Rossi Wants to be Free from ‘Imprisonment’ of Electric Drive

Andrea Rossi has made some interesting comments lately about the possibilities of doing without the electric drive in his E-Cat systems. In all the E-Cats we have learned about to this point, an electric drive, which provides heat, is employed to both initiate and control the reactions in the E-Cat. We don’t know too much about the function of the drive, but it seems to be essential for the stability.

Rossi has acknowledged that this drive does not have to be electrical — but he has said to this point it is the most convenient source of heat. Recent comments indicate that he would like not to have to depend on electricity for the drive. Apart from anything else, electricity can be very expensive in certain parts of the world. It may be much cheaper to use natural gas, or perhaps even solar energy to provide the heat for the drive. Here are some comments from Rossi:

“It is possible to have other heat sources, but not easy because the heating must be precisely focused. We are working also on this issue”.

“There are big problems in the focusing. We are working on this, though: I hate any kind of constraint, and I want not to remain imprisoned in the necessity of electric drive for too long”.

Regarding natural gas as a heat source: “A burner implies a combustion room, a chimney… But we have to resolve this problem, we cannot be bound to electricity for ever”.

And in response to Hank Mills who proposed doing away with the drive altogether, and controlling the reactions by some other means, Rossi replied, “I understand you and you understand me. It’s matter of time”

We can see where Rossi wants to go here. He realizes that there are cost and infrastructure constraints with electricity that could actually make the E-Cat less cost effective than some traditional heat sources in some areas. The option of eliminating the drive altogether and using some other method to control the reaction is a most intriguing one, and if Rossi can crack that, the E-Cat would be even more incredible than it already is.

  • Distributed Intelligence

    As I understand it, the Rossi LENR process requires both 400 C heat and about 75 psi of H pressure to become self sustaining. This is coincident with the optimal H release temperature of a nickel (or NiFe) hydride.

    I don’t see how Rossi can get around this starting mechanism. Instead of complaining about the dependence on electricity, minimize the required amount of power to start the LENR process by using efficient forms of heat transfer, like an inductive heating coil filled with water around a cylindrical reaction vessel. The reactor then heats the water in the de-energized inductor coil and starts the rankine process of choice.

    Rossi’s public models have all used resistive heating, which is not as responsive or accurate as induction heating. Unifying the design around a water cooled coil that serves as a heat exchanger and inductor coil would be a great way to improve the Ecat.

    Precise modulation of a water-cooled induction coil would allow us to take advantage of the very cheap ARM processor based boards out there. Raspberry PI and Arduino boards could all control a inductively started LENR reactor very efficiently. There is no need for big name control systems to inflate the price and reduce the availability of LENR.

  • Brad Arnold

    My guess is that Rossi means he would like his e-cat to be free from the need for an external source of electricity. In other words, he would like it to be portable rather than tethered to an external electrical wire. Once the e-cat starts producing electricity, it can be self-powered, and that would be the goal. In other words, generating electricity directly from the LENR reaction would only need a small self-charging battery, and would be portable, which is the goal. BlackLight Power says they have a reactor that uses water vapor from the air, and directly generates electricity, so it very well could be possible.

  • Tom

    Easy there Rossi. Don’t forget electricity is good for stability. I’d prefer not to have this thing explode in my house or wake up with radio-active super powers. If he can pull it off, great, but that’s still just another if. There are more pressing if’s to unfold.

  • clovis

    Hi. Guys.
    It’s every encouraging to hear that our super hero, A.R. is continuing his r&d.
    MR. Rossie is always on the move, another good sign that things are going well, and it’s going to be fun, when the sh_t hits the fan,
    We all will have to help to keep it sorted out, and what better group to know what is coming next and what to do about it.—smile

  • http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/12/cold-fusion-a-resurrection-and-an-inconvenient-truth-a-view-from-europe/?replytocom=10913#respond praos

    What’s problem? Heat could be stored in many phase-change systems and extracted at will. I see no need fo any external source, but of course, I don’t know all details.

  • Robert

    I have Rossi syndrome. Burned out on no real proof. I want this to be real but fatigue has set in. ICCF better show some serious 3rd party confirmation and dgt could go a long way in helping too. Brian ahern, godes, somebody please please come with the goods, not speculation a real machine that u can touch and hopefully burn your hand with. I need it and so do a lot of others on this site and on this planet!

    • GreenWin

      Robert, the artifice of some commentators here discourages belief in enlightenment. Art derives from truth not artifice.

    • GreenWin

      Imagine how billions of hopeful humans feel about the past 60 years of promised deliverance by hot fusion. Whew! Rossi’s only been at it 2 years. The hot fusioneers have taken $250 Billion from the human race and delivered no useable energy. Arghhh.

  • Robert Mockan

    My last (3) articles at my blogspot OPEN SOURCE NUCLEAR FUEL have been about how the LENR nickel and hydrogen system might be controlled, and ways to generate electric power using it.

    Use any search engine and you can get there. The articles are:

    ——————————————————
    LENR Catalyst Thermal Cycling With Heat Pipes To Increase Hydrogen Gas Diffusion Mediated Thermal Power Output.
    ——————————————————
    LENR POWERED THERMOACOUSTIC GENERATORS
    ——————————————————
    The Defkalion Hyperion LENR Controller Method
    ——————————————————

  • andrea.b

    I cannot believe this website still exists and Rossi is still making announcements. Without any credible third party validation, for a year or so. This is awesome.

    BTW in Italy it cannot be sold as there has been a recent referendum polls against nuclear power, and if I am not mistaken the N in LENR is “Nuclear”
    I am looking forward to Q1/2013.
    Regards,
    Andrea

    • jacob

      please, let me not wake you up from your illusion .

    • Omega Z

      NMRI: Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imager.

      The N stands for Nuclear. Because of peoples fear of the word, The N was dropped.

      You would know it as an MRI: Magnetic Resonance Imager.

      Will change it. LENR to LER. Low Energy Reaction. Is That Better.

      • Ivan Mohorovicic

        Lattice-Enabled Reaction would sound much better, although a bit generic.

