fame. He Started J-Tec Research.

        They’re working on a couple things that may work well with E-cats.
        1 is a thermal engine with possibilities of 50% H to E conversion. It’s similar to a Fuel Cell in theory.
        A 2nd is a Lithium Air battery half the size, weight, & cost of existing Lithium Ion batteries but with about 10 times the storage capacity.

        Both are still R&D but look very promising. What I like about them is No Moving Parts which usually means longevity.

  • georgehants

    US Department of Homeland Security advises disabling Java following fresh zero-day vulnerability
    http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/12/3867332/department-of-homeland-security-disable-java

    • GreenWin

      Thanks George. For those on Windows platforms with Microsoft Security Essentials (default antivirus) enabled, the Exploit/Java CVE 2012 virus was detected and quarantined on Jan 7th, 2013 on my system. You may have to manually delete via MSE the quarantined file.

  • georgehants

    Could starships use cold fusion propulsion?
    by Jennifer Ouellette
    Voyager 1 is now leaving solar system, making it the first manmade probe to enter interstellar space. That’s quite an achievement, and it only took 30+ years. But if we’re going to get serious about boldly going where no man has gone before, and send humans beyond the solar system, we’re gonna need a cheap and plentiful energy source to help us get there.
    http://science.howstuffworks.com/starships-use-cold-fusion-propulsion.htm#mkcpgn=rssnws1

    • Peter_Roe

      More disinformation from this establishment shill. Fascinating that in this new offering Ms Ouellete even recycles the following from her dismissive Scientific American piece, ‘Genie in a Bottle: The Case Against Cold Fusion’ (now ‘updated’ to remove some of the more actionable defamation of McKubre and Hagelstein):

      “If only we could achieve fusion at room temperatures! That’s the claim of proponents of so-called “cold fusion,” a field that has languished on the fringe since its alleged discovery almost 20 years ago. Back in 2000, TIME magazine listed cold fusion as one of the “worst ideas” of the 20th century.

      “Prevailing scientific opinion is still that the vast majority of cold fusion research falls under the rubric of “pathological science”: the results are always on the verge of a stunning validation. Whenever said validation fails (again) to materialize, there is always a handy rationale for why it isn’t really a definitive failure — and why the naysayers are just closed-minded tools of the scientific establishment, conspiring to keep these unsung geniuses down.”

      With barely a pause she then hacks into Rossi, repeating all the usual slurs so familiar to (ex) ecat news readers (no peer review, sketchy patent app, Petroldragon fiasco, etc. etc.) and has a go at ‘believers’, before concluding “So if you’re hoping cold fusion will be the answer to powering an interstellar mission, you’re in for a very long wait.” Well what a surprise.

      • georgehants

        Morning Peter, have found a good report below on —
        How to Treat Heat Like Light: New Approach Using Nanoparticle Alloys Allows Heat to Be Focused or Reflected Just Like Electromagnetic Waves.

        is caught in moderation at mo.

      • Karl

        The quality of her last article was so poor that one may wonder if she is paid by certain interest to make less informed people be unaware of the emergence of a game changer for the time being? To survive, the leaders in industry and finance may need to take actions and prepare. They are likely to do so long before the stubborn attitude towards LENR from the main stream science community which may require a generation shift. http://www.decisionstrategies.com/news/LENR

        • Peter_Roe

          It’s just a simple bait and switch piece. Readers hoping to learn about CF and its possible application in space travel are instead ‘educated’ by a blatant hatchet job aimed mainly at Rossi.

          • Fibb

            yes. typical hit piece that is so common nowadays.

            • GreenWin

              Gents, please see my post above re: Ouellette’s real job as a public dis-informer for the American Physical Society. This is the APS at its finest – terrified the world will discover their abject incompetence with regard to LENR.

    • artefact
      • Gerrit

        Some of us are here mainly for Rossi news, but I assume that many readers also want to look at the scientific side of LENR.

