Sterling Allan of PESN has published a report of his experience at the Zurich E-Cat conference, and has provided some interesting details that have not yet come out of previous reports. He reports spending a lot of his time at the conferencewith Roger Green and William Donovan of E-Cat Australia, and also spoke with other attendees and seems to have gleaned some useful information in his discussions. Here are some quotes from his article:
A little secret I’ll let you in on is that Rossi does have self-looped data for the Hot-Cat, but chose not to release that at this time. Self-looped is effectively a COP of infinity. One likely reason for Rossi holding back on that data is that the present stipulation of the safety certification requires that the unit not be self-looped. This is partially because if the input is externally derived, such as from natural gas, then it can be shut off, stopping the reaction; whereas in a self-looped system, such a rapid shut-off would not be as easy.
Within a couple of months, a 1 MW unit is supposed to be installed in Northern Italy that will be able to be inspected by potential buyers. I talked to someone at the conference who may purchase one in Hawaii, and he would gladly let people come see it. Human nature is such that there are few who dare to be first, while most people race to be second.
The self looping referred to here would seem to be the using some of the heat produced by the E-Cat to power its own drive. I am guessing that he has not tried using electricity yet, because of statements from Rossi where he mentions they are still working on being able to produce electricity from the E-Cat. The information here is sketchy, and Allan does not say who told him about this self-looping, but it would not be surprising to me to find that Rossi has been trying all kinds of experiments as he puts the Hot Cat through its paces in the R&D process.
The full report from Sterling Allan can be read here.
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Andrea Rossi
September 13th, 2012 at 1:45 AM
Dear Giuseppe B.:
Mr “Gary Wright” ( a false name that the coward snake ( The Snake) is using for cowardice, has contacted SGS in an unproper way and has put an unproper question.
So he published on his newbogusenergybricolage that we do not have a SGS certificate. This is the evidence, as if there was any necessity, that when the Snake ( or, better, the puppet Snake) as usually has published a falsity.
Within hours you will find our Voluntary Safety Certificate.
So you will see who is that says the truth and who is that has an agenda.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
nice can’t wait
Just as I expected… Sometimes you can get the answers you want by asking the wrong questions.
Excellent news. We seem to be creeping towards validation…
If Rossi is a scam artist, then he has taken the scam to a whole new level. Hey sceptics! – at least give him that credit!!
I am hopeful that within a few weeks we will have some definitive proof of this technology and some understanding of the position on marketing. If not, well Rossi’s credibility may well collapse at that point.
“Voluntary”? So this testing for safety was not part of an official product certification?
Andrea Rossi
September 12th, 2012 at 8:12 AM
Dear Mr. G:
Yes, we will.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Mr.G
September 12th, 2012 at 6:30 AM
Dear Andrea Rossi,
I think the one smart experiment will silence most of sceptics. Make two equal hot-cats, but put hydrogen tablet only in one of them, connect the resistances of both hot-cats in series and measure the temperatures of them. If the hot-cat with hydrogen will be hotter than the second one without hydrogen this will be clear evidence of LENR reaction.
….
ok Lets see….
Good proposal. Or how about this: Rossi should prepare two identical e-cats and the jury provides their own electrical power output calibrated beforehand by scientists. A jury can then load one e-cat with H and the other with He. A simple comparative measure would put the truth on the table.
He should show the original version. Wich btw is the one with best COP. And I cannot state this enough, warm water is quite enough. The market for that is humongous in it self.
He has himself said that the orginial version is done and finished and it has been for a long time. He is producing them in his factory. And he has also used one to heat his factory for several years. Its perfected already, and it would be the biggest news for a decade when he presents it. And it would attract billions upon billions of investor money should he want that.
He has the lead aldready given what he says is true. He risk losing that unless he launch and show the device he already produce. Show it and he can have billions dollar to use and capitalize on his lead.
All we want is warm water, 60 degrees celsius warm water is all we want.
Why does he not silent criticts and clowns by having this original version verified? He has been producing them for over a year.
Why does he not verify the orginal one that he has many of and get as much money he wants and explode his company to the worlds largest company in less than a year?
I agree. I posted a little more ambitious wanting 80ºC but as you say 60ºC es enough for human environemental heating.
“Why does he not silent criticts and clowns (and snakes) by having this original version verified?”
Is it true that he has been producing them for over a year?
I do not dare to respond as it could be subject of moderation.
Even though my post is being moderated.
Alexvs, you and ivan_cev seem to continually try to make a big thing about moderation on this forum. I wonder why? If you trigger automatic moderation – which can be rather capricious – then Admin will usually ‘pass’ the comment quickly, providing it does not contain insults, FUD, repeated ‘debating points’ etc. So just post reasonably and constructively, and your comments will be seen and no doubt deeply appreciated by all.
Edit: How’s that for irony – ‘Your comment is awaiting moderation’!
Ok. Let us try:
I agree. I posted a little more ambitious wanting 80ºC but as you say 60ºC es enough for human environemental heating.
“Why does he not silent criticts and clowns (and snakes) by having this original version verified?”
Is it true that he has been producing them for over a year?
I dare to respond: NO
“Why does he not verify the orginal one..” In his recent replies he has said multiple times that they will do also that and publish it at the same time as the hotcat peer-reviewed report.
Patrik
The Hot Cat doesn’t have a set COP at this time.
I have a feeling that when the R&D is finished, the Final Prototype may have a higher COP then 6.
Much higher I think. But he needs the protection of widespread public knowledge of the relatively non-threatening (to energy producers) low temperature COP6 unit before releasing specific info about what is possible with the new type.
I am repeating this because I think is important.
Have you seen the letterhead in the report? there is none.
Here is from the report:
E-Cat Certification:
Fabio Penon , M.Eng. (Nuclear Engineer, Product Certification Specialist)
E-Cat Electronic Control System Specialist:
Fulvio Fabiani, M.Eng.
Radiation Protection Report:
David Bianchini, M.Sc (Physicist, Radiation Measurements Specialist).
…..
David Bianchini, M.Sc.
