Light the New Fire (MFMP Video)

In addition to their LENR replication work, the folks at the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project are also getting involved in some more general media production activity as a means of spreading awareness about the new fire. It seems to me that the two activities need to go hand in hand. If you have successful replication, you have to find ways to effectively promote it, and for a media campaign to be effective, you need solid data to back it up. The work on the Celani cells continues with the MFMP team working on trying to demonstrate excess heat in a clear an unambiguous way.

  • Stephen

    Btw, could they demonstrate excess energy?

  • John-xyz

    My money is on MFMP providing verifiable proof of transmutation before Rossi doing so.

  • georgehants

    Koen Vandewalle
    November 17th, 2012 at 6:08 AM
    Dear Andrea Rossi,
    derived from all questions and answers, I’m ready to believe that there will be no home-ecats. Affordable electricity will be good enough.
    Kind Regards,
    Koen
    Andrea Rossi
    November 17th, 2012 at 7:14 AM
    Dear Koen Vandewalle:
    In the short term you are right. In the long term I hope not, because statistics with the industrial plants will open the gate to the certification of the domestic apparatuses.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Alan DeAngelis
    • Pedro

      Centralised lenr is no solution. The electricity price that end customers pay consist only for a small part of the fuel costs. Even if the fuel price would become 0, your energy bill would not change that much.
      The only true solution is co-generation at home. Therefor the home cat should be the ultimate goal. Rossi seems to agree!

  • Renzo

    All is quiet on the Rossi front, while we wait for the report here is a brief Q&A on Passerini blog:

    @Franco Morici
    The post talks about: “experimental setting, instrumentation (National Instruments, of course), calibration, procedures, records and so on, this time were “watertight”; regardless of the results of tests and the indefinite waiting, if these tests were carried out, and in particular by a University, there should have been for a long time a testing procedure that defines the tests to be conducted, the necessary equipment and experimental setting with the mode of carrying them out. Is there such a document? Where can we find it?

    @Daniele Passerini
    I’m sorry but I can not satisfy your (and many others’) legitimate curiosity. Deliberately I did not want to give any information on which University is involved. And I’m not going to give it and thereby breaking the commitment that I have taken. I will continue to act as a lightning rod and intercept smiles, jokes, accusations, insults, etc.. of those who believe to the core that I talk nonsense. I’m not talking about you, of course, you’re a completely fair and pleasant person. Sooner or later the truth will come out and I don’t ask for more. Then justice will be done to all the gossips.

    • Torbjörn

      The homeopathy believer (pseudoscience) Daniele Passerini has probably been told by his friend Giuseppe Levi that the tests show that the Hot Cat works.
      But Levi are not a third pary tester, he works for Rossi.

      • Renzo

        here’s another troll writing nonsense, I hope their time is almost over

        • Torbjörn

          I’m not a troll. I know that the low temp E-Cat works.

          • georgehants

            Torbjörn, you appear to have determined that homeopathy is “(pseudoscience)”.
            I will assume that you are not keeping up with the scientific investigation of water memory.

            • Torbjörn

              That is correct.

              • georgehants

                Then I would be interested how you determine that it is — “pseudoscience”

                • Torbjörn

                  It is just about placebo an nocebo effects (which exist). If you know it is only sugar it wont work.

                • georgehants

                  Torbjörn, you seem to keep giving “opinions” but stating them as facts.
                  I would agree that it is difficult to differentiate between The Placebo Effects and Homoeopathy but who is giving you the Evidence for your views before the research has determined the outcome.
                  http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/dec/22/placebo-effect-patients-sham-drug

                • Iggy Dalrymple

                  I’d rather be in pain and not feel it than be pain-free and feel otherwise. Like most people, I live in my head.

                • Iggy Dalrymple

                  Torbjörn – “It is just about placebo an nocebo effects (which exist). If you know it is only sugar it wont work.”

                  What if you think it’s a sugar-pill and it’s really potent stuff? Then you’ll never trust sugar again.

                • GreenWin

                  Goodbye Twinkies…

        • Peter_Roe

          Unemployment rates for shills must already be high with ECN closed to comments.

          • Torbjörn

            I was just trying to point out that Passerini is not a 100% reliable source.
            I have never commented on ECN.

            • Peter_Roe

              Just a general observation relating to people who post intentionally destructive comments.

      • Chris

        I’m no homeopathy believer and Passerini is definitely not a scientist, but you should get facts straight, AFAIK Levi works only for the University of Bologna (while Focardi is retired from it and has acted as a consultant for Rossi). Levi says that he went to see Rossi’s work to determine whether it was BS and he says he was very skeptical, until he saw enough to convince him. He is said to be there as an observer on behalf of Unibo, which has been following Rossi’s work with interest.

        No doubt Levi is a colleague of Focardi and has had quite some involvement as an observer, so he isn’t the most third party you could get your hands on. But, perhaps, I guess anybody who has seen enough to be convinced is automatically not third party.

        • Torbjörn

          I know, but you are not third party when you currently work for Rossi.

          • Renzo

            so if a previous skeptics (Levi) becomes a Rossi supporter he’s not more “third-party” and cannot be trusted. You cannot ask for a more perfect example of pseudo-skepticism

            • Torbjörn

              I agree, but this is about the Hot Cat, not the low temp E-Cat.

          • Chris

            Did you read my post at all?

            Levi is salaried by Unibo, he is a confirmed researcher there. He is an observer on their behalf. Do you know of any form of contract between Levi and Rossi by which you repeat that the former works for the latter? Even just reasonable grounds to suspect so? At the very most, his independence is tainted by ties with Focardi.