        For those, this response to Ouellette’s piece by Abd ul-Rahman Lomax is a must read !

        It completely explains the “wicked” situation the cold fusion / LENR research community has had to deal with.

        It is a long response, but if you really want to understand what cold fusion is all about, then it is not too long to read.

      • GreenWin

        Lomax goes to much length to address the purported author of a starship “HowStuffWorks” article by J Ouellette. Clearly an exercise in futility as Ms. Ouellette’s most convincing contribution to Discovery is her well informed article on “Face Steaming Basics.”

        http://www.jenniferouellette.com

      • Gerrit

        one more about Ouellette’s motives. She can’t be ignorant, she is deliberately misinforming. Here is why:

        In the book “13 Things That Don’t Make Sense” by Michael Brooks chapter 4 deals with cold fusion and it paints a pretty positive picture about what happened back in 1989, clearly highlighting that Melvin Miles had reproduced Fleischmann-Pons in 1990 and again a few years later.

        On http://www.michaelbrooks.org/books.html miss Ouellette writes a review about this book: “Entertaining and often provocative … This elegantly written, meticulously researched and thought-provoking book provides a window into how science actually works, and is sure to spur intense debate.”
        Jennifer Ouellette, New Scientist

        She has read the book and she knows about Miles’ replication.

        Yet she prefers to repeat lies in her articles. Howstuffworks, indeed.

        • http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php AlainCo

          she, like the mainstream lords, is probably in what we call clivage in Frenche… split state… see the story gathered by Roland Beabou to justify his model :
          http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers/Patterns%20of%20Denial%204l%20fin.pdf

          Enron boss finished ruined and jailed, after frauding to hide his losses, but keeping sincerely his shares, still believing he was right, yet hiding he was wrong…

          Mainstream GroupThink collective delusion as described by Roland benabou make that people sincerely believe in their delusion, while evoiding facts as if they were perfectly understanding that the fact were dangerous…

          the fact is aggravated in organisation because people can understand quickly that they cannor avoid the losses, because of the colleagues still in delusion.
          moreover as the paper explain, subordinates, despite they can have better data, wille prefer to live in delusion not to realize that their boss is ruining them.

  • georgehants

    Science News
    … from universities, journals, and other research organizations
    How to Treat Heat Like Light: New Approach Using Nanoparticle Alloys Allows Heat to Be Focused or Reflected Just Like Electromagnetic Waves
    These thermocrystals might have a wide range of applications, he suggests, including in improved thermoelectric devices, which convert differences of temperature into electricity. Such devices transmit electricity freely while strictly controlling the flow of heat — tasks that the thermocrystals could accomplish very effectively, Maldovan says.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130111092719.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Fmatter_energy%2Fchemistry+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Matter+%26+Energy+News+–+Chemistry%29

    • georgehants

      Moderate please Admin

  • Omega Z

    Checked Rossi’s blog. Reread some of it.

    I don’t think he tested the Green Turbine.

    I think his response was mis-interrupted.
    It could mean he checked out their Web Site. Nothing Else.
    Notice that Robert Curto made 2 posts within 5 minutes of each other. Then Rossi responded.

    • Björn

      Fibb
      January 11th, 2013 at 10:02 PM
      Dear Ing. Rossi,

      when you said “done” to the question “when will you test it?” below did you mean you tested the green turbine or just tested the ecat?

      Thanks for clarifying.

      Andrea Rossi
      January 12th, 2013 at 2:45 AM
      Dear Fibb:
      Means that we tested the E-Cat. The tests of third party have been done on the Hot Cat. We all are waiting for the publication. We will see the text, I do not even know, so far, where and when exactly the publication will be made. That’s all I can say. We did not test the Green Turbine, but if we receive an offer for a real off-the-shelf product we will surely buy and test one.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

  • Omega Z

    Don’t go crazy here.
    1.5Kw

    Tho this would make the E-cat cheaper to operate, It’s not enough to operate the E-cat alone which would require 1.66666Kw. If I recall it requires like 2.7?Kw to fire it up.

