E-Cats Large and Small

Andrea Rossi is all over the map now with his E-Cat plans. We have been learning about plans for barrel-sized 1 MW plants; now there’s something else in the works. Rossi said yesterday, “We will test soon reactors very small (2-300 watts of power). For the future, not for short term sales.” He clarified later that he meant 200-300 W.

I’m not sure what the best applications would be for 200-300 watts of heat — but there are plenty of electronic devices that could use those kinds of power levels. Of course in that case you would have to find a very efficient way to convert the heat to electricity, and it would have to be direct conversion to make sense at those levels. Leonardo is apparently working in that area.

By last report, Andrea Rossi said that Leonardo now has 63 employees, and I imagine that most of them will be working on the engineering and R&D side of things. With all the new developments we are hearing about there would most likely be people with a wide variety of expertise involved. One thing that might account for the rapid progress that apparently is taking place is if the E-Cat theory is well understood within Leonardo Corp. Instead of haphazard progress coming from somewhat blind experimentation, a deep understanding on what is going on within their reactors would allow them to exploit the process much more rapidly.

  • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

    Admin, help! It doesn’t seem to be possible to place replies in the correct position – they are all just put at the bottom of the page without any indent.

    • admin

      There’s a limited number of levels that you can indent, I just increased it to 8 — hopefully that will help. The more indentations you allow, the skinnier the posts become.

      • GreenWin

        So… if I post on indents 7&8 for the next two weeks – I lose 30 pounds??? This blog is the best!

      • Sergio

        Maybe just push it to 10.

  • GreenWin

    “Just like [Admiral] Rickover’s nuclear submarines jump started the nuclear power industry, conventional nuclear power in the U.S., this kind of forward operating [military] base technology could easily jump start commercialization of cold fusion. [Rossi’s customer] I believe it is a military organization, not U.S. – European, one of the NATO member companies.” Dr. Michael McKubre, SRI

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      Full circle! (Quite a few bloggers originally speculated that the buyer was NATO on the basis that the test engineer – Fioravanti – was Italian, together with someone’s hint that the buyer’s identity began with ‘N’.)

      • GreenWin

        Interesting though that SPAWAR sent an observer – whose recognition prompted the blackout we are now in.

    • Omega Z

      Yes, He mentions Rickover’s Nuclear Sub, Then It’s like he needs to redirect. Not U.S., Not European, But a NATO member. NATO, U.S., Not much difference. The U.S. is the glue that holds it together. Naples, Major U.S. Navel Base & I believe 6th Fleet base.

      Rossi says U.S. Customer, Military, Starts with “N”. This could all be taking place on a U.S./NATO Navel base in Italy.

      We also know that the U.S. Navy has been given a mandate to move away from Fossil Fuels. Addendum, Competitive or cheaper the present fuel costs. This rules out most everything but LENR.

      Note: Most/all U.S. bases in Europe are considered a part of NATO.

  • skeptic

    So far, all E-cats have one thing in common: their existence and working has not been confirmed.
    Rossi keeps claiming things and introducing new models, and people are reacting as if these models are actually real, as if anyone can go to a shop and touch one.

    Have you yourself ever seen one E-cat?
    Do you know anyone who has seen one (besides Rossi)?

    • Allen McCloud

      Seen an ecat in person? No. Do I personally know someone who has seen one? No. Are these serious questions?

      • James McC

        Seen a nuke in person? No. Do I personally know someone who has seen on? No. Just a scam.

        • Ged

          My grandfather once sat on top of a nuclear bomb (for a B-52) while eating his lunch.

        • James Smithurst

          The effects of a nuclear bomb have been verified on numerous occasions so that their existence cannot be denied. In terms of Mr Rossi’s eCat, there are no truly independent tests to verify that his device actually works. Opposed to a nuclear bomb, where the inner-workings are public, the inner-workings of an eCat are not.

          In my humble view, I have gone from a hopeful follower of this technology to a denouncer and don’t believe that there is a proper functioning eCat, and as far as I am concerned, Mr Rossi will never produce one. This will be left up to other scientists, sometime in the future.

          Mr Rossi may have stumbled across something that does produce heat and is desperately trying to recreate the effects, similar to what Pons and Fleischmann tried to achieve, albeit with different technologies. Rossi is delaying us all trying to buy time to sort out (t)his technology. I don’t believe he is even close to commercialisation of an eCat.

          Sorry Mr Rossi…

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      Amazing insight, Skeptic – and to think that no-one here had managed to work that out.

      This is a forum for those who are prepared to conditionally accept the claims of Rossi and others in order to discuss possibilities. Contributors generally do not need the blazingly obvious pointed out to them and frankly your comment is entirely pointless.

      • James Smithurst

        Dear Peter,

        I don’t believe that this forum is or should only be for those who ‘conditionally accept the claims of Rossi…’

        This is an open forum and anyone can question the validity or logic or even the beliefs of those who follow the eCat story.

        Admin, do you agree?

    • Andrew Macleod

      You forgot to tell us that the sun comes up in the morning, or that water is wet.

    • Andrew Macleod

      Have you seen or touched the mars couriosity rover? A sheet of graphene? Gravity?

    • timycelyn

      And to paraphrase Basil Fawlty (showing my age again):

      “Today’s contestant on Mastermind is Skeptic. Subject: The Bleedin’ Obvious.”

    • Italo R.

      >Do you know anyone who has seen one (besides Rossi)?

      Yes, Cures (D. Fioravanti). Have you read cobraf.com about Cures?
      Try to read it. There was also the photo of the hot reactor

    • Chris

      Have you ever witnessed superconductivity at liquid helium temperatures? Have you ever witnessed it at liquid nitrogen temperatures? Do you personally know anyone who has? I witnessed it at liquid nitrogen temperatures, otherwise I shouldn’t believe it, I ought to say bullcrap because it isn’t quite 100% explained; the theory with Cooper pairs is somewhat dubious and would be sci-fi bullcrap if nobody had seen it happening. Besides, it came long after the first observation of superconductivity, which was back when even basic QM was still a weird novelty that sounded like bullcrap itself.

      Plenty of folks have witnessed LENR, including Ni-H, Rossi wasn’t the first to do it and already isn’t the last. I just ain’t one of them. While little is known about Domenico Fioravanti, his credentials can hardly be cross-checked (try it, he has a far more notorious namesake who adds to the military confidentiality issues) but there is no doubt about the identity of some other witnesses of Rossi’s e.cat and there were plenty of fine folks who saw Celani’s demo.

      You’re posting under the wrong name BTW, there’s a mighty difference between being a skeptic and being prejudiced.

    • Filip47

      Have you ever seen or touched your own brain.!?!?!!

