Report of Pordenone Meeting from Aldo Proia

Many thanks to Aldo Proia, for sending this detailed report of the Pordenone meeting.

Dear Frank,

As you asked some days ago, I send you a few lines about the meeting organized in Italy by the Technological Pole of Pordenone, which has been an extraordinary opportunity to illustrate the E-Cat technology to a top level public composed of big companies listed on the stock exchange, medium-sized companies, stakeholders, journalists of major national media.

The meeting has been a real success! Eng. Rossi has made a very good impression to the audience, also to the most skeptics, like Franco Battaglia, professor at the University of Modena, in the past opponent of the cold fusion: he has proven to be opened to this revolutionary invention. The final round-table debate has been replaced with many questions to Rossi from the skeptics and from the public.

The requests to participate in the event have been so numerous that the local organizers have generously granted the access of extra audience to a second room connected through a TV cable. The event has been sponsored by the Technological Pole itself and by the regional council Paolo Santin.

The general manager of the Technological Pole, Eng. Franco Scolari, has very kindly offered to Rossi and to us of Prometeon the opportunity to have an office in their new building. So, I would like to thank him for the hospitality and for the good organization by its staff. Thank you also to the collaborators Gino Becevello and Federica Grebello, who have made this event possible.

Rossi has shown to the audience an E-Cat, which was on the table, so anyone could see it up close. His coworkers – the electrical engineer Fulvio Fabiani and the designer Arch. Gianvico Pirazzini – have described in good detail the engineering of the E-Cat and the future marketing of the 1 MW low temperature plant. The Hot Cat in the course of development has been illustrated too.

Regarding the last important test performed on Hot Cat, you have read and widespread the report released from Rossi, anticipating in some way the document that will be released and signed from an independent third party. Here below I would underline some important points regarding such a report.

But, first of all, I would like to clarify some general aspects regarding “self-sustaining” referred to an E-Cat apparatus. When an E-Cat is in “self-sustaining mode”, it means that the reactor absorbs zero energy in input: so, a power meter registers only the electricity needed for the controls, i.e. a few watts.
Well, you can run an E-Cat in: (1) continuous or (2) intermittent self-sustained mode.

The first case is used sometimes for the experimental work but never in front of an audience, as it is unstable, but very impressive because you can reach high COPs: 100-200. So, it is not used in the E-Cats on the market, which operate in an intermittent self-sustained mode with a (guaranteed) COP 6, a very safe and stable condition. I have seen the E-Cat working for long periods in this last modality.

An E-Cat working in intermittent self-sustaining mode is substantially similar to an electric iron, because it alternates phases of on-off regarding the electric input power, but with the difference that an E-Cat produces heat by itself even when it does not absorb electric power.

As the last test on Hot Cat aimed to obtain a (very) conservative estimate of its COP, it was conducted in intermittent self-sustained mode, the same used in a real product. Not considering at all the energy output dissipated by convection and conduction – which accounts for at least a 10-15% more – the measurements clearly show that the guaranteed COP 6 is fully satisfied also for this type of E-Cat!

Indeed, Rossi said that the duration of self-sustained mode, in this test, has been of 218 hours, not 118 as appeared in the first versions of the report for a typo, and the produced energy cited in the document has been cut of 30% to subtract all the possible margins of error. This means a minimum COP near 12.
Please note the simplicity of all energy measurements, made with a top class instrument for the electric input and a thermal camera also used in the military field – and with a 1% accuracy – for estimating the radiative component of the thermal output. Prudently, a below-unit emissivity has been assumed, instead of the correct value “1” for a black body, so the calculated COP is clearly underestimated.

The other very interesting result of this report is the so-called “energy density”, given by the net energy produced (3268 kWh) divided the “active mass”, estimated in a conservative way in 20 grams. So, the energy density is (3268 : 20 =) 163.4 kWh/g, i.e. 163 MWh/kg, which – again – is an underestimate.

For a comparison, the energy density of fossil fuels is typically in the range 9-15 kWh/kg, and the natural Uranium in a light water fission reactor has an energy density of 123.0 MWh/kg, lower than the E-Cat charge! Now, each of us can easily draw his conclusions: mine, is that mankind has “a new fire”…

Kind regards,

Aldo

  • georgehants

    Andrea Rossi
    October 14th, 2012 at 5:22 AM
    Dear Luca Salvarani:
    We are close to the production of electric power, as you correctly said. We have to complete issues, among which the control systems. About this issue: a very smart, genial person wrote somewhere that we have hired to deal with a so much important issue ” an informatic “. This comment merits consideration, because we always have to learn from intelligent persons: it is time to stop the bad attitude that humanity has, leaving important duties to not fit persons, and I agree with this guy ( from now, “The Intelligent”). For example, the Mankind left the duty to develope the Relativity to an employee of a patent office… The Intelligent has, for the benefit of all of us, introduced this important issue, it was time. But this bad attitude of Humanity has deep roots in the past: for example, 1979 years ago Somebody, a big boss, gave the duty to make the Destiny of the world to the son of a carpenter, who at the age of 33 still had to walk on the water ’cause was unable to swim.
    (by the way: Eng. Fabiani comes from the Army, and is electronic and informatic engineer, and has been hired because has invented a system to control our reactors far more genial than the other proposed to us)
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Alessandro Culeddu

      “Power is nothing without control” – by Young & Rubicam

  • Voodoo

    From temp graphs it is clearly obvious

    Rossi use this algorithm for reactor shut-down:

    1. Reactor must reach certain high temp
    2. After that input go down a while
    3. After thar input and temp go steep Up
    4. After that input is shut-down

  • georgehants

    From Physicstoday —
    Science and the Media
    Media outlets consider “cold fusion” and “low-energy nuclear reactions”
    US News, Nature, and the Guardian publicize what a Guardian scientist-blogger calls “boneheaded fantasies.”
    October 12, 2012
    Published: October 12, 2012
    By Steven T. Corneliussen
    Cold fusion is back in the public eye, together with low-energy nuclear reactions, or LENRs.
    Read at —
    http://www.physicstoday.org/daily_edition/science_and_the_media/media_outlets_consider_cold_fusion_and_low-energy_nuclear_reactions

    • Barry

      Thanks George, good find. It seems CF is back on track where it should have been a long time ago. Many have interfered. Perhaps they have become too old and lost their grip on their misuse of power. Like Ron Parker, who was head of the MIT hot fusion research group, who accused Martin Fleischmann of fraud. Then he panicked in fear of being sued and called Eugene Mallove to get him out of it. EM did, but when he stood back and saw the truth, Eugene Mallove resigned.
      History is not going to be kind to many others as well. They should all be listed.

  • ivan_cev

    New fire, New paradigm?
    No to fast, I still need to see the device heating my hot-water tank and saving me 90% of my electricity bill!
    Do not run to fast ahead of yourselfs, Rossi needs to support his figures with real test and demos use of control devices, etc, etc.
    The patent office will never give him a patent unless Rossi shows a working device. so who has to be first the chicken or the egg?
    Some naive idealists are asking for a patent, as the patent office will hear them, stop being childish and request what is realistic.
    So what is realistic is Rossi giving a working device to the patent office, and giving serious scientific demos to twist the patent office hand.
    He will risk giving his secrets? so there is no choice, as you have seen, He will only be able to sell to secret organizations.
    Real clients like you and me will never put a hand in a ecat, unless Rossi shows his device works and twist the hand of the patent office by giving uncontroversial test.
    There is no other way… if He takes longer to act, some one will catch up as we are seeing multiple reports of more and more advances in LENR.
    Rossi should be happy to get a couple of hundred million dollars instead of trying to fully control the destiny of the ecat, otherwise he will get zero, cero, nothing, nada…..

