MFMP Celani Nov 12th Cell Live Run Thread

Here’s a post from an earlier thread from Bob Greenyer of the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project about the first test run of the the Celani LENR cell that is scheduled for Monday, Nov 12.

Hi All,

We are expected to go for first active loaded wire test at 8 am central American time Monday 12th November 2012.

Our H2 loading was a complete success and matched Celani’s findings, this has been confirmed by the highest authority on the matter.

We hope that you will be able to spare the time to watch the story develop. We are cautiously optimistic given the success on the loading – we may see the New Fire lit from about 10am central American time.

Wish us luck, this is for you.

A live data feed can be viewed here — see Celani Cell #1

Bob also told me that they would be reporting live about the experiment on their progress blog here.

I may not be able to monitor everything carefully tomorrow in real time, so I thought I would set up this thread so that people could share news and observations. I know this is a big day for the MFMP — they are cautiously optimistic, but certainly not overly confident. This is the first test run, and there are a lot of unknowns at this point. I have to say that this project has gone ahead with impressive speed and competence. The people involved are dedicated to trying to show the world that there is a new fire available that can be used for the benefit of everyone.


  • Ake Malhammar

    Apparently you are preparing a new calibration with He. I don’t know if you are aware of this but unless the calibration gas has the same natural convection properties as the test gas there will always be a discrepancy between the inner and the outer temperature readings.

    Natural convection is determined by the Rayleigh number. This number is very sensitive to the pressure, so if well calculated the test gas and the calibration gas could be of different nature provided that the pressure is accordingly adjusted.

    Have you assured this ?

  • Hal

    The last 45 min have been amazing to watch!!

  • Hal

    What is happening??? the last 30 mins the thing has been doing some strange stuff indeed!!!

  • Bob

    Very nice work everyone! Much, much better than reality TV (Which is not real anyway!) and talk about a truly world impacting subject!

    My question is related to measuring other telltale signs of LENR. Are any ongoing measurements of radioactivity (gamma,etc.) being made and if so what are the current results? Were there measurements during the heating of the non-loaded wire to establish a base line?

    I have not been able to see the video, so I ask if and what shielding may be in place to guard against possible radiation? (Or is the theory that the possibility of such radiation is minimal as to not require it?)

    I ask this for two reasons: 1) A base line comparison to the active wire might lend more positive proof of a nuclear type event. 2) Reading various posts over the past year, one hears of a wide range of measurements concerning radiation. From none to a very detectable amount.

    Secondly, are there any plans to test for transmutation? I.E. a before and after analysis of wire material. Even if excess heat is not fully proved during this initial run, the detection of certain radiation and transmutation would be of significant finding. I suppose testing for transmutation might be too destructive of the wire however.

    Again, an excellent project!

  • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

    Hi All,

    We have released a new video on Calibration and a discussion on the basis for excess power calculation.

    http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/youtube-video-feed

    Experiment is still ongoing, increase in estimated excess power based on current assumptions is rising but seemingly inverse to pressure drop and resistivity increasing so unconvinced we are seeing the effect as of yet through the noisy power supply and margin of error. Not surprising considering the IR losses in the system and lack of being comfortably in the trigger region.

    We will venture onwards.

    • Ged

      Shoot. I have noticed that noisy powersupply in the data, that is a pain, but at least quite fixable.

      The resistivity going up is what makes me wonder most.

      Still though, plenty of time to go, and the more this rises the more confidence we can have.

      • Sanjeev

        I don’t think it will go anywhere above noise floor. After two days it would have shown something. The dT is almost zero, not even noticeable fluctuations towards positive.

        P_xs is a calculated value (very indirectly calculated) so I don’t have so much faith on it, I’m simply watching the T_Glassout, which is not rising much above the baseline value.

        This run has proven very useful anyway. You know what are the issues – faulty power, leakage etc etc, so the next run should bring us closer to the goal.

        • http://www.quantumheat.org/ Bob Greenyer

          Spot on Sanjeev, this is science, it is about testing theory through experiment to derive theory to drive experimental design and following the evidence. It is hard graft, patience and analysis to converge on a conclusion that can be easily repeated.

