Short Q&A With Rossi — E-Cat Stable over 1000C

Today I sent a few questions to Andrea Rossi about the progress of his work. Here is the response, answers are in caps:

Rossi: I am in Miami and under big pressure, so please excuse me if I answer quickly:

1) Many people are awaiting with great anticipation the report about the high temperature E-Cats. Can you tell us when we might expect that report to be published?

WITHIN SEPTEMBER

2) What is the importance of this report to Leonardo Corp.?

VERY HIGH

3) I have read comments from anonymous sources on the Internet that you have reached stable temperatures over 1,000C.

CORRECT

a) Is this true?
YES

b) Can you share any information about these breakthroughs, if they did indeed take place as alleged?
IN THE REPORT WE WILL GIVE THIS INFO

c) Can you say anything about how many kilowatts of output are produced per square meter of the external surface area of the reactor?
IN THE REPORT

4) Can you elaborate on the “monumentous” events that you have mentioned took place recently, that you indicated were as important as October 28, 2011 in accelerating your work?
WITHIN SEPTEMBER

5) You recently stated “The certification for the domestic apparatus will take much more time.” Do you still think it is realistic to expect domestic E-Cats to be on the market around the summer of 2013?

WE CANNOT MAKE ANY COMMENT ON THIS BECAUSE DOES NOT DEPEND ON US

6) Can you say when the first non-military 1 MW plant will be delivered and in operation? When will the public know about it?

WITHIN THIS YEAR

7) Have you been involved in any testing of using E-Cat heat to create electricity yet? If so, how is progress in that area?

NOT YET

8) In addition to using steam turbines to create electricity from E-Cat heat, what other technologies that you know of might be viable for converting E-Cat heat to electricity?
WE ARE THINKING TO DIRECT CONVERSION

WARM REGARDS,
ANDREA

  • Pauly

    I think that 1000c is just the tip of the iceberg. Now that Leonardo Corp. has appearently broken the heat barrier, I see much higher temperatures in our future. Just as I believe that the disasterous affects of global warming will occur much faster than scientists think, I believe that worldwide E-Cat, and lenr energy coversion will expand rapidly and reverse those affects much faster than scientists think. Is there a point? Yes, the world is a much more fascinating place then we give it credit for. Thank God for science!

    • Rockyspoon

      Except CO2 isn’t the main component warming the earth–there is no meaningful statistical correlation between what slight warming we’re seeing since the Little Ice Age ended about 150 years ago and that highly beneficial gas. Try to find an honest graph that shows the correlation between CO2 and temperature–and PLEASSE, do NOT throw out the Hockey Stick (for that “creature” should really be thrown out; it has been debunked over and over again). You can’t find that correlation curve, because it doesn’t exist. (Someday we’ll be wishing they were still burning copious amounts of carbon fuels to keep the CO2 levels high so plants will benefit.)

  • http://ysgitdiary.blogspot.com Yordan Georgiev

    Thermoelectric device development is progressing steadily:
    http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/04/thin-film-process-boosts-bulk-alloys.html

    Any elimination of the centuries old heat to steam to turbine process will result into huge savings because it is the source of the biggest costs in electricity production – both in capital spending and maintenance costs …

    The biggest obstacles will be the regulation policies for the energy markets, which have a steady track record for being frankly said bad – Enron and the likes …

    • Stefan Flueler, Zurich

      TECs (thermo-electric devices) are very useful in tiny projects (for example to cool a laser head), but in bulk, their conversion capability is low, they are hopelessly inefficient (only 10 to 15 percent).

  • Peter

    I would love to see a home ecat that can produce both heat and electricity, to run my home. And while my hopes are high that this is all really going to happen, I have great doubt that we will see electricity production in the home ecat within the next 10 years. Temperatures are too high, risks of injury are too high, thus certification is too hard to get.
    Am I wrong? Can anybody explain how this “can” be done? (given the ecat is real in the first place).

