From the BBC Archive : Too Close to the Sun

Here’s a very interesting video which I have recently come across, but was created back in 1994 for the BBC Horizons TV program. I found it  to be a surprisingly sympathetic treatment of the subject of Cold Fusion created five years after the Fleischmann and Pons announcement at the University of Utah, and it features some of the major players in field. Pons and Fleischmann are interviewed, along with Michael McKubre, Randall Mills, Eugene Mallove, and others. Also featured are Randall Mills of Blacklight Power, and Stanley Meyer, inventor of a purported free energy water fuel cell. Critics are also interviewed.

It’s quite a long piece — around 50 minutes — but a nice in-depth look at the origins of cold fusion and some of the people involved, especially Pons and Fleischmann, and it highlights how the discussion surrounding CF has barely changed over the years.

  • buffalo

    if the slightest air-leak was in the glass/rubber surrounding the palladium cathode however,it would do pretty much same in that p&f experiment and rapidly suck air into palladium-hydride electrode exothermicaly,h2 +o=h2o.i worry about such leaks and its very hard to be certain that there is none

    • Ged

      The hydrogen is pressurized above the atmosphere, so no air can enter the apparatus (it’s a positive pressure device, the hydrogen is pushing out). The only worry for leaks is the loss of hydrogen (and anything sealed enough to hold in hydrogen, will be impregnable to air).

  • georgehants

    Monday, October 29, 2012
    Via PESN with thanks.
    Plasma > Anti-Gravity / Propulsion / Keshe >
    Space Program on USB: Transfer of technology to your governments – “From now on it is the responsibility of each nation to take part in the spaceship program…. We are considering Tuesday [November 6] as the handover key day. …We have even left the address of the manufacture of the systems on the stick that they can…, order a copy reactor made for them, that they can immediately implement the initial tests….” (Keshe Foundation; October 28, 2012)
    http://www.keshefoundation.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2893

    • ET

      Why would you need an answer from World Governments? They’ve proven to be unrealiable liars. Why don’t you take all that “worthy” information and share it with the whole World?, please. By the way, I thought handover key day was around september 2012, we should be seeing all kind of magnetic UFO’s levitating all around the planet skies and interfering with satellite communications by now, isn’t it?

  • Sandy

    At 14 minutes and 41 seconds Fleischmann stated, “And since we have been here we have got up to about 4 kilowatts per cubic centimeter, which is about the level of heat release you get in what is called a fast breeder reactor.”

    With that magnitude of “heat release” it is obvious that cold fusion technology has been deliberately suppressed since the early 1990s.

    • Robert Mockan

      Of course. One of their early experiments went critical, vaporized the palladium, and blew up the desk top and cupboard over the experiment apparatus. And the choir of critics and skeptics said: There is no proof of cold fusion, the heat effect can not be replicated, no one else has been able to get it to work, they must be fraudsters, it must be a hoax, blah, blah blah.

  • Torbjörn
    • Torbjörn

      09.07.2012

      New entry: Observations by third parties

      19.10.2012

      First examination report

      published on 21.11.2012 [2012/47]

      19.10.2012

      New entry: Despatch of examination report + time limit

      https://register.epo.org/espacenet/application?number=EP08873805&lng=en&tab=event

      • Torbjörn

        Report to be released November 21st (week 47) by third parties?

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Great news! Rossi’s almost through the bottleneck.

      • Max S

        what is so great about this news ? Examination does not imply that any of the claims would be allowed. On PCT stage all claims had been rejected.

        • Alan DeAngelis

          Yeah Max; good point.
          “With wisdom comes pessimism.”
          Mark Twain

    • Torbjörn
      • Robert Mockan

        Well, Rossi doesn’t make small claims in his application. He says any temperature from 150 C to …5000 C… for his cylinder filled with nickel powder. Uh, 5000 C is above the vaporization temperature of every metal and chemical compound. In the US a patent examiner would see that and reject the application on principle.

