[FINAL UPDATE] Corrected (again) Pordenone Hot Cat Report


I have received from Andrea Rossi another correction to the Hot Cat Report, along with this message:

Dear all:
Last typo left: the ssm has been 218 hours, not 118
Besides: the energy produced has been cut of 30% to subtract all the possible margins of error.
Warm Regards,
Andrea

The corrected report is in full below.

 

LEONARDO CORPORATION 

REPORT ON THE INTERNAL TEST PERFORMED ON THE “HOT CAT”

 

Report date: October 9th 2012

NOTICE : THIS REPORT IS ISSUED BY LEONARDO CORPORATION, NOT BY A THIRD PARTY. TESTS PERFORMED BY AN INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY WILL BE RELEASED UPON COMPLETION OF THE SAME.

IN THE PRESENT REPORT, WE ARE PRESENTING DATA OBTAINED BY US THROUGH A PARALLEL TEST PERFORMED WITH THE SAME INSTRUMENTATION USED BY SAID THIRD PARTY, ON THE SAME REACTOR, THE SO-CALLED “HOT CAT”.

PLEASE CONSIDER THESE FIGURES AS THOSE WE REASONABLY EXPECT TO SEE CONFIRMED IN THE FORTHCOMING INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY TEST.

THE REACTOR WAS MANUFACTURED IN THE USA.

MEASUREMENT INSTRUMENTATION WAS CHOSEN SUBSEQUENTLY TO THE SWEDISH TEST PERFORMED ON SEPT. 6TH.

MEASUREMENTS WERE THEREFORE PERFORMED WITH THE MAXIMUM POSSIBLE PRECISION, AVOIDING THE USE OF AMP CLAMPS AND VOLTMETERS, IN PLACE OF WHICH THE INSTRUMENT DESCRIBED IN ATTACHMENT # 2 (MODULATED BY A VARIAC INSTEAD OF A TRIAC POWER SOURCE) WAS USED.

DATA

Please take note of the data format: a period  “.” is used to indicate the decimals and a comma “,” to indicate the thousands, not vice versa as in many countries; for instance, 2,000.00 means “two thousand point zero hundredths”.

REACTOR DESCRIPTION

The reactor is a cylinder having the following dimensions:

Length:                   33 cm

Diameter:               8.6 cm

(See photos in the Penon Report attached)

Surface:                  891 cm2

The internal cylinder has been eliminated; energy measurements were performed on the external surface only, through the Stephan-Boltzmann equation.

Weight without charge:     4331 g

Weight before test:           4351 g

Weight after test:              4350 g

Charge weight:                 20 g

Test started:                     Sept 25th at 08.00 AM

Test completed:                Oct 9th at 08.00 AM

Total duration of the test: 336 hours

OPERATION

Time from reactor startup to full power: 4 hours

Reactor shutdown time: 4 hours

Net operation time for stabilized reactor: 328 hours

TEMPERATURES

Average room temperature:                                       25 °C

Temperature reached after 4 hours:                           1050 °C

Average temperature for the following 328 hours:      1050 °C

POWER CONSUMPTION

Self-sustaining mode operation, total time:  218 hours

Peak power consumption: about 5 kW

Average power consumption:       about 2.4 kW (two point four kW)

TOTAL ENERGY CONSUMED

kWh 278.4

ENERGY PRODUCED

T(°K)4 = 2.838 * 1012

Wh = 2.838 * 1012 * 5.67 * 10-8 * 8.91 * 102 * 10-4 =  14.337 Wh * h-1           (fourteen point three hundred and thirty-seven kWh per hour)

TOTAL ENERGY IRRADIATED

kWh 3.268

COP

3.268/278.4 = 11.7 (eleven point seven)

POWER DENSITY

163.4 MW * kg-1 (one hundred and sixty-three point four MWh per kg)

(see the Ragone Plot at p. 15 of the Penon Report attached)

INSTRUMENT USED FOR MEASURING

TEMPERATURE ON THE EXTERNAL SURFACE:

Optris PI 160 Camera (see Attachment 1)

 

INSTRUMENT USED FOR MEASURING POWER

CONSUMPTION DURING THE TEST

Tursdale Technical Services, PCE-830 (See Attachment 2)

 

EXTERNAL REACTOR SURFACE COATING

Black paint, proprietary formulation, resistant up to 1200° C, made specifically for Leonardo Corp. by Universokrema, Treviso, Italy.

This test is under scrutiny by an independent third party.

DIRECTOR OF THE TEST:

DR. ANDREA ROSSI

CEO

LEONARDO CORPORATION

 

Below is a presentation of Rossi’s data based on calculations by E-Cat World reader, John A de Beer

Rossi Validation

// ]]>

  • Michel

    Energy consumed : 278kWh (!) it is a very, very high power for a 33cm by 8.6cm cylinder …. high enough to rise anything close to 1000°C.

    An independant third party validation is needed to demonstrate the e-act is not just a kettle ..

    • Michel

      If the input is 278kWh, then the output power cannot be 3.268 but 3,268kWh in order to give the 12 COP. (comma, not point)

      3,268kWh = 3MWh

    • Michel

      (assuming the operating time is 110 hours : 328 hours minus 218 hours self sutsained mode, it leads to 2.5kW power input )

  • Robyn

    I think it’s funny to read some people bemoan the number of errors in the original report, and then also get mad that there is no 3rd party confirmation.

    Rossi pushed this out quickly, but he doesn’t have much to lose from sloppiness. He has a groundbreaking invention, and he knows it. Who cares about a sloppy report if he is ultimately correct and his device changes energy for all time?

