Rossi: Domestic E-Cats Still Planned, Certification Problematic

I put in a question on the Journal of Nuclear Physics regarding plans for the domestic E-Cat in the light of the new partnership. I asked Rossi if the new partner was as committed to the home units as he was. His Response:

Dear Frank Acland:
Absolutely yes, provided we resolve the certification and intellectual property issues. The certification, in particular, is absolutely necessary ( I mean safety certification) and, believe me, there is no certificator in the world that will take the liability to certify a LENR device for domestic utilization. It is necessary that a history of safe and reliable industrial plants makes up a lattice of good statistics before this certification becomes possible. This is the truth, who says the contrary does not know the issue.
Happy new Year to all your Readers.

In a follow up question, another JONP readers said that his hope of ever getting the domestic E-Cat had been shattered by Rossi’s reply above, to which Rossi replied:

Nothing is shattered: we will get the certification for the domestic E-Cats after good Industrial statistics and your pre-order will be followed by our offer. The price will not change in real value.
Obviously, the certification does not depend on us, but we will do all the possible. In the meantime also the Intellectual Property issue will be resolved. That’s easier.

So there are two issues involved, apparently — safety and intellectual property. By intellectual property, I am assuming that Rossi is referring to being able to secure a patent for the process, to give him a level of protection against reverse engineering these home units. My guess is that it will take some years of having the large E-Cat working safely before enough data is available to satisfy certifiers that the device can be used in the home.

  • James Smithurst

    I sent an email to Roger Green of e-cat Australia last year asking whether any Australian certification was available for the e-cat, and if not, when will this be done?
    Australia is not likely to accept foreign certification for a unit that produces heat via an unknown supposed nuclear reaction. In Australia, we can’t even do our own electrical or plumbing. Hot water systems must have special valves fitted so that the temperature cannot exceed 55 or so degrees Celsius. I never got a reply from Mr Green. I find the whole process of setting up an exclusive distributorship for this part of the world (ready to take orders but no product nor certification is available) very suspicious. By the way, the Australian website claims that a domestic e-cat will be available in 2013 and that a commercial unit is available now.

    The website reads: “10KW Home E-Cat Heating Unit
    Estimated Price $2000-2500.00
    Estimated 6 months re-fill cartridge cost $150
    Estimated Lifetime 20 years

    Easy to retrofit into existing water heaters and heating and cooling systems to seriously reduce customers’ electricity and gas bills.

    Remember, when you have thermal energy, it is easily converted with known technology into cooling – air-conditioning. All you need to do is bolt on your heat extractor.

    The energy density is so high that the E-Cat modules only need to be loaded two times a year. On these occasions, you will simply mail your E-Cat cartridge back to our office to be recycled, and we will send you a re-fill, plus of course you can always have a spare cartridge close at hand”

    Mr Rossi was right the first time, I presume. You’ll have trade unions and other organisations try to regulate any such device and make it as difficult as possible to self-install an e-cat without strict guidelines and supervision by a ‘professional’. I am sure that the plumbing and electrician fraternity will get into this.

  • Renzo

    an user on the Cobraf forum found an interesting entry in the DARPA 2013 balance sheet:
    http://www.cobraf.com/showimage.php?image=/forum/immagini/R_123505859_1.jpg
    the full post is here:
    http://www.cobraf.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=5747&reply_id=123505859#123505859

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      So, $20M was used in 2011 (but apparently not in 2012 or 2013) to the following (I copy it here for convenience):

      This thrust explored and developed novel components for use in diverse power systems to dramatically increase overall energy efficiency, typically with substantial savings of weight/volume as well as cost. Included in this thrust were high energy density capacitors as well as new permanent magnetic materials with significantly higher magnetic strength and higher operating temperature for motors and generators. Radically new thermoelectric architectures that allow for high efficiency in converting heat to electricity were investigated. Novel energy systems focussed on immediate DoD needs such as long endurance small unmanned aerial systems, and far-future technologies to exceed the efficiency limits imposed by combustion of hydrocarbons were developed. Materials technology is also being developed to enhance power conditioning for large power applications such as Navy ships.

      I think that each sentence describes a separate sub-activity with the $20M “thrust” (perhaps a “thrust” is their agency level term which means a set of competed grants having some common denominator). I don’t see anything which would strongly point towards LENR here. The “far-future” sentence might as well refer to nuclear isomers or solar power than LENR. Usually the substance behind a description like this is more mundane than what it sounds at first reading.

  • Torbjörn

    http://hydrofusion.com/news/ecat-featured-on-swedish-television-svt

    It says that it was Posted on December 21, 2012, but i saw it just now.
    Note that Magnus Holm speaks about the possibility to use a Stirling engine in a car, for that you need the Hot-Cat.

    • http://smallenginepower John Thomas

      Perhaps an E-Cat would not be needed for automotive force…Think about the Cyclone Waste Heat Engine (already in Production and being sold) from Florida, USA.Many types of heat sources can be used with this type of engine and it can be used either as direct drive to wheels or used to run a generator to power an electric car.

  • georgehants

    This circuit pulls energy from thin air
    Most of us are familiar with Texas Instruments (TI) as the company that made the graphing calculator we used in school.
    http://www.tgdaily.com/sustainability-features/68538-this-circuit-pulls-energy-from-thin-air

    • GreenWin

      “….vibration energy” More cats out of the bag. More headaches for physicists.

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        What?

  • Peter_Roe

    I’ll try to do this properly, after the mess I have just left under a comment by Hal further down the thread!

    Renzo Mondaini (is this the Renzo who occasionally posts here?) has been experimenting with electrolytic/plasma fusion of the type used by the Pirelli High School team, JP Naudin and others, with visually spectacular results, and using an incredibly simple ‘apparatus’. Through a couple of serendipitous observations he has produced evidence that appears to confirm the transmutation of H to D, and Al to Si during these plasma fusion experiments.

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/TEceEHgaXoU?version=3

    Note that the English voiceover gets a little confused between ‘hydrogen plus’ and ‘hydroxyl’ at one point, but the intended meaning (electrochemical imbalance due to H+ to D transmutation) is clear.

    Could any physicists or electrochemists here please take a look and give their opinions? On the face of it this seems to be the clearest proof yet that the conversion of protons to neutrons by electron capture is not only possible, but incredibly simple to reliably bring about.

    The video is well worth watching, and the process would seem to be very easy for anyone with a 400V DC power source (arc welder?) to replicate.

    • Peter_Roe

      Update: Arc welders apparently use 20-100V DC so would not be suitable power sources for these experiments.

    • Peter_Roe

      The segment where a plasma arc is produced in air (using electrolyte seepage) makes me wonder whether the ‘hot cat’ might be using something related to this. Perhaps Rossi has a way to control ionisation in hydrogen gas held between two concentric tungsten tubes of differing diameter, and then applies 400V DC or so across the gap? It might be necessary to cover about 80% of the cathode surface with an insulator (such as the famous black paint) in order to get the 1:5 surface ratio that seems to be needed.

      Renzo Mondaini’s videos show that only the cathode normally heats to red or even white heat during plasma fusion, so if the outer tube is the cathode, heat could be produced at one surface only, as observed in the hot cat demo video.

      • GreenWin

        A nice electrochemistry demo. The Al -> Si is probably contamination from the beaker itself as the plasma is hot enough to liberate some Si. Done in a stainless beaker would eliminate this issue.

    • Renzo

      no, he’s not me!

    • Peter_Roe

      Of course, self sustained operation in the absence of any electrical input at all would be difficult/impossible to explain in a plasma device.

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      I watched the video but I didn’t see anything anomalous. He didn’t measure the input power so there is no indication that anomalous heat was produced. A mundane explanation for the phenomenon is arcing through the bubbling hydrogen envelope surrounding the cathode which activates when the gaseous hydrogen surrounds the electrode completely. Arcing is known to produce wideband radio emission. He didn’t specify which theory was used to interpret the radio “peaks”, but I suspect it’s similar to what is used in radio astronomy. Interstellar space is a low collision environment which is completely different from this one. The collision frequency of molecules is probably larger in the jar than his 350 MHz frequency. Concerning glassy substance looking like silicon, pyrex glass (his jar) contains Si. In summary, as there was no measurement (or claim) of anomalous heat, and there are simpler explanations to his radio and Si findings without invoking deuterium or Al->Si nuclear reaction, there is no indication of some anomalous process.