        • Adam Lepczak

          Its a typo…
          It should say: 500 degrees C…
          Look here
          http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/docservicepdf_pct/id00000009056757.pdf?download

          Page 5

          • Karl

            As it is formulated in the patent application it is stating preferable between 150 – 500 C but this does not excludes that he could not cover higher temps in his patent protection — the same goes with the “tube” preferable metal but not necessarily.

            Page 5
            “…filled with nickel powder and heated to a high temperature preferably, though not necessarily, from 15 degree C to 500 degree C, by injecting ….”

            • Adam Lepczak

              It’s a typo…
              Look at the Robert Mockan’s comment. The temperature of 5000C would be exceeding boiling points of almost all materials on Earth.
              Also, its logical based on what Rossi stated in the past: If you go beyond the melting point of nickel, the reaction CANNOT continue and the reactor will shut down.

          • Peter_Roe

            There seem to be several interesting additions to the first version of this application. Rossi notes the presence of zinc, and also sulphur, chlorine, potassium and calcium (isotopic make-up not specified) in the residue, the latter group indicating nuclear fission events. I don’t remember this being in earlier releases (I may be wrong about that). Also I don’t recall any previous references to ‘pulsating’ hydrogen pressures, or an internal thermostat either (same caveats). Rossi also appears to be claiming that copper isotopes can be substituted for nickel isotopes as the ‘fuel’.

            Apart from some fairly general details about shielding materials however, this application seems to be as vague as ever in that insufficient information about the apparatus is provided to allow someone ‘competent in the field’ to replicate the device. The central design of a capsule cooled by external coolant flow must be unpatentable as similar ideas are in widespread use, and as fuel make-up and preparation is not specified, it is difficult to identify exactly what it is that Rossi is trying to protect with this document.

            That said, it is obviously good that there do not seem to be any problems with submitting CF patents to the EPO, although it’s notable that any potential ‘trigger’ terms seem to have been avoided in the application.

            • Max S

              Zn and other elements had already been a part of the long disclosed US patent application, it is nothing new.
              Your statement “his application seems to be as vague as ever” is a fair comment, and this is exactly the problem of this patent.

              • Peter_Roe

                OK, thanks (I was too idle to check).

    • Torbjörn

      Page 20: http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/docservicepdf_pct/id00000009056757.pdf?download

      I remember Rossi saying balls/grains in an interview.

      • Torbjörn

        It seems like the powder contains zinc. (Zn)

  • georgehants

    Just for the guys who like to keep up with what lies behind Cold Fusion.
    —-
    Science News
    … from universities, journals, and other research organizations
    Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory
    ScienceDaily (Oct. 28, 2012) — Physicists have proposed an experiment that could force us to make a choice between extremes to describe the behaviour of the Universe.
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily+%28ScienceDaily%3A+Latest+Science+News%29

    • Robert Mockan

      That would be an interesting experiment. Early in the 20th century Einstein was guided by Mach’s Principle in formulating his general theory of relativity. In general, it states that, local physical laws are determined by the large-scale structure of the universe. In that sense, consequences at a distance, in the universe is not a novel concept. An experiment that shows either that fields can have effects faster-than-light, or that the underlying structure of space-time is everywhere non-local, would help evolve to the next question. That would be what is existence (that includes the universe as only a very small part), how did it begin, and how will it end? Perhaps we will have a whole new growth of faith in supernatural beings to explain that, like people have for alleged creator(s) of the universe.

    • Robert Mockan

      The link you posted may be more relevant to more advanced technology than LENR (although if LENR is a result of Rydberg hydrogen atoms with electron orbit shells dipping in and out of a Casimir space-time region I might need to rethink that). For example the QUENCO (quantum energy converter) device may be where cold fusion understanding was in 1989. Very few scientists believe it is possible, even those who understand the theory behind it, because it appears to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Simply, it applies the quantum effect of electron tunneling through an insulator, then uses a negative charged gate electrode to create an Emf in an external circuit for the electron flow in a solid conductor. Although the individual proposing the power generator concept has been working with inadequate funding and without professional scientist support for many years, the device theory is sound. It is derived from ongoing solid state physics research in top government and corporate laboratories to create the next generation of integrated circuits operating much faster with lower power consumption in a smaller package than anything previously. The Quenco device combines features of the tunnel diode, thermionic heat converters, ballistic electron transistor, and metal-insulator-metal tunnel junction transistor. It is a device based on quantum physics, and as such may very well be an exception to the 2nd law. Here is a link: http://www.quentron.com/

