The Cures Effect — Will it Help or Hinder the E-Cat Cause? [Updated: Cures Identified]

Andrea Rossi has now acknowledged that the information leaked by ‘Cures’ is authentic, and that this person is indeed an insider. In a post on the Journal of Nuclear Physics, he makes this statement:

INFORMATION:
AFTER THE LEAKAGE MADE BY AN INSIDER WITH THE THE NICKNAME “CURES” REGARDING THE TESTS COMPLETED ON JULY 16TH, WHICH HAD TO REMAIN UNDER NDA, I HAVE TO INFORM THAT: THE TEST MADE ON JULY 16TH WILL BE REPEATED OFFICIALLY WITHIN THE HALF OF OCTOBER 2012 BY THE UNIVERSITY OF BOLOGNA AND THE RESULTS WILL BE PUBLISHED BY THE SAME UNIVERSITY.
ANDREA ROSSI

Was Cures working at the University of Bologna, or for Leonardo? I don’t think we can tell. It is significant, I think, that an official test from the University of Bologna is mentioned here, with the results being published by the University, rather than Leonardo Corp.

I don’t know if this leak invalidates the first testing that was done in July, but it could be that the leak will have the effect of strengthening Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat cause. For many months there have been people concerned that Rossi has said very much, but shown nothing. With this leak, there seems to be somebody, and something (the photo) that essentially confirms many of the things that Rossi has been saying.

Of course you cannot validate a technology based on a photograph or even data posted on a blog, but what we have here is another piece of evidence, perhaps the strongest yet, that the E-Cat is what Rossi has been saying it is.

I notice that as of Saturday morning, the Cures photo and comments are still listed on the Cobra forum, so apparently he hasn’t been ordered to remove them.

So what does the ECW readership think — will this leakage help or hinder the E-Cat cause? What might be the long term effect of this affair?

UPDATE: Here is Andrea Rossi commenting on the identification of Cures as Domenico Fioravaniti

Dear Antonella:
About the tests: the precise dates will be decided in an agreement that we should reach at the beginning of September: obviously we have to accept their needs.
About Cures: He has been identified as Domenico Fioravanti, it appears that the data from the test made on July 16th comes from him. If it is true, it is due to an excess of enthusiasm for the results, that have been obtained in a test directed by him and by 6 Professors from two Universities. The data had to remain confidential, but he could not help to talk about this event and the remarkable results.
He is making these tests as a Consultant of a military Customer of us and now probably he will have problems for the leakages, even if I do not think it has been so important: sooner or later the same data will be published. I knew Ing Fioravanti when he was a Student of the Politecnico di Torino ( the Engineering University of Turin, Italy) because he was making a research for Prof. Cesare Boffa (one of the best Engineering Prof. of the time) regarding the new technologies of Electrostatic Precipitators. It was the year 1976 and even if I was 26 years old, I was at the times considered an expert of the sector, so I gave to Domenico Fioravanti much papers I had wrote and he also sisited the electrostatic precipitators I manufactured in my factory of Caponago (Milan, Italy). The we never met again. After 35 years (!!!) I received an email from him in the blog of the Journal, in which he congratulated for the E-Cat, and for me has been a delighting surprise to hear from him again. I contacted him privately and he explained to me that he was a Colonel Engineer, expert of missiles tests. One year later, when with our Military Customer we had to choose a neutral Consultant for the test of the well known plant of 1 MW, I proposed Fioravanti, whom they knew very well, because he wrrked with NATO, with the Pentagon at the highest levels and always for engineering connected with thermodynamic tests. So we all have been glad to choose him.
His intellectual integrity and his knowledge of the matter has allowed a job that has been considered highly professional from all the parties involved.
This is it.
Warm Regards,
A.R.


  • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

    If I had an E-Cat capable of putting out 13 kW with forced convective cooling, I would test the stability of the system and the ability of the materials within it to withstand high temperatures by running it without the forced convective cooling in the open as is being done with the one in the photograph. I think people have taken the 13 kW number too literally and attempted to apply it to the system being run as shown. 13 kW is the power output that would result if it was supplied coolant. The temperature of the coolant out would be less than the quoted temperatures depending on the flow rate. They are no doubt running this test at a lower power output but higher temperatures. It capable of putting out 13 kW, but in this test the power out is lower and the temperatures higher.