    • Dickyaesta

      If a tree falls in a forest nearby you and you haven’t seen it fell, does that mean the tree has not fallen or that you havenot seen it fall 🙂
      Saludos from Spain

      • Dickyaesta

        @Ivan,

        And once and for all the concept of a chicken had to be there first. If the chicken not layed his first egg you could never have asked the seemingly eternal question :”Was there an egg before the chicken”, just a thought 😉
        Saludos once again,

        Didymus

        • Peter_Roe

          It had to be the egg first. Assuming a genetic ‘definition’ of a ‘chicken’, a hen might nearly correspond to this definition, but not quite. It would therefore not be a ‘chicken’ as defined. However, through genetic mutation or mating with just the right cockerel, it could lay the first egg that contains the full genetic code as defined for a ‘true chicken’ for the very first time. An egg can only produce what it is already genetically programmed to produce, so the change point is between chicken and egg. Therefore the egg must be the first to contain the ‘correct’ genetic code, even though it comes from a chicken that does not.

          • Dickyaesta

            @Peter,

            We are on the same line the concept(underlined) of a chicken has to be there first in order to design an egg that produces a chicken. As you have to have a concept of a turkey to have a turkey’s egg 😉

            Saludos from Spain
            Dickyaesta

          • Barry

            But what laid the egg? (sorry Frank, just a little off topic)

    • HeS

      @:”So what is realistic is Rossi giving a working device to the patent office”

      Is it joke?
      Who brought DEVICE to patent, to patent office (maybe “standard” nuclear reactor inventor:)???

    • Omega Z

      ivan

      The Chicken came 1st. Determined long a go. The mythical statement hangs on.

      As for the Patent. A working E-cat with documentation/track record under private/corporate ownership will suffice.
      After a time Rossi can arrange a demo at his expense to demonstrate his product to personnel from the Patent office. The patent will be granted as history shows.

      As for Rossi’s secret sauce, It does Not need to be disclosed. It’s a common practice of many products in the market today.

      No doubt some Corporation will in time obtain this secret in due course, but only in order to help them create their own. It will not be replicated by them for use.

      The Technology to obtain this information already exists. The process has already been discussed nearly 2 years ago. This is why Rossi will determine Who will be his Customers until the Patent is Granted. Wanting & having the Funds to purchase an E-cat at this time doesn’t mean you will obtain 1. You have to go through & pass a Screening process by Leonardo Corp. If you pay attention to all that Rossi say’s, You would know that the E-cat at this time is a selective customer process.

      The Tamper alert system is for the lay person. Big Corporations in possession of an E-cat could learn all it’s secrets without ever taking it a part in short order. As stated above, the technology required & how to do this has already been discussed. This is Why Rossi plays his cards close to the chest.

  • Andrea Di Luccio

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfWr1c7oqCQ

    Listening to Rossi speaking “in colors” as he sayd is just amazing and interesting.

  • http://www.american-reporter.com Joe Shea

    “Mankind has ‘a new fire…'” What a wonderful idea and phrase!

    • Kim G. Patterson

      Mankind also has the same owners.

      Same Problem, different fire.

      Respect
      Kim

      • Tangled Connections

        +1

    • Omega Z

      Joe

      Looks like a hot kitten.

      I speak of the red head on the left at about 10 seconds in. LOL

    • Steve B

      obviously Rossi did not think “new fire” it was such a good name.
      The trademark was abandonded because Rossi did not reply to the office inquiry.

      from the US patent and trademark database:

      Word Mark E – CAT – THE NEW FIRE
      Goods and Services (ABANDONED)
      …..
      Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
      Serial Number 79105490
      Filing Date August 10, 2011
      Current Basis 66A
      Original Filing Basis 66A
      International Registration Number 1097571
      Owner (APPLICANT) LEONARDO CORPORATION UNKNOWN 1331 Lincoln Road, Suite 601 Miami Beach, FL 33139 UNITED STATES
      Priority Date June 30, 2011
      Type of Mark TRADEMARK. SERVICE MARK
      Register PRINCIPAL
      Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
      Abandonment Date June 17, 2012

    • Barry

      +1

  • Roger Bird

    I ask this as a persistent Rossi skeptic: why would a scammer invent a story about intermittent self-sustain mode? In fact, why would a scammer think of such a story, and why would they want to publish such a story? It does not make sense, unless Rossi is for real. It is such an elaborate con that it violates Occam. One would think that if Rossi were conning us, his story would not have this difficult complication.

    • daniel maris

      Yes,I’ve always thought Rossi doesn’t really fit the scammer mould. Maybe more delusional if not genuine.

  • georgehants

    The delay in knowing that Rossi definitely has a technology of the capabilities that he and Defkalion claim, is now causing serious problems.
    If governments had such conformation then the energy planning they have under way would have to be publicly reviewed and changed,under the knowing scrutiny of the population.
    The immediate release is not so important as the unambiguous knowledge that it is practical and shortly available.
    Rossi is now undoubtedly, unreasonably, (if genuine) effecting the welfare and safety of the World.
    There are many possible reasons for commercial and academic silence and confusion, but the time has passed when fair justification can be allotted to these considerations.
    No one needs to know the secrets, but the definitive proof that the breakthrough is genuine and practical is now essential.
    Mr. Rossi time to stop peeing around and show your hand.

    • Ivan_cev

      George, you finally asking what I have been asking for a while now.
      Rossi prove your claims!

      • daniel maris

        Funny – I normally George for being unduly optimistic. In the light of this post I would say he is being unduly pessimistic.

        I feel we can wait a few weeks. I get the sense things are bubbling up nicely. We are either in for the launch pad experience – all systems go – or a complete crash. Come the New Year there won’t be any doubt on that.

        • Zordo

          Oh, yes, we can wait few weeks. And few weeks more. And more. And more. And……

          • daniel maris

            No, I don’t agree. I always felt October 12 was about the crunch time on the basis of what Rossi said towards the end of last year. Things really do need to start happening now. And perhaps they are with this conference. We will see.

          • Barry

            Don’t you see the progress Zordo, from Nov 2011 to now?

      • captain

        Wrong, wrong, wrong and to me U remain a skeptic.

        Now Rossi has nothing to demonstrate to U and to the others: he’s awaiting that USPTO and UL give him his recognized brevets/patents and certifications.

        I repeat USPTO and UL. THEY HAVE TO DO SOON AND WELL THEIR DUTY.
        Give Rossi what belongs to Rossi.

        And U can keep on posting hot air in all the blogs U like, with kind admins’ permission.

    • Fibb

      georgehant, I really appreciate your singular post. You make a very important point. I wholeheartedly agree – the time has come for Rossi and others (like Dick Weir at EEStor) to reveal what they have and send all nations back to the energy policy drawing board before more money and blood is unnecessarily wasted on fossil fuels.