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        In Quenco, they seem to forget that electrons also tunnel in the backward direction, and that flux is smaller than the forward flux only if one maintains a temperature difference. In such a case it acts like a thermionic converter, not a free energy device.
        It’s a mathematical fact that Schrödinger’s equation (the basis of pre-QED quantum mechanics) conserves energy and so does not allow energy to be created from nothing. Whether Schrödinger’s equation is a good enough description of nature is another question, but I didn’t see any references to beyond-Schrödinger physics in quentron.com/theory.html.

        • georgehants

          Morning Pekka, Heisenberg’s matrix mechanics, Schrodinger’s
          wave mechanics, Feynman’s sum over histories all lead to Psi and the measurement problem.
          That is where most of science gives up and simply hides and denies.
          That has been the case for 60+ years.
          The above article shows that the usual few are willing to get their hands dirty and find the answers.
          It does not cost billions to do the Quantum research that would clarify and benefit the whole World.

        • Robert Mockan

          I understand what you are saying about the conservative nature of physics, and it would appear as a consequence that something will prevent the QUENCO from working as described below. Can you point out where the bottleneck is in the QUENCO concept?

          The QUENCO device electron kinetic energy distribution after tunneling is reduced by the mesh electrode between the different work function electrodes. Only the higher kinetic energy electrons can pass the barrier.

          A pure thermionic heat converter is based on that same distribution overcoming the space charge that accumulates over a high temperature low work function emitter electrode, and as you point out a lower temperature collector is required to receive the electron “gas”, as a pure thermionic device generally has a vacuum gap, or plasma filled gap, separating the two electrodes, through which the electrons flow from emitter to collector. That is completely in compliance with the 2nd law, and is a heat engine using an electron “gas”.

          What the Quenco adds to that concept is tunneling through an insulator, and only the higher kinetic energy electrons after tunneling can pass through the potential barrier provided by the higher work function mesh.

          Once on the other side of that barrier they flow to the collector. Why the potential barrier, why not just operate as a typical thermionic converter with the additional feature of tunneling? Because in the opposite direction from the medium work function collector, the high end kinetic energy of the electron distribution is lower, and not sufficient to surmount the potential barrier.

          Thus the QUENCO acts similar to a gated tunnel diode, with a forward bias provided by quantum tunneling rather than from an external Emf.

          The electrons are provided not by thermionic emission as in a thermionic heat converter, but quantum tunneling through the thin insulator. Once they tunnel, and the small fraction of those with high enough kinetic energy pass through the charged mesh potential barrier, they enter the collector because they have no way to return to the emitter except to go through the external metallic electron conductor.

          There is a white paper with the math describing why the QUENCO device can work, but I have not seen it yet. Going by the verbal description, I have many questions also. What I have been studying is a related device called the metal-insulator-metal tunnel transistor. Adding a potential barrier floating electrode gate to the MIMTT would create the QUENCO. Much of the math describing it is similar to what must describe the QUENCO device.

          If the conservation physics apply, it would have something to do with the gate electrode reducing the tunnel probability, but I can not see where as long as the distance from the emitter to the gate is kept long enough so as to not influence tunnel wave function collapse of the electrons. As long as the probability of collapse is maintained after tunneling, they should tunnel.

        • buffalo

          @pekka.a 2nd law violation doesnt get energy from ‘nothing’.it gets energy from ambient heat flowing uphill,without expenditure of energy on our part

        • Robert Mockan

          You said: “Whether Schrödinger’s equation is a good enough description of nature is another question, but I didn’t see any references to beyond-Schrödinger physics in quentron.com/theory.html.”