          It is about using what we know we know and what we know we dont know to form a path to test. That is to say, it is about identifying the known knowns and the known unknowns and accounting for them and then trying to establish the unknown unknowns and incorporating their influence into the overall understanding.

        • Ged

          Those are very good points, Sanjeev.

  • georgehants

    Herb Gillis
    November 13th, 2012 at 11:56 AM
    Andrea Rossi:
    Do you think it is possible that just one of the isotopes 62 and 64 of Ni are involved, and not both? Or, are both of these isotopes (together) essential? Also; do you have evidence that either (or both) of these heavy isotopes are being consumed (transmuted to something else) in the reaction?
    If not, then they must be acting as catalysts in some way.
    Andrea Rossi
    November 13th, 2012 at 12:29 PM
    Dear Herb Gillis:
    Both work, both essential, some transmutes in copper as a side effect.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Ged

    So at the moment, seems it’s jumping between 2.8 and 3.5 excess watts. But two main points:

    1. The device hasn’t reached the expected proper activation temperature for the reaction (270 C+), due to the glass.
    2. It’s still too early. Celani ran the device for 100 hours before seeing a 10 watt of excess, so we are not there yet time wise, but the rise in excess is on course to reaching that point.

    Things are actually looking pretty good so far. Very very interesting data.

    • Andre Blum

      The fact that the excess power seems to be (inversely) related to the ambient temperature scares me.
      When (i suppose) the heating sprang on this morning, excess power dropped significantly. (plot ambient and P_xs in one graph and you will see the symmetry)

      Does not bode well for the reliability of the excess heat number?

      • Hal

        I have noticed a small spike in p-xs approx every 6 mins, coincides with a drop in one of the lines at 100, is that the ambient temperature one? (my eyesight not good enough) What could be causing that? AND more importantly when ambient goes down why does p-xs go up? I’ve probably missed something!

        • Ged

          The line I see dropping is the power in line, which means that P_xs goes up in small symmetrical spikes.

      • Ged

        Ambient is flat as far as I see, I don’t know at all what you mean.

        The only line that is inversely proportional is the input line. The input periodically drops slightly, which means that the P_xs calculation goes up slightly during those dips. Ambient temp is smooth as butter.

      • Ged

        Let me put it another way too: Ambient is also not a big factor in the P_xs calculation, as it changes the P_out only slightly (glass temp – ambient temp). Nor would minor ambient swings have much an effect (you’d need several C of swings without any change in the glass temp), which we do not even see in the first place. It doesn’t mean really anything for the validity of excess heat.

        Now, the ripples in the P_in have a much bigger impact, and again, those are what causes the slight P_xs bumps from what I see in the data (the magnitude is in agreement). Even so, the P_xs is solidly, stably positive, and never dips negative. The only question now is if it’ll continue to rise over time. If there was some way to get the reactor to hold a little more heat so it can read the critical temp, without having to stop the experiment, that would help.

        Edit: Ok, I can confirm, looking at the raw ambient and P_xs numbers, there is no synchrony between them I can detect (note ambient is fluctuating in a 0.2 C range). When ambient goes up, the P_xs can go down or up, and vice versa. It is insensitive to such minor ambient variations.

        • Ged

          Actually, looks like when it comes to the T_glassout temperature rise calculation it is sensitive to ambient (since it is that absolute temp minus ambient), and with us so close to the noise floor, I was wrong in that way. This is quite a bit more complex than the data feed was showing. I dunno though, ambient was barely moving around, but I have only had a narrow time slice snapshot of things; I guess a longer term view may show that.

          P_in ripples are grossly obvious, and since that power supply fan is the culprit, I would think ambient might potentially affect the triggering of that to turn on or off.

    • Peter_Roe

      It’s interesting that the ‘activation temperature’ of 270C is very close to the point at which Akiya Matsuda has determined that hydrogen absorption by nickel changes from exothermic to endothermic (250C). Perhaps there is a connection, but as there is no hydrogen atmosphere it can’t be the obvious one.

      http://eprints.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/24660/1/5%282%29_P71-86.pdf

      • Ged

        It would suggest a change in atomic events if absorption goes from exothermal to endothermal. It might be that transition in the behavior of the nickel lattice that is priming it for the LENR event… Very interesting idea, Peter! If there was some way to test this directly, it could be a very important experiment.