    • captain

      Hi George, Rossi needs his IP duly and soon protected, OK?

      Important ==> for skeptics and the like.

      And for practical 1MW thermal plants operation, plz ask to US Navy (as 1st possible military customer) and maybe to http://www.usag.vicenza.army.mil/sites/local/about_usag_vicenza.asp (as possible, repeat possible 2nd military customer).
      Vicenza’s garrison is relatively close to Bologna, Italy.

      IMHO obviously 🙂

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      georgehants: So, issue him a patent. There is no reason for governments to deny LENR patents, except for political/big corporate money reasons.

      • AstralProjectee

        Bernie ~ “There is no reason for governments to deny LENR patents, except for political/big corporate money reasons.”

        No, they deny cold fusion patents based on the MIT experiment that the government paid for the try and replicate the Pons and Fleishman effect. If the MIT experiment worked and or if cold fusion was proven otherwise then they would have no reason to deny cold fusion claims. The USPTO has very little incentive with corporate or politically to deny this claim.

        Let me ask you if you worked as an employee at the patent office would you not have to listen to what your peers tell you, to deny cold fusion patents until we have universal proof/acceptance of this technology?

        BTW I do believe Rossi likely has what he claims.

        Peace.

        • http://www.lenrforum.eu Alain

          yes, don’t think organization have an independent brain.
          The behavior of those big animals is only consequence of single selfish, fearful, limited, scrudge and greedy brains…

          As I’ve heard from so having been part of an FBI exchange, FBI prefer to obey the manual and kill the hostage than risk to be sued, and they are right… because if obeying the law lead to stupid results, the guilty is the law writer.

          US is corrupted with fear of being sued because nobody agree on real values and that law is the only common accepted value. Hopefully for US, that lack of common shared values is spreading to europe with similar effect.

      • Karl

        I fully agree. The real crime is that the patent structure created several hundred years ago allow innovators 20 years protection while they can invest and concentrate their work. This type of protection has clearly been prohibited in the field of CF/LENR type of innovations.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    All the skeptics should focus their ire on the Patent offices. They are refusing LENR patent applications when it has been proven in labs all over the world! ISSUE ROSSI A PATENT. We will then see his theory behind the E-Cat and why his invention is so much more productive than other LENR devises. IF the E-Cat works, everyone in Leonardo Corporation will become a billionaire. If it does not work, they will get less than zero, and if there is fraud, as many of you are suggesting, they will be prosecuted. Personally I think Rossi should not be publishing any information until after Beta testing proves or disproves his invention.

    • Ivan_cev

      Bernie, A validation test could be done as a black box without compromising the secrets!
      skepticisim is healthy makes the truth be the truth.
      You just can not go on beliving every snake oil sales man speach.

      • captain

        ISSUE ROSSI A PATENT IMMEDIATELY ’cause the ‘magic toy’ has a NEW FIRE with the possibility to increase soon after to 10, 20 or even 50 the COP…

        And some people still discussing ’bout a COP of 2, 3 ore a little bit more…
        Italians in their blogs are more serious, even too much serious but don’t put in discussion the COP, that can be tremendously high.

      • Warthog

        Cold fusion as a general topic area (non-Rossi) has been replicated multiple times, in multiple places, by credible scientists. There is NO valid reason for the Patent Office to categorically reject patents regarding “cold fusion”/LENR, which they have been doing. The MIT and CalTech experiments have been shown to be wrong (not run long enough to initiate the Pons/Fleischmann effect).

  • Adam Lepczak

    Greetings,
    New YT videos from Pordenone Meeting as uploaded by user:
    massimo bianchi

    http://youtu.be/HRzUxddkh3c
    http://youtu.be/ORKuZCe-UQw
    http://youtu.be/SLJMkfkA_SU
    http://youtu.be/fktGGqAOGjQ

    Even thought I don’t understand (yet) Italian, in my opinion the body language of DR. Rossi is very telling…

    P.S. The videos are still being processed by Youtube…

    • captain

      Extremely interesting news from said videos (I’m still listening to them): it’s the right time, this time, to have the 1MW thermal plant on the market, very likely starting from Italy.
      You buy one plant and in due time. after 6 mths of continuous operation, its container is immediately replaced with a new one, even updated, by Leonard corp. The old container plant will be refitted in Leonardo’s factory (Italy and US…).
      Possibilities in the future to increase its COP, say up to 10….
      Very interesting news.

      It’s possible that Leonardo core business will remain in Italy.
      It’s just the beginning of a new big source of clean, safe, cheap energy.

    • Luca Salvarani

      Likely there will be soon videos with english subtitles…

    • Ged

      Fascinating… People filling the entire room, lining the walls, and spilling into the hallway.. and they stayed throughout.

      Dang, so wish I could speak Italian, have to wait for transcripts I think. Heard a lot of people addressed as Professor and give their areas of expertise (at least two did, one was a professor of engineering, and another of physical chemistry, I think). I’m not sure what’s going on in the third video at about 30 minutes in; why the mic is being passed out to all those different individuals and what they are saying. I think they are introducing themselves?

      On to video 4… Want to see if they filmed the glimpse of the new hot cat version.

      Edit: Yep, end of the fourth video at about 17:50 we see it, and it even gets passed around the table a bit. Very interesting; nice to see its size in perspective. Wonder what its internal structure is like now; the end caps are clearly separate from the cylinder portion, at least it seems from the video.

      • Luca Salvarani

        To everybody

        Let me suggest you to listen carefully the very last Rossi’s words, his last minute speech. It explains pretty much all!

      • Luca Salvarani

        To Ged

        Professor Franco Battaglia is well known here in Italy, even in the mainstream for his media appearance. He’s an expert in the field of nuclear energy, chemistry and environment. At the very Rossi beginning I wrote an e-mail to him (because I appraise him) to aks his opinion and he was, and still is, a true skeptic but open to this new technology, as every real scientists should be. There are also other professors and entrepeneurs in specific field such as hydrogen production (the latter in particular was interested in the new Rossi technology for its release, the so called “pastiglia”). In the room there was a lot of corporate experts which represented their corporations.

        • Luca Salvarani

          To Ged

          Those people (since minute 30 of the third video untill the end) asked some different questions to Rossi. Those questions are mainly technical but covered also the environmental and economic impact of the e-cat.

          • Ged

            Awesome, thanks for giving the synopsis!

  • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

    Even with the correction to the correction to the correction he has made a gross error. The term (Te – Tr + 273)^4 = 2.838 x 10^12 is wrong it should be (Te + 273)^4 -(Tr + 273)^4 = 3.06 x 10^12 .

    • Ged

      Indeed, that still is uncorrected. Though I wouldn’t call it a “gross” error at least (it’s only a 7.3% lower value), but still an error that lowers the final power out calculation below what it should be.

      • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

        Actually it raises it but the thing is it is sloppy and makes me question his abilities.

        • Ged

          I dunno, I feel we’re being a bit too harsh here. Just because one equation is slightly misdone to lower the COP we calculate even more conservatively from what it should be (what I meant is that if you calculate it right, as you did, the output power was more than that reported, so the COP is greater than reported), doesn’t mean we should question wholesale someone’s abilities. That’s just silly in my view. Mistakes happen, and even if this report is slightly sloppy, it isn’t that big an error.