  • georgehants

    Guardian
    Mark Vernon
    The Most Despised Science Book of 2012 is … worth reading
    Philosophers that break scientistic taboos, such as Thomas Nagel with Mind and Cosmos, risk much, but we need them.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2013/jan/04/most-despised-science-book-2012

  • GreenWin

    A very positive outlook on the use of LENR at NASA, from Chief Scientist Langley Research Center Dr. Dennis Bushnell:

    “Perhaps the poster child for an energetics
    revolution is low-energy nuclear reactions.
    Some 20 years of LENR experiments have
    now taken place worldwide. Many of these
    have produced heat in excess (often far in
    excess) of chemical reactions and various
    transmutations, with little worrisome radia-
    tion—and at low electronvolt energy inputs
    rather than the huge numbers necessary to
    surmount the Coulomb barrier.
    There are several theories to explain
    this, and they indicate that weak interac-
    tions, not the strong force, are responsible.
    There are four or five devices producing
    many watts to kilowatts, and researchers
    are trying to vet their efficacy. If this ener-
    getics technology proves real, scalable, and
    safe, aeronautics will be changed greatly.
    We will be able to enter a design space we
    have never been in before, called ‘energy
    rich.’ LENR measurements indicate energy
    densities much greater than chemical with
    the Weak Interaction Theory indicating
    over a million times chemical. Such energy
    density, with little radiation to worry about,
    would enable myriad changes:”

    http://www.aerospaceamerica.org/Documents/Aerospace-America-PDFs-2012/September%202012/Feature_Aeronautics_Frontiers_SEP2012-5.pdf

    Looks like NASA Langley has no slowed on bit on their dedication to utilize LENR in aerospace and environmental applications.

    • Hugo

      Why would he say “If this energetics technology proves real” if he would think that it already has been?

      • GreenWin

        “…real, scalable, and safe, aeronautics will be changed greatly.” Bushnell

        The first is certain. The second two are under study.

  • GreenWin

    Europe is getting desperate now that Germany, Swiss and Italians have voted down nuclear fission. As this Arbitrage article notes, it is causing concern in the financial markets that rely on utility stability for financial leverage.

    Aside from the Swedish TV documentary on Rossi’s progress – few in Europe have been exposed to the potential financial avalanche headed their way.

    http://www.arbitragemagazine.com/topics/international-affairs/europe/nuclear6-energy17-europe/

  • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

    I don’t believe my ears.

    Industrial plants do not need UA certification only boiler branch
    in the case of pressure vessels and proper equiptment installation.

    Home boilers and heating systems usually need UA or another competing
    certification company in most first world countries.

    I would not expect Rossi to be first in this market with this reply
    it is clear the plans have changed. If his answer is years for
    domestic he will only enter the market after someone else has marketed
    an off grid lower cost green energy source. Not so promising for the little guy.

  • Zaghlool

    Well, The release of domestic E-Cats in the market will expose the top secrets of Cold Fusion to every one – That is the real reason of the delay.
    Smart people only know this and there is no other reasons.

    • http://www.rentezi.com Conrad

      Yes – That too ;-)

      So many reasons for no home E-cats!

      You will be lucky if your children ever see one

  • Jake

    Once a product complies with European Safety Directives, there is no
    reason that it could not be sold in the EU. There is nothing in European
    law that states that even when a product complies with the safety
    directives it needs to be placed in a factory for a few years before
    being placed on the market. I worked in this area and I read most of these
    directives. I do know that there are countries and entities that will in their self interest try to use safety etc to stop a product going to market because it’s an ambiguous area and if you don’t know your rights you will get the run around. This product is simply a pressure vessel that has with it a piece of electronics and it allegedly does not give off any radiation or has no radio active parts. A certified safety valve will handle the pressure vessel side of the product. The low voltage and EMC directive will handle the electrical side of the product. I know that we had to legally threaten certain entities that tried to stop product. They backed down once we called their bluff. So the same thing could be happening here. Can any person out there find where it says that if a product complies with EU regulations and directives, countries within the EU have the right to prohibit the sale of this product. Actually if you check it out you will find it says the opposite.

    • Hal

      That is how I understand the situation, and IIRC DGT said they met the requirements early last year, but suddenly thy apparently are going to only produce plants for commercial use for the time being?
      Personally I don’t think it’s a safety issue as far as lenr is concerned, but a major safety issue to make sure that installers of the tech know how to do it safely and correctly, witness wrongly installed unvented water heaters
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv178a60Ypg
      (chose a short one plenty more on youtube!

      • Peter_Roe

        Thanks for the link Hal – absolutely fascinating stuff! Mondaini seems to be replicating Pirelli-type reactors in the simplest possible ways, and with visually spectacular results.

        If he is right about the transmutations of H to D and Al to Si by electron capture, then here is an amazing simple test bed for gathering more data on the phenomenon. It’s hard to see how this process could have been overlooked for so long.

        Note that the English voiceover gets a little confused between ‘hydrogen plus’ and ‘hydroxyl’ at one point, but the intended meaning (electrochemical imbalance due to H+ to D transmutation) is clear.

        Could any physicists or electrochemists here please take a look and give their opinions? On the face of it this seems to be the clearest proof yet that the conversion of protons to neutrons by electron capture is not only possible, but incredibly simple to bring about.

        • Peter_Roe

          Sorry – entirely the wrong place – PLEASE IGNORE!

        • Peter_Roe
        • Peter_Roe

          Well that’s very strange. I followed a link from this thread to the Mondaini video on Youtube, but now can’t find the comment with the hyperlink (deleted comment?), so apologies to anyone whose link I have inadvertantly hijacked!

          The video is well worth watching, and the process seems to be very easy for anyone with a 400V DC power source (arc welder?) to replicate.

          • HeS

            Unfortunately, the movie does not see that in these experiments we have excess heat.

            • Peter_Roe

              No, there is no useful data for the energy balance. I think the significance may lie in the apparent electron capture transmutations that Mondaini has some evidence for.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      No company dares sell a product in the litigious USA without product liability insurance. Insurers are reluctant to insure a new technology, especially when the word “nuclear” is involved.

    • Chris I

      You still haven’t got it Jake,

      SGS certified the 1MW unit (not the single units) for use according to requisite criteria. They did not certify it for being sold to any Tom Dick or Harry.

      Also, as has been pointed out so much, it isn’t a matter of law and only law. It is mostly a matter of taking responsibility, a risky thing when something is new and not at all well understood. What kinds of things were you taking the responsibility of CE marking? Coffee cups?

      • Peter_Roe

        I wouldn’t want the responsibility of having declared plastic coffee cups safe. They leach significant amounts of bisphenol A (BPA) and styrene into hot liquids. BPA is an endocrine disruptor that also causes structural damage to the brain, and styrene is a known carcinogen. Litigation in the US is probably inevitable!

        • Chris I

          I didn’t mean plastic ones.

          Anyway even that is predictable enough, compared to a physical phenomenon which is so scarcely understood that most physicists still think it just can’t happen, unless they’ve seen it with their own two eyes.

          • GreenWin

            Even then…

  • georgehants

    Brought up from below as no more space.
    ——-
    Hugo on January 5, 2013 at 1:18 pm
    I’m sure they have people on staff who can type and click on send. But asking an institution how it feels about something strikes me as a waste of time.
    George, would it make sense to say that NASA wouldn’t need an e-mail from a scientific journal to trigger publication of a breakthrough in what would be the most important technology since the discovery of fire if they had achieved it?

    • georgehants

      Hugo, agreed, you say —-
      “George, would it make sense to say that NASA wouldn’t need an e-mail from a scientific journal to trigger publication of a breakthrough in what would be the most important technology since the discovery of fire if they had achieved it?”
      It is now clear that science is corrupt and or incompetent to the extreme.
      It has been 24 years and with much Evidence to confirm Cold Fusion in some form, we are still on these pages giving almost the only informed information for scientists to keep-up with the subject.
      You must agree that is an intolerable position.
      The question as you say is —-
      Why is NASA not coming out and announcing their clear position on the subject.

      • Hugo

        I don’t think NASA has a clear position on the subject. Let me remind you. It was you who wrote “NASA is seemingly confirming Cold Fusion” and I still ask what makes you think so.

        • georgehants

          Hugo, your question seems confrontational as you have as much Evidence as I.
          For example —
          —–
          Lukedc on January 5, 2013 at 1:44 pm
          http://technologygateway.nasa.gov/media/CC/lenr/lenr.html
          Yep NASA aren’t interested in LENR at all. LOL!

          • Hugo

            I agree. But then I’m not saying NASA has a position on LENR – let alone knowing what it is. You are – and for the reasons I outlined below, I don’t think that is warranted.