    If Rossi has tested it which “Rossi speak” can be tricky, It would only be proof of concept.

    Just trying to keep this real guys & gals.

    I’ve checked into these home systems & most aren’t cheap. Is there a price on these Green Turbines.

    I would add that I recall these were mentioned to Rossi a Long Time back, So it’s possible he has tested it. Not necessarily with their knowledge.

    • clovis

      Hi, ya’ll
      Heck i understood Mr, Rossi the first time, guess i’m getting use to his lengo, he just said he has tested the home unit,and that ment that he had the unit all ready to go into producting all testing was over, but then he could not get it certifided and it would be my idea that they already had a semiens generator on board, and tested,– but i could be wrong.

  • V.p.S.

    Rossi answered on his blog that the order of applicability of industrial E-Cat usage scenarios would be:

    1. Production of heat for industrial purposes in individual factories.
    2. Production of heat for local distribution at community level.
    3. Production of electricity for industrial purposes in individual factories.
    4. Production of electricity for local distribution at community level.
    5. Production of electricity in centralised locations for grid distribution.

    I think it shows very precisely what he meant by evolution vs. revolution of the E-Cat technology. Heat production on the industrial and local community level would be the first step towards the acceptance and adoption of his technology. This would allow to gradually push down the heating price and slowly start to replace oil and gas as energy source for heating. Then the same process happens with the electricity production further reducing the role of fossil fuels in energy production. This is a realistic way how the technology can be successfully introduced to the market, step by step taking down the power of Big Oil / Gas / Coal industry, bringing not a revolution, but an evolution.

    As for the home e-cat, I doubt that it will hit the market en masse quickly, completely circumventing all large electricity producers and public power grid operators and eventually governments getting vast amount of taxes from the first two. I believe this will be still something people will have to fight for, the dream of independency of each individual person from the system. But with the fusion technology we may be well on the way there.

    • GreenWin

      Yes, V.p.S. “evolution” is far more diplomatic. Yet, since LENR is a relatively low-tech system, we will certainly see after-black-secondary markets selling home e-cat genset plans and components. hey, why not? Heathkit sold a color TV and Steve Jobs sold the home brew Apple Computer when far bigger brands were available.

      Sure, everyone will get a crack at LENR business – except those without vision or desire for a better world.

    • Peter_Roe

      Although logical, Rossi’s order of introduction implies that even CF local power generators are further down the road than many of us had hoped. The introduction of a new, clean source of power that the world so desperately needs, is apparently to be managed in such a slow and careful way that it could be at the very least many years, perhaps decades, before the first CF powered grid generator goes on line.

      Even assuming that 1. and 2. refer to the LT e-cat, it is clear that the intention is to initially sell only relatively small ‘hot cat’ generators for use in factories and similar, and of course this phase will have little or no impact on the cost of power to households, or on fuel supply instability/dependancy, air pollution levels or even on nuclear ‘new build’. Even this limited market might keep Rossi’s partner at full stretch for a decade, and it begins to look doubtful whether the promise of cold fusion will be even partly realised within the lifetimes of many of the older contributors to this blog.

      In other words we are now seeing the type of ‘roll out’ that some of us feared and predicted – not a worldwide regeneration as energy becomes freely and cheaply available to everyone, but a slow and totally controlled process of integration (Rossi’s word) designed to protect the interests of TPTB and to simply add the profits from cold fusion to the existing tide of money flowing to them.

      • Freethinker

        Yes.

        Being one of the “some of us”, I fear you are right.

        One could hope for competition helping in accelerating matters, as GreenWin hints. If there emerge a Steve Jobs of LENR tech, things may go fast (well, if you argue AR is one, you need another for the competition). But when extrapolating into the future you cannot count on a Steve to come and save the day.

