New Data to be Reported at Pordenone Meeting

I have been trying to find out more about what is going to be the subject of the October 12 meeting at the Polo Technologica in Purdenone, Italy. Andrea Rossi mentioned on his Journal of Nuclear Physics site that he would not be demonstrating his technology (I didn’t expect he would), but he would be presenting reports.

I emailed Rossi asking what might be subject of these reports might be, and he said that the only new part will be results of recent hot cat tests. So it sounds like that some of the same information presented in Zurich might be repeated. I notice that Rossi has only half an hour on the program, so I expect that he won’t go into too much detail. He took about three hours in Zurich to cover the report there.

I have been told by Rossi that I would receive a copy of the new information he will be presenting, but not sure when that will be. If any E-Cat World readers will be at this meeting, I am sure that everyone here would be interested in any reports that can be sent here, and would be grateful to hear any news. We’re always hungry for new E-Cat News!

  • GreenWin

    Could the forces of “evil” be winning? Corrupting tests, data, spreading rumors and lies? Perhaps the human race is simply not worth salvation and should remain in shadows of (science) ignorance forever. The “wonderful works” of only a few weeks past, seem no longer wondrous.

    “Evil” has ruled mortals these last 2,000 years. But, there is always the tiny light of transition available! The release from the material to pure consciousness, unburdened by mortal cares. A friend used to insist: We are all just spirits in a human suit, on a field trip. We live again when the field trip is gratefully over.

    • AstralProjectee

      Nice words of wisdom GreenWin. Our multiverse is much bigger than what we realize.

    • Frank

      ‘Could the forces of “evil” be winning? ‘

      If you mean by evil forces the ‘nasty’ coulomb barrier, then I have to agree this one time to you.

  • vbasic

    A little disappointing. I wonder if all
    lenr groups have the following problem
    as George Miley reports “Miley’s results demonstrate a COP of 7 after a few minutes but rises to a COP of 70 over 4 hours. However, it appears that the nanoparticles he is using begin to break down after 4 hours. ”
    From
    http://www.lenr-coldfusion.com/2012/09/21/george-miley-working-3kw-30kw-lenr-designs/

    • Peter_Roe

      I think that’s why most others are using pulsed ‘drive’ systems of one kind or another to keep the reaction at relatively modest COPs. Miley’s system appears to go into a mild thermal runaway that eventually sinters the nickel particles.

      According to some reports, DGT have an unrelated problem with the lifetime of some of their ‘drive’ components (modified spark plugs). First one to get a sustained output at COP=10+ without melting anything in under a month, wins a coconut plus a billion dollars. I’ll gladly supply the coconut!

      • Warthog

        I think the “Nanor” system demonstrated at MIT has surpassed that milestone….COP 14, many months continuous operation.

        • Peter_Roe

          Sorry, I should have specified an output at least in the kW range to qualify for the coconut!

    • buffalo

      yes,this is due to particle size unfortunately a big problem with many a catalyst.those particles musnt b 2 big or 2 small,trial and error.

    • Robert Mockan

      Sintering is a form of atom bonding by diffusion. The particles must be in contact to bond. One way to avoid this in non compacted nano nickel particles is to surround them with a ceramic that prevents the nano-particles from contacting one another. The use of ethyl ortho-silicate vapor can accomplish this by breaking down into silica (silicon dioxide) on the surface of the nano-particles when heated. This also enhances the “spillover” effect. Areta prevented sintering by encasing his active catalyst metals in another ceramic called zirconium dioxide.
      The downside to using discrete particles is these techniques inhibit conductive heat transfer. Piantelli has been working around this by using metal sheets surface treated to be LENR active to retain heat transfer through the metal base to avoid excess temperature from damaging the catalytic surface. Celani and his wire is another approach, by having the small diameter wires provide the rigid base for holding the LENR active surfaces in position. We also know from Celani work that silicon dioxide will not prevent the LENR effect, because that is how the active surface on his wire is generated, by repeated exposure and heating of ethyl ortho-silicate vapor on his wires to cause the LENR active surface morphology to develop.