          Still, for completely accurate numbers, we have to wait for that university report; as it is their job to be accurate.

  • edog

    I wonder how long the periods of “self-sustaining” mode last for??

    Yes I know.. approximately 2/3 of the time the device was operating.

    But.. was that of multiples of 20 seconds with power.. 40 seconds without?

    Can heat be rapidly extracted from the device and the self-sustain continue?

    I must admit it does all sound too good to be true! Whats the catch?

    For ROSSI…

    A SIMPLE VIDEO OF THE HOT ECAT RUNNING ISOLATED AND UNPLUGGED WOULD BE A GREAT SUPER FANTASTICO START (or WARM UP pun intended) TO THE PUBLICITY CAMPAIGN THAT MUST BE UNDERTAKEN BY LEONARDO CORP IF YOU DO TRULY INTEND TO SELL THESE DEVICES TO PEOPLE LIKE ME…

    AND FOR VERY LITTLE EXPENSE!!! HOW MUCH IS A GOOD QUALITY youtube.com video??? THEREFORE YOU CAN SPEND MORE MONEY ON MAKING THE PRODUCT MORE EFFICIENT AND LESS ON ADVERTISING.

    sorry about the CAPS.. but Rossi seems to like them….

    🙂

    • Andrew Macleod

      The electronic controls still need power.

      • stuey81

        why can it have a few AA batterys for the controls?

  • Pedro

    There is a big paradox in the working of the eCat/hotCat…
    Suppose I have a mass of 4.3 kg of iron and some electrical coil running through it. When I apply electricity to that coil, the iron will start to heat up, until it reaches some peak temperature where the heat generated by the coil is balanced by the heat loss to the environment.
    Now switch the 4.3 kg of iron to be a hotCat… Again, when electricity is applied, it will start to heat up, but at some point it will “ignite” and generate far more heat than can be explained by the heat generated by the electrical coil. I presume that happens when the hotCat is heated above a certain temperature (Rossi suggested that the device could also run on natural gas, so heat is most likely the trigger and not EM).
    Once the reaction kicks in, the device starts to generate 11.7 times more heat than it would generate on electricity alone (that’s what a COP of 11.7 implies).
    If I now switch of the electricity, there is no way the device could start to cool down… it’s own heat will keep the device heated up and therefore keep the reaction going. If I switch on the electricity again, that should also have no effect because the “little bit” of heat generated by the coil is completely overshadowed by the 11.7 times larger amount of heat generated by the device itself.
    Why does the device need the electricity switched on and off all the time? Why isn’t it by its very nature a self-sustained device once it’s heated up??? There is no chance the electricity is used to cool down the device when it get’s to hot, because there is no cooling equipment attached to the hotCat.
    What is the function of the electricity on/off cycle? Any ideas?

    • Ged

      In Zurich we saw the “heat after death” curve, that is the curve down of temperature after input has stopped. The hot cat takes a long time to cool off (in fact, they stop measuring it long before it actually cools to room temp), which suggests to me the reaction does keep going (but it loses more heat than it generates and so eventually dies). Now, this new hot cat design apparently lacks the exposed inner tube, and so would do better at retaining heat.

      So, the real question is, what do they do to quench the reaction on demand, especially with this new hot cat? Since we see self sustaining, you’re right, it is able to keep itself going. Maybe it loses power very slowly and still needs a bumper after a few days. But how do you quench it, unless with active cooling?

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      The cooling power of the device is some function of temperature, which for high temp is approximately like T^4 (radiation-dominated). The anomalous heating power is some other function of T which is known to AR but not to us. Apparently the anomalous power must increase with T somewhat milder than T^4, otherwise the HotCat would always go to thermal runaway. The system must be designed so that without driver (whose role is to give a constant offset to the heating curve) the heating curve is always below the cooling curve, but when the driver is included, the two curves intersect at some point T which is the operating temperature. The point T must be stable in the sense that a small increase in T causes more cooling and heating, and a small decrease in T causes more heating the cooling, i.e., the cooling curve must have a steeper T-dependence at T than the heating curve. It works, but it becomes progressively more difficult to engineer with higher and higher COP, unless one uses some moving radiation shields, thermal bridges or other active devices that the control software can use to modify the cooling function on the fly.

      • Ged

        Beautiful answer, Pekka.

        • Omega Z

          @ Pekka

          @ Ged

          Don’t Overlook the RFG. Electricity is require even with NG heat.

          I would suggest that the process continues even when the power is shut off but still dies without the RFG as suggested in the heat death curve.(Death Slower then anticipated.)

          The Drive part has puzzled me for a while. I understand the start up as a certain temp needed to be reached to start the process. The RFG Also required to keep it going. A recent Idea/conclusion I have thought about as of late….

          Over a period of time, Cold spots develop causing stability issues. This is when drive needs to be applied to keep the reaction stable.

          Rossi’s little black control box monitors the situation & determines when this is needed.

          What do you think?

          Also, with these cold spots, the Hot spots could become to hot.- Runaway, nickel melt & core death.

      • Mark

        To know the anomalous heating power curve
        we need to know the theory behind the reaction,
        or to collect enough valid data from trial-and-error
        experiments.
        As long as we don’t have any of it, we have
        to hope that Rossi made enough of homework
        to have a replicable device.
        What is really strange, that the best labs –
        McKubre’s SRI, Zawodny’s NASA – have not been
        able to find and patent the ‘magic dust’, the
        catalyzer, that is at the core of the E-CAT.
        And why Rossi have not patented a chemical
        formula or chemical ingredient that can
        trigger a non-chemical reaction?

        • Omega Z

          Mark

          It has been suggested by Focardi that Rossi tried something that would be highly unlikely to have been thought of by those in the LENR Field.

          This actually happens quite often in life. A laymen trying something because he doesn’t know it shouldn’t work. Yet Does.

          An example where to much Education can be detrimental to Learning. Like those taught that CF is impossible so why investigate it.

          Rossi- Edison-The Light bulb. Throw everything at it. See what sticks. Some of what Edison tried seems absolutely Ridiculous But his approach worked.

          • Robert Mockan

            I’m inclined to agree with you. Andre Rossi seems something of a throw-back to another age. Probably a romanticist in the historical sense. A creative genius among pragmatists. He seems to have adapted pretty well to a square world, and can hold his own, obviously, but how different the world might already be if he did not have to fight forward all the time. It must be exhausting.

          • KPS

            I would indeed qualify as one of those laymen, and I’m thinking there could be two separate effects regulated by the electrical input. The first would be resistance heating to get the reaction started because it requires a certain temperature to trigger. The second could possibly be more “catalytic” than triggering?

            From my understanding LENR is a nano scale surface phenomena. This would imply that the strenght of the effect is dependant on the total contact surface of the involved materials. What if the power input also serves to regulate the contact surface, thus speeding up the reaction?

            To do an analogy it would be a little bit like trying to start a fire in a pile of sawdust. Lighting it by putting a match to it is quite difficult. Take a spoonful and pour it over an open flame however; wham! Because now the total contact surface of the reagents (fuel/wood and oxygen) are many times greater.