    • Jeff

      That makes perfect sense to me. But it isn’t what “Cures” said. As machine-translated by Google, Cures wrote:

      “Power radiated by the two inner and outer walls considered equal to a total of 13.39 kW …”

      He was describe the facts of the image at the time he wrote this – I don’t want to quote too much for copyright reasons, but you can click over to the page and see for yourself. In context, it does appear to be a description of what was actually happening, rather than what might happen in principle.

  • Jeff

    OK, I’m really having a problem with this.

    As described, the resistance heating element is generating about 3.5KW. So, go to Google Images and search “electric stove heating element”. A large everyday stove element dissipates around 3KW to 3.5KW. Even out in the free air, it glows a yellow/orange color not very different from open end of the device shown in Cures’ image. Other web searching confirms that electric stove elements can produce temps in the free air of 1100C or higher.

    The black putty material is described as being ~800C, and this is confirmed by the fact that it’s not glowing. So it’s a pretty good heat insulator.

    But the device is supposedly producing 13KW. That’s the equivalent of not just one but four large electric stove elements, all confined in a small, well-insulated space. If this was really true, the device would get far, far hotter than 1100 or 1200 C – immensely hotter.

    But that’s not happening here, first because they say it’s 1200C, and second because the difference would be obvious from the color (it’s a pretty good approximation of a black body radiator, so its color depends only on its temp) … and finally, because steel melts around 1500C.

    This just makes me want to cry. I so, so, so want this to be true. But it doesn’t look true.

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      As for the color, let’s remember than different video cameras/photo cameras might have widely different infrared (heat) sensitivities. I don’t know how sensitive is in this aspect the Nikon Coolpix s5100 used to take this photo. As an additional information, the photo has an equivalent 35mm-film focal length of 140mm, so it was pretty zoomed. Heat haze is visible on the top part of the core.

      • Jeff

        That’s a good point about the lack of color fidelity in various digital devices. But the melting argument is challenging. It is just difficult to believe they could dissipate 13,000 watts in such a small, well-insulated space, using materials that melt at 1500C.

        Did you understand how they are measuring the power, i.e., how did they come up with the 13,000W number?

        • Stephen Taylor

          Jeff, Ivan,,
          I Agree with both of you. Remember Cures said something about “bright white center”, it wasn’t clear to me but if the reactor can be bright white that will, of course, indicate a higher temperature. Oddly, the exterior pipe near the edge where the small bit of insulation is missing is a cooler orange color, he said it is cooler there and it is. Seems odd. Why so much cooler at the mostly insulated exterior pipe edge?
          We wait for data. We thirst for data. Only real scientific/engineering data can answer what (if anything) is going on.
          The AHE is real. I have quite high confidence in the volumes of testing and data regarding the effect. The commercial development on the other hand is quite mysterious and uncertain for reasonable reasons. The venture capitalists and mysterious customers will have to continue to risk their assets. For me as possible taxpayer in this it can only be a few pennies well spent.
          Come the data, please! UniBo to the rescue, please! We wait again.

          Steve

          • Jeff

            The device shown is a pretty good approximation of a black-body radiator, so its color is dependent only on temperature. A black-body radiator that shines “bright white” has a temperature far higher than the melting point of steel. Even 3000 K. is still noticeably orange. You can find information about this in any good physics book or many web sites.

            Temperatures like these require pretty advance technology; even the melting point of tungsten is only 3422C, and I don’t believe welder’s putties or similar material can survive. You’re getting into the realm of ceramics only. The packaging technologies shown in the image don’t appear to come close to what would be required for such high temperatures. Nor, to the best of my knowledge, has Leonardo or Defkalion directly claimed such high temperatures.

    • Robert Mockan

      Assuming what we are being told about the power levels is correct,
      the only possible answer to your question given thermal physics is that the equilibrium established between the heat leaving the system under test, (by thermal conduction and thermal radiation through the thermal insulation), and the heat being generated within the system, results in the measured temperatures.