    • Gerrit

      Ged, thanks for the wrap up.

      100 hours is approx 3 more days.

  • georgehants

    Andrea Rossi
    November 13th, 2012 at 11:36 AM
    I am receiving many requests of interview in this period, and I am spamming all of them. This comment is the answer for all: I will not release any more interview of any kind until the 1 MW plant for civil use will be presented to the public. This decision has been agreed upon between our new US Partner and the Trust that owns Leonardo Corp. We think any interview in this period is simply useless, because we have nothing to add to what we have already said, while we have an enormous work to do.
    I will continue to answer to the questions put on this blog from the readers of the Journal Of Nuclear Physics, though, because this blog is useful to us: here we learn, many times.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Charlie Sutherland

    The idea that a free exchange of ideas and data will create a boon for all mankind is naive at best. The human animal likes and needs credit. Unless he gets some kind of credit, he just ain’t gonna invest his time, or money in a project. It may be that the mere creation of a new device is credit enough on a personal level, but the added credit, money, and prestige allows more time and opportunity for new projects.

    It’s just the way it is. Rossi is doing what it takes to get the credit he needs to continue to create. You can see this with each new announcement of his ever better mousetrap.

    • Lu

      The internet is a counterexample of the gist of your argument.

    • Tangled Connections

      I don’t think people are denying that what you state is how things currently work. They are merely saying that things could be different and better, and this project might be an example of how that might work. It doesn’t mean they are naive any more than your position makes you a cynic.

    • GreenWin

      Charlie, you do not see the whole picture. The guys at the MFMP are ALL getting “credit.” Such that, if the project succeeds in producing an LENR apparatus that consistently demonstrates excess heat – they can likely name their price. And that may not be financial alone. There is a good chance a large entity would contract the team for additional LENR research of a commercial nature. Each team member has a major feather to wear, should they choose to shop their talents.

      Open Access is merely a gateway that guarantees good ideas and research gets into the public dialog. From there, plenty of entrepreneurs can develop the research into viable products, services, etc. Corp and guv’mnt employees rarely get financial boost or public credit for inventions that are patented by their employers. They might get a raise and an attaboy, and a warning about their non-compete clause.

  • Redford

    No more data stream or it’s just me ?

  • Barry

    The transparancy and videos are great. Thanks guys. From their website I just watched how the roof developed a leak, traveled down a beam and dripped right onto the Celani laptop. This is better than TV.

  • georgehants

    One only has to visit ECN to find full conformation of this research.
    —–
    Humans evolving backward new research claims
    http://www.examiner.com/article/humans-evolving-backward-new-research-claims

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      George, off-topic, from vortex foundational essays in physics http://fqxi.org/community/forum/category/31418. Especially “The Universe Is Not a Computer” by Ken Wharton, http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1423. He recommends approaching the universe with the Lagrangian rather than Newtonian problem setup. Although the approaches are mathematically equivalent in classical mechanics, they are philosophically different, and in any case only the Lagrangian approach works in quantum theory. All this is in principle well known, but the philosophy of science is still somehow stuck with the exclusively Newtonian world picture.
      - In a nutshell, when you say “all is quantum”, this essayist says “all is Lagrange” which is almost the same thing, but technically easier.

      • georgehants

        Pekka, Thanks for links, many Wonderful theories and hypothesise from the earliest times, our ancestors where not afraid to dream and gain information from any source, without it having to be of a reductionist doctrine.
        But they then later also had to contend with dogmatic religion, etc.
        I don’t think it matters which theory turns out to be correct at any time, only that we move forward to the Truth and not constantly be stuck in the dogmatic mud.
        Open-minds can only come when there are not pressures to conform or gain materially.
        Removing capitalism would end much of the gain aspect and in most cases removing “expert qualified opinion” would remove more false delay.
        We would be left with fear of the unknown, that is a psychological affair that needs to be turned into Wonder and excitement.
        Everything is Quantum, but what lies behind the Quantum.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      georgehants – “Humans evolving backward new research claims.”