            • georgehants

              Hugo the opening statement on the video is —-
              Method of Enhancement of Surface Plasmon Polaritons To Initiate and Sustain LENR.
              —-
              I think you would agree that is a Statement of belief in a method.
              —-
              I need say no more on the subject of NASA coming out with a clear statement on their position concerning Cold Fusion.
              If they do not, then they clearly are corrupt or incompetent with such an important subject.

              • Hugo

                It definitely isn’t a statement of belief in a method. Just a research project title. Need I remind you that Zawodny himself clarified “There have been many attempts to twist the release of this video into NASA’s support for LENR…” (you know the rest).

                • georgehants

                  Hugo, The statement from NASA reads —-
                  “Method of Enhancement of Surface Plasmon Polaritons To Initiate and Sustain LENR.”

                  It does not read -possible- Method of enhancement-

                  It reads —
                  “To Initiate and Sustain LENR.”

                  It does not read -possible- LENR.
                  —-
                  After giving your opinion that seems to imply that they are saying “possible” you move on to take a quoted opinion from somebody as if it is a fact.
                  You then take that opinion -
                  “Zawodny himself clarified “There have been many attempts to twist the release of this video”
                  —-
                  As if it proves that what I am saying is twisting the Truth.
                  Your response is illogical.

                • Lukedc

                  I think everyone is missing the point. Once it is listed in the tech gateway that means that it is past R & D and ready for licensing. The tech is proven. It has already been researched and there will be deployments within peer government labs.
                  I think everyone needs to realise that this is real, and within a few years there will not be the need to for this rediculous to and fro.

    • Chris I

      Since you brought the discussion up here, I’ll answer your root comment here about “major peer reviewed journals”.

      First, which ones are and aren’t “major”? There have been many peer reviewed articles, including those of Piantelli and Focardi, whose work Rossi followed. These were in Il Nuovo Cimento.

      At this point, there’s not as much point wagging fingers at the journals as in stirring up more efforts by researchers and those who direct research and manage it according to funding. Because this is what the real issue is. George, did you see the talk by Celani and Srivastava at CERN?

      http://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=177379

      The intent was basically to elicite more dedication of funding and resources to these things. Unfortunately there is still quite a bit of resistance in the wake of the whole Pons-Fleischman saga.

      • georgehants

        Morning Chris, yes agreed to all, my point is simply that somebody needs to take responsibility for 24 years of incompetent and proven corrupt handling of Cold Fusion.
        We could of course name many individuals but I believe that the root problem lies with the establishment.
        The “premier” journals are the mouthpiece of the establishment and as such have shown a complete dereliction of duty in their responsibility to Science and humanity.
        Perhaps you or others would disagree and it would be interesting to find out who or what most people believe is mainly at fault.

        • Chris I

          It is interesting to watch the Q&A session of that event. Unfortunately they did not make it a third, separate video, despite it concerning both speakers; it is the last 12 or so minutes of the one with Celani’s speech. I advise downloading the video, then you can go to the 50th minute, unless you want to watch the whole thing.

          The Q&A session gives a hint or two about how the research community regards these things. It doesn’t really look like there is a conspiracy. There is caution, yes, and due diligence especially about dedicating resources and funding to these matters. The one who engages Celani with the most objections is equivocating on the matter of statistics in the meta-analysis, but it’s a bit of a subtle matter; although I strongly disagree with him it isn’t all that simple to spell out where he goes wrong.

          Journals are enterprises which provide a service, they don’t have some sacred duty nor responsibility to science or to humanity. They only have a reputation to defend. I don’t see this Great Fault, except for some matters of human nature and shortcomings which are common in all walks of life.

  • georgehants

    It sounds like a contradiction in terms but scientists have reached temperatures that go beyond absolute zero in a lab, and get hotter as they do so.
    Beyond ‘absolute zero’ temperatures get hotter
    Posted January 5, 2013 – 11:30 by Flora Malein
    Read more at http://www.tgdaily.com/general-sciences-features/68525-beyond-absolute-zero-temperatures-get-hotter#jIsbichw8XPOIyys.99

    • georgehants

      This reminds me of a calculation in M theory by Witten I think, that I cannot find, showing that when one moves to the incredibly small things begin to get larger.
      Anybody aware?

    • LENR4you

      That could lead to the “coldest fusion”!

    • Chris I

      Negatemperatures have been known for some time regarding what is called a spin gas, in which case they make perfect sense due to the dicrete and limited energy spectrum.

      This article is very unclear about what it is reporting on. At first it doesn’t clarify at all the sense in which a negatemperature is reached; the talk about pressure makes it appear an arbitrarily semantic issue. Even when it finally talks avout the Boltzmann distribution, it doesn’t tell me the nexus with what it says about pressure and, mostly, it gives me not the slightest hint about the very fundamental aspect of integrability over the spectrum, I could only guess there is somehow a maximal energy value, but what they are talking about ought not to have one. I need to go looking for a better description.

      • Chris I

        LOL I had missed that it links to arxive! I’ll take a better look tomorrow I hope.

  • http://www.rentezi.com Conrad

    I said it about ten months ago.

    Home E-cats were a dream in the first place!

    Of course it will never happen.

    Commercial E-cats will pump power into the grid, then the price of electricity will plummet to such an extent your power bill will be 4c per KW

    What would be the point with then putting one in your home which, lets face it will cost a few thousand and just possibly make steam.

    Rossi knows this. He is just letting the dreamers down politely with this explanation.
    Nobody has been deceived by Rossi! The commercial E-cat has just panned out to be the one and only option. (No one can be the greatest inventor AND the greatest business planner.)

    He now of course realizes that the Domestic E-Cat idea was not a good business plan.

    However initially it had many people excited including myself.
    This added a lot of “Buzz” to LNER prematurely. (To produce your own energy at home would surely be the greatest thing since the invention of fire)

    If you are waiting for a home E-cat, you might be waiting for ever.

    • Jonas

      Agreed you might wait forever, but that is not the point.

      You don’t simply pay for getting the power into your home, you also pay for ‘hiring’ the power lines that goes into your house, and without those you’d get free power (minus the investment of the ecat) instead of 4c per kWh – free is cheaper, the logic says.

      Imagine building a new house and not having to pay for laying the power lines – or even water and waste management, if we get to a point where the ecat could power self-sufficient technologies for this too (e.g. water from air, and burning or freeze-drying the waste). Or imagine a house-boat powered just like an on-land house, but without the cables!

      Besides, if the ecat ‘only’ produces heat, people like myself living in the freezing north would still rather not keep paying to the greedy power companies anymore. What costs is heating your house, not so much running the TV or the lights.

      Just the pure fact of being able to go off the grid is enough for millions of politics- and capitalism-tired people to want one.

      Besides again – no, the commercial big cats will not produce cheap energy for us, only increase the profits for those companies, and for the governments taxing us.

    • Warthog

      The point you are missing is that a lot of homes are NOT “on-the-grid”, and if the technology existed, many more would very probably be built.

      The market is plenty sufficient to justify the existence of a stand-alone unit.

      Another market is RV’s. Even if the E-Cat can’t power the RV itself, there is a need for electricity, heat, and refrigeration when not “rolling down the highway”. “Boondocking” would likely expand drastically if a non-hydrocarbon CHP unit was available.

      And then there is the question of the reliability of the grid itself during “extreme weather events”. I would be willing to bet that a lot of folks living in hurricane country would have a home unit as backup, even if they ARE grid-connected (I grew up in hurricane country, and were I still there, you can bet your booties that I would own one).

    • Gerrit

      if the home ecat were only producing electricity you would be absolutely right. However a domestic heat source will always have a benefit over a communal heat plant and switching to pure electric heating doesn’t make sense to me either.

    • Pweet

      ^^ @ conrad
      which says in part “What would be the point with then putting one in your home which, lets face it will cost a few thousand and just possibly make steam”

      A large part of any household power bill goes into home heating and water heating.
      It would be well worth a few thousand dollars to be able to do this with a COP of 6. At that price I would buy two tomorrow if they were available and proven effective.
      I run a reverse cycle air conditioner most of winter and early spring, with a COP of 3 and a gas hot water heater. Although gas is cheaper that electricity it has a COP of 1. so it works out about the same price as electric heating.
      Anything which can make hot water at 80 to 100 deg C with a COP of 6 has an immediate and ready market for home heating and HWS applications. They would be one and the same device. The HWS would act as a heat resevoir for home heating as well as supplying the hot water for bathrooms.

      However, I do agree with your final statement “If you are waiting for a home E-cat, you might be waiting for ever.”