        • Peter_Roe

          Despite the apparent simplicity of the technology it is still clearly taking some time and a lot of money for each ‘contender’ (Rossi, DGT, Brillouin and possibly one or two others at the moment) to get their first products to market. This allows plenty of time for agents of the energy cabals and banks to insinuate themselves in the process and to subvert it in one way or another.

          If it was possible to sling some nickel powder and a hydrogen source into a tube and to make virtually unlimited energy, others would have done this by now. Clearly it is not so simple, and any dreams of backyard inventors flooding the market with their creations is fantasy. Even if this had proved to be possible, they would in any case have been swatted like flies as they emerged, in order to protect the status quo.

          • http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php AlainCo

            sadly we will probably reach the usual delay to put an innovation to market of 5 years…LENR+ started in 2010 with rossi… expect 2015 for first normal sales.

            • sparks

              Yes, in fact, my bet has always been (since mid-2011) 2016 for first sales, best case.

          • captain

            Hi Peter, write Rossi but think to http://www.babcock.com/

            The game can be different, very different.

            Write Essen and Kullander, but think to swedish nuclear power plants.

            The thinking head is still Rossi, but B&W is playing the cards: the sooner, the better!

            All what above IMHO ;-)

            • captain

              And Rossi’s business cards should be B&W, NI, Siemens (later on, at least).

              What to do with such a business card?
              Ask USPTO and UL :-(

              All what above IMHO, eh eh eh

      • NJT

        Yes Peter it now appears you are right on this. Everyone has their price point and someone(s) has found Rossi’s. Very good for Rossi and his new friends, but too bad for the world – a big disappointment, at least from my standpoint. We can now only hope for some other LENR White Knight developer to hopefully rescue mankind…

        • Peter_Roe

          NJT – I tried to reply, but it just went straight to the spam bin as far as I can tell. The upshot was – agreed, the best hope seems to be that other large concerns (difficult to swat) are working on CF in secrecy and will emerge in due course.

          I’m afraid that my expectations of any public disclosure (or of any other significant development) during February are steadily dwindling. The tenor of Rossi’s comments on JONP just doesn’t seem to match the excitement you might expect if this were the case. If anything there seems to be a downplay of expectations going on, mixed with a lot of vague hints about ‘possibilities’.

          I get an impression more of someone twiddling their thumbs than of someone who is about to be publicly vindicated, and who expects to see their dreams realised in just a few weeks time.

    • clovis

      VPS
      i totaly agree, and we may see an affortible home unit, from china or others pretty soon after the big units hit the market,

  • Fibb

    Wake up people. There is no way Rossi meant he tested the Green turbine when he said “done”

    from http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=776#comments

    My questions [to Rossi] are:
    1. Can E-Cat be used to produce the heat ?
    2. If yes, when will you test it ?

    Rossi Answered:
    1- yes
    2- done

    Unless the guy asking is a total illiterate boob, when he said, “when will you test “it””? “it” should equal “e-cat.”

    But I will ask for clarification.

    • dominik

      you 100% right … I can’t even imagine how anybody would think that Rossi is not speaking about his e-cat but some turbine …

      • http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/12/cold-fusion-a-resurrection-and-an-inconvenient-truth-a-view-from-europe/?replytocom=10913#respond praos

        Well, I am this someone.
        1. Can E-Cat be used to produce the heat ? (i.e. for the Green turbine)
        2. If yes, when will you test it ? (i.e. producing heat for the Green turbine)
        Otherwise you must suppose that Rossi and his correspondent are complete idiots, one not knowing till now that eCat produces heat, and another seriously answering such stupid question. With the Green turbine having nothing to do with the questions, being mentioned just for the fun of it. Stupid.

        • KD

          But as in above article is stated.
          >>>>>>in September GreenGen will sel a energy plant for the home.<<<<<<

          "SEPTEMBER".
          That mean they don't have "the turbine", yet for sale now"

          They have it, in developing stage now.
          The same way, as Rossi have his E-Cat. He cleary said.
          That new hot E-Cat reactor will be delivered to customer in February/March

          Also Rossi stated that he did not received offer of ready to buy turbine.
          It mean. He did not tested.
          He can not test if the turbine is not ready for it.