Via Emilia Ponente 375
40132 – Bologna
VAT No. 0137800578
To the kind attention of :
EFA Srl [EFA Ltd.]
Via Marsili 4
40100 Bologna
Tax Code and VAT No. 02826781208
Notice… no Signatures.
Only Bianchini gives is VAT number.
Bianchini test radiation.
The other Guys do not compromise.
This is not a legal document. it is not signed!!!!!
Ivan,your comments are not signed either,try looking outside the box sometimes,or read between the lines, Rossi’s E-cat works, Cold Fusion is alive and well, most people are stuck in a distorted reality ,reality is not what you think it is.Sorry you may be among those who have been successfully brain washed by current knowledge high priests.
peace and live well.
peace to you as well my friend….keep your high flying thinking.
Ivan_cev … my 2 cents.
Thanks
Ivan,
did you notice that some of the correction documents were apparently edited by an employee of hydrofusion who are still Rossi agents. This suggests they took part in the testing. At least the independence of the reports is seriously compromised because of this.
Good observation. Thanks.
As NOTED in two previous posts there appears to be an agenda unfolding at the Swedish Journal NyTeknik where on March 6th a new Editor was appointed to replace Mats Lewan who got a promotion to a new magazine. The new “editor” is Mats Engstrom – a man with absolutely no published technical background who was once a political writer for a Swedish newspaper and a political activist adviser.
Engstrom is a hardcore climate change advocate who has written vehemently about failures in European climate policy and ways to force the issue back into the public eye. Here on his blog you can read his near-ranting about climate:
https://matsengstrom.wordpress.com/
NyTeknik under Mats Lewan took a balanced view of Rossi’s work with Lewan leading by actually going to see and talk to Rossi and scientists observing his work. Suddenly, now with a political writer editing a technology journal, we see hitman type stories based on little evidence. For example, who is the person who tested the hotcat in Bologna September 6?? Where is his data? Where is the report? Who has verified the discrepancy in measurements?? What equipment was used? How was the equipment calibrated??
We suspect there will be no answers to these questions soon. We can speculate that the one balanced journal reporting on cold fusion is now taken an adversarial role and will write smear stories on Rossi and nothing on LENR.
This takes little insight to see the play. Removing editors of journals willing to publish non-approved science is a staple of the old school. Had Mats Lewan been editing Ny Teknik as this came down, we would likely never have seen a story until he confirmed the data from whoever the testing party was. Since we still do not have any verified information about the purported test on Sept 6, I will assume it non-existent.
And I will further suggest that people here who would like to see cold fusion LENR and other alternative energy gain acceptance – write to the owners of Ny Teknik and demand they at least appoint an Editor with a science and technology background. Engstrom is a political writer with no technical credentials. Here is the person who appears in charge of the Swedish division of Talentum Sweden AB:
Roger Thoren
President and CEO
Talentum Sweden AB
Mäster Samuelsgatan 56
106 12 Stockholm
Sweden
Telephone: +46 8 796 6650
Email: roger.thoren@talentum.se
Aarne Aktan
Chief Executive Officer
Talentum Oyj
Annankatu 34–36 B, Helsinki
P.O. Box 920, 00101 Helsinki, Finland
Telephone: +358 204 4240
Fax: +358 204 424 130
Email: Aarne.Aktan@talentum.fi
http://www.talentum.fi
Joachim Berner
Chairman of the Board
Talentum Sweden AB
Mäster Samuelsgatan 56
106 12 Stockholm
Sweden
Telephone: +46 8 796 6650
Email: Joachim.Berner@talentum.se
Internet: http://www.talentum.se
But the original news on Nyteknik has been written [and signed] from Mats Lewan.
Säd going to say it myself: it was Mats Lewan. You know, conspiracy theories are all fun and entertaing but in the end they’re madness. So why would we believe your analysis? Why are you more credible than Ny Teknik? By the way, why on earth would a climate activist want to scuttle something that would send big oil tumbling to the ground??? Perhaps, you know, the story is this: the test failed and those involved had the integrity to take that to heart. As a matter of fact, I know that’s what happened, but since I won’t betray confidence I’m not going to say more about that (just so you know why I’m hard to budge by speculations). If you don’t believe that, then feel free not to.
Claes, thank you for your comments. Mats was indeed the author of the story – though we still have no evidence from the test. As I understand it the test was only on a hot-cat with a “new power supply and hydrogen source.” There is no “conspiracy” suggested – just information control which has been in place for centuries.
Since we have now a firm confirmation (SGS Certification) of Rossi’s lower temp technology – one would think the Ny Teknik /Hydrofusion / investor outcry regarding an experimental prototype test result – an over-reaction.
Claes, you ask a very good question re why a climate activist would oppose LENR. I have yet to meet any climate activists who support LENR, cold fusion or Ing Rossi in their work. There have been literally thousands of opportunities for this to occur in green publications and media. To date not a single “green” entity has publicly supported the cold fusion movement.
How many versions of iPhone do we get before we se an e-cat?
(sorry had to say it)
Dunno.
Perhaps Apple will invest and we’ll get an iCat?
10-20 I’d guess.
Depends on what ecat you mean, the industrial we will soo within a few months. But the domestic will properly take at least one more iphone
Wow the wiki updaters are quick, it’s already reporting that the swedes pulled out… I didn’t see any mention of the published report tho..
The speed proves that someone on wikipedia is constantly monitoring the topic for negative ‘news’ that can be used to ‘diss’ the subject.
The page is also being concidered for deletion.
which page?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer#section_4
wikipedia.org is collecting negative things about the E-cat.
Why? to support the status quo ?
some body thinks the E-cat is an impossibility ? ,I guess based on what they know,and it appears they are not playing with a full deck of cards and based on what they learned in college science class,which is not much.
so much for wikipedia.org about fair play and educating and brainwashing the media, most people would trust wiki’s information,but their views are distorted reality,when it comes to the E-cat.
wikipedia ,lie and live well !