      That’s the way the welfare state works. Retrogression to serfdom.

  • Peter_Roe

    Bob Greenyer

    I wonder what plans your team has to publish your findings when you are in a position to do so. I assume you’ll lodge copies with lanr.org but will you also be publishing more widely through a ‘preprint server’ such as http://arxiv.org/?

    You may have already answered this query somewhere but if so, I’m afraid that I missed it.

  • georgehants

    I just pick up that Mr. Rossi’s responses feel as if communication with the certificators is proceeding at a normal pace.
    ——
    Antenna
    November 12th, 2012 at 10:06 PM
    Dear Andrea Rossi,
    Equipment which generates radio frequencies often need a Federal Communications Commission certification to ensure that Radio Frequency Interference is not an issue. I was under the impression that your Home E-Cat was using ‘frequencies’ to help to control or augment the reaction. It is possible that certain shielding may be necessary to insure that these frequencies do not affect other devices in the vicinity.
    I wish you the best,
    Antenna
    Andrea Rossi
    November 13th, 2012 at 4:04 AM
    Dear Antenna:
    Now I understand. Yes, the certifiers told me they have taken in account this issue, but we have a shielding that forbids radio frequency interferences. Anyway, to install a plant are necessary the local Authirities permissions, so that if this particular authorization will be requested, we will obtain it. Interesting question.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Peter_Roe

      Thanks, George. ‘Antenna’ has an interesting approach to asking ‘do you still use RF stumulation in the LT e-cat?’. The reply is also interesting, in that a requirement for some kind of Faraday cage for shielding (assumed to be over and above the outer metal casing) indicates a fairly powerful RF injection somewhere in the system.

      For what it’s worth, my guess (as ever) is that RF modulated current is periodically applied to the resistance heating coils to synchronise some kind of standing (phonon?) wave and re-start the reaction. Just possibly other frequencies may also be used to disrupt any standing waves in order to reduce the reaction rate to allow stable control.

      • georgehants

        Dear Andrea Rossi
        An aspect of your discovery that I have found fascinating is the fact that the addition of energy from an outside source is required from time to time. Have you developed a formula which describes the intervals when and for what duration external energy is required? If you have, can you reveal whether the formula works for the ecat and the newer hot cat?
        Kind regards,
        Bob
        Andrea Rossi
        November 13th, 2012 at 11:27 AM
        Dear Bob:
        Yes, we have developed a formula, and it is, obviously, confidential.
        Warm Regards,
        A.R.
        Bob
        November 13th, 2012 at 9:12 AM

  • georgehants

    The Wonderful open investigation of Cold Fusion demonstrated today is exactly as everything would be in a non-capitalist World.
    Nothing to hide, everything just investigated with fun and openness for the benefit of mankind.

    • Chris

      “Nothing to hide, everything just investigated with fun and openness for the benefit of mankind.”

      Much like academic research when it isn’t bound to industries which fund it. Unfortunately (and contrary to what I first thought) Celani did not conduct his experiment just as an INFN employee; he owes it to an investor who does not yet want to be named and with the agreement that Celani will get the credit but this investor will own the method. This is why Celani supplied the wire to the MFMP instead of detailing how to make it.

      So there is something to hide, just as in Rossi’s case.

    • http://www.lenrforum.eu/ AlainCo

      sorry george, even if I agree that that team is open, honest, the reason they do that is that they want the truth to emerge from the crony mainstream, so they can … make business…

      It is sad for me to admit, but one big advantage of capitalism is that people battle for some ideas, as if they were hoping to get personal advantage of it… because they do.

      At small scale, in a community (like was software in the 80s), sharing can be working well, and even better. But with dummy selfish users, under hard time, with cost-killers, with investors or pension fund clients, you need more contract and value less benevolent trust…

      I could imagine Celani, Defkalion, Piantelli, Brillouin, sitting in a room and agreeing to start exchanging patent licenses to compete with Rossi, the Japanese, the Chinese… agreeing on a common pool of shared research, agreeing to share new discoveries at low price, against sharing costs and intermediate data…
      that have a name : COOPETITION…

      MFMP seems to be such a room for coopetitors. A safe neutral room with benevolent hosts.
      And first mission of all the coopetitors is to break the Berlin Wall of Denial. They do it well.