    • AlainCo

      I doubt we will produce electricity at home in dense zone.
      not because it is impossible, but because it is not efficient.

      the best will be to have a nearby shared powerplant with few MWe, an efficient turbine, local cooling (maybe winter heating for neighbors or pools).

      various data on turbines I’ve gathered
      http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66&start=10#p941
      show that with turbine above few MW, the price per kW get 4x lower than with kW range…

      also since you will have few to heat with electricity, you will consume less.

      maybe also they will build rolling space heater with LENR, producing few kW, and consuming quite nothing.

      maybe also will electricity be so cheap, when produced at the MW range, that LENR at home will be useless, and you simply will use electricity.

      • Peter

        This then comes back to micro-grids. Localized power plant distribution. If that happens, the use of DC power may make a comeback as well, since there are losses when converting back and forth from AC to DC, and back again.
        If prices become extremely low (electricity costs), it benefits everyone. So producing in your own home is awesome, but still, there are huge gains to be had if even the move is on the part of the local energy companies who supply the electricity and maintin the transmission grid.
        I pay 15 cents per kW now. And I heat my home with a geothermal pump. My average winter electric bill is $350/month. If the price of electricity comes down from 15 cents to around 4, or even 5, cents, then I’m looking at saving $230 some odd dollars per month. How fantastic is that? It’s downright awesome!
        Still, the savings are even greater if I can generate that electricity in my own basement! Just imagine!

        • Omega Z

          Peter

          Before getting so involved with E-cat news I read an article about converting from AC to DC & reverse of. Someone developed a simple cheap technic for extremely efficient conversion of AC-DC & patented it. Reversing the process is also possible & could be patented if someone chose to do it.

          All the devices/chargers we plug in for phones & so forth could incorporate the process for about a dime in cost.

          Of course there’s only 2 ways this would happen. If 1 Corporation puts it in their product & uses it as a sales point which would cause others to follow or if it’s required by Law.

          I’d Prefer the voluntary method as it would be cheaper. Government required usually means Corporations charge much more in a resentful fashion. Technically they could design this & auto sensor shutoff into these chargers for an additional 50 cents. The consumer savings would pay for the entire unit several times in it’s life cycle.

          • Peter

            Hi Omega Z,
            That sounds really interesting. Do you have a link to that?

  • Stefan Flueler, Zurich

    Nice achievement (if true). Thermodynamics tells us: The higher the reactor temperature, the lower is entropy and the more efficient is conversion of its heat energy into other energies like mechanical energy and/or electricity. A 1000°C reactor is thus more efficient than a 600°C reactor.
    Surface temperature of 1000°C would allow energy conversion via helium gas turbines (in a closed circuit), which currently are the most efficient engines to convert heat energy into electricity.

  • LCD

    can anybody tell me where the physics of 1000c ecat is being discussed

    • joe j

      1000c ecat is yesterday’s news. Everyone needs to focus on Rossi’s attempts to get the 1500c ecat stable.

      • Rockyspoon

        Do I hear 2000?

        :)

  • Peter

    Micro-grids? AC vs DC Power?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g17f9J1-r-k
    Isn’t this a perfect fit for Rossi’s eCat?

    • Robert G

      You know….i had no clue that’s what happens to our power and you are absolutely spot on fro suggesting the micro-grid system…why waste power even if it’s virtually free

      • Omega Z

        There is now cheap & Extremely efficient technology for converting AC/DC. Who wants to replace every electrical item in their home.

  • edog

    Hey Frank (admin)

    Is it possible to get some filters or sorting Function (buttons) on the comments list?

    For example:

    List newest comments to oldest comments (which is what is does already) and reverse oldest to newest.

    but also apply this to the comment “replies”? To come back and find an interesting reply from someone takes a fair bit of manual searching.. especially when we are getting so many interested and outspoken people joining us now.. and after coming back and checking in a few days…or more like me at the moment every few hours… :)

    also to list your own comments would be handy to see if someone has an opinion about what you said? …. Im sure some of my comments have been justifiably shot down in flames and I would have loved to read the reply… but Im sure I havent found them!!

    Also.. .If you could have a “comment deleted” or “awaiting moderation” warning instead of nothing would be really handy… as some of the replies and comments make absolutely no sense!! to me…Hope you get this Frank.. not having a go at your site.. just trying to make my life easier!!! :) edog

    • Barry

      Hey edog, sounds complicated for Frank. One thing you can do is go to WordPress.org and get an image assigned to your email address. Then it will pop up beside your comments, then you can scroll on old post and find the comments you wrote quite easily. I did this with one of my drawings and it sure makes life simpler. Good luck, Barry

    • admin

      Good ideas, edog — I have been looking into this, trying to find some solutions but without success at the moment. I think Barry’s idea about an avatar is a good one. He has a very nice pic there!