    • http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/08/rossi-wants-to-be-free-from-imprisonment-of-electric-drive/comment-page-1/#comments captain

      re to Andrea b
      I cannot believe this website still exists and Rossi is still making announcements. Without any credible third party validation, for a year or so. This is awesome.

      In Italy:
      – explosive means explosive, thus this word applies to automotive industry air-bags, used in cars for safety reasons. Well, since air-bags are activated thru very small EXPLOSIVE charges, in Italy there was some time ago a request for prohibiting the use of such explosive charges to inflate airbags…
      – In France there are 12,000 laws approx; in Germany 18,000 laws approx: and in Italy 120,000-130,000 approx… And day after day new laws are created in Italy.

  • Ron

    I assume that by electric drive, a heating element is what is meant. It sounds like a motor when using that term. Any system that will produce a great excess of heat will most likely be used to produce electricity. A small portion of this can be used to charge a battery for a steady source of easily controllable “drive”. Only a charged battery is needed to start the reactor and this could be done by a solar charger.

    I doubt any other method is reasonable unless the heating element is eliminated. If the reactor is just used for heating then natural gas might be better but I really see this used for commercial and industrial applications first. After more development I would like to see the e-cat used to replace coal in generating plants as a retrofit.

    • Omega Z

      Ron

      I’ve been doing some back reading. Early on because of the excitement/hope we tend to forget details.

      It was always intended to be used for Commercial/Industrial 1st. To build experience & safety factors. Then to break into residential use. But the ultimate goal was/is for residential use.

      This is probably why the 1st home E-cat will be for low temp heat only. Anything more advanced would probably never be approved at the git go. It appears it will be a while before the low temp system gets certified.

  • Renzo

    Excellent news

    Giuliano Bettini
    August 3rd, 2012 at 12:42 PM
    Dear Andrea Rossi
    about the presentation in Zurich on September 8 and 9: “Test results of the 600 degree E-Cat, validation by third party company”
    Correct?
    Best regards
    Giuliano Bettini

    August 3rd, 2012 at 1:54 PM
    Dear Giuliano Bettini:
    We will explain briefly the highlights of the report ( whose complete version is 140 pages long) and the data that eventually will be published in a scientific magazine.
    Warm
    Regards.
    A.R.

    Now the question is: which magazine? When? :)

    • artefact

      I hope they name the third party.

    • georgehants

      Best to print in his own Journal as expert peer review and censorship will delay official publication for another 23 years.

    • barty

      I hope it’s a serious magazine, and none of this esoteric “free energy” ones…

  • Kim

    What will Harem Keshe have to say in Sept.?

    I hope Rossie is taking notes.

    There is another song and dance. (Keshe).

    Respect
    Kim

    • barty

      Isn’t he only selling t-shirts and books about his antigravity theories?

  • Ged

    Just so everyone remembers amidst the excitement for ICCF-17: NIWeek begins this Monday, and runs through Thursday (August 6-9). There will be plenty of LENR presentations during the event. Hopefully we’ll get the information from all of them.

    Edit: Specifically, the Energy technology summit portion will be from August 7th-8th.

    Edit 2: Even more specifically we have the itinerary here https://secure.niweek.com/2012/scheduler/catalog.do

    “Status of CMNS/CF/LENR Research at Kobe-Technova” the 8th, 3:30 pm

    “Commercialization of LENR Technology” the 8th, 4pm

    • Ged

      Also the “Big Physics and Science Poster Session” is on the 8th as well at 4:45 pm. Considering what we got out of Rome, it’s possible we’ll get some LENR posters there (even more so since it’s in the same room as the two back to back LENR presentations).

      Edit: On August 7th at 4:45 pm we get “Panel Discussion: The Quest for Alternative Energy—Anomalous Heat Effect (a.k.a. Cold Fusion)”

  • georgehants

    Robert, hope you don’t mind brought your reply up as that string to full now.
    Robert Mockan

    “Rossi worries me not because he is making mistakes (that comes with the territory of any new product development), but because the tremendous progress he is making indicates the worse fears many scientists have had over the years about suppression of cold fusion technology have been vindicated. Piantelli had the essential details of the nickel and hydrogen heat source, confirmed with experiments, over 22 years ago! And he could not get funding! Even his peers were gotten to and he lost their verbal support! But Rossi had his own funding sources, and he is gutsy enough to follow his own path! Although he has been under heavy fire before trying to implement new technology, Rossi says he has a deadmans’ switch on his catalyst secret, so if anything happens to him the secrets get publicized. And that means he also understands the tightrope he is walking!
    I’m not attacking him when I say he needs to release that information NOW! The problem is he can still be stopped! This whole field could still be stopped, even if done after the science is proven, using regulatory death.
    But it can not be stopped again if every person knew how to make the catalyst!”

    • georgehants

      Robert, the reply you read should have gone to Jed and he was kind enough to answer. I did change it on the string, but to answer you.

      I agree with every word you say.
      It is a Wonderful and yet still worrying time.
      Could Rossi be stopped, he must have had many offers, that is why we must protect him at all costs, so far he does not seem to have even thought of selling out, but just continue with what he has said from the beginning – produce a working E-Cat and the market will bypass all opposition – commercial and academic.
      Until that Working E-Cat is on public show nobody can be sure of the situation but, assuming he is legit, the best course seems to be, Trust Rossi, he certainly seems to have most things under control.

      • georgehants

        Ged, not Jed, I am having a bad day.

        • Ged

          No worries, it happens to us all. I hope your day gets better.

    • Kim

      “This whole field could still be stopped, even if done after the science is proven, using regulatory death”

      I believe this process is well under way.

      Still waiting for UL Certifications.

      Take a Clue everyone.

      Respect
      Kim

  • Kim

    Underwriters Laboratories.

    How long is this game going to go on?

    Control?

    Respect
    Kim

    • GreenWin

      There is an element of human nature not being figured by those fearing intervention by PTB. That is the pragmatic capitalist who will very shortly see the inevitability of this discovery re-making the entire socio-economic arena. That said, these ambitious people will use all their powers of influence to see to it the process is known and grows. Why? They will make money. And in spite of what some may hope for, this revolution will not do away with financial discourse on earth.