Big Oil/Wind/Horse and Buggy Manufactures have had wiki on lock down for years. Dont expect anything on there to be unbiased.
BW
Would Big Energy(or just Big Energy investors) hire shills to throw spikes in the road of LENR? “Of COURSE they would”. No ethics, lots of money, completely self-centered. It works for Assad in Syria and the Chinese government with respect to Tibet and Taiwan, why not for Big Energy investors in the Heartland?
Nasty. But technical progress will just crush them out the way anyway. It always does.
I just found an very elegant solution for the true ‘gestalt’ of hot-cat.
It is is easy to imagine a groove carved in the internal side of ceramic cylindrical supports of resistors holders in which an “external” tungsten tube can be seated.
So the true arrangement of hot-cat could be the following:
inner steel tube – inner tungsten tube – OUTER TUNGSTEN TUBE hidden from the two heaters – heaters joined together from outer tungsten tube – outer steel tube.
Clues: the two heater are too heavy; the two heaters pieces appear very firmly connected on scale flat; at page 6 of the official report is said: … after removing the inner cylinder and two of the ceramic fittings, while leaving the active charge inside the apparatus…; the hot-cat MUST have an axial simmetry on physical ground. The active core MUST seat between two tungsten layers.
If the arrangement I suggest is true we have a corollary, too: Cures is [sometimes] a liar. Indeed he has answered a direct question on appearance of inner tube in official report images saying that it is made of pure steel and must be only painted.
Rossi blog:
Bob Norman
September 18th, 2011 at 1:45 PM
“In looking for Lead replacements I found this company:
h__p://w_w.radiationshieldingsolutions.com/shielding_solutions_xray_gamma_ray_shielding_tungsten_heavy_alloy.html”
Last but not least, if you have a metallic cylinder very near the heaters resistances, you could have a very high inductive load and wrong power readings ….
The report does not mention Tungsten at all. So either we are wrong (quite possibly) or the report deliberately misstated the composition of the inner tube. This would be very disturbing on a number of levels.
The inner tube [2x32x330 mm] weights 705 gr on scale.
Steel weights 8 gr for cubic centimeter. Tube volume is 66 cubic centimeters, If it were of ‘pure’ steel, would weight 528 grams ONLY. The report is misleading, at least. Rossi has severe problems with Patens Office and so he is forced to hide his IP.
This is supposed to be an independent report. And I’m sure Rossi reviewed it personally as well.
The discrepancy is objective. I find it in the official report. Rossi reviewed it for sure …
Incidentally, I am asking if in the test the inner cylinder was grounded.
Is there another report other than what was posted here a few days ago?
We have two version of report around. One leaked after Zurich conference, the other published from Cures on Cobras forum as the true official one. But weights and images are exactly the same.
hammerskoj
The long porcelain tube with groves down the sides. That’s where the heater coils are placed. Spiral heaters similar to what is used in cloths dryers.
Yes, obviously. Never show the inner sides. On scale the two porcelain “thoroids” appear firmly aligned and I speculate that are joined with an axial, internal tungsten tube.
hammerskoj
Maybe I misunderstand your statement or you mine.
Just to clarify- You can see the Coils in the slots.
How do we know the inner tube volume? We know the outer diameter and length, but not the wall thickness. Did you estimate the wall thickness from the image to arrive at 66 cm3 material volume?
Easy; from a table of first leaked report: inner tube, thickeness 2mm.
Documents MUST be read extensively.
Inner tube thickness is stated in the ‘official’ report too. Page 12.
Just to clarify,
The first report was not ‘leaked’. It was sent to me by Andrea Rossi some days before the Zurich Conference. Just before the conference he sent me the errata.
The other report on the cobra site seems to be a corrected report incorporating the errata.
So from the report that Fabian Penon guy is a certifier from sgs
I don’t think the company was named…..
SGS was named by Rossi at the conference, not mentioned in the report.
Regarding SGS “involvement” read the emails here
http://shutdownrossi.com/?page_id=1774
Just more lies by Gary Wright…..
according to Methusela on another site (that appears to have many paid skeptics commenting.. or just morons)
His company certified some items via SGS for safety and for compliances but his company doesn’t appear on the SGS website search.
Yes this appears to verify that these specific companies do not have any completed certificates with SGS.
It would be better to ask SGS if they have an employee called “Fabian Penon”.
I am not surprised,
court order is going to expose the owner of this site to include IP from updates, this is going to look so good in court, to be sure, we are pretty sure who has their hands in this.
Humm….did I miss something???
Why did Gary contact the Philippines office??? Strange
PaulC57 – Your post infers access to inside knowledge. Do you act for Andreas Rossi in some legal capacity?
I’m no lawyer but I guess if the ecat is proven beyond any doubts, you’d have him on defamation of character in the least, rusulting in a cease and disist order. Giving the judge wasn’t paid off.
SGS was named at the conference as giving safety certification to the 1MW, industrial plant only. That is the plant that outputs steam at 120 degrees celcius.
From Cold Fusion Times —-
Magnetic Effects Featured at
CF/LANR Nanostructured Materials Colloquium at MIT
The JET Energy NANOR Explorer™ Produces CF/LANR Results
Sept. 11, 2012 – Cambridge, MA. – Continuing to address the unique lattice material science (including the optical and acoustic properties) and electrical engineering aspects of cold fusion (lattice assisted nuclear reactions (CF/LANR) Dr. Mitchell Swartz (JET Energy, Inc.) and MIT’s Prof. Peter Hagelstein continued their Colloquia at MIT on September 6, 2012. This series featured updates on CF/LANR nanostructured materials, and the impact of magnetic fields on CF/LANR nanomaterials, such as ZrO2-PdNiD. Dr. Swartz presented data showing augmentation of conventional cold fusion using magnetic fields impacting NANOR™ CF/LANR devices, observed when driven by the JET Energy “NANOR Explorer”. Dr. Brian Ahern of Vibronics, Inc. shared data showing possible energy gain in nanostructured ferrites. The next engineering meeting anticipates discussion of Prof. Hagelstein’s physics theory of understanding He4* de-excitation through lossy processes involving spin bosons, recent CR39 investigations involving NANORs and other CF/LANR devices, and rapidly developing technologies.
http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
Love the phrase “conventional cold fusion”!