    Whereas a 3rd party tester would theoretically only have a reputation. And in the face of cold fusion science being an international pariah, if they published wrong numbers, they are subject to being discredited as badly or worse than Fleischmann and Pons.

    A 3rd party can’t afford to appear sloppy. Rossi can.

  • Fly101

    Except the Leaf is from a real car manufacturer, and Tesla is a niche manufacturer trying to make the big league. For the time being I’d trust Nissan more for after sales service etc. Also, the first sporty Tesla has been proven to be largely oversold in terms of performance, particularly range.

  • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

    Ok now that most people agree the calculations are probably conservative if wrong it’s important to note that this all hinges on a third party we know nothing about and we don’t know when they will be finished.

    So pace yourselves, you may be waiting a long time.

    • Karl

      I wouldn’t see it in that way. It seems that Rossi is moving reasonably fast in his R&D. There are also obviously several other players who will search for attention in the field of CF/LENR that he surely is aware of. Rossi said A with this preliminary report. My guess is that we do not have to wait to long to have B served through a report by a third party.

    • Redford

      I already know what will happen when 3rd party reports will be published. Skeptics will ask for a 3rd party report. I know that because there’s already a 3rd party report, with specific name of the 3rd parties explicitly written in it and putting their reputation on the table, that has been released a month ago from Zürich meeting, and skeptics keep on asking for one like this one doesn’t exist. I don’t even see them arguing against what’s inside or the persons of the 3rd parties – they just skip the fact that out of 3 authors, 2 are third parties. So I really don’t see why that would change. Those same people were entirely dismissing the fact that Levi, already a 3rd party, had been measuring the eCat all by himself more than a year ago for 17 hours. “How do you explain his results if Rossi’s a scam artis” is a question that was never answered, no more than “what do you think of the 3rd parties Zürich report ?”.

  • Joseph Fine

    It’s not Power Density. It’s Energy Density. And, if you run it for six months, the Energy Density will be proportionately larger. A very impressive 20 grams.

    joseph

    • Omega Z

      Joseph Fine

      And 18 grams recycled.

      As to a Rossi statement, The E-cat doesn’t stop after 6 months due to Nickle depletion.

      It stops due to the secret catalyst depletion.
      But then I assume you probably already know that.

      • Peter_Roe

        Maybe it’s just hydrogen depletion. There will obviously be a limit on how much metal hydride H2 source can be included, and hydrogen is notoriously difficult to contain, so continuous low-level losses apart from any consumption are inevitable.

      • Thomas

        I would be laughing if the costs to manufacture and replace the “secret catalyst” would be higher than the amount of energy produced :)

        • Peter_Roe

          Rossi has suggested various figures for cost of replacement cartridges for a proposed home unit, up to about $100. For most people in Northern latitudes, who spend anything up to a couple of thousand dollars on winter heating, it would be a major saving, even with present electricity prices (unless the reduction is swallowed up by taxes).

      • KGB

        What did happen with those 2 grams? Converted to energy? I doubt it.. e=mc2 = 2g = 24.97GWh (Giga Watt Hours), according to the experiment description, this is a closed system. Mass should have stayed virtually the same for 3MWh (0.00001202 grams)

        Still too sloppy for science.

  • vbasic

    For all the hand wringing over the COP and ways to correctly calculate, isn’t there a simpler way to judge the machine. How about the way a business would do it? Find a heater that industries use to heat stuff to 1000 C. Hook it to your standard electric meter the type the meter man reads. Hook the hot cat doing the same work to a similar meter. After a few months, read the meter. The hot cat bill should be 6 times cheaper. Whether it’s LENR or the worlds most efficient electric heater, a buyer wouldn’t care, if it lowers my electric bills that much.

  • Ged

    I think it is important to point out that Rossi didn’t have to release this report to Frank, and by extension us. Even if he had some transpositions and punctuation fluctuations, it was a service not an obligation to us.

    It’s awesome we were given this info, and so far all the reports from the conference have been good ones. Looking forward to the videos!

    • vbasic

      Correct. I can’t think of any other product where we get to see almost all the development phases. Wouldn’t it be something to be able to have similar detailed looks at favorite consumer products such as the ipad years before they were sold?

      • Omega Z

        vbasic

        Most people have a disconnect with product development.
        What many think should be done in a few days can take months.
        I can see it taking a couple months for a group to just determine the Criteria for testing the E-cat. So many variables to allow for & minor details being critical to a valid outcome.

        As you mentioned Ipads were in the works for years before they ever came to market. Even new versions with incremental changes can take a couple years. The gains Rossi has made in the last 8 months is considered light speed in development.

  • http://www.debeer.com John de Beer

    I have run the calculations independently and can confirm what he says, but he has not corrected all the typos and some of his formulae are stated in a strange way, but not incorrectly. I can provide a PDF of my calculations – how do I upload?

    • Ged

      You can use Google documents to upload yours, that’s what I did for my Excel files graphing the data from the Zurich report.

    • Peter_Roe

      Thanks for taking the time to do that, John.

      It would seem that the ‘real’ COP, including convection losses and unrecorded radiation from the cylinder ends, and ignoring the arbitrary 30% reduction, might be as high as 20. If not, a little engineering could probably take it to that level or above quite easily.

  • edog
  • Morgan

    I hate to say this but if he makes such simple mistakes whos to say the entire thing is not a huge mistake and there is no net energy at all?

    • Peter_Roe

      Yes, I’m sure you really hated to say that.

      If there are any remaining errors or omissions, they are likely to be small relative to the measured amount of anomalous heat. In any case a 3rd party report is due soon.

