Better Translation of ‘Vector’s’ Letter

In order to avoid confusion with another update, I thought I would make a new post to say that ‘Vector’s’ letter about his inside knowledge of the E-Cat has been translated by a skilled human into English — which provides a much clearer exposition of his message — something written to cheer up the people following the story on the Internet who may be plagued by fears and doubts about the validity of the E-Cat. One thing that stood out to me when I read this version was this:

I’m aware there are a number of important global companies take LENR Which Seriously (Either Technologically, Commercially or Scientifically)! One of These CAME out recently: NI. But I Can Assure You That There Are Several other ones of equal or even bigger size and minor importance!

To me, the letter seems to fit well into a consistent pattern of news that is coming from people involved with the E-Cat project –that things are moving steadily ahead, competent people and organizations are involved, and before long we will hear something positive. The full text of the translation can be found here.

  • georgehants

    From PeakProsperity.
    BlackLight Power Vs. Rossi’s Cold Fusion – Related Technologies?
    Two new revolutionary technologies are being developed that could change our planet. Are they related to each other fundamentally or do they utilize different phenomena?
    Buddy of Georgia, USA
    for Pure Energy Systems News

    Today we are facing an energy crisis that threatens the future of our species. Cheap energy from fossil fuels has allowed civilization to grow and expand. In the past hundred years the human population has went from millions to billions. As access to cheap fossil fuels becomes more difficult, all of this progress is threatened. Currently, there are at least two companies that claim to have technologies that could provide a solution to the energy crisis. One of these companies is Randall Mills’ BlackLight Power (BLP) and the other is Andrea Rossi’s Leonardo Corp.

  • s

    The company below claims they will be going into mass production in Sept. Any thoughts?

    • Robert Mockan

      If they do, it will be interesting to finally obtain some engine performance data.

      • For me it will be enough initially if the engine just ‘goes’! If it does, we can probably stop speculating about the best way to get electricity from LENR thermal reactors (at least on the small scale) or how to use them to propel vehicles, as there will be a better solution available. It might even become possible to re-fit existing cars with Papp engines especially designed to fit all major models. If this technology turns out to be real, I for one would find this an even more exciting development than LENR.

        I don’t get too excited by Christmas any more, but I’m beginning to get that ‘Christmas aged 9’ feeling! I hope it doesn’t turn out to be Christmas aged 59.

        • georgehants

          Peter, should I put my bottle in the fridge again, decisions, decisions.

          • George, if any of these technologies pan out, I think cracking open a bottle of cold bubbly would be entirely justified! Maybe you should put half a dozen bottles in the fridge, just in case …

    • jacob

      if mass production is considered 10 units,viewed the videos on the site,and it appears they are some of Joseph papp’s videos they found in a box in the attic,but to bad the real inventor died years ago,I can’t get a feeling of confidence from those scientists and engineers that run around in uncool dress,all are overweight and out of shape,I doubt they have been really active promoting this technology,unless they are well funded by big oil to spin their wheels without going anywhere.

      sorry,I could be wrong ,that is just my first impression

    • jacob

      technology probably works with noble gases.

      but one does not need noble gases to explode and implode at 100000 volts static electricity.

      one simply can subject a few ml of water to that voltage and you get 3000 miles an hour explosions.

      nature shows us in the form of lightning.

      and yes ,it too will drive pistons up and down ,possibly with out intake and exhaust.

    • Renzo

      What I’ve seen doesn’t insipire any confidence. It makes even Rossi look professional! I hope I’m wrong but I don’t see reasons to believe until a third party backs their claim or they publicy show a working device.

      • Barry

        True Renzo, we need much more verification. I’m afraid I’m a doubting Thomas on this one, yet staying tuned for September.

        Your right Peter, a lot happening this fall. Christmas is coming!

    • Robert Mockan

      I commented extensively about this in the E-Cat World post dated July 9 2012 titled “Why LENR Will Be Embraced”. It is still available in the E-Cat World archives. In that same post I also commented about my own experiments trying to observe the “anomalous” expansion effect when a gas mixture is sparked in a magnetic field. I saw nothing anomalous. Yet, at the Tesla conference they are advertising their “popper” for $350, that allegedly allows anyone to see the phenomena that their engine is based on. My experiments were designed to duplicate the electrical and magnetic variables of their “popper”. But everything I saw could be explained by conventional science. So what is going on at PlasmERG and Inteligentry?
      When I post my opinion about that my comment always gets moderated to the trash heap and never appears, so I will refrain from using the word I use to describe the PlasmERG engine this time. But here are some thoughts to keep in mind. If the expansion anomaly exists, it does not follow the laws of thermodynamics, does not follow the Gas Laws, and does not derive from any nuclear fission or fusion process. If the engine is real, and by that I mean if it outputs more shaft horsepower than the electric power used to power itself, then it is a technology based on a still unknown science. Having said all that I still think they may have something. Dr.Thomas Bearden, in his book ENERGY FROM THE VACUUM on page 143 discusses a concept called giant negentropy, that has to do with reordering (polarizing with a magnetic field) the local vacuum (virtual particle space, also called Dirac space). A magnetic field does polarize Dirac space in accordance with known science, but the effect should be unobservable and below what can even be measured with the selonoid coil PlasmERG is using. However, the broken dipoles of the plasma state could theoretically provide the negentropy to draw energy from a polarized vacuum state, if certain conditions are met. That still does not explain the characteristics of the Inteligentry “plasmic transition process” phenomena, because according to all known science the PlasmERG engine can not generate those conditions, by many, many orders of magnitudes. We are talking about conditions that might exist in neutron stars and around black holes, but nothing on earth should be able to even approach the necessary conditions. So my thoughts about the company going into production in September? All I can think is that if they really do have something, I am going to be pissed no end because it would be exactly the kind of energy thing I’ve been looking for (along with a lot of other people) for a very long time! And if real, the future will arrive much sooner than we thought.

    • TTA

      The Biggest Internet Fraud Ever!!!