      • e-dog

        Thanks guys.

        Just a note.. I couldnt get wordpress to work.. gravitar with is linked with wordpress worked fine. :)

        • e-dog

          nope… looks like it didnt work?

          • e-dog

            hahah… it worked!!

  • Chris

    Over 1000 °C is well over what I dared to hope, so soon. At this point, it should be trivial to use a turbogenerator and hence inequivocally demonstrate it, leaving no room for skepticism.

    Yes, as many say, I’ll believe it when I see it and I’m not one of the select few that have seen it, with the chance of checking for tricks. OTOH I’m not one of those prejudiced folks who assert its impossibility with mumbo jumbo about the standard model and scientific method (and many of these have studied less quantum field theory than I did). I don’t think Piantelli, Celani, Focardi et al. are mistaken. Still, these phenomena are yet to be understood, I’m not an eye witness and I’m waiting to see when Rossi or others show us all something convincingly effective.

  • Alexvs

    @admin:
    Splendid thread. Physics at reasonable level. If only the first premise were right…

  • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

    …or I’ll believe it when I see it.

  • http://www.warpfusion.com Conrad

    I keep reading e-cat news as the world is entering its 2nd Great depression in 100 years.

    There’s more than just a fiscal cliff coming. There’s a commodity crash, government bankrupt’s, and whole generations reaching retirement ages and stopping spending.

    The E-cat will be historically known as ‘The Phoenix From The Flame’ that will lift the entire world out from crashing economies!

    Rossi will be known as the forefather of the new golden age.

    Mark my words!

    • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

      Maybe.

    • Martin

      Anything that stops money for oil draining down the plug hole is a good thing…

    • Supervisor

      This is great misunderstanding.
      These new technologies firstly will cause of huge (100s billions) economic (equities, hard assets, commodities) losses.
      After that slowly these will hundreds billions of value benefits (lower costs, cleaner environment etc)

      • Miles

        Would it be correct to say that today’s PV Solar Panels are almost worthless?

        I believe the e-cat will be able to produce electricity? The global economic impact (Losses) on PV solar panels is mind-boggling massive.

        • http://www.warpfusion.com Conrad

          Yes.
          All the big greedy inverters loose money that has always been worthless.
          The people get back the power of cheap energy to their local communities without the need to import from greedy industrialists (big oil).

          = 100 year Cultural revolution.

          I’m not dreaming. a few hundred years ago was the bronze age. Bronze was rare and VERY hard to make into axes, knives and spears…
          Europe became a shi..t hole. The rich got richer and greedier peddling their bronze (mined by slaves)enslaving every community with ever higher prices… remind you of any thing.

          Until – The “iron age” came along iron ore was everywhere and was cheap to mold by any black smith.
          The Bronze market of course collapsed, followed by 100 years of relative peace and cultural revolution.

          Pretty much until religion took over to enslave every one in other ways bleeding the wealth to the high priests…wars…energy…

          • Barry

            Quite the paradigm.

      • jacob

        Good ,so these 100′s of billion economic losses ,they were overpriced anyway,because of speculation of stupidity .

        we were all paying for that overpriced obsolete addiction called,crude

  • Kim

    Pure altruism consists of sacrificing something for someone other than the self (e.g. sacrificing time, energy or possessions) with no expectation of any compensation or benefits, either direct, or indirect (for instance from recognition of the giving).

    If Andrea Rossi per chance reads this. If he would lay his cards on the table.

    I’m sure he would be the quest of honor at anyone’s table… for a long time.

    Changing the world into paradise, slaying the bankers in one fellow manuever…

    Why Not? If he has what he says he has then the bankers are done.

    He would be a hero for all time. Compensation done.

    Respect
    Kim

  • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

    I have the feeling that I/we are about to experience what is known in the world of instability phenomena as “snap-through.” Either the whole world is about to experience a tremendously swift shift in the reality of its existence, exposing a new and an abundant future or….