            • Torbjörn

              Rossi have said that Levi works for him.
              Looks like NI is currently sponsoring Levi for R&D.

              http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/07/national-instruments-deeply-involved-with-many-lenr-projects/

              In other words neither Levi or NI are third party.

              So the question (and my point) is if Passerini gets his information directly from the third pary testers.

              • Renzo

                This is ludricous: so if anyone has a connection with Rossi he automatically stops to be a reliable source. I guess the same will happen with the university, if the tests are positive.
                I wonder if you’re trolling or really believe what you say, but please stop further embarassing yourself!!!

                • Torbjörn

                  No i did not mean that. Stop missunderstanding me.

        • georgehants

          Chris, I must ask, why in science would it make any difference as to what one believes.
          Surly you agree that only the Truth matters and Evidence and research will bring the correct answers.
          Opinions and beliefs are a personal thing, that are fun and interesting to pass time, but have absolutely no place in Science.

          • Chris

            What exactly are you objecting to? I said nothing evil. I think this isn’t quite the right place to get into a debate about epistemology anyhow.

            • georgehants

              Gentlemen, Chris, I was asking if it was an opinion, as it seemed to come across as a factual statement.
              I have made clear many times that opinion is important and fun, as long as nobody tries to hide their opinions as if they are facts.
              Once again the incompetence of science can be seen, that it has not in all this time developed a language that clearly allows a person to easily differentiate between opinion and fact in conversation or writing.
              As Cold fusion has been and is debunked and denied by much of science, this is exactly the place to get involved in other scientific subjects that are equally denied and debunked.
              I care about all True scientists battling the establishment and Dogma not just the few in Cold Fusion.
              I am discussing what is known about these subjects “ontology”, not how we know what we know “epistemology”.

          • John-xyz

            If opinions didn’t matter, there wouldn’t be a comments section on each post. We’d just read it, then go on with our lives. No need to comment.

      • Jim

        re homeopathy: have you ever tried it? That would provide you with additional information about it. It’s available in thousands of retail outlets around the world, there are hundreds of books on how to use it, so you can just walk right in and give it a try, without having to go to one of the thousands of licensed MDs around the world that prescribe it, including the physicians to the British royal family.

        It works for lots of different things. It’s also used for pets. They’re a little fuzzy on the whole “know it’s only sugar, it won’t work” thing.

        Seriously. Just try it. If you still think its placebo after you actually try it, fine. But until you try it, you really haven’t considered all the readily available knowledge about it.

        One easy way to try it is to wait until you have a bruise or a sore muscle, rub some homeopathic Arnica ointment on it, and ask yourself if that made the sensation change, and if so, why.

        Also, you have to be careful about challenging people’s credibility on the basis of their beliefs. Your blanket declaration of homeopathy as pseudoscience was not a great opening post as far as establishing yourself as an open minded, well-informed, credible person.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          Ineffective homeopathic products are usually too cheap. Solution: Raise the price.

          • Jim

            And I will be the first to admit that there is a lot of bad pseudo-homeopathy out there. Just like there are a lot of bad “free energy” claims out there.

            Fortunately for homeopathy, it’s a lot easier to personally validate than LENR.

            And one of the best things about homeopathy, if you try it and notice changes to your being, and you can’t explain it, is that it creates a powerful, visceral understanding that contemporary science really, actually and in fact does not have all the answers, and more important, that reality has more possibilities in it than we can yet even see.

            • Iggy Dalrymple

              I’m not knocking homeopathy and I’m not knocking placebo effect. Like I said earlier, being well and feeling bad isn’t any better than feeling good and being ill.

              Oscillococcinum seems to help but I get a cold or flu so infrequently that by the time I need it, I’ve forgotten about it.

              Usually at the earliest sign of a sore throat, I take 200,000iu of vit D3 and by morning I’m over it.

            • Iggy Dalrymple

              Oscillococcinum seems to help but I get a cold or flu so infrequently that by the time I need it, I’ve forgotten about it.

              Usually at the earliest sign of a sore throat, I take 200,000iu of vit D3 and by morning I’m over it.

              The greatest supplement that I’ve found that helps my 94 yr old mother is a liposomal called Symplex-C. I believe it saved her life, but it seems to only be really useful when a person is very weak.

        • Chris

          Are you sure the arnica ointment you’ve used is a homeopathic product? What dilution?

          Looking up, I found that topical products are indeed used for the purpose you describe, but aren’t homeopathic and should never be used where the skin is cut. I found that it is used for some homeopathic products too, for internal use. Would you feel safe about ingesting the ointment you are talking about?

          • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

            I’ve just been reading up on the Arnica plant and its ointment derivative on Wikipedia. The paste made from the plant, undiluted, is a powerful muscle relaxant, and hence used for sports injuries. However it is also a serious poison if ingested and will cause heavy intestinal bleeding. So the diluted version is sold as a 24X paste. And this is where the controversy starts. Will this dilute version cause the intestinal bleeding and also soothe sporting sprains? Or will it just do the good thing (soothe) and not the bad(internal bleeding)? The latter is found to be false by double blind testing.

      • artefact

        you mean that no one who believes for example in god is trustworthy??

        • Torbjörn

          No, i just dislike pseudoscience.

          • georgehants

            Torbjörn, please name one proven “pseudoscience.”

            • Chris

              N-rays!

              :-D

              • georgehants

                Know nothing about N-rays but have they been proven not to exist.
                How was it found out they do not exist.
                ===
                :) for you as well.