      • Patrik

        Well, Rossi promised the world a 3rd party report before. He promised we would have one by november 2011 for instance.

        I wonder what soon means this time.

    • Luca Salvarani

      To Morgan

      I think the opposite: in a real scam all things are apparently perfect, no errors, mistakes or misunderstandings at all!

    • Ged

      The absolute numbers don’t seem to have changed, there were just transpositions in the editing. That isn’t that big a deal, even if it is annoying. The important thing is the errors have been corrected.

    • Redford

      As always : 3rd party. There has been some already. The more there will be, the more irrelevant the errors made by Rossi will be, because it’s less and less Rossi says.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    All the skeptics should focus their ire on the Patent offices. They are refusing LENR patent applications when it has been proven in labs all over the world! ISSUE ROSSI A PATENT. We will then see his theory behind the E-Cat and why his invention is so much more productive than other LENR devises. IF the E-Cat works, everyone in Leonardo Corporation will become a billionaire. If it does not work, they will get less than zero, and if there is fraud, as many of you are suggesting, they will be prosecuted. Personally I think Rossi should not be publishing any information until after Beta testing proves or disproves his invention.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Why does it take over two hours to moderate my posts, while other comments are posted immediately?

      • Peter_Roe

        Don’t complain – I have a couple of posts on this page that are still in moderation after 24 hours!

    • Fly101

      IMHO Rossi will never get a patent not because of disbelief of LENR, but just because he’s not submitted a valid request.
      To get a patent one must submit a description of the invention such as to allow anyone who has reasonable knowledge of the trade to replicate it. He did not describe in his application the process or even the nature of the catalyst, so nobody can replicate the device.
      Whoever is under the delusion of this patent being awarded (Rossi included) should just forget about it. You either patent or keep secret know-how, you cannot have both.
      To be sure I checked my conclusions with a friend working for more than 20 years at the patent office and he confirmed my interpretation of the rules.
      Therefore, if he wants to avoid ending like Meucci, I urge Rossi to get a series of agreements with big companies (one of the top three of each possible application sector) that can guarantee vigorous product development and vigorous legal protection of a properly submitted patent, both of which Rossi cannot afford on his own.
      He should ask for a relatively small royalty (relatively to the value of the invention, in absolute terms it should not be THAT small), ask for an end of the license if products are not put on the market within say two to four years, and a royalty of a few % on each sold item.
      This way he would make sure he makes a lot of money while allowing fast development of the applications without risking losing everything to the same companies once they decide to enter that market after he’s demonstrated it convincingly while having no patent protection (which for the reasons above is what will happen if he goes on like this).

      • Richard

        The Tesla-J.P. Morgan-Wardenclyffe Tower scenario has been looming for a while now.

        Would a patent guarantee a bright future for his invention?
        I think this kind of online product development, for the world to see and discuss, just might.

  • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

    How many errors can one person make in one report? Rossi needs help. At a minimum he needs to have a competent engineer check his work especially before he publishes anything.

    • barty

      The tests were finished at 9th october, the conference was yesterday, 12th of october, so i think it was just a fast and unchecked written document.

      • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

        Then he shouldn’t have posted it.

    • Ged

      The errors weren’t in the absolute numbers per ce, it seems to mostly just be editing problems. As you and others point out, a good editor would help, but considering how the conference was just three days after the tests finished, it’s not surprising things weren’t fully polished, even if it would have been best if they were.

  • vbasic

    It’s interesting that the “Time from reactor startup to full power: 4 hours”
    And George Miley experiments show the same thing. It looks like good replicability.
    http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/2012/09/21/george-miley-working-3kw-30kw-lenr-designs/
    Thankfully, Rossi solved the problem of runaway and sintering.
    Does anyone know the time the Celani experiment takes?

  • georgehants

    There is an effort from some scientists to put right the terrible faults in science.

    Human error in psychology research: a rough guide
    Science writer Ed Yong has just posted the audio of a fantastic talk on problems in psychology research and how to fix them.
    The talk was delivered at Bristol University but is remarkably direct and he pulls no punches in pointing out psychology’s scientific flaws.
    Interestingly, Yong makes the point that this is not a problem of psychology specifically, because many of the problems – like publication bias and selective reporting – appear across the scientific board, but that psychology is a hot topic because the field is trying to do something about it.
    Yong has been doing some fantastic work not only highlighting these difficulties but getting a public debate going about solutions to these problems of research culture.
    His talk is an excellent round-up of his own work and the state of play in the fight to change science culture.
    http://mindhacks.com/2012/10/13/human-error-in-psychology-research-a-rough-guide/

  • daniel maris

    I am staying out of the maths debate…LOL But I was interested to see Matt Lewan’s name. Is he still basically onside? Does he still think Rossi a credible figure?

    • Karl

      I should guess Mats Lewan is still on the story of the E-Cat, if there is something to report. Since October last year there haven’t been that much officially shown by Rossi. It may change from now on.

      What Rossi is now indicating, to be verified by third a party soon, is certainly extremely interesting. A COP of 12-17 at 1000 degree Celsius in a 33 cm long and 8.6 cm diameter tube. Two week of operation generate about 5000 kWh of heat while it consumes 1 g of Nickel.

      If this is about right, using the heat only, I would consume about 3 gram of Nickel to heat my house in northern Europe including my supply hot water for dish and showers. Using generated electricity from the device would consume a factor 3 x 3 g (with 33% efficiency). Double that consumption for the electricity and a normal household require for light and computers etc. would totally consume about 20 g of nickel per year for its energy demand.

