Rossi on the Zurich Meeting, University Report

Andrea Rossi was asked today on his JONP site, “when we can be told the name of the scientific journal that will publish the report you plan to present in Zurich on Sep 8.”

Here’s Rossi’s response:

Thank you for your important question.
My speak in Zurich will regard the report of the tests made on the 16th of July and on the 6th of August made basically for the product certification in course for the Hot Cats. This report will be published by thechnical and specialistic publications after the 9th of September, by the scientific journalists who will attend the meeting.
The rigorous publication deriving from the third party validation that we will make, as I said, within October by a University will be made by the professors who will make the validation, so I do know where it will be published. Please do not ask me which will be the University, I am under NDA and, by the way, three Universities are candidates for this work, should the one that has been chosen since now will retreat for any reason. We have to respect the rules and the decisions of the Universities, who, obviously, do not depend from us. I can anyway say that the test made on the 16th of July has been made with 6 professors of 2 Universities, but unofficially: it has been a preparatory test.
I am under a strict NDA for this test, whose results will be published in the context of the Certificator’s work, not of the Universities.

From what Rossi says here, and what he has said in the past, we can expect two reports — the first one will be the one which will be published in September which is based on testing done during the certification processs,and which Rossi will discuss at the Zurich Conference, and the second one will come from a University. Rossi here is exercising some caution as to which University will be publishing the second report. In the past he has mentioned Bologna, but now won’t say, mentioning three possible candidates.

Rossi has also said previously that the September report would be published in a “scientific magazine” — it looks like he is expecting journalists at the Zurich meeting to report on what goes on there. While that sounds likely, I’m not sure that we can entirely count on that happening, since we are still waiting for the Associated Press article to be published about the October 28th test last year, to which they sent a science reporter. We’ll have to see how it all pans out.

UPDATE: The University of Bologna’s Official Magazine published this statement today.

August 27, 2012

Statement by the Vice Rector for Research Dario Braga and the Director of the Department of Physics Paolo Capiluppi

Following the statements appeared in some media about an upcoming release from the University of Bologna of measurements results made on Mr. Andrea Rossi’s device called “E-cat”, the Vice-Rector for research, Professor Dario Braga, and the Director of the Department of Physics, Professor Paolo Capiluppi, reiterate to the press what was stated as early as January 2012, and that is that there is no formal relationship between the University of Bologna and the EFA srl and that there are not measures underway nor scheduled on Mr. Andrea Rossi’s device called “E-cat” at the University of Bologna.

The University of Bologna restates, however, its full readiness to make available its expertise and equipment to make measurements on the production of heat from the device, at the condition that the results are public and disclosed.”

  • georgehants

    From ChemistryWorld
    Crowdsourcing science site to launch
    28 August 2012 Andrew Turley
    Not all research can be used to solve real world problems. But much that can might be going to waste because the researchers involved aren’t in a position to exploit it. That’s the premise behind an internet start-up that aims to harness the collective brain power of the public to make the connections.
    Read at —-
    http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2012/08/crowdsourcing-science-site-launch

  • Haldor

    More on the Universities:
    ———————————————————————-
    JuJu
    August 27th, 2012 at 5:49 AM
    Yeah, so in situation where (for example) some political pressure may brake one university (from some Med country), there may step up another university from some northern lesser corrupt country. This is for sure right medicine for reactionary old structures.

    Andrea Rossi
    August 27th, 2012 at 10:15 AM
    Dear JuJu:
    Good intuition. Actually, I am strongly attracted from North Europe.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.
    ———————————————————————-

    So probably Sweden! With the assitance of some Bologna professors on personal title.
    My best guess for now.

    • alexvs

      I propose Norway. Is there an University at North Cape (71ºN)?

  • Filip47

    We’re gonna have to be patient.
    There are as many pro’s as contra’s.
    Rossi sure as hell knows how to entertain. I can’t say I’m bored! :)

  • Alexvs

    Oh. Another verse to add to Rossi’s sayings. As usual it produces contradictory intrepretations and a lot of useless chuckle.

    • dragonX

      + 1.

      • Barry

        minus 1

    • andrea

      I totally agree.. delay after delay.. what is the game here ? So in October (maybe) the testing with an unknown University, if one will agree.., then the pubblication ..
      I don’t think that in September will be any document from any indipendent institution but just from Rossi..
      and what happen to the first e-cat ?

  • GreenWin

    VALIDATION CORRUPTION

    This is IMO an ENORMOUS ado about, unfortunately – nothing. Why? Because the “validation” process, like the peer review process is essentially compromised. No university reliant on taxpayer funding or local, state, federal grants will participate in ANY validation of a disruptive technology. Much less a technology disruptive of the most powerful cartels on Earth.

    I hope I am wrong – but sincerely doubt it. Here’s proof: On May 22nd, 2012 Dr. Randell Mills released to the public six (6) independent validations from highly qualified scientists (e.g. MIT, Cal Tech) of his CIHT fuel cell. A device that produces 35 times the energy it requires and its fuel is nothing more than common tap water. !!!!!