    • Kim

      Or What?

      “Snap Through”

      The bankers are holding this in suspension…

      Free Energy as common as water is a paradigm shift.

      Great for the Economy. Will follow a bell curve.

      They will loose control. They know this.

      Respect
      Kim

      • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

        Bankers only have their eyes on interest rates and nothing more.

  • Jacob

    Rossi mentioned that he will produce electricity direct from e-cat without turbine !
    How is that ? Can someone explain.

    • Kim

      There are materials that output a current of D.C. when
      exposed to heat. Then stored or rectified to A.C as needed. There is a loss of approx. 70% of the heat and
      only 30% conversion to electricity….ect….

      Respect
      Kim

      • Jacob

        The turbine efficiency is also 30%.
        No need to covert DC to AC – AC only needed for power transmission lines.
        All house equipments can work via DC.

        • Jacob

          DC voltage regulation is much easier than regulating AC voltage.

        • Jacob

          DC voltage regulation is much easier than regulating AC voltage.

    • jacob

      I thought he meant direct conversion into mechanical,via a sterling cycle engine with a proven conversion of about 50% eff.,sterling engine to drive a generator,as it is with existing technology on concentrated solar reflectors.

  • Hank Mills

    I posted the following comment on the JONP….

    I just remembered that the amount of power output by a black body increases dramatically as the temperature increases. So I used this calculator…

    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/radfrac.html

    and tried to figure out a rough estimation of the surface area of your current system using an output of 10kW and a temperature of 600C

    600C + X (Surface area) = 10kW

    If I substitute a guess of 1500 cm2 for the surface area I get an output of 4943.7 watts which is about half of 10kW.

    If I consider that the reactor core has two sides the surface area would be 3000 cm2, which would result in just about 10,000 watts

    Now, if I increase the temperature to 1,000C the result is 22,346 watts of output for 1,500 cm2 of surface area.

    If I multiply this by two, I get over 44kW of output.

    Of course in the real world there would be losses, but the energy output of the E-Cat has just increased dramatically.

    If the same amount of input is used for the drive, the COP can be increased.

    We have been told 1.66 kW needs to be used for a 10kW system to have a COP of 6.

    If 1.66 kW is all that is needed for a 44kW system, the COP could be as high as….

    COP 26!!!!

    Throw in some wiggle room, and a COP of 20 is easily possible.

    Is this near accurate or am I totally off?

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      The breakthrough would be if Rossi managed to make the inside of his reactors made like the substrate of automotive catalytic converters. There would be the potential of having a surface area of a hundred square meters within a very small space.

      You are correct that the difference in temperature between 600C and 1000C gives a large difference in heat power density.

      Anyway he will probably tell you that the “minimum COP is 6″.

      • Ivan Mohorovicic

        As expected!

        Andrea Rossi
        July 23rd, 2012 at 6:59 PM

        Dear Hank Mills:
        We will maintain a COP 6.
        Warm Regards,
        A.R.

        • Robert Mockan

          To “maintain” a COP 6 implies it is being limited.
          First order of business for reverse engineering, throw the COP limit controller out. The advantages of higher COP, and high temperature, are too great to ignore.To borrow some slang from a popular science fiction show… if we have a core breach at COP=20, we can flood it to shut the reactor down, or worse case eject the core!

          • Lu

            Don’t you think Rossi would increase the COP if he could? If Defkalion has the goods with its COP of 20-30 then Rossi’s E-Cat is in trouble and he would do best by having the highest COP possible.

            You may be correct that “maintain” implies at that the COP is being limited for some reason. I can think of two reasons–safety and stability. Reverse engineering and disabling the COP controller would not help here unless these issues were resolved.

            • Ivan Mohorovicic

              Most definitely commercial reasons in my opinion. I doubt he’s even actually trying to sell 1 MW plants at the moment, in fact I suspect he’s doing as much as he can to deter potentially interested people from purchasing them now. While I have good reasons (different close sources agreeing on the same details) to think he does have actual high temperature reactors under testing and that actual sales might start from Sep/Oct, I think he currently only wants to give the impression he is selling those plants, maybe to accelerate the patenting process (“we’re on the market!”).