      Following the various energy’s researches for few months, I’ve managed to assemble the puzzle and came to the understanding:
      Ladies and gentlemen, we’ve been deceived!
      I will not write too many details just that:
      PESN, Peswiki, SmartScarecrow, Vortex emails feeds, Sterling Allan and more.
      A well coordinated net feeding us and the rest of the internet with lies and hopes in order to create tremendous cash flow into their pockets.
      The last puzzle part was yesterday when we’ve, seemingly, watched Inteligentry’s podium at the TeslaTech conference and Inteligentry’s “Representatives” being interviewed to Mr. Sterling. Well… what you saw was not in the conference! They wanted us to think so but it was not even close.
      What I want you all to understand is that there is a good, well synchronized mechanism which pump us up, day by day, with data for 5 new, unreal energies sources. The Hip, done by this mechanism, makes people put their money and order the products in advance, even without proving that they really exist and work.
      I was a believer, I truly wanted these technologies to work, I’ve really hoped that my children future will be better. I was wrong!
      Looking at this in a logic point of view, without the hopes and wishes, one can really see the solid mismatches for the new technologies stories.
      Go a head and do your research, it will not take long before you discover the connections between all parties involved and the methods in which they have performed in order to out wise us.

      Good Luck!

      The Truth Analyzer

      • Robert Mockan

        Wow! Do not be shy, TTA, say what you really think.
        Seriously, the people who investigate the new and alternate energy claims do not rely on the Internet for proof. In fact much of the evidence for many claims predates the Internet.

        • psi

          Robert, this was my favorite part:

          “I was a believer, I truly wanted these technologies to work, I’ve really hoped that my children future will be better. I was wrong!”

          You couldn’t buy this kind of narrative. Well, maybe you could….?

          • Robert Mockan

            I do not dismiss what TTA says, just think he should have waited another couple months before drawing any conclusions. The part about the interview not being at the conference… and implying different people colluding to make money from the publicity and not having any real products… I would like to know his evidence before commenting more. Even though the technology has a history that predates the Internet, like I said, we are all disturbed by the “unprofessional” behavior we are observing among all these inventors, entrepreneurs, or whatever.
            I have stated before my 2 big concerns. The lack of data about the LENR catalyst, and the lack of data about the PlasmERG engine performance.

      • jacob

        sorry TTA ,or the truth analyzer,you do not arrive at the truth by just reading and pulling your hair out.

        A better way is experimentation ,they give you clear results, and that requires some thermometers some ampmeters a calculator a timer and time.

        TTA,don’t underestimate the potential ,experiment and then you know for sure.

        One experiment to try to disprove our laws of thermodynamics :

        2 copper plates,or aluminum flat plates about 20 gauge,each plate with a wire attached ,3 by 3 inch.

        install 2 spacers ,use nylon tie wrap,secure and wrap in place with electrical tape.

        1 glass jar with 1 pound of water.

        submerse the plates under water ,with the 2 wires hooked to a 110 volt plug.

        needed 1 or 2 thermometers ,i have three ,

        the amperage should be around 10 to 12 amps.

        time it for 1 minute.

        stir the water to get the temperature reading after things are unplugged

        one BTU is increasing 1 pound of water by 1 degree fahrenheit

        you will find out the results are obvious ,overunity = 1.35 to 1.38 consistently.

        be my guest if you can proof me wrong,

        so stop reading and experiment,good luck

        don’t stick your finger in the water ,when the experiment is plugged in.

        go prove me wrong somebody,please

        if you are lucky ,you may have all the parts you need in your house.

        This has been my favorite experiment for years many years ago.

    • s

      After reading their website a few times and reading the posts here, I find it interesting they would sell a “demo” kit before putting the actual product on market. They seem to imply they won’t run a test because they want their manufacturers to go first, but then they sell a kit that anyone can demo for themselves. Very interesting indeed…

      • Robert Mockan

        It does seem strange they would sell a kit, when a month from now they will be selling the engines. Since no one is going to buy the engines without the performance data sheet, and specifications, that means they must also be making available the test data on the engines. If the test data shows the engines output more power (by thousands of watts, according to their comments), than used to power it, then who needs a kit to prove to themselves the “plasmic transition process” is real?

        Very interesting indeed…

    • what if
  • s
  • clovis

    Good man good job keep up the good work.
    Back on the edge of my seat…smile

  • clovis

    Good. Man good job keep up the good work.
    Back on the edge of my seat.

  • Ivan Mohorovicic

    There’s an Abundo/Athanor update in this comment on 22passi:

    Please somebody translate properly!
    He’s speaking about a new improved version called “Hydrotron”.

    • Iggy Dalrymple
      • hammerskoj

        …. Today we assembled and switched on for the first time “Hydrotron”, the successor of “Athanor”, which replicates faithfully the principles of his ancestor, but shows a simplified design and a better operativity towards ease of [heat/energy] measurements. So now we will have an easier time in verifying the soundness of the grounding principles of device …

  • Sojourner Soo

    It needed saying, Frank. You should have let it stand.

  • Stephen Taylor

    Frank, please delete any and all. No problem. Let’s get back on subject. Also, looking forward to opening ceremonies! Best wishes.

  • s

    AR seems to claim it will take at least 20 years for a type of LENR powered car described on a website. Given that it has been claimed that domestic ecats might be available on the market next year, it’s interesting to think it might take 20 years to engineer LENR to power a car. link below

    • The problem of using the e-cat to power a car is the response time of the e-cat. It can not heat fast enough and cool fast enough to power a car. And a car is too small to dissipate the thermal energy produced.

      The ICE of a car don’t produce thermal energy but kinetic energy (combustion gas expansion). Thermal energy is dissipated and kinetic energy is transmitted to the wheels.
      To use the e-cat inside a car you need to convert thermal energy in kinetic energy (with a steam motor or something like it) or in electricity (with a TEC or from kinetic energy).
      This add bulk, costs, complexity.
      And make e-cat self-powered car not possible for now.
      If and when material science will give us better materials, lower costs, etc. to produce a car and integrate the e-cat technology it will become possible. For now it is not. The same technologies making the e-cat powered car possible are the same that would do economically competitive electric vehicles.

      The e-cat tech is not a solve all technology. It is only a solve a lot technology. Like any other technology.

      • Ivan Mohorovicic

        A LENR could be used as an onboard, constant load generator to recharge a more or less small energy buffer (electric battery or supercapacitor) in an electric vehicle when its charge drops below a certain threshold. This use wouldn’t need a fast response time.

        By having a self-rechargable electric vehicle it would become possible to decrease costs and improve vehicle dynamics and driving range (large batteries weight several hundreds kilograms).