      And for the more spiritual amongst us, it seems fairly clear to me Mr.Rossi has not gotten this far this fast without the help of divine intervention. Just sayin.

  • georgehants

    New structural information on functionalization of gold nanoparticles
    August 03, 2012
    Nanometre-scale gold particles are currently intensively investigated for possible applications as catalysts, sensors, biolabels, drug delivery devices, biological contrast agents and as components in photonics and molecular electronics. The particles are prepared in a solution from gold salts and their reactive gold cores can be stabilized with various organic ligands. Particularly stable particles can be synthesized by using organothiol ligands that have a strong chemical interaction to gold, producing precise compositions in the size range of 1 to 3 nanometres. Modification of the protecting molecular overlayer is a key step in almost all applications. A detailed structural atomistic understanding of the processes of the exchange reaction has been lacking.
    http://www.brightsurf.com/news/headlines/78090/New_structural_information_on_functionalization_of_gold_nanoparticles_.html

  • http://www.choicedowsing.com kwhilborn

    JUST GET THE INVENTION MARKETED. Don’t perfect it.

    Look at all technologies when they first came out.
    Autos
    Computers
    The Wheel
    Telephone
    Television
    etc…

    Most inventions are improved greatly over time. This invention has more importance centered upon BEING ACCEPTED WORLDWIDE. Once LENR is accepted as the “go to” green energy of our future then the entire planet can focus on improving it. I am sure LENR will look a lot different 100 years down the road.

    If 1000 degrees can be maintained on a LENR wall then water can be boiled into strong enough steam to power a turbine which can power a battery which can power the LENR coils… poof free of outside electricity except the original battery charge. I think Andrea Rossi wants to avoid all skeptics who will say there is too much input power.

    There is too much at stake, as many lives depend upon the discovery of a an oil free green fuel. Somebody needs to remind Andrea Rossi that not only is he in a race with a dozen other entities, but he is also putting forth a tech that will save lives.

    • Ged

      This is a different product from the low temp, that has been scheduled for Q1 2013 since last year. It’s good to see R&D still on going while we wait for certifications, factory preparations, and the like.

      • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

        With this story late last year the projection was in the
        autumn 2012 for public availablity.

        It looks possible that other competitive small portable
        new technology energy devices may be available this fall
        if the timelines are acheived.

        • Ged

          Well, according to Proia’s interviews, he does plan to be selling E-cats this Autumn. It could be it’s a market issue, where some areas of the world are easier to get the E-cats to then others, similar to how the same video games/movies are released at different times in different world regions. Maybe Italy will get E-cats long before the USA?

          I just don’t know, or if it’ll start out as just a trickling of orders, and then mass production (which is slated to start in Autumn) finally reaching volume distribution levels in the first part of 2013.

          All just my best guess at the time line as it stands.

      • daniel maris

        I think Rossi (in Feb of this year) pushed that back to July 2013.

        But of course we should see many more signs of authenticity before then. We are seeing a few e.g. the licensees beginning to appear.

        • admin

          Recently Rossi has been saying he has no way of prediciting when the domestic E-Cats will be on the market because “that does not depend on us” — i.e. it is up to the Certification agencies to make the approval

    • http://www.thinktankreport.com Phillip

      Fully agree. Thousands of bugs and “blue screens” certainly didn’t stop Bill Gates from marketing Windows 20 years ago. If Rossi simply markets his current best model as a “Heat Multiplier” he’ll silence 90% of the skeptics in one go.

  • dragonX

    New British startup company is working with Francesco Celani on commercialising new LENR reactor with NEW catalyst.

    http://energycatalyzer3.com/news/british-lenr-company-working-with-celani

    Kressen website:
    http://www.kresenn.com/?goback=.gde_4132340_member_138114047#!lenr

  • hammerskoj

    New paper on reduced cross section in metals (abstract):

    “Electron screening effects in nuclear reactions: still an unsolved problem”

    http://iopscience.iop.org/1742-6596/337/1/012062?fromSearchPage=true

    … Electron screening for nuclear reactions in metals plays an unexpected and important role in enhancing reaction cross sections in the ultra-low energy region. … the enhanced screening effect in metallic environments is well established …

    • Ged

      This one is incredibly fascinating paper.

      Here are some interesting excerpts:

      “Electron screening eff ects in charged particle induced nuclear reactions have been investigated for many years. Usually, the observed e ffect is very small, below 1%, due to the huge difference on the interaction energies; i.e., eV in an atomic system, versus MeV in a nuclear system. However, a surprisingly large eff ect has been measured when studying the D(d,p)T reaction in metallic environments at ultra-low energies, which stirred up attention more strongly on the influence of the environment where nuclear reactions take place.”

      “Yuki et al [1] measured the reaction rates at energies down to 2.5 keV, obtaining the first clear evidence that the fusion reaction rate can be enhanced in the metal environment during keV deuteron bombardment.”

      It goes on to say 54 elements have been tested, with only metals having a large screening energy on the order of >150 keV. Semiconductors/insulators are all 25 keV.

      “Huke et al [7] claim that, as for the oxide, low deuteron density in the host metal also creates an unstable deuteron density pro file that simulates a large screening, and, therefore, the correct screening is obtained only when the metal host is saturated with deuterium in a proportion close to 1:1.”

      Also stated is carbon can absorb D2, but doesn’t show an enhanced screening energy, making it a contaminant. Once again, too, we see how a high molar loading is important.

      Finally:

      “Low energy D+D and 6;7Li + p reactions are greatly enhanced when the reactions occurs in a metal environment. The mechanism of the enhancement is not fully understood, even though it is well established that it is due to the quasi-free valence electrons of the metal. These arguments motivate further studies. Screening due to plasmons is one of the studies which is being carried out.”