    • Mike

      Commercial E-cats will pump power into the grid, then the price of electricity will plummet to such an extent your power bill will be 4c per KW
      That won’t work because the power grid costs a lot more than 4c/kwh to build and maintain. Most of the cost of electricity is distribution costs, not generation costs.

      Better to just have your own e-cat. You could even use it as a CHP unit.

      • Peter_Roe

        It seems likely that the cost of power will remain at ‘fossil fuel’ levels after the introduction of CF. In addition to maintenance costs, governments will find ways to extract revenues to replace those they are losing, and corporations will trouser the extra profits of the basis of claimed conversion costs. This will in fact be true for a decade or so, after which the investment becomes almost pure profit.

  • georgehants

    Could anybody give an explanation as to why when NASA is seemingly confirming Cold Fusion not one major scientific journal has published a report on the research results so far.
    Would I be wrong to think that such a momentous scientific breakthrough may be of interest to one or two of there readers.
    Perhaps somebody who believes that these journals are to be believed and trusted would clear-up this little mystery.

    • Hugo

      As far as I can see, NASA hasn’t budgeted anything for LENR in their 2013 planning. Wouldn’t you expect serious funding if they had really confirmed Cold Fusion?

      • Gerrit

        Just because you can’t find anything in whatever budget plan you are looking at, doesn’t mean it is not funded somehow.

        See the post from June 7, 2012 “NASA Answers Questions About LENR Research” here on ECW

      • georgehants

        Hugo, I agree, so if they believe in Cold Fusion your question becomes —
        Why is NASA not devoting millions to Cold Fusion and encouraging the science administration to start doing the Research.

        • Hugo

          True. And if you see they don’t devote millions to Cold Fusion research, the question becomes

          Why do you think NASA believes in Cold Fusion?

          • georgehants

            Hugo, ha, you keep asking me questions that are unanswerable as I am not privy to hidden knowledge about NASA.
            Like you I must judge on the known Evidence that to me seems to imply that NASA is taking the subject in some quarters seriously.
            If so then the above question becomes relevant.
            NASA in one simple announcement could make it very clear if they see merit in Cold Fusion or not.
            Why do they not do this.
            Science does not seem to see that by asking NASA this question, if they do not answer then they are displaying total corruption or incompetent distortion.
            There are possible excuses for Mr. Rossi not answering questions.
            There are no possible excuses for NASA not to answer.

          • HeS

            @:”NASA belive in LENR”

            It’s simple. NASA does not believe in LENR but some people employed by NASA. These are not the same who decide about the money for NASA research.

            • georgehants

              HeS, I must bow to your apparent knowledge that “NASA does not believe in LENR”.
              I would be interested in a link where NASA have made that statement.

            • Hugo

              Exactly. So the real question is whether NASA has actually “confirmed” LENR which would take it beyond an individual’s belief and into the realm of knowledge, which the Zawodny project was supposedly meant to contribute to. I don’t know what to make of the fact that we haven’t heard anything in terms of results but it certainly doesn’t justify the assumption that they were successful.

              • georgehants

                Hugo, would it make sense to say that one of our prestige scientific journals may have one member of staff capable of sending an e-mail to NASA asking if they feel Cold Fusion has merit.

                • Gerrit

                  I think that’s the job of investigative scientific journalists.

                  They could then write a nice article on the subject and question the scientific use of some of the “top” journals.

                • Hugo

                  I’m sure they have people on staff who can type and click on send. But asking an institution how it feels about something strikes me as a waste of time.

                  George, would it make sense to say that NASA wouldn’t need an e-mail from a scientific journal to trigger publication of a breakthrough in what would be the most important technology since the discovery of fire if they had achieved it?

                • http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php AlainCo

                  nasa is complex, and moreover most of the various members can prefer to follow the opinion of the politician, this mean denial…
                  the only who support LENR have seen it or know the people who seen it…

                  all the other simply say it does not work, because that is the opinion of Science, Nature, Sciam, and MIT…

                  since all of thoas actors commited crime agains scientific method (rejecting article that passed PR, refusing PR for no reason, frauding results, not reading PR papers), you can ignore their opinion… and the people who hide their face behind.

                  few people don’t hide, and have real personnal opinion. most negative are ridiculous (shanahan…)…

                  I’ve checked… already in 93 the critics wer se loose I was convinved LENr was real, yet I fight against many conspiracy theories, and other science/medecine fraud…

              • http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php AlainCo
      • Lukedc

        http://technologygateway.nasa.gov/media/CC/lenr/lenr.html

        Yep NASA aren’t interested in LENR at all. LOL!

        • Hugo

          Would you agree that there is a difference between being interested in something and taking it serious enough to fund significant research in it?

    • Gerrit

      George, what exactly are you asking ?

      1) Why hasn’t NASA put any papers to peer review ?

      or

      2) Why has no major scientific journal published anything about cold fusion ?

      possible answers:

      1) I assume that NASA is not / never / hardly ever putting papers up for peer review. They mostly create internal Technical Memoranda

      2) Several scientific journals are accepting cold fusion / LENR papers for peer review and would publish if passed.

      • georgehants

        Gerrit, these journals are there to inform and have sections called editorials etc.
        They are quick to condemn research in area’s that are against religious Dogma etc.
        If these “comics” do not use their influence and position to inform and advise on something as important as Cold Fusion then clearly they have no right to give their opinion on anything and all editorials must be stopped.

        • Gerrit

          the editors of some journals have a different opinion than you have.

          They want to have the highest pagerank/impact factor for their journal and they want to protect the brand.

          • georgehants

            Gerrit, my opinion like anybody’s concerning Evidence is totally irrelevant to the Facts unless it reflects the Facts.
            They have no other function if they wish to retain any respect, than to print the Truth, Evidence and Facts. All opinion of any worth beyond must reflect this and be open-minded, honest un-censored and Logical.
            What their marketing concerns involve are irrelevant.
            If they cannot survive by informing readers of the Truth than what a terrible reflection on the scientific community.
            I think I am stating the only scientific principle of any worth, find the Truth.

  • georgehants
    • admin

      The list owner shut it down for a while because of some unwelcome posting.

      • georgehants

        Thanks Admin, agreed it seems to have moved a little to far off topic even for me.
        Hope it returns soon though as good and interesting posts on the technical side of things.

        • artefact

          the admin needs time to read all the relevant posts to know whom to kick out….

        • Peter_Roe

          Most probably at least in part a form of attack called ‘topic dilution’. http://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm Technique #3

  • barty

    For me it’s not very important to buy a domestic ecat in the next few month.
    For me it’s MOST important to see a proof that LENR is possible to get COP > 1.

    If Rossi’s claims are proven to be true, this would be enough for me ;)

    • Martin

      Just wait for what the MFMP will be able to accomplish. They are on their way to a proof for LENR.

  • Torbjörn

    I found this interesting, it might be related to cold fusion, published by Leif Holmlid:

    Common Forms of Alkali Metals — New Rydberg Matter Clusters of Potassium and Hydrogen

    http://gup.ub.gu.se/publication/130542-common-forms-of-alkali-metalsnew-rydberg-matter-clusters-of-potassium-and-hydrogen

    Leif Holmlid has also a patent application: “Method and apparatus for generating energy through inertial confinement fusion”.
    (It will probably take at least a year before the patent application becomes public)

    http://www2.chem.gu.se/~holmlid/

  • Jacob

    I believe Domestic E-Cat still needs 2-3 years to be available.
    It still needs more research and improvements to be ready.
    Every one should keep patience.

  • Jake

    I used to CE mark products for a company once upon a time.
    This was self certification for the European market.
    A lot of product types have their own EN standards, but a product
    that has no relevant standard is self certified. To do this all one
    has to do is to make sure that the product complies with the relevant
    European directives. They are generally the Machinery Directive, Pressure
    Vessel Directive, Low voltage Directive, EMC directive. I don’t know what directive says that a product has to be placed in an industrial situation for a number of years before it goes onto the general market. I would like to know what European Directive states this.
    I offered my services for free to Mr Rossi with regards certification. He told me all of this was under control and did not require help. Only last year he had a factory producing home units but it looks now the whole thing was a fantasy. I think the powers that be are probably leaning on him to wind it down.

    • Fibb

      where I work, at a university in Canada, CE is completely useless. any equipment that comes in with only CE, must be recertified or the fire insurance is invalid.