            In the case of the E-cat the input power would then serve both as the match to trigger the reaction and to somehow “stir the pot” to increase it. If no “stirring” occurs the reaction slowly dies out (COP < 1).

            The E-cat can apparently run in self-sustain mode as well, but so could a sawdust fire assuming it has reached a high enough temperature.

            Could this make sense?

        • http://www.lenrforum.eu Alain

          “What is really strange, that the best labs –
          McKubre’s SRI, Zawodny’s NASA – have not been
          able to find and patent the ‘magic dust’, the
          catalyzer, that is at the core of the E-CAT.”

          Piantelli found NiH reactions few month after F&P in 89-90, (see peter gluck comment quoted here http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=708#p2602 ) yet it became popular much later in 2005+ , and is still heavily criticized by some hard scientist in LENr community…

          Peter gluck also quote the work of Leslie Case who discovered catalytic LENR…
          maybe Rossi just read the articles like Defkalion say they do, and say they find much in public litterature…

          as I say, there is nothing important hidden, just things carefully ignored.
          My hypothesis is that Rossi invented nothing else standing up on the shoulder of ignored shy giants. which is great.

      • Pedro

        Thanks Pekka, your theory makes sense.
        If I understood correctly, taking away the electricity causes the device to cool a little bit, which in turn kills the LENR effect a bit, which causes the device to cool down even further, etc. At some point the electricity has to been applied again to reverse the effect and get the LENR effect up again. How often and how long to apply the electricity is a balancing act.. More electricity gives more extra heat but also lowers the COP. In addition, there may be an optimum temperature where the extra heat effect is largest. The latter may also be influenced by the nano structure of the charge. Once they develop a good theory of LENR it becomes easier to model all these effects and optimize the device. I guess this is only the start of something with a much bigger potential!

        • ivan_cev

          Hang on, assuming Rossi is real, It still makes no sense to me, and the original paradox question still stands.
          As Rossi has said the control unit is not in the device, this means heat is actually not controlling the reaction otherwise will be like increasing the power of a house fire with a single matchstick. the orders of magnitude given by the COP make this no reasonable.
          There have to be some mysterious mechanism to control the reaction, radio waves, certain frequency of electric pulses etc. otherwise you can not control a huge heat with small heat. as heat travels from hot to cold.
          Any one could see an analogy in another field to explain the paradox?
          My point is, if this is real is not controlled by heat.

          • Ged

            I don’t see the paradox you are alluding to. Or at least I’m not sure what you are alluding to. Pekka answered all that.

            Heat is necessary for activating the reaction (>100 C). However, the reaction is slow enough that heat is lost faster at room temperature than is made; so it slowly cools and ceases if there isn’t input to keep it above the temperature of activation.

            Now, how one modulates the reaction dynamically — tuning it — that indeed is still a mystery, though it is possible to modulate the input for accomplishing that, as Pekka’s ideas also suggest. Still… I agree with you fully that part is a mystery.

            • Ivan_cev

              Pekka explanation will only make sense if the COP is less or equal to 1

              • Ivan_cev

                A COP 10 you have 10 times more heat in the reaction that in the input.
                the point of start of reaction is 10% final heat. the the functions will never intersect. they are in different orders of magnitude.
                The cruzial point here is that heat travel from point of high entropy to point of low entropy.
                The temp of the e-cat will have to be lower that the temp capable to be produced by the input for Pekka’s ideas to be true, at the instant of start a new cycle.
                The total energy of the system is input+reaction output, but heat travels like electricity in a diode, in one direction only.

                • G_Zingh

                  My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that there are two reactions. One with the nano nickel powder and hydrogen, and one with the gamma rays and the steel enclosure.

                  The electrical resistance drive heats up the the nickel/hydrogen. This generates gamma rays (of some sort) and these then heat up the steel enclosure and emit heat to the room/boiler.

                  Given the mass of nickel powder as compared to the much larger mass of the enclosure it is easy to see how a COP of 20 or higher is possible as we are dealing with more than just heat radiation from the core. COP measures energy not heat.

                  It is then possible that at any time the core and the enclosure are at two different operating temperatures; but we don’t know the secrets of the internal mechanism.

                • ivan_cev

                  Zing,
                  Heat is energy
                  COP measures the relation between input and output energy

                • G_Zingh

                  I understand what you are saying but the world doesn’t always agree.

                  heat |hēt|
                  noun
                  1 the quality of being hot; high temperature : it is sensitive to both heat and cold.
                  • hot weather conditions : the oppressive heat was making both men sweat.
                  • a source or level of heat for cooking : remove from the heat and beat in the butter.
                  • a spicy quality in food that produces a burning sensation in the mouth : chili peppers add taste and heat to food.
                  • Physics heat seen as a form of energy arising from the random motion of the molecules of bodies, which may be transferred by conduction, convection, or radiation.
                  • technical the amount of heat that is needed to cause a specific process or is evolved in such a process : the heat of formation.
                  • technical a single operation of heating something, esp. metal in a furnace.
                  2 intensity of feeling, esp. of anger or excitement : words few men would dare use to another, even in the heat of anger.
                  • ( the heat) informal intensive and unwelcome pressure or criticism, esp. from the authorities : a flurry of legal proceedings turned up the heat in the dispute.
                  3 a preliminary round in a race or contest : the 200-meter heats.

          • Omega Z

            ivan_cev

            I understand what your saying about the heat. Has puzzled me for sometime. It seems counter intuitive.

            Read what I suggested above to Ged & Pekka. If this is the case it makes sense.

            • ivan_cev

              All this business about control by heat makes no sense, as 1050 is the average, or is constant? if is average, then there will be higher values, and Nickel will be melted.
              Pekka hypotheses is absolutely impossible, “if the device work”. the control has to be a parameter that is not heat. and using this parameter you could turn on and off the reaction.
              But still the problem about thermodynamic and flux of heat and input power, f the device produces 10 times more heat than the input, then when controlling the device there is no need of more input, it should be a device working in self-sustained mode controlled by a parameter other than heat.
              So the paradox still valid and for me is a huge red… no purple flag that put in risk the validity of the device.
              The thermodynamic flux and the logic analysis of it does not stand a rigorous evaluation.
              1.- The orders of magnitude difference of heat.
              2.- The thermodynamic flux.
              3.- The need of a external control
              4.- why would you need an input power 10 times less than the working regime.
              5.- the different temperatures needed if the control was by heat. as the average temp 1050 c. if is an average then higher temperatures are needed (not possible)
              6.- if is control by heat then the temperature of the device at the start of each cycle has to be lower that the temp potential of the input power, otherwise there is no heat flow.

              • Omega Z

                ivan

                1st- Heat is used to start the process. Pekka says >100`C. Everyone doing LENR does this. So I assume we can all agree to this point.

                Rossi says without his catalyst he gets the same results as others. Works to a degree by itself. The Catalyst promotes or enhances the process. Others are now saying the same thing.

                YOUR discussion seems to be how the heat is used to control the reaction when the E-cat is already hot.

                I’m no expert, but here’s my 2 cents worth.

                Once the process starts, itself sustains from the Reactions taking place. Possibly Nuclear of some type. Kept under control by Frequency or pulse energy.

                Over a period of time, cold spots develop. The heat is no longer evenly produced. Instability develops.