      If there were more thermal insulation to contain the heat, then what you suggest about the temperature going higher would be correct.

      It can seem confusing, but that is how the physics works.

    • Francesco CH

      “The black putty material is described as being ~800C”

      No. It is the E-Cat, that at that precise moment worked at more than 800°C.

      • Jeff

        There is a follow-up comment by Cures on the Italian blog that Google machine-translates as follows: “At the time of the picture, the average temperature of the external surface was of 801 ° C with a local peak of 873 ° C. Inner surface temperature from 1100 ° C to over 1200 ° C.”

        I probably confused matters when I said “…black putty material”. In fact I merely meant the external surface. I was only trying to accurately paraphrase what Cures had stated, but I see that I didn’t do a very good job.

        • Francesco CH

          JEFF, I’M SORRY YOU ARE RIGHT ! ! !

          You read well, I misread.

  • Jeff

    One thing I don’t understand.

    Imagine this device at rest (room temperature) with no LENR in progress. Now you turn on the electricity, generating about 3500W inside the outer steel cylinder. Obviously, it will get very hot in there.

    At some point, the reaction begins. In time, the total power dissipation goes 13KW+ as described. So the LENR is generating 9 to 10KW.

    Now, why not unplug the wires and remove all doubt? After all, 3500W was sufficient to start the reaction, and you’re now producing several times that much power from the LENR. If 3500W of heat was sufficient to start it, why is 9KW not enough to sustain it?

    • Robert Mockan

      I posted this recently elsewhere but no reply from
      anybody, that leads me to think nobody understood that what I
      was talking about is exactly what you are talking
      about.

      Now that Rossi is using direct thermal input, it is
      puzzling why he is not using the LENR thermal energy itself
      to sustain the reaction.

      Presently the coupling efficiency
      at the system level of input energy to output energy is
      appalling. What does this mean? The specific heat energy in
      1.5 grams of catalyst he says he is using in the high temp
      E-Cat is less than 800 joules at 1000 degree C. Now keep in
      mind that power in watts is joules per second. When Rossi
      says, just for example, that he needs to input 3000 watts of
      power (electrical or thermal, same thing) every 30 minutes
      to keep the E-Cat running, he is saying that it needs (3000
      joules/second)*(60 seconds/minute)*(30 minute) of energy ,that is equal
      to 5,400,000 joules.

      Note the energy ratio here, 6750 to 1!

      Obviously Rossi is using thermal input energy to do much
      more than maintain, or vary, the catalyst internal heat
      energy. Celani has shown that internal heat energy of his
      hydrogen loaded wires is sufficient to cause LENR, and
      thermal power generation, for many hours. Rossi most likely
      can improve his E-Cat again by using more of the LENR
      generated heat for internal system functions, and reduce the
      external sources of heat energy. Even using gas, if the E-
      Cat does not need as much, that would be a significant
      improvement. Or in other words, replacing external electric
      input with external gas input is good, but needing less
      external input altogether is better. The concept of
      “coupling efficiency” may be confused with system COP. Not
      the same. Coupling efficiency has to do with how much energy
      needs to be input into just the catalyst to keep it working.
      When we already know that LENR catalysts can self sustain
      (function without external energy into them), to have a 6750
      to 1 energy ratio at the “system level” in the E-Cat is
      ludicrous. Rossi undoubtedly knows this, but may be stuck
      with embedded engineering constraints. He may need to do
      some more design work on the E-Cat for his next big
      improvement.

      • Omega Z

        Note: Cures said this particular test was a phase change test.

        • Robert Mockan

          Phase change test? I missed that. He put a phase change material into the reactor to level the heat, or store the heat? Or is he talking about catalyst metal crystal structure phase change? Or is the phase change in the hydrogen storage hydride he is using? Or metallurgical phase change in the reactor construction steel he is using due to high temperature? Bleh. Without more information all we have to go on is guessing. Educated guessing or not, this becomes tiresome very quickly.

          • Ivan Mohorovicic

            He said it was a phase of the tests, not a phase change test.