    • Chris I

      You really seem to not have read the matter properly. For one thing, folks here were talking about UL in the US. For another, nobody said that law requires a few years of industrial use before domestic; Rossi said that in this specific case no certifier would take the responsibility without a good layer of statistics to base judgement on. For another, the 1MW unit was certified according to CE by SGS quite a while ago and, in discussions here, it was pointed out that a category of products including water boilers/heaters can’t be self-certified.

  • Fibb

    you have to wonder where people’s heads are that they say he could/should sell domestic ecats without certificaton by UL or similar.

    Rossi should definitely wait for a couple years at least until his industrial products prove themselves safe and reliable, before even thinking about the domestic market.

    give your heads a shake!

    • Invy

      But I want my own reactor which relies on physics we don’t quite understand yet… What could possibly go wrong.

      • NJT

        Perhaps nothing more than dozens of other things you have in your home that fall under the same certifacations if any…

    • robiD

      Because he did it before knowing that there would be such a certification problems. Probably UL delayed time because they want accurate statistics about possible radiation that a normal device doesn’t require. Statistics need working industrial plants (many) and much time.
      I can imagine that a statistic of 99% of absence of radiations isn’t enough to guarantee a certification, most likely, without a theory that explain the phenomenon, they will want 100% with hundreds of thousands hours functioning, and this means many industrial plants and much time.
      I bet that if only a plant and only once will report a minimum level of radiations, the certification for home device is going to never be released.

  • Lu

    Intellectual property issues was never an issue with Rossi with regard to the domestic E-Cat. His strategy was to build it en masse cheaply enough so that there would not be competitors. So we were told many times in 2011 before he started telling us UL is the holdup and that he cannot comment on it any more. How quickly we forget….

  • georgehants

    Andrea Rossi
    January 4th, 2013 at 3:15 PM
    Dear Ecco Liberation:
    We received requests from the naval sector. I think our technology will be useful in future for ships, but now we are focused on thermal and electric power generators.
    I think anyway that trains and ships will be more close to our tech than cars, trucks, let alone aircrafts.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

      Interesting comment. To me it indicates that he knows more about the limitations of his ecat than what we can gather from publicly available knowledge.

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        If the timescale of startup and controllability is of the order of one hour, that limits many applications substantially, such as cars.

  • georgehants

    Daniel G. Zavela
    January 4th, 2013 at 12:40 PM
    Dear Dr. Rossi:
    An electrical engineer friend of mine found your EMF discovery fascinating.
    He had a few questions for you, if your research has found the answers yet?
    1. If this is not a temperature-dependent phenomenon, why wasn’t it detected earlier? (it is quite unexpected, so perhaps no one was looking for it, and the recent discovery was merely a fortunate accident, as often happens in Science).
    2. What is the strength of the EMF? Milligauss? Dozens of Gauss? That makes a difference in (a) whether it might be due to something else going on in the lab, or from the reactor core itself, and (b) whether there is enough energy in the EMF to provide useful levels of output power.
    3. What is the internal physical arrangement of the nickel and other elements in the eCat? I ask this, because I speculate that if there is some kind of circular layout, it is conceivable that some subatomic effect has set up a circular electron flow that would produce an EMF.
    Once again, Dr. Rossi has astounded us, and we eagerly await substantial information :-)
    Best of Luck in 2013!
    Daniel G. Zavela
    —-
    Andrea Rossi
    January 4th, 2013 at 3:12 PM
    Dear Daniel G. Zavela:
    1- matter of serendipity
    2- I prefer not to give precise data until we have not understood well the “strange power”
    3- confidential
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Chris I

      If Daniel’s friend is an electrical engineer, why is he measuring EMF in gauss?

      • Peter_Roe

        Chris – I initially assumed (like you) that ‘EMF’ meant electromotive force, although I was never too sure about the adjective ‘direct’ that always seemed to precede it. Back in July, Rossi was using the term to mean potential difference, in a discussion with Rosemary Ainslie. This questioner apparently assumes though that it means electromagnetic field, and as Rossi does not quibble the reference to milligauss, I suppose that must be his intended meaning.

        Presumably then a magnetometer was employed for some reason, and a magnetic field has been detected in the absence of a current flow through a heater or any other ‘driver’ in the reactor. The field would need to be reasonably significant, or it could probably be explained in terms of current flows in the reactor casing or fuel mass generated by thermocouple effects of some kind.

        • Chris I

          I wouldn’t be so sure.

          The word ‘direct’ might be Rossi’s clumsiness in saying DC and his lack of correction could be simply negligence. Even the assumption that you make is not typical for an electric engineer as well as the fact that it would indeed be an assumption, it isn’t a reason for a competent electric enfineer to assume it’s a magnetic field. Your conjecture would imply that Daniel’s friend made an arbitrary guess which happened to be right and this doesn’t fit with him being an electric engineer of the ilk I’m familiar with.

          Anyway, who cares. I simply raised a mild doubt this chap, that’s all. As for plasma, I wouldn’t expect such a field as a consequence without some further mechanism.

      • Peter_Roe

        Also – if the ‘hot cat’ is a plasma device of some kind (as opposed to a nickel matrix reactor) then intense magnetic fields might be expected during operation.

  • V.p.S.

    I totally share Frank’s opinion that the certification process of home e-cats can be only completed only when enough data has been gathered from the industrial installations of e-cats. And I doubt that the first industrial adopters of the technology will be eager to share their experience in order to boost the technology arrival to the market. We are still living in the competing world where any such competitive advantage as e-cat (or any other available fusion reactors) will quickly become a part of the business strategy to make high profits with it and hide it completely or at least conceal important details from the competitors. Probably by the end of the year 2013 we’ll still just know that the industrial e-cat has been installed successfully and is still running customer acceptance test phase. Other installation are in preparation, but may be no word about the customer (NDA) or may be some spare press release with not too much data.

    Futhermore apart from all euphoria about the new era and the new world order coming with home e-cats – one should not be too naive. Unfortunately our world simply doesn’t work like this. This technology is fantastic, but it is by its nature too complicated to be used directly by ultimate consumers (average people in their homes). So cold fusion needs first to make its way through the intermediate stage of application in the industry (as with combined heat and power units for home usage). Now Rossi may say what he thinks about his plans with home e-cat, but if his industrial partner recognizes at some point that home e-cats would endanger its main multi-million business with large heating plants and power stations (code word: power grid), well, believe me – certification and approval process for it can be made arbitrary complex so that Rossi’s home e-cat would not make through it.

    Industry is the first in place to benefit from cold fusion. This will be definitely supported by goverments. The vast majority of ultimate consumers may need to wait much, much longer to fully enjoy the arrival of this new energy source.

    • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

      I know 14 year olds that build their own computers. This is probably 10 times harder than what it would take to put together an equivalent ecat.

      Here is an example
      1) NI DAQ/Control card free software
      2) Heater
      3) Some safe hydrogen source
      4) Nickel powder
      5) Plumbing equipment from home depot
      6) Misc parts

      And literally somebody could legally sell the NI/Data Acquisition Control card along with computer and software and the plumbing as one kit and you may be able to get the hydrogen and Nickel safely from somewhere else.

      All that’s missing is the secret recipe or I and several others would be selling the kits.

      • V.p.S.

        If you really think that after all years of hard cold fusion research with even some explosions happened in labs and still missing deep scientific understanding of the subatomic mystery making cold fusion possible, a wrongly assembled or should I say plumbed cold fusion reactor will be roughly equally safe as a wrongly assembled computer, well, then you must a very optimistic man! ;)

        Even if your point is generally valid, the term “legal” simply would no be applicable for such kind of installations en masse. Regulatory authorities in most countries would prohibit any self-made installations until cold fusion will reach the same safety rep as other household technologies. And the final decision about this will be totally in hands of implementing industry.

        • HeS

          @:”Even if your point is generally valid, the term “legal” ….”

          In many countries, domestic production of alcohol is prohibited and people illegally brew moonshine (black market is quite large:)

          • Hampus

            Ethanol is really flammable, just like cold fusion :)

            • jpelsor

              Let’s see – natural gas explosions take out houses, cars explode into flames when rear ended at certain speeds.Ground water is being regularly poisoned by ‘fraccing’ chemicals, mercury – producing birth defects is regularly found in light bulbs, thermostats, etc. Deaths occur annually in commercial flights and more often in private planes ‘certified’ by authorities. Drugs are released with undisclosed -sometimes fatal side effects. It’s all a matter of risk/reward ratio’s and who benefits monetarily. Certification will occur when it’s worth the right amount to the appropriate ‘authorities’. Not before

              • GreenWin

                Well put jpelsor.

        • New

          We will all die someday.
          Whats is more important is how we lived our lives, and why.