  • georgehants

    Dear Andrea,
    I wonder if there is a possibility of using a similar reaction found in pocket handwarmers (google ‘peacock handwarmers’) which use lighter fluid(butane) and a platinum catalyst to create heat without a flame. Could a variation of this reaction be used to generate the ‘drive’ for the e-cat removing the need for heat.
    I guess it depends on the amount of heat required and whether you can control the heat of the platinum catalytic reaction, perhaps by just moving the proximity of the heat source to the reactor?

    Andrea Rossi
    August 3rd, 2012 at 6:59 AM
    Dear Mark Saker:
    No, too low energy can be focused this way.
    But I thank you very much for your will to help!
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.
    Mark Saker
    August 3rd, 2012 at 6:14 AM

    • Robert Mockan

      If we take at face value that Rossi needs to be able focus thermal power (for whatever reason, to wherever it needs to go) and uses electricity and resistance heating for that purpose, to keep the E-Cat going, then the solution to replacing the electricity is simply to focus thermal power in some other way. NASA solved this problem many years ago with heat pipes. These are thermally activated, passive devices (no electric power used), that can transfer heat and focus it to levels up to 100 kilowatts per square centimeter, at temperatures to over 2000 C. It is kind of ironic that one of the best known companies that make heat pipes is where Randall Mills, before he formed his own company, Black Light Power, did many of his experiments early on using nickel and hydrogen. That would be Thermacore Corporation. If Rossi did go this route it would probably mean redesigning his E-Cat, but unquestionably the thermal power focus at whatever temperature he needed could be done using heat pipes drawing heat directly from the low energy nuclear reactor core.
      Here is some info about heat pipes.
      http://www.thermacore.com/applications/high-temperature-heat-pipes.aspx

  • Dongian

    If I understand the initial electric power only serves to heat the mixture … This is pure alchemy! The processes of transmutation occur in the athanor. The catalyst material is perhaps the alchemical secret mineral that produces the “mercury” or “quicksilver,” condensing the ether?. it’s a mineral that the alchemists called symbolically “our oak” …?

  • http://www.bing.com/?cc=de Klako

    Hi,

    Rossi war zu euphorisch mit seiner E Katze.

    Termin und Preis kann er nicht einhalten. In Australien wird mit der E Cat schon Werbung betrieben, dabei werden Preise von 2000- 2200A$ genannt.

    Jenseits der 2011 angekündigten Preise von 600 $ !!

    Allmählich schwindet meine Hoffnung bei Rossi, zumal er immer noch offene Baustellen hat.

    Warum die Zertifizierung über ein Jahr dauern soll, weiß auch keiner.

    Klako

  • hammerskoj

    A new paper (abstract):

    “Anomalously High Isotope Ratio 3He/4He and Tritium in Deuterium-Loaded Metal: Evidence for Nuclear Reaction in Metal Hydrides at Low Temperature”

    http://iopscience.iop.org/0256-307X/29/1/012503?fromSearchPage=true

    … To explain the excess 3He and tritium in the deuterium-loaded titanium samples, it is required that the deuteron-induced nuclear reaction occurs in the samples at low temperature.

    • Ged

      Awesome new paper, thank you for sharing. There have actually been several on this subject, apparently! Dr. Kim references them, and it’s part of the backing behind his theories for the phenomenon.

      Very important evidence for any discussions on theory.

  • Robert Mockan

    If Rossi wants to spend time and effort trying to replace electricity with some kind of thermochemical process for heat storage and release fine, but if he still needs electricity for any other reason would it not be smarter to spend his time and effort just raising the COP? A high temperature, that he alleges having, combined with a higher COP he says he has operated at (but for still unknown reasons he says is not safe), would allow making useful amounts of electricity. So if he is going to research and develop anyway, why not fix the COP safety issue and operate at 20 or 30 (or higher)? The regions of the world he talks about needing his E-Cat may not have the required electricity. One should conclude then they also need electricity, that the E-Cat can make if properly designed. Come on Rossi, you know this. What is the problem with the COP? If you are going to be making more effort anyway, why not use it to fix the COP?

    • Ged

      Well, interestingly, lowering the electrical input also effectively increases the COP, as long as the heat replacing the electricity doesn’t have to be at the same power, or if it can be supplied by the e-cat itself. I guess it’s kind of a one hand or the other.

      I think it’s a matter of what is being heated; i.e. the metal lattice specifically. I guess one could use lasers; even a 1 watt laser can burn through wood. Only problem is, can we make a semiconductor or other type of laser that can survive the supposed max heat of an E-cat. Ah.. such an interesting issue to overcome, this pin point heating problem!

      • Robert Mockan

        Something is not right about this story. The active catalyst in the high temperature E-Cat is about 1.5 grams. Given nickel density this is a volume about that of a pencil eraser on the end of a pencil (that image so people have something to relate to).

        So what exactly is the electricity doing? Heating a little bit of metal? Or is Rossi heating the entire E-Cat, operating the heat exchanger at the same time he is using electricity to heat it, whatever?

        The implied engineering of the E-Cat arrived at assuming the story is true about heating (the catalyst) with “lots” of electricity to control and activate it, is ludicrous, given the volume we are talking about.

        If Rossi would release more details there are probably, oh, not more than several hundred thousand, engineers, any one of who could probably solve the E-Cat design problems in a few days. Meanwhile people continue to be deprived of the technology.

        • Ged

          I wonder if this has to do with the electron screening energy effects as talked about in the paper hammerskoj posted above.

          On the other hand, we don’t know what the electrical input for the 1.5 gram high temp E-cats is, only for the low temperature ones. At least, so far as I’ve heard?

          None the less, even such a small target can’t be heated that directly; and heat diffusion means you need to throw a lot of power at it electrically to really drive the temp up to the ranges needed for activation; though I don’t know the exact numbers for the amount of peripheral mass and heat conduction we are talking about. At least so far as we’ve seen.

          Edit: You know, thinking about the whole “have to saturate the metal with the gas to allow the reaction” requirement of LENR. I wonder if the heating is simply helping with gas loading, and is actually not needed at the levels of power input he’s using, but just needed over a length of time necessary for full diffusion (which would be faster at higher temps).