  • trycantidary

    Stephan boltzman law , for total energy irradiated in excess of
    room temperature assuming constant temperature and area over time:

    Excess Energy emitted (joules) = Time (in hours) * sec / hour
    * Area (meters^2) * emissivity
    * constant (5.670400 * 10^-8 (J / (s * m^2 * K^4))
    * ((Temperature (Kelvin))^4 – (room Temperature (Kelvin))^4)

    checking surface area of cylinder:
    surface area = length * circumfrence = length * pi * d
    = pi * 33 cm * 8.6 cm = 891 cm^2

    converting surface area cm^2 to meter^2:
    1 cm = 10^-2 * m
    1 cm^2 = 10^-4 m^2

    So surface area of cylinder in m^2:
    891 cm^2 = 891 * 10^-4 m^2

    Temperature (Kelvin) = Temperature (Celsius) + 273.15

    T = hot cat temp in kelvin = 1050 + 273 = 1328
    RT = room temp in kelvin = 25 + 273 = 298
    T^4 – RT^4 = 1328^4 – 298^4 = 3110228525056 – 7886150416
    = 3102342374640 = 3.1023 * 10^12 (K^4)

    seconds / hour = 60 seconds / min * 60 min / hour = 3600

    hours of test = 328

    emissivity = .95 (estimated)

    Plugging in:

    Energy produced (Joules) =
    328 (hours) * 3600 (s/hr) * 891 * 10^-4 m^2
    * .95 * 5.670400 * 10^-8 (J / (s m^2 K^4))
    * 3.1023 * 10^12
    = 17582277998
    = 17.6 * 10^9 Joules

    1 Watt = 1 Joule / second
    1 KiloWatt Hour = 1000 Watt * 1 Hour
    = 1000 Joule / second * 3600 second / hour second * 1 Hr
    = 3.6 * 10^6 Joule
    so
    1 Joule = 1 / 3.6 * 10^-6 KWHr

    17.6 * 10^9 Joules = 17.6 / 3.6 * 10^3 KWHr
    = 4.8 ^ 10^3 KWHr

    This is the total excess energy emitted.

    Comparing to the total energy input (278.4 KWHr) we get a COP:
    COP = energy out / energy in =
    = 4.8 * 10^3 / 278.4
    = 17

    • Leonard Weinstein

      Where is the conduction and convection heat transfer to air here. If only radiation is considered, the COP would be low, since heat transfer to the air adds energy loss to just radiation.

      • Ged

        Exactly. Blackbody is being used -only- to give the most conservative estimate possible. Heat loss to convection/conduction is not considered in these experiments, so far (in Zurich they did attempt a slight convection calculation).

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      AR said 30% was deducted to be on the conservative side, meaning a reported cop of 17-5.1=11.9
      Near enough to the reported 11.7.
      Am I interpreting this right?

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        I think you are right. Convection loss is not so easy to estimate, although at high temperatures radiation tends to dominate.

        Radiation (and convection) by the endcaps were also ignored in the analysis. Endcaps form 11.5% of the total surface area. If the endcaps were not painted black then radiation through them was less than 11.5%, though.

        Someone good at fluid dynamics would be able to estimate the convection power loss.

  • Karl

    I would be happy if we collectively could investigate the comment stated by Brian Ahern today. If the following is originated from the real Brian Ahern (and not a TROLL) it has to be seriously checked. One also needs to understand that Ahern is a competitor as well.

    “Rossi’s own cLCULtions are off by four orders of magnitude ! The Stephan-Boltzmann calculation involve multiplying by the surface are in meters squared It should be 0.0891m2, not 891 cm.
    Any person accustomed to working at 1,000C knows the radiated power is far below the values stated. Shame on the E-Cat groupies for falling for this obvious error. Rossi has demonstrated less than unity, not over unity”

    • Torbjörn

      http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg71903.html

      Mats Lewan wrote yesterday:

      “It might be worth noting that there are still a couple of errors in
      the updated Hot Cat report. I have pointed these out to Rossi.

      The emitted power calculated with Stefan Boltzmann’s formula is too
      low – Rossi used (T(K) – T0(C))^4 when it should be T(K)^4 – T0(K)^4,
      as far as I know.

      This gives an output power of 17.6 kW instead of 14.3 kW.

      I cannot understand how the energy consumed is calculated from the
      average power consumption. 278/2.4 gives 118 hours…

      The total output energy is calculated on 228 hours and not 328 hours
      as indicated (and there’s a decimal point where you should expect a
      comma).

      Kind Regards
      Mats Lewan

      Mats Lewan, redaktör Next Magasin – reporter Ny Teknik.
      tel. 08-796 64 10, mobil 070-590 72 52, twitter: matslew”

      328 – 218 = 110 hours in non self sustaining mode.
      110 * 2,4 = 264 kWh in non self sustaining mode.

    • Anti troll

      So many people here are total null at text or math comprehension:
      8.91 * 102 * 10-4 is ok in the calculus. its exactly 891cm2 in m2

      for easy check go here and type in the initial data in the report:

      http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/stefan.html

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      “Ahern’s” text sounds just trolling. Mats Lewan’s question Rossi addressed today. According to the corrected report the COP is 12 if measured very conservatively, in reality it could be 20-25.

      • http://www.american-reporter.com Joe Shea

        It’s also wrong to discount the power output by 30 percent, as the only scientifically acceptable data is real data, not data that is discounted for “political” reasons – i.e., to make it more palatable to naysayers. It’s incredible that the original report should have to be corrected twice when there was so little information in it in the first place! That is not to say that the information is inadequate but just that in sheer volume there was not a whole lot, however meaningful it may have been or how voluminous the data it was extrapolated from.