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/electricity-generated-from-water-blacklight-power-announces-validation-of-its-scientific-breakthrough-in-energy-production-2012-05-22

    PEOPLE, what is wrong with the picture three months after this ASTONISHING announcement? There is dead silence in the popular media. Not a sound. Oh, maybe a peep or two… but essentially silence. Why?? Because the “media” is little more than a collective automaton toadying to its owners commands. Same with most academia, government, politics. The “insane oligarchs” as Robert Mockan is prone to say.

    We have hard evidence that the “validation” of the e-cat will be a charade no different than that of Blacklight Power’s CIHT cell. Validations mean absolutely nothing to the PTB – proving them hypocrites, and… well, since we throw the term around loosely in LENR – “scammers.” If bonafide validations had any real value or meaning to mainstream or scientific method – Randell Mills would be publicly lauded and trumpeted for a Nobel Prize. Instead there is only silence.

    Validations? What a load of horse pucky. Or is it pukie?

    • GreenWin

      Admin, I think this is an important post. I tried to remove any potential mod flags but it’s still getting sidelined. Thanks for your help!

      • Visitor

        +1

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        “sca mmers” I suspect, but quite often the reason isn’t apparent at all.

        • Visitor

          You should go and read and read carefully the 6 3d party reports,how were they carried, google the names whom have signed them and then you’ll understand that calling them “scammers” is far from reality.

          • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

            GreenWin was referring to those who might interfere with validation processes for their own purposes. I was highlighting the word that I think probably triggered moderation.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      If what you say is true, Rossi is following the one and only correct path for the e-cat. Once you and I can buy his device of the shelf somewhere, reality can no longer be denied.

      Mills should probably do the same as Rossi does, get some backing and produce devices ready to sell to the market.

      • Andrew Macleod

        Chatters mean nothing, what matters are working plants!

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        That does seem to be the only way open to Mills. Unfortunately it is usually when novel energy systems are approaching public release that accidents tend to happen most frequently. Rossi seems to enjoy some kind of permission or protection that may not automatically extend to others. Or perhaps he is just very careful.

        • GreenWin

          The Force is with him.

    • flo

      if it is real it will sell.

    • cx

      Its always bothered me that we don’t hear much about this tech. With all the validation reports done.

    • SteveS

      and amazingly .. the article reads > BlackLight has raised a total of $75 M for the development and commercialization of its breakthrough energy technology, and has license agreements with companies to use its patented commercial processes and systems in heating and electric power generation.

    • Sanjeev

      May be BLP should call a press conference and announce their discovery and validation reports to the press.

      Perhaps they should hire a celebrity and print advertisements of coming products. Half naked celebrities always work better.

      Publish their claims as ads (like steorn, but I know its a bad example).

      Hire a marketing MBA and start campaigns.

      In short, make some noise. These days no one will hear you unless you make efforts.

      • GreenWin

        The May 22nd announcement WAS a press conference. Apparently every science editor in the world is too good to run with the story. My point is simply to temper the whining from the “independent validation” thumpers. If your product frightens these overseers – energy products do – even with the Pope’s blessing you’ll get no traction with the orthodoxy.

    • Lu

      Greenwin,

      These weren’t independent validations by a long shot. While these are scientifically credentialed individuals with some associations (at one time) to respected organizations, they are hardly “highly qualified scientists.” Remember scientists are people, have to eat, and basically are a dime dozen. I looked at the reports on the Blacklight website (http://www.blacklightpower.com/publications see CIHT Validation Reports) and they appear for the most part to be observations of demos designed and operated by Blacklight. At best their reports are rubber stamping of results saying they cannot find anything wrong with what they observed. I wonder how much they got paid for their opinions?

      I don’t mean to rule Blacklight out but for me this kind of thing does not qualify as independent validation. A telling aspect of Blacklight is that they have collected $75M over the past 13 years (???) and still do not have a product with commercialization millions of $ and years away. I hope and expect something much better from Rossi than this.

    • HHiram

      “No university reliant on taxpayer funding or local, state, federal grants will participate in ANY validation of a disruptive technology.”

      Just more conspiracy-theory nonsense.

      There was plenty of funding for Internet and cell-phone technology research in the 1980s and 1990s, and they were hugely disruptive to the older news and telecom industries.

      Real scientists will not take you seriously when you sound like a tinfoil-hat-wearing lunatic. You are not helping LENR’s cause here…

      • Tony76

        Internet and cell phones were chaos and pathology inducing technologies.
        Check the society where you live for evidence.
        For the “insane oligarchs” chaos is all good – divide and rule.

        Any technology that uplifts humanity will be opposed. LENR is the ultimate in this respect.

      • GreenWin

        LOL HH, too hilarious! No conspiracy. Just good old fashioned payoffs. Or, is there no corruption in your world? If so, kindly provide details of what planet you’re from and a photo of your halo.

        • Filip47

          Don’t mix up conspiracy with corruption.
          There is possible a lobby against this or that.
          But a conspiracy is impossible to organize.
          The biggest example of a conspiracy I know was the nazi propaganda, lukely it didn’t succeed.
          Our planet is chaotic, a conspiracy is simply impossible to organize.