          • GreenWin

            @New: I believe you are right. I also believe we are seeing a transformation from fear driven human survival instinct to a broader, more compassionate consciousness. The elimination of false fear is fundamental to this process.

            Yours is a good comment. Thank you.

          • clovis

            That’s rather selfish don’t you think. what about the planet we leave our children.
            that’s what is the problem with the world today, heck just live it up, and let our children worry about how to clean our mess up, and they can keep on paying through the nose for power to warm and cool their homes.and getting them to work.

            • georgehants

              clovis, agreed but I think you may have misjudged New.
              He did not say live our lives for ourselves but “how we lived our lives, and why.”
              That implies that the “why” and “how” means what good we each do including for future generations.
              perhaps New would comment.
              Peace :)

              • New

                I agree with both of you, Green Win & Clovis and that was actually my point all though I am not good with words sometimes.
                / Peace

        • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

          VpS I never said it was equally safe.

        • Peter_Roe

          Physical risks as such don’t seem to be a problem, as evidenced by the fact that Fukushima and Chernobyl have only slightly crimped the continuing enthusiasm of some technically-challenged and/or pocketed politicians for nuclear fission. The only significant ‘risk’ factor for TPTB is any risk to profits and the status quo.

          Blocking of safety certification will only prevent the dissemination of commercially produced small CF reactors, but not the ‘home brewers’. I think that it is inevitable that legislation will be introduced worldwide at some point to make any experimentation or production of CF devices illegal, by classifying the technology as ‘nuclear’. In this way the authorities might hope to completely contain the technology, and to justify the use of armed force to keep it this way for as long as they wish. Some kind of ‘accident’ may be necessary to provide the pretext for such legislation – we know that large segments of the poulation are happy to accept further restrictions of many kinds (and in fact will often actually ‘demand’ such restrictions) if they are led to believe that their safety is threatened.

          It seems to me that the only way in which personal CF devices will ever be allowed to be sold will be if a scheme can be devised that allows both corporations and governments to skim large profits from usage of such devices on a ‘metered’ basis. This will probably not even be considered until such time as the exhaustion of oil and gas supplies is imminent.

          Bottom line – no one should be holding their breath. Home e-cats are not even on the distant horizon.

          • georgehants

            WEB NEWS
            Japan: anti-nuclear protests continue
            Anti-nuclear sentiment is strong in Japan following Fukushima and many are concerned by the government’s plans. This online petition, started by the “Goodbye to Nuclear” NGO has been signed by over 8 million people over the past few months, including some well-known faces like Kenaburo Oé who was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1994.
            And the campaigning isn’t just taking place online. Demonstrators have been taking to the streets of Japan on a regular basis, demanding a nuclear phase out and the introduction of alternative energy sources, this protest was staged last month in the town of Fukuoka in the south west. The rallies are coordinated via social networks, and generally speaking the majority of activists are women.
            http://www.france24.com/en/20130102-2013-01-02-2050-wb-en-webnews

            • Peter_Roe

              Morning George. I find it slightly surreal that Japanese politicians could even think of continuing along the nuclear road, even without the objection of at least 8 million of their citizens.

              All over the world, retarded politicians behave as if they could still keep things like the true extent of nuclear contamination or worldwide aerosol geoengineering under wraps (and that their predictable and unimaginative disinformation will be accepted without question) while the internet allows anyone to gather their own evidence and make their own judgements.

              • georgehants

                Morning Peter, one day when we are gone and preparing for our next reincarnation, when money and inherited power and position are abandoned, when people are judged and rewarded on their contribution to society as a whole, when the word Truth regains it’s meaning, when people care beyond their own small world and don’t have to worry about mortgages and the next gas bill etc. then just maybe the human race may begin to fulfill some of it’s amazing potential without the suffering and inequality that is common and rife today.

        • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

          Micrwave ovens did not need to prove “reputaion”
          as compare with other home devices. The domestic
          market was different in that the parts were more expensive in the early 1950′s than when the Amana
          was massed produced for the home in the 1960′s.

          I dont think parts prices are an issue with the
          domestic e-cat.

          • GreenWin

            This is a good example. The first commercial microwave came out of Ratheon’s radar division. Once they realized it could cook food rapidly the had commercial units on market in two year.

            Studies on microwave impact on food or humans continued long after products were on the market.

            • Peter_Roe

              Most studies on the effects of microwaving foods have been very negative. Destruction of enzymes, vitamins and amino acids, cross-linking and deformation of proteins and the formation of acrylonitriles and other plastic-like compounds to name but a few of the problems. There is also the problem of radiation leakage, particularly from older units.

              However, publication of this type of information tends to be suppressed by commercial interests, or met with the same kind of disinformation tro11ing as anything relating to cold fusion.

      • http://www.drboblog.com Bob

        Dear LCD

        I believe You are wrong. (And I will try to prove that to you)

        The recipe is not at all relevant.

        Demand is the only thing you have to think about. (Except ethics and moral)

        If you can provide “empty” reactors I am sure there are quite a few people out there willing to experiment and create their own “recipes”.

        If you are as handy as you say, then I recommend you start putting things together and then you let other people worry about “the recipe”.

        No one can do everything but everyone can do something.

        With Respect / Bob

        • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

          Bob I’m not entirely sure what you are saying I’m wrong about.

          I believe you and I are in agreement.

          There is currently not enough demand for a “bare” reactor as far as I can tell.

          • http://www.drboblog.com Bob

            Dear LCD,

            You obviously does not have a sales background.

            People do not buy what they need.
            People buy what they want.

            Also:

            Amateurs have been building and experimenting with Fusion and Plasma reactors at home long before LENR came into the picture.

            If you provide quality products at reasonable prices people will buy.

            If there is not a demand you can create a demand. (its called Marketing)

            There is 9 Billion people on this earth. Millions of people are born every week.
            All you only need is 1-3 buyers a month to make a good living out of this.

            Another possibility is a web store that acts like the middel hand to get prices down on components for LENR experiments. You could sell both to companies and universities, as well as to hobby enthusiasts.

            This is an awesome business opportunity for someone like you.
            (If you are as technical as you claim)

            If you are serious about your technical skills, than I think you should PM me, I am actually In need of someone that can help me with fiddling with electrical equipment.

            Peace / Bob

      • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

        I know 14 year olds that have built their own computers too, but I haven’t met one that has made his own microprocessor.

    • Omega Z

      V.p.S.

      I disagree on the data acquisition being hidden.
      The Design itself requires feedback to the manufacturer so as to monitor & improve the technology. Basically It’s required by Rossi to study the safety factors of long term operation.

      I would agree that the Data that’s obtained could be of a negative aspect in which they determine it’s unsafe for individual consumers. Real or Not.

      • V.p.S.

        It’s not about individual consumers, it’s about business, big business and taking benefit from its own market position. If the partner, which is a large plant manufacturer, will realize that they can make large profits with industrial e-cats, why would they want to support and speed up certification of domestic units in any way, knowing that availability of domestic e-cats on the market will steal a good portion of their business with industrial e-cat plants? Of course, sooner or later it will happen. I am just afraid it will take much longer than Rossi and his licensees in Europe forecast (may be not sooner than 2015).

        Nevertheless I hope that the data from the first industrial test phase will be very good and Leonardo Corp can still act as a completely independent e-cat manufacturer (no restricting contracts with the partner or whatsoever). This is something we currently cannot say for sure.

  • Roth

    The website of the Italian licensee (Prometeon) is quite clear re. the domestic Ecat: not before 2015 in Europe.

    Prometeon is aiming at customers who use 1 MW heat at least 18 hrs/day. For them the best solution would be a GasCat (heated by methane). For such customers paying 1 MEuros for a 1 MW unit would be a good investment.

    That price target is, however, 10-15 times higher/kW than that promised by AR for the domestic Ecat. As long as there is good market for 1 MW units, the domestic Ecat has to wait independently of certification.

  • GreenWin

    Makes perfect sense to roll out industrial power CHP units – let em burn in for 12-18 months, then apply the data to a “certified” branded home unit. District CHP is now on Steven Chu and DOE’s front burner.

    I could see a Google, Microsoft or Tesla Motors purchasing a hot-cat configured for CHP, using it as a very profitable marketing tool.