  • GreenWin

    Interesting that this past July the omniscient Forbes magazine published an article about the United Kingdom’s enthusiasm for micro-CHP:

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/williampentland/2012/07/20/micro-chp-gets-boost-in-great-britain/

    Of course no mention of the most viable heat source being… LENR. But this does prove UK’s Greg Barker (Minister of… “Energy and Climate” 1.) is at least aware of the vastly improved efficiency of distributed CHP vs. centralized grid power.

    Should Forbes Contributor Bill Pentland and Greg begin to grok the potential of LENR – they will quake with enthusiasm! Alas, one can only lead them to the trough.

    1. Is it only Anglo Saxons that feel they are omnipotent enough to actually Ad-Minister the planet’s climate?

    • Invy

      Yes, we anglos often have inflated egos and or a god complex…

      We also often get humbled by mother nature.

    • Peter_Roe

      1. – And to try to con their people into paying through the nose for 20% ‘renewables’ (the term rather laughably includes nuclear fission) by 2020, to help ‘save the planet’. The cost borne by consumers will be about 2 billion pounds a year, with an at least similar sum to be carried by industry in the form of additional fuel taxes and ‘carbon credits’.

      All this to cut the UK’s 2% contribution to world ‘carbon emissions’ that have an effect so small that ‘insignificant’ doesn’t begin to cover it. Even the BBC (long time propagandists for ‘global warming’) are now wavering on many fronts, and even beginning to talk about CO2 delaying the next ice age – i.e., being a Good Thing!

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16439807

      Personally I’m still seething about losing cheap, clean incandescent bulbs at the whim of m*ronic politicians and having to buy dim, mercury-filled, flickering ‘compact fluorescents’ that don’t seem to last much longer than a filament bulb.

      OK, enough. Sorry about the rant – I’ve just about had this ‘AGW’ and ‘carbon emissions’ nonsense up to the eyeballs.

      • timycelyn

        Hi Peter, Happy New Year!

        Re your point on offsetting the next ice age. It is a fact that the planet spends most of it’s time in ice ages, with only rather brief inter-glacial periods, one of which we have been enjoying for some time now. Without going back to the detailed texts, I seem to remember this is down to a complex mixture of various aspects of orbital behavior, precession, and so on.

        How quickly the planet slides into an ice age, and how long it then lasts even when the underlying orbital effects are moving into the next phase, is then strongly affected by albedo.

        Anthropogenic greenhouse warming (ie man made emissions)alters -to some extent – planetary albedo, by marginally altering the Earth’s re-radiative balance with incoming radiation.

        As I understand it, the basic problem is that our modelling is getting better and better, but it still struggles to forecast the onset of the next ice age, which must be due soon, surely? It could well turn out to be the case that enhanced man-made global warming is JUST what is needed to stave off an ice age that we certainly do not want. The key trick, of course, is to allow just the right amount of man-made global warming to achieve this effect, to neatly offset the reduced incident energy from the sun.

        At the moment we seem to have one school of thought that assumes no ice age is imminent, therefore we have to clamp down or suffer all the projected problems or warming, and the other that tends to rubbish the whole idea (sounds suspiciously like very human and very ostrich-like behavior to me). I have not often heard the second school say “Whoa. Let’s focus on understanding the underlying ice age cycle, and THEN decide what we’re going to do about man-made emissions of CO2.” It might be that we ought to increase them!

        Of course, this approach might be good to keep an ice-age at bay, but all hell would break loose, long in the future from here, when we came to what would be the next normal inter-glacial period. We would have built up a load of manmade greenhouse gases in the atmosphere that would then cause temperatures to rise too far.

        So, I guess my basic points are:

        1. We should understand the interaction between anthropogenic greenhouse warming and ice ages before we try and fix things and instead “Improve them worse”.