                This is when the control box kicks in the Electric drive to even out the heat causing non active areas to become active. I assume the heat activates the cold spots as an NG system would have no pulses.

                The Additional heat can be used to help control the E-cat, But it is only 1 of several things used. Not the only 1.

                Thou probably a bad comparison, Firefighters build backfires to Help control primary fires.

  • Frank Sedei

    I believe I can say that I have been a witness to greatness in this whole, ongoing Rossi experiment.

  • Dino Bacci

    Does somebody know that the Ni powders used are Ni enriched with isotopes 62Ni and 64Ni ? this was confirmed by Andrea Rossi in Pordenone. What is the purpose ?

    • Peter_Roe

      Rossi’s original hypothesis was that the nickel isotope 58Ni in natural nickel could be transmuted into an unstable copper isotope (59Cu) which would then decay, liberating energy ((58Ni + p → Cu59) → (Ni59 + ν + e+) then e- + e+ → γ + γ). If the current fuel is ‘enriched with isotopes 62Ni and 64Ni’ this might also be read as ‘depleted in 58Ni’. Perhaps Rossi is actually trying to block the 58Ni→59Cu pathway to prevent transmutation and increase the efficiency of another process? Alternatively the heavier isotopes might be more efficient at supporting the pathway he does want to promote.

      There would be no need for Rossi to make his own isotopically-modified nickel – he could buy it from a company that refines 58Ni practically as a waste material. As it would be in solution, precipitating out a nanopowder would be a relatively simple operation.

    • http://www.lenrforum.eu Alain

      according to Defkalion report
      http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/download/file.php?id=26
      “We realized also that 58Ni, 60Ni, 62Ni and 64Ni stable
      isotopes where “willing” to participate in a LENR
      reaction, whilst 61Ni was not. So there was no need for
      any costly enrichment method.”

    • Max S

      actually Rossi was claiming in 2011 that he used Ni62 enriched material, claiming he invented a cheap method for preparation.
      Normally this would require a neutron enrichment and separation which is more a technology for a special nuclear laboratory and it certainly isn´t cheap. The explanation is not credible. I believe that Rossi made up the story when he was challenged that his process as originally claimed, starting from natural Ni58 and transmutations, would theoretically create high energy gamma rays.

  • Ivan Mohorovicic

    A short video from Pordenone:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRzUxddkh3c

  • vbasic

    For all the hand wringing skeptics have over the COP and ways to correctly calculate, isn’t there a simpler way to judge the machine. How about the way a business would do it? Find a heater that industries use to heat stuff to 1050 C. Hook it to your standard electric meter the type the meter reader uses. Hook the hot cat doing the same work to a similar meter. After a few months, read the meters. The hot cat bill should be 6 times cheaper. Whether it’s LENR or the worlds most efficient electric heater, a buyer wouldn’t care, if it lowers their electric bills that much.

    • Adam Lepczak

      Hello,
      I think that realistically all of us expect the HC to be connected to some sort of a heat engine that drives the electric generator. The generator feeds the electricity back to the grid effectively “rolling back” the electric meter…

      • vbasic

        True, but many industries need heat. The point of the 1MW thermal plant and home cats is to make heat. So a test of industrial electric heaters versus the hot cat would be useful.

        • Kim G. Patterson

          Yes heat is a big issue in industry.

          High heat and steam is used in all
          industrial applications, HUGE !

          Respect
          Kim

    • Sanjeev

      vbasic, I agree with you, there are far more simpler ways to judge the machine. The simplest way is to stand in front of it and watch your jaw drop as it pours out 1000 degrees of heat without any input power. The drop length of your jaw is its COP 😉

      But all we have is these pieces of bones Rossi throws at us from time to time, and we must chew it well to feel comfortable. Else, its all hush hush and top secret. There are no machines to judge.

  • Carlo Marcena

    In Proia press release, please replace 9-15 MWh/kg with 9-15 kWh/kg.
    Congratulations to everybody is working to develop this game changer invention: Rossi, Proia, all engineers involved, media … everybody

    Regards,
    CM

  • Robert Mockan

    Time to refocus attention on the precise procedure for making LENR catalyst, and providing the knowledge to every person in the world.

    Can you imagine having a handful of nickel powder treated to be a LENR fuel, that provides more energy than a conventional nuclear reactor, safely, with no way for the world energy cartel to control people using it to make their own energy for any purpose they choose?

    Live off the grid? Power your car, your boat, your plane?

    It all becomes not just possible, but feasible, when COP becomes much greater than 6. Forget the “intermittent” self sustain mode. These things are going to run HOT!, and FAST!, when people finally get LENR catalyst.

    No more begging for a fish to eat. We all want, need, and deserve, our own fishing poles, so we can each catch our own fish.

    Rossi, you finally get a C grade for one of your demonstrations! Now really start watching your back!
    If what you are saying you have accomplished is real, you just blew the oligarchy that rule this world back to hell. They are not going to be pleased!

    (Now please do not disappoint again with more “corrections” of the data saying that the self sustain mode can not be continuous).

    • Jim

      While waiting for catalyst information from Leonardo (which is not in their interest to release):

      MFMP (actively working with Celani)looks like the leading “open” test platform for 1) replication at all 2) optimizing reactive compounds, 3) optimizing driver functions.

      http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/replicate/progress-blog

      another possibility

      google fusioncatalyst.org/open-catalyst/peer-pressure/

      “When” MPFM (or other) achieves general replicability, optimal compound/driver search can begin in earnest.

      • Robert Mockan

        A few researchers have already broken away from using nickel, and are operating at infinite COP using other elements and compounds. For example here:
        https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxvaGlvdG9pb3xneDpjZGMzM2VjNGQwY2ExZDc

        If you look at page 13 you will see the chart for the cobalt and gadolinium nano particles with potassium hydride as a promoter. Like with other experiments the metal particles appear to become thermally activated at about 350 C, and quickly generate heat and maintain 450 C for weeks at a time.

        Clearly we are looking at a phenomena that is not limited to just nickel, and clearly also electricity is NOT needed for many other LENR catalysts, and they can use self generated heat to maintain the reactions.

        But the synthesis procedure still needs to be optimized so that any person can make catalyst, and many more experiments need to be done to reach the highest temperatures for the longest times.

        I would like to see verified the use of the gaseous germanium hydride reacting with alkali hydride to generate LENR temperatures over 2000 C documented a few years ago. The germanium forms nano-particles suspended in the reactor but it is still unknown if the LENR heat is being generated on the germanium particle surfaces, or in the gaseous mixture. In any event if that reaction could be optimized for a much higher power level as the Rossi catalyst, it might be interesting to design a rocket engine using it.

    • Filip47

      Glad to have you back on the optimistic side 🙂

      • Robert Mockan

        I am always an optimist, but I have no problem roasting Rossi when he botches what should be simple reports.

        • Omega Z

          Robert

          The Fact that he has shown that there will be a COP breakout in time must make you Smile. Just saying as I’m aware that’s been 1 of your pet peeves.