            • Stephen Taylor

              Ah, yes.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Indeed, I need a nap.

            • Robert Mockan

              Me too.

        • Stephen Taylor

          He must have meant no phase change (a simple differential temperature test) unless he is referring to something mysterious inside the reaction chamber. The communication is difficult at best. Certainly nothing in the calorimetry relates to phase change.

    • Robert Mockan

      Rossi actually answered part of this question, in his usual convoluted way, when he was talking about the difficulty of “focusing”. He meant focusing energy on regions of the catalyst that are cycling through their nuclear active state, either to re-activate them, or compensate for local inactivity that can spread to adjacent regions, thus causing instability in LENR thermal power generation. He is trying to get around the focus problem by saturating the reactor with thermal energy from an external source to bridge the inactivity gaps. It is a brute force method, can undoubtedly be improved, and when he finally fixes the focus problem we should see COP go up.
      Previously I was unsure if he was only using the electric power for thermal energy, and he might have meant something else when he said “focus”.
      But the gas input resolves that issue.

      • Stephen Taylor

        Robert, you are right that Rossi has addressed this in a fashion. When people say it is thermionic do you agree they mean it is simply needing heat in all the right places to make it go?
        So if we have an abundance of heat all over the darn place why does it need electricity? Unplug the darn thing. Oh, that’s the 50% self-sustain mode and the COP as calculated is about 8 now. Maybe?
        As you say, tiresome.

        Steve

        • Robert Mockan

          My guess is his engineering design is not ideal for the physics involved. We know research by others reveal LENR can work with heat alone, and more heat often seems to increase LENR output. When he was using electric power we all had the question was he doing more with it than just heating. But now it looks like it was just a convenient way for heating. It can be turned on and off quickly, applied to specific regions with suitable resistance heaters, and so on. If it was just a convenience, what design changes has Rossi made to use gas heating, that somehow keeps the relevant convenience of electric power heating, but using gas heating? The tube within tube is a different configuration from the original E-Cat design. I’m sure it will all be figured out soon.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Thanks. It makes sense.

    • Jeff

      Following up my own post,days later – don’t know if anyone will ever read this. But the canonical answer to my question, assuming everything is on the up-and-up, is that the electrical power isn’t optional. See the Brilloin (sp?) presentation at ICCF-17 for an idea about how and why.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003420454272 Rita

      I observed the ineervitw and found both Dr. Focardi as well as Mr. Rossi to be open and direct in answering the questions posed. Their responses seemed totally reasonable and not evasive.Could it be that the earlier negative results observed during the taped video of Mr. Rossi’s demonstration are not typical? It is entirely possible that the E-CAT being tested was not behaving as expected and Mr. Rossi would rather wing it than allow the inconsistancy to be made public. As we are all aware, the difficulty of acheiving consistant results has long been a nagging problem of LENR devices. If Mr. Rossi has achieved a success rate of 60%(?) for the E-CAT units, he is a hero. He should set aside the other 40% for now until the process is understood sufficiently.

  • s

    For the admin – is there a reason why some of my posts do not make it to the forum?

    • admin

      Hi s, some posts get flagged for the moderation file for various reasons — some make it out of moderation, some don’t. It depends on the content of the posts. I have to make judgment calls in order to keep this site from becoming something I don’t want it to be. See the ‘Posting Rules’ page for the guidelines I try to follow.

  • Jim Johnson

    A conjecture on “release date” dynamics: Some time soon the VCs will land on this space like a billion dollar ton of bricks. Being familiar with business capital investing opportunities (we hope!), Rossi’s licensees and investors know and fear that. The only way the licensees can survive being LENR-zon’d, LERN-soft’d, and LERN-oogle’d is to create large early market share.
    > The only way they can do THAT is to spend lots of money.
    > The only way they can do THAT is raise lots of money.
    > And the only way they can do THAT is if they have product credibility.
    > There are two ways to do that.
    > Apply pressure for public verification.
    > Leak information.

    Secrecy is a competitive advantage, up to a point. After that it’s a liability. Leonardo is rapidly reaching that point.