    • joe j

      Only the typical coldfusion mind could see conspiracy around every corner. No wonder most everyone view the field as a place for crackpots and paranoids and never give a serious thought about anything that goes on in the CF world much less try to suppress it. Who would waste their time suppressing that which they see only as a joke.

      • Andrew Macleod

        Patents denied because it’s against the current accepted theory. This is suppression and stupidity.

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        Joe, your post brings to mind the expression, “My mind is made up – please don’t confuse me with facts.” Your comments about ‘coldfusion minds’ being conspiracy theorists and by implication, ‘crackpots and paranoids’ are also insulting to many here.

        However, just on the remote possibility that you are actually open to new information, I suggest you take a look at the following PDF and see how reality stacks up against your cosy and simplistic world view:

        http://www.theorionproject.org/en/documents/Gary_V.pdf

        Some of the examples may be slightly dubious but the overwhelming direction of flow is damning, to say the least. Of course, I don’t actually expect information like this to make too much difference to the tenor of your posts.

    • Visitor

      It’s simple, that’s the way real sience revolutions works.
      After their announcement they went backstage to keep on working quietly.
      They do not response to any media requests nor to any investors proposals.
      They don’t seat all day long maintaining thier Blog instead of making true experiments.
      Didn’t anyone here ever asked himself how come that a man whom suppose to be very busy with scientific work can spent so much time on the internet???

      • jacob

        who is he and they and thier?

        • Visitor

          They=Blacklight
          Thier=Blacklight’s
          Spent so much time on the internet= Rossi

      • GreenWin

        Someone worked the timeline on the Rossi accusation and revealed @ 1.5M/message and an average of 10 messages/day – Rossi MIGHT spend 15 minutes per day answering queries. Or is this against your rules?

  • http://wp.me/p26aeb-4 ChemE

    Assuming DGT, Rossi and Celani all have devices with some degree of anomalous heat generation, my theory explains this as being similar to the implosion of matter/explosion of radiation and heat seen in Bose Einstein Condensates only it is now occurring within a void within a lattice at higher temperatures and pressures due to external forces acting on it.

    http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/bosenova.cfm

    My blog below summarizes this effect and makes more predictions.

    ChemE
    http://wp.me/p26aeb-4

  • Bruno

    The “technical journals” that Rossi refers to will only report on the September Zurich meeting if Rossi’s results are validated by an independent 3rd party. In other words, if someone from, say Siemens or National Instruments, stands at the lectern with him and says, “yes, we were there, the test was NOT run by Rossi and he’s telling the truth”, then it will be published. If the September Zurich meeting turns out to be another unsubstantiated “Rossi said” advertisement, then the scientific journals won’t publish. Why should they? Why should AP have reported the October 2011 test? After all, that test was conducted under great secrecy, not at all in the fashion promised by Rossi just two weeks prior.

    • Lu

      It sounds to me we will only get media reports of Rossi’s presentation in September. Look for such reports to appear in PESN and other “technical journals.” But as you say, this is merely more “Rossi Says” although credibility will be gained if as part of his presentation the names of the university professors and/or corporation involvement are mentioned and these are reputable entities. To me this is much more important than the actual results.

      Following this in October, some university is planning to do an independent repeat of the July/August tests. It would be interesting to know who is paying for this and also what the nature of the NDA is. It is probably in everyone’s best interest that the identity of this university to not be disclosed at this time. Afterwards this university will publish the results. Hopefully this won’t take too long but it seems to me it could take quite a while especially if there is some peer review involved or the results are controversial. These results may not be all that important other than for confirmation if the media reports in September contain the information I am hoping for as mentioned.

      I hope these later results are sufficient to claim Dick Smith’s $1M offer, which expires February 2013.

      All of this is just my opinion about what I am reading from Rossi.

      • daniel maris

        At a minimum we need named credible individuals involved in testing who have no other connection with Rossi – if he can’t meet that minimum, he will be bust come the end of October.

        Remember, he did say he was preparing factories to produce the domestic E Cat heater. Where have they gone? He needs to give us something credible to cling to. There are in reality very few Rossi loyalists – most people are simply enthusiastic about LENR and want to see it succeed, especially since the endorsements of NASA, DARPA and other important agencies.

    • GreenWin

      Great secrecy?? Euro journalists covered the event in detail. Some 30 people attended – some, industry scientists. The only “secret” was the name of the Final Test client probably military that demands “secrecy.”

      Besides, we have now hard proof that “validations” of disruptive energy technology are meaningless. We have Mills’ CIHT six validations from impeccable scientists at the world’s most prestigious institutions – and ZERO mainstream media. This proves beyond doubt the ineptitude of the press – or ineptitude of the press’ overseers.

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        Not ineptitude if keeping the herd in the dark is the object. Just the opposite in fact.

      • Marc Stone

        Ever heard the term once bitten, twice shy?

        Well, the media was bitten in 89

        • Barry

          I think there is truth in that.

          • Tony76

            There is a massive difference between a guy holding up a test tube claiming a possible breakthrough (89) and a 1MW reactor industrial demonstration (2011).

