An Assumption

Thanks to Astralprojectee for a recent commment here that I think brings up a good point, and reflects the attitude of many people following the E-Cat story. He said:

“I think most of us here are going off of a general assumption that most people don’t lie. This is a general statement of course. But this is generally true. We all interpret what we experience differently but in the end we don’t serial lie and make up things, especially like this. Now the question is, is Rossi a serial liar? I have not found any read flags yet. We all for the most part have good intentions even if we are delusional and out of touch with reality.”

I am assuming that Andrea Rossi is not a serial liar when he reports the things he does about his work and technology. I personally don’t believe he is lying, and admittedly that is a judgment call I make based on evidence that has accumulated over the past couple of years. I suppose it is conceivable that this whole affair could be based on the total fantasy of a delusional person, or a massive scheme of a criminal mind — but based on all I have learned, I don’t see it.

But I think it is important for readers of this site to understand that I am making the assumption that Rossi is reporting substantially accurate things about his technology. He’s certainly not telling us everything he knows, and we are only really getting glimpses about his work from his usually short posts, so there are certainly many unknowns with regard to the E-Cat.

If things change, and information comes forward that causes the whole story to unravel, I will admit that my assumptions were mistaken.

  • captain

    Quoted

    GreenWin on September 27, 2012 at 5:19 am
    It is amusing to watch the same old skeps come here cloaked in a new pseudonym begging for attention and an ear to bend. There is a perverse pessimistic joy sought by this bunch of “skeptics” who refuse to be satisfied preaching to their own choir. So they traipse to Frank’s site tossing bitter-grenades in the hope of souring the positive LENR vibration………………………
    ………………………………

    Call it a job, or a mission or whatever U like, but so it is, unfortunately.

    Hi Green, your description is poetic 🙂

    • GreenWin

      Captain, I rather think of it as an “assignment.” There’s more cloak and dagger to it.

  • Chris

    The whole thing is rather complex, so any attempt to simplify it is out of place. Many considerations are in order, here are a few at the very least:

    Rossi is an entrepreneur; he don’t owe nothing to nobody that ain’t contracted no obligation with him. He is not a scientist, not a researcher, he doesn’t have to follow the standards that many are demanding of him.

    It is still early to demand him to show non-military customers. Even industrial ones wouldn’t have to agree to come out in public with it, they could well prefer to make their investment and, if it works, do no favours to their competitors.

    Prometeon srl has recently postponed its countdown by a good 30 days. I found this slightly suspicious, still there might have been good reasons for it. All I can say about this is: I don’t know.

    Daniel Maris presumably refers to Eddington, but this isn’t a good comparison. Further to what I said about entrepreneur vs. scientific researcher, Eddington was totally independent of Einstein who had no industrial secrets and did not own the sun, moon and stars. We know very little about Domenico Fioravanti (although I don’t get the impression that some impostor was playing in his role).

    Aside from the unknown military customer, we know who Levi is, we know who Focardi is, we know who Piantelli et al. are, we know who Takahishi is and we know who Celani is. We also know who many others are that have reported CF results that aren’t Ni-H and so, all in all and despite controversy among physicists, it seems more a matter of whether Rossi’s claims could be exaggerated than whether they might be false. He just followed up on the work of Piantelli, Focardi et al.

    As for the many nuclear and particle physicists who scoff at the very possibility of these phenomena, they are somewhat barking up the wrong tree. They reason in terms of the phenomena they are familiar with, neglecting complexities introduced by the loaded metallic lattice in which these phenomena are reported to occur.

  • GreenWin

    It is amusing to watch the same old skeps come here cloaked in a new pseudonym begging for attention and an ear to bend. There is a perverse pessimistic joy sought by this bunch of “skeptics” who refuse to be satisfied preaching to their own choir. So they traipse to Frank’s site tossing bitter-grenades in the hope of souring the positive LENR vibration.

    But Frank and the regulars here have heard and seen it all. And tired old claims of ‘extraordinary this and that’ only serve to make the unhappy Grinch, look ever more impoverished of spirit.

    Ing Rossi has an extraordinary team of experts working with him. They have moved the original e-cat from a technical curiosity to the leading product in the LENR revolution. There is a European Union-wide SGS Safety Certificate issued guaranteeing the safe operation of the 1MW e-cat. There are licensees, VC investors, multinational corporations, independent laboratories, government agencies, prestigious universities, and prestigious scientists all at work bringing this extraordinary new technology to the human race.

    It has been proven to work at low power (Celani) and demonstrated at high power (Rossi.) And it is NEEDED to alleviate unnecessary suffering and hardship of billions across the planet. There will always be doubters. Even when presented with the high priest’s demand for “independent verification” (see Blacklight’s CIHT verifications)- there is fear, hatred, misanthropy.

    Those who choose skeptopathy are welcome to wallow in their puddle of misery. The rest of us who are interested in creating a better world with better technologies, will continue to do so, with increasingly positive evidence from increasingly positive testing.

    And in the end the good will win.

    • captain

      Quoting

      GreenWin on September 27, 2012 at 5:19 am

      It is amusing to watch the same old skeps come here cloaked in a new pseudonym begging for attention and an ear to bend. There is a perverse pessimistic joy sought by this bunch of “skeptics” who refuse to be satisfied preaching to their own choir. So they traipse to Frank’s site tossing bitter-grenades in the hope of souring the positive LENR vibration.

      But Frank and the regulars here have heard and seen it all……

      What a pity! Really it’s so.

  • theBuckWheat

    We are beyond the point were assurance of performance no longer can be put forward as a substitute for third party verification of performance.

  • John

    I consider myself a skeptic on this topic, and rely on the phrase “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof”. So far, we haven’t had any. I know that some people here would call me a “pathoskeptic” or “snakes and clowns” (whatever they mean) but all I require is a bunch of people that I trust saying “it works”. That hasn’t happened yet. Should it happen, I will freely return here and say “I was wrong”. Similarly should it be 2-3 years from now and we’re still waiting, I’ll come here and say “I told you”.

    If Rossi has created something unique (and it should be known that Admin here still uses the word “If”) then I guess he is creating buzz by not letting people test it. That is a legitimate marketing technique, I guess. In many ways I just wish I’d found about this “technology” when it was released, rather than 12 months ago.

    • telecommuter

      I could not agree more – extraordinary claims beg for extraordinary evidence. So far, Rossi has provide none.
      He’s saying that the 1MW ecat is available – where is any person/company who has bought one? And, what are the results when they use it?
      At this point, the deduced evidence actually points to there being no ecat commercially available.
      On one hand, who cares? If Rossi never ships unit #1 [of any of his claimed versions], it only affects Rossi and anyone who has invested with him.
      On the other hand, some people, myself included, just can’t ‘get it’ that others appear to have a need to defend their belief in Rossi and the wonderful future it should bring.

      • daniel maris

        Nonsense. Extraordinary claims, don’t require extraordinary proof. It was enough for one fairly simple experiment to be deemed confirmation of Einstein’s revolutionary theories.

        All we require of Rossi is simple proof. He hasn’t provided it yet though he has certainly travelled some of the distance e.g. the SGS safety certificate.

        I think people have given Rossi time because he had the backing of at least three serious Profs at well known unis. He gave demonstrations of his products. He is working with nickel/hydrogen which now seems the most favourable combination. He has produced that safety certificate. He has allowed an independent test (if you assume the Hyrdofusion test was genuine). And the narrative he relates makes basic sense.
        Also, as yet, no one working closely with him has broken ranks (unless you count Hydrofusion, but their statement was somewhat ambiguous).

        • clovis

          Come, on guys.
          You sound like a broken record.
          (All we require of Rossi is simple proof. He hasn’t provided it yet) just pick up the phone and call MIT and ask about their lenr project. or maybe the university of missouri .
          THE TIDE IS TURNING.

          • telecommuter

            Technical feasibility is different from a commercial product.
            Hot fusion is technically feasible.

    • Sandy

      John:

      Now that Francesco Celani has publicly demonstrated a working LENR device, I am more inclined to believe that Dr. Rossi is telling us the truth about his E-Cat and his Hot Cat.

    • http://www.buildecat.com LCD

      John you are not a pathoskept. You are a healthy skeptic.

      I will say this. Proof in amy form of an extraordinary claim is itself extraordinary.