  • georgehants

    Just interesting that after thousands of years of known altered consciousness effects, our wonderful scientists actually raise the courage to take a peek.
    Is it possible that science is maturing beyond children playing with Lego.
    ——
    Machines Like Us
    Scientists study the trance state
    Saturday, 17 November 2012
    “This first-ever neuroscientific evaluation of mediumistic trance states reveals some exciting data to improve our understanding of the mind and its relationship with the brain. These findings deserve further investigation both in terms of replication and explanatory hypotheses,” states Newberg.
    http://machineslikeus.com/news/scientists-study-trance-state
    ——
    “We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men.”
    ~George Orwell

  • Andrew Macleod

    Off topic: I thought this would intrest some readers here. Scientists use sunlight, nano crystals and a cheap nickel catalyst to create hydrogen at high efficiencies. Sounds similar to an Italian recipe I once heard.

    http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/nov/09/nanocrystals-produce-hydrogen-using-sunlight

    • http://www.lenr-cars.com Nicolas Chauvin

      And at EPFL, scientists are working on an even cheaper process using iron oxide:
      http://actu.epfl.ch/news/using-rust-and-water-to-store-solar-energy-as-hydr/

    • Jim

      I’m pretty excited about these nano-level energy capture systems. In solar technology, this is like going from the vacuum tube era to the integrated circuit era. Consider how much change that created. I don’t see any reason why the same progression won’t apply to LENR. While I’m overly disposed to science fiction thinking, when you bring in distributed 3D fabrication, it’s not hard to imagine a world 20 years from now where having all the energy we need, where we need it, at minimal cost, is just not a problem any more. It might seem crazy, but in 1981, around the time of the first PCs, an iPhone would have looked like something out of StarTrek. 26 years later, in 2007, they’re available down at ye olde wireless carrier shoppe. And technology growth in the next 20 years will be much faster than in the last 20.

  • stuey81

    stuey81 on November 17, 2012 at 1:29 am

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    clovis you wrote this the other day :the e-cat LT, is now being installed in a real working power plant it will be delivering steam to their plant and will be ready for public inspection probably by christmas

    how do you know that?

  • stuey81

    are all comments now moderated before being allowed up?

    • stuey81

      well looks like that one was allowed thru…..admin can we have a list of the words that auto moderator doesnt like please, its a bit painfull, and if we knew what it didnt like we could avoid getting modded out!

      thanks

      • stuey81

        it apears auto mod doesnt like smiley faces, what the?

        • GreenWin

          stuey… forget the word list and just write your truth. You may be surprised.

    • captain

      From now?
      It’s from some days that for me too that happens, and other strange things too, not seen before by me.
      It’s like discouraging visitors to post here, this is my impression :-(

  • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

    Hi all,

    May I first say thankyou to Ronnie Johnston AKA Tangled Connections on the MFMP forum for kindly giving of his time to put this punchy spot together. He is one of many that are finding ways to really add value and help us take this project forward – this kind of collaboration helps us get through the long hours – and makes it fun.

    Many are asking, are we there yet? Pons and Fleischmann had their 4 years of work rubbished based on a few weeks of testing, we are not that kind of operation. Celani has had 23 years experience and over 20 months on this current track, he is closely working with us and we extend our thanks to him for his open approach.

    We are 1 week testing a Celani wire, of which we have a limited number, having left Korea less than 3 months ago. In this week we were amazed to find very similar results as Celani when we attempted to load the wire for the first time – this was a huge success and was clearly demonstrated.

    What was less clear was if were we getting excess heat or not. It would have been something miraculous to have done this on the first attempt, we had our first comparative metric based on T-Mica calibration and this was reporting 7-8W excess and this made us uncomfortable, so we went to another metric based on the T-Glassout which gave us a much less glamorous result. Debate has included discussions on calibration, wire placement, IR thermalisation in the Mica but not in the Quartz glass tube etc. Debate is good. We want to be challenged now – whilst the research is developing – not afterwards when it appears there is something to say. Constructive criticism allows us to advance and hone the work we do.

    We want to prove to ourselves that the effect can be repeatedly replicated first. We want total credibility. By publishing live data – the crowd is able to spot the good and the bad and we are working through all the bugs in the experiment set-up, control and data collection.

    We have identified many things that we have fixed and others that are being worked on. The experience of this first week is guiding our forward planning and that is how this live testing works. People that are engaging with us are helping guide the planning. The overall plan is the same as it always was, get a reliable New Fire experiment out across the globe to encourage wide scale awareness of the field and accelerate exploration of it.

    We aim to produce a summary of what was found, fixed and advanced during this week and where we plan to go moving forward and you can rest assured, we have robust plans in the works.

    You will also start to see our team grow.

    We will also be opening up the code to the realtime data logger/visualiser and other project related software as we have done with the release of our recent data analysis tool. We hope that interested capable people out there might help dig into this code and bring in analysis and better visualisation functions to make this story far easier to follow for everyone.

    Special thanks to all the donors out there – if you are tracking our costs spreadsheet you will start to see more of our costs logged on there that are now being funded by the generosity of interested onlookers.

    • Barry

      Bob, thanks for the transparency.

    • Karl

      Certainly, very encouraging and enlightening

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    MFMP’s reactor seemed to suck energy from the room at 15 minutes past midnight.

    http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/replicate/progress-blog

  • http://www.lenrweb.com tyler

    This is a bit off topic but I feel I need to reply. I just read quite a bit of baloney about myself over at Shutdown Rossi. I tried post my response on e-catnews where it is being discussed, but the comments at the site are now shut down.

    http://shutdownrossi.com/rossis-partners-investors/tyler-van-houwelingen-apologetics-for-rossi/

    I respectfully ask that Gary Wright remove the false information about me from his website. Nearly everything he says about me is not true. Here are the facts and my response to Gary’s accusations:

    1. I am certain LENR is real and am a strong advocate of LENR, but I am NOT in any way a shill for Rossi. I have absolutely no connection to Rossi and do not care who invests in him or his partners or not. I have not ever met him, sent him an email, posted to his blog, called him, or contacted him in any way; nor has he ever contacted me. I have absolutely no direct connection to him, nor any investment into his firm or a derivation thereof. (If I was a betting man, I personally would put my money on Brillouin or MFMP at this point rather than rossi. They both seem to be going somewhere. As for Rossi, I hope he has what he says as it would be spectacular and game changing, but I have not invested my own money in him and do not plan on doing so.)