            “once bitten, twice shy” can only apply if you believe that main stream news is completely dumb about science. In which case they should retire from reporting altogether.

            • GreenWin

              No Tony76, you’re being too hard on the prissy press. They should continue to report stories like Anthony Wiener and the Casey Anthony story. The Enquirer and the AP are little different anymore.

        • jacob

          ABC news was forced to sell out in the 1980′s,so it could keep it’s broadcasting licenses, and all news media has to abide by strict guidelines,that is why LENR does not get coverage ,and only will if the owners agree to it.

          Much advertizing revenue is at stake ,as well as the broadcasting licenses,the owners of the media know what possible fallout going against the wishes of big oil = big pharm could have on their bottomline.

          • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

            Yes, that’s the lever – but who exactly is on the other end of it?

            • jacob

              those who want to keep things as they are.

  • Robyn

    Great clarification.

    I think Rossi is the real deal, but I don’t think I actually care if he is or not.

    There are plenty of reasons to be skeptical of him, but I also don’t think it actually matters if I am.

    LENR is proving to be something real. It’s not clear what exactly it is or will become. But the disgracing of Fleischmann and Pons is now itself discredited. The “anomalous heat effect” is reproduceablem and real.

    If Rossi turns out to be a deadend it won’t change the overall outcome.

    • dragonX

      “If Rossi turns out to be a dead end it won’t change the overall outcome.”

      I think you are right, but if Rossi is dead end, it will take another generation (25+ years) until we get to Hot Cat grade claims again.

      Everybody should hope that all skeptics logical assessments are wrong, if not prepare for decades of LENR slow increment.

      • Jim Johnson

        Why? Would you like to offer any sort of cause and effect reasoning to substantiate your view? Or do you just like making dramatic declarations?

        • dragonX

          I don’t even bother to answer you Jim Johnson, as the last 2 times I did, admin moderated my answers and then delete them with no reason what-so-ever (no profanity, no mean discussions). The only reason is apparently my opinions towards Rossi and the facts and arguments that I put in those replies to you. He is BOTHERED by that. So it is not fair to be attacked by you and then not being able to answer you in full.

      • Ivan_cev

        I still have hope in Celani

        • Ivan_cev

          and I will like prof McKubre and Storms and others to stop paying with electrolysis and palladium, and try to replicate Celani.
          As Nickel and Hydrogen shows many orders of magnitude anomalous heat that palladium.

  • Methusela

    The latest Passerini post is interesting: http://22passi.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/la-preziosa-opera-di-protezione-del.html

    In this he implies that someone or thing is being used as a lightning rod to distract the ‘sceptics’ who are attacking him.

    • Renzo

      The post is rather obscure but yours is an interesting interpretation

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      Maybe Rossi himself is the distraction – while someone else gets on with the real job? That would certainly put many things in an entirely new light… Possibly we are way deeper in the ‘compost’ than we ever imagined.

      • GreenWin

        Peter, you would make an excellent MI5 analyst. What you propose is an Enigma, wrapped in a paradox, inside a conundrum. Well done.

        • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

          Possibly not quite that complex, GW, but it would imply a ‘Project’ of great breadth and complexity. And the existence of more ‘good guys’ with a lot of power, working together at a very high level, than have so far been evident.

          At this point I only put the idea forward as a possibility for consideration – but it would explain many things.

          • tappanjack

            PR: I think we need to remember that Mr Rossi is reporting results to Siemens, which would be the exact match of what you have described.

            • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

              If there is anything at all in such a scenario there would be players at many levels and degrees of awareness of the game. The CEOs and top executives of various enlightened corporations (if that’s not an oxymoron) would be at or near the apex I think.

            • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

              Tappanjack, I’ve replied to your post but my comment has gone into moderation for some reason.

          • GreenWin

            Frankly, at the risk of out-of-school commentary, your scenario makes human sense. I do have it on good authority that such a project is forbidden without a catalyst. It appears with Rossi, one has been found.

            • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

              Perhaps the fact that we really will run out of oil in the not very distant future might be a suitable catalyst? After all, the comfortable lives of the rich are actually more vulnerable to the loss of this particular energy source than the lives of the very poor.

              Also the prospect of a new corporate profit source running to gigabuck levels might help sway minds!

            • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

              I’m pretty sure that none of the above will extend to small scale systems such as home heating/power or vehicle propulsion though. That might be the ‘problem’ with Mill’s technology and others – they are not offering inexpensive replacements for existing steam generation systems.

            • GreenWin

              Indeed there is likely harsh opposition to distributed energy. However, the “gigabucks” come from the proposition of manufacturing 3-4 billion residential and light industry units. Sale, installation and maintenance contracts represent a significant new revenue stream for “energy” companies with vision.

              E-cat “fuel rods” could be direct replacements for fission rods – preserving old grid service to some industry and residences (if competitive.)

              The “greening” of the planet by removing millions of miles of old transmission cable, outdated dams, ending mountain top removal, replacing wood burning fires, unwinding deep water drilling and… !! abundant energy limits reasons for resource/religious conflict.