    • robiD

      You can tell to Brian Ahern that in the calculations, the surface is in meters squared as you can see
      8.91 * 10^2 * 10^-4 = 0.0891 meters squared

      so, at least here, Rossi is right.
      Brian Ahern, instead, should explain something about his experiments. It seemed that he had found how to produce unlimited and repeatable energy, but actually we now know that he made a lot of experiments and found only one of them with excess energy, but he could not repeat it because of lack of funds. He should think twice before spread such statements (like this one about meters squared).

      • Karl

        Ok very good. It seems to be investigated that Rossi was correct and whoever was behind the comment under the name Brian Ahern was wrong. It is thus likely someone trolling. Perhaps Frank has the possibility to see where this comment comes from?

  • HeS

    I found old (2009) DIA report on “cold-fusion”.

    lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BarnhartBtechnology.pdf

    I believe, that LENR is real. Maybe Rossi device is real too?

  • georgehants

    To prove Rossi has a device to produce the excess energy he claims one simply assumes I am asked to invest.
    I would require, one plumber with a couple of garden thermometers, one electrician with a volt meter etc.
    One full day or longer if I wish, one generator producing 240 volts for input that I would bring with me.
    One sheet of 1/16th steel of sufficient size to place his device on, isolating it from any other surface.
    A million words have been written on pointless technicalities, he is not claiming some microscopic effect that needs highly sophisticated investigation but an overwhelming gain that can be checked by a first year student.
    Time to end the uncertainty and move on.

    • Warthog

      You’re sounding more and more like “maryyugo”. Rossi doesn’t care what you think, and, having heard the same sentiments dozens of times, most people here don’t care either. They’re content to wait until the situation is resolved. I suggest the same to you.

      • georgehants

        Warthog, thank you, do you agree with the testing method above.
        What would you think is the reason for many reports none of which confirm a working E-Cat.
        Just interested, if rather than just childish abuse you can actually verbalise a reasoned reply.

  • orsobubu

    Andrea Rossi’ invention, if confirmed, opens fantastic possibilities, but it would be a big mistake to believe that this is a revolution that would bring peace scenarios for mankind. The worst wars occurred, for example, after the application of electricity discovery. The reason of economic crises and wars are overproduction and falling profit rate, causing unemployment, inflation or deflation, and debt. An innovative technology that wipes out an industry with higher capital outlay – like fossil’ industry – does increase the use value produced for the good of humanity, but decreases the exchange value (profits and money) because it decreases the surplus value extracted from the declining number of workers exploited by the capitalist class. Look at the highly robotized automotive industry for a confirm. Capitalistic production system needs more efficient energy sources not for environment, peace or scientific progress purposes, but as a constraint due to market competition; and competition brings on monopolies, state capitalism and fall of the profit rate. These new technologies will only partially increase the industries that today can not develop due to energy shortages, because today there is no such a shortage and because the current crisis is due to overproduction instead of underconsumption. Accordingly, there will be a massive leap forward in the next deepest economic crises and imperialist powers will be more than happy to use them to take a military advantage. The war menace with Iran is not due to energy shortages, but to take an edge in confrontation with China, India and Russia.

    • Luca Salvarani

      You have vevy very strange (not to say really “insane”) economic theories like the idiots Krughman and Stiglitz… E-cat will get enormous benefits… Of course there will be other crises but the main cause was, is and always will be the government and the dilution of the fiat-money and the systematic violations of the free market by the FED, the governement (which is another face of the same medal together with the goverment), and too big to fail financial insitutions… People like Rossi are real, old-style entrepeneurs and we disperately need them but our collapsing socialist/crony economic systems, expecially here in Europe, don’t understand this! My main fear is that even the US are turning into Europe under Obama, and the demages will be enormous expecially for the very layman people…

      • Timar

        Better go and earn a nobel price yourself before calling someone like Stiglitz an idiot. It’s exactly the kind of religious Neoliberalism you are propagating that is the root cause of the current economic crisis – which emanated from the US btw., not from Europe.

      • Peter_Roe

        I agree with both of you. I’m not sure there are any profound contradictions in what you are both saying. Economics is by definition artificial, and is more subject to politics and manipulation for gain, than to ‘real world’ inputs.

        • orsobubu

          He says we have to return to nineteenth century economics. It is not possibile. Quickly, there will not be enough place to expand capitalism in the world, with even more and more wage workers to exploit, the only way surplus value and profits are made. Capitalists will need to destroy in order to reconstruct, and with cold fusion they will destroy more efficiently. See what cold fusion advocates are imaging: every person will became an autonomous energy producer!!!! But this is a disaster for capitalism: less workers to exploit, much less profits!

      • orsobubu

        Fiat money and debt are the solutions governments need to adopt because otherwise the recipes from your idols, Von Hayek, Menger, Von Mises (whose theories are mathematically contradictory) would lead quickly to frightful popular revolts. We are no longer in the nineteenth century, when millions of impoverished workers could be sent to live under the bridges as increasingly frequent crisis approached. So it is the opposite of what you say, Keynesian policies don’t lead to crisis in first place, but is the crisis that leads to Keynesian policies. Regarding keynes, Stiglitz, Krugman, their theories are equally fallacious and, as you say, will also cause disasters of historical proportions. I am surprised, however, you don’t know Marx represents the overcoming of all these contradictions. Also very strange you do not know that in imperialist age (monopoly, export of capital, financialization, struggle for world market conquest, military expansion of geopolitical influence sphere) the values ​​of nineteenth-century revolutionary capitalism are dead and buried. To the contrary, counter-revolutionary capitalism (aiming to keep in power a parasitic class that no longer produces anything) will bring quickly an era of new wars, and you need to gear up with new ideas to fight for your class, in the same way bourgeoise class is now fighting and winning against proletariat.