              The first reason is that he only recently obtained actual certifications for those plants.

              The second reason is that the price point and stated performance wouldn’t make sense for any sane person willing to use such heat in an industrial environment.

              Maybe he got the COP 6 idea when Krivit told him that it is easy to overstate heat by a factor of 6 when steam is measured by volume. Perfect value to make the pseudoskeptics “chatter” as they can claim Rossi has nothing. Again, good for him until he has actual finished products (not prototypes) to sell, so that competitors won’t take him seriously. Or at least, that would be his idea.

              But of course, this is just my conjecture.

            • Lu

              Ivan, well I cannot really dispute anything you’ve said but my opinion is that Rossi is actually more interested in selling the 1M E-Cats. That is where the big money is: factories and local power generation. The grid is here to stay only it will be more local.

              According to CURES certification is much easier as well when only each installation has to be certified versus a product and/or consumer one at that.

              Rossi is promoting home E-Cats because he believes that the conversion to LENR requires that the technology be popular for it to succeed. At least that is what he says but he may also being doing so to raise investment capital. But I think he realizes and is finding out as well that it will take quite a bit of time and is not so easy to provide a plug and play replacement for what is already out there in the home.

            • Lu

              Ivan,

              P.S. I’m not so sure I agree with you about the price point. Factories requiring heat 24×7 would do well with the E-Cat based on what I can figure. It’s clean as well (aside from the electricity needed to run it).

            • Ivan Mohorovicic

              @Lu: add periodic scheduled maintenance, electricity costs, “unknown factor” due to it being a new unproven (no theory, no scientific backing other than Rossi’s word and one’s own tests) energy source, probable very low reliability with unknown total MTTF (there’s just no way a plant like what we’ve seen so far is going to be used in a mission-critical environment. It’s an engineering nonsense) and you will understand why I’m saying that.

            • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

              Regarding Rossi’s unwavering assertion that COP is 6, I agree with Ivan’s assessment. From an engineering POV it seems unlikely in the extreme that the HT system running at 1,000C would be bound by exactly the same limitations that apply to the LT version (if indeed they do), simply because of the shear amount of extra thermal energy already available.

              I think AR keeps re-stating the figure of 6 for all the reasons suggested above, but also because anything higher would mean that at 30% conversion efficiency (to electricity), a self-sustaining system could be arranged – something not possible at COP=6 unless conversion efficiency can be raised. Once this point is passed, then no grid supplies would be needed and the device becomes a head-on threat to all existing energy supplies including grid power, gas, heating oil and coal, and even IC engines burning petrol or diesel.

              As I’ve said before I believe that Rossi is trying to minimise inevitable opposition from vested interests, and the ‘COP=6′ story is one way he is attempting to do this. It is also quite noticeable that he is downplaying the idea of generating electrical power using the new reactor design, which I suspect is for exactly the same reason.

            • Barry

              Hi Lu, I’m not sure Rossi is totally for real yet, but I don’t think big money is an issue. He could sell out for perhaps billions. He does show a competitive edge and I think he’s very motivated to be top of the market.

              If his sentiments are for real he seems to want to contribute to the world in a big way and have a very successful business.

              If big corporations would operate from a selfless/selfish balance, the world would become a better place.

            • Robert Mockan

              > Peter Roe

              I agree with you Rossi may say COP6 is a limit for the reasons you give. When he was doing the trash to oil conversion business he probably new then that it was not wise to piss off people who could make legal trouble for him, but that was the nature of the business. It takes a lot of time, effort, and money to resolve legal entanglements, and the pissed off powers were counting on that to stop him. Back then the pissed off powers had government critters in their pocket, and they came down on Rossi hard with retroactive laws to make his business illegal. Now, if Rossi came out and said COP 20 at 1000 C with LENR is a fact, I would not be surprised at all if this time, instead of his business being destroyed, and putting him in jail, and forcing him into bankruptcy, the new gang of pissed off powers went after him directly and had him killed. Rossi has probably already used some of his nine lives. Let us hope the E-Cat has enough left to make it to market.

    • Robert Mockan

      The math is plausible, so what we need to know is are the assumptions good.