              BTW, our feathered friends, birds will appreciate not having to fly across landscapes littered with giant food processors! Hello, Audubon??

              We are on the good path.

  • Sanjeev

    LENR – It’s Alive!
    http://cleantechauthority.com/lenr-its-alive/

    I do not know how mainstream this site is, but google marked it as news.

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      Good report, apart from the error regarding Defkalion and palladium. Quite a well organised site, but no real indication about how big they are. The fact that they have a physical address in Austin, TX means that it is probably not just the usual wordpress blog run by one person.

    • Barry

      Good one, thanks Sanjeev.

  • Fyodor

    It sounds like he is saying that he’ll describe the September report at the conference and that reporters will write about what he says. This is worlds apart from formal publication in a peer-reviewed scientific publication. He’s also not committing to releasing the actual report – just that he’ll talk about it.

    He also has previously said the UBol would be publishing a validation which seems to contradict Ubol’s explicit disavowal of him.

    • Chris

      You don’t seem to have read this properly.

      He says that publication will be up to those who carry out the testing.

      The intent of Unibo running tests is a thing of the past. I’m glad it won’t be them because people would be more suspicious of them, even without the kind of jokes made by JREF about Bologna, more seriously because Focardi and Levi are formally staff there. Rossi has already said Focardi won’t be in on it because it wouldn’t be independent and third party, Levi is Focardi’s academic “son” and became very involved in following Rossi’s aork too. Nah, not Unibo, thank goodness.

      • Fyodor

        And I’m saying that he has previously identified UniBo as the party that would be validating. Maybe it’s changed or maybe he’s just covering himself after misrepresenting his relationship with UniBo.

        • Ged

          That was a long time ago. And as I remember, he didn’t say it was definitely decided yet. Seems he has gone with someone else, thankfully.

          • Fyodor

            This is what Rossi said on August 11th two weeks ago. When Unibo repudiated him he changed his story again.

            INFORMATION:
            AFTER THE LEAKAGE MADE BY AN INSIDER WITH THE NICKNAME “CURES” REGARDING THE TESTS COMPLETED ON JULY 16TH, WHICH HAD TO REMAIN UNDER NDA, I HAVE TO INFORM THAT:
            THE TEST MADE ON JULY 16TH WILL BE REPEATED OFFICIALLY WITHIN THE HALF OF OCTOBER 2012 BY THE UNIVERSITY OF BOLOGNA, AND THE RESULTS WILL BE PUBLISHED BY THE SAME UNIVERSITY.

  • dragonX

    Another commenter asked a question along the same lines, “How consistant is your ability to create large amounts of excess power? For example, if you made 100 E-Cat devices and began testing, how many would achieve the desired ratios of output to input power? My gut feeling is that your answer would be greater than 90, which would be wonderful. As you know, the original work in LENR was shot down because of the lack of ability to reproduce results.”

    Rossi responded, “Our E-Cats are perfectly reproducible and their performance is standard. Out of 100 we guarantee that 100 respect the performance data.
    Should not be so we could not go deliver in Greece a 1 MW plant, made by 300 E-Cats.”

  • JerryB

    Would really like to see MIT on this list, the Media would be all over this hotcat demo.

    • Barry

      I think one of the problems between (the open minded ones at) MIT and A Rossi is, Rossi does not share his technological findings. Where Peter Hagelstein shares his findings just like Prof. Celani and those working together as a whole. I must admit I admire Rossi’s efforts at pushing CF through into the marketplace. I hope he comes through, but the CF collective group gives me faith in LENR as a growing, future technology.

    • GreenWin

      Naw jerry. Media is a little poodle defecating and peaing on the public. Poodles love their dog food and know if they wanna eat, they gotta pooh. Unfortunately that gets on us. Likewise MIT is a hot fusion house and they too wanna eat – at the public trough.

  • Barry

    2 questions, what does NAD stand for?
    The second is a little off topic. Prof. Celani is measuring 10w from his device. How much COP is that? Thanks, Barry

    • admin

      Hi Barry — NDA is a non-disclosure agreement; COP is the ratio of energy in to energy out, so you’d need to find the input energy and total output from Celani’s device to get the answer.

    • Martin

      NDA=
      Non Disclosure Agreement

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      If input = 42w, output=52-62w (10-20w of excess heat on average)
      then COP = ~1.24-1.48

      However Celani will soon have a self-sustaining cell. COP would increase noticeably (not infinite, because some input energy will still be necessary to start the reaction and/or maintain it).

      • Jim Johnson

        Is there a term to refer to the “net” energy gain (output minus input?)

        • Ivan Mohorovicic

          In this field it’s usually informally called “excess heat” or more specifically “excess rate”, “excess power”, etc.

          • Barry

            Thanks all (NDA not NAD). I’m just trying to get an idea of how powerful Prof. Celani’s device is. The idea that he can turn it off and on with a flip of a switch and travel it around is quite impressive. If it has significant COP it would be phenomenal. Also think he’s quite deserving for his openness.

  • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

    “tests made on the 16th of July and on the 6th of August made basically for the product certification in course for the Hot Cats”

    It is supposedly only a couple of months since the ‘leaked’ ‘hot cat’ photo was made – a crude prototype made of tube offcuts and fireclay. How could this system possibly now be undergoing ‘product certification’ when at most it can be barely beyond the prototype stage? It just doesn’t add up – I think we may be back in robot factory territory.

    I suspect that Rossi is attempting some ‘perception management’ here, but for what purpose I have no idea. I guess we only have a month or so before we find out (or will we…?).

    • Martin

      This is indeed a very good aspect. It’s like the Wright Brothers would have seeked for a license for passenger transportation.

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        That’s a good way of looking at it. It would simply not be possible within the time frames we have been led to believe.

        Either the hot cat system is much older, and hence more advanced, than we have been led to believe, or we observers are being treated like mushrooms in some other respect – again.

        • GreenWin

          “…treated like mushrooms…” True. But on the bright side, I noted Chanterelle shrooms going for $35/lb just yesterday. At my weight I feel oddly valuable!

          • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

            GreenWin – I hope you are enjoying the, er… compost!

            • GreenWin

              NLOL! Near LOL.

            • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

              It’ll never catch on!

            • GreenWin

              Ah well, not to be acronymonious about it!

            • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

              That is a LOL! But sadly your excellent neologism is probably doomed, too!

        • Ged

          It’s possible it’s a lot older than we know. Rumor of it started months ago, which is in line with a timeline for getting the product to a certifier to take a look at it. Question is also what certification are we talking about for the hot cat? For the 1 MW that was an industrial certification… but what is the hot cat’s?

      • Andrew Macleod

        My really….. It’s more like someone going for a comercial passenger Licence in the 1920s after science has denied that the wright bros even flew.

    • Jim Johnson

      “tests made on the 16th of July and on the 6th of August”

      > What is the release date of the “hot cat” photo? Was there any information about when the photo was taken?

      “made basically for the product certification in course for the Hot Cats”

      > Would certifiers, licensees, or the inventor reasonably accept the start of certification with anything less than the “production run” product?

      > How long *would* it take to move from the prototype (if you could call it that) to something that could enter the start of certification?

      > Could Rossi be mistaking the use of “certification”?

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        I think it may have been Renzo who said that the meta data in the image file dated it to July 17th, so less than 6 weeks ago.

        “Would certifiers, licensees, or the inventor reasonably accept the start of certification with anything less than the “production run” product?”

        No, they wouldn’t. Also I don’t think that the simple ‘box in a box’ design of the industrial e-cat core would be adaptable to an 800C core. Either huge pressure would be required to prevent water coolant boiling, or another primary coolant – silicone oil, glycols or possibly even liquid metal – would be required. I honestly can’t see development of an entirely new multi-core design, and construction of a production prototype taking less than 2 years, even with tens of employees on the job.

        • Jim Johnson

          Sounds like a valid analysis to me. Your point about the heat and pressure are the clinchers. And quick and dirty isn’t going to cut it for industrial consumers. With respect to duration, I’m used to Silicon Valley product lifecycles. However, we’re not talking about buggy beta code. Maybe at *dream* minimum, with lots of crash cash, and great starting facilities (imagine Intel), maybe six months. Only I can’t really make myself believe that.

          It would be interesting to consider the bill of materials and construction work breakdown structure for such a product. IF the hot cat really produces 1200C, then SOMEONE will build an industrial grade, multi-core reactor for such. Maybe something for LENRC…

          • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

            At that kind of temp, its possible you would be looking at a plant roughly comparable with the type of mini-reactor used to power some ships and submarines.

            I suppose quite a bit of useful technology could be borrowed from these, if any decent info is available, but imagine the design and prototyping hours that must have gone into one of those units.

            I once did a 2-year stint helping to design a military 50KVA generator, along with about 30 other employees and contractors, and the prototype still hadn’t been finalised when I left!

          • Ged

            I think all this talk is just about a single core, not a multi core system. Saying it produces heat and no harmful byproducts. That’s not hard to do, and fits in with the timeline as far as I know.

          • clovis

            GUYS,
            you make too much out of this me think, Its a heat ex changer.nothing more complex than that,
            the basic elements are the core and somthing to support it, smile

            • Ged

              Yep, a pretty simplistic setup! We aren’t etching transistors with UV light or anything.

            • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

              mmm – a slightly pressurised unit running at c.120C may have been relatively simple, but 800-1200C is a different matter. Unless Rossi goes for something really primitive, such as blowing air through the core, then passing the hot air through a heat exchanger, this has to be much more advanced engineering. Even assuming the coolant will not reach anything close to the core temperature, he’s got to deal with either far higher pressures or a non-water primary coolant and an ‘oil boiler’ or similar.

              The problem as I see it is that given that only a production-ready unit can be accepted for certification procedures, that leaves a couple of choices. Either Rossi is intending to use the hot cat core singly in a domestic-type heater (very strict and lengthy certification, and probably interference from vested interests), or he plans to build ‘industrial’ e-cats using multiple hot cat cores.