        • Tht is the idea behind the proposed design of firs iCar ( and of Sugar plane in the less demanding configuration for LENR.
          In both case the battery allow peak power, and LENR give the cruse power.
          however if power density of turbines get better, it could be soon possible to be not far from direct drive, with just some “inertia” (heat, supercapacitor, wheel).

          note that it is not specific to lenr, since good old hybrid car of today use that, but not to increase peak power (since thermal engine is more dense then the battery) but reduce the power variation so the efficiency is optimal.

  • Stephen Taylor

    Listening to the live conference from Tesla Tech the main takeaway is the contrast between free energy speculation and real science.
    Having said that, the ill fated demonstration in 1966 involving Richard Feynman gave enough impetus that energy still flows. ($$$$) Interesting but unlikely IMHO. (Who knows? ZPE tapped? This is see it to believe it and the money comes in while the delays go on, Why they are not running this engine?)

    • Stephen Taylor

      Now they want to sell YOU a kit to make it go POP! Send your money if you must.
      Sterling Allan and Smartscarecrow cast a wide net. I respect that. How else can you catch the rare event? Now we must sieve that catch.

    • Robert Mockan

      It seems unlikely the engine works as described. They are describing an expansion effect in the cylinders drawing energy from …somewhere…, that can transfer momentum to a piston. Call it what they will, but if that is what is happening, then the military would be all over this. Since evidently they are not the conclusion is obvious.
      If true, the “plasmic transition process” could be used to build any size self propagating explosive device that would make atomic bombs look like fire crackers. A large container of the liquified noble gas mixture, use a conventional explosive to disperse it into a gaseous cloud of the correct composition, then initiate the “plasmic transition process” in the center of the cloud. KA=BOOM! Like a self propagating fuel-air explosion but much more powerful, and limited in explosive force only by the amount of gas mixture. Also the aerospace applications would have replaced rockets years ago. It costs hundreds of millions to have a space program using conventional rockets. Just one flight funding, would have been hundreds of millions of dollars, directed to perfecting and applying the “plasmic transition process” to rocketry, that would have reduced space program costs by billions over the last few years. And the companies pushing this have a little booth at a Tesla conference? Where most of the attendees are wanna be inventor kooks without even a basic science education? Sometimes I wonder if the human race has a future. And sometimes I am convinced it does not.

      • GreenWin

        Robert… while I too doubt the “process” – don’t forget that everyone must start somewhere:

      • Robert, I think the working gas is supposedly surrounded by an EM coil to produce the expansion effect. If that is the case then there are several limitations on the potential use as an explosive, including presumably the destruction of the coil during the process.

        Regarding impulse rockets based on the phenomenon, if the ‘plasmic transition process’ is real (HUGE caveats!) then the mass of plasma that could be ejected would be minute, putting the system more on a par with ion engines than chemical rockets. Presumably the plasma would collapse back to the base gas volume at the instant it left the magnetic field, i.e., at the venturi, so I’m not sure there would actually be any significant thrust at all.

        • Robert Mockan

          Hypothetically speaking that is true. Yet for an explosive effect it should be possible to use the charged particles of the plasma to create the magnetic field that encloses it. The phenomena of ball lightening comes to mind. Since we are indulging in wild speculation, if an expanding plasma somehow being maintained by the EM coil were to pass through a nozzle (venturi) also enclosed by the field, the momentum transfer to the nozzle would already have occurred before it contracts upon leaving the field. Since it would not need to collapse back through the nozzle, and would be traveling away from the rocket as a high velocity exhaust, we should have thrust in accordance with normal rocket engine equations. And high thrust, since unlike an ion engine, the “plasmic transition process” rocket engine would be drawing energy from …somewhere else… and need not be supplied from generators carried on the rocket. The small amount of power needed to initiate the process could be derived from the plasma exhaust. Thrust is dependent on exhaust velocity and the reaction mass leaving the engine per unit time. If tons of reaction mass were leaving the engine, at high velocity, we could have thousands of tons of thrust.
          Anyway, in September we shall have something tangible to consider.

        • Robert Mockan

          Peter, if the company selling this is correct about the lack of temperature increase, and the power going into the gas charge in the cylinder being less than that generated by the pressure increase and subsequent expansion, then we have some serious concepts to explain.
          The relevant variables to consider are temperature, pressure, volume, and molar quantity of gas particles. They say the plasma releases heat then absorbs it for no net increase in engine temperature as it expands and contracts. But plasma does not work that way. Without a temperature increase, the ONLY way to have a pressure increase and expansion to fill a larger volume than the initial gas state, is to have a reversible increase in the molar quantity of isolated gas particles. If work is done during the expansion then there should be a cooling effect during the contraction stage, if this is a thermodynamic system. The heat would not be re-absorbed by the plasma, but converted into work. But the work they say the engine does is greater than the input power. So it must run cold, and get even colder, if the thermodynamic laws apply. PlasmERG says a lot of nonsense about how they think the engine produces power, and obviously they are trying to maintain the impression it follows thermodynamic laws and the Boyle gas laws. But what they are describing about temperature, expansion, contraction, and so on, does NOT follow. This is why I have suggested if their engine actually outputs more power than being used to power it, they do not have a clue what is really going on inside it. If I were more inclined to fantasy thinking I might suggest a reversible dark matter manifestation appearing as gas particles in the engine, with the dark matter appearing and disappearing into Dirac space during each power pulse, causing a pressure induced expansion and contraction as the molar quantity of particles in cylinders increased and decreased. But that is even more fantastical than what PlasmERG is saying. So without more data all suggestions how the process, if real, can be used in aerospace applications of course must be considered wild speculation.

  • georgehants

    Live from the Tesla Tech Conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
    Stay Tuned !!!
    If we are able to perform the live broadcast, it will start at about 4:30pm Eastern US time (GMT-5) … those who follow “SmartScarecrow” on Twitter will get a notice 30 minutes before we go live.
    Sterling Allan is attempting to arrange a LIVE BROADCAST of some interesting events from the 2012 Extraordinary Technology Conference taking place in Albuquerque, New Mexico July 26th through July 29th. For additional information about the conference.

    • georgehants

      Live broadcast of Inteligentry “Surprise” at around 2:20 pm MDT today – Join Sterling on the SmartScarecrow network for a special live presentation of the Inteligentry “Surprise” presentation following Bob Rohner’s lecture which is scheduled to end at around 2:20 pm MDT.

      • 2:20 pm MDT = 7:20 pm for UK (GMT+1).

    • GreenWin

      All I can say is… wow. Mind expanding disclosures about the atom unexplored!! I need a nap.