Its a v. interesting article that ‘hardens’ what many have suspected; that magnetic fields (and probably RF and pulsed current flow) are promotors of the AHE.
An article in Italian below “5 demands of Homo Scepticus” looks like fun, too, but I haven’t put it through G-trans yet.
Hahaha, that cracked a smile on my face. We’ve advanced to the point where we can think of the old experiments as “conventional cold fusion”? Wow.
These are fascinating results, and so awesome to see these successful experiments are continuing. A comprehensive picture of how cold fusion works is swiftly emerging.
I will like to buy one of this NANOR devices!!!
It could be a wonderful toy demo.
As I said before a COP of 1.1 shows the way to Tera-watts of excess power, in this case the COP is much higher 14 to 17, but the output is in milliwatts so the input is in micro-watts.
Still ok. As Homoscalatus, is a specialist making thing bigger and better.
Now this is what I call real research. Put that thing in magnetic fields, electric fields and what not. Just to see the effects and may be to enhance it. Because no one knows what will do the magic.
Yep – if Edison was alive he would be on combination/permutation #200 at least by now!
This is the beauty of empirical experimentation
A little more science being treated as Cold Fusion is.
The comments seem familiar.
—-
Water memory: as distinct as DNA
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=96e_1346958090&comments=1
@ivan_cev
Your trolling is monotonous. Here are the facts. Rossi has published a signed report with method and data showing he has a working product. The screams of fraud and scam aren’t based on facts, there is no supporting evidence for these claims. No investor or potential customer had filed any kind of lawsuit, there is no warrant for his arrest, There is no evidence! If you come across some I will listen but until then knock it off.
Hi, Andrew.
I agree, Great piece frank, I love this from Sterling.
Human nature is such that there are few who dare to be first, while most people race to be second.
GREAT THINGS ARE HAPPENING if you listen, you can sometimes hear it above the constant babel of the ignorant.
Still early stages…. wait and see.
The behavior of Rossi is self evident.
He is developing a device that should work for 6 months, then refill.
Then in his factory he should have a dozen units working continuously producing heat steam etc, and will be the demo for his investors.
No investor has seen a working device.
The measurements are now in doubt, and is clear the source of the problem is the power supply.
Any serious inventor will have a prototype to show the principle in which the invention is based.
To any question the answer is “We waiting for Certification”.
The last report is based in Measurement of the input power and heat, now the observation of the input power has been questioned.
This pattern will go on for the years to came, until some investor lose patience.
I know you would like the E-cat to be real, me too but after two years reading about Rossi, I am now convince that He is the biggest thread to the LENR field.
Any way…..I admire your faith.
@Ivan_cev
“Any serious inventor will have a prototype to show the principle in which the invention is based.”
And who will they show it to? Do you regard the people who built Silicon Valley as serious inventors? What is your familiarity with their patterns of behavior?
Or are you just making stuff up and expressing it in that particular tone of writing?
Will show it to the patent office, so he could get a patent.
Will show it to the public so he will get customers, licensees, partners, etc.
Silicon valley are working on tested and accepted principles.
We talking about an “impossible” device here.
If Rossi have the device, then he is missing trillions of dollars in investing money. Just show the prototype in a serious scientific way use a professional adviser to design the test. People will invest in e_cats like crazy.
agreed with Ivan
I cant believe that a power utility can make a kWh meter and use it effectvely all over the world and there seems to be doubt as to how power is measured in the ecat
There are many good points there Ivan…… Could you give me some links to verify the source of this info?
Please Specify the point you need clarification
I love the T-shirt mentioned in Sterling Allen’s article…. Rossi’s answer to critics….
absolutely hilarious I will be ordering one… http://www.zazzle.com/andrea_rossi_caricature_for_dark_colors_t_shirt-235377601069236725
That’s too funny! I wonder what Rossis reaction to this willd be. I don’t think he’ll be too extatic about it.
Hi, guys
I liked the one that said,vote Rossie and Focardi for noble prize.
no joking.
Only people who disclose and publish and prove their discoveries get Nobel prices. I think this will not be possible due an NDA!
If I had the secret and got refused a patent to protect my IP then I would be dolling out NDAs like candy on Halloween. It’s not unusual behavior. I’m pretty sure most others would do the same.
If you have an invention based in an unprove principle, you could patent it if you get your device to the pattent office and they prove it works!, they you will be trillonarie, and get a nobel price also, and your name will be in future science books, and some unit of messurment will carry your name….etc.
But if you go with docs and reports. yes! will be rejected.
dream on Ivan,reality is different,thousands of patents are blocked due to national security issues,energy is covered under national security,The E-cat did not just get missed by the media,media follows protocol,reporting on E-cat is restricted and forbidden.
that is reality !!!!
..There is still a big world outside the USA.
oops again
This T-shirt has been around a while. I think someone posted the link to Rossi sometime ago.
If you live in Australia, the t-shirts are also available at http://www.21stcenturyenergyrevolution.com.au
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=733&cpage=1#comment-319663
Andrea Rossi
September 12th, 2012 at 3:53 AM
Dear Felize:
We will be able to couple the Hot Cat to a turnbine and make the Carnot Cycle only after our validation tests, R&D and measurements will have been finished. All the results we got so far, have to be confirmed with cross examinations.
At that point we will make the coupling and with a good efficiency we will have a tremendous achievement: the drive will be made by the system itself. I think you understand. But a lot of work has to be done to arrive here. We are on our way…
Warm Regards,
A.R.
This will be the true validation test. A closed loop system generating electricity with no input(except for the initial startup). I wonder if a battery could supply enough juice to get it started? Then once started it could charge the battery back up.
Does not matter if they use a battery. what matters is that the device produces more energy than can be contained in the box using chemistry means. So a battery is ideal. Also pulling the starting plug would be OK.