          Until that question is answered, we have to contend with that experiment outlined at the web site. When the electron current flow increases in an isothermal oven, (constant even temperature throughout the oven),without the pentode vacuum tube having a heat sink for the collector electrode, there is a problem that needs study.

          In that experiment is tunneling through the vacuum causing the electron flow to increase? If it is acting as a thermionic device, where is the heat sink? Both the emitter and collector are at the same temperature, yet there is not just an EMF being generated, but electron current where there should be none.

          • georgehants

            Guys do you agree that this is the level that Cold Fusion should be discussed at.
            Rossi et al has found something that if our Quantum knowledge was where it should be, could have been predicted years ago.
            Once the Quantum explanation of Cold Fusion is found then what other Wonders will that Knowledge lead to.
            The World is Quantum not classical.

            • Robert Mockan

              New knowledge is trailing what is being taught in schools in MANY areas, not just science subjects. But trying to discuss cold fusion at ANY level is a problem when most people are illiterate about science anyway.
              To get up to speed people need disciplines
              that develop when they learn calculus and applied physics. Even at the level used in social sciences would be sufficient.
              Bottom line, when the average person in the country (USA) knows very little about science, it is scary to realize half the people in the country know even less.

      • georgehants

        Morning, as everything is Quantum at base the above has meaning for Cold Fusion and all else.
        As so little is known about the Quantum because of it’s neglect and even denial in many quarters, Physics is left, as with Cold Fusion in working from the bottom up instead of, with knowledge, from the top down.
        —Two misleading things in the above report, it states —
        “The problem is that quantum theory “predicts” bizarre behaviour for particles.”
        It does not just predict, but the examples given are experimentally proven as Fact.
        Second, It fairly reports that the Quantum exceeds the speed of light and points out that “scientists” try to hide this fact behind the information transfer get out, it does not though make totally clear that Nature in the Quantum World sends information FTL as a matter of course, naturally.

        • Chris

          It doesn’t actually imply this, regardless of what it is that you’re calling “the Quantum”.

      • Chris

        I fail to see why being based on quantum physics would imply that it may very well be an exception to the 2nd principle of thermodynamics.

        • Robert Mockan

          Because the 2nd law as presently understood has NEVER been violated in classical physics. More specifically:

          In general the 2nd law states that energy always spreads out from concentrated to less concentrated.

          Although usually misunderstood, the measure of that spreading out is the entropy change, either how much, or how widely it spreads at a constant temperature.

          Keeping in mind that quantum tunneling is a process of energy transfer and not conversion, we have a 2nd law violation if thermal motion of particles at ambient temperature (a constant temperature) is the energy source prior to tunneling.

          If that were the case, it would mean energy is becoming more concentrated prior to tunneling.

          To say that would also mean the QUENCO operates to generate power while cooling the surroundings.

          The only way to retain the 2nd law would be to assume electrons are non-local particles, and those that vanish to tunnel, are NOT the same as those appearing after the tunnel.

          (That raises the question where are they going, and where are they coming from, besides assuming characteristics about electrons that would prohibit the existence of the universe as we know it).

          Thus the implication is that the quantum nature of tunneling in the QUENCO device provides a 2nd law violation.

          • georgehants

            Robert, you seem to be exhibiting the frustration that any body would feel at the incompetence of science to follow the Evidence of the Quantum.

            • Robert Mockan

              LOL! Just a little. My frustrations began long before getting to cold fusion, and more so long before quantum mechanics. Like all kids I was forced to go to school, and they were the public school system. I would say it was all pretty much downhill after the second grade.

            • Chris

              No. Like it or not, he is only making a hash.

              The 2nd principle can be derived from statistical mechanics. It doesn’t suppose classical physics rather than quantum.

              Besides, his NEVER is inaccurate; it’s all a matter of scale and probability.

    • Chris

      Why does this lie behind cold fusion?