      If 1.66 electrical kilowatts drive a 44 thermal kilowatt system, at 1000 C, then we will have entered the realm of science fiction-like applications. Not just water heaters, even for swimming pools, not automobiles or RVs that can travel cross country without refueling, not houses with their own power generators (although all those applications will also be possible), but real sci-fi vehicles like homes built into quiet airplanes and helicopters that never need to land, or ocean touring houseboats that never need to dock, and sea water distillation for unlimited quantities of fresh water anywhere in the world, that can enable agriculture to provide many times the present global food supply. And politically speaking, we would see the fall of parasitic governments, the elimination of debt based monetary systems, and so on.

      All from COP=20.

    • Lu

      Well there is two components to power loss: irradiation and convection.

      For an E-Cat core the size of a D-Cell battery (surface area 659.8.1cm^2) at 1000C that gives us believe it or not 10,443 Watts! I’m using a spreadsheet I put together when Defkalion announced their tests. No guarantee it’s correct but I thought I would throw these numbers out.

      Of course your big assumption is that one can maintain the 1.66kW input to get to 44kW which of course would raise the COP.

    • Miles Sims

      Great Article Hank. http://peswiki.com/index.php/News:Rossi_Cold_Fusion

      I feel like i’m becoming an Advocate for e-Cat….These are Exciting Times !!

    • s

      There are a lot of assumptions in your calculations. Have people considered whether the COP of 6 is a technical limit or a belief limit? From a hypothetical standpoint only, if the COP of the Ecat was announced as less than 6 what would that do to your belief in it? Keep in mind the claimed COP in Jan 2011 seemed to be about 30 to 40. This steadily dropped to 6 where it has remained for some time.

      http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=360&cpage=1#comment-19118

      • Omega Z

        S

        The COP6 is part safety/ Part stability.

        Industrial Hot E-cats will likely have a higher COP given a little time. Maybe this will migrate to the future home versions.

    • Jack Henry

      Hank, can you explain how does this equation work?
      Temperature + Area = Power
      “600 C + X (surface area) = 10 KW”
      I am not talking about thermodynamics or Stefan-Boltzmann law in specific. Just trying to reconcile basic physical units in the equation…

  • Karl

    It all sounds great, 600 degrees C and now even controllable on 1000 C or higher. Direct electricity conversion is even more admirable, of course. This is all fantastic and I certainly believe in it and want to believe in it. Though, Rossi or someone else should by now be able give us a more solid proof of what they actually have. It does not need to be a verification of the latest development stage which surely is interesting but in this regard I do not see an end of it in sight.

    We know by now that CF/LENR or anomalous heat generation is for real can’t be hidden any more even if there is not yet any agreed theory behind it. While Rossi have decided to communicate with a large group of people on his blog, he has created a considerable attention but also enormous expectations. I think it is smart move and certainly entertaining but it also creates quite a frustration while we notice kind of a moving target from Rossis side. I can understand it in a way because the entire field is still in an early process. But still?

    After Rossis Jan 2011 demo, I imagined many of us that started to envision a home e-cat 10 KW COP 6 heater where perfectly happy if we could heat a water tank supplying 80 C water for heating and including tap water via standard heat exchangers.

    Still a product remains to be tested and demonstrated at least of a few real users in a typical home environment anywhere in the world. Just a handful of such trials would rock the mountains. When such a thing happens it would change everything in terms of media attention speed up the finance of research and development of CF/LENR.

  • admin

    A question to Italian speakers here — Rossi says a report would be released ‘within September’. It’s a bit of an odd way to say it, if he means the report would be released ‘in’ September.

    I am wondering if ‘within’ September means that it will be released within the timeframe between now and September. Is there an equivalent expression in Italian?

    Thanks!

    • AB

      He probably means no later than september (“entro settembre”).

      • admin

        Thanks, AB — that is what I suspected.

      • Loop

        I dont think that Entre would mean till September but like inside of the September or like date entering inside September.
        For “Timeframe between now and September” original Italian would said “Fino a settembre”

        • un passante

          AB is obviously right. Trust the italian speakers. “entro settembre” means no later than september. it could be tomorrow, it could be september, 30.

          entro = non più tardi di = no later than

          entro is similar to dentro (inside), and it is used to indicate that something will happen “inside” a given timeframe where you give the latest possible date. if the starting point of the timeframe is implied it is now.