    2. I originally made the LENR presentation for myself in late 2011/early 2012, attempting to analyze if lenr and lenr+ could actually be real and later shared it with a few friends of mine invested in solar and ng. I did not intend to share it broadly. Frank Acland found a draft of it one day and published it to e-catworld, which was then reprinted by other sites. I have since continued to refine and link to the facts in a clear manner, highlighting anything that is circumstantial as circumstantial, which includes nearly every item shown in the document about Rossi, DGT, Brillouin, LENR+, etc.

    3. Days after the presentation was posted on e-catworld, I was invited to Korea by Frank Gordon, formerly Navy SPAWAR, to present at ICCF-17, which was this year was about the potential commercialization of LENR. (Fitting topic given my presentation content) I was thrilled to be invited and share MY facts, while incorporating facts/opinions from the conference to improve the doc and my knowledge. I met nearly all the key players in the field for the first time, as well as the future co-founding partners of MFMP. I got to see a robust LENR demo from Celani working for days with a publicly traded firm’s engineers performing all the measurements and confirming excess heat.

    4. If someone has issue with the facts shown in LENRProof.com please act as a true scientist/engineer/professional would and send me an email indicating specifically what you believe is incorrect and provide a source and I will refine or edit the doc. I have received many such emails and made several alterations. The facts, I believe are compelling enough and speak for themselves.

    I consider myself to be a person of integrity and ethics who is very much in touch with reality and tech/energy strategy, so please Gary take down the false statements about me and instead let’s have a conversation about the facts surrounding LENR.

    Regards,
    Tyler

    • GreenWin

      Tyler, like many who suddenly find themselves in a spotlight, let me remind you… YOU are not what patho-skeps write about you. Patho-skeps like G Wright have absolutely zero influence in this world… unless you give it to them.

      We here, rooted in the sober world of evidence-science know your good intent, and the infantile whinings of the Wright school of patho-skeps will never diminish that. Walk on brother.

      • georgehants

        Agreed.

      • Peter_Roe

        And again. There is certainly no need to justify your stance here, Tyler, but I appreciate your reasons for wanting to state your case. Wright’s poisonous little site is a travesty of fair reportage.

        BTW thanks for bringing the interesting news that ECN is now closed to new comments. The last dozen or so comments indicate without further explanation why this is entirely a Good Thing. I wonder which LENR site Hodyyugo et. al will descend on next?

        • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

          Not only is ECN closed to new comments, but it is also a dead site, in that there is no more site owner activity,

          • Peter_Roe

            Paul Story (admin, ECN) has only posted intermittantly for some time following his conversion to the dark side. After his most recent post it would be rather strange if he posted anything other than a notice of his intention to shut the site down completely. I hope he does that soon.

      • Max S

        Patho-skeps like G Wright have absolutely zero influence in this world

        The opposite is true. You guys may think about the e-cat story what you want, but Gary W has more influence on potential investors than the overly optimistic crowd here.

        • georgehants

          Max S, you clearly do not invest or you would know that in business one follows facts only. (in general)
          If one takes opinions then you may as well go to a betting shop.
          Investors of any worth only indulge factual Evidence that allows them to make intelligent decisions.
          Unlike science that many times seems to follow laughable “expert opinion”, in business if one gets it wrong one loses one’s own money which tends to keep decisions sober.
          In the establishment the “opinion experts” are just losing taxpayers money which of course is of very little importance.

          • Max S

            I am in business since 20 years, don´t know about you, George. The appreciation of what is a “fact” seems not so obvious, sometimes.
            I agree with you, George, people in business look at facts, not emotions and wishful thinking. But what are the facts here ? A fact is not what you define as such. A fact requires verification. The e-cat promoters (in contrast to others in the LENR field) have never provided any credible experimental evidence, therefore we cannot accept their claims as fact (yet). That´s the only fact that counts for serious investors. Gary W has opened the eyes of many people. But surely soon we will see the famous university reports …..

    • Frank

      ” … and confirming excess heat.”

      Would you please provide a link or a document where this “public trade firm’s engineer” confirms excess heat.
      (Preferable with an official endorsement from that firm – because just an assessment of a single engineer would be weak)

      • http://www.lenrweb.com tyler

        NI engineers did all the testing of the Celani LENR device both at NIWeek and ICCF-17. I met and spoke with the NI engineers myself.

        tyler

    • AB

      Don’t waste your time on Gary Wright trying to reason with him. Everything about him screams paid shill.

  • clovis

    hi, guys,fp/mp
    I know you guys are being safe, but just for me, are you checking for stray radiation emitting from your cell, if not a simple geigar counter close by
    or some sort of tag to wear that would warn, for bad stuff, smile.

    • clovis

      oh, oh,,
      One other thing,sorry if I missed it,somewhere, but does your cell use a pulsing magnetic field,in any way,

      • Robert Mockan

        Magnetic fields might be important. Piantelli used magnetic fields to enhance hydrogen absorption into the nickel and nickel alloy metal lattice even in his original research in the early 1990s. Also was a way to start the reaction. Lot of information about it here:

        http://www.rexresearch.com/piantelli/piantelli.htm

        • GreenWin

          Peter Hagelstein seems to be on the same path, identifying external stimulus that focuses the LENR reaction. Peter suggests a physical “thump” on the lattice might induce the requisite resonance to start the reaction.