    • Antonio Ruggeri Dr Ing

      Great Device the E-Cat

      As the drums wait to be beaten at the step of Mars
      The trumpets will excite of the weaker the hearts
      Proceed we must and bravely face this new World
      Destiny for us still comes with toil and tears of old

      Good Providence supplied us this Great Device
      Let’s fight with it against ignorance and prejudice
      May it spur our lives and may Civilization prevail
      May the fruits of our work lead to the Holy Grail!

      • Peter_Roe

        Excellent!

        I am very impressed that you can write such good poetry in a language that is presumably not your own.

        Edit: Please don’t take that as patronisation – I mean it.

  • jedslater

    We are living in a transition period! The outfall can be good or turn into something terrible. LENR works there is no point in arguing about that, the problem is when do we see a product that we can buy and install. The fight is on and have been so for many years just behind the scenes. Now “they” know that it is impossible to hide alternative energy production away because so many is having breakthroughs. It is only a matter of time before we seen it in stores. Houses are already being built as zero energy units, so there is no point in fighting because they lost the battle. As long as oil is the most important energy source for transport that is were “they” will try to suppress new technologies. The conflict between Iran and US/Israel will truly be meaningless if LENR would demonstrate true replaceability regarding fossil fuel in this world.

    • Omega Z

      If LENR comes to market and Any Country continues developing Nuclear, There intent would no longer be a question. We would know without any doubt.

      • Peter_Roe

        In the UK we have a huge and leaking pile of nuclear waste stored largely at Sellafield in Cumbria. The UK government has no ideas about how to dispose of this legacy of cold war stupidity other than to bury it. Unfortunately no-one wants the stuff in their backyard and there are many fights to prevent such dumping, depite the enormous bribes on offer.

        I think EDF has managed to convince Camoron that the new EPR reactors they are trying to flog are a part of the answer, in that they can be easily modified to ‘burn’ plutonium, one of the main constituents of the waste piles. There are all sorts of reasons why this is folly of the first order, and will not make any significant difference in any case, but politicians seem to be easy targets for this kind of lobbying.

        The result in the UK is ministerial departments lying to parliament in order to make a false case for the ‘need’ for new nuclear build, and underhand subsidies disguised as ‘green initiatives’ but in fact designed to pave the way for all electricity users to subsidize the nuclear industry, contrary to political promises and EC law.

        http://www.ukace.org/publications/ACE%20Campaigns%20%282012-01%29%20-%20Corruption%20of%20Governance%20-%20Jan%202012

  • andreiko

    De omzetting van massa in energie is relevant Dr Rossi of derden kunnen dit aantonen zonder het geheim van de e-cat prijs te geven!

    Graag een reactie , (Dutch)

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Ha Andreiko,

      Wanneer je geen Engels kunt of wilt schrijven (blijkbaar kun je het wel lezen), raad ik je aan om op nederlandse sites te posten. Hier kan bijna niemand je berichten lezen en denk ik dat dergelijke postings niets bijdragen en eerder als storend worden ervaren. Op een internationaal forum is het etikette dat je in de internationale taal, nl Engels post.

      • stuey81

        please post in english if possible, most of us speak english

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          My reply was to Andreiko to please post in English or not at all. Hope he finally gets the message as he is always posting in Dutch.

          • stuey81

            thank you mate

  • ivan_cev

    After this enormous circus, the only think Mr Rossi can do is show us a real test of the device, (black box is ok)

    • Peter_Roe

      There has been a rather farcical element to recent communications, but that doesn’t detract (much) from Rossi’s achievement, which will hopefully be corroborated by an independent third party report.

      This is work in progress and I don’t think that Rossi is under any obligation to put on another demo for the benefit of people who are unlikely to be in the market for a 1MW CF boiler.

    • Ged

      Editing can bite anyone in the arse. I’ve seen so many badly edited news stories (not here, but elsewhere such as CNN even) that the meaning was garbled; and those are paid writers with paid editors watching over their shoulders. Rossi had to rush from this test in the US to a conference in Italy three days. I think we can cut him some slack in this case.

      • Omega Z

        Ged

        Worse, Actually 2 days. 9th was testing & 12th was conference.

        Beside traveling time he did a roughing out in data that probably should have been analyzed over weeks.

    • Redford

      Define “show us”. Because if it’s “show to some 3rd party and let them do their measurements so that they can present it under their name”, well, it’s done.

  • Tony76

    From previous thread:

    “Robert Mockan on October 13, 2012 at 6:18 am
    More important, do you have any idea what the critics and skeptics are going to do with this latest report? Rossi does not need enemies when his worst foe is himself.”

    I believe the test methodology is adequate. Nothing will change the opinion of patho-skeptics until media high priests tell them its OK.

    The methodology demonstrates unequivocally a non-chemical, and thus new energy source.

    All we need now is independent and authoritative verification of the data.

    That Rossi does not produce his reports in Microsoft Powerpoint is a boon. He is a traditional pen and paper guy. Good for him.

    • Steve B

      RE “Nothing will change the opinion of patho-skeptics until media high priests tell them its OK.”
      wrong. Skeptics will change their mind if there is solid evidence on the table confirmed by qualified independent experts. We are still waiting for this. A report taken on Rossi’s premises supervised by him will never be accepted as evidence by skeptics.

