MFMP Team Questions Some Celani Conclusions

In a post on the Quantum Heat web site, the HUG team in Minnesota make some observations about the Celani cell that are causing them to question some of the measurements that Francesco Celani assumes to be excess heat. In the post titled “A Partial Explanation” there is a detailed analysis of the relationship between power output of the cell, and the reduction of gas pressure within the sealed cylinder. In the post, Ryan Hunt details various tests the team carried out and makes this statement:

As a preliminary result, it appears that this pressure related temperature change in Hydrogen could account for the vast majority of the demonstrated rise in power in Celani’s graph above the 10 watt baseline that the run starts at. It is unclear to me how he established his base line for that experiment that resulted in showing approximately 10 watts during the loading in the blended gas, and at the start of the Hydrogen phase.

This explanation does not at all address the measured gamma rays coinciding with hot spots in the wire. It also does not address the test runs he mentions in the calorimeter.

Ryan says that he has been in touch with Celani who has responded that he is happy to work with the team and answer any question. The MFMP team is getting a lot of input from “the crowd” on their site, and seem to be very happy with the ideas they are getting from many posters. It’s nice to see the open science approach that is made possible by the Internet taking place in this project.

  • Babble

    I think Bing translate does a better job than Google. You must copy/paste a section at a time into the translate box. Give it a try to see if there is an improved translation.
    http://www.bing.com/translator/?ref=TThis&from=es-ES&to=en-US

  • Sergio

    OT: On the back of Nature journal of 15 Nov 2012, vol 491, no 7424, there is a report of a fusion achieved by Hamamatsu Photonics (http://jp.hamamatsu.com/en/rd/publication), albeit it is unclear if it is “cold” enough, I haven’t looked into it further. (They talk about “limitless energy from the sea”)

  • clovis

    Hi, Bob Greenyer.
    I was just wondering if it would be possible that we could have video that we might feel more involved with what is going on when your team is at work, for the one’s that just can’t get enough,this project could be world changing, and should be recorded for posterity, now i know that means installing a web cam, it shouldn’t be to much trouble, but shouldn’t effect your work, well maybe a first , but it well soon become routine, just thought i would see what you thought about it.–Clovis

    • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

      Hi Clovis,

      Well, I know it is not quite what you are after, but we have just posted a sneak peak to what is about to start the data flood here:

      http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/follow/167-data-flood

      When we have established a viable experiment to distribute globally, it is intended that they have a webcam there taking a picture every minute.

      We are recording as much as possible in HD and have just decided to try and record as much of our internal discussions too. This will all feed into a Documentary Video we see as a key component of our soon to be launched Kickstarter campaign.

      • clovis

        Thanks buddy,
        It all sounds great,

  • georgehants

    Well, no interesting news today, perhaps it’s all being saved up for Dec. 21st. or Mr. Rossi’s third party release soon.
    Like to know more about Sanjeev’s link to superconductivity.

  • Stephen

    Thank you for your work… it’s great to see people looking at this business with an open-minded and constructive attitude. We need this. Regardless the final conclusion (which we don’t know, otherwise they would not call it “research”). As long as it’s all open and serious, this will always be a valuable step forward.

  • Sanjeev
    • Alan DeAngelis

      Wow, “superconductivity at 340 degrees Celsius!”
      Perhaps a Cooper pair formation of electrons (2- ) in the conduction band induces a boson pair formation of protons (a 2+ hole) in the valance band (or vice versa) that can stabilize each other at elevated temperatures.

      • artefact

        If Rossis process works in the same way than superconductivity at over 1000 degrees Celsius could be possible…

        I like:
        “The whole thing was to break the
        Coulomb barrier and all that was needed was to open up the appropriate
        tunnel. We managed playing with the geometry of crystals of nickel and
        layout plasma reactor”

        • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

          Defkalion and Rossi work on the same physical principle. the technological application of that physics has, however, forked due to their acrimonious split.

      • Stephen

        SC at room temperature and above has already been discovered: u can find it in Avatar :)

        Please, here we are talking about breakthroughs which are so big that cannot be missed or obfuscated. If you are wondering whether it’s real or not… just ask yourself if it’s on the market. If it’s not out there after a reasonable time, it’s not real.

        Btw, what is the supposed link between nuclear reactions and superconductivity? I am not sure I got it…

        • warp

          >Avatar
          Great movie, terrible everything else.

          >what is the supposed link between nuclear reactions and superconductivity?
          Probably that strong or weak nuclear forces are what create coulomb pairings in normal superconductors, and that the exacerbation of the nuclear forces’ affects through other means may allow for the nuclear force effects to overpower the energetic noise of the material’s temperature.
          Then again, I just made this up after reading some of the other comments.

    • Pedro

      There is a wealth of info in Alainco’s summary of the article at http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=921#p3158
      Would be great if somebody who speaks greek could make a human translation for some of the more interesting parts because Google is not very good at translating Greek.