        2. Low/no carbon energy technologies, with LENR a likely medium term leader, certainly would help reduce man made greenhouse gas emissions.

        3. Depending on our understanding of 1. above, this may prove to be a good or bad thing.

        4. LENR will happen anyway, because of its endless and manifest benefits. However,I could imagine maybe 100 years from now a programme to emit potent global warmers (eg SF6, HFC refrigerants, more methane from rotting biomass and cattle, etc) as part of a balancing, a titrating, of the Earth’s climate that will them be much more fully understood. This would mitigate or avert a forecast ice-age, and as these gases all have different atmospheric half-lives, a mix could be chosen to fit the forecast need until the planet approaches then next naturally occurring warm period.

        On the more immediate point, I’ve had it up to here with those stupid minaturised fluorescent things. But LED array bulbs are coming on fast and I’m becoming pretty impressed by them! We’ve converted ‘Spey’s headlight (got fed up with tungsten filament being vibrated to death), and I’m now slowly replacing all the GU10 bulbs I have in the house, and am pretty happy with the result….

        • Peter_Roe

          Hi Tim. Do I detect a slightly ironic edge to the ‘Happy new year’!

          Re your summary points 1. and 4. I think that this is already in hand, for better or for worse. Google ‘chemtrails’ and ‘geoengineering’ and even filtering out the more ‘imaginative’ notions you are still left with plenty of indication that planetary albedo management using aluminium oxide and other chemicals dispensed by military and contractor tanker aircraft has been covertly under way for a dozen years or more.

          Regarding boat headlights, several years ago I adapted my nineteen-fifties ex-lorry ‘Roadmaster’ headlight to house a car-type quartz halogen tubular spotlight bulb, which has never needed replacing. However our Lister 2 cylinder probably doesn’t produce a fraction of the vibration of a bollie, so the bulb has a much easier life anyway!

          • timycelyn

            No irony, Peter! Off topic, our headlight problem got a LOT worse when we mounted an ex BR Brush type 56 air horn around 1 foot from the lamp. This the quartz halogen bulbs DID NOT like! Lifetime around 10 seconds, cold…

            LEDS, just fine….

            • Peter_Roe

              Yes, that would definitely explain why your headlight was not not lasting long!

              A belated Happy New Year to you too.

  • Zaghlool

    Well, Andrea Rossi wants to hide the secrets of the E-Cat (the First and the only so far application for Cold Fusion Phenomena) away from the pubic’s eyes.
    He wants to keep the secret safe as long as he can.

    • daniel maris

      Speak for yourself. My pubics have no eyes. :)

      • Zaghlool

        Sorry Daniel, I mean publics not pubics – and sure you are one of them.
        I believe the website spelling tool “ABC” is not working probably.

        • georgehants

          Ha. :)

    • Zaghlool

      That is why you will not see the domestic-house version of E-Cat in the market in the present time or even in near future.
      Be patient.

  • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

    @All

    Whilst the modified EU cell (now in Switzerland) is undergoing pressure teting and calibration. Not 1 but 2 cells with Celani wire are charged with Hydrogen and getting ready to load the wire. Active run as early as tomorrow. Get out your critical eye!

    • Jorge

      Hi Bob,
      sorry for the newbie question, but what exactly means ‘loading the wire’ ? Is it putting it under power ?

      Regards,
      Jorge

      • Invy

        ‘loading the wire’ = exposing the wire to a hydrogen source (in this case hydrogen gas) so that the surface of the metal lattice is infused with the gas molecules… usually the gas can only penetrate 50 nanometers

        • rolando

          Molecules (H2) or atoms (H+)?

          • Invy

            I do not know. I presume H2.

          • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

            @Rolando

            Mono atomic – the wire splits it as one of its properties and the 1H (protium) gets concentrated in the metals crystal/alloy nano structure to form a form of condensed matter.