      • Peter_Roe

        “Skeptics will change their mind if there is solid evidence….”

        True (rational) skeptics might, but Tony76 refers to patho(logical) skeptics. These are people who either have deep personal problems that prevent them processing information without irrational bias, or some strong investment in the old order. Both categories are more likely go down fighting than to accept a new paradigm.

      • Tony76

        “confirmed by qualified independent experts.”
        Synonymous with media high priests.

  • MikeW

    Anyone any good at sums: Is this a load of rubbish or did someone just break the ‘Laws of Physics’?

    • Karl

      What laws? My thought is that we only have current theories to deal with and these may not be complete.

    • dandelion

      In physics there are only models. Some of these models work as laws in particular cases or/and scales.

      • Ged

        I hope more people realize that.

  • georgehants

    The delay in knowing that Rossi definitely has a technology of the capabilities that he and Defkalion claim, is now causing serious problems.
    If governments had such conformation then the energy planning they have under way would have to be publicly reviewed and changed,under the knowing scrutiny of the population.
    The immediate release is not so important as the unambiguous knowledge that it is practical and shortly available.
    Rossi is now undoubtedly, unreasonably, (if genuine) effecting the welfare and safety of the World.
    There are many possible reasons for commercial and academic silence and confusion, but the time has passed when fair justification can be allotted to these considerations.
    No one needs to know the secrets, but the definitive proof that the breakthrough is genuine and practical is now essential.
    Mr. Rossi time to stop peeing around and show your hand.

    • Tony76

      ..”governments… energy planning ..would have to be publicly reviewed and changed”

      The same goes for energy plundering and warmongering in the Middle East. Hot ecat stops the “nuclear (fission) energy” conflict in its tracks. Does Rossi want an avoidable regional war (or worse) on his conscience?

      • Peter_Roe

        It’s not Rossi’s fault that America is controlled by warmongering psychopaths. But it would be good if word did finally begin to spread that there is a viable alternative to gas, oil and nuclear fission.

        If Rossi comes through with data that can’t be picked apart by the skeptics, and the mainstream press fails to report this fairly, then it is they who must accept a good portion of the blame for further energy wars. That said, the US wants to take down Iran as a middle eastern power for strategic reasons, and other excuses will be found for war, whether or not Iran halts nuclear research.

      • mcloki

        Nuclear weapons are just an excuse. Even if Rossi and his hot cat took away that excuse the US would just find some other “human rights” violation to press for military action.

    • Voodoo

      George, for one you are right.

      Few months back I calculated global economic loss as cca 9 billion USD per day from this asocial behavior – not talk to world that there is new technology with such parameters.

      Last 2 months of this greedy plays is sum loss cca 550 billion USD.
      It is equivalent of some 3000 very advanced healthcare hospitals at regional level with full equipment.

      These inventors/businessmen hope that they will earn of some few million more if they delay this publishing.

      Extreme asocial behavior. I noticed them. Zero effect.

      Half of these losses is from wrong source (capital) allocation into today obsolete technologies, which will bankrupt soon.

      Second half of losses is from absurd prices and margins artificially bubbled oil prices. Common folks don’t know that operational cost for one barrel of oil at Rumaillah field is some 2 USD/barrel. Other fields have 6-17 USD per barrel and extreme Canadian oilsands is somewhere between 30-40 USD per barrel.
      Banksters, hedge funds and others yet ride Brent oil for 115 USD/barrel.
      I love this insanity. These guys will sooner or later jumping through windows (after more publishing delays from inventors and more hundreds billions of losses).

      • georgehants

        Voodoo, I am always right, until shown wrong, just because my comment today suits your view does not alone make it right.
        So many think that simply dismissing what I say proves me wrong.
        They live in a weird dream World.
        I ask you, Should open-minded, unbiased, processional research be instigated immediately on UFO’s, based on the clear overwhelming Evidence of an anomaly.
        Should science embrace the Placebo Effect based on the clear overwhelming Evidence for an anomaly that has been known for probably millions of years.
        One cannot pick and choose, one must just unwaveringly look for the TRUTH.
        Rossi has had all the time necessary now to gain the advantage over incompetent main-line science and others and any further delay in the production of clear PROOF of his claims is an affront to the Human Race.

      • Peter_Roe

        Voodoo – Excellent observations on what corruption and stupidity costs the world. Most of the inflated cost of oil is added by traders and speculators, for which read banks and other finance houses, who of course also enrich themselves obscenely in many other ways, at the cost of ordinary people.

        You can be sure though that corruption will continue unabated after CF finds its way into widespread use, and in general it will be exactly the same people involved. Until society can find a way to rid itself of financial parasitism, or at least reduce the level of infection, very little is likely to change.

      • Omega Z

        Voodoo

        Over 90% of the Worlds oil reserves are owned and controlled by Governments. They control the quantity, there for price, who, when, where, & how much is developed. The Higher the price of Oil, the More the Governments make.

        There’s also many grades of oil, each having it’s own characteristics in product percentages & cost to process. Premium blends of Oil set the bench price & what the lower blends cost accordingly.

        Oil from the Deep wells off the coast of Brazil are estimated at $60 per barrel just to get it to the surface. Oil in Alaska is so thick it has to be heated in order to pump it.

        If it makes you happy, well demand the Oil companies sell you that $4 a gallon gas profit free. It still costs you about $3.93 a Gallon. Now who you going to blame.

        You might also note that 50% of profits pay into pension plans. Not the Rich, so the next update on the value of that 401K plan you’ve been paying into for years will show a net balance of Zero. Most things in this world are not so simplistic as many seem to think.