I’m just wondering if it could be designed in such a way that it produces energy without any need of outside power. Like a car you don’t need to plug it in to get it started(except in Canada we need block heaters).
It is simply incredible to predict what is going to happen next,it appears now the hot cat lost a lot of potential investors because the hot cat can be self looped.
Self looped ,meaning once the hot cat reaches self sustain temperatures,it can then be unplugged and keeps on going.
It appears some say once self sustain temperatures are reached it can not be shut off ?
how about a cooling system to stop the reaction !!
some mayor investers want to back out,why because Rossi won,t yet sell the self looped Hot Cats ?
Rossi is being careful about it all.
He”s the Man.
I will tell you what will happen… More certifications..new planes and offers the future is great…. but is in the future… always in the future
Maybe The Truth is somewhere in the middle.
To Admin: Yes, I know, but I want to say it twice
No dull moment – it’s all certainly entertaining
There’s that draggy….tone…of…voice…again…slowly …pulling…things…down…
To where exactly? Is it all just counter punch? Any originality?
Maybe The Truth is somewhere in the middle.
In image at pag.9 of 105322688-Penon4-1.pdf, thermocamera is far too left of device. Reported images need a centered camera.
hammerskoj,Don’t worry about the thermocamera ,the thing will run is self sustain mode for six month,when it reaches the same temperature as the heating element.
I wondered right from the start,why a 2.2 KW heating element was required for the Hot Cat,really huge for such a small unit,but specifically designed to reach self sustain mode and infinite COP.
WELL DONE ROSSI
I worry for each discrepancy in test setup. Realty allows no contradictions.
But realty does allow for bubbles, apparently.
bubble fusion?
Emissivity is highest at a perpendicular angle. If there is an error, it means the device made more heat than we know. However, there is not an error, as the angle is indeed perpendicular as far as is visible. Here’s a handy chart for what happens versus the angle when doing thermal imaging http://www.flir.com/uploadedImages/CS_EMEA/Application_Stories/Electrical-Mechanical/Images/Emissivity.PNG
What? I don’t see how it is left of the device? What do you mean? You keep seeing things in these pictures and I can’t follow you.
Regardless, a thermal camera can be up to 30 degrees off perpendicular center and work just fine. I’m not sure what the max is, but I do know 30 degrees is no problem. It looks like the camera is straight on perpendicular. So, even if the camera is a little left or right, yet perpendicular, it’s completely fine, as the entire device is still in the camera’s window.
In other words, it doesn’t matter if the camera is to the right or left as long as its -angle- of view is within 30 degrees of perpendicular, and the device is within the camera’s view widow. Your concerns seem unfounded.
Ok, found the picture which shows where the camera is (page 8, rather than 9, which confused me). As I said, that’s completely fine for thermal imaging. It’s the -angle- of the view that matters for thermal, and that is indeed a perpendicular angle, so we’re all good on that point.
(Also, what will happen at angles off perpendicular is that less of the heat will be detectable due to incidence. So, if the camera was off angle to the point where the results were affected, it means there was more heat than detected)
The positioning of the camera is essential in order to calculate total heat emited from the cylinder, thus measuring total energy out.
If the camera is not centered it throws the calculations off. With a thermal camera used in this case, it must be perpendicular to the cylinder in order to correctly interpolate the total energy release, assuming the heat distribution was equal on all axis.
Unless you knew the exact angle and horizontal offset of the camera from the device, all calculations will be off. Good thing however, all calculations would be off, yet they would read an overall lower output than the actual.
Yep, exactly. The angle looks to be perpendicular, so emissivity should be close enough to max that we don’t have to worry. The only deal will be the angle of the extreme end away from the camera. However, if it is within 30 degrees, there is no tangible change to our results (and that is what it looks like).
When evaluating solar panels, for instance, reliable thermal imagining can be done up to 60 degrees off perpendicular.
This issue is really a non issue, and again as you and I have pointed out, any affect on the calculations will be to incorrectly decrease the amount of heat we calculate as being generated. The picture is better than we think.
Joe
September 12th, 2012 at 4:14 AM
Dr Rossi,
1. Does the Hot Cat use Pb shielding?
2. Does the Hot Cat use benzene?
3. Does the Hot Cat use only STABLE isotopes of Ni?
4. If so, does the Hot Cat leave the ratio of isotopes essentially UNchanged after use?
5. Does MOST of the heat generated by the Hot Cat come from phenomena OTHER than transmutation of elements?
All the best,
Joe
——
Andrea Rossi
September 12th, 2012 at 4:25 AM
Dear Joe:
1- no, W shielding
2- no
3- yes
4- i think so, but the possible variations are so small that it is difficult to know, they could be contained in the variation range of the natural composition
5- yes
Shielding is tungsten [Rossi' answer on his blog].
Page 4 of first, LEAKED report 105322688-Penon4-1.pdf, extract and enlarge bottom left image with gauge: it shows clearly that inner tube is double.
Maybe a strange thought. Is it possible to use magnetisme to align the nikkel powder in the way you want? In this case stick to the inner side of the tungsten tube. Only thing, i was reading that nikkel wasn’t magnetic at higher tempetures, so maybe you need another compouned in the nikkel. I don’t have knowledgd about these kind of things, just a thought.
There has been a lot of discussion about ‘unwanted frequencies’ and similar in regard to the electrical feed. I wonder if the heater coils might be used as a RF antenna, in addition to providing simple heating? Rossi has mentioned RF stimulation on several occasions in the past, but this seems to be the only way it could be applied in the hot cat apparatus. Use of RF chopping would certainly screw up any simple instrumentation, and might have made the Swedish technician unhappy!
Peter
Yes Rossi has stated on several occasions that RF is used.
Hammerskoj – If the inner tube is double-walled, then it may be that the ‘charge’ is contained between the two walls (I assume that is what you think may be the case).
It would then make sense that both walls were tungsten, both to provide high temperature stability, and to provide shielding in in both directions (20% of any radiation into the inner void would escape according to Zedshort’s calculations for IR emissions).