  • Ged

    Does anyone know if there is some sort of news to be released this Sunday, or Monday?

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      I was actually wondering the same. What’s up with that?

      • Ged

        Watching the same sources I am, eh? It would fit the bill for what’s brewing, though a long shot.

      • Ged

        Should also mention the E-cat is no stranger to our mutual source.

        As much as I’m secretly giddy with hope it’s all related, there are much more likely possibilities.

        • Ivan Mohorovicic

          You’re right, however it wouldn’t surprise me if there really was some sort of definitive, government- or big institution-backed E-Cat announcement there. Everything would fit nicely with Rossi’s persona. Republican announcer (which would be AW)? Would that be a major announcement? Possibly triggering global interest? Unprecedented? Controversial? Worth to suspend a vacation to fully dedicate efforts on it and totally stop all postings and comments until that (which never happened before)? Not something that can just be missed and done later?

          But yes, I guess in the end it will “just” be a leak of some sort totally unrelated with LENR.

          • Ged

            Indeed, that’s exactly what got me thinking. And why Sunday, and at noon? Well, that allows the story to be scooped, but in time for the newspapers around the world (from here to Britain) to be buzzing about it Monday morning.

            The language is nothing we’ve seen before from a place with huge breaking news in the past. Nor is the behavior usual, and we can rule out a lot of things due to the call out to the media directly.

            It’s big. And straight up third party confirmation of the E-cat is the only technologically big thing I can think of that would fit this (and the only thing that’s under wraps and hidden from the media enough to be scooped; barring stuff like SETI). Think of how the Higgs boson was just a normal news piece, and that gives a nice realm of scope.

            But again, too many other more likely possibilities… Still won’t keep me from feeling this giddy hope, as there’s so many coincidences falling into place all at once. Would not be surprised for Rossi to tip AW off, due to the coverage in the past (which is how I learned about the E-cat in the first place).

            • Stephen Taylor

              OK you guys. Spill the beans. We’re all friends here, no need for the code talk. Give it to us straight. We can handle the truth and are certainly used to speculative threads. Give it up. Who is AW and what is the source you are hooked up to?
              The markets certainly think something is up.

            • Ivan Mohorovicic

              @Stephen Taylor: it’s that some people here or silently following might be sensitive about what is usually discussed in that website (citing it is often a faux pas when debating those matters), so I wanted to avoid mentioning it directly. Try clicking on the following punctuation mark.

            • Ged

              Interestingly, the update removes a great deal of the possibilities, but keeps the E-cat in the running. Still, it shifts things towards another more likely possibility we’ve heard brewing before. And since I don’t hear any leaks from our mysterious sources (like this article’s) of anything LENR side, which is what I was curious to find to corroborate with, I have to say it’s most likely unrelated.

              Also, agreed with Ivan. There’s reasons not to bring up other sources; sorry Stephen!

            • artefact

              interesting 🙂

            • Stephen Taylor

              Thanks Ivan. Your posts are very interesting as well as Ged’s and all who take the time to share their positions here. Got the link.

            • georgehants

              The mystery deepens, Wonderful, hope it’s not an anti-climax.

            • Sojourner Soo

              I’d be ashamed to post it too, were I you.

            • Stephen Taylor

              Ivan, Ged, that link did not exactly inspire me. I have saved it and will study further but on first blush, well blushing is appropriate. You can’t be serious.

        • Ivan Mohorovicic

          Oh my bad. This is one of the reasons why I didn’t want to bring this here.

          By the way, do you realize that more or less the same tones could be used (and probably are used) by skeptics to describe the LENR community as a whole? That “some of those characters are gullible as they believe in free energy, think that those cold fusion scammers will sell them home fusion reactors or even that Obama went to Mars” and so on? Would you find this generalization representative for the users of this blog, including you? If not, what makes you think that yours above is correct?

          I won’t discuss this topic further, so please don’t bother writing an excessively long reply to this comment, as I won’t answer to it.

          • Stephen Taylor

            Also seconded. None is simple but science and reason will eventually prevail. Respect to you and Ged. Sorry for the detour. Let’s get back on subject, eh?

        • Stephen Taylor


          • Sojourner Soo

            I’ll just say this: Were it not for the fact that some real scientists support LENR, the silly positions adopted by some of you regular posters here (and there) would have made me turn my back on the possibility that LENR is real long ago. I wonder if you are aware of the PR damage you do? Thank goodness for real scientists.

            • Barry

              You have to sift and filter for truth everywhere, including among “real scientist”. So many of them have misinformed.

              You have to filter here too. With this in mind, Ecat World has been a wellspring of CF awareness.

  • Mark

    @Vector wrote;

    >The goal of this experimentation is to find a strongly measurable,
    >replication and unambiguous phenomenon, to be used as a tool for the >systematic study of LENR phenomena. It must be noted, in fact, that
    >one of the greatest difficulties that researchers traditionally had to
    >face in this field (and partially still have to face) is the lack of
    >perfectly repeatable and controllable phenomena.

    Yes, I as I have said previously, scientists need booth a replicatable
    and high flux LENR energy source in order to perform additional
    experiments reliably. They are getting there, but are still not
    there yet.


  • georgehants

    Have no idea if this is old hat.

    Free Energy – Nuclear Engineer M.T. Keshe @ ElektorLive!
    Nuclear Engineer M.T. Keshe explains how a new understanding of physics leads to alternative methods to generate electricity. The presentation was held at the Elektor Live! electronics event held in Eindhoven, Netherlands 26 November 2011.

  • artefact

    Brillouin Energy is gone from the ICCF17 program 🙁

    • Robert Mockan

      National security issue?

  • Jim Johnson

    Re doubts and convictions: It would be interesting to see a relationship map, with Rossi at the center, first circle around him being people who have made statements about observing e-cat performance, second circle people who have said that they have heard things directly from Rossi, third circle being people who have stated that they have taken actions (like setting up business lines) based on e-cat (this would include NI, for example), with organization names, titles, credentials, and other levels and connections between people. I suspect the veterans of this site have that in their heads; it might be helpful to some people’s level of conviction (mine, for example) to see it on paper. The more interesting posts on this site have to do with engineering ideas that assume e-cat reality. Those are based on having enough conviction to allow creative thinking. Such a map is would be based on the objective realities of people’s statements; but in total an objective reality none the less.

  • Sojourner Soo

    Does anybody have updated information about DGT? Where they chose to move to, etc.?