      A lesson from the conventional nuclear power industry should be taken here. “Fuel rods” of small diameter metal tubes to hold the uranium compound being utilized are designed to transfer heat quickly out of the fuel rod where it is being generated by keeping the distance to the heat exchange fluid short. The center of the fuel rod operates at a maximum temperature that is higher than the temperature of the boiler, but not so high as to allow it to be damaged.

      Miley will eventually use the “fuel rod tube” design for heat exchange if he persists in using nano-particles, simply because it is a proven technique. And he will be applying a ceramic coating to the particles because that is the only way to prevent contact and bonding in a gas loaded system. The knowledge base common to powder metallurgy should probably be considered essential to assist in rapid design work for LENR catalyst applications using small particles.

      Self contained hermetically sealed LENR “fuel rod tubes” filled with active catalyst protected from sintering by a ceramic coating, and hydrogen, that turn on when heated to their activation temperature, can be bundled together to provide for any size reactor. A tube for example 1 centimeter in diameter a couple meters long providing for example 3000 thermal watts that can be inserted or withdrawn into a reactor heat exchanger of organic fluid at atmospheric pressure working at 400 C, can provide the thermal energy to a steam boiler. Bundle 20 or 60 or 105 tubes together, whatever, can provide the basic design for power reactors using LENR.

      • Ged

        I love the fuel rod idea. Hopefully someone will try that in the not too distant future.

      • ThinksforSelf

        Someone needs to make a screen mesh out of Celani’s wire. You could stack individual round sheets on top of each other with a circle of wire between them to act as a spacer. That would give a huge surface area in a small volume.

        • Robert Mockan

          I also think that is an excellent idea. I have an article at my web site where I discussed using hydrogen in a thermo-acoustic energy converter that could flow through a stack of such LENR active screen mesh, acting not only as the energy source, but the heat exchanger.
          I mentioned plates or tubes, for the LENR energy source also acting as heat exchanger components, but your screen mesh idea might be more compact because of increased surface area.
          If Celani would publish EXACTLY how his wire is treated such a screen mesh stack could be quickly made for testing, that could generate hundreds of thermal kilowatts. Since the thermo-acoustic converters can operate at 15% to 30% energy conversion, electrical generators could be mass produced using the screen mesh concept. They would be quiet, compact, powerful, lightweight, and possibly designed to operate for many years between refueling or replacing the LENR active stack.

          http://opensourcenuclearfuel.blogspot.com/2012/07/lenr-powered-thermoacoustic-generators.html

          • ThinksforSelf

            After further thought, a single loop may not work well as a spacer due to metals becoming flexible at temperature. The mesh circles would likely droop in the middle until they come in contact with the one below, so a loose spiral might be better as a spacer. Just turn the spiral piece 30 degrees or so on each consecutive layer and that should mechanically support the mesh.

            As for the process in making his wire it seems the goal is to create as many cracks and imperfections in the wire as possible without making it fail. To that end I would start by running fine grit sandpaper over the length to create parallel scratches along the length, maybe with 1000 grit or better. Then I would flex it over a series of essentially pulleys so that it gets bent gently back and forth 180 degrees repeatedly. The flexing should create many nice small microscopic cracks. I would then finish it off with a bath in low molar acid to widen the cracks and create pits. His exact recipe would be ideal, but I have a feeling he is going to hang on to that for awhile.

            • http://lenrplans.wordpress.com/ Owen

              I agree. Let’s not wait for products to trickle onto the marketplace at some distant point in the future (who knows when, considering the forces who are opposing commercialization).

              Celani does provide quite a bit of useful info: http://coldfusionnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Celani_ICCF17_Trasp3-1.pdf

              Use Celani’s info as a starting point and then combine with the physical processing (scratching, bending, acid bath) as you suggest.

              * The final system doesn’t have to be anywhere near as efficient as the Hot Cat to be useful. I’m envisioning a simple boiler to circulate water through a hydronic floor heating system (radiant floor heat) using primarily standard products.