          Since all matter is essentially energy in a vibratory state – this appears to be plausible.

          • Peter_Roe

            So my standard method of fixing things might actually work in the case of an e-cat!

            • timycelyn

              Boot’s Correction at an atomic scale…. works every time ;-)

              • Peter_Roe

                I wonder if Rossi will employ a bloke with a mallet in each 1MW unit, as being simpler and more cost-effective than EM/RF stimulation!

      • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

        This is one way we know that may have an affect – but right now the aim is to replicate Celani’s experiment first.

        • clovis

          Hi, Bob.
          I really want to say you guys are doing such a good job,
          I for one realize that you are on the right track, and are proceeding ahead with the skill and talent that it takes to have a successful outcome.. please take my suggestions with a grain of salt,-smile
          But I do care, and appreciate what your team are accomplishing,, thanks again–Clovis

    • stuey81

      clovis you wrote this the other day :the e-cat LT, is now being installed in a real working power plant it will be delivering steam to their plant and will be ready for public inspection probably by christmas

      how do you know that?
      a smiling stuey :)

  • buffalo

    the first thing they have to do to reach a successful run in my opinion is get rid of all nobel gases when firing up.the nobel gas,s effect on lenr and on adsorption is an unknown at present so we want 2 eliminate at least that unknown.they must run in pure hydrogen.they must also be more clear to the layman for sake of simplicity when explaining exactly what they r doing,even for sake of scientist viewers,like that french guy watsisname,naudin.otherwize things get confusing and sceptics have a field day

    • buffalo

      they must also eliminate any leaks in the reactor vessel.a leak is a magnet for skeps.especialy a leak at high temps.that container must be totaly 100percent airtight or the skeps r gona creep in that leak believe me.

      • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

        Celani had a small leak – but the signal was very high – so that is less of an issue in this situation.

        Generation 2 reactors will much less likely to leak – however there are many things to learn from the current set up first.

      • http://www.lenr-cars.com Nicolas Chauvin

        Leaks are not our main concern for skeptics.
        Even if all 70mg of H2 (this is what is in the cell when we run at 3.5 bars with pure H2) is transformed into H2O which is the most efficient chemical reaction with H2, we can only generate 3 Wh of chemical energy.
        And this would mean going down to 0 bars.
        And the reaction would have to extract O2 from the mica or the glass.

        If we can measure any excess heat, it can only be non-chemical as chemical is much below our margin of error.

        • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

          3 Wh is 360J. That is the energy contained in the hydrogen in the mica tube if it were to be combined with O2. A small pop and a flash of blue light.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Yeah buffalo, maybe some sort of subtle annealing took place when it has heated with helium that altered the active site. Maybe the hydrogen has to be there initially at room temperature to cause some sort of conformational change when heated.

  • Lu

    I’ve been following MFMP’s efforts very closely and in my opinion they have not yet achieved excess energy. In fact their most recent trial, where the calibration is a very close match to the actual trial indicates that they have NOT achieved excess energy. Prior runs were very inconclusive.

    Celani was able to achieve something like 40-50% excess energy (COP=1.4-1.5) and the MFMP is using very comparable techniques. I believe that when they start seeing results on that order (> 25%) then we can get very excited.

    That said, they are doing a great job and all of this is par for the course of scientific endeavors. They have done a fantastic job so far especially in making their efforts transparent (and entertaining as well).

    If you haven’t donated yet I would like to recommend that you do so since Free Energy doesn’t come without some expense. You can donate through their donate page here:

    http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/donate

    • Ged

      I agree. We’ve seen hints, definitely, but no iron clad data yet. Much fine tuning is required, but I believe what we have seen puts them very well on track.

      The current run is in helium, so no surprise how it is behaving, though there was some potential, minor, excess energy they posted up. Again, simply a hint of what could be, but not solid data yet. Tantalizingly close!

    • http://aotearoaisnotforsale.com Linda

      Is Celina helping? If not, why not?

      • Ged

        He is, substantially.

    • http://www.lenr-cars.com Nicolas Chauvin

      We agree.
      We do not have achieve excess heat, substantially enough to avoid any doubts. Our MFMP experiments are there to remove all our own doubts and we are not there yet.
      But we are progressing … every day.

      And yes, Celani is helping us replication his experiment.

  • Robert Mockan

    “If you have successful replication, you have to find ways to effectively promote it, and for a media campaign to be effective, you need solid data to back it up.”

    That sums up the problem. I would add that solid data, although necessary, is not sufficient to attract venture capital. One also needs credibility that can not be put into doubt by critics and skeptics. That is why much research in this field is done with discretionary funds, taken from savings or liquidated assets that were originally created from a primary income source unrelated to the subject.

    Even Rossi had to sell his house. Point made.

    Unless one can reach the point of effective promotion, however arrived at, eventually the discretionary funds are gone, and progress stops.

    Almost reaching the goal is not enough. It is like having a half million dollar house, with one more payment. Miss that last payment on the mortgage, and you can have the house foreclosed on. Losers lose everything.

    • GreenWin

      Robert, in a somewhat disturbing disclosure, Sterling Allen is running a story about a phone call with Dennis Bushnell at NASA. According to the disclosing party, James Martinez, Bushnell is angry about the “Edisonian” approach to LENR (Rossi, Focardi, Celani, etc.) He seems to be pushing a tale about how “dangerous” LENR is (though we know of only one accident – related to H2 combustion.)