    • Ged

      Lu, below, posted saying Defkalion may be moving to Vancouver BC, Canada.

      • Sojourner Soo

        Really?! OMG! That would be so fantastic. That’s where Dr. Suzuki lives… I so hope it IS Vancouver. That place is paradise! I pray that is correct. I’m spreading the news. Thanks so much!

        • Lu

          I’m only repeating what I’ve heard. Also this is mentioned on the PESN site. Until Defkalion announces it I would not count on it. Actually, until Defkalion actually moves, I would not count on it, LOL!

          • Sojourner Soo

            You’re quite right, of course. I’ll wait for confirmation before I get excited. Oh, nonsense. I’m excited until I hear DGT is not coming to Canada. 🙂

      • Sojourner Soo

        If DGT is moving to BC, then people might want to know what’s been happening in Canada lately, particularly with regard to the tarsands, British Columbia, and the federal HarperCon government:

        Here’s one comment under the above story: “Christy Clark may want money. However, the people of BC are 80% behind the F.N. citizens, to keep the atrocities of the Enbridge pipeline and the dirty tar tankers, the hell out of our province and our sea. BC is not for sale to anyone, for any reason. BC citizens are in favor, of Premier Redford, keeping her money, and her lethal chemical laced Bitumen to herself. We want neither. Harper and Campbell did enough dirt to the BC people. Harper can go to hell too.”

        • Sojourner Soo

          Also, the BC Premier announced today at the Canadian provincial premiers conference that BC would NOT be participating in a National Energy Plan for Canada, as the Premier of Alberta has been calling for (she wants the East to import Alberta bitumen, instead of importing foreign oil) unless BC was given a “fair share” of the royalties and profits for incurring the risks of pipeline and oil-spills on BC’s interior and coast:

          And, earlier this week CNOOC, a Chinese SOE (state owned enterprise) energy company, announced it was buying NEXEN, an Canadian oil company, for $15 Billion. Today, a top Democratic senator told Timothy Geithner that the U.S. government should block this bid, until China’s government provides fair access for U.S. companies that want to invest in China. PM Harper is encouraging more Chinese investment in the tarsands, in retaliation for Obama’s decision to delay the KXL pipeline, which would have shipped tarsands dilbit (diluted bitumen) through the US midwest and across a major aquifer to Texan refineries on the Gulf coast, until after the November presidential elections. Interesting times in my country.

    • s

      In general, it’s always good to have an excuse when missing announced deadlines, wouldn’t you say? Any thoughts on what the next excuse for an LENR company will be?

  • Supervisor

    Defkalion seem again few months delayed:

    http:[email protected]/msg67992.html

    Mr. Gluck:

    Fri, 27 Jul 2012 08:16:23 -0700

    Defkalion is fast, but this is a radical change- relocation at thousands of
    kilometers from Greece and it will last a bit till they start working full
    steam (Ni-H generated) again. As soon as we re-establish communication, I
    will ask them; but first things first; they have their priorities and I
    respect this.
    Alex Xanthoulis has cut a new Gordian Knot.

    • Sojourner Soo

      We were reading the same thing. Thousands of kilometers. I guess that rules out Canada.

      • Ged

        Not at all. Vancouver, BC to Athens, Greece is about 9.7 thousand kilometers.

        • Sojourner Soo

          True. But I was hoping Ontario. That would be tens of thousands of kilometers…But, I am really happy with British Columbia, too. Gosh! This is the best news EVER!!!

    • daniel maris

      Defkalion treated their supporters with contempt. They can take a little contempt in return until they actually come up with some evidence.

  • Anonymole

    I love frosting. I love cake more. How much more frosting, hearsay, “I’ve got secrets that I won’t share”, “It’s real I tell you and I’m one to know”, and this continued innuendo must we take before we get to eat cake? I sure hope there’s cake. If it’s just a cardboard box shaped like a LENR cake I’m afraid the world will be going hungry soon.

    How about all LENR blogs take a pledge to refrain from relaying inflated hearsay and wait it out until true news of substance breaks through this facade of secrecy.

  • Sanjeev

    As usual nothing solid or believable, all this non-info for what ?
    At least he should have mentioned one name or one mega co, that he claims is in this field. He did a good job of covering up anyway.

    Disappointing, Rossi and his gang, but I find his views on dogmatism pretty accurate. This is my experience also, he hits right on the nerve.

    Its unfortunate that only shallow and power loving people tend to rise to the top. Real and humble scientists have no interest in positions etc, nor in politics. The people in positions are afraid of losing their hard earned ‘respect’, importance and source of income and try their best to stop anything new happening.

    They get rid of staff and colleagues who are not in their favor and recruit more of their ‘type’. Slowly the whole organization turns into a rotten mess. This happens not only in the field of science, but also in any organization that has any kind of hierarchy.

    The progress happens very slowly, the authorities die off or retire or someone more ‘powerful’ displaces them.

    • Omega Z


      Loss of respect’, importance and source of income. Totally agree. Not all earned this, but got there by connections.

      Also they did point out NI going public in their support of LENR so there is at least 1 Major Corp.

      What many of us tend to overlook is, The Number of Prestigious People who are involved & many of them who have a much closer connection with Rossi who put up a wall of Silence. No Negativism from these people. What they have seen or are aware of must be impressive for them to remain silent.

      It’s also known publicly that there’s supposedly a connection with Siemens. We have no confirmation of this from Siemens. For me, Their Silence Speaks Volumes. Corporations are very touchy about appearances. They tend to distance themselves in very short order. The Data or whatever they have been privy to must be very favorable.

      I would think those involved wouldn’t want Convincing Evidence revealed to soon. They’ll want to position themselves for future opportunities.

      • Sanjeev

        NI has already gone public in their own presentation. Vector’s mention of NI, therefore, does not imply that he knows more than others.

        I have no proof that he is just making up the (non)info, but its difficult to trust when there is nothing substantial, including his own name.

  • While I hold much hope for LENR, I would like to see more solid information about the e-cat to believe anymore from Rossi. Since last year, there has been too much chat and not enough substance.

  • dragonX

    I am so bored!!!! Can’t wait until ICCF-17!

    At this point, I will take even a new “Rossi says” or “Defkalion says” that adds some new info on commercial LENR :-).

  • N810

    It would probaly be fairly easy to combine a sterling and an ecat,
    companines like have had
    CHP sterling for a very long time, all you would have to do is swap out the heat source.