              Question: How do you and Robert feel about adding a heating element down the center of the screen mesh discs? Each disc could have a center 1″ hole approx. to accommodate a heating element. http://www.watlow.com/products/heaters/multicell-insertion-heaters.cfm

        • http://lenrplans.wordpress.com/ Owen

          Good idea. Or make nickel sponge material using Celani’s ingredients. The sponge would have excellent structure with just the right amount of small cavities for NAE and spaces for hydrogen to flow. Google Image “nickel sponge” for some excellent pics.

          But Robert has brought up another issue. Will the ceramic coating still provide ample surface structure for reactions to take place?

          • Robert Mockan

            The LENR active wire Celani had made seemed to work, so increasing the amount of wire with a screen mesh should still work, just have more thermal power in a smaller volume, while still providing low resistance gas flow through it for heat exchange. A treated nickel sponge might not have the low flow resistance.

            There has been quite a bit of research into nickel nano-particles and silicon oxides that also suggest the presence of the ceramic coating actually helps catalytic activity. For example this article to make 3 nm nickel nano-particles, (in right size range for possible LENR activity!) dates back to 2001.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12914048

            • http://lenrplans.wordpress.com/ Owen

              Got it, thanks. One more idea. Celani’s wire is under tension, I believe. Would the screen mesh described above need to be under tension or could it just be stacked in the tube? Mesh/wires under tension would more readily create resonance.Maybe tension isn’t necessary since lots of pieces would be stuffed into a tube.

              Minor suggestion since I like the screen mesh idea: It would be easy to press ridges into the mesh in both directions as spacers. The ridges would create the optimum spacing between layers and eliminate placing wires between layers. Press the ridges before treating the mesh.

              • Robert Mockan

                In so far as the Celani LENR active wire surface probably functions like the E-Cat LENR active particles, my guess is tension in Celani wire is probably not an essential requirement.

                Pressing ridges to form a groove pattern then rotate the screen mesh disks to keep them apart a fixed distance. I like that.

                I’ve been doing a search for Constantin screen or mesh. Although there are other nickel alloy mesh sizes, none for Constantin yet.

                Unless mass produced for some existing application in industry, would be expensive if have to get it custom made.

                The big problem is finding out EXACTLY what the Celani surface treatment is. Without the specific procedure no way to make it LENR active, without many experiments.

                The ideas are good, but as usual there seem to be a few problems.

          • http://www.lenrforum.eu Alain

            look at Defkalion presentation at ICCF17and NIWeek
            http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=381

            http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/download/file.php?id=23#page=16

            “As a result, Ni, other agents and ceramics create a 48m2/gr surface of NAE (Nuclear Active Environment)”

            • Robert Mockan

              One of the interesting details about the Defkalion activation method for making reactive Rydberg hydrogen atoms, is their description of the “plasma ignition method” is identical to the “plasma transition process” allegedly enabling the Papp engine to react noble gases in a cylinder and piston configuration to generate shaft power.

              From Defkalion:

              “..we introduced the Plasma Ignition Method (DC pulsed at 24KV/22mA at some KHz) to produce glow discharges in a high pressure (2-8bar) Hydrogen envelope, by use of special shaped designed Tungsten and TZM electrodes..”

              Change the hydrogen to the Papp noble gas mixture in the Papp engine, with no need to use nickel particles, and supposedly one can have engine shaft power directly.

              Is any of this real? Well, the companies seem to exist, and they say they have products that work. But like with Rossi and his E-Cat, these do not seem to be orthodox business start-ups, and many people have become disillusioned about what to expect from them.

              They all imply products “just around the corner”…

  • Max S

    from facebook: posted by Giuliano Bettini
    “Cryptic messages on Cobraf.
    Seem to annouce:
    no “happy ending” of the story for October 12 (Pordenone).
    Everything is postponed to the end of November.”

    I refrain from further comments at this point in time.

    • admin

      I think that’s a reference to the big University report that people have been expecting, and Rossi hinted might be ready by the time of the Oct. 12 meeting.

      I think Rossi will be presenting his own data at Pordenone — not 3rd party. Just my guess.