  • georgehants

    From Rossi’s page.
    Joseph Fine
    August 30th, 2012 at 5:42 PM
    Dear Ing. Andrea Rossi:
    I just received a new limerick:
    ” In the meantime…” by Matt Robinson

    In October from Zurich we’ll know
    If the E-cat is able to show
    That Focardi and Rossi
    Are ahead of the posse
    And Cold Fusion is here, Ho, Ho!

    Martin Fleischmann, and Pons, and more
    Tried to show us the line to the shore.
    But the waters were muddied
    Full proofs never studied
    Perhaps Rossi’s just opened the door.

    If the E-Cat at last is revealed
    Not like when ‘Cures’ had squealed
    The snakes and gorillas
    Will don their mantillas
    To keep all their faces concealed.

    (Should ‘October’ be replaced by ‘September’? J.F. )

  • captain

    Rossi is going ahead with his job like a German panzer and he virtually says to the establishment that his invention is unstoppable,

    And most of all, that the states aren’y the sole country for E-Cats, hot cats in particular.

    As I’ve posted other times, it’s a warning to USPTO and UL not to delay too much their jobs (in China certificators could work on a 3 shifts basis, surely!).

    Other countries are eager of E-Cat technology…China, India, Russia.

    It’s clear that actually hot E-Cats thermal/electric plants are still in a development phase, but IMO within 6 mths the music would be played by a whole orchestra.

    remember Elvis’s .. It’s now or never.. tomorrow it will be too late..

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      I get the impression that Rossi may have already quietly given up on the US. If he did, it would be unsurprising, as corporate domination of politics there would virtually guarantee interference with the progress of CF through patent and certification processes.

      Things may not be vastly different in Europe, but with few remaining internal energy resources other than coal, and increasing hostility towards nuclear fission, acceptance of CF (on limited terms) is far more likely here.

      • timycelyn

        And the EU is far from homogeneous. Watch Sweden….

        • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

          Yes, Sweden does look like a possible. The UK of course will ignore CF until EDF wants to build cold fusion power stations here (and the US govt tells Camoron its OK).

          • GreenWin

            And the PTB tell US govt it’s okay to tell Camoron. Gee, you’d think the people had absolutely no say these days.

            • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

              How silly of you GreenWin. Of course we have a say. Here in the UK for example, every 4 years I get a 1 in 75,000 say in which particular parachuted-in. grasping. motor-mouthed retard I want to get his or her face in the trough while voting as instructed and totally ignoring the oiks who put him/her there until next time around. It gives me a warm, secure feeling knowing that I live in a democracy where, even if I don’t ever bother to vote again, it will not make the slightest difference to anything, anywhere.

              • GreenWin

                Peter, thanks for again confirming my impression that dry British wit is unsurpassed in the annals of humor!

  • Omega Z

    It’s dawned on me that Many of us are hung up on the total self sufficiency of an E-cat. We think from our personal point of View.

    Think Corporate for a minute.
    You have a hugh plant using 1 Megawatt of power.
    Rossi has mentioned a possible 50% conversion rate with the Hot Cat.
    You buy 2 -1Mw Electric Cats=1Mw Power. This provides your 1Mw of power.
    Your still need to purchase 300Kw to run the Cats. But that’s still a 70% savings.
    The numbers aren’t exact, but you get the Idea. You also get use of the heat loss for heating or cooling. CHIP plant.

    Even without total self sustain, there is a market.
    Better E-cat COP can come later.

    • Venno

      Thinking corporate

      You have an existing plant with a 1 mw gas or oil fired boiler
      Do you replace it with a 1mw ecat
      You will most probably have to upgrade you electricity supply by 200Kva
      Not being able to supply 200KVa the local municipality will force you to add 500kVa to you supply and so the costs creep up
      Yes I did not forget about the payback period but you have to take the cost of electrical upgrade into concideration
      What do you do?

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        Many small industrial boilers already have good power supplies to act in a standby role. For example a paper mill I recently did work for has a 1.2MW boiler with a 400KVA electrical supply in case of problems with the primary gas supply (not enough for full production, but sufficient to keep things going). Like many such installations I’ve seen, the boiler is a skid mounted unit in an accessible metal shed and would be an easy drop-in for LENR.

        However I think AR’s target market is probably the power generation industry, where boiler outputs are measured in the hundreds of megawatts. I very strongly suspect that the COP=6 thing will quietly evaporate once hot cat boilers are marketed, and available incoming power supplies will not be an issue.

    • Filip47

      Ofcourse, but a self sustaining Ecat makes you dream.
      Also it’s not written that there is going to be a cerification for homecats(hot), honestly, I’m starting to have doubts. That way gouvernments can still have control over energy.

      • Karl

        To my mind it will not be very easy to convince a potential customer to replace a traditional even costly and dirty but working solution with a 1MW industrial E-Cat container. You mentioned that you may need to upgrade your electrical supply or arrange for gas heating to prevent it from overrun.

        Further, one has to admit that the E-Cat is a new and untested energy source in the market. In the form of the container it will still be considered a prototype.

        Even now I believe it would be interesting as an emergency solution where any kind of infrastructure is missing or has broken down.

        The home unit or the small energy devices envisioned by Rossi would offer a much clearer market case. This even if one to some degree is dependent on minor extra electricity from the grid of though a gas supply. This is already the case with various air to air or ground to air/water heat cold or vice versa conversion, already used in many homes worldwide.

        Of course the possibility to entirely self-sufficient operation changes a lot. Perhaps it would offer a great value to speed up sales should a self-sustained operation being physically demonstrated, perhaps through two E-Cats. After such demo sales of such units could perhaps start at least in less regulated countries than US and Europe.

        • G_Zingh

          Something to think about. Consider the commercial price of electricity and natural gas in 2011 to a country like Italy. Where the price of elect/gas was 0.167/.035 = 4.78 times as much for industrial electricity over the price of natural gas.

          So for a 50% efficient power generator with natural gas driven Ecats at COP=6 then 1kW natural gas gives 3kW electrical.

          So if you are use to paying .167 per kWh electrical you are now paying .035/3= .01167 per kWh electric because of the Ecat.

          That is an order of magnitude in price difference or 10X less expensive for Ecat generated electricity for industrial use over what is offered over the grid. This could be a huge market and easier to access than the home heating market because of certification. I keep thinking about all those factories in India that had to shut down because of the their recent power failure problems.

          epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php?title=File:Half-yearly_electricity_and_gas_prices,_2011s2_(EUR_per_kWh).png&filetimestamp=20120522140751

        • Andrew Macleod

          “home cats” Won’t be on the market for a while! That’s why Rossi is pushing the industrial side of things. With industrial he will have many units running he can still make money to further the economic side of things and set a status quo. With 13 1mw plants working for industry he will amass over 10 million hours of run time per year and this will go a long way twords setting safety standards for home ecats.

  • Omega Z

    This was already Posted once by georgehants, But there’s some pretty interesting thing mentioned in it. The Audio is 1:12:00 long. 29 M-byte download if you prefer.

    It’s pretty informative.

    http://pesn.com/2012/08/29/9602171_Michael-McKubre_on_Cold-Fusions_Rise_Despite_Political_Academic_Suppression/

    It tells of the next ICCF in Missouri next year.
    Mentions Conspiracy, Listen close
    Sterling provides a text of the interview,(Not Word for Word) The Audio gives a better picture. It’s McKubre’s words. It mentions Rossi a couple times but is kind of vague. I get the feeling he knows more.

    One part that caught my Attention was mention of the Military would love to have a system the could be Choppered in & not have to refuel for 6 months. Who are we aware of that stresses 6 month refills.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Let’s face it, Rossi’s challenge is not to convince us. We don’t matter. His challenge is to convince the establishment that his device does not present a threat to the status quo. That’s why he publicly keeps emphasizing that his invention complements the present infrastructure and will smoothly be integrated. Privately, he probably explains how revolutionary the E-Cat will be.

    With respect to BigOil, Rossi is heeding Admiral Yamamoto’s lament, “I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.” Rossi is trying to avoid a “Pearl Harbor” and attempt an immaculate seduction. He is experienced in dealing with the entrenched establishment. Don’t be surprised if the hated Koch Brothers are already on board.

    • Omega Z

      Iggy

      Admiral Yamamoto was an Intelligent man. Educated in the U.S. (West Point I believe) He new what was to come. He said at 6 months the tide would turn. It Did. Down hill all the way after that. The U.S. took him out exactly 6 months to the day of Pearl Harbor.

      He was also an Honorable Man. As soon as he found out that the Attack at Pearl Harbor had commenced 5 minutes before the Declaration of War on the U.S. was delivered, He withdrew his invasion force from Hawaii. He considered it Dishonorable to attack without prior warning. Most Americans don’t realize the attack was meant to be an actual Invasion. Hawaii was to be taken as a stepping stone to the U.S. mainland.

  • dragonX

    Thank you admin for banning me… Isn’t it silly though?
    How will that censure on anything remotely skeptic regarding Rossi will help you or others here?
    What message you give to real skeptics in mainstream area when you squash all skepticism here?

    • Miles

      The way I see it…If you’re a sceptic, then this forum isn’t for you.

      This Forum is giving hope to people that something new is coming soon. Can’t wait 8th/10th of September 2012 !!!!

      • dragonX

        “If you’re a sceptic, then this forum isn’t for you.” I hope you are not of voting age. I will be scared to see what leaders you will vote in power. Don’t be amazed if you find out that all those scientists that suppressed Cold Fusion for 23 years were of the same mindset like you and the admin, just of different angle regarding LENR than us. Being open to criticism is a spiritual and intellectual quality.
        Being a skeptic is being rational. Being a believer is being rational with hope. I am of the second category.

        However, being patient for 2 years about Rossi claims with something that can be considered little to no proof at all, commands more than just belief, commands a certain fanaticism that is not good in any scientific field. In science small steps are as good as big steps but you need to have proof of your assumption (claims). That is how you advance your science in the public forum also.

        In Rossi case what it is needed now is extraordinary proof. He put himself in this corner with the amazing claims. And everybody is waiting that now. including me.
        I am very curios on what will reveal in Sept-October because if he will show other names (important and credible names) than his on the papers he will present, than that can be indeed the proof we are expecting.

        • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

          I’m not a sceptic. I’m not a believer. I get censored all the time. More often than not I push the limits and deserve it. Sometime’s I suspect Frank’s been brainwashed and just wants to preserve the Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood attitude about Rossi et al.

          Not a sceptic or believer then what are you? The more I look at LENR the more I realize that the free enterprise system, as it is set up to operate today, is not able to deal with technologies that are desperately needed by the world in a time critical manner. It needs some adjustment starting with patents, government certifications, X-Prize types of rewards, etc.

          • Miles

            If you’re posting on a LENR forum, then there must be a small bit of you that thinks all the information, is actually true. :)

          • GreenWin

            Exactly correct the system gated by academia, patents and publishing. These are the Ivory Towers that like the Knights of old should be protecting the peoples’ interests. Unfortunately there is the stench of corruption at the Knights table. And it has defiled the free market, perverted noble goals.

            The defilement accurately reflects the Knights behavior. As in any passive mirror – what you see is what you have created. Now, the Towers are filled with money changers – and they will be driven out.

        • Andrew Macleod

          There is nothing wrong with being sceptical. Debating the validity of “Rossi says” comments is moot and unproductive. I believe most of us here take most of the information with a grain of salt, knowing there is no validity in what is said only in what is done. We just want more info. This story has two different endings. Rossi goes to jail, or mankind is in the beginnings of a new era. Very exciting!

          • G_Zingh

            I really appreciate this site because it’s about the information and not about the lack of proof. I think most people realize the proof is lacking; give us credit for a little bit of intelligence.

            Don’t be a skeptic back seat driver “Look out, danger, danger there is no proof.” As we drive down this road of intellectual curiosity trust us to be competent enough to steer clear of the hazards of delusion. Don’t fill up space on this blog with negativity. Let us enjoy the story, because it is a great story regardless of how it turns out, true/false.

            I think because of the establishment’s aversion towards anything cold fusion the model of advancement through scientific proof is invalid and advancement through engineering next generation cold fusion products is relevant. The rules have changed. At this particular stage of the story I don’t require proof as much as I hope for progress.

            However it turns out one thing clear to me is that Rossi has really energized the field of cold fusion/LENR. I remain somewhat skeptical but projecting hope.

            • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

              Totally agree (wish I’d said that!).

              • http://www.american-reporter.com Joe Shea

                My problem with skeptics is that (I believe) they somehow lack the capacity to believe. They may have been traumaticaly betrayed and lied to early in life and forever after found themselves doubting everything they could doubt. Remember, those who once believed in a flat earth were skeptics when Colombus and others said it was round, when the Wrights said we could fly and on many other occasions when science and time proved them wrong. I am pretty much an anti-skeptic, although I believe very little politicians tell me!

                • Craig Binns

                  Joe

                  “Remember, those who once believed in a flat earth were skeptics when Colombus and others said it was round” That’s total nonsense. Every sane educated person knew the earth was round during Columbus’s lifetime. That had been generally known and accepted for hundreds of years, including by the Church.

      • Kim

        Here Here!

        Truly the Science has been proven.
        and as immature as it may be, for gods
        sake nurture it and let it grow.

        It serves no one now to be skeptical
        and demeaning and or crude.

        Now Let us dream and Hope for a
        better tom marrow.

        Respect
        Kim

    • Ged

      You don’t seem banned to me.

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        Sadly.

  • Miles

    For those that are Following LENR – Car Prototypes, i got the below information.
    Website: ecatcar.org/home.php

    “We expect to have a car prototype between end 2013 and mid 2014″ – It a start.

    “Then for a car available on the market, probably not before 2020″ – I hope they’re wrong. It should be sooner, well before 2020 !!!!

  • georgehants

    Michael McKubre on Cold Fusion’s rise despite political academic suppression
    Having just returned from two amazing conferences featuring cold fusion, NI Week and ICCF-17, Dr. McKubre from SRI International, shared some great insights regarding the whole phenomenon of the emergence of cold fusion near market readiness now, notwithstanding the blackballing it received from academia.
    By Sterling D. Allan
    Pure Energy Systems News
    http://pesn.com/2012/08/29/9602171_Michael-McKubre_on_Cold-Fusions_Rise_Despite_Political_Academic_Suppression/

    • daniel maris

      Allan reports McKubre’s view as:

      “There are no accredited academic journals that will publish articles about cold fusion. It doesn’t matter how good the science is in those papers, merely the fact their subject is cold fusion is enough to prevent their publication. It’s purely politics, not science.”

      This is an outrage if true.

      • Anthony

        Yes, it’s amazing that there’s virtually nothing in the media, even sceptical stuff, that one wonders whether there is some sort of political supression.

  • Chris

    Errrr, for heating a closet?

    • Paul

      running a refrigerator or freezer.
      running a satellite.
      running a remote logging station.
      running a portable water purifier.
      The end uses are unlimited.

      • Chris

        Not quite.

        Don’t forget it’s thermal power, so not a great deal for many non thermal uses and hardly worth conversion, The fridge, perhaps, if well designed. Warming socks, or a steam iron, yeah OK.

      • Thinks4Self

        How about a 300W unit using 20% efficient thermalcouples injuction with a good lithium ion battery to power LED street lights. Charge all day and use the battery and the generated power to shine all night. All without a connection to the grid.

        • Chris

          Hmmm the way it currently works I don’t see it for that kind of application, not yet. It would need more attention as well as maintenance compared to PV. Plus how long would it take to pay off?

        • Thinks4Self

          Chris <- My whole idea is just a what if you had a compact reliable small heat source.

          At 300W I figure we are talking a reactor core the size of a 'C' battery. When you add rings of shielding and thermal couples with heat exchanger fins you'll end up with a disc about 200mm in dia. x 100mm thick. Fits easy on top of a light pole and is air cooled with no moving parts 'KISS Principle' in design. 300W spread over something that large is cool enough to handle with gloves. So maintenance is easy. You use you lift to go to the top. Unbolt the whole reactor and thermocouple assembly and bolt a refueled one in its place. The old one you take down to the truck and essentially drop it in a bucket of water to cool it down below reaction point. So easy a trained monkey can do it. The benefit is even after a weeks bad weather or in northern latitudes in the winter it still has enough juice to shine. PVs need grid tie in or have to reduce output to work in those zones.

          • Chris

            You’re forgetting the certifier’s requirements and I still don’t think unattended use will be recommended for some time.

  • http://wp.me/p26aeb-4 ChemE

    The reaction is very real along with the heat and radiation observed.

    The primary problem remains scaling up a technology which is inherently unstable due to its nature. When you combine fission, fusion and collapsed matter you unleash a torrent of safety and reliability problems. This is the real reason for the delay to market in all of these devices, including magnetic impulse motors and will remain that way until all the issues are resolved.

    I discuss this in my blog.

    ChemE
    http://wp.me/p26aeb-4

  • georgehants
    • JamesA

      check out the website .. http://prometeon.it/ – he has a count down clock there – this is getting interesting! is there a energy Revolution about to take place?

      • daniel maris

        Intriguing…let’s hope it’s something spectacular.

      • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

        full speculation: perhaps Italian certification has proceeded faster than the main ones

      • Ged

        Interesting that its countdown is 30 days away. I wonder what is expected to happen October 1st/2nd.

  • GreenWin

    In the following video Francesco Celani a very good, courageous scientist, has a very HUMAN moment. While discussing the end of the run of his device at NI Week he comments on how the anomalous heat just kept growing, getting bigger, (~22W) and for Francesco better. At video 2:30, he thanks the people with him for their help in setup of the experiment… and he has to stop, being overwhelmed with gratitude.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMSaacNMQ3s&feature=player_embedded

    This is a good man, doing good work, for a good purpose. Brilliant.

    • Lu

      Yes, I fully agree. It’s very touching and I expect even bigger things from Celani in the near future.

    • Andre Blum

      nice video.

    • Barry

      Thanks GreenWin, one of the breakthrough moments for me was Pro. Celani’s presentation at CERN. He is not just of the mind, but of the heart as well.

  • Jacob

    200-300 Watt is suitable to run your desk top computer.

    • http://www.nickelpower.org Bruce Fast

      Not so much. Seebeck generators peek out at about 10% efficient. At 300w, that’s 30 watts available. Then there’s the question of the COP of the device. If it is the 6 that Rossi has been reporting for the home heating unit, well, we’re behind the 8 ball.

      The device, however, should be great as a proof of concept. Hopefully in the not terribly distant future we’ll see a unit the size of a laptop battery or so able to run the laptop. (Of course there’s still the question of the 1/2″ thick lead shielding.

      Let the R&D begin, but a heck of a lot of it will happen before every device is replaced by LENR.

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        And if you think the cooling fan on your laptop is noisy, wait for the one in a CF/TEG ‘battery’ – you could strip paint with the exhaust hot air.

    • Fibber McGourlick

      Good for heating tents. Would be very useful for that purpose in refugee zones.

  • mattias

    Well a what to see small e-cat’s combined with Cyclone Power Technologies engines then we have lawn mower, small motorbikes and cars in an instant.

    • JamesA

      Cyclone Power Technologies – is a scam, five years and no product only NEWS ALERTS of “so-called” deals dating back years, see if you can find ONE Working Demo – does not exist.

      • georgehants

        JamesA, pleas give links to people who have taken out an court summons accusing these people of a scam.
        Thank you.

        • GreenWin
          • JamesA

            This youtube video means nothing – Cyclone Power Technologies – has been leading on investors for 5 years – with the phoney PRESS RELEASES, and China deals that never happen and delay after delay, year after year, please no more Press Releases Cyclone Power Technologies of Pompano Beach, Florida

        • GreenWin
          • Karl

            Very interesting. Certainly it looks pretty real to me. This type of solution was also used for early version cars 90 years ago before the petrol driven motors took over.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        POMPANO BEACH, FL, Jul 17, 2012 — Cyclone Power Technologies Inc. (OTCQB:CYPW), developer of the all-fuel, clean-tech Cyclone Engine, announced today that it has successfully completed the first major milestone under its engine development contract with the U.S. Army / Tank Command (TACOM), and its initial billing to TACOM of approximately $500,000 has been submitted and approved for payment.

        The Army / TACOM contract is valued at approximately $1.4 million, inclusive of this first payment. The program objective is to develop a Phase I prototype of a highly compact, lightweight 10kW power generator, driven by Cyclone’s power-dense, external combustion engine technology. The final product is expected to be compatible for use with multiple lines of combat vehicles either as a built-in auxiliary or dismountable and portable power unit. Cyclone anticipates completing this Phase I contract by June 2013, which may be followed by Phase II follow-on development and funding next year.

        ~~~~

        August 21, 2012 09:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time
        Aura Systems Joins Forces with Cyclone Power Technologies to Develop Renewable Power Generation

        EL SEGUNDO, Calif. & POMPANO BEACH, Fla.–(BUSINESS WIRE)–Aura Systems, Inc. (OTCBB: AUSI) and Cyclone Power Technologies, Inc. (OTCQB: CYPW) announced today that the two companies have formed a technology development alliance to combine the all-fuel Cyclone Engine with the AuraGen induction motor and control unit. The partners anticipate that the integrated renewable power generation system will be able to provide a turn-key distributed solution for customers looking to produce grid-tied or stand-alone electricity from renewable and waste resources.

        ~~~~

        P-10 Clear Cover

        The Phoenix-10 is a state-of-the-art generator system that is capable of utilizing waste oil products, such as used motor/equipment oil, to produce electricity for operational needs or for transfer to the power grid. Utilizing the award-winning, clean burning Cyclone WHE-25 External Combustion Engine, the P-10 generator system is designed to produce upwards of 10kW of electrical power.

        The P-10 is a combination of new and old technology. Other than the engine, which allows the genset to operate, the components are “off the shelf” items with UL ratings and a history of outstanding performance.

        The P-10 operation is straightforward. Waste (used) oil is pumped from a storage tank through filters to a small double wall holding container. From there, the oil is atomized through special nozzles in the combustion chamber (shown in red in the image to the left) and ignited. Stainless steel tubes containing the working fluid are coiled in the chamber. This fluid is super heated and then forced into the cylinders of the engine. This, in turn, produces mechanical energy by pushing the cylinders and turning a shaft leading to the electric motor. The rotation in the electric motor produces the electricity.

        Once the steam is expelled from the cylinders it travels to the radiator and then to the condensing reservoir. From there, it makes its way back to the combustion chamber to repeat the process. Our genset is a completely enclosed system.

        ~~~~

        POMPANO BEACH, FL–(Marketwire -06/04/12)- Cyclone Power Technologies Inc. (CYPW) (CYPW), developer of the all-fuel, clean-tech Cyclone Engine, announced today that it has fulfilled its contract with Raytheon Integrated Defense Systems (IDS), a business of Raytheon Company. The Company has delivered to Raytheon IDS two Cyclone MR-36 Engines which have been received and accepted by the customer.

        Harry Schoell, CEO of Cyclone, commented: “We’re happy to have completed this important contract for our customer, Raytheon IDS, within the budget and timeframe allotted. This is a major milestone we have achieved for Cyclone and its shareholders. We thank the strong team at Raytheon for the support they provided along the way, and hope to continue our work with them in the near future.”

  • Mannstein

    If Rossi’s company Leonardo really has 63 full time employees he must have some serious financing. That being the case the investor or investors must have done due diligence before committing themselves.

    Put me down as optimistic that Rossi is on to something and this isn’t just a scam.

    • GreenWin

      Seriously? After two years you are just arriving here? Ah well, the good news keeps getting better!

    • MJS

      Yes! Over sixty full-timers is probably the biggest news yet. This does mean that money is coming in from somewhere.

    • Ged

      We know his company is actually controlled by a trust of investors, whom he answers to.

      • Jim Johnson

        Which is a very good thing…

  • georgehants

    Andrea Rossi
    August 30th, 2012 at 10:06 AM

    Dear Brian:
    The Journalists attending the conference will hear the report. The same report will be eventually published on the Journal Of Nuclear Physics and anybody will be allowed to reproduce it free in toto or in part: the Journal Of Nuclear Physics does not apply the Copyright on its publications.
    Regards,
    A.R.

    • Ged

      Bah, self publishing doesn’t count. Hopefully that’s not all that is planned; totally fine if it is in part. On the other hand, if it is a 3rd party report he’s talking about, as he previously has said he’d post up the validation report on JNP, then that’s totally fine; as then it’s just giving us access to a report. But for peer-reviewed science publications, JNP just won’t cut it.

      • http://log edog

        Maybe Rossi is delusional?? Maybe he really does think his own blog is a legit place to publish the reports and validations?

        • Ivan Mohorovicic

          The upcoming September report is supposed to be an industrial report from a commercial, third party entity, not a peer reviewed science paper by university professors.

        • georgehants

          edog, maybe more legitimate than the corrupt main-line journals that deny and censor many fair reports.
          One must not condemn indiscriminately but only when the Evidence of wrong doing is clear.

          • GreenWin

            I’m with george. The publisher’s name and title is far less important in the internet world. Legitimate information even on a blog – makes it no less legitimate. And consider the very small newspapers that have won Pulitzer Prizes even though they are dwarfed by mainstream giants. All it takes is integrity and the truth.

            • http://log edog

              Fair call guys.
              As usual Im hoping for the best!

        • MJS

          If a peer review paper is going to come out then it many not appear in print for another year even if it’s submitted today.

          • Ron

            Lets keep in mind that peer reviews are for leading edge science and medical. While the reactions in the e-Cat certainly qualify as leading edge science, engineering development of products don’t require this avenue. Did the Wright brothers or Henry Ford or Steve Jobs wait for review before producing a product?

            These are two separate but interlinked issues. I stated quite a while back that I doubted Rossi would produce a consumer e-cat first. His goals are based on the development of the technology. As the temperature and stability improved he could see industrial uses which are easier and more profitable.

            I would like to see coal power plants retrofitted to use these reactors. Use in cars will probably not happen or at least be long delayed. I would guess the Plasma transition engine will be best for this application.

      • Claes

        In any event, this is not for a peer reviewed journal. It’s not a paper, it’s a technical report. If anything, there would be write-ups about it by science writers. I seriously doubt Rossi would take four weeks out of his time to write a paper, which in order to be publishable would have to disclose details about how it works, not just experimental data. He might do it later if he’s interested in the prestige… But now? Why? So nitpicking Ph.D students are satisfied? Why would he?

        • Ged

          Very true, Claes. For some reason, when I originally read that, I was thinking peer-review publication. Probably since that’s the sort of thing normally on my mind as part of my career.

          Just posting (hosting) up a technical report on the device is a completely different thing from a scientific paper, in that he can put it anywhere (the degree of its validation is not dependent on its publication location, unlike peer-reviewed journals), since it’s a self contained 3rd party document.

          I was being overly critical.

      • freethinker

        I completely agree. It is sad really, it is as if he dont grasp that such a forum, his own blog, by no means cut it. To present some white paper describing the tech may be one thing, but if he really want to have an impact – what makes nih lenr tick ala Rossi – he must aim higher. I have this, not so pleasant, feeling that we should not expect too much come 9th september.

        • Ged

          Best to assume that’s the case, while hoping its not.

  • georgehants

    Andrea Rossi
    August 30th, 2012 at 10:12 AM
    Dear Mark Saker:
    All our production has to be certified.
    The safety certification for the industrial plant has been completed for the low temp. plants.
    The certification for the Hot Cats is in course.
    The certification for the domestic apparatuses is in course.
    The NDA we have with the Certificators does not allow us to give more info regarding the certifications so far.
    Congratulations for your glorious Newspaper,
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • edog

      Hey George!
      Any idea what newspaper Mark Saker is from??

      And I agree with your comments below! Have a look at Franks pol. 600 plus rational people… 200 or so believers and 55 weirdos! We have a pretty good group here!
      :)

      • Mark Saker

        The Stamford Mercury – oldest newspaper in Britain. They’ve kindly agreed to let me publish an article (I’m not a journalist).

        It is a local newspaper – we have to start somewhere! I encourage you all to do the same. If it publishes online too, I’ll post the article.

        • georgehants

          Well done Mark.

          • http://log edog

            Second that!
            Good luck Mark… There are quite a few guys on here who are really know their LENR stuff, Im sure if you ask they would gladly help with info for your article?
            …but maybe youre one of them :)

        • GreenWin

          Great vision Mark.

  • georgehants

    Guys it is a difficult situation with Rossi et al, lets just keep it calm, we are doing the right thing, give him his chance, if he is not genuine we have not been fooled, but if he is genuine then none of us has abused or denied him.
    We wait for Evidence, that is the way it should be.
    No abuse, no denial, just follow the Evidence.
    No crime in being optimistic, far better than the childish, deniers that condemn every scientist for suggesting another way, another answer.
    tolerance and patience will lead to the TRUTH.
    Only the TRUTH matters, everything else is rubbish.

    • Kim

      Celeini’s Demonstration was similar to the
      wright brothers first flight witnessed for
      20 or thirty seconds.

      Lots of optimism, lots of caution.

      We know it works, and like the first flight the
      question becomes how long.

      And with Rossi, it becomes how much energy?
      ect…

      Sept 10th will give us solid third party reference.

      another level of confidence.

      I am so excited for mankind.

      Respect
      Kim

      • GreenWin

        Wonderful Kim!

      • Andrew Macleod

        I believe it’s October for the 3rd party stuff. September is a “Rossi says” report.

        • Andrew Macleod

          He might have some people nodding their heads in the back now.

  • Roger Bird

    I am very excited about LENR. But I am having trouble getting excited about Rossi until such time as we have some proof about what he says. Otherwise, responding to him only encourages him if he is a crook or a lunatic. And what is so revealing about a demonstration of the hot cat. Celani, one of my LENR heroes, has made a demonstration and nobody could figure out how he did it, yet they know that it was genuine LENR. Why can’t Rossi do this? Rossi has time to respond to emails, but he doesn’t have time for one little demo that would not risk his industrial secrets.

    • edog

      Agreed Mr Bird!
      Lets hope Rossi has proper 3rd party validation… in the mean time!

      or maybe he doesnt know how to use a camera??? or have one?

      Has anyone asked why he cant take a few happy snaps of his working devices/ factory etc??

    • Cliff Bradley

      Rossi has already done demos. What purpose can be served by doing another one before his plants are ready? September 10th is right around the corner. Working plants in the hands of users that need them is the only thing that matters.

      • Roger Bird

        Cliff, those demos, which is exactly what I want, confirmed LENR and LENR-on-steroids. But Rossi has made a lot of other claims since then, in particular “hot cat”, and until I see a demo or other good reason to believe him, those claims are just claims.

    • mcloki

      What does he gain from that? Your approval is worthless, financially speaking. It gains Rossi nothing. SO why do it.

      • Roger Bird

        Not quite, but sort of. If lots of people believe that Rossi has something, this will influence venture capitalists. Furthermore, he has enough time to chat, why not show us an ECat running at 1000 C. His chatting is also worthless, but a genuine 1000 C ECat would be much more fun.

        • freethinker

          mcloki is right.

          He has the financing he needs, he need not convince anybody to get more funds. And convincing you or I at this point in time is not important. To convince certifiers is very important, and when that is done, and there is a product out for you and me to buy, it will market itself and we’ll buy it. That is if he truly has the goods….

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Interesting, but what would convince you that you saw a genuine ECat running at 1000C and not some show?

          I would also like to see that hot cat, but then the whole problem of the validity of such a show would rear it’s not so pretty head.

          So what would it take to convince you that Rossi has something? To make such a test worthwhile would probably cost Rossi a lot of time and still people would be skeptical. It’s a Catch-22 dilemma: Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

    • GreenWin

      Question:

      IF Rossi is a “crook or a lunatic” – what does it make the 63 people working for Leonardo? And what about all the name professors, industry and government officials around him after two years?? If he’s doing magic, it may be more powerful than the LENR he is inventing.

      • Roger Bird

        Who said that he has 63 people working for him? I really want to believe. And all of those professors, etc. They were with him when he proved LENR and LENR-on-steroids. But I haven’t seen those professors etc since Rossi has made all these other claims, like a big factory, 1000 C ECat, etc. Rossi clinched it for me for LENR-on-steroids. It was very impressive to see that hot steam blasting out of that hose for minute after minute after minute. The box could not have possibly held that much water plus a chemical heat generator. I am a believer in that. But he keeps making more claims. I ain’t saying he is a crook or a lunatic. I am saying, show me. Show me what you have.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        I agree Greenwin. It is the basis of my slightly positive view of Rossi that his story is too elaborate, too difficult not be true. So many people are involved that it seems extremely difficult to keep issueing these statements on JONP without the whole thing blowing up on him.

        That said you’d never have believed that a guy named Madoff could have pulled of the scam that he did for as long as he did…

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Admin: Why are most of my comments awaiting moderation?

          • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

            The capricious auto moderation software has become sentient and is now drunk with its own power.

    • Omega Z

      Roger

      I understand people would like another Demo. But Rossi has given multiple Demo’s already. Other then Making you/us feel a little better, they serve no real purpose at this time. In the End we would know no more then we do now. He’s not going to disclose his secrets. Because of this the Skeptics will still attack. Probably more so.

      Demo’s are Not Cheap. Most would be shocked at the actual cost of a Demo. Possibly 10′s of thousands. Hundreds of man hours. Materials etc.. Weeks in preparation.

      When you determine the actual cost, You then DOUBLE that. These costs & time could have been spent advancing the process. It Will delay a product to market & these costs are incalculable until after the fact.

      If Rossi doesn’t have anything, it doesn’t matter. If he does have a working product then he should push full steam ahead. A Demo would just be another Delay…

      • Roger Bird

        Just because a demo would not serve any of Rossi’s purposes does not mean that it would not serve one of my purposes, which is to get excited about what he is doing. I want to believe.

        • GreenWin

          Roger, your frustration IS excitement. I suspect you will be impressed and pleased you were here at the very beginning. It’s a helluva tale to tell the grandkids.

        • Omega Z

          That’s what we all want.

          But what would be better then a Demo is a Customer coming forward & saying, We have 1, We’re using it & It works as described.

          • clovis

            Hi, Omega, and guys.
            Your suggestion is a good one but Mr. Rossie
            chooses not to demo for a reason, a lot will be revealed, soon, on the 8-12th, just a few days.
            Then we will have a better idea, about what is going on , i can hold my breath that long, –smile.

  • JamesA

    Hank Mills Report: a single, small “hot cat” (weighing about ten pounds or 4.5 kilograms) can produce high temperatures up to 1,200 degrees Celsius or higher. At the same time, Rossi asserts that a single module can produce approximately ten kilowatts of power.

    http://pesn.com/2012/08/30/9602172_A_Barrel_of_a_Hundred_High_Temperature_E-Cats/

  • Paul Stout

    Where I work, that is not only possible, it is our way of life. There are ethical people in this world that can keep secrets.

  • Sergio

    Poor argument. There are plenty of companies and organisations in the world with 1000s of employees, and none produce any leaks.

  • http://www.lenrforum.eu/ Alain

    The interest of small 300W devices is already clear if you read the futurology boo of Jed Rothwell : Cold fusion and the Future (2005).

    He plan that with time there will be CF heater to replace heat source in all devices that use heat, like oven, washing machines, coffee machine, beside the evident usage for space heating and boilers…
    It can also work for fridge (absorption fridge).

    The idea is to reduce electricity consumption, so that finally you can produce all your electricity at home, with a CHP of few kW.
    maybe also when micro-turbines or TEG get cheap and efficient, all devices could be autonomous even about electricity.

    • Sergio

      Smaller swimming pool could do with a couple of those 300W’ers.

      • Kim

        The Hot Tub Market!

        Respect
        Kim

        • mcloki

          Sub floor heating units.

        • edog

          Totally agree!
          Imagine how many people would be soaking it up right now if they could afford to run their own hot tub for next to nothing??? :)

          I wonder if you could sanitise the water too with that kind of power so you could do away with the chlorine and other nasty chemicals??

        • Robyn

          Alright, I will admit, that is the first really exciting thing I’ve read about the small units. :P

        • Andrew Macleod

          Your pool could be your hot tub! Keep your pool open in the winter too!

      • Jim Johnson

        swimming pool heater…

        Finally, Rossi gets my attention!

    • GreenWin

      Erm, 300 W, is too low for cooking (think 3 100W light bulb heat.) If allowed to accumulate over time – e.g. hot tub or pool – it could bring temp up to swim comfort. Hot tub (in ambient air) would need more to heat 100G to 40C.

  • springro

    Sounds like a good size for a space heater that would have a lot faster market penetration than furnace alternative. Basic electrical heaters eat a lot of juice if you’re running them all the time.

    But, he says not for the near term….

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      A watt is a unit of power equal to one joule of energy per second. In terms of wattage, almost all 120-volt space heaters are rated up to 1500 watts at the maximum setting, and there is a 10/1 ratio of watts to square feet heated. Therefore, a 1500 watt space heater (120 volts) can heat an area of 150 square feet, and a garage heater rated at 5,000 watts should be able to comfortably heat an area over 400 square feet. Therefore, if you want to heat your 450 square foot living room, you would need to purchase three space heaters for adequate heating.

  • theBuckWheat

    As wonderful as the E-Cat appears to be, until the physics of the fundamental process is fully understood, there are two risks for Rossi. The first is that the device stops working without an apparent reason. The second is that it suddenly starts to work too well, that is to create a lot more heat than he designed it for. The later is a real safety risk for the time being.

    • GreenWin

      The second is pure engineering – not hard.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      We never understood how horses ran until the invention of the slow motion movie, yet we enjoyed the service of horses for tens of thousands of years…same with a dog lapping water.

      • Craig Binns

        That’s right Iggy. Now please tell me when we’re going to start to “enjoy the services” of the Rossi ecat. When I see one pulling a buggy along a road, like a horse, I’ll believe, theory or no theory. As yet, we can see horses running and dogs drinking. We can go and look at these things as closely as we like, any time we want. But we can see no ecat in operation.

        So we have no theory, AND we have no evidence. This makes belief quite difficult for a rational mind.

    • Omega Z

      theBuckWheat

      The Longevity has probably been determined. The Unknowns are the problem. A freak of nature that hasn’t appeared in 1000′s of hours of tests. That can’t or may never happen. Only an accumulation of 100′s of thousands of hours run time will answer to a reasonable degree. The Faster they can get Industrial units in place, the faster they will have their answers.

    • saclamb

      I see a third risk related to the uncertainty of the underlying physics. Rossi’s technology (along with all others) is very immature. Rapid design improvements will come with better understanding. We’ve already seen the high-temperature e-cat all but destroy the business model of the low temperature predecessors. So if you had some venture capital to spread around, would you place it with Rossi?

      • Jim Johnson

        I’d certainly place it in LENR. My sense is that there’s too much “smoke” for there not to be a “fire” at the center of Rossi’s endeavor. Disbelief that Rossi has something that does something that can be commercially exploited requires a deliberate ignoring of available information, combined with a general ignorance of entrepreneurial business behavior. However, history is littered with innovators who failed to develop viable, long term business operations. On the other hand, he’s seemingly made many of the right moves with respect to business governance, military customers, and commercial distribution agreements, and his engineering staff could be quickly scaled. What am I saying? Where do I send the check? Still a gamble though, on whether Mitsubishi, General Electric or Siemens will be snacking on the remains of Leanardo’s work in five years. Then again, HP started in a garage with one product…I think I’ve run out of other hands here…

      • Omega Z

        saclamb

        There is a market for each. It depends on what you need the E-cat for. But I agree the majority will be looking for the Electric Hot Cat. At this point it doesn’t matter that much. I’d venture to say the 1st Electric Hot Cat Delivery is at least a year away.

  • http://havenheed.com Havenheed

    Perhaps smaller e-cats would be a way of easier getting approval from authorities (which he seems to struggle with, at the moment, if I understood correctly)..? Then he could reach market sooner (even though the article claims this is for future consideration), and then you’d just have to buy a few more, perhaps one in every room you’d like to heat. If the prices per W would be similar to the ‘old’ home e-cats, then this would make no difference.

    Another good use I’d like to see with smaller e-cats is for camping and recreational purposes. Just imagine having all the heating you need for your tent and for cooking in something the size of a thermos or so, and that you could ‘stay in field’ for several months too! :)

  • alexvs

    No matter how much power the E-Cats can supply. The point is if E-Cat works. If it does not work, every other disquisitions are worthless.