          • Robert Mockan

            I am smiling, but this insistence by Rossi to keep COP=6 for commercial products has been baffling. The COP limit, for “safety”, is probably a solvable physics or engineering problem, and he could get it solved quickly if he would simply open source what he is doing with the current and let thousands, if not millions, of science talent solve it for him, probably in a few days, if not hours. Undoubtedly the solution is already out there somewhere, given the knowledge base in physics and engineering that exists. All Rossie has to do is ASK for help (the dope!). Then we can all have our COP=20, or whatever, LENR reactors, and stop this goofing around with COP=6 hot water heaters. Many readers here have already done the cost analysis for COP=6 in their homes and the numbers are crummy for electric power savings. COP=20 would be a game changer.

  • Peter_Roe

    A couple of quibbles:

    “Prudently, a below-unit emissivity has been assumed, instead of the correct value “1” for a black body, so the calculated COP is clearly underestimated”

    Emmissivity of 1 means 100% radiation efficiency – a true ‘black body’ that the special paint is supposed to achieve as closely as possible (if it doesn’t then Rossi wasted a lot of money on it). A value of 1 means that no compensation needs to be applied to the calculated value for radiated energy as it will follow the theoretical pattern. If emmissivity is less than 100% (a value of less than 1) then the difference needs to be added to the calculated figure for radiated energy in order to compensate for the fact that the target is radiating less than an otherwise identical ‘black body’ would. Therefore, assuming an emmissivity lower than it actually is would in fact over-estimate the radiated energy, and hence the COP. This would mean that a value of 1 would in fact be the ‘conservative’ assumption, and the figure that should have been used. Or am I missing something?

    Second: “…”energy density”, given by the net energy produced (3268 kWh) divided the “active mass”…” As we have no idea how long the 20g fuel mass could produce energy for, the figure of 163 MWh/kg calculated is actually meaningless. ‘Underestimate’ hardly describes it – the real value could be tens, hundreds or even thousands of times greater.

    • Ged

      You’re absolutely right, Peter. However, in the calculations of the report we have, an emissivity of 1 is indeed used.

      Maybe Aldo is referencing the third party work, which would be much more stringent about that sort of accuracy.

      • ivan_cev

        correct, the 30% less should have been applied as a coefficient of emissivity.

    • Chris

      I noticed that same sentence and it struck me Proia was making a hash but more about the way he says things. As for the relevance on results, it depends on whether he was talking about the use of optical pyrometry to measure the temperature, or about estimating the emissivity for computing thermal power from a known temperature. The latter case would make him correct about the bearing of a value nearer to unity, but the fact is I don’t find it reasonable to assume it would be 1. I don’t get his drift and he doesn’t seem to be an expert in the topic there. Perhaps he just misunderstood the details.

    • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

      The guestimated value of 0.95 for the emissivity will reduce the calculated value of emitted energy. Hence it is a conservative value to use. I would never use an emissivity of 1.0 . If the emissivity is in fact higher than 0.95 it would raise the output energy and hence the COP.

    • Sanjeev

      He could have simply measured the emissivity by doing a control run for an hour. If you pour 1000 W in the resistors and the thermal camera shows 900 W, then the emissivity is 0.9. Its simple, no need of expensive paints, and he could have earned points for being thorough.

      I guess he could not get impressive figures without the paint, so he had to go for it. Anyway the result is awesome even in the worst case, only that its signed by Rossi himself and is therefore not so exciting for us outsiders here.

  • daniel maris

    Well this sort of report seems consistent with a genuine phenomenon. That doesn’t mean of course that the phenomenon is definitely genuine, but it means (personally speaking) I am very satisfied with this commentary – it makes me feel much better about prospects.

    I hope this will be followed up in short order by the independent test results, certification and real time webcam demos…and then full scale marketing. Things should be happening very quickly now. There should be few delays from here on in.

    It will be nice if at some time soon we can give Rossi a full-throated cheer.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    Seems the hot ecat can sustain a higher (controlled) COP (something like 20 in this test?) than the normal home e-cat.

    Did hear some rumours though that at a certain high COP neutrons start to escape which is apparently very dangerous.

    • barty

      Didn’t Rossi say that fast neutrons only escape at a COP higher than 200.
      So he has to throttle the reaction to be safe.

      • Ged

        Exactly the case. What this means per ce is hard to answer, since a continuous self sustained would be a COP of infinity. So… Hm. Perhaps the new rector geometries and materials do not lead to that sort of reaction. We’ve had the safety tests on the low temp E-cat, so we’ll have to wait for some good SGS tests on this hot cat to be sure neutrons aren’t a problem when it’s pushed to its limit.

        • Omega Z

          Ged

          On 22 passi I think the translation was that this coming week Rossi was preparing for a certification meeting as in arranging.(SGS I assume)

          Beware- Google translate. I may have misinterpreted.

      • Peter_Roe

        He did say that. Probably some different nucleonic process begins to take over as COP=200 is approached or surpassed, perhaps something related to the GeNiE reactor, which is claimed to be a cold fusion neutron source activated by microwave stimulation.

        http://www.globalenergycorporation.net/Tech.aspx

        • Ged

          Considering the hot cats no longer seem to have a frequency generator influencing them, that’s a very likely possibility. Great find.

          • Peter_Roe

            No separate subsystem perhaps, but the heater coils are still driven by 50Hz AC, so there will be a weak alternating EM field while the heater is on. (Grasping at straws here – EM stimulation has been a pet theory of mine, since the table-top prototype was first shown!)

            • Ged

              True! That is a very good point, and I agree a slight EM field seems to be an important factor in stimulating LENR. It might be that the weak electrical drive field plus a second stimulation by RF/microwaves (as in the low temp E-cat prototypes) leads to the alternate pathways that generate neutrons. Maybe it’s a… over stimulation?

              • Italo R.

                No, I don’t think so.
                Infact, the reactor can be driven by gas flame instead of 50 Hz electricity

                • Peter_Roe

                  Yes, but we don’t know the configuration for that. Maybe a small electrical input is still required for a coil or antenna?

              • Peter_Roe

                Way above my pay grade I’m afraid (my qualifications are in microbiology!) – but it does seem feasible that some second reaction requiring greater initiation energies might begin to predominate at higher COPs. As the GeNiE system is Pd-D rather than Ni-H, its all going to take some untangling.

              • Peter_Roe

                If Rossi has experimented with a microwave drive in a nickel-hydrogen system, he probably dropped that line of experimentation quite quickly when his neutron detector went berserk – even if it did produce an enormous COP.

                • Robert Mockan

                  If so, the microwave activation will need to be revisited when the grass roots reactors start being built. Reason being electricity conversion to microwaves can be very efficient, so if microwaves couple well to activate or maintain LENR in the nickel hydrogen system, overall efficiency can be held high. They can also be focused to excite specifically conduction and fermi band electrons in the potential wells of the nickel lattice, that are thought essential to LENR operation. Rossi may be using heat from electric resistance heating to do this, but that may not be coupling with high efficiency to cause LENR. As others have noted, the whole issue of using electricity at all in the reactor core, and not just for the controls, remains a puzzle. Once started, the reactor can supply its own operating heat, as demonstrated with this self sustaining mode in the latest report. I still think we are simply seeing a consequence of poor system analysis of the thermal feedback loop, and poor heat exchange engineering, in the reactor core. Maybe have to wait until getting some LENR catalyst to fix this problem, because that is what it is. You can easily make engines for propulsion at COP=20, but you have difficulty even powering the reactor itself at COP=6. Rossi has another think coming if he plans to build and market reactors limited to COP=6.