          • Robert Mockan

            You realize if Rossi is just heating the catalyst, he could disperse a high resistance conductor in it, make a resistor composition, and simply heat it by conducting current through it. The volume of a small 10 watt resistor is already much greater than any volume required to incorporate 1.5 grams of nickel in it. Pass kilowatts through a 10 watt resistor and it will be white hot in moments, just before it vaporizes. So back again to the question, exactly WHAT is Rossi doing with kilowatts of electricity?

            Your comment about electron screening may apply. But if that is the case using multilayer compositions with different fermi levels could do the same as current. In fact I think it was Mckubre who did exactly that when working on the Patterson beads.

            • Ged

              Problem with that idea, which I was thinking over, is you have contamination by the resistor in the reaction chamber. That could cause an unwanted side effect, or block the reaction completely.

              I wish I knew exactly, I really do. The only thing I can think of as a comparison for scale is a computer. A 1 kW PSU generates some heat, but not at all that high of a rate (comparatively, as it isn’t meant to, after all). Maybe whatever is being used to convert the electricity is really inefficient… I guess we’ll figure it out, one way or another, once we can get our hands on a device.

            • Robert Mockan

              Ged,

              you are dam* right we are going to figure it out! Rossi may be doing great things, but he should have gone fully transparent on E_Cat design issues and about the catalyst long ago. Help would be immediately available if he would simply ask for it, and stop the nonsensical business plan he is trying to run. He gets his fame, writes a book, makes millions on the lecture circuit, and the technology gets used before we all die of old age! The catalyst is the key, everything else is just engineering. But trying to keep his “secrets” may still kill the golden goose if it gives the powers who do not want this technology developed time to get into position to squash cold fusion again!

            • georgehants

              Robert Mockan, in the last 18 months Rossi reportedly has moved from a crude E-Cat to one the size of a laptop, from low temperatures to high temperatures Etc. Etc.
              He constantly thanks people for the help they have given him.
              Lets not turn this page into another, everything is Rossi’s fault.
              If he has done as reported in 18 months, while most of science in 23 years has incompetently achieved nothing, but spend time attacking Rossi et al, let’s not join them.

            • Robert Mockan

              georgehants,

              Rossi worries me not because he is making mistakes (that comes with the territory of any new product development), but because the tremendous progress he is making indicates the worse fears many scientists have had over the years about suppression of cold fusion technology have been vindicated. Piantelli had the essential details of the nickel and hydrogen heat source, confirmed with experiments, over 22 years ago! And he could not get funding! Even his peers were gotten to and he lost their verbal support! But Rossi had his own funding sources, and he is gutsy enough to follow his own path! Although he has been under heavy fire before trying to implement new technology, Rossi says he has a deadmans’ switch on his catalyst secret, so if anything happens to him the secrets get publicized. And that means he also understands the tightrope he is walking!
              I’m not attacking him when I say he needs to release that information NOW! The problem is he can still be stopped! This whole field could still be stopped, even if done after the science is proven, using regulatory death.
              But it can not be stopped again if every person knew how to make the catalyst!

          • Robert Mockan

            Good guess, but although diffusion increases with temperature, gas loading decreases. Much of the original Piantelli work in the early 1990s involved this issue. He found a maxima in gas loading, at sub-atmospheric pressures, in the presence of a magnetic field, at about the Curie temperature of nickel (roughly 360 C). Also, the time for full hydrogen saturation of nickel at elevated temperatures,in powder form, especially if a nano-powder, is seconds.

            The problem with Rossi using kilowatts of electricity, is that NOTHING about it makes any sense when considering the small volume of active catalyst he says he is using.

            • Ged

              Oh sweet, this is good info to know about the saturation rate of nickel. Thanks for the knowledge! Sadly, this means that explanation is not going to cut it for trying to understand what all this input power is doing. Strong enough localized magnetic field from the current maybe?

            • Barry

              Robert, it is not like all the catalyst eggs are in one basket. CF cannot be stopped. For one, you would have to silence all the contributors to E-cat World. The internet is a revolution tool that has never been available to the degree that it is now and cannot be silenced. Besides there is a lot of talk about carbon (graphite?) being a catalyst. When we get to unscrew an Ecat, my guess is carbon will pop out.

      • Robert Mockan

        COP (or more accurately the term “thermal efficiency”) is calculated using the thermal power equivalent. Using internal generated heat to maintain the E-Cat rather than electricity, all other things being equal, does not change COP, because the calculation is already made using the thermal power equivalent of the electrical input. The advantage of using heat before conversion is that the conversion equipment (everything needed to make electricity) with the inherent loss as defined by the net conversion efficiency, can be removed from the equation. In other words, given COP=6, and electric power input, just to break even using a net conversion of output thermal power to electric power to operate the E-Cat requires 16.8% net conversion efficiency (on average), of heat into electricity, with the balance of 83.2% of the output thermal power being wasted. Raising COP would reduce the amount of thermal power being wasted. That in turn would reduce the mass (and cost) of the equipment needed to convert heat to electricity. Any cost analysis of the E-Cat power conversion would benefit by raising COP. More so than any other variable that Rossi might alter when doing design improvements. That gets me back to saying if he wants to make the effort, it makes more sense to fix the safety issue and run at higher COP, because that would also make available more useful electricity at lower cost.
        The E-Cat makes heat, and that is good. But an E-Cat that makes electricity is better, and Rossi knows this.

        • Ged

          So very true.

          • georgehants

            Sorry wrote a comment above marked to Robert, should have been to Ged re.
            Apologies Robert.

            Ged,
            “you are dam* right we are going to figure it out! Rossi may be doing great things, but he should have gone fully transparent on E_Cat design issues and about the catalyst long ago. Help would be immediately available if he would simply ask for it, and stop the nonsensical business plan he is trying to run. He gets his fame, writes a book, makes millions on the lecture circuit, and the technology gets used before we all die of old age! The catalyst is the key, everything else is just engineering. But trying to keep his “secrets” may still kill the golden goose if it gives the powers who do not want this technology developed time to get into position to squash cold fusion again!”