          “fino a settembre” would mean that something that is taking place now (or will start taking place tomorrow) will last till september.

          • Loop

            Wait if you would say “is taking place now or will start taking place tomorrow will last till September”
            “Da ora fino a settembre” but only “fino a settembre” could not mean that it start now and will last till September, its just not logical.
            Are you the Italian University lettore?

          • Loop

            “non più tardi di” Could be used it terms of what we talked about, but only the entro is not the word. It would mean only in the time-frame of September not in the time-frame of July, August and September

  • georgehants

    Ivan Mohorovicic, hope you don’t mind, have brought your comment re. Cures up again. (No space for reply.)
    If this is true then it is clearly worrying that the Evidence is being interfered with.

    “EDIT: Actually for some reason older posts from that forum (and therefore older posts from user Cures) since about 12 hours ago aren’t accessible anymore. Somebody is watching.”

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      Maybe the admins removed public access to old (>6 months) posts for bandwidth/load reasons, who knows. It looks like it is a relatively low traffic discussion board.

  • http://www.anaxtal.com Dave Witter

    Since ICCF-17 is in August, Rossi may miss the high interest PR window if he waits until September to release his report. I expect new products to be announced at ICCF-17 in Daejeon, Korea. Maybe that is where the “big pressure” is coming from… http://www.iccf17.org/program.php

    I don’t see Leonardo on the program.

  • georgehants

    Well done Frank, somebody said this is the last Cold Fusion page giving Rossi et al a chance.
    If that is true, what a sad,sad, World we live in.

    • Kim

      Ditto on the Sad World.

      Respect Kim

    • georgehants

      Frank if you get men in black turn up offering you wheelbarrows full of cash to start knocking Cold Fusion and Rossi what would you do.
      I know unfair question – but.

      • Robert Mockan

        Just a suggestion, but to avoid soiling his hands, or worse, facing a moral dilemma, he could send it to me. I would dispose of it properly.

        • georgehants

          Robert, I don’t believe you would be tempted to take bags and bags of cash rather than stay with our Mr. Rossi. Ha

          • Robert Mockan

            Rossi? Rossi who? I would be willing to sacrifice my scruples for enough bags of cash. Like, oh….one bag?

      • Omega Z

        George

        If Men In Black show up, Frank should put on his sunshades.

    • admin

      It is strange to me George, why this story is not in the papers, on TV, all over the Internet. Even if not proven conclusively yet to many people’s satisfaction, I don’t see why people aren’t investigating this more.

      Pons and Fleischmann were all over the news back in 1989. Maybe that’s why we are where we are now …

      • georgehants

        Admin, agreed, we can only be mystified by much of the Cold Fusion story.
        That I think, is why other areas are so relevant to the subject. (fairly deemed by some to be off topic, but I wonder if they are.)
        What has big money got to do with what is happening, why are other scientifically proven subjects, denied and debunked.
        I am hoping that soon, when Rossi et al are proven to be genuine, you will keep this page going to include all scientific subjects where some “force” is being used to keep the silence, as has clearly happened with Cold Fusion for 23 years.

        • admin

          I am planning on keeping the page going, George, even after the proof we expect is presented — but I don’t know that there will be time and space to follow many other science topics. Who knows, though.

      • Ged

        Hype backlash is an incredibly damaging thing.

        • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

          But we are more than a generation on from that. Most of the science hacks and editors from P&F days will be retired, as will many of the ‘acadmics’ who led the charge. At the very least there should be silly season ‘what if’ stories about ‘mad professor’ Rossi – but there is literally not a peep from MSM. The situation is more than a little strange.

      • daniel maris

        I tried interesting the BBC Science people – didn’t even get a reply.

        It seems to me it’s an interesting science story even if you think Rossi is a scammer – in terms of how do scientists from an ancient seat of learning (Bologna) get fooled so easily. And you would think it is an ideal story for a young reporter to do some digging on. And then there is the Athanor story – the high school kids – which is pure Hollywood.