    Although for electrical generetion I immagine a single cylinder “piston free” sterling generator would be the way to go.
    Like these from

  • I think this screed has been overhyped. Whomever did the second translation was not being very careful as the many errors in English grammar show. It does not deliver any hard facts or useful observations.
    For a person who is supposed to be knowledgeable about the current state of research, he is remarkably void of links and references to current studies. He seems to have a very high opinion of himself that is not borne out by his message.

    • georgehants

      Time will tell, as always.

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      I think the author himself (“Vettore”) made this translation. To me it’s much clearer than the original Google translation despite some grammar errors (perhaps haste-induced. Other 22passi articles translated in English in the past have been usually made days later than the original ones).

      By the way, it’s unusual that an article gets translated in English on 22passi, from what I’ve seen so far. When this happens it’s because it’s important in some way, so I wouldn’t dismiss this so quickly. Maybe there’s more than meets the eye. Or maybe we can even take it as a short preview of what will happen quite soon in the LENR world. That’s what is implied, I think.

      I believe we’ll know soon enough.

      • Lu

        I think both versions have been edited and refined and not just for readability.

  • georgehants

    Reading the report brings to mind the fact that nothing in reality is based on any knowledge or even theory that could ever be considered to be acceptably, known.
    All science is based on a few measurements etc without the slightest understanding of what, creates or lies behind the reality that we know.
    Science likes to arrogantly give the impression that it knows, it knows almost nothing and until they are willing to stand up and shout this, progress is inherently blocked by a psychology that fears to admit, We don’t know.
    There is not the slightest Evidence of where everything came from and every hypothesis from religion to the big bang just pushes the origin back one more step.
    Maybe our Universe was created by a nerd working in a laboratory in an advanced place where creating Universes is a required part of a degree course.
    The World is quantum not classical, only being investigated now, 60 years delayed because of the realisation that all classical codes could be decipher in seconds this way.
    Defense and Commerce legitimise the research into a subject mainly hidden by the establishment because they fear to tell people, we don’t know.
    Every child should be taught at the age of about 8 that the World is not as it seems but a Wonderful, Exciting place that we all have the privilege to share in the discovery of it’s True reality.

    • Barry

      Hey GH, our relative world seems and behaves classical (Newtonian). Shortest path between two points is a straight line. When you go to the macrocosm or the micro, things change. In Einstein’s macro the line is actually curved. In the micro (Quantum) the shortest distance between two points is a quantum leap. Go beyond the macro and micro and things change again and are beyond our scope. Go beyond that and???? Ours is a relative spacetime dimension.

      So many have put down CF because it doesn’t fit into the ways they have been taught as if we understand the molecular realm. We have barely scratched the surface. At least an ageing Einstein had the humility to say he studied light all his life an towards the end still didn’t understand it.

      There’s a Persian saying “Follow the man who is searching for the truth, but run from the man who says he found it”. Peace, Barry

      • georgehants

        Barry, Einstein said, “these days every Tom Dick and Harry thinks they know what the photon is but they are mistaken.”
        70 years later the same is true and still they will not stand up and say Wonderful, we don’t have a clue what the photon or almost everything else is, —-
        Lets have fun and find out.

  • Stephen Taylor

    Wow, the full translation is quite an interesting read. Many thanks to Vettore, Admin, and whoever did the translation.

  • Ivan Mohorovicic

    @admin: I’m not sure where “minor” came from in your excerpt. This is the original text (in English) on that 22passi website. It mentions that larger and more important companies than NI are about to publicly disclose their LENR involvement:

    I’m aware that there are a number of important global companies which take LENR seriously (either technologically, scientifically or commercially)! One of these recently came out: NI. But I can assure you that there are several other ones of equal or even bigger size and importance!

  • georgehants

    Just like to say thank you to all the people on page that keep us updated with the latest news and information.
    One would hope that all the so called professionals are watching events on Cold Fusion here, as they can receive absolutely zero data from scientific journals etc.
    The scientific establishment is meant to lead, not tag along behind the few brave rebels willing to research the Truth.
    They appear like reluctant lap dogs, dragged into reality by events.
    It all must be soul destroying for those genuine scientists and students who entered science to help the World and discover important new things.

    Science has been debunking magnetism used for health for 100 years, not from Evidence but pure Dogma.
    How many, potentially have suffered because of this irrational debunking by “opinion experts”

    New research confirms efficacy of transcranial magnetic stimulation for depression
    Naturalistic study shows transcranial magnetic stimulation works for depression in real-life clinical practice settings.

    • GreenWin

      “The scientific establishment is meant to lead, not tag along behind the few brave rebels willing to research the Truth.”

      Not so sure this is the human condition George. It has almost always been those who color outside the lines that lead. Thank YOU for your excellent contributions.

      • georgehants

        Thanks GreenWin, would you agree that if only science could mature and learn to applaud and embrace the possible Einsteins of this World who propose out of the box science, then both science and the World would be a better place.
        Instead of denying and abusing, tolerate and encourage, especially the young.
        If the idea is true or false will always follow so no mistakes will be made, just a much healthier and happier atmosphere for all scientists, without the petty jealousy’s and closed-minds destroying True science.

        • GreenWin

          Yes george. The human condition seeks attention – to self-actualize. There is innate fear of others doing the same, hence competition. This is likely simple immaturity based on survival instinct.

          With comprehension that there is abundance, plenty of everything for everyone, one hopes these old survivalist traits will diminish.

  • Blanco69

    Rossi has hinted at direct conversion from high temp heat to electricity. Can anyone through some light on how this might work? Most of our current energy generation ( solar aside) is brought about by some form of mechanical movement. So I’m usure as to the efficiency of direct conversion.

    • Stephen Taylor

      Google MTPV for the a likely player in this area. (Rossi blog)

      Bernie Koppenhofer
      July 26th, 2012 at 5:06 PM

      I would suggest a meeting between Applied Materials, Northwater Capital Management, MTPV and Mr. Rossi as soon as possible.

      Andrea Rossi
      July 26th, 2012 at 7:08 PM

      Dear Bernie Koppenhofer:
      I am here, in the USA, no problem.
      Warm Regards,

      • GreenWin

        The MTPV “5 Quad Panel” says it can deliver up to 2.5kWe. Don’t know what the thermal input is but that’s 25% of Rev 1.0 e-cat. Which would be astonishing and great.