            • Ged

              Oh, I hope our discussion is not coming across as trying to attack Rossi in any way, and that’s true that a great many hands have been helping out to push the technology along. Just trying to understand the process to a greater depth, while Rossi is the public name before us to refer things back to.

          • georgehants

            Ged, hey thanks, still a bit edgy about anybody saying Rossi has it wrong.
            Soon (hopefully) we should have the whole story and then with easy hindsight we can judge, but at the moment we don’t know all the problems he has.
            If he is true, he is miles ahead of everyone except possibly Defkalion (where did they get their E-Cat from) and to ask more from him, except to show a working E-cat, seems a little hard.
            Peace.

            • Ged

              The thing is, he’s made great strides rapidly, but the amount of years that have gone into the technology by Rossi personally are pretty short on the new-technology-optimization scale of things. How long did it take planes and cars to get optimized? Certainly longer than a decade. There’s only so many things one can think to test while trying to get things out to market, and some methods may at first seem brute force-ish.

              He brilliantly found a solution that works (provided all gets vindicated), but it doesn’t mean it’s yet the best solution. I guess we are just looking forward, just like Rossi is also doing :)

              You’re absolutely right though, no body else is even close. So not trying to second guess, just find the common thread that’ll allow us to unlock even more potential from LENR.

    • http://www.choicedowsing.com kwhilborn

      The ECat only requires heat ti initiate/start the reaction. This could be achieved with a battery and sustained with electrical production via a steam powered generator.

      There is plenty of information on how the ecat works so many replies here seem unusually uninformed.

      @ Robert,
      1000 Degrees Celsius may be safe for a trained adult, but would you send your child into the ecat area to replace the fuel cartridges. Also with that kind of heat and pressurized steam there are dangers of explosive decrompression high enough to destroy a house.

      There will be plenty of safeguards in place however so there should be no need to worry as steam technology is very advanced and currently provides 80% of the worlds energy.

      I’d rather see the technology come about in even a raw form as long as it becomes accepted. Once accepted we can have the entire planet perfecting it.

      • Robert Mockan

        What Rossi says about how the E-Cat works, and the concerns Rossi is expressing about how the E-Cat works, especially about the use of electricity, does not make sense. Your suggestion about how the heat is used ignores what was discussed very early in his publications. He says he cycles the E-Cat through intervals of using electricity, every couple hours. If it was merely a start-up issue that would simplify matters. If it was merely a heat issue sure he could use a battery to start it, then use internally generated heat to keep it going. And if it was a thermal cycling issue he could start it, then operate between 2 reactor cores to heat one while the other is cycling, then reverse the process, thus do the cycling without electricity. These are the simple solutions, but clearly Rossi has a problem these solutions do not fix. If these were solutions, or if what you suggest was a solution, then Rossi would have done it! Same with fixing the alleged COP safety issue. There is more going on here than he is letting on. In fact it is exactly these kind of questions that still have many doubting he has any workable product at all!

        The steam explosion issue is a non issue, since tank boiler certification would not be obtainable. It would need to be a mono-tube boiler, and a burst pipe would be a steam puff inside the enclosure. The high temperature issue is not different than an open flame issue in the house. An appliance is either designed for it and approved, or is not used. Children live in houses with fireplaces, gas stoves, water heaters, no problem.

        • Omega Z

          @Robert

          The appliances Etc you speak of were around long before we had regulations. Basically you have a grandfathered system & even they have went through major safety revisions over time.

          You & I among other posters here may have no problem, but the vast majority of the population have been raised in a convenience society having no exposure to certain risks in life & the common sense that builds from that.

          We’ve all seen labels saying don’t do this or that & we think really? You have to tell people this ROFL? Yes! Sadly Someone did it. That’s why they place unbelievable warning labels on things.

        • Omega Z

          @ Robert

          I think for heating the E-cat, Electric is probably the best option for fine tune control. Using anything else will go from something the size of your fist to something in the multiple cubic foot scale. It may work, but also add additional costs & fuel. No longer a cheap option.

          Even with a different heat source, you’ll still need electric service for the control box & frequency Generator to control the E-cat.

          I went back & reread some things about one of the demo & it was stated that in the non-power mode, the E-cat was using 432 mili-amps of power. Don’t recall if it was 110 or 220 volt. Anyway the control box used 300ma & the frequency generator was using 132ma.

          My bet would be on a TEG device that can obtain 20 to 25% conversion efficiency there by supplying the E-cats own power. What would then be the waste heat could be used for absorption cooling or home heating & hot water needs.

          This would eliminate 70% to 80% of your annual utility costs requiring only the cost of cartridge refills about every 6 months. This would be a great first step. Future development will eventually take care of the rest.

          The E-cat is just one of many components of what will have to be an integrated system.

          E-cats that convert heat to Electric directly or TEG device. I suspect within 5 years TEG devices of 40% to 60% efficiency will be developed. Absorption refrigeration systems. This is old tech that needs revised/rejuvenated. A waste heat collector for hot water & home heating or flushing/heat-sink when not needed. Also an Ion-Air?? battery of 5Kwh to 10Kwh size for peek demand periods & restarting the E-cat if & when necessary…

          Siemens has a CHP system that wouldn’t take much conversion to accomplish all this in the near future when additional technology is available. And I believe it could all fit into a 4`X4` Utility Room under lock & key. This would take you totally off grid.

          Rossi has hinted at higher COP then 6 for commercial/industrial use. I think I know the problem with higher COP. Higher Gamma which requires much more lead shielding & becomes a major safety consideration for the general consumer. So higher COP may be in the future once it has developed a track safety/record??? Years…

          I could be wrong. I’m just guessing with bits & pieces from some of Rossi’s statements over time.

      • Ged

        Understanding it all for the initial start up makes enough sense, but it’s the booster shots of drive that we are trying to understand (or at least I am). This all hinges on that whole 50% of the time the device need electrical input for heating, and 50% of the time it’s running self sustained. If that figure is off, then the picture changes, but if it is accurate, it’s part of the mystery of the process.