This arrangement may contradict one or two statements made by Rossi and ‘Cures’ but it would make a lot of sense, and would certainly explain observations such as the very hot interior with a relatively cool exterior. In this case of course, the SGS test would have detected only heat leaking back through the ceramic core to the outer skin.
A couple of other interesting implications if a thin annulus between double inner tubes is in fact the location of the reactor materials:
(a) The first is that the design is almost deliberately inefficient, in that the heating elements are placed close to the large outer tube, but separated from the core by the thickness of the ceramic carrier unit. This arrangement seems to ensure maximum input heat loss through the outer skin and minimum transfer of heat to the core.
(b) The second is that there is no way that heat, per se, can be used in the ‘hot cat’ as a control mechanism. The reason is the thermal mass of the ceramic carrier of the heating elements, which very ensures poor coupling of input power to heat actually reaching the core. It seems clear to me that heat is only required to establish an optimum environment (which appears to be around 600C according to Ged’s observations of the temp curve). Stimulation of anomalous heat production is therefore by some other means, most likely frequency modulation of the heater supply to induce EM fields that affect the core.
I’ve enhanced and magnified a copy of the image you refer to and agree that the inner tube definitely looks twin-walled; 2 walls about 1.5mm thick with a gap between them possibly 0.1-0.3mm. This would be sufficient to house a layer of fuel ‘paint’ applied to the inner tube and allowed to dry, before bonding on the outer tube (Pekka has calculated that only a few microns would be required.)
Very well spotted!
One other remote possibility occurs to me – that the hot cat actually uses tungsten in the walls of the tubes as ‘fuel’, like the Pirelli high school experiments. In this case the ‘fill’ between the tubes could be a mixture of catalyst(?) and a hydride H2 donor.
In the report it says, that also to inner tube is painted with the expensive paint if I remember correct.
Never the less a fuel paint would be interesting.
Yes, the inside of the inner tube assembly could have been painted with ‘jet engine’ paint, although this doesn’t seem to have been necessary as IR was not measured from the core. Given the cost of the stuff that seems a bit odd!
The COLOR of external face of inner tube before painting is wrong. Compare with the color and shimmer of steel plate of scale. I have worked with tungsten plate and tube’s color is very near. I picked up many small incongruences in the leaked report, too. The before and after weights are strange, for example. And dismantled inner tube appears non perfectly round, his right side shows a sort of dent.
Inner tube has a volume of 65,98 cubic centimeters and weight 705 grams. If were build from mild steel it would weight 518,6 grams. It weight 705 grams on scale.
It does all add up – I think the idea of twin tungsten tubes with a thin layer of something in between is probably correct. Posibly the ‘dent’ you see is a way to ensure that the inner of the two tubes can be jammed into the outer one, leaving a small gap.
As a separate hydrogen donor ‘pill’ as suggested by Rossi or ‘cures’ would not be able to supply H2 to the space between the two tubes, the hydride must in fact be between the two tubes along with the ‘fuel’ and/or catalyst, making the ‘inner tube’ the actual reactor. All that would be needed is to seal the thin annular gap at the ends with the smelter grade fireclay (it could be mechanically sealed for a production version).
Presumably the gas version consists of simply heating the reactor tube using an internal flame.
Two twin tungsten tubes would weight too much. Tungsten density is 19,25 grams/cubic centimeter. Only the external one is tungsten, perhaps. It is easy to proof or disproof. Assume one millimeter wall thickness. The same [as check] for the external tube. Note that the reactor don’t appear pressurized, but it MUST contain a source of H.
If the interior tubes are made of steel and tungsten they could detach/separate from each other because of the different thermal expansion coefficient of the two metals heating up to 1000° Celsius.
Twin tungsten tubes does seem more likely to me. Perhaps the ends are thickened slightly to allow a jam fit. I’m assuming that tungsten is required either for its temperature tolerance, or because the metal is itself a part of the nucleonic reaction, rather than for shielding (for which any mass would do, so probably a ‘red herring’).
Maybe it’s part of the self sustain mode. A seperate reaction is taking place between the 2 tubes to help supply heat to the larger reaction chamber.
Look a pag. 4, image upper right. You can see two boxes in tha background. One at right is a gloves box. The other contains small sealed bags: the H pills? or the active charges?
See:
h__p://www.bangoalloy.com/Tungsten-Tube/
They look like medical type disposable nose filters to me. They are often available in labs where powders are handled, as a less intrusive alternative to a mask.
Since W (Tungsten)is being used for the shielding it makes sense that the reaction is between the 2 inner cylinders, the external one W and the internal one stainless steel. Rossi says that the fuel is only about 2 grams (versus 20+ for the active ingredient in the report). Would this fit within the inner cylinder sandwich (too hurried to do the calculation).
This definitely seems to be the best working theory. Awesome work guys on dissecting all this information!
Hammerskoj spotted the thin line around the end of the inner tube image, indicating a double wall. Others including myself have just elaborated the idea a bit!
It does look like a pretty good possible explanation of the fuel/donor location, that Rossi, ‘cures’ and even the testers seemed at pains not to identify (in fact there seem to be a few ‘red herrings’ around).
In the last thread, Pekka Janhunen calculated that if the ‘charge’ was 1.5g, a layer less than 10 microns thick would be all that’s needed. It might be a bit more than this if a hydride H2 donor is also present (it must be) either mixed or in another layer, but would still be easily thin enough to fit between two tubes with say 0.2-0.3mm clearance.
Reading through this, you guys have done some awesome remote engineering. It’s a challenge to reverse engineer a device using only photos and snippets of fact.
I would like to hire this team to rev-engineer artifacts found on Mars… If there are any
Found.
It’s probably all a load of cobblers!
From Vortex-1
—–
Cavitation-Induced Fusion: Proof of Concept – Max I. Fomitchev-Zamilov
Cavitation-induced fusion (also known as bubble fusion or sonofusion) has
been a topic of much debate and controversy and is generally (albeit
incorrectly) perceived as unworkable. In this paper we present the
theoretical foundations of cavitation-induced fusion and summarize the
experimental results of the research conducted in the past 20 years. Based
on the systematic study of all available data we conclude that the
cavitation-induced fusion is feasible, doable, and can be used for
commercial power generation. We present the results of our own research
and disclose a
commercial reactor prototype.