      Issues I found interesting…
      – catalyst potasium and possibly barium and strontium
      – superconductivity at 340 celcius
      – Defkalion has so far had 247 visiting scientists
      – greek governement refused to give “green” status to LENR
      – all promises from Greek Governement proved false (heard that before)
      – director of NSA visited (roads were blocked for him)
      – They spoke with Barosso (so politics should know about LENR by now)
      – offers from Chinese, Turkish and all major indistrual nations
      – preliminary agreements with 80 manufacturing companies on all continents
      – interest from airplane, car and ship builders for joint engine development
      – big oil: 10 years ago we would be dead, now they are no threat (Rossi said this also a few weeks ago)
      – Exxon sees LENR not as competition
      – some reference to the Shell Gamechanger program for support of new ideas in energy technology

      These are BIG claims, made by Defkalion in a 2 page article in an important Greek news paper… are they all true? If yes, then there is much more going on under the surface then we know.

      • Mark

        And they also found The Ark Of Covenant.
        They showed it to 247 visiting scientists
        under NDA

        • Garry

          Oh please. Everyone knows that got stored in the giant government warehouse at the end of “Raiders of the Lost Ark”. Please know your history.

          • Mark

            Garry,
            It is time to rewrite history
            and physics from scratch.
            Give Defkalion this opportunity.
            247 visiting scientists might help.
            The Bible had only 12 such men
            and look what they had done.

          • GreenWin

            I believe that is Warehouse 13. That’s where they keep the gnostic gospels and Aristotle’s essays on Truth.

      • warp

        - Exxon sees LENR not as competition
        – some reference to the Shell Gamechanger program for support of new ideas in energy technology

        Finally, some financial sensibility from big oil.
        Why waste money squashing an invention, when you could just as readily buy stocks in it and continue to profit long after your own mode of production has become obsolete?

  • buffalo

    i suggest the team throw the celani ‘special’ wire out and put in a plain ol nickel wire electrocoated with nickel black and try this.its time to get back to lenr basics and work from there up.the chances for successful exess heat may be better using original nickel than constintan alloy.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    I congratulate this group. The open science model they are developing could be a model for any number of important scientific discoveries/developments

    • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

      Thanks Bernie,

      It is important that we maintain utter integrity and credibility throughout if we are going to establish a repeatable means of proving the New Fire incontrovertibly.

  • daniel maris

    Al Potenza’s suggestion seems the most sensible – use lots of wires together so you can tell the signal from the noise. It seems extremely odd that there are a only a few of these wires on offer.

    • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

      Hi Daniel,

      There are many requests for Celani to provide wires to people, we feel privileged. Rest assured there will be many wires to test and in many ways. We are learning the Macro stuff and then digging deeper – expect a data flood.

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      I’m not sure if adding wires would help in this setup, because systematic errors seem to be the issue rather than noise.

      Right now the EU cell starts to display an impedance anomaly effect again (the second time today, the first was about 10-14 hours ago). It’s surprising because this wire was made inactive. The question is, is it some error in the setup (electronics problem, or a bit of current leaking through something else than the wire) or did some hydrogen get into the wire despite the covering oxide layer.

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        The impedance anomaly seems to start at the same temperature as the first time (T_mica=210 C) although the pressure is now much lower (0.7 vs. 1.5 bar). So temperature seems to control it rather than pressure. Interesting to see if the anomaly again stops in the same temperature as before, at T_mica=230..240 or so.

  • jpelsor

    I believe if you read further on the MFMP site they also cite other studies that claim pressure changes down do not increase heat output. As I am not a scientist I won’t claim that this is so – just urging readers to read the whole explanation and comments so that the questions and research can productively exam what is happening.
    The extreme sensitivity of each factor and the wild variation in results remind me of why I dropped out of organic chemistry in college. My results just would be all over the place no matter how well I thought I was following the directions – and that was with well established classroom/lab ‘experiments’
    My admiration and respect goes out to these folks brave enough to follow the data rather than making the data fit their preconceptions.

    • Martin

      My admiration and respect goes out to these folks brave enough to follow the data rather than making the data fit their preconceptions

      Well Said!

    • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

      The title “A Partial Explanation?”, is posed as a question.

      We seam to have found something interesting, but the question is, is it something related to our cell, the glass choice, the wire used for calibration, the lexan shield etc. etc. The EU cell is much closer to the Celani original and is in the process of concluding calibration runs.

      We expect that within one week we will start active wire tests in the European cell.

  • John-xyz

    I wonder how the experimenters at MIT are feeling right now. They had that little experiment working out of a plastic lunch container for maybe a year now and now MFMP have stolen the DIY limelight in just a few weeks or so.

    • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

      Hi John-xyz,

      We want to facilitate distribution of the NANOR to respected institutions and are trying to make this happen.

      Watch this space.

  • clovis

    Hello, everyone.
    The guys are doing great research, Celani cell is only one part, i think it was chosen because it seemed the most reproducible,they are gaining lots of data that was not available before, now they have their own data base in which to work from, good stuff guys, now lets make old Celani set up and pay attention, smile,