    • Ivan_cev

      Ignorance, make you believe by faith, the truth is we must be skeptic until real evidence is shown.

      • philippefx

        Sure. But every 3 messages are “if it’s real”, “if it works”, etc.

        Okay. We understand we should wait for more evidence, etc.

        Now, let us get more information about Rossi and e-cat, and for the sceptics, please go away.

        We are (mostly) adults and don’t need unconstructives messages everytime a new article is posted.

        • Robyn

          Well, I approve of skeptics being on this list. They have every right to be skeptical: how many showmen and dreamers have come up short of rigorous proof?

          For me, I think CF is nearly beyond doubt, and I tend to think Rossi makes sense. So I give him benefit of the doubt. Besides, September is right around the corner.

          • Filip47

            +

    • alexvs

      I have not clear if it is the right blog for me as sometimes I am banned, sometimes dropped awaiting a moderation which never comes and sometimes even insulted but in any case I thought it were a site where free opinions even from X-skeptics could be exposed.

      X for pseudo, patho, neutral, psico, iatro, poli, multi…

      • admin

        Hi Alexv,

        I don’t mind posts that express honest doubts and skepticism — but please don’t express them over and over again.

        We understand there are still question, and we are all looking for more evidence.

        Most people here are cautiously optimistic.

        • Filip47

          Maybe, but I don’t like the aggressive tone of Captain either.
          Filip.

          • captain

            Among civil people, in a public open blog like this one, I’m kindly asking:

            When a blogger declares he’s skeptic about E-Cats one time for all, and he doesn’t trust Rossi for whatever reason one time for all, how many times more has he to repeat that, to let it known to the other bloggers, visitors of each thread?

            And the same unconstructive ‘music’ in each thread, and several times, and over and over and over again?

            What’s your opinion, Admin?

            • GreenWin

              …moved comment

            • GreenWin

              We pragmatists have long ago assumed (likely correctly) the reason for repetition of skeptic doubt is purely political.

              Repetition: “Propagandists use this technique to drum the message into the target audience’s subconscious by repeating keywords or phrases over and over until resistance to the message weakens. The target audience eventually accepts the message often without even realizing it. Adolph Hitler emphasized the need for repetition in propaganda.”

              • Jim Johnson

                I think there is also a kind parasitic psychology of a certain type of pseudo-skeptic. They know that in the absence of irrefutable evidence that we “enthusiasts” have residual concerns. They like to poke their fingers into those concerns. Why? To draw attention to themselves. It also appears to be a compulsive, addictive behavior. So, since we’re on the topic (with apologies to the honest skeptics):

                A drunk, a skeptic, and a vampire walked into a bar. The patrons looked up in dismay. The drunk drained their drinks, the skeptic drained their hopes, and the vampire drained their souls. As they were leaving, one said to the other two, “That was fun. Let’s trade places again tomorrow.”

                • GreenWin

                  The “psuedos” are not just egomaniacs, some are paid. Managing public perception is the new IP battleground. Companies able to bend public perception one way or another – become highly valuable. Government have long used this craft to sway opinion to enter wars.

                  When the human race finally internalizes the concept that there IS enough for everyone – the crafty manipulators of perception will lose their jobs.

              • GreenWin

                “…a dubious past” is just such a phrase. The new testament? Didn’t it leave out a lot???

              • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

                Deleted by author – posts keep going to incorrect positions so they become non-sequiteurs.

              • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

                Also:

                “Technique #3 – ‘TOPIC DILUTION’

                Topic dilution is not only effective in forum sliding it is also very useful in keeping the forum readers on unrelated and non-productive issues. This is a critical and useful technique to cause a ‘RESOURCE BURN.’ By implementing continual and non-related postings that distract and disrupt (tro11ing) the forum readers they are more effectively stopped from anything of any real productivity. If the intensity of gradual dilution is intense enough, the readers will effectively stop researching and simply slip into a ‘gossip mode.’ In this state they can be more easily misdirected away from facts towards uninformed conjecture and opinion. The less informed they are the more effective and easy it becomes to control the entire group in the direction that you would desire the group to go in. It must be stressed that a proper assessment of the psychological capabilities and levels of education is first determined of the group to determine at what level to ‘drive in the wedge.’ By being too far off topic too quickly it may trigger censorship by a forum moderator.”

                Edit – I give up. This was meant to be an addition to GreenWin’s comment about deliberate repetition of misinformation at 5:19, but there seems to be a problem with placement.

                • georgehants

                  Peter, cheer yourself up reading this off topic tid-bit.
                  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48863290/ns/technology_and_science-science/#.UEEWViKcnRQ

                • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

                  Fascinating stuff. I’m glad that Amelino-Camelia found a way to re-introduce uncertainty – it’s always so boring when Einstein and the ‘standard model’ are vindicated!

                • GreenWin

                  Peter, you reveal the inner craft of information control. A new form of warfare that many are investing heavily in.

            • ivan_cev

              Then the same rule should be applied to believers, The nature of e-cat is misterious, the inventor have a dubios past, and there is questions about the demos, then you acept Rossi word like it cames from the new testament.
              Give me a break.

              Most people here are true believers of LENR, but doubt of Rossi and His ecat. Obiously most like me cross fingers Rossi is real but are cautious.

              • LCD

                Right there with you

        • edog

          Agreed!

          By the way Frank, good idea on the pol.

          Have a look at it guys… from the data given by us readers.. it looks like we have 55 pathological deniers
          224 zealotry faithful true believers…. wait for it!!!

          and 615 well balanced individuals with logical minds.. it kind of restores my faith in humanity… and once again proves to me why I like Franks blog! congratulations People!

          And I personally I dont mind reading rants and raves!! Its fun, thats another reason I come here everyday if possible! :) :)

          Wonder if I used any words up for moderation ??? :)

          • GreenWin

            “If you don’t believe there is a real effect, you are being ignorant of the data.” Dr. Rob Duncan Vice Chancellor Research and Director of the Kimmel Inst. Nuclear Renaissance, University Missouri (the “Show Me” State.)

        • alexvs

          Ok.
          I apologize.
          Temptation was irresistible.
          Excuse me.
          I will not post again.

          • Filip47

            I found your previous posts ,always constructive and polite. It keeps the discussions at the edge? I have learned a lot about LENR this passing year, I understand your frustration, these are very exiting times for all of us.
            Good luck.

            • Filip47

              To Alexus.

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        deleted by author (wrong place)

    • Filip47

      -1

    • GreenWin

      alevvs – are you related to Joseph Priestley??

    • Jim Johnson

      So, I guess we should all stop our minds down and not let ourselves think about the possibility that it MIGHT work…because…well, exactly WHY should we do that? Or, exactly why do you think that YOU do that?