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1209/1209.2407.pdf
Hey george, no UFOs and one interesting arxiv article, nice.
How does this differ from Griggs’ Hydro Dynamics cavitation reactor?
http://hydrodynamics.com/technology/
Sterling really took a hit with John Rohner. I really like him as a person and he seemed to be maturing as a journalist with the inteligentry expose. I hope he can focus his oft times suppressed journalistic talent on this story. Frank i really appreciate your service with this website!
Rossi is not moderated, but fr.ud is! and sc.m is!
If you don’t like admins moderation there are plenty of sites out there that would love to have your “valuable” input!
When I said I do not like moderation?
I just reported this two words, so people could word comments more carefully.
You sound a bit hurt.
Auto-moderating the word ‘Rossi’ on a blog about, er, Rossi, would make about as much sense as most of your comments. Just because you would like to scatter the other words around with abandon doesn’t mean that others here want to constantly read them.
Andrea Rossi post-E-Cat-conference interview with Sterling Allan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o-4Ik_1gmU
Andrea Rossi: “I am not strong; I am not intelligent”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rGzaNzAyLc&feature=player_embedded
Rossi has the humility that the wise appreciate and fools ridicule.
Agreed
I thought Rossi looked a little tired. Probably needs a vacation.
Why would Rossi not get a sterling engine and produce electricity from it and use it to show it works in self sustain mode
I know that a 165KW sterling engine is a rather large engine for the 1MW, but scale it down to a managable size as dictated by the size of the engine available
I am sure that the suppliers of the engine would be more than happy to give/lend him a demo unit as it would help their business as well
I was expecting so much from the conference but now am a bit dissapointed we have to wait more months
The complication in that is, though, that one must have some fluid flowing around the hotcat instead of radiation and air cooling. It’s doable, but has he already done so much work without telling anyone. Maybe.
One simple way to do it would be to first reconfigure the hotcat for higher cop by e.g. increasing the amount of powder or adding some thermal insulation (should be OK in the lab if the worst that can happen is that the nickel melts) and then have infrared photovoltaics around the device to gather DC power for driving another unit. Maybe he doesn’t show it yet because running with high enough COP to enable it might in principle be somewhat risky.
There is another small complication, He must have a working device!!!!!
Just a little bump on the road
What’s with the repetitive skepticism? Many of your comments are useful. It’s been noted that you are not 100% convinced, and would like to see a “working device”. What reaction are you not getting that causes you to repeat that information?
Pekka, this IR antenna tech was mentioned at the Zurich Conference:
https://inlportal.inl.gov/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=1555&mode=2&featurestory=DA_144483
Apparently this can be made as a thin film sheet. And the very fast diodes are now available.
GreenWin
In the February Video with Mr. Green it was mentioned that Bill Donovan was looking into direct Electrical conversion from the Beta Decay. Sounded as if The process would be done directly from the inside of the E-cat. Mention of 35% to 40% conversion. Sound quality leaves me uncertain if I’m correct.
The Process was proposed for the Home 10Kw E-cat. A 2 year time frame. Frank posted the video under the Video tab if you wish to watch it.
The Hot Cat is still a prototype in progress.
He’s already working on a new variation of it.
From Oilprice.com in March 29, 2012: http://oilprice.com/Interviews/The-Limitless-Potential-of-the-E-Cat-An-Interview-with-Andrea-Rossi.html
*****
Oilprice.com: Have there been any recent developments you are able to share with us?
Andrea Rossi: We are very close to completing a 1MW plant in the US which will soon be opened to the public.
Oilprice.com: How many 1 MW plants have you currently made and sold?
Andrea Rossi: One 1 MW plant has been made and 13 are under construction. We would like to consolidate the first 14 before expanding. The oak must grow proportionally to the roots, otherwise hostile winds will sweep everything away.
******
Also as I pointed out earlier, Rossi has indicated that a 1MW plant will be delivered in July, to be visitable by the public by invitation after it gets established.
Now we hear of another plant to be established in Northern Italy in a “couple of months.” So we are hearing this story many times now. I know Rossi has been very busy and things change. Perhaps Rossi should clarify the situation. It seems to me it would be in his and his licensee’s best business interest to advertise working 1MW plants.
for news on this plant we must keep an eye on Aldo Proia and Prometeion
Same old story… “Soon”.
Yeah, because we all know how quickly hot fusion is just around the corner.
Your point being? Some insight being offered?
Not easy to know what “self-looped” means, and it’s second or third hand information anyway, but one possibility is that it could mean driving one HotCat with thermal energy taken from another one whose core runs at that moment in self-sustain mode. Not yet an infinite COP standalone demo, but a lengthy leap in that direction.
I don’t understand that over complicated description.
the classic infinite COP can be reached with an electric back feed, like on a nuclear power plan, which use par of the lectricity it produce to run all it’s pump and computers…
another infinite COP is the critical mode, the “self-sustain” like on fission reactor…
feeding one reactor with the heat of another is crazily uselessly complicated… just make self-sustain, maybe controlling cooling and not external warming…
more probable is electric back feed with a stirling/rankine… it would be a definitive proof that LENr work…
Maybe the reason why Rossi does not want it to be public.
Maybe its just a question of fully or partially blanking off the ends of the inner tube in order to force the interior temperature up once the device is running.
Possible also. Implementing moving IR reflectors with closed loop control shouldn’t be too difficult either, if necessary for stability.
There are probably many ways to achieve a continuously self-sustaining mode (if that is what Sterling Allen meant) and I’m sure Rossi must have already tried one or more, and knows which way to go. The need for continuous input (and hence low COP) during testing was one of the compromises forced on him by the SGS tester.
It must also be possible to push up the output considerably by increasing the charge size etc., as you also suggest. In fact this will be essential once power is being extracted by means of a flow of coolant, or by generating steam.