      • Ged

        Shoot. That university person made it seems we might get that set of results. Be interesting to see what he has to say.

        Rossi better be careful here — crashing and burning is a vivid possibility.

    • captain

      On Oct.12 only 2 people missing, but Leonardo’s guys with CEO Rossi will be present.
      Thus IMHO an happy ending is expected 🙂

  • Chris

    Well, so many comments in previous threads are still awaiting moderation so I’ll repeat this here because it is quite relevant, about Pordenone:

    Neither Sabatini nor Majorana will be present.

    This I was told in reply to an email in which I asked the organization for further details. The reason given is that they “are prevented from it due to other commitments” (very loose translation but the concept is this).

    • Ged

      Too bad about Majorana. Hopefully they will have someone to replace him. Just two of the many people though. I wonder how much they can fit in a three hour conference.

      Will they be writing Rossi’s obituary, or giving him a wave of support? I suppose that will all be determined by what exactly he can show in half an hour, and what the faculty individual (and others) brings to the table, if indeed he’s working on the independent university testing of the hot cat. Rossi’s done well so far, but I hope he’s stepped up his game in preparation for this.

  • Omega Z

    Frank

    I’m not absolutely positive of this but I believe more info on the E-cat should be coming at the End of November. This may include the University tests.

    Mostly guessing here because I don’t speak Italian so I’m stuck with Google translate along with the fact that some of the info seems to be past in a cryptic manor. Like out of the blue-Responses don’t fit the Topic. I’m Just fitting pieces of the puzzle together from several different blogs, but mostly the same people jumping about & Along with Rossi’s extended testing.

  • georgehants

    The E-Cat could have a large economic effect therefore I believe it is a valid topic.
    I have tried and failed miserably to put across that a new system is required in the World for everybody to have the basics of existence guaranteed and for those willing to put in effort for society to be rewarded pro-rata.
    This involves the complete abandonment of money (except as a means of utility, probably points) and finance of any kind.
    That everything is based on production and manpower only.

    I am happy to discuss this system, only if we are discussing the overall major system and not every minor effect, they are infinite and only to be addressed if such a system where to be implemented.
    That no discussion involves present economics.
    That no discussion involves communism or capitalism but just a new independent system I am suggesting.

    • Ivan_cev

      I though about a money less word in the past, no motivation for crime, not police, not lawyers, not tax office, no banks, financial advisers, wall St, etc, etc, the percentage of people who actually produce is very small maybe 5% the rest are just parasites. All administered by computers…. maybe the day when we will be pets of them. But mean while there is one lawyer in the word this will be impossible.

    • AstralProjectee

      I’m curious. Tell me more.

      • georgehants

        Astral I have just put this comment up on forums but will leave here to see if any others wish to discuss.
        On this subject have to keep the string to avoid repetition so will transfer to forums as well.
        —-
        First, how many people would need to work in the U.K. to maintain the approximate present level of living, excluding all jobs involving money, finance, tax, vat, insurance, etc. etc. just no job that is not directly concerned with production or services to the population.

        • georgehants

          I have asked this question on the Economist Adam Smith and other financial sites and never yet had a sensible answer.
          If anybody can come up with a rough estimate I would appreciate.
          Anyway it can be counted in millions.
          With a system with no finance you would agree that all these people are now out of work but because the productivity has not changed there is no need for them to work.

          • Omega Z

            George

            Aside from our system being totally out of whack, the VERY First thing we need to do is eliminate the throw away mentality of society. We’re in a continuous cycle of replacing what we have. As long as your constantly replacing things you never get ahead. And there will never be enough to go around.

            And that’s basically what your talking about. Accumulating enough so that everyone eventually has enough.

            Example: We can’t afford to build new roads, because were spending everything we have to maintain or replace the old.

            Presently if you took all the worlds income & distributed it equally, it would come out to about $8500 per person. That’s 60 Trillion divided by 7 Billion people.

            Basically we need to produce much more, But it would be a lot easier if we weren’t constantly throwing away what we built yesterday.