      This suggests the NASA approach will now be, without the W-L theory proved, this is a very dangerous technology, 3M X chemical energy, labs blown up, windows “melted,” etc. Ridiculous. But I suspect we will see more fretting from government types as commercial products come on line. The control mechanism is thus an “LENR is unsafe” tale of fear. Old school methods to contain this breakthrough technology. Here’s Sterling’s phone call with Bushnell:

      http://pesn.com/2012/11/14/9602219_NASA-Senior-Scientist_Dennis-Bushnell_threatens_James-Martinez/2012-11-13_09_52_09_Dennis-Bushnell.mp3

      • AB

        I do not think it’s ridiculous. There are reports of explosions exceeding chemical sources and even P&F had one of their cells melt. It doesn’t seem to be a large risk but it’s there.

        I have not read any reports about this happening to nickel-hydrogen cells though.

        I don’t see any problem in admitting that some risks exist, as long as the risks are not overblown. It would be foolish to claim otherwise. Even the gas boiler in your home can explode.

        If you want to promote LENR as safe you need to be honest because nothing destroys credibility like dishonesty.

        • GreenWin

          Agreed. Bushnell makes some allusion to 6-7 labs “blowing up…” – this is news to me. Does NASA honestly have this evidence? Have they kept it secret? Why? It’s a civilian space agency.

      • buffalo

        lol.hey greenwin,bushnel is actually doing lenr grace here,remember most people dont believe its possible at all,never mind blow things up

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Plus alleged radiation from LeClair cavitation pump and pressure explosion with Papp engine.

      • Robert Mockan

        Unfortunately Bushnell does have a point. It gets worse if the W-L theory of LENR IS proven, because then the neutrons per the W-L process could, conceivably, be used to transmute uranium into plutonium in a desk-top apparatus that any person could build in their garage. It might be as simple as spiking a LENR catalyst with a small percentage of uranium to be transmuted by the neutrons. Of course this can already be done with the Farnsworth Fusor, a homemade plasma focus unit modified to make neutrons, Don Borghi’s neutron experiment apparatus, the modulated quantum neutron synthesis cyclotron, the Brillouin Energy neutron generator, and so on. But if an effort were made to crush LENR development for the masses, by the masses, it would not be difficult to play the fear card. Once Homeland Security gets in on the act and LENR publicized as a threat, we could kiss energy freedom goodby.

      • Robert Mockan

        Previous post just disappeared. Here is another try to post it.

        Unfortunately Bushnell does have a point. It gets worse if the W-L theory of LENR IS proven, because then the neutrons per the W-L process could, conceivably, be used to transmute uranium into plutonium in a desk-top apparatus that any person could build in their garage. It might be as simple as spiking a LENR catalyst with a small percentage of uranium to be transmuted by the neutrons. Of course this can already be done with the Farnsworth Fusor, a homemade plasma focus unit modified to make neutrons, Don Borghi’s neutron experiment apparatus, the modulated quantum neutron synthesis cyclotron, the Brillouin Energy neutron generator, and so on. But if an effort were made to crush LENR development for the masses, by the masses, it would not be difficult to play the fear card. Once Homeland Security gets in on the act and LENR publicized as a threat, we could kiss energy freedom goodby.

        • Peter_Roe

          I think we probably already have. What could be more convenient for TPTB than to have the sheeple ‘demanding’ that the government protect them from the nasty mad inventors and their ‘nuclear’ toys.

        • Peter_Roe

          Taken to the logical limits, it might even be possible to use ‘safety concerns’ to make even experimenting with LENR a criminal activity, just as messing around with radioactive materials already is (with good reason in the latter case of course).

          • buffalo

            lol.cumon people.we are arguing wether lenr is real or dangerous?itsa reedeeculous

            • Peter_Roe

              No, that’s not the point. Greenwin was suggesting that Bushnell’s hyping of supposed dangers might be the vanguard of a push to make LENR seem scary, so that governments can then move to ‘protect’ us by seizing monopoly rights to the technology. I’ve been ranting on about this (as I see it) probable development for about as long as I can remember, both here and elsewhere.

              Edit: Moderated begad! ‘hyping’, ‘dangers’, ‘scary’, ‘ranting’? God only knows.

      • Robert Mockan

        Something is up with the moderation blocking.

      • Robert Mockan

        Dangerous? Will, that is also true for any chemical experiments, but lots of high school kids them.

        Of course nickel catalyst used even in ordinary chemical experiments is well documented showing it can releases hydrogen and heat (lots of it!) under certain conditions, and this was long before cold fusion was publicized.

        For example, this article tells how to make an ordinary nickel catalyst used in chemical hydrogenation reactions. It is not a known LENR active catalyst, but under some conditions it can release enough heat to cause explosions. See the top few lines of the article.

        http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep.asp?prep=CV5P0102

        (It would be interesting to measure the heat release. Maybe it IS LENR active, but who would have known 40 years ago?)

        Maybe Bushnell has other reasons for being upset about the “Edisonian” approach? Like maybe it gets things done when the “official” approach using government funding is lacking?

        • GreenWin

          “Like maybe it gets things done when the “official” approach using government funding is lacking?”

          Yes. Having lost the opportunity to “discover” LENR back in F&P’s day, NASA seems to be taking the “invented here” approach. Certainly there will be ways to alter the LENR process to transmute to dangerous elements. But we have a HUGE infrastructure in place to detect, monitor and mitigate Pu… enhanced further by remote sensing tech, beyond human reach.

          Projects like MFMP are important to counter any BS fear-related propaganda coming from guv’mnt and corporate. The terrestrial players in this game (i.e. corporate and mil) are dwarfed by the galactic consciousness that is bringing LENR to humanity. It is futile to fight. It is stone age vs ageless interstellar knowledge. Who would you bet on??