  • Lu

    Technically there is no law that requires a UL or other safety certification for the domestic E-Cat. Some municipalities may require such for installation but some may not. There is nothing stopping Rossi from selling the domestic E-Cat as far as I know in the US. There MAY be local ordinances that prohibit the installation of the domestic E-Cat but that is the purchasers problem :)

    • clovis

      HI, Lu.
      OH , but there is something stopping Mr. Rossi, that would be Mr. Rossi.
      He said, he would not sell anything to the public that might harm someone.
      not matter how remote the possibility and Regardless of any offical safety certificates. –smile

      • Lu

        I agree that Rossi is the reason why there is no domestic E-Cat in the US.

        • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

          If someone would take the risk of selling uncertified LENR devices for home use, he would select some other country than the US.

          • GreenWin

            I would imagine BORAT’s homeland might be interested.

          • Lu

            I disagree. There are many people in the US who would be willing to be early adopters or participate in a pilot program and have the means to do so for such a thing.

            It would also be in Rossi’s interest to do such a thing. Who really believes he would sell millions of a product without ANY consumer history? Rossi also has been quite deceitful/ignorant when stating there is a law providing a 60-day return guarantee in the US.

            Frankly his statements about the domestic E-Cat give the appearance of a scam.

            • http://www.shake-speares-bible.com psi

              “Rossi also has been quite deceitful/ignorant when stating there is a law providing a 60-day return guarantee in the US.”

              When did he say this? Link please.

              • Lu

                His quote to me, on February 29th, 2012 on his Journal, said:

                “4- As you know, by law a Customer has 60 days of time to give back the device if unsatisfied, and we give all the guarantees required by the law.”

                He had mentioned this before a number of times in interviews and responses to questions (and you can look this up as well as I can). After I responded and told him there is no such US law I was no longer able to post on his journal :)

                Rossi’s domestic E-Cat looks to me like a big scam to get distributors. There is just no way someone would commit to million unit production and not realize the difficulty in get UL certification to what is essential a nuclear device and on top of that to claim that it will essentially be and economic, plug-and-play with existing heating systems (a total misrepresentation for many if not most people).

              • Lu

                Sorry but my reply went into moderation….

              • Omega Z

                psi

                There is a 3 day buyers remorse law.
                After that, different states have different rules/time lines.

            • Omega Z

              Lu

              Your wrong about regs in the U.S.
              There’s some laxness in certain areas as in it’s not strongly enforced for minor things, but technically you cant replace a bathroom sink without redtape. And that’s if your the Owner.

              A new Electrical service requires 3 stages of inspection +fees & if you skip even 1, they can make you remove it & start over or if you argumentative about it they could create totally new problems for you.. Additional requirements.

              Also anything of a certain natures that doesn’t have UL certification null & Void any Insurance coverage & if it’s electrical can lead to power termination.

              Without certain certifications & Insurance, Should someone be harmed or killed, you can be legally liable for that up to & including manslaughter or murder.

              You’ll even find some Regulations between different Agencies at Odds with each other. If your in the Loop/business this isn’t a problem & can be taken care of in minutes.(No the Ropes) If your an outsider or fly by night, they can hold you up for days & even weeks or longer.

              Regs. There’s no stupid Regs.. That’s why some joking ask where do I get my permit should I need to take a crap while on the Job.

        • clovis

          HI, GUYS.
          When you say Mr. Rossi would do this , you miss judge his carecture, he would never sell one to anyone no matter where they lived, that just don’t make sence in the first place,

    • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

      But that’s silly to put out a device where the liability on it is possibly unbounded. Not to mention fraudulent claims. With a certification certificate you have some bounds.

      However putting out “kits” is a way around the liability issue. Sell the instructions/some parts, let customer put it together.

      • Owen

        I agree. This is the future for Black Cats. Billions of people rely on affordable energy and for sure they will buy a kit like this when it’s available and proven safe. All that’s missing are some technical details.

      • Omega Z

        LCD

        Even if you have a Certification, Your still Liable.
        Certification merely minimizes that Liability as long as it’s what was originally certified. Any changes have to be re-certified tho in most cases it’s just a matter of paper work & fees. That’s why UL has Millions of certifications every year. Minor changes.

        Something of the E-cat nature even in Kit form would at the very least null & void a homeowners insurance & most likely Codes if not certified. This would be required dis-closer to the customer.

        Should note: That even then should something happen, An investigation would go up the chain & land on the Distributor/Manufacturer of the Kit. All directly involved become Liable.

        Even UL can be held liable if it’s found they certified something that should turn out to be Unsafe beyond reason for it’s intended use.. Thus, their caution on certifying Products.

        • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

          So Omega if you re-read my post you’ll see that I don’t disagree with you on certification liability.

          On kit liability, sure they could go after anybody but it’s a lot harder to prosecute.

          You have to understand with a kit, it could be as simple as a parts list you go and buy on your own plus some software you download for free. Or it may be a shipment of parts from [fill in a country of your choice outside the U.S.A.].

          I think you are imagining something like an IKEA bookshelf.

  • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

    Thanks, Frank, for asking a question that I wanted answered.

  • Marc

    Come on guys. No need to bicker about certs, patents, and commercialization delays. We are intellectually invested in one thing – a new energy source. Once we have demonstrable excess heat, excess emf, or excess wattage numbers. Once the cat is out of the bag, done deal, new world order. The proof backed news will do the rest. I want the e-cats I’ve ordered and Rossi has promised to deliver, but I want the Rossi’s vision more.

  • Pweet

    Well that is strange isn’t it?
    On Mr. Rossi’s web site http://ecat.com/ecat-products/ecat-home the home e-cat is still listed for delivery in 2012 / 2013.
    It says, just put you name on the pre-sale list and they will let you know as soon as they are available.
    Unless one of the radiation fields emitted by the new hot-cat is a time warp field I think the 2012 delivery date is going to be hard to meet now. In fact the 2013 date is looking very doubtful at this stage too.

    In his blog he says; “It is necessary that a history of safe and reliable industrial plants makes up a lattice of good statistics before this certification becomes possible.”
    He also says; “believe me, there is no certificator in the world that will take the liability to certify a LENR device for domestic utilization. ”

    I take it from this that the certification will depend on the commercial units being in operation for some considerable time before the safety certificates are even considered.
    This may be difficult given that the “customer” is a highly secretive military customer who wishes to remain unidentified. I don’t think the certifying authority will accept operational statistics from an anonymous organisation.
    In fact, I don’t think anyone will.
    This also backs up my thoughts that a finished home e-cat has at this time, still not been submitted for approval.

    Does anyone have any indication that it has?

    • Redford

      I think the above from Rossi is an indication that it probably has, but that’s it’s not enough. The idea is that the authority regulation will consider positive testing by their service not sufficient to garranty safety, and extensive testing out of their scope.

      Actually, the sub text is probably rather that you can get a certification for a domestic eCat right now if you put big money on the tablet, financing extensive testing from private certification company. And that Rossi found an optimal way with his “big partner” doing this part.

    • Chris I

      The one about the time warp field was cute, but there is quite a flaw in your argument concerning the secret military customer. Your assumption is that not even the certifier could know who they are and exchange communication with them. What make you so certain of this? It is quite likely that, if the certifier signs appropriate documents, they could know what they need to know and receive documents from the military personnel in question.

      There’s a difference between saying that this military entity allows details to be broadcast to the general public or that it allows certain specific parties to be informed. I mean, by any chance, were you also assuming that not even Rossi, nor Fioravanti, know who they are?

      Goodness, you remind me of an old puzzle about two old school pals, where one poses a puzzle to the other; it may seem absurd but in actual fact it is solveable.

      • Moric

        I do think as well, that it should be possible to get data from the customer for certification needs.

        Military organisations are part of the public sector in their country and are ruled by the government department they belong to.

        So, when all we are told is fact, in the meantime we have 13x 100 = 1300 (not hot) e-cats running elsewhere, but under governmental control.

        IMHO each box is basicly a “home e-cat without case”.

        Hard to believe, that there is no way for a certification.

  • LCD

    I’m going to say it one more time for the people that don’t get it. If you want domestic ecats you don’t literally need domestic ecats. All you need is enough of the right people to know how any LENR+ technology works. After that happens the black market will be crawling with them.
    .
    This is actually the problem though. The black market will not care if they are safe or not. In fact a safe prediction can probably be made that if a controllable commercializable LENR+ tech does exist then a black market domestic ecat kit will exist before a certified domestic ecat does.
    .
    Furthermore another prediction can be made that if indeed Rossi is going to or actually is making commercial ecats of any kind then about one year from that point you would expect to see black market ecats. That is assuming of course there is more than just a few of these commercial ecats. That’s just reality.

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      The threat of black market devices emerging anyway adds pressure to the certificators to accept Rossi’s devices. It’s a smaller safety risk to have those in the market than underground ones.