        Also wonderful to see how receptive AR is to these new ideas. A multidimensional man.

    • Stephen Taylor

      Also, Blanco69, Lonnie Johnson is working on a high efficiency version called the Johnson Thermo-Electrochemical Converter System. Worth a look here:
      More via google of course. His system could reach 30 or 40 percent theoretically. I think most current systems are single digit or maybe slightly better conversion efficiency aren’t they?

      • Peter Hagelstein of MIT also claims to be on the track of high efficiency conversion (90% Carnot limit, i.e., about 45% absolute):

        • Stephen Taylor

          I surely hope he will be successful. What a combination it would be. Prof. Hagelstein and so many others in the field deserve a breakthrough and we need it.

          • GreenWin

            Stephen, I think Peter H is going to have his day. And a lot of “haters” at MIT will rue it.

            • Stephen Taylor

              Agreed. Also agree with your emphasis on CHP. In Florida we call it CRP (Combined Refrigeration and Power). 🙂

    • Lu

      Rossi has stated that they are looking into this approach because a Carnot cycle based mechanism is not appropriate for home use. He also referred to direct conversion as being at the research level. He may be getting some help here but a home E-Cat generating electricity doesn’t look to me like a possibility anytime soon. On the other hand E-Cats locally generating electricity coming in from the grid looks quite promising given the high-temperatures and stability apparently achieved. But Rossi has also stated they have not yet tried to generate electricity with the E-Cat.

      • Ivan Mohorovicic

        Don’t ask me why, but I’m getting more and more convinced that the next step will be LENR-enhanced chemical electrical Ni-H batteries. Indirect conversion of excess heat into electric energy with gas turbines or thermoelectric generators would be something best left for special high temperature applications.

      • Robert Mockan

        Rossi needs to take another look at thermoacoustic generators.
        These are not experimental, are completely self contained, have indefinite life time, operate well with compressed hydrogen, can be adapted for refrigeration as well as electric power, have demonstrated conversion efficiencies above the mandatory 16.8% needed using a COP6 LENR heat source (actually demonstrated over 30% conversion efficiency), do not use exotic materials in their construction, are relatively simple to build, have no moving parts except for a flex spring with a life time that can be designed for hundreds of years, are light weight, and mass produced they can be inexpensive compared to other Carnot cycle systems. They also have a design configuration that makes them ideal for the LENR catalyst heat source that can be integrated inside their construction.

        • Robert Mockan

          Internet articles are often full of hype. To learn about the subject I recommend the book by G.W. Swift titled “Thermoacoustics”, copyright 2002. At the time he was a member of the Los Alamos National Laboratory Condensed Matter and Thermal Physics Group. The book is published by the Acoustical Society of America through the American Institute of Physics. The highest efficiencies studied (cited in the book) is 40%, and that was 10 years ago. Make sure you get the included CD, that includes the math calculations for designs.

          • Omega Z

            I can see an E-cat powered CHP unit with Thermal electric device being the most cost effective. Or possibly an acoustic generator. Toss in an Ion air battery.

        • GreenWin

          Interesting Robert. But at Rev 1.0 e-cat T, I see about 80W acoustic @ 75Hz… 20% conversion via alternator = 16We (Aster-Thermoacoustics.) Clearly FAR too little for commerce. Although the traveling wave is a Carnot piston replacement – the free-piston “alternator” keeps this an electromechanical device. NASA has looked pretty hard at these alternatives and remains sold on the ASRG (micro-Stirling.)

          Will look at Forums to continue discussion. I have an idea for nuclear active site plasma conversion.

          • N810

            LENR Video from NASA.


            I think a LENR device would work well with their advanced radioscopic Sterling 30%-35% conversion.

            • GreenWin

              You are right N810. And THAT is precisely the message delivered by Dr. George Miley at the Emerging Technologies for Space conf. in Woodlands TX in March.

            • Barry

              Thanks N810, I think this is the old video edited. Seems more concise. It is interesting that they mention hydrogen, nickel and CARBON. I think carbon is the well guarded catalyst.

          • Robert Mockan

            But take a look here:


            and here:


            On page 6 of the second link see fig 5, that generates 1750 watts at 30%, with no moving parts.
            That is thermal to “acoustic” power conversion, but a linear generator at 90% coupled to that still gives an overall 27% thermal to electric conversion.

            But note especially the “hot heat exchanger” configuration, and location, inside the unit. If that were replaced with the LENR catalyst in plate or tube form, and the unit pressurized with hydrogen, the hydrogen would serve as the heat exchange medium, also as a carrier for the the acoustic wave power that would insure pressure cycling of the catalyst causing maximum thermal power output, and as the carrier of the acoustic wave power to the linear pulse generator. For design simplicity the higher power configuration of page 7 could be used.

            With no moving parts and improved LENR catalyst, this kind of design might operate for decades without any maintenance if extra catalyst is built into the primary heat source/exchanger.

            Using internally generated acoustic power might also improve COP if it can be used to supply some of the catalyst activation.

            This particular unit is actually a Stirling engine, but using thermoacoustics to replace the mechanical components, thus the high efficiency and ling life in small size.

          • Robert Mockan

            I have not looked at Astor-Thermoacoustic, and prefer to use the scientific literature as my primary sources. Too long to post here, but I just posted a commentary about using LENR with thermo acoustics at my blogspot at OPEN SOURCE NUCLEAR FUEL, titled “LENR POWERED THERMOACOUSTIC GENERATORS”. Greater than 20% efficiencies were being obtained back in 2004. Presently over 30% thermal to acoustic to electrical conversion feasible, without the exotic NASA materials they use in their designs.

          • GreenWin

            Okay. After looking at the TASHE and LANL 1kW design – this seems a lot more feasible. Especially the alternator design that avoids a high temp (i.e. Stirling) linear piston. It is still two moving pistons (two alternators.) The required heat ~650C means e-cat Rev 2 and somewhere to dump the unused (7kW) beside heating water. Hence my push for CHP.

            The LANL design was for 1750W acoustic, suggesting they convert 60% to useful AC – 1050W. Overall a 10kW heat source should produce 2.4kWe at 25% efficiency.

            Just wonder as you point out if the same efficiencies can result from less exotic materials. For consumer purposes MTBF of <50kh would be okay. The fancy alternator is not needed. Maybe a simpler diaphragm-type voice coil could work, provided an acoustic impedance match.