              To qualify as a ‘product’ any such devices would have to be finalised ready for installation c/w multiple-redundant safety circuits and mechanical devices AND a theory of operation that precludes either thermal runaway or emission of radiation under any conceivable circumstances.

              As anyone familiar with my posts will know, I am not generally a Rossi sceptic (although I did kick up a bit about the Florida factory story, and claims about certification of a home boiler), but I think we are being led a merry dance over ‘certification’ for some reason.

            • clovis

              Hey Ged.
              Great minds think alike, sorry for cross post.

  • Ivan Mohorovicic

    I speculate that the three candidate universities are:

    - Polytechnic University of Turin
    - University of Bologna
    - University of Uppsala

    • dragonX

      Please cross off Bologna from that list and wait for the denial statements from the other 2 universities.

      • timycelyn

        Recent addition to JONP blog:

        JuJu
        August 27th, 2012 at 5:49 AM
        Yeah, so in situation where (for example) some political pressure may brake one university (from some Med country), there may step up another university from some northern lesser corrupt country. This is for sure right medicine for reactionary old structures.

        Andrea Rossi
        August 27th, 2012 at 10:15 AM
        Dear JuJu:
        Good intuition. Actually, I am strongly attracted from North Europe.
        Warm Regards,
        A.R.

        So, this would imply your three nominee unis may need revision. Uppsala is on the list beyond a doubt. Bologna an also- ran at best. Looks like we have some dark horses in there as well, maybe all 3 options are ‘Northern European.’

      • Francesco CH

        Am I the only one able to read the statement from UNIBO
        c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y, or not?

        • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

          Francesco, there are a few careful phrases and some ‘weasel words’ (i.e., possibly designed to mislead) in there. In particular “there is no formal relationship between the University of Bologna and the EFA srl” (which is no longer involved). I wonder if this is what you are suggesting we ‘read carefully’?

        • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

          “.. and that there is no measure in place or there are in the equipment program called “E-cat” Mr. Andrea Rossi at the University of Bologna.”

          This seems a bit mangled in English – perhaps you have seen the Italian version? If so your interpretation would be appreciated.

          • GreenWin

            Maybe they mean they have no plans to measure Mr. Rossi’s equipment? For which I am gratified.

          • Francesco CH

            There is nothing to add, except that a calorimetric measure on the E-Cat will be perforned at the University of Bologna. On October, data will be released.

            What I write is compatible to this:

            “The University of Bologna restates, however, its full readiness to make available its expertise and equipment to make measurements on the production of heat from the device, at the condition that the results are public and disclosed.””

            Read it: there is “full readiness…to make measurements on the production of heat”.

  • PersonFromPorlock

    “…we are still waiting for the Associated Press article to be published about the October 28th test last year, to which they sent a science reporter.”

    Sometimes, silence is deafening.

    • dragonX

      So how much time AP needs to write a small article about October 28th test? Answer: less than a week if they really want to write something about it. Maybe 1-2 months if they are lazy or just very slow.

      10 months and counting? Let’s accept the fact that AP will not write about October 28th test.

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        At least not until Svensson decides that it is safe to creep out of the woodwork with an ‘I was there when history was made’ story. Its about all he could do to salvage anything from the fiasco of his attendance at the demo.

      • JerryB

        AP / Associated Press – if you do not know is a establishment news out-let, they publish news in support of big oil, and political gain.

        • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

          Of course. What is surprising is that Rossi didn’t seem to know that – he generally appears to be rather too world-wise to be taken in by Svensson as he seems to have been.

          • GreenWin

            I think Svensson is unqualified for this anyway: “Technology Writer for The Associated Press, covering telecommunications, consumer electronics.”

            This is not a Silicon Valley story. It’s science, and nuclear physics in particular. AP also paid for a photographer to travel to Bologna. Svensson’s boss is Kit Frieden, AP Health and Science Editor.

            In March of this year Gary Pruitt former CEO McClatchy Newspapers became head of AP. He claims to be a First Amendment advocate. For non-Yanks, this Amendment guarantees the right of all citizens to engage in and express free speech. It is the Amendment that the Supreme Court ruled allowed the NY Times and Washington Post to publish the classified Pentagon Papers. The Court said it is the DUTY of a free press to act as guardians by overseeing government and its potential abuses.

            It would be fascinating to hear Pruitt explain why the AP writer/photographer team failed to file ANY story after attending the October 28th demo in Bologna.

  • Renzo

    Today the university of Bologna has issued an official statement:

    http://www.magazine.unibo.it/Magazine/Notizie/2012/08/27/E-cat_non_ci_sono_misure_in_atto.htm

    “E-cat: there are not measures underway

    August 27, 2012

    Statement by the Vice Rector for Research Dario Braga and the Director of the Department of Physics Paolo Capiluppi

    Following the statements appeared in some media about an upcoming release from the University of Bologna of measurements results made on Mr. Andrea Rossi’s device called “E-cat”, the Vice-Rector for research, Professor Dario Braga, and the Director of the Department of Physics, Professor Paolo Capiluppi, reiterate to the press what was stated as early as January 2012, and that is that there is no formal relationship between the University of Bologna and the EFA srl and that there are not measures underway nor scheduled on Mr. Andrea Rossi’s device called “E-cat” at the University of Bologna.