        • Omega Z

          Just to add, you mentioned Brent North Sea crude. Some time back GB increased the Extraction fee to $80 a barrel. As many wells became net loss after costs, they were shut down, thus reducing total output.

          In Venezuela, they Nationalized their Oil. All profits goto the State being dibbled out mostly to Cronies. No profits are spent on production which has fallen 30%.
          Kind of like feeding your people with what should be next years seed corn. Will feed more people today, let them all starve tomorrow. Government Planning at it’s best.

  • Gérard2012

    The energy revolution is on

    Here are some links which shows that the highest political world are acting to promote new energy sources. It remains only to prove their system demonstrate the relevance of LENR.

    They are open as never has new ideas and new energy concepts. They open doors of possibilities for cold fusion. I have no doubt a victory for Barack Obama in the next presidential election, it will be on speed.

    The only argument that counts is the fait accompli industrial or experimental recognized and endorsed by manufacturers licensed. Those who cling to the old dogmas and theories of physics, thinking they are immutable, they are no longer exceeded the credibilities.

    Track development for the hot cat could be exploited. I have a hunch that as today, tomorrow the car will be hybrid energy, a mixed strategy with a battery powered by a generator to recharge LENR this continuous herself turning an electric motor, here another possible application with the Hot Cat.

    I think today’s builders and manufacturers can look at the practical applications of hot cat

    I think Andrea Rossi and understood he would have to say more, finally unveiled his research even if all of its patents have not yet been accepted. All so it is pointing to this technology if by chance a group trying to overtake on patents, it would need him and his team, his name is already associated with LENR for posterity.

    http://www.france-mobilite-electrique.org/obama-le-president-electrique,3097.html

    http://www.vehiculespropres.net/actualites/rss/obama-durcit-la-reglementation-de-consommation-de-carburant-des-vehicules

    The moment of truth is imminent,

    in french

    La révolution énergétique est en marche

    Voici quelques liens qui prouve que les politiques aux plus haut niveau mondial passent aux actes pour promouvoir de nouvelles sources d’énergies. Il ne reste plus qu’a prouver, leur démontrer la pertinence des système LENR.

    Ils sont ouvert comme jamais a de nouvelles idées et de nouveaux concepts énergétique. Ils ouvrent les portes des possibles pour la fusion froide. Je ne doute d’une victoire de Barack Obama a la prochaine élection présidentielle, soyez sur qu’il va accélérer.

    Le seul argument qui compte est le fait accompli industriel ou l’expérimentation reconnu et approuvé par des industriels patentés. Ceux qui s’accroche aux anciens dogmes et théories de la physique, pensant qu’ils sont immuable, sont dépassés ils n’ont plus la crédibilités.

    Une piste de développement pour le hot cat pourrait être exploité. J’ai une intuition que comme aujourd’hui, demain la voiture sera hybride énergétiquement, la stratégie d’un mixte avec une batterie alimenté par un générateur LENR pour recharger celle-ci en continu, elle-même faisant tourner un moteur électrique, voici une autre application possible avec le Hot cat.

    Je pense que aujourd’hui des constructeurs et des industriels peuvent se pencher sur les applications concrètes du hot cat

    Je crois que Andréa Rossi a compris et qu’il allait devoir en dire plus, dévoilé enfin ses recherches même si tous ses brevets ne sont pas encore acceptés. De toutes façon il est en pointe sur cette technologie si d’aventure un groupe essayait de le doubler sur les brevets, il aurait besoin de lui et de son équipe, son nom est déjà associé au LENR pour la postérité.

    http://www.france-mobilite-electrique.org/obama-le-president-electrique,3097.html

    http://www.vehiculespropres.net/actualites/rss/obama-durcit-la-reglementation-de-consommation-de-carburant-des-vehicules

    Le moment de vérité est imminent,

    • Peter_Roe

      Unfortunately there is usually something of a gap between what politicians such as Obama say, and what they do. I suspect that cold fusion may fall into this gap, as it will be too disruptive unless tightly controlled. The US is probably the last country where we can expect to see CF introduced (the UK and France will fight it out for second-to-last place).

      • mcloki

        Ceding this market to any other country would not be in the interests of any government. Letting China or Japan or Russia, Saudi Arabia become the market leaders in CF is not at all desired. The sheer ego of the US wouldn’t allow that to happen. Governments compete against other governments. What stops Saudi Arabia from buying Rossi out for a few hundred million.

      • Gérard2012

        I think it is from you that the CF will happen first. But electric cars can be very good application for the hot cat. The hot cat is very small and therefore easily be in an electric car
        Renault in France we have just released an electric car with Nissan and French brand nisssan are in the same business … A lot of money has been invested in these new cars!

        In french
        Je pense que c’est chez vous que la FC va arriver en premier. Mais les voitures électriques peuvent être une application très bonne pour le hot cat. Le hot cat est très petit et donc être mis facilement dans une voiture électrique
        en France nous avons Renault qui vient de sortir une voiture électrique avec Nissan, nisssan et la marque française sont dans la même entreprise… Beaucoup d’argent a été investi pour ces nouvelles voitures!

        • Peter_Roe

          I was thinking more of EDF and its multiple-billion dollar investments in fission being a bar to adoption of ‘cold fusion’ in France, and Cameron’s inexplicable, underhand and devious support for more fission power in the UK. Also, both countries (and Germany) support strong ‘green’ movements which, paradoxically perhaps, will not give up their solar panels and wind turbines easily.

    • stuey81

      gerade, you english speak good lol, check out the Tesla Model S, if you are into electric cars, the nissan leaf doesnt hold a candle to this Tesla