  • barty
    • artefact

      I thought the same when I read that on google/news.
      The comment by the reporter was: “They seem not to know what to do with their leftover money.”
      Well, time will tell

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      SI up 7.33% at this moment.

      • GreenWin

        Interesting news. The Italian government has stepped in to block the sale of Ansaldo to Siemens AG or any controlling foreign entity. Looks like Italy realizes the high value of Ansaldo suddenly and for some reason (other than claims about union issues.)

        • Omega Z

          GreenWin

          These companies are always buying & selling. So it’s hard for us who don’t keep up in general to know if what we see is the norm.

          We can look at what they buy or sell & go ahaa! But it’s just a matter of perception & guessing. However I very recently read an article where these things are better tracked. There view was that Siemens has went into overdrive this year.

          Also, “This kind of falls into Rossi say’s” But basically Siemens has indicated they have a Steam Turbine that would match up quite well with the 1Mw E-cat with the new high temp cores.

          • GreenWin

            Agreed Omega. It is curious that Ansaldo, a very small entity on the global stage, is subject to government scrutiny at this moment. Finmeccanica is Italy’s largest defense contractor. IF, for some odd reason Ansaldo had contractual access to the world’s most revolutionary energy source – selling it to Germany might appear… politically incorrect:)

  • Lu

    I’m glad to see Rossi working on this as the requirement for electricity is a bit of an Achilles heal for the E-Cat. Depending on where you live this requirement may make the E-Cat not cost effective if the price of electricity is high.

    I’m a bit confused about the actual requirement though. Is is primarily to provide the drive? Is there a separate start up requirement (takes 1 hour). We just don’t know. Perhaps we will find out more with the September report.

    Rossi has stated that the drive occurs 50% of the time and the rest appears to be self-sustained mode. If this is true then the peak power input seems to me to be 3.3kW since the COP is 6 overall. For a 120V system in the US this requires a dedicated electrical circuit of 30A.

    The specs for the 1M E-Cat however have the peak power at 200kW and not 333kW. This does not make sense to me if the system is running at an overall COP of 6 and requires the drive half the time.

    Also it is conjectured by Hank that the drive is necessary to dampen the reaction. What if there is a power failure? Will that require the E-Cat to shut down or risk a runaway reaction?

    • Ged

      Yeah, I agree with that idiosyncratic conjecture about input needed to dampen the reaction. I think it’s just necessary to keep the metal lattice optimally heated and vibrating. Or, it could be to do with the mysterious “catalyst” (the electrical pinpoint heating could be that catalyst, however).

      I think the need for the drive is more of a “turn it on when the reaction starts to fall off” issue. All the data curves we’ve seen for LENR, from whatever source from Defkalion to MIT and other published papers, show the reaction slowly ramping down over time after initial input; and eventually shutting off if there isn’t a booster shot of drive.

      The self heating of the reaction itself is apparently not enough to keep it going, but I think that’s because we’re siphoning off the heat for our power use, and it isn’t regenerating fast enough to keep the system self running over a long period of time. The high temp E-cats might be able to get past this. It all depends on, if my hypothesis is correct, what temperature the metal must be heated at. Obviously less than melting point, but… hm.

      It is still mysterious. Wouldn’t it be a twist if it isn’t actually the heat from the electricity that’s important, but instead the resulting magnetic field generated by the current!

      • Lu

        Ged,

        Rossi seems to indicate that electricity is not required. He wants to get rid of this dependency.

        Good point about needing electrical input to sustain the reaction (and not to dampen it). That’s not Mills conjecture. Maybe you need to do both?

        What do you think of my questions about peak input power?

        • Ged

          My completely, unfounded, random wondering is if Rossi thinks it’s the heat when really it’s the current generated, localized magnetic field. That would definitely throw off all his attempts to get the reaction going with just heating.

          But most likely it is indeed that it’s just a matter of heat, and focusing that heat, and keeping it regionally high enough to sustain the reaction without it diffusing away too fast. A tricky paradox when you are trying to extract the resulting heat of reaction for power.

          I think you calculated the peak power perfectly. A 30 amp circuit would increase the installation costs if a house doesn’t have any spare ones on hand. But, then it is mysterious that the 1 MW plant uses less input than the peak would be for a COP 6 reaction with 50% drive time. That either means it needs the input more often (many reactor cores to maintain), or it actually has a higher COP, but Rossi just won’t guarantee anything beyond 6 for product warranty issues.

          That seems to be what makes the most sense of the question in my mind.

          • Lu

            Peak power as advertised for the 1M E-Cat implies a COP of 10 assuming what I say holds (or I’m mistaken somewhere). I would think that to be able to say a COP of 10 is very desirable.

            I would Rossi knows what he is talking about with regard to electricity. On the other hands, things don’t compute.

            • Ged

              I feel like maybe the issue has been bludgeoned with a sledgehammer instead of handled with finesse. Thinking on all the data curves I’ve seen in the literature… I think either people are using a high input spike, or a lower input for longer. Which way is optimal? I don’t know.

              The fact we can reach self sufficiency, for even awhile, says something important about it all. It could all just be gas feeding rate really. As soon as saturation drops too low, the reaction will also cease. Higher temps, and electrical fields, can help drive gas loading into metal; and maybe also ionization of the gas is playing a role.

            • Omega Z

              @ Ged

              I’ve reread some of the reports from early demos & If I read it right on the responses they got from certain actions that some parts of it work like reverse Logic to the laymen. Kind of like Less is more & More is less effect.

              Maybe this is why it’s taken so long for anyone to crack the process & get it to work in a reasonable fashion.

  • dragonX

    Let’s wait until Prometeon finishes the count down on their website. I am curious to see what info they will have to convince industrial players to buy ECat Plants.
    Also, let’s see if in September we will find out somehow either by Rossi or by leak the name of the third party entity that tested the 600C ECat.

    So let’s wait until October to finish this story one way or another.

  • dragonX

    For 6.95 you get lots of movies from Netflix.

    Wikipedia, Youtube are free.