    The University of Bologna restates, however, its full readiness to make available its expertise and equipment to make measurements on the production of heat from the device, at the condition that the results are public and disclosed.”

    What can we do of all this? Daniele Passerini on his blog has commented with a smile “one must be able to grasp undertones…”

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      “not …….. at the University of Bologna”

      Maybe elsewhere?

      • Renzo

        I thought the same, sure enough the tests were done at Rossi’s facility.

        I find it harder to explain “there is no formal relationship between the University of Bologna and the EFA srl”

        • Ivan Mohorovicic

          If professors from the University of Bologna are directly involved with Rossi (for example as private consultants, or as members of an independent testing group including professors from different universities), there would not be any formal relationship between the university and EFA srl; I don’t think there are laws or regulations preventing this, as long as they don’t claim to be working on behalf of their university.

          • dragonX

            If Rossi has something amazing to offer, why would Unibo management will distance from him?

            If Unibo management distance from Rossi, why tenure professors will risk career (pensions, benefits, respect, MONEY) to defy Unibo management over Rossi?

            Something is not right here… and sometimes in December after all delays and denials are complete, some of us will have to recognize that we were served BS for the past 2 years.

            What is more likely to happen? Energy revolution or a small BS guy being called for what it is?

            And I am not a LENR skeptic and not even a Rossi patho-skeptic, but downgraded slowly from Rossi hopeful to skeptic. Sorry, but enough is enough.

            • Stanny Demesmaker

              DragonX,

              You always seem to forget that Rossi doesn’t have any debt to us. He doesn’t need to convince us, he needs to convince his partners/clients. And that’s working pretty well for him. I am still searching for the first businesspeople that worked with him calling him a liar and cheater. I don’t hear that. The only people who say that are the ones here, who will never be convinced …

              Keep looking at the big picture, don’t lose your focus on the little things.

            • Renzo

              Unibo has excellent reason to cover its involvement with Rossi until the tests are done because they have been under very strong pressure by patho-skeptics both into the university and from outside. They want to divert the pressure and work in peace.

            • Jim Johnson

              “Enough is enough”…for what? Are you going to stop posting? Some of your questions and insights are valuable. But unwarranted negative assumptions and excessive expressions of personal frustration damage your credibility.

              “Sorry”…about what, that the universe wasn’t able to convince you? How did you place yourself at the center of that particular universe?

            • Ged

              Unibo management isn’t trying to distance, they are just speaking the truth. Notice how at the end they continue to state their door is fully open to Rossi if he wishes. That’s not distancing in any respect.

            • Visitor

              I wouldn’t say there will be no energy revolution.
              There would be for sure but not sure from Rossi’s E-Cat.
              We have 2 promising silenced company with proven tech moving towards commercial product without too much noise. (Energtics Tech and BlackLight P).

              The method of all the others is – Make lot of noise then “They” will notice you and buy you out as they done with others.

              Unfortunately for Rossi and others like Inteligentry , “They” haven’t came up with proposals yet.
              (“They” = The oil big pockets sharks).

              Until there is no answer to my question -”Why aren’t you starting to save lives right now?” Rossi, in my POV, is in a “Wait” status.

            • GreenWin

              Visitor, can your grasp the idea – e-cat technology is still in development. That means it cannot be used yet to “save lives.”

              And again, so it sinks in, we have given hot fusion scientists billions$$ for 60 years because they promised “unlimited, clean energy.” Where is it?? Where’s our money?? Did the human race get ripped off??

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        If I were Rossi, I would also choose another Uni simply because he has way too many ties with Bologna. They could never conduct an “independent” validation.

    • daniel maris

      I think we must take that as a no then from Bologna .

    • dragonX

      Common, somebody needs to spin this piece of UniBo denial and give us (Rossi fans) the 180 degrees interpretation of this :-) … laughable.

      “Now I’m sure Unibo will do the tests because they said NO”…. how crazy and wishful thinking we can be????

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        ‘Us’ Rossi fans? I’m not sure that some of your recent comments (or this one) would have naturally placed you in that category, dragonx. Sometimes it seems that you might be sailing under something of a flag of convenience?

        The fact is however that there do seem to be loopholes in the UniBo statement that might allow for, say, a 3rd party to commission tests on an e-cat (perhaps one belonging to them?). On balance though I think it would probably be safer to assume that it means pretty much what it says, at least as far as the establishment of the uni is concerned.

        • GreenWin

          Hey Peter, you smell that? It’s a kind of dugfromnewjersey smell.

          • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

            Now you happen to mention it… Unfortunately not the only old wine (whine?) posting here in a new bottle.

  • daniel maris

    Well, let’s wait and see what happens. He is committing here to October tests by scientists whose results will be published. If that doesn’t happen we know with near certainty he’s a scammer as this has now been going on a long time.

    However, I remain optimistic he has something real. Let’s await developments in a positive frame of mind.

    • dsm

      Daniel

      I am in great admiration for your on-going patience. You really are a very loyal person.

      Cheers DSM