      What they quote by Nicolas Gisin (2nd last paragraph) is something I’ve been pondering for several years, even without this experimental result but having looked into Bell’s theorem and results concerning it. It has become quite my own take on the whole matter of the non-local aspects of quantum physics. But I don’t see it as being so relevant for any explanation of cold fusion.

  • Jim

    Listening to just the first ten minutes (notes below) and comparing
    1) the way in which cold fusion was originally condemned and
    2) the amount of LENR research currently available at lenr-canr.org

    is becomes SO CLEAR that the term “Political Science” has two meanings.

    How much more opportunity for progress in the world is locked away with the keys held by those #&@%!’s in Washington?

    Grrr!!!

    3:55 cold fusion underground…attracting multi-million dollar investors
    4:00 interesting pictures of F&P continuing their work, scaling up.
    4:20-ish video refers to F&P approach as “electrolysis”
    5:00-6:00 media buzz
    6:00 “fate of billion dollar hot fusion program hung in the balance”
    7:28 “special committee to investigate cold fusion convened by the department of energy”…Huizenga, Chairman, Department of Energy Panel “we wrote a very negative report” results “were contrary to everything we had found out about nuclear physics in the last 50 years” (((<<<=== meaning everything that Big Energy and Big Science has decided to look at!!!! Grrr!!!!)))
    8:00 physics of columb barrier; why hot fusion works in sun
    8:50 second "impossible" – no radiation … "two miracles were too much"
    9:00 "Nature" article writes off cold fusion

    Aaaahhhgggg!!!!

    • Barry

      Thanks for the summary Jim. Huizenga is close to the top of the list (if not at the top) as far as Cold Fusion villans are concerned.

      • Invy

        Perhaps a lots of these people should be kept on a list and once lenr becomes mainstream we can recommend stripping them of their titles, and erase them from history, except as their role in denying lenr.

        They deserve the same treatment as f and p.

    • jacob

      big energy cartell worldwide, is a force involved in government and politics, to the point of conflict of interest to protect their profits and status unchallenged .

      Jim ,why would we expect anything else, LENR ,cold fusion and other free energy from the fabric of space remains inconvenient for the cartells ,which at this point can be likened to organized crimes of humanity.

      Millions of lives could be saved and improved ,if cheap sources of energy in the form of LENR would get the safety approvals right now.

      The safety of LENR does not seem to be an obstacle anyways,considering dangers of other heatsouces like natural gas ,propane,wood stoves and others,that have contributed to death rates into the millions from fires to carbon monoxide poisenings through the years worldwide.

      The rapid marketing of E-cats is severly hampered by our CSA and UL to the point ,to make it impossible to be implemented in the domestic market.

      shame on CSA and UL for draging their butts on this, to please their big corporate customers and political interests.

      I, for one would not be surprised ,that the LENR device turns out to be as save as a light bulb.

  • clovis

    Hello, folks.
    Frank, i enjoyed the video, had seen it before, but had forgotten some of the stuff in there,it was good to refresh, my memory, which is getting bad, in my old age, -smile.
    And on another front , Dr. rossi if you read this post, i have always hoped that you would let your loyal fan’s and supporters help you in some way, now i know you are a busy man, but would you or can you task this group to help you in some way, maybe in your campaign to help the poor, in this world, i know it’s still early but we can make plans if you give the go ahead there are so many ways that your invention and the money it will bring in, can make our world a much much better place to live for so many, I for one would love to be included in such a plan and i know others here would also be glad to help, so please put us to the task in some way, your loyal fan.— thanks.—Clovis.

  • Fibb

    I saw the CBC version of this in the early nineties. It blew my mind then and it blows my mind now.

    McKubre is featured in this show. He was very successful in replicating the reaction even back then.

  • Gary

    interesting video… How come The US admin know very little on this LENR stuff. Or do they know a lot and are trying to keep it secret because of the lost of revenue from the gas and oil taxes they collect?

    • jacob

      stupid, till the last drop of oil is gone

  • Gary

    damn it… second

  • http://www.we-cat.com John Bull

    First!