      Now we also have Han Nee’s recipe, although it might be just patent trolling.

      • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

        Pekka I haven’t had a chance to look at Nee’s recipe, does it sound like it is complete? Should Jay’s company try to replicate it?

        • Peter_Roe

          The Han Nee application goes into great detail on the preparation of a compressed/sintered nickel ‘core’ (with many ‘catch-all’ excursions) but has little detail about construction of a reactor than Rossi’s application, and no operational or results data at all.

          The consensus seems to be that it is a piece of preemptive patent trolling based on web snippets and imagination, but take a look for yourself (it’s not a long document).

          http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/docservicepdf_pct/id00000019416232.pdf

        • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

          LCD: Nee’s recipe might be just trolling as said, but I cannot exclude the possibility that it could also be real. Or it could be both: somewhere in the large design space he tries to claim there is a point which produces some amount of power. To the question if Jay should do it: the a priori odds are probably rather small… but if he wants to try something, it could as well be this one.

      • Omega Z

        I agree with you Pekka.

        It looked more like a catch all & if just 1 little part is infringed on (or even appears to be) they turn the Dogs/Lawyers loose. Give me 200K or spend a Million in court.

        • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

          don’t they have to build a working reactor?

    • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

      Well I should probably add that if black market domestic ecat kits do end up somehow being unsafe (harmful radiation), then that could end up being sort of a nightmare.

  • daniel maris

    Strangely, before, Rossi never foresaw any possibility of safety issues in a domestic setting. I don’t know how to account for that lapse .

    • http://www.shake-speares-bible.com psi

      Daniel,

      I think your criticism is an overgeneralization. Rossi did not foresee the extent of the certification difficulty. This hardly seems implausible to me.

      “It is necessary that a history of safe and reliable industrial plants makes up a lattice of good statistics before this certification becomes possible.”

      Did you foresee this?

      • Pweet

        There is no problem here.
        Mr. Rossi himself said that the device emits no radiation. He gave that assurance to the civil authority in Florida. Just call it a water heater because that’s what it is, state an input power and an output rating and submit it.
        There are water heaters on the market with a COP of 3 and they all get certified as a matter of course.

      • daniel maris

        I certainly foresaw difficulties with nuclear fusion devices being put in people’s homes.

        I think the real point is that Rossi can clear the air on everything very simply by just putting up a 24/7 webcam vid showing one of his devices in operation on a continual basis. Hardly a lot to ask is it? He gives away no secrets but we see something in operation.

        Frankly I see no particular reason to believe what he says until he does something like that.

        • Omega Z

          daniel

          Aside from the time & expense which would be far more then many can imagine, A 24/7 video feed would prove Absolutely nothing.

          How much power is going in. How much is coming out. How do I know the Instruments aren’t rigged. How do I know how much water is actually going in & whats the true quality of the steam. I’m not there personally to verify any of this equipment or results. How do I know I can trust the person you placed there to verify this stuff.

          So other then a nice Video feed. It means Nada. Nothing.

    • Redford

      I do find it plausible. After all, it’s not common tu show up with a product working on theorical basis you genuinly acknowledge to be unknown not only to the rest of humanity but to yourself. I can picture Rossi thinking this would like with Petrodragon, not realising that claiming fusion in the process made it an entirely different item for certification than waste management.

    • Omega Z

      daniel

      No, I think Rossi was very aware of this possibility back in Early 2011.
      Statements to the Effect, the Commercial route was already plan B. Rossi’s personal knowledge of the E-cats safety may have lead him to be overly optimistic in certification As psi states. The Certifying Entity hasn’t that personal experience with the E-cat to draw from.

      Then they pulled out the wild card of unknown factors to boot. This unknown factor may well be legit, but could also be a delaying tactic by unseen entities.

  • Jonas

    Very discomforting. My hope now stands to the Celani wire (not looking too good as of yet, though), and the other little projects out there. Perhaps even Defkalion might still surprise us, although they are sure to experience the same certification trouble… I hope there will soon be a home kit available, making it possible to build something yourself by buying ‘legal’ parts, and putting it together yourself.

    • Pweet

      If Mr. Rossi has nothing, then logically Defkalion have nothing squared.
      They got their technology from Rossi. They said this themselves and the description of their device was identical to that of Mr. Rossi.
      They originally said they had a working reactor given to them by Mr. Rossi when they were in partnership and it is reasonable to expect they would copy that
      Mr. Rossi said they were not given a working reactor and it is now a reasonable assumption that in this point, Mr. Rossi was telling the truth, simply because at that time there was not a working reactor. There probably still isn’t.
      This would explain why Defkalion have been completely unable to produce a working reactor with third party verification as they said they would, by mid last year, 2012.
      They believed Mr. Rossi when he told them he had reactors which worked and because of this they surmised that since they had the basic design of the reactor from Rossi, with some clever people, they could put the finishing touches to it in a few months and come up with a working device. Unfortunately this plan had one fatal flaw.
      The reactor they copied was not workable.

      To assume Defkalion can come up with a working device would require that the technology be so obvious that many scientists with the information given in the various patent applications can come up with a workable device in short order. So far that has not happened.

      It will be interesting to see if Mr, Han Nee comes up with anything workable. If it is just a carpet bombing patent application in order to pre-empt someone else’s design, and it looks as though it is, then they will also have nothing and in all probability, come up with nothing.

      It would be nice to see something come from the MFMP program but at this point I see the best hope of anything significant being achieved is with some of the better equipped and funded research programs being carried out by other organisations such as the recently announced Toyota / Mitsubishi tests.
      I think there will be many others running similar programs and I think we can thank Mr. Rossi for that much at least

      • http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php AlainCo

        read how Defkalion claim to have worked… reading papers, making test… that is normal engineering. like me they discovered that there is a huge body of experimental papers, with many tested ideas, with many failures (giving hint on what not to do)…

        maybe defkalion understood what Rossi do, maybe even after finding their first results, but from what they said, what they build, it is clear that they find that Rossi method is not good…

        they don’t use thermal shock like rossi, but plasma excitation.

        The Nelson report give no doubt that they have a device that is controllable, much more than early Rossi in 2011. The fact that Nelso enjoyed som freedom to play with the reactor is the best evidece that defkalion know thet their device work well…
        Nelson first test are not fantastic because of low temperature, and that can be expected.

        read the interview of stremmenos, of charichristos by p gluck, their papers at ICCF17, the Nelson test reports… it will be clear
        you should find thos data on lenr-forum
        http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php?tag=defkalion
        more precisely
        http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php?tag=defkalion&tag=gluck
        http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php?tag=defkalion&tag=stremmenos
        http://www.lenr-forum.com/tags.php?tag=defkalion&tag=iccf17

        I’ve just tagged the database…

        • Omega Z

          I think Defkalion had a lot of details of Rossi’s E-cat. But not all. And Pweet is right that at that Time Rossi still had problems to work out.

          Striking out in their own direction was the only real option they had. Why build an E-cat that they legally couldn’t market. There would be little doubt that they copied it. You’ve lost before even going to court.
          Personally I think they have a product but have problems to overcome before it’s ready for market.

          As for the falling out between Defkalion & Rossi. It’s probably both at fault.

          Rossi comes across as a nice guy & probably is. I’ve known people like him. Just don’t feed him after midnight.

        • Pweet

          Interesting links but unfortunately it is still only more words relating to amazing claims.

          I would have to confess my opinions on Defkalion are biased in the negative because early in 2012 when they were claiming they had working devices which they would unveil in July 2012, when I looked up their licence agreements which on the face of it were supposed to be licences to sell the Hyperion reactors, which cost 40 million euros by the way, the wording of the agreement was more along the lines of being a partner in the financing of research. In other words, the so called license fee was nothing more than a 40 million euro contribution to their ongoing running costs.
          It did say that it would entitle the licensee to the rights to sell Defkalion products but it did not say what those products might be and it did not make any claim as to what those “products” might actually do. If they had only ever produced paper cups then that would fulfil the terms of the agreement. I found that very deceiving and since they never came up with anything in June or July 2012 I have viewed everything they say from the perspective of that background.
          The text of the agreement seems to have disappeared along with the rest of their web site since moving to Canada. The present web site is still under construction and has been for months.
          It’s hard to understand why that might be because they could have simply kept the old site operating until such time as the new one was up and running. I can only imagine it was to rid themselves of the unsubstantiated claims made on the old website.

          So in the light of all this, If they suddenly come up with something amazing I will be really happy but from past and present indications, I think it is unlikely. I think they will continue to run true to past form.