    • clovis

      Thanks Bob

  • Hal

    Had a quote from green turbine a while back… including the generator about €6,600 + necessary inverters etc to connect to house supply :(
    for such a small generator I don’t think it would be worthwhile, 3-4 kw yes.
    I don’t know if Rossi has tested it yet, he was only asked this a few weeks ago and he hadn’t at that time had a sample to test.

  • http://www.coprinf.com.ar Pachu

    Its a suspicius question:

    “when will you test it” assumes it would do it, and he did ??

  • Lu

    I think OP’s interpretation of Rossi’s response is the reasonable one. It would be nice to get confirmation, which the OP has already attempted.

    Rossi has mentioned this turbine before (July 31st, 2011 at 12:33 PM). Remember that this was well before the E-Cat higher temperatures being claimed today:

    Dear T Hilleshiem:
    Very interesting. Yes, we are studying the Green Turbine tech and it is a candidate. We have understood so far that we have to put in series the cats to reach 200 C to make electric power with 33% of efficiency, and we will do this. To reach tis T we need 4 E-Cat in series, we are alreading testing this. In this situation we need constantly the drive, while without series, but only parallel we can go without drive.
    About your second question, yes it is possible.
    Stay in contact, in end October I wnnt to see you at the 1 MW plant, so we will reason together on what you said.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • GreenWin

      Thanks Lu. This appears to answer questions re testing the Green Turbine with some form of e-cat.

      • clovis

        yep ,
        Thanks LU, i should start reading form the bottom up, i would learn more,–smile

    • Lu

      Update: Well as it turns out based on Rossi’s respones, Rossi never did testing with the Green Turbine but he sure gave the impression that he did. This is why I do not trust anything that Rossi says and seek independent verification–which by the way we are still waiting for just about all of his claims. Frustrating to say the least.

  • GreenWin

    However this is precisely the type of product the e-cat can match to to produce viable Combined Heat and Power. I would not be surprised if AR had tested units like the Energent MicroSteam Turbine (Carrier) that produces 275kWe 480V 60hz 3 phase from 125-30psig with the Hot-Cat steam flow.

    http://www.energent.net/Technology/Microsteam-Turbine.html

    There are lots of combination boiler/turbine systems the e-cat can match to for industrial use (100kWe-1MWe.) As he has repeatedly pointed out, the home e-cat must navigate the certification obstacle path. Most likely delayed until industrial units prove hours of safe operation.

    But, e-cat DIY kits could be an interesting choice for those home brewers who want their own CHP generating ability even before a certified solution hits market. e.g. http://www.greengen.be/en

    • Pedro

      There is Carrier again… In the “who’s the partner” thread a few weeks ago, I suggested Carrier to be the partner because of the funny remark made by Rossi.

      • captain

        So far, IMO the B&W company has all the necessary requirements to fulfill Rossi’s needs.

        • clovis

          HEY, Captin,
          I read through the B&W doc you put up, and you make a good argument .
          If you go through and substute small atomic reactors with e-cat it would be a resonable accumption, i would say as well.

  • Jason

    If the electricity is used on the premises, the office or home, the electricity is eventually converted to heat and dumped into the room. All of the energy is used to heat the space and it produces some electricity in the process. I am working on another version of this idea.

    • Peter_Roe

      Indeed. Precisely what happens when you use tungsten lighting – the heat is not ‘wasted’, it simply contributes to the building’s heating. When light levels are high (i.e., summer – at least before aerosol geoengineering) lights are used less – a sort of automatic control system. Unfortunately this is apparently all beyond the comprehension of our masters.

  • rbryan

    I also believe the 2nd answer of Yes pertains to the Ecat being tested as a heat source, not if it was tested with Green Turbine.

    • Pedro

      Makes no sense for AR to claim that he tested if the eCat can produce heat… That’s what the eCat is supposed to do… Make heat.

      • KD

        But also tested if the heat can be used to make electricity. this are two different things.
        Also Rossi said, that he did not get offer of ready to buy turbine.

  • Fibb

    Frank, I think you misunderstood the question the commenter posed. He asked if the ecat produces heat.