                  Rossi, stop goofing around and give us guaranteed COP=20!

            • ivan_cev

              probably 60 Hz in Italy

        • Steve B

          the claim of neutron emmission related to COP sounds odd. It would rather be above certain temperatures, or pressures or local concentration of a specific active reagent when the reaction rate would increase or mechanism would change in order for neutron emission to increase. I believe this has nothing to do with COP.

          • Ged

            I think it has to do with “COP” only in so far as when the older reactors performed well enough to pace well above a COP of six, it required some other pathway that eventually lead to neutrons. That’s my hypothesis. You’re right that COP in and of itself means nothing to this, but I think it’s acting as a marker of when the process would kick over. Doesn’t seem to be an issue now, but it’s still interesting.

            • Omega Z

              Ged

              Could be when the process speeds up Example-Million reactions per second to 10 million per second, neutron production isn’t captured fast enough by the Hydrogen or lack of enough hydrogen available. Just a thought.

          • http://www.lenrforum.eu Alain

            from papers the neutrons either came from different reactions (like Ni+D instead of Ni+H, or W+D) or from badly working reaction, or starting up reaction…

            It seems from many papers that excess heat and neutrons are excluding each other.

            neutrons at high COP is not so logical.
            at cold temperature and low power it is more coherent with papers I’ve read.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Meant as a reaction to Peter_Roe:
          “Probably some different nucleonic process begins to take over as COP=200 is approached or surpassed”

          That would be my guess too. It seems logical to me that when a process up until a certain point does not create fast neutrons and after that point it does, some different process is started at that point. It’s like boiling water; at first the water steadily get’s hotter and hotter, but at 100C the water changes phase into gas which behaves different than water in it’s liquid state. Though it is still the same material it’s properties depend on it’s state (ice, liquid or gas) and so the interactions with it change accordingly. Does this make any sense?

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          So the limit for save LENR is around COP 200? That would be astonishing high! Can’t imagine a reactor at that COP is easy to get stable. That seems like a reaction on the brink of running away.

          Btw: Wouldn’t such a high COP be putting out relatively more energy than nuclear fission?

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      I doubt that atoms could “know” what is the COP of the device built around them. I suspect that neutron problems seen at high COP are due to some difference in local conditions (combination of temperature, hydrogen pressure etc) rather than the COP as such. Heat is heat, COP should be only a matter of thermal design.

      • Omega Z

        I’ve stated that when the process accelerates, neutrons may not be captured fast enough or lack of enough hydrogen to capture all the neutrons. Therefore some slip by.

        Based on my knowledge in the area which is little, Hydrogen captures neutrons.

  • Adam Lepczak

    Another great Q&A by Aldo Proia. It is worth noting that it look like Dr. Rossi & Co are willing to share an increasing amount of details in regards to how the ECAT technology operates…
    I wonder if it will be possible to “hack” the end user units for greater COP. I imagine people “jailbreaking” the control software for more SSM.

    • barty

      I think the tinkerer will do that job 😉

      Rossi only has to deliver a safe product, what you do with it at home is at your own risk 😉

      I believe there will be something like chip tuning in cars, to optimize the consumption of fuel and so on…

      But first we need a working product 🙁

    • Pedro

      Probably no real tinkering to the software needed… Just an intelligent timer on the power connector that switches the power of and on once in a while.

    • Omega Z

      Tinkering will send a message & your E-cat will be taken for safety violation. Each Core has it’s own WiFI built in. It’s used for control, but also to alert of tampering. Nickel powder is Toxic.

      This information is seldom mentioned & usually found between the lines. Usually when mentioned, it’s discussed as a data acquisition process & safety control of the E-cats performance evaluation for improvements & certification requirements for future generations.

      • ivan_cev

        Just disconnect your internet before opening the device.

        • Peter_Roe

          Production devices would probably require the user to have a G3 phone contract dedicated to the e-cat, and battery backup in each unit. Tampering without an access code might disable the processor and raise an alarm, to prevent the installation of 3rd party core replacements or any other modification.

      • Peter_Roe

        How convenient that a data connection would also allow ‘metering’ of a device’s output for taxation purposes! The upside would be that home and vehicle applications might be ‘allowed’ if taxation could be used to artificially increase the cost of operation to somewhere near the equivalent cost of fossil fuels (c/w ‘fuel duty’, naturally). All in the name of saving the planet of course.

        • Omega Z

          Just an additional note.

          If I recall, this feature was required specifically for the certificate because of the Nickle powder, But I believe most of hardware was already there for Rossi’s IP protection until the patent is issued. The Certification just guarantees it will always be there.

          • Peter_Roe

            I think I remember reading somewhere that Defkalion also stated that their devices would be permanently connected through a data link.

        • Warthog

          No, actually in the name of building roads and bridges for the cars to run on. That need doesn’t change/go away if LENR-powered cars become reality. The same will be true for any “plug-in” electric car……there will need to be some way for the car user to pay “his fair share” of usage expenses. My objection to any such “continuous monitoring” approach is that it allows position-tracking, so gov’t can tell where you go. Put in a totalizing power meter, and have it read at some time interval……monthly, quarterly, annually…..whatever. Make the readout capability computerized and available at any service station. Hell, if they can do it for lottery ticket/credit cards, they can certainly do it for car usage.

          • Peter_Roe

            I was referring mostly to home heating or power systems, where I think LENR will eventually be treated as any other metered utility, as the model is there and could be adapted (no matter how nonsensical that would be). As far as vehicles go, then agreed.

            Development of such systems to unhackable levels of security may delay the availability of LENR for private use at least as much as engineering and safety issues. Tracking would obviously be a bonus as far as so-inclined governments (US, UK, Russia, etc) are concerned.

          • Omega Z

            Warthog

            Several states & municipalities are already setting up Millage fees & the rest will follow. All your newer vehicles have WiFi working or pre installed.

            You’ll fill up your millage card kind of like a pay pass card & X amount per mile will be subtracted as you travel. The article I read several years ago, Discussing when to auto shutdown your car. While in transit or after you return to your home if the funds run out on the card.

            @ Peter

            Not worried about the Utility tax at this time. I suspect for the foreseeable future will still be on the grid. Probably smaller scale then the Centrally located system as now.

            When the time comes it’s a fee they could easily tack onto 1’s property tax. As a percentage, it would work out close to what it is now. If you own it you pay it. If you rent, it’ll be figured in to your rent.

            As for Millage taxes, I don’t have a problem with that. We need roads. We have to pay for them.

            My only caveat’s are.
            #1 Don’t gouge Me.
            #2 Don’t use it to shuffle money to a different use then it’s meant for. Roads.

            Crap. #2 WILL Happen, therefore #1 WILL Happen. That Sucks….

            • Peter_Roe

              No property tax here, as such – we pay an amount based on estimated property value to local councils, nominally for the ‘services’ they provide – like installing speed cameras and paying for spies to check that you haven’t put any ‘recyclables’ in your ‘general waste’ bin.

              I’m sure that guvmint will have no trouble finding a way to gouge us for LENR power though, in due course. As you say, that’s probably way down the road – the grid providers will want to recover their conversion costs first (plus a few thousand percent profits).