            • georgehants

              Omega Z, I agree, that is why I am trying to start from the beginning again.
              Lots of things wrong but can you see the point I am trying to make above.
              Big subject, one little point at a time I think.

              • Andrew Macleod

                I agree with you George, there must be a better way to do things. I don’t think that money or lack of is the problem… It’s the symptom. Money is just a common bartering tool, you would be replacing one bartering tool for another. The main problem is intrest. Life would be better for all if the maximum allowed intrest was 5% instead of 28% albeit it would be much harder to get a loan but that’s not bad either it would force people to live within their means.

                • atanguy

                  “maximum allowed intrest was 5%”
                  Why not 0% ?
                  No interest= No money made with money= No capital = No capitalisme…

                • http://www.lenrforum.eu Alain

                  note that it is the law in france (probably in europe) to limit interest rate to avoid abusive rates and thus abusive risk (in French: “taux de l’usure”, “usure” meaning abusive loan)
                  some says that it would have forbidden some dangerous private loan…

                  note that if you limit rate you can allow dividend and sharing benefits.
                  that is the essence of capitalism, not the rate.

                  if you read “the next convergence” book, you can understand that the bad situation in economy is capitalism with no growth, leading to monopolies and abuse of position and economic rents.

                  in high growth, even when you are rich, you can be surpassed by poor smar guys that get in the good revolution…
                  inequalities grows but not because of family, just because of talent and luck…
                  job of regulation is to allow equal chances, forbide economic rent and monopolies, help growth in undevelopped zone, until all is developped, then organize some redistribution, during lifetime, and between generations… just to avoid misallocation of capital and social tension that are against efficient economy.

              • Robert Mockan

                Self repairing general purpose robots to run the physical economy could provide goods for maintaining a high standard of living for every living person. Not maybe, this can happen. The technology to do this should be developed enough within the next 20 years. The only reason it might not happen is the technology is prevented from being developed, or if developed, will be prevented from being utilized.

                I suspect any more delay in realizing that future may be attributed to the same causes as the delay in realizing LENR development.

      • http://www.zazzle.com/energyrevolution Tony McDougall

        AstralProjectee,

        Georgehants’ enthusiasm for waking up the sheeple is commendable, but don’t encourage him 🙂

        Le’ts keep to the topic raised by Frank (E-Cat World)

        • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

          Yes, let’s keep to Cold Fusion, and incidentially, the throw away concept of material economy is in fact a good one for technological advancement and advances in computation. As a general rule you will need to replace a laptop every two years. Your biological body is replaced every three years, and if Cold Fusion proves to be an information technology, the reactors will need to be replaced every three years. But…keep to Cold Fusion!

          • http://www.zazzle.com/energyrevolution Tony McDougall

            I thought the Zeitgeist Movement was a good idea when I first heard about it 😉 I think it was about the same time that Andrea Rossi did his first public demonstration. Gee, how time flies!

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      Whether abandoning money would work or be beneficial, I don’t know. But I do know that it’s a useful exercise which economists should practice much more to look at economy without looking at money at the same time. That is, to look at the flux of materials, food, energy, individuals and on the physical activities that people do, much like one observes a nest of ants from a distance. At each activity one asks the question how does it contribute to the shorter or longer term well-being of the nest (mankind). In other words, to think how our activities would appear to an outside observer who doesn’t know our language and culture and can only observe our physical doings.

      George by the way, they didn’t delete your message at Defkalion since it’s there.

      • georgehants

        Pekka, have moved your comment to forums, hope you don’t mind, better place for it, I think.
        Ahhh, yes I see it, wait for answer now.

    • Fibber McGourlick

      Georgehants, can I have your money when you abandon it?

  • http://www.zazzle.com/energyrevolution Tony McDougall

    I would like to see some photos of the new Hot Cat prototypes at Purdenone.

  • georgehants

    The Defkalion site has had no comments for a week.
    I put a very simple question yesterday asking for their timetable of events.
    It was not published, just a little strange I think.

    • http://www.lenrforum.eu/ AlainCo

      I’ve seen your comment…
      maybe moderator is busy, and still in europe TZ.