            All in all a good candidate for the higher temp (rev2) e-cat. The power goal should be 2.5-5kWe IMO. But most micro-CHP today delivers 1kWe so this would be an improvement. As for the LENR integration – could an h2 acoustic wave assist the catalyst reaction rate?? Data indicates yes. Fun.

  • jacob

    thanks GreenWin for reminding us about CHP and Siemens.

    some years ago I was thinking of building a Sterling engine ,instead of 2 pistons instead use thin steel membranes for low heat conversion,on the hot and cold side, to generating mechanical power.

    I don’t know how many people realize the potential of 1000C E-cat can have by using a sterling engine in a CHP unit.

    A CHP is a furnace,originally designed for using oil or natural gas as a heat source,and to partially produce electrical power from heat created using to heat the hot side of a sterling engine.

    control systems have already been built and designed for these units by several companies .

    Siemens seems to have the edge.

    I would see it as plausible,that a new generation of CHP’s could be self running with an unlimited COP using a high temperature E-CAT instead of heating fuel and natural gas,using outside electrical power only to bring the E-Cat up to operating temperature.

    Who can see this also? as a good possibility .

    • Filip47

      Imagine having the opportunity to buy an High Temp Ecat and start experimenting ourselfs, wouldn’t that be great!
      It could be a contest: build the most efficient electricity generator.

      • Barry

        Filip, I can offer my cordless screwdriver.

        • GreenWin

          Barry, would that be a filip screwdriver??

          • Barry

            Heh heh heh!

    • LENR4you

      Combine both NiH reactor insight the stirling engine. Working gas is H2. This is already in patenting process.

    • AlainCo

      CHP is linked to the paradigm of expensive fuel and expensive electricity.
      It is very adapted to the German situation where electricity price is much above average. maybe also is there some subsidies, at least forced buying by the grid.

      Stirling engine have good reputation on Internet, but not for engineers.
      The efficiency is not so high compared to good turbines, because Stirling engine is far from theory.

      However for very small engines, turbine are bad too, and hard to implement, so you find some Stirling, with an awful efficiency, but working.

      Globally in my opinion, on long term, CHP will die because CHP is an expensive solution to save energy, and also to get around taxes on electricity that you find on place where solar/wind is heavily subsidized, and of bad electricity production infrastructure (like in Germany because of market regulation there).

      however maybe temporarily it will be a way to get around the dysfunctional market of electricity, until the low price of LENR is visible as the price of electricity.
      It will also make pressure on electricity producers to reduce the price quickly. but the investment is big for a house (10-20 years of electric+heating bill)

      • Maximum theoretical efficiency of conversion, heat to electricity, is the Carnot limit of approx. 51%, so even with a TEG at or near this it will be necessary to dump half of the heat produced. Rather than vent it, CHP (e.g. hot water + electrical power) would seem to be the optimum solution with a Rossi-type reactor. Of course if the Brillouin direct output cell works as claimed, thermal reactors might be redundant for powergen.

        • Ged

          Actually, at 1000 C, a Carnot cycle heat engine can get up to 70% efficiency or more . Sadly, on practical implimentation, nothing really gets close to the theoretical limit.

          Of course, there are other methods to convert energy, with their own limits, other than the Carnot theorem.

        • GreenWin

          While the actual efficiencies of these CHP systems may be well short of theory – instilling the idea in the public mind that your hot water heater can ALSO make electricity for you – is the goal.

          And working with primary heat energy we can produce FOUR desirable services:

          1) Radiant heat for cold climes
          2) Hot water for showers & washing
          3) Electricity
          4) Chiller-type cooling (cheap AC for hot climes)

          AR is not enthused about Carnot cycles for the home. I agree. But we gotto start somewhere and a hot water heater with Stirling genset attached (ie CHP) is an accepted and government subsidized product today.

  • s

    A lot of words with no technical data or independently verified results. I wonder where I’ve seen that before…?

    • Filip47

      I am an open minded skeptic, but I am hopeful. It’s not just one man in his garage involved, it’s bigger, the question is: how big? the question is: will the outcome satisfy me?

      • Barry

        It’s the close minded skeptics that you have to look out for. If the world were made of them, we’d all be living in a cave huddled around a campfire (probably without the fire!).

        • s

          In my opinion, no one is being skeptical here. We are being realistic. In the real world, people require indisputable proof before investing money or taking action. If someone claims they have a breakthrough that would change the laws of physics, they need to provide strong supporting evidence, wouldn’t you agree?

          • “…they need to provide strong supporting evidence, wouldn’t you agree?”

            No. Why should they? They’re not selling to me, I’m not buying from them. They make a claim, I (or you, or anyone else) can take it or leave it, depending on their assessment of indirect evidence.

            This feeble debating point has been made ad nauseam by various ‘skeptics’, but as none of the LENR developers are obliged to answer to skeptics, or anyone else who is not directly involved, it takes us absolutely nowhere.

          • georgehants

            s, when that was done at MIT the Evidence was changed to fake an experimental failure.
            If you do not wish to follow the “scam” but just follow faulty negative logic, there are many sites will be happy to accommodate you.
            We are all sceptical here, but fairly following the Evidence.

          • GreenWin

            Thank you Peter. Look s trollish to me.

          • andreiko

            Fysica wetten kunnen niet doorbroken worden zij zijn allen relatief.

            • dickyaesta

              Physical laws can be broken when the underlying physical law is faulty!

              Still wating for the automatic translater Andreiko, while waiting maybe you can translate your posting yourself, as have many here suggested.

              I know in some years we have e-Cats to warm our houses Ipad like devices translating everything, but in the mean time it would be nicer of you translating for the rest of us than the other way around!!! If google or bing translate isn’t always correct it does help along way. p.s. I am dutch as it seems you are flemish, so for me you don’t have to translate anything, but think of the rest!!! We all have a lot to do and don’t need more hassle as we don’t have e-cats yet to save money, we have to work for a living and for energy!!

              Thank you

          • Barry

            Hey s, I was only commenting on Filip’s statement on being an “open minded skeptic”. In all honesty part of me is a doubting Thomas. I am drawn to the spiritual path and it can be self deceptive to believe in that which I want to believe from that which is relatively true.

            I have faith in LENR but I only have hope for individual branches that are promising tight, repeatable science, but I want to try for a positive, open mind like Filip.
            Peace, Barry

  • GreenWin

    This could be one of those global companies, and a product four years in development that would excel from LENR heat: