Here’s an interesting exchange from Andrea Rossi’s Journal of Nuclear Physics:
Dear dr. Rossi,
last few months I carry in my mind this question:a) A sum of output energy from E-Cat is equivalent to sum of all transmuted materials plus all energy inputs ?
or
b) A sum of output energy from E-Cat is many times bigger then equivalent of all transmuted materials (in fuel) plus all energy inputs ?I have this heretic hypothesis, that b) is in order.
Dear Guru:
b) is better.
Warm Regards,.
A.R.
There has been a lot of speculation on the theoretical basis of LENR reactions — different theories have been proposed. Andrea Rossi rarely discusses his theory behind the operations of the E-Cat, often saying that he will only make his theory public once patents have been secured. He has said however that through the years that he has been working on his discovery that he feels they now have a good understanding of what is going on — and that his understanding has changed over time. In fact, he says the ability to produced the high heat of the ‘hot cats’ came about because of a new level of understanding. Now he suggests that more than transmutation accounts for the energy produced in the reaction.
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I tried searching on the words “heretic hypothesis” and I tried on “Guru” but neither gave any results.
???
Anyways this would be the wierdest of Rossi’s claims. As for “his theory” he is definitely not a physicist, nuclear or what, so I don’t know what kind of theory he might have unless it is Focardi, Levi and co. that are actually working on it.
Sorry, Chris — my fault. Here’s the link: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=695#comments
For those enjoying the technicalities of Cold Fusion, Defkalion are answering some of those questions at —-
http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/search.php?search_id=active_topics
Wonderful Day, one day nearer clean water for the World.
But very slowly, as Cold Fusion, now proven beyond dispute is denied by much of science for reasons, none of which can be justified in any caring society.
Will things change?
Dear posters, for those of you NOT misspelling on purpose to make yourselves appear foreign – there’s a wonderful new application called tinySPELL. It is small, in size and will check any Windows app. The amazing thing is how quickly you become a good speller by correcting your misspelled words!!
Remember, a good teacher sets a good example:)
HERE’s the link – it’s FREE:
http://tinyspell.numerit.com/
Vhat leenck?
Juar, juar…
Mglphhh!!
Perhaps it will allways remain a mystery like wave particle duality . Quantum physics is inherently couterintuitive
We have been peering at the quantum world through a keyhole in the door for many years, maybe this is a “foot in the door”
Cures is talking again.
Cures: August 19, 2012, 8:15 am.
Diagram of Ragone
On another note, when you do a measure to a potential client, you have to force involved in all phases. Therefore prepared a procedure for measuring the much detail as possible, describing also how it is made the object of the measure, and gave it to mark it, well in advance, for any changes. And since the people are invited to a high standard and therefore not available by age and role to participate in the test for hours or days, to allow them to carry around, if they believe, some vicar who is unable to attend on their behalf until the end of the test, which will last a long time because it comes to measuring an excess of energy, as well as power and other quantities
The instrumental data you need to register them automatically or, if not possible, the equipment must be visible so that the data can be entered by anyone. At the end of the test wait for the unit to cool and disassemble to check and make sure that the components are those described in the procedure.
The questions to which you must answer is simple: it is a scam or is it really something new? In this reply with the measure that you return the coordinates in the Ragone diagram that tell you if the source is unknown or not conventional. Established that it is not a rip-off, the next question is: how much gain in power and what is the excess energy? And this is given by the calculated values.
The final report must be sent to the guests with all the instrumental recordings and manual and all the data extracted, so that recipients can make up the calculations and confirm, reject or amend the report’s conclusions
At this stage it does not matter the physical mechanism underlying the generation of excess power and energy. Or, as seems Lmwillys, scrub UNCA because the purpose of the measure is another.
They will then groups of theoretical physicists who later will result in street brawls in an attempt to explain the mechanism behind the phenomenon.
For example, in the now famous picture, the central tube is a through hole and the white heat. If the photo had been in line we would have seen the opposite wall. He was born a debate on how to calculate the energy delivered from the walls of the inner tube that has generated some integral still “dancing”.
Horrible translation. If Cures, much was lost in the translation. The focus is wrong. The scientist mind functions a lot more sophisticated.
Very rough revision of first parts [I am later]:
From other side, when you do a measure for a potential buyer, he have to be involved in all phases of [test]. Therefore your procedure must considers for much detail as possible, and so you must describing to the client the entire experimental set-up and ask him well in advance if he agree [and - if not - you must accept all the changes he propose]. And since many times the invited people are the very boss and therefore are not willing by age and importance to wait for hours or days in your facility, you must allow them to ask over, if they like, some vicar, which attend on their behalf to the test until it ends. Very oft it last a long time because it comes to measuring excess of energy, as well as power and other [boring] quantities…
Er… a link to the original?
Sorry, I thought I put it in there.
http://www.cobraf.com/forum/postsbyauthor.php?authorid=3233
Scoll down a bit.
Rossi Needs a Domestic e-Cat product to Market ASAP. Here is why !!!
”The recent history has been that the world is moving away from carbon taxes,” ”The US has said No, Canada voted decisively against a carbon tax, Japan has deferred indefinitely, [South] Korea has put back its scheme and a global agreement has been deferred to 2020. The world is adopting anything but the Australian approach.”
http://www.smh.com.au/national/cause-for-optimism-on-global-warming-20120820-24iml.html
Australia is being financially burdened with a Carbon Tax. If the e-Cat hit the market, it would produce jobs, cut carbon emissions potentially reversing the Gov’t carbon tax & save people money on a new clean affordable energy !!! The World Needs Rossi Now !!!
Looking forward to Rossi’s September Publication & *Fingers Crossed* my purchase of a Domestic e-Cat in 2012.
Good points. Carbon taxes were doomed from the start because the carbon pollution science was so flimsy. But, with an extraordinary solution in hand, domestic and industrial heat sources can convert to zero emission, non-radiative, abundant LENR. CO2 is a minor problem compared to the mass-ignorance of mainstream science. aka HISS.
Should the carbon tax be declared obsolete because of LENR the politicians will have to tax the internet to support their life styles and social engineering programs. We may regret what we wish for.
I’m not sure there is any linear connection, but LENR is set to mop up any and all incentives made available by gov’ts for ‘clean energy’. The entire wind and solar industry would be out of the game almost immediately and under the existing schema gov’ts would be forced to pay for the introduction of cold fusion!
You mean they would actually DO something in the best interest??
As with any new major breakthrough it’s not the foreseeable gains and benifits that impact us most, it’s usually some unseen benifit. I think LENR is the tip of an iceberg of a whole new branch of science.
Of course !
I think you have it! Things could get very exciting.
I think people tend to get caught up in the details and controversy and overlook the potential for finding a completely new perspective on “science”.
Some of the best solutions are found by accident.
Good point! Who knows what’s going on in there and what can be done with it?
And the mystery goes on. Latest on his blog:
“Dear Robyn Wyrick:
Actually, our Effect has nothing to do with what Fleishmann and Pons made, but they ignited the research in this field with their work. This is their merit.
Warm Regards,”
In one sense (Ni/H) that’s true. On the other hand, it is in opposition to some of the speculation recently that began to wonder if the Ni provided an environment for H/H to occur.
Yet another mysterious and possibly misleading comment
Hi, Tim.
Am i reading this wrong or did you just say that all other lenr configrations that do not have h2 Ni catalyst, are different and there for fair game
Clovis, I’m just noting another pointer from Rossi, and trying (without any success) to see where it slots in to what I thought I knew about the ‘Rossi effect’. He says ‘Nothing to do with F&P ‘ that’s pretty definite. Does he just mean Ni+H is ‘nothing to do with F&P’ or is he trying to draw an even bigger distinction?
Also, this points in the opposite direction to some of the recent speculation that Ni just provided a matrix fro H+H to occur in…
Yes, I’m bemused by that comment also. Rossi might as well say that the ecat evolution has nothing to do with Prof Focardi. That would be wrong.
Hi, ya’ll
If I were to venture a guess i would say that transmutation was only one part of the hole effect and because of the fusion of the ni and h2 or whatever,
and because of this reaction an added proton enters the mix possibly from the o-point and that is where the extra energy comes from, and i think Mr Rossie is now coming around to the idea that transmutation is not all that is going on, and at this point if were betting on that ventured guess, i would most likely lose my shirt.–smile it’s a whole new world out, and Andrea Rossie alone is the lead pathfinder…..–
Why is so much focus on the theoretical issues ? More important just now is to get the technology working for the good of mankind !
Johan, Associate professor, Orebro university, Sweden
you speak so strange for a professor ?
are you working for industry ?
are you a time traveler of 19th century ?
You are not a scientist ?
You work in epistemology or history ?
Really you look … rational.
note that fire, plane, steam engine, xray-machine, semiconductors, would have been ignored if people were thinking like today.
Alain, please explain your view a little more.
Johan, simply said, “Why is so much focus on the theoretical issues ? More important just now is to get the technology working for the good of mankind !”.
–Why would you say he was not a scientist.
–Why would caring more about Humanity and not academic learning at this early stage leave him open to the apparent insults you have made.
Irony. A compliment to that comment, and a harsh critic on mainstream behavior.
Scientist as you hear in the mainstream, or claimed as such, have a tendency today to refuse facts if they cannot build a theory first to explain their results. Some more open accept innovative theories, but most refuse to wait before proposing a theory.
Even in LENR domain, I’m shocked how theory fill so much content in papers, compared to data and phenomenological content. The 3 law of Mizuno on the opposite are an example of good method, after gathering data. To try to find regularities, and like old astronomers to write laws like Keppler areas law. then you can call Newton or Einstein at the end, to solve the equation.
In the old time, in engineerings, there is/was a different way of mind, trying first to accumulate data, develop usability, and by the way try to build a phenomenological model, that with centuries can became nearly coherent with core physic.
The worst is that it seems possible/probable that unlike what many imagined, LENR will not disintegrate QM reference frame, just open our mind on the complexity of lattice, fractal or surface collective effects in QM framework.
If Johan is really a scientist, he might be wiser than many…
I don’t say that theory is useless (As an engineer I know that in theory practice is enough, but in practice, theory helps much), but that it came after phenomenological model, which came after data.
Our century have make big progress because in many case the theory could orientate the research to find quickly good optimal solutions, but we seems now to refuse to work in the old way, without theory, as if we were ignoring centuries of history, of epistemology, of engineering.
Alain, thank you, but Johan in no way indicated that he disagreed with you.
He just made the very reasonable statement that freeing Cold Fusion was more important then fully knowing the science.
A view that would seem most scientific to many people.
To disagree with him you must state that Cold Fusion should remain hidden until a fully excepted theory is worked out.
sorry George, I’m not clear, and too complex in a language I don’t master totally…
I agree with Johan. I estimate his remarks, and agree too with you…
we agree.
Anyway theory would be nice (and fun), useful, but not a priority… first facts, second phenomenological laws, then theory.
And application as soon as possible…
Alain, sorry about the language difficulty.
Every scientist has the chance to disagree with their establishment when it is clearly in error and if they do should be protected.
Have read many of your good comments.
Thanks.
Johan, are you agreeing that main-line science has made terrible and incompetent mistakes in it’s handling of Cold Fusion from the time of P&F.
Hi, ya’ll
If I were to venture a guess i’v always thought that transmutation was only one part of the hole and because of the fusion of the ni and h2 or whatever,
and because of this reaction an added proton enters the mix and that is where the extra energy comes from, and i think Mr Rossie is now coming around to the idea that transmutation is not all that is going on, it’s a whole new world out, and he alone is the lead pathfinder…..–
ooops
Stop guessing, do something good for mankind, like Rossi !
Let me conclude this thread discussion with:
“It is more blessed to give, than to receive”.
Not just money, more important is to give, tolerance, honesty, Truth.
Money does, but should not run the World, only by every person improving their Wisdom and Humanity will the Future become the Wonderful place for our children that it can and should be.
I’ll tell you what is probably going on here. According to Mark LeCLAIR it’s all cavitation. Which produces supernovas and fusion and fussion. When at least in his cold fusion cavitation experiments. He insists that this is what is going on in cold fusion LENR.
Just calm down. First, build the devices that can serve mankind. Then, sort out thr theory, it shouldn’t be too difficult. Engineers have invented practically everything and scientists have been running behind trying to explain….
I agree. Edison first.
Perhaps it’s the asymmetric magnetism that Dr. Ahern mentioned some time back. If so, it would be interesting to see the patent fight between Rossi and Steorn, which based their Orbo solid state heat production technology (now known as HephaHeat) upon the action of asymmetric magnetic fields.
I’m sorry for being behind the times here, but I thought the E-Cat was at least descendent from the Pons/Fleischmann Effect.
On this website (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/08/robert-duncan-at-niweek/) the article refers to “talking unashamedly about the Pons and Fleischmann effect”.
And NI Week had an “Experts Panel Discussion – Quest for Alternative Energy: Anomalous Heat Effect (AKA Cold Fusion).”
And listening to a video of Francesco Celani I thought we were still talking about systems that derived (and improved from) Fleischmann/Pons.
But in an exchange in JONP, Mr. Rossi had this to say.
“Actually, our Effect has nothing to do with what Fleishmann and Pons made, but they ignited the research in this field with their work. This is their merit.
Warm Regards,
A.R.”
So can someone clarify for me: from what has been revealed so far about the E-Cat, how related is it to the Pons/Fleischmann effect?
Are we talking “derived” like an F16 is derived from the Wright Brothers first plane?
Or is this more like “nothing to do with” like an F16 has nothing to do with a hot air balloon?
And irrespective of the E-Cat, do the other devices derive from Pons/Fleischmann?
(or you could just answer: “Why am I so confused?”)
Thanks in advance.
In as much as the observed LENR AHE show up in metal lattice systems loaded with hydrogen (both electrochemical F&P-type, or gas loaded Rossi-type)- Fleischmann and Pons started the ball rolling. They are and should be recognized as the “parents” of cold fusion.
i can answer thatsimply by saying i think rossi has no clue what hessaying because nobody ever figured out wht caused the f&p effect. unless he knows and he has compared it to is which i seriously doubt. i think rossi is a bit irresponsible here.
True and false.
F&P launched the idea that heat and nuclear reaction was possible while loading deuterium into palladium in an electrolysis context.
They thus launched the idea that loading hydrogen isotope like deuterium into a transition metal like paladium, excitating it like with electrolysis you could expect nuclear reaction and heat, with less radiation…
In a way, recent LENR, NiH with gas phase, high temperature, and some electric excitation, is similar.
But most of the Cold Fusion researchers looked more strictly in PdD electrolysis cell.
The few who did not, are NASA GRC who tested few metals, with different hydrogen isotopes…
Then few researchers like Piantelli, then Celani, Focardi…
So Rossi is not wrong, because his NiH reactor is not the classic PdD electrolysis of F&P.
Thermal excitation of LENR, and gas phase, is a key factor since it allows thermal energy recycling thus increasing the COP, and high temperature allow electricity production even if the COP is not gigantic. This is THE breakthrough.
Finally Nickel low price make it much more disruptive for economy than precious palladium. Deuterium is less precious, but 1Hydrogen is really cheap (event if purifying it from deuterium is not free).
But, “nothing to dp with the f&p effect” is ridiculous.
Although I agree with you if he had said it was different than what f&p “hoped” I it was.
Interesting paper:
“Stability of a hydrogen molecule in a vacancy of palladium hydrides”
J.H. Hea, L.F. Dechiaro, D.L. Knies, G.K. Hubler, K.S. Grabowski, A.E. Moser, D.D. Dominguez, D.A. Kidwell, P.L. Hagelstein
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319912011780
quote from the abstract
“Our calculations suggest that the loading ratio of hydrogen in palladium has a significant effect on the stability of the H2 molecule in the vacancy.”
Unstable hydrogen, oh my!
All,
Rossi is right, there are more than transmutations taking place. The initial sudden burst of energy is Hawking Radiation released as the Hydrogen collapses to an ultradense micro-black hole of collapsed matter at/around 22 micrograms. After that it starts shredding atoms around it, triggering fission, fusion and chemical events. It does this by concentrating blue-shifted energy from incoming radiation at its surface helped by quantum scale gravity. It releases red-shifted low energy radiation to the outside observer. It is all in my blog and based upon known science and I make some additional predictions, some good, some bad.
http://wp.me/p26aeb-4 (WordPress Blog)
what stops it from growing and becoming a big black hole. how does it seem to violate the pauly exclusion principle?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation
According to the reference on Hawking radiation (above), a Planck Mass Black hole of 22 micrograms (which is a lot of atoms) would decay/explode in only 8.67*10^-40 seconds. Not even a twinkling of an eye. It would disappears almost instantly, if it forms at all. I don’t know how many micro Black holes would have to be formed and to dissipate in order to produce 43,200 kW-Hrs (10 kW for 180 days). And wouldn’t it take just as much energy to create the black hole as would be produced when it decays?
I like an idea proposed by someone, (I apologize I can’t remember who said this), that an electron (or multiple electrons) gets somewhere it doesn’t belong and gets squeezed out of existence. That is, the electrons disintegrate. That seems crazy enough to be possible. I never saw this idea mentioned before, which doesn’t mean it is possible, but I don’t know that it is impossible.
Joseph I simply think its a multibody nuclear reaction of some sort that avoids high energy single particles.
But I agree with you joseph. No disrespect to the proponent of the idea but it needs to address some basic things first. And this person may have something but it needs to be better explained
Just one micro black hole would need to be formed. They do not evaporate instantly, just like the ones in space do not. Perfect quantum heat engine if controlled.
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1201.3208v2.pdf
http://wp.me/p26aeb-4 (WordPress Blog)
One microblack hole would take much more free energy than available in many grams of Ni+H. You would first need many nuclear reactions to even free up that much energy. If you are already getting those then why bother with the black hole.
BLP has claimed for a while now they have observed fractional H (i.e. lower ground state, aka ‘zero point energy’?). BLP also have very positive remarks and observations from respected institutions / people. I believe even Brillouin states something similar to fractional H. As the electron comes closer to the nucleus, it releases energy.
After Rossi I had my hopes on BLP (Dr. Mills) but lately it has been surprisingly quiet on their part.
They had a somewhat recent update earlier this year:
http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/
Still, no updates since then. And, excess energy stated in those validations are very small, though apparently consensus it is not chemical.
chuck, there’s a difference between ZPoint energy and Dr. Mills’ hydrino transition energy. Mills has 6 separate third party confirmations of his CIHT cell. The opportunity for these outputs (verified in mW) to scale up by orders of magnitude is great. ZPoint is a rough reference to virtual or Dirac space energy residing within the vacuum.
Dr. Mills, has produced a working electro-chemical cell (fuel cell) whose only “fuel” is plain water. The cell uses its own energy to recover spent catalyst chemistry to make a closed loop system. We will shortly discover that LENR reactions similarly cause the H1 atom to shrink to a fractional state – either stable (Mills) or unstable (DGT).
Discovering and working with this hydrino hydrogen atom is at the heart of new energy science. However, we will also be uncovering new ways to view electromagnetism and gravity which can also generate energy from “the vacuum.” Check out Dr. Henry H. Wienberger’s (Cal Tech Chem Engineering) validation:
http://www.blacklightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/WeinbergReport.pdf
I read mills theory and the challenge to the theory. So far the challenge was a clear winner. If mills believes the hydrogen atom can only shrink via a phonon energy transfer to another system/atom capable of receiving it then hes got to show the math that goes with it. So far he has not. His proposed wavefunction cant even predict the *known* hydrogen energy levels.
He may have some empirical evidence suggesting something is indeed happening but he hasn’t connectednitnwith reality yet.
lcd, would you show us your math disproving Dr. Mills? And if you don’t mind, your professional or academic experience with nucleonics. You apparently disagree with the CIHT data and the five other independent verifications of its operation.
From your comment, it is plain to see how Rossi validations will be treated by the HISS. Fortunately, lowly bloggers don’t amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world.
Green I don’t dispute the data per say, i dispute Mills interpretation of it.
Both answers had word transmutation, and English is confusing to AR at times.
(LENR devices cannot create atomic explosions, but that would be like saying
a) would your old LENR device be more capable of destroying the world in an explosion?
or
b) would your newer LENR device be more capable of destroying the world with an explosion?
He is given two questions with wrong answers to choose from. So if he picks either you could write an article about how a Rossi device could blow up and dstroy the world which is also not true.
Has Rossi said lately that transmutation does occur?
p.s. LENR is safe and can blow up a radiator but not a nuclear explosion.
Celeni’s patent for providing silicon monoxide layers
to nickel surfaces is now available.
This means that sheets or tubes can be acitivated.
The nano layer deposition of silicon monoxide increase
the absorbtion of hydrogen to about 0.7
When Energy is applied to the metals the reactions
begin at certain thresholds and ignite.
Then have to be maintained periodically.
Respect
Kim
I guess now McKubre can try for himself. He expressed some doubts about Celani experiment as per Jed Rothwell.
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg69528.html
The production and deposition
of the silicon monoxide takes
a lot of experiential knowledge
and specialized equipment.
We need to get it into a “Recipe”
that can be performed with common
materials and hardware for garage
type aficionados.
Respect
Kim
Mr. Rossi’s sayings became more and more fantastic. If you question him to mark an answer palette he will mark the most misleading.
That’s what is fun about this story. By the time Rossi has to deliver or defend what he is saying it will be for sure a game changer either in energy field or in sociology field.
How can the ecat be accepted without a clear theory what is happening? How could some othoroties accept it if he can not guarantee that he can control the process and nothing unexpected happens?
It’s the way with transformative discoveries. Was electricity accepted and used before there was a clear theory? Yes.
You could probably argue that science still doesn’t know what an electron is, yet we use it everyday.
If the e-cat is a device which can heatup to about 1250 – 1300C and melts at higher temperatures, than it is not a very dangerous apparatus. Don’t know if explosions are possible, but as I understand it that cannot happen. Compared to a welding machine for instance, I’d say both are probably equally dangerous.
However, to rule out unexpected things you would need certification which is what’s happening right now.
Nice handle Zed… Hopefully from the books not the show..
Yep, the great books from Goodkind came first. Well done show but with the Mother confessor and that Mord-Sith looking as do, for me they cannot really go wrong
Some serious deviations from the books though. Shame they made only 2 seasons…
(Actually it’s Zeddicus Zu’l Zorander but I forgot the apostrof)
Never much liked the show. Seemed way to childish/sensored compaired to the books. Game of thrones on the other hand is very close to the books.
Inge, Blacklight Power BLP has six unimpeachable verifications of its CIHT cell that produces electricity using only water as fuel. Mills’ theory is utterly rejected by mainstream science. But he has irrefutable proof of the theory and a working device. Still he gets trouble from patent office, disbelief from “science,” and no publicly implemented use of his technology (i.e. not in open.)
This is known as HISS – Head in Sand Syndrome.
–or alternatively, the HUA Syndrome.
HISS is Step One, HUA is Step Two. As they say, “One step at a time.”
Inge Bolin
Part of what you say is valid. UL certification is waiting on Data collected from the Industrial units for the safety certification.
Rossi has a theory, but it’s not yet a proven theory & because of this he can’t Guarantee that nothing unexpected can happen. Thou his System is designed to shut down in a Micro-second should something go wrong, they ask what if something happens in less then a Micro-second.
A 1Mw E-cat could provide the data within a year. A second would probably provide more then enough data. They may get certification by mid 2013 for the 10Kw Home E-cat. Unless the run-time data turns up a problem.
I don’t believe till I see and touch it!
Please don’t touch it, it’s really, really hot :<
Really? So if 10 Million people have these and attest they perform as claimed, you would still not believe based on the reasoning you have not seen or touched one?
Yikes, you are hard core dude!
Celani had his patent application published describing the surface treatment he uses to activate his wires. Thus he is the first to describe completely how to make a LENR catalyst that can be gas loaded, generates high power per weight of catalyst, at elevated temperatures, and does not require an external heat source to work when it is insulated. What is interesting is that his treatment is designed to be stable to at least 900 C, so we should not be surprised if he starts going to much higher elevated temperatures in his demonstrations. The patent application claims the treatment works on sheets, not just wire surfaces. Thus we have a means now converting nickel or nickel alloy tubes, or even copper or stainless steel tubes, with nickel or nickel alloy plated on the inside surface, with the surface treated per his method, that can be capped on the ends and pressurized with hydrogen, for use as LENR active fuel rods for all kinds of designs of reactors.
How long will it take people to start making their own kilowatt reactors for generating steam using a lawnmower piston engine converted to steam, turning an automotive alternator with field voltage control to make current for a DC to 120 VAC inverter, to provide power for their house or whatever?
I expect to see it happen before the end of the year.
It is application number 20120134915, “THIN NANO STRUCTURED LAYERS WITH HIGH CATALYTIC ACTIVITY ON NICKEL OR NICKEL ALLOY SURFACES AND PROCESS FOR THEIR PREPARATION “.
LENR power system progress should be much more rapid now that every person in the world can make their own LENR catalyst.
Thank you Celani!
the patent tells only a part of the story
His papers tell all of it.
Patents describe procedures and make claims, but the layman typically needs more background information to understand them, so you make a good point. Will most people need more information to make LENR catalyst? Depends on what other experiences and knowledge they can bring to the task. Here is a start to help those interested. An article about silicon sol gels that help bridge the gap between the Celani patent application, and being able to actually make the surface he is talking about in the application that can be used to make LENR catalyst.
http://www.canli.dicp.ac.cn/Gruop%20Seminars%20Pdf/20120512-xbli.pdf
As always, I suggest any person interested download this kind of information and save it to a file on their own computer, then copy it to a flash memory stick.
I will be posting complete articles at my web site, and already have all needed information on memory sticks, and printed out as hard copy, to make LENR catalyst using procedures that can be followed by any person no matter what their background or knowledge level about cold fusion.
There have been too many instances over the years where readily available useful information suddenly becomes very difficult to locate on the Internet, concerning many subjects, not just energy related. Time to make it impossible for advanced technology development to be stopped again.
No doubt those who really founded modern science were usually those whose love of truth exceeded their love of power.
C. S. Lewis
The Abolition of Man
LENR fuel rods would be reasonable goals for fission reactors. Though the materials in and around fission are contaminated – converting to LENR would end the radioactive waste issue.
Robert, you seem knowledgeable enough to try this. When will you try?
Robert,
everytime you comment… you make me hopefull
Isn’t it clear to you that Robert is no one else than Dr. Sam Beckett???
Clearly he is Rodney McKay… definantly not Samantha Carter…
Hopefully Alexander…
…Gordian
Didn’t you guys know Robert is actually Stanley Pons?
We need some peer reviewed proof.
And his study of hot fusion “Kapp’s Last Tape” is a seminal work in particle physics.
This is a confirmation that the e-cat process consists of more then one transmutation, a serial set of transmutations in a sequence.
Maybe You are right, however this is NOT 100,00 % confirmation that all of energy excess is due to series (multistages) of transmutations.
Brian Ahern has his different explanation and HephaHeat is evidence that something very different may be in duty.
nothing Rossi says is confirmation of anything, Wait for real evidence.
bit of a stretch isn’t it?
I think this is simply confirmation that the process is hydrogen-hydrogen fusion (not nickel-hydrogen fusion), and transmutations are a rare but occasional byproduct as predicted by theory.
Ged,
P + P > D + positron + neutrino + 0.42MeV
Did they ever find gamma rays associated with a positron electron annihilation?
electron + positron → 2 gamma + 1.02 MeV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton%E2%80%93proton_chain_reaction
Fioravanti has returned on the Cobraf forum (so Rossi hasn’t disposed of his corpse in a 1200° furnace), in one of his last post he describes how a testing procedure works for an important client. The description is consistent with the little we know about the report to be published in semptember. So it seems we can expect something along these lines:
“[...] when you do a measure for a potential client, you are forced to involve him in all phases. Therefore you prepare a procedure for measuring with as much detail as possible, describing also how the object of the measure is made, and you give it to him, well in advance, for any changes. And since the invited people are of high standard and therefore not available because of age and their role to participate in a test for hours or days, you allow them to bring with them, if they believe, some assistant who is able to attend on their behalf until the end of the test, which will last a long time because it comes to measuring an excess of energy, as well as power and other quantities. The instrumental data: you need to register them automatically or, if not possible, the equipment must be visible so that the data can be entered by anyone. At the end of the test you wait for the unit to cool and then disassemble to check and make sure that the components are those described in the procedure. [...] The final report must be sent to the guests with all the instrumental and manual recordings and all the data extracted, so that recipients can make up the calculations and confirm, reject or amend the report’s conclusions. [...]”
http://www.cobraf.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=5747&reply_id=123483840#123483840
Maybe nickel causes hydrogen (protium) fusion into helium, by a catalytic set of reactions involving proton absorption, alpha emission and (typically) beta decay. In that kind of reaction cycles, the original nickel is partly although not fully recovered and the main energy output may come from hydrogen fusion. That could explain the extreme energy efficiency claims (6 months at 10 kW with only 1.5 grams of nickel) and it would be in harmony with this reply.
Pekka what did you think of the RHS concept of DGT with the “elliptical orbits” that get so close it becomes a “masked neutron”
It didn’t ring a bell, but I should learn about the subject before saying more. Except that their quoted time constant (was it 1e-13 s) for electron being close to nucleus sounds quite long in comparison to typical electron speed and timescales.
I don’t by that theory. I’d need to see examples where it occurs in other areas of nature, as I have yet to see where electrons can make a proton act as a neutron.
Robert knows the study confirming the pseudo-neutron. I read it and forgot who the authors were.
Like femptoseconds right. Suggesting multiplen*orbits* where its stable maybe. I don’t knownits strange for sure. But did we expect straight forward?
Not that I subscribe to it but it has the potential if true of connecting mills’ hydrinos with lenr. If not his theory at least his spectroscopic data suggesting alternate energy levels for hydrogen.
I find this a singularly opaque conversation between Guru and Rossi. Guru does not express himself very clearly, and Rossi replies what ‘is better’, not necessarily what is. The conversation is highly ambiguous.
I’m afraid all I took away was a shrug of the shoulders and a mild ‘watch this space’ type of feeling….
Probably He want told that not “many times” only “few times”
For this purpose word “better” is proper word.
I am Guru and here I must post under other names because I was here banned or every time censored or whatever.
[ started comment here, but deleted it ]
Maby mutaties +(hydrionen Blacklight Power)(b)
ZPE at work in Rossi e-cat ?
Mark my words – Rossi (and others) will now adopt or suggest the hydrogen-fusion model articulated in the NI paper (see page 25). There is no metal-metal fusion in these reactions; indeed, the NI paper mentions “fission.”
Yep, looks like it. That’s what all theory suggests. The “fission” I guess would be from the occasional metal transmutations that are expected to occur (and experimentally seen). Gotta love our Bose-Einstine condensates!
One question then is why haven’t any of the more recent researchers like Rossi reported a change in the hydrogen supplied to the LENR, such as a hydrogen loss? We know a lot about hydrogen and its handling, and so it would be easy to detect its consumption in a LENR device.
I think something may be happening in these “LENR” reactions – but watch as the current LENR promoters quickly modify their findings to match the theory du jour (i.e., hydrogen fusion).
Wrong post
Mr Rossi has given a wry response, of course b) is better, doesnt mean that he thinks it is the case.
B) means the hydrogen is fusing with hydrogen, instead of transmuting nickel into copper, as the energy source. This is what we have expected all along.
Yeah but that would still be transmutation technically.
Im not sure that ‘more than transmutations’ is meaningfully different than ‘not exactly fusion’
did the poster mean not just nuclear mass to energy?
Of course more than just transmutations — chemical metal hydride that burns up the inputs in a few hours.
Where’s the two week independent tests?
The knowledge of one man does not help or bring joy to others, unless is shared. Since this theoretic knowledge is not shared, what joy this news bring to us?
Rossi’s joy will be shared with U and others ASAP E-Cat patents will be granted to him.
This reply is surely better:
Rossi has a very personal joy in having invented somethig absolutely very important for the whole world, thru his hard job and his own money ONLY!
Surely he doesn’t have a joy thinking about all the taxpayars’ money wasted thru researches that have practically concluded NOTHING!
Thinking U that he should share his invention to the whole world for FREE, U’re saying that he has to be stupid.
Really I don’t understand U.
You don’t understand me? Then you never gave charity in your life.
Did you ever see suffering that you had the power to stop? What was your move? Stop or let the suffering continue?
I know why you understand Rossi’s money equation, it is because you don’t understand something else than money.
Hey folks,
Let’s take it down a notch, okay?
I’m all for charity and helping the world is great but we don’t live in a movie. Please tell me why Rossi shouldn’t reap the windfall of his hard work and good fortune? It’s like winning the lottery and people telling you to donate it ALL to charity, you or I would never do that so why are so many people putting these expectations on him? He said he would release full details when the patents are approved. Want to get mad? Call the patent office.
Perhaps arrogant would be a better descriptor for Rossi. He is, like all of us, standing on the shoulders of giants in regards to the physics and mathematics.
There are a lot of what ifs in this case. Let’s say by disclosing the theory he gives away all that is needed to duplicate the ecat… If this is the case, he should at the very least have a set of trusted individuals ready to publish the theory if he meets an untimely demise… I can’t think of no other inustice than this knowledge being lost due to the necessity to profit from it.
Whatever you think of him, he might just be the person with the right type of personality and temperament to push CF through to the marketplace.
Jon
According to Cures, There is 1 other person who can build the E-cat Should something happen to Rossi.
Just 2 people? That makes me feel very uneasy. I hope there is some kind of recorded backup.
It brings the joy of discussion. Thinking about the possibilities of a new technology. It obviously doesn’t bring joy to you, so why comment at all? Unless you just like to be negative?
To me personally it’s very intriguing what’s going on with the whole LENR thing. And if Rossi and Co. have figured out what is happening inside the reactor, possibly he has a big advantage over the rest of the field making his claims slightly more believable.
I suspect his understanding has allowed him to run the reactor at 1200C where the COP seems to be much higher and the fuel consumption much lower.
I’d love to hear what he has found, but will possibly have to wait till September or October when the third party validation reports come out.
Well put ZZZ. I don’t have the science background that many have on this site. I’ve learned a lot from the sidelines, but the historical story of CF and how it can change the world is beyond facination.
Joy also comes from appreciation (understanding, increasing one’s valuation of) of what is real.
Rossi’s behavior is real.
While selflessness is a beautiful ideal, it’s difficult to spend your life energy on intellectual property and then give it away with no thought of personal sustenance.
That can be personally tested by anyone.
dragonX, do U know what stands for USPTO?
- what is a brevet?
- what is a patent?
- what stands for IP?
What would be the world without patents and brevets?
Why are we waiting so long foe seeing Rossi’s invention patented? breveted? UL worldwide certified?
And what’s the actual USPTO behavior vs the LENR, mainly vs an invention not coming directly from a US gov.t.l institution and/or supported by taxpayers’ money?
Are U sleeping? I dunno. It’s time to wake up!