          Let’s begin to get real. We are not alone. And our Guardians are egalitarian. Live it or live with it.

      • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

        A match is dangerous in the wrong hands, smokers walk around with pressurised gas often and people often take a drive in a vehicle that has a large volume of highly volatile flammable material under it.

        The reason we have 1m of fine wire is to not have a large mass of material. Celani had many months of safe experiments with excess heat and we have additionally housed the reactor in a safety shield.

        Now – people in authority need to make up their mind – either this tech does promise large amounts of energy or it doesn’t – they can’t say it does not exist and then tell us it is a safety threat to people.

      • http://www.lenr-cars.com Nicolas Chauvin

        Dennis point is correct. It might be dangerous.
        I met Dennis at ILENRS-12 this summer and we had the exact same discussion. When you scale it up, if it is not properly done, the amount of energy potentially involved can make it dangerous.

        This is why, as Bob is mentioning, we are working with milligrams. We have never more than 70mg of H2 in the cell. Even with million times more energy density than chemicals, milligrams compares to chemical kilograms, thus in the order of magnitude of what you have in a car.

        One comment I had with Dennis is if you believe in Widom-Larson-Srivastava theory, then you have also have to accept that LENR events are occurring on daily basis in nature, on Earth, in lightnings, in volcanoes, inside living beings, without generating massive large scale thermonuclear reactions.

        Lightings are hitting ocean water every day creating both neutrons and monoatomic hydrogen since 4.5 billions years ago.

        Should we have wait 1 million years before using fire (the old one) to assess the risks by fully understanding the theory behind carbon oxidation mechanisms.

        No, our approach of LENR is to scale it down and design it in order to be sure by design that it cannot enter into chain reactions. We do not need to go to Mars with it ;-)

        • AB

          One comment I had with Dennis is if you believe in Widom-Larson-Srivastava theory, then you have also have to accept that LENR events are occurring on daily basis in nature, on Earth, in lightnings, in volcanoes, inside living beings, without generating massive large scale thermonuclear reactions.

          Regarding LENRs inside living beings: I haven’t heard that in connection to the W-L theory before. Why or how is that predicted?

      • clovis

        Hi, green win.
        I think he is a believer, and was just pitching out the old standard warning, don’t blow your self up already, lol, and he seemed pretty
        convinced that lenr is here to stay,—BIG SMILE

  • andreiko

    Quickly switch to the Ni powder variant mixed with carbon powder (actievekoolstof) then degassed preferably heating with the pre heated H2 gas.Cool tubes in the reactive portion of the cell and measure but!

  • Robert

    Anyone know when the next test run will occur??

  • Iggy Dalrymple
    • GreenWin

      World domination has been quite popular since Ming the Merciless.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        My point was on the strong resemblance of Rossi to Mr Burns.

  • Gerrit

    It would be great if we could jointly design a logo for “the new fire” / “LENR”

    I have thought about a combination of 1) atom with electrons 2) alchemy symbols 3) rising phoenix

    Maybe a gifted graphics designer can make a nice and simple proposal. I tried, but, well, it didn’t work.

  • daniel maris

    Great vid.

    I’m still confused about where we are on the testing. Are they claiming sustained COP? The evidence seemed a bit weak when I last looked but they aren’t altogether clear in the way they present the data to the layman.

    • http://www.lenrweb.com tyler

      We are not there yet Daniel. After the first run a few days back, the team needed to make some tweaks to the design. We are getting closer and you will know it when we have LENR and significant excess energy gain.

      tyler

      • Ged

        There was that at least one sustained instance of significant energy, so you’re definitely very close!

        Might be time to try to make a new active wire, so we can address some of the current limitations safely.

      • daniel maris

        Thanks for the assessment.

    • Lu

      Moved.

    • Robert Mockan

      Yes. The MFMP is losing the momentum and promotion advantages of unquestionably generating excess thermal power. If they do not unambiguously demonstrate success, soon, and make it clear to every body, and the critics, that they have been successful, then their efforts to promote the technology will have been in vain. It will become just another effort, that critics will say needs verification.

  • Chris

    Cute, but it doesn’t strike me so highly enlightening about the topic.

  • Tangled Connections

    Another great example of the MFMP’s effective use of crowd sourcing. I saw on their forum they were looking for help to put together a video and so I produced this teaser for them. Good to see it getting distributed and viewed.

    • clovis

      good job, tangled it’s always good to have a great visual.

      • Tangled Connections

        Thanks Clovis, My knowledge of physics was never going to cut it so it was good to find some way to contribute.

    • http://www.lenr-cars.com Nicolas Chauvin

      Thanks a lot Tangled for your contribution to MFMP.
      We appreciate it a lot.

      • Tangled Connections

        Thanks Nicolas, just glad I had the chance to collaborate and contribute.

  • Redford

    I’ve seen them reaching +7/+8 several time, then stopping and trying something else. I am under the impression they already have a partial result (fitting a lot of other replicatons before) but that they are looking for something more than that. I am puzzled by the fact that they seem to have all instruction they need from Celani, so how comes they don’t reach the +20 he’s supposed to reach ? I read here that’s because they don’t reach proprer heating and don’t wait for long enough – and indeed last +8 reached was not on a ceiling. Does anyone get what I miss here ?

    • Pachu

      I feel the same way, didnt get a response about how much they can heat the cell (independent of a lenr reaction).

    • Peter_Roe

      If they can present replicable solid, incontrovertible proof of a sustained COP of 7/8, then that will be enough for the initial test phase. However, they do seem to be lacking a clear plan of what they will be trying over, say, the next three months (or perhaps they’ve just overlooked publishing one).

      Personally I would like to see them make their own wire, using the info in Celani’s paper and the PDF, as quickly as possible. As their data grows, they should be able to quite quickly see if ‘home made’ wires are as good (or maybe better) as the ones they got from Celani.

      • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

        A little clarification. The 7/8 are watts not COP. It is in the context of an input of 50 watts. COP is therefore 1:0.1. But the idea is to prove the effect exists first, and when the viewer response is positive (including funding of hard cash)ways of augmenting the effect can be explored. I personally would have a thousand self manufactured wires in a coil resembling that of an electric motor – but not touching. 10 to 11 watts per wire multiplied by a thousand creates a 10 to 11 kilowatt steam boiler running a turbine or small steam engine.

      • buffalo

        yeah they shud start some quik random testing(like rossi in beginning) to find a suitable wire of their own and perfect it before going live,that would be more professional but i gues viewers would have to have patience.

        • Robert Mockan

          I agree. My own goal has been on characterizing possible LENR active catalyst in a reaction calorimeter. Then when having a catalyst that works, developing a process to make it so that it works every time. In other words improve the quality control. The next step is to simplify the process so that any person can make it using readily available materials. Is the process Celani describes in his patent 100 percent effective? That is unlikely, in my opinion. He describes “brushing” on the silica compound. Right there, that step introduces so many variables it renders his patent almost useless. What is needed are precise instructions that result in LENR catalyst. Which silica sol-gel composition is being used? My educated guess is ethyl silicate-32, but Celani does not specify that anywhere.
          Brushing anything is a procedure that results in variable thickness, dependent on ambient temperature, direction of brush stroke, number of times, and so on. Endless permutations about how it is done. In any precision application, one does NOT brush on a critical reagent. Applying it in a consistent way is essential. Perhaps in a spray booth with calibrated spray characteristics, or drawing the surface through the liquid at a precise rate, whatever, but NOT brushing. As always, the critical item is the catalyst. And Celani has not disclosed enough information to make his LENR active wire without experimenting, then testing it. The focus is still wrong. We know LENR works. What we do not know is how to make an inexpensive LENR catalyst. We do know catalysts that do work, like that utilized by EPRI. But that was $18 per gram, and only generated about 5 watts thermal power per gram.
          We know nickel works, but to increase the thermal power out it needs surface treatment.
          Rossi is still keeping his composition secret. Everything other than the catalyst, and how to make it, precisely, is just engineering. And not even complicated engineering. The catalyst is essential.

          • Robert Mockan

            Here is an example of the kind of information disclosure needed to make LENR active catalyst. This example is not LENR active, but is a common catalyst used in ordinary hydrogenation chemical reactions. I show it just to indicate the kind of simple, but accurate and adequate, description needed to make catalyst. If one were to make the proper nano-surface structure on nickel particles in the desired 4nm to 12nm size range, even this might be made LENR active. Could this catalyst be treated with ethyl silicate after being made, then heat treated, numerous times, to make it LENR active? Maybe!
            What is needed are experiments, experiments, experiments!

            http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/orgsyn/prepcontent.asp?print=1&showprint=1&prep=cv3p0176

            • buffalo

              i see u r quite the perfectionist rob.its required for the sake of replicability but that is AFTER a rough consistently working formula is made.i say throw away the silica spray and concentrate on high melting pure alloys because the silica may cover alot of available surface area and block adsorption(unless its porous)try electroplate sheets of metal thinly so that heat is evenly dispersed in reaction chamber.try tungsten alloys(probably most resistant to annealing).try high melting nickel alloys(nichrome etc.)

              • georgehants

                I doubt if Mr. Rossi used deep understanding to find his “catalyst”, but a scatter-gun approach to try and cover as many possibilities as possible.
                One day, when the delayed Quantum knowledge is available then we should be able to pre-design the Cold Fusion effect and much else.
                In the meanwhile as Robert and buffalo both seem to be saying, “What is needed are experiments, experiments, experiments!”

      • GreenWin

        They appear to get 7-8 WATTS, at the P_Xs calculation. This is not a COP. They are currently running controls again in He.

    • Ged

      The issue is mostly the glass used for the cell. They are using a different type of glass from Celani, which has significantly higher IR loss. This means they can’t hold the same temperature for the same amount of power in that Celani’s cell could do. It’s just one of those things you discover when you try a replication like this. Also, they weren’t able to wrap the Celani wire throughout the entire cell due to concern about the wire breaking — this means that heating isn’t as even as it could be and a lot of power is being lost to gradients within the cell itself; also making it harder to sustain the proper temperatures as now there’s a big “void spot” of no wire near the end. One of the other differences is a lower hydrogen loading pressure, but that’s probably minor.

      I do think they have successfully seen the effect at least once so far (got near 9 watts unexpectedly), but it wasn’t under the right “experimental” conditions yet. Things are being worked up very carefully so there’s no muddied waters.

      They are doing fantastically. Building an experimental procedure is not easy! They’ve ironed out so many kinks and issues and are continuing to do so. Each time, making their cell more reliable, their calculations stronger, and the resolution of the data more significant.

      We just have to wait a bit more, greater things are coming yet.

      • Jim

        @Ged: do you have the time post for when you thought they achieved 9 watts? I’d like to check that out.

        • Ged

          http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/follow/133-experiment-steps#comments it was back during this post. The first commenter, and a later one, also point it out. It was a very interesting run, which they stopped to put the device in a helium atmosphere. While I was watching, it seemed to reach transient spikes as high as 8.5-8.7 W on the P_xs calculation.

          Exactly what it all means is hard to say, which is why things must be done so carefully, and we need to see the effect unequivocally during the actual “experimental” runs before it can really be said to be detected.