What we’ve seen is just the tip of the iceberg as far as potential is concerned, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Rossi now regrets releasing even this much! I think he might be best served now by focusing on commercialising the 1MW unit, and keeping quiet about hot cat development until he has a product ready for manufacture for the power generation industry.
It this real or a rumor?
If Rossi will show a self sustaining unit, then there is no questions, no need of data, who cares about the input power as at the moment of self_sustaining is zero.
Why will Rossi held a device like this, THIS IS NOT ABOUT CERTIFICATION, is about to prove the customers your product works because your principle is valid.
The more Rossi talks about certification the more doubt gets into me.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again
Einstien said E=MC2
So we know how to extract energy from mass in about
1 millionth of a second. Mushroom Cloud
Now why is it so hard to understand that this energy
can be extracted a little slower?
I see this as inevitable.
Respect
Kim
As long as such a device exist, but at this moment we have no evidence of it, just rumors…..
there is plenty of evidence for it, troll, but you ignore it because you apparently have a sociopathic hatred for Rossi.
Please go troll elsewhere.
This harsh comment made it through the new and improved moderation filter?
How insulting does a post have to be to be rejected?
BW
Harsh maybe, but possibly deserved.
Doubt?? The more Rossi talk about certification the more he will have to do to make it a certifiable product. Something will eventuate from this.
Or just gaining time waiting for celani, to create the real reactor.
Ivan
To much to fast scares people in power. Slow & steady is the course.
Here’s a thought posted on Rossi’s blog
100,000 10Kw cores per day for 23+ years just to replace Coal Powered Plants.
How many years since Poppe Engine?
I will like to see a small device, for Rossi 1kw. with 1.1 overunity.
And I will belive the Terawatts of power are around the corner.
but I only got promises and rumors.
No, you trolls dont care one way or the other.
Please troll somewhere else.
And a signed published report showing a COP over 2
Have you seen the letterhead in the report?
Here is from the report:
E-Cat Certification:
Fabio Penon , M.Eng. (Nuclear Engineer, Product Certification Specialist)
E-Cat Electronic Control System Specialist:
Fulvio Fabiani, M.Eng.
Radiation Protection Report:
David Bianchini, M.Sc (Physicist, Radiation Measurements Specialist).
…..
David Bianchini, M.Sc.
Via Emilia Ponente 375
40132 – Bologna
VAT No. 0137800578
To the kind attention of :
EFA Srl [EFA Ltd.]
Via Marsili 4
40100 Bologna
Tax Code and VAT No. 02826781208
Notice… no Signatures.
Only Bianchini gives is VAT number.
Bianchini test radiation.
The other Guys do not compromise.
This is not a legal document. it is not signed!!!!!
“but I only got promises and rumors.”
Ah, gee, life’s tough, isn’t it?
The best soultion to the problem is to generate electricity from excess heat and use this electricity to power the reaction externally. Integrating a kill switch would be a no brainer.
Exactly.
The best solution is to show the public such a device exist, then people could use it the best way is convinient.
Rossi HAS been showing the public, troll.
“Self-looped is effectively a COP of infinity”… “whereas in a self-looped system, such a rapid shut-off would not be as easy.”
This is starting to sound like a perpetual motion device of never ending energy in “self-sustained” mode. That would be the ultimate outcome.
No, this is not perpetual motion or even “self-sustaining”. This is simply an example of a fuel that will remain ignited under certain conditions until its useful energy has been exhausted. There is no difference between a hot cat “burning” all its working mass via fusion/transmutation and a candle burning until all the wax is gone.
It is better to think of the hot cat as a nuclear candle than as a magical infinite energy machine.
Good answer
Not perpetual motion. Until you run out of fuel motion.
I want to believe…. but
eh! Frank …. that comment got moderated !!!?????
hHhhhahahahha Rooosi is a moderated word!@@
please dont censor me
with plenty of NDA
Hey guys I have a few comments before this one… and they probably dont come up… TPTB… Frank… is censoring the word “Rooosi”… I did a little experiment…
Freedom of speech baby!!
Nothing to do with freedom of speech edog: It’s Franks’blog…. He can do what he wants with it and if you want to make fun of Rossi,not funny anyway,write it on your own blog
Some one wants to ignite a hot cat figth here
I agree – as long as no one is trying to stop you giving your view of Rossi elsewhere Frank is at liberty to moderate this blog how he sees fit and there is nothing wrong in that (unless Frank is claiming he allows all opinions here). It seems to me this blog is about what is happening with Rossi for those who are interested and prepared to give him a hearing.
If you are here reading and giving your opinion you giving the subject a hearing.
The conclusions could be quite different depending of your angle of view. As long as you do not use profane language opinions should be ok. at the end of the day the real possibilities are:
-He has saved the world and we have the miracle ecat LENR
-He did a error in measurements and he just have the Piantelli effect
-He is trying to get money from investors, knowing his device is just a Piantelly device, and needs to buy as much time as possible.
-He have the device but is so scared about competition that will not even show a prototype.
-He do not understand that showing the device it could be patented.
-Eventually investors will demand the product is in the Market otherwise they cannot make money, unless the start selling just sub licences.
-He do not understand the benefits of control device tests, or do not want to used them as will uncover the game
-….etc
I agree with Daniel. There is another place to go for those who just want to make pointless negative comments with no likelihood of moderation.
Admin- we seem to have lost indenting again!
you need to turn from a edog to a pussy_cat
Just testing…
Yep – indenting is not working.
More correctly put…. he is working he licensees
These are all a bunch of bul****s.
As Hydro Fusion has showed to the world (and as Rossi has told to the SAIPEM’s responsible at the Zurich conference), who wants to buy a 1MW plant or to become a licensee, can do all the tests he wants, by himself or by delegating some specialized laboratory (as Hydro Fusion has done).
For the measured preformed on the Hot-Cat by the Swedish laboratory will see soon whether they made some mistake or not.
Or did you think that a subject that invests millions throws his money because of the faith?