      • georgehants

        AlainCo, please don’t be sorry, discussion, disagreement, is the lifeblood of advancement.
        I believe that one day beyond my lifetime people will realise that each of us working only in jobs that benefit all and not having such things as one person living a life of extreme ease because they where left money and/or position (extracted from capitalism) from there predecessors, against a nurse struggling to qualify and then working many years, mainly just to pay the mortgage and the gas bill will end.
        I believe when most are freed from their self chosen, “slavery of capitalism” then life could be good for all.
        One just needs to base everything on production and hours worked with no profits to see that everyone could retire at about 50 and everybody could have everything they need or fairly want from the earliest age.
        No money worries just an agreement that everybody works a fair working life of their choice for the benefit of all.

        • Rockyspoon

          There is nothing wrong with capitalism–it is not slavery, and it isn’t inferior to socialism/communism.

          If you think centralized planning, which is the definition of socialism/capitalism, is superior to capitalism, I’m afraid you, george hants, have been brainwashed. I’ve worked in both situations–socialism and capitalism, and there is a world of difference–with free-market capitalism being the clear winner.

          Do some research into the pros/cons of capitalism vs socialism/communism and you’ll know the truth. Just don’t get sucked into the hype or distortions of those pushing socialism/communism as the panacea for mankind, because it isn’t.

          Or consider what the Pilgrims discovered back in 1620 when they tried socialism – and utterly failed at it.

          “For several years, the colony raised crops in “communal service.” It didn’t work. So Bradford instituted one historic change that was to ensure the flourishing success of the colony and change American history ever afterwards. Communal agriculture was abandoned and private planting was established. Here is Governor Bradford’s own account from the original source documents:

          “This was very successful. It made all hands very industrious, so that much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been by any means the Governor or any other could devise, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave far better satisfaction. The women now went willingly into the field, and took their little ones with them to plant corn, while before they would allege weakness and inability; and to have compelled them would have been thought great tyranny and oppression.

          The failure of this experiment of communal service, which was tried for several years, and by good and honest men, proves the emptiness of the theory of Plato and other ancients, applauded by some of later times–that the taking away of private property, and the possession of it in community, by a commonwealth, would make a state happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser than God. For in this instance, community of property (so far as it went) was found to breed much confusion and discontent and retard much employment which would have been to the general benefit and comfort.”

          Source: “Of Plymouth Plantation”.

          Having an abundant source of clean, cheap energy isn’t going to suddenly make socialism/communism superior to capitalism. Why? Because it won’t make humans work harder; indeed, they’ll tend to be less industrious.

          As early as 1620, we’ve known that “an agreement that everybody works a fair working life of their choice for the benefit of all” as you suggest is just a pipe dream. Socialism is an inferior system because it appeals to one of the least desirable traits found in humans–laziness.

          I’ve experienced it; I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

          • georgehants

            Rockyspoon, Ha, you will make no friends on these pages by childish comments such as —-
            “I’m afraid you, george hants, have been brainwashed.”
            If you wish to put your points again without the insults then I will happily show your errors of thinking.
            I will just say that, your imagining that I am talking about communism shows your lack of understanding and grasp of another persons views.
            First get information and Facts, then debate or discuss.
            If you do not come back for a discussion on my views of, no money, no profit, just everything based on production and hours worked, you will appear as a baseless opinion talker.
            Thank you

          • georgehants

            Admin I have relied to Rockyspoon which has gone to moderation, as the only dodgy word in my reply is a copy quote of his I find that strange.

        • HeS

          @:“slavery of capitalism”

          I know “slavery of socialism” from personal experience. Also, I do not recommend.

  • buffalo

    bob,for your next experiment plz do me a favour,run in pure hydrogen.forget about the nobel gases brother,they may very well interfere with lenr or even loading.lets go mad with this wire like rossi does with his nickel powders,in pure H2 gas.the goal is to achieve a clear breakaway tangent of excess heat

    • http://www.drboblog.com Dr Bob

      Dear Buffalo,

      I sure will.
      Thanks!