    • daniel maris

      Well – assuming Rossi’s claims are basically true – I agree. It would ahve been in Rossi’s interest to create enough interest to generate investment but not so much as to create commercial rivals. If that is the case, he has set things up brilliantly.

  • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

    I am “cures.”

    • daniel maris

      No, I am “cures”…

      • Francesco CH

        I am not Cures, but I do have high esteem for Cures.

        • http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/08/the-cures-effect-will-it-help-or-hinder-the-e-cat-cause/ captain

          “Cures” has done an excellent ‘dirty’ job in the right moment.
          Why?
          He has told the world that the BLACK HOT FURNACE is real and working properly and CAN warm up the bottom of all skeptics and snake-like people. And that’s important!

          It’s interesting to be informed that Rossi is going on with his improvements to the HOT INDUSTRIAL PLANT step by step: first we heard that the reaction has become stable, then that very high temps have been reached, then again that the drive can also be NG and not electricity only.
          These are very important improvements.
          Next main step is pointing towards the generation of electricity, so to have the plant more appetized for sales.
          Obviously, the self-sustain mode, now @ 50% of the time, should be reached better if thru a new ‘focusing system’ though the use of gas could temporarily solve or ‘mask’ the problem.

          Anyhow, the final goal is to have Rossi’s E-Ecat industrial and/or domestic plants/devices generating electricity (and hot water/steam obviously as necessary) without the need of being connected to the grid. And working on a self-sustain mode, automatically, with just the need to switch’em on and off.

  • Andrew Macleod

    I believe this will cause an uproar with the sceptics….. Mystery company wants to evaluate 1mw plant(oct test). The hired consultant turns out to be an “old buddy” of Rossi. 1mw plant never shipped. To be honest it doesn’t look good, the whole oct test is looking like a staged event. Sceptics will have a have hayday with this!! This new information is more damning then constructive.

    • daniel maris

      Isn’t it a field day rather than a hay day?

  • Robert

    Better happen because the sceptical are reeling and looking for anything to get their weakening grasp of reality affirmed the Zurich thing better be a home run and the others in the running better come with some serious new data or better yet a full demo of their machines we need to keep things rolling along!

  • GreenWin

    I found the discussion from the Big Physics Cold Fusion Panel at NI Week excellent if somewhat sparse on what each is up to. Here are a few interesting quotes:

    “The European Commission a couple months ago asked us to show them why there was an interest [in LENR.] What we showed them is very simple; data, factual data. And that’s more than enough to convince people.” Dr. Andrea Aparo, Advisor to CEO, Ansaldo Energia

    “Over the course of time we published 27 papers in peer reviewed journals, and those papers document excess heat, production of soft x-ray, production of hot spots, transmutations, obviously nuclear events of some sort, and production of particles, including alpha and neutrons. There are at least a thousand papers, in peer reviewed journals, [confirming these effects.]” Dr. Frank Gordon U.S. Navy, SPAWAR Service Center.

    “So, whatever the process was that Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons discovered, it wasn’t “cold” hot fusion, it was something else. This invention of Pons and Fleischmann is much bigger than they imagined it to be. What is demonstrated is that nuclear effects take place in crystalline bodies. In metal lattices, and possibly in any form of condensed matter. This is a huge statement. Something about nuclear physics needs to be fundamentally interrogated and re-evaluated.” Dr. Michael McKubre, Stanford Research Inst.

    • georgehants

      Two things to completely ice the cake.
      Transmutation freely between elements and Cold Fusion to turn out to be beyond known science.

      • Martin

        “Transmutation freely between elements”. Wasn’t that called alchemy?

        • Stephen Taylor

          Yes.

  • georgehants

    Andrea Rossi
    August 11th, 2012 at 3:11 PM
    Dear Adam Lepczak:
    We are organizing our world network of licensees. The Zurich convention is the first global meeting of our licencees.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Ged

      ahhh, so it did get moved up from October.

      • http://sitonmyfacebook Charles Ponzi

        It’s the one constant in Rossi’s equation. Everything always gets moved up.

      • Omega Z

        NO. I think the October show is still on with the UNIBO Demo.

        • Ged

          That makes sense, from what we see of his announcement here.