    • dragonX

      That is a comment from the LENR Connect post. Don’t know how it got here. :-)

      • Pachu

        Its not about the amount, its about we have a community, and in a community sense we like open source things, not fee-hidden things.

  • Stephen Taylor

    Here is the full schedule of the roll out presentation in Zurich on September 8 and 9. (from 22passi). It specifically shows the 600C third party validation test results being presented at 8pm on Saturday. (Andrea Rossi and Magnus Holm speaking in this segment.)

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2oZKvHHUzd9cU1WdFVGcFF1ZVU/edit?pli=1

    Prices are shown for various attendance packages and hotel accommodations. Flights from the east coast USA are between $880 and $1300 based on a quick survey.

    Zurich in September, hmmmm, dream on Steve, dream on.

    • Pachu

      “Energy conversion via Weak Interaction processes”

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      > It specifically shows the 600C third party validation test results being presented at 8pm on Saturday.

      This is relevant information!

      • Ged

        This information is relevant to my interests!

        Seriously, awesome to hear this! I was afraid we’d just get marketing, but this is the huge announcement we’ve been waiting for (as long as the third party isn’t the Hydrofusion licensee, since they aren’t really “third party” in that case).

        I certainly can fully forgive Rossi for moving back the release of the report from July to this event; have everything all at once.

        • Ivan Mohorovicic

          I just learned that there are several versions of that Zurich event flyer. Have a look at this URL:

          http://www.borderlands.de/Links/Kongress080912h-e.pdf

          The first version is named ‘E’, the last one containing new information about third party validation is named ‘G’.

          • Ged

            Hmm, interesting they are updating the event info as it gets closer. Makes sense. Seems like they are trying to pack more in.

  • Pachu

    Does anyone know the status of this project (and remembering the Kickstarter support on cold fusion…).

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1828010541/we-need-your-help-to-explain-cold-fusion

  • http://www.e-cat.asia Tony McDougall

    I’m sure someone will find a quote from the JONP blog to confirm or contradict the following statement… But wasn’t the electric power also required for the RF (or was it ultrasonic?) generator?

    • admin

      You’re right, Tony — I don’t think there is a way around that — but I think the amount of energy needed to run it is insignificant compared to that use by the drive.

      • Warthog

        Actually there is. Use your non-electric heat source to start up the (fusion) reaction, and at the same time, use the waste heat from said source via a thermopile to crank off the RF….not very efficient…..but do-able. Once the E-Cat gets up to speed, switch the RF over to E-cat generated electricity. But I fail to see why simply using a storage battery would be contra-indicated. Every modern IC engine works that way. Far easier.

      • Omega Z

        I reread a demo report that stated in the non drive mode that the control box was pulling 432ma. Don’t recall if it was 110 to 220 volt.

        Anyway 300ma was used for controls & 132ma for the Radio frequency generator.

        In the past, it’s been pointed out that no one saw a microwave or frequency generator. Wha la. WI-FI is a radio frequency generator. My adapter has a 2 inch card that plugs into the USB. They can be smaller. Thumb drive with external antennae.

        Think of home made. People attach a wired fitting into a coffee can. It’s directional. The pin antennae may only protrude an inch into the can.

        Now think of a core the size of a D-cell battery with a heating element on each side to heat the core. Now with an antennae tip the size of a thumb tack protruding into the core to deliver the frequency which activates the Ni/H. E-cat.

        The generator most likely in the control box feeds the signal by wire to the antennae tip in the core. Those who have seen inside the control box spoke of what appeared to be simple electronic components & capacitors. Mostly empty. The actual RF generator would be quite small & unnoticed.

  • morse

    Let’s see a working e-cat first ! The details can be changed in a later generation of e-cats. Hasn’t he other things on his mind than worrying about an electrical drive ?

    • barty

      Full acknowledge!

      Rossi should bring his first generation e-cat into the market.
      This should be his highest priority!

      He allways solves new minor problems/optimizations and never comes to an end…the story becomes boring a little bit.
      Can’t wait for ICCF-17.

      • Max S

        well, in the logic of Gary Wright, this may be exactly Rossi´s strategy. There is no e-cat, in order to continue running a story he has to create new hypothetical features, rather than launching a real device.

      • http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/08/rossi-wants-to-be-free-from-imprisonment-of-electric-drive/ captain

        Rossi should bring his first generation e-cat into the market.
        This should be his highest priority!

        Ah… really? And why he’s not doing so immediately?

        • http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/08/rossi-wants-to-be-free-from-imprisonment-of-electric-drive/ captain

          IMHO it should be possible that, if UL certificators for any reason would delay unreasonably their validation certificate, the domestic E-Cat will be almost surely produced and put on the market in EU.
          In Sweden they need very soon such an appliance, ’cause winter over there is a serious thing.
          Swedish scientists are appreciating very much Rossi’s job and should be happy to start the domestic E-Cat production in their homeland’s new plant.

          • Omega Z

            Without UL certification, it is Illegal to sell a product of this nature. Also Illegal to install it.

            But if all else fails, he can take it to China & fast track it there. I’m sure they would be happy to have it as they are probably the largest fossil fuel importer in the world. If not, they soon will be. Would save them hundreds of Billions in no time.

            At that point the rest of the World would have to follow suit or face economic collapse.

            • http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/08/rossi-wants-to-be-free-from-imprisonment-of-electric-drive/comment-page-1/#comments captain

              Omega Z on August 4, 2012 at 4:18 am
              Without UL certification, it is Illegal to sell a product of this nature. Also Illegal to install it.

              I was meaning ‘in the states’ of course, where UL certification is needed obviously!
              But the world is not US only: and knowing what happens in the states actually, for patents/brevets relating to LENR matter, Rossi couldn’t wait for a long time, too much. And in the meantime his competitors could have a great success abroad, in the rest of the world.
              That means that US would not be the first nation to have domestic E-Cats, simply.

              Rossi has said that the E-Cats will be made also in Italy and Sweden, and there UL validation in not necessary.

      • Ged

        Still on target for that first gen deploy Q1 of 2013. I guess we have to wait for September!