        • georgehants

          The free press may be an illusion that was once true, but the Evidence suggests it has had it’s day.
          The one question is, who is able to manipulate almost the whole of the Worlds media.
          Nothing can be more important than the potential life saving possibilities of Cold Fusion and money should be pouring into research, based just on the official solid Evidence that is available.

      • http://www.coprinf.com.ar Pachu

        Because its just words on a high skeptical science issue ?

        Demos have been very lousy.

      • Barry

        Well, there was a leading story on Comcast explaining why there are holes in donuts (no joke). Surely this is much more important than something so trivial as Cold Fusion.

  • Paul Stout

    I think that Rossi let something out of the bag on this one.
    If he is talking direct conversion, it means that he has figured out a way to get the COP way above 6.

    If he is running stable at over 1,000 C, a COP over 6 becomes inevitable.

    • Robert Mockan

      Not exactly. An electric resistance heater can have higher temperature but COP is not over 1. Rossi might be increasing electric power input into the reactor to have stability at 1000 C, that might actually lower COP. He continues to ignore the MOST important variables in all his progress reports. What percentage of the catalyst is nuclear active at any moment? With higher thermal power out per unit mass of catalyst he has clearly increased the percentage, but to what? 1 percent? 10 percent?
      What is his activation method? What happens when he uses that method with other known LENR catalyst materials, like palladium, chromium, tungsten, titanium?
      What is his theory about why LENR works? Can it be used for prediction about what improvements to make for higher COP and even higher temperature?

      • Paul Stout

        No, if he is going for direct conversion then his COP has to be much higher than 6.

        If he is getting temperatures above 1kC stable, then stability is no longer the issue. And keeping his reactors stable is why he was limiting the COP to 6 in the first place.

        • Robert Mockan

          Given how Rossi vacillates in his reports, you may be right. But just because he comments about direct conversion, that might not mean because he has higher COP. There can be other reasons wanting to do direct. Also, in his early reports he mentioned higher COP (8, or something like that), but commented the reaction was unstable. He also mentioned it being unstable at higher temperature, so who knows what is really going on. As long as he eventually markets… something to the retail public… that will be good progress.

      • joe j

        Things would work best if you avoid asking such questions.

        • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

          You may be right.

      • Omega Z

        Robert

        Checkout ECat.com… Under Ecat news, checkout News update in May

        Scroll down to: ECAT Technology Updates

        Read IT.

        • Robert Mockan

          I read that. But it does not answer any of my questions.
          One can make some assumptions. 1.5 grams of catalyst is about 1/10 of what was required in the original design. So we can assume the present catalyst has 10x as much nuclear active volume in it. But what is the percentage? Unknown.
          The activation method? (Especially now at higher temp).
          Unknown. It seems unlikely it is only the morphology of the nickel and a promoter to increase the hydrogen spillover, and disassociation on the nickel surface. The thermal power level for such a passive system is in the unbelievable range, compared to the low extra thermal power from all previous LENR systems studied. So what is the activation method? RF? Could LENR be so reactive at higher temperature that it is temperature alone that activates the catalyst? Also unknown. Finally, if Rossi has a theory, it would be based upon his observations of reactor performance, and what has been done to improve operation. He says he has a theory, but if it does not have predictive value it is probably wrong. So were the improvements in the ROSSI system based on theory, or was it experimentation?
          These questions also have a bearing on COP. The answers could tell us if there is some limit to COP, and what it is, in the nickel hydrogen system. Another point is that the temperature Rossi is doing now exceeds what Miley was seeking, trying to replace the PU238 fuel used in space probe generators with cold fusion heat source. But at COP=6 given the low thermoelectric efficiency, the Rossi catalyst still would not work for that application.

          • Omega Z

            Robert

            I’ve read many of your post & think we can both agree that the COP will improve over time.

            As I see it- COP, Stability, & High Temps seem to be interrelated. If he’s actually reached 1200`C stable as Cures has said, Rossi can probably focus on Higher COP.

            However, At this time I think he will Focus on how to chain them together to produce Electricity. That’s what my priority would be. Once this is accomplished he can always come back to improving the COP. But I agree Higher COP is needed if were going to generate electricity at home.

            COP6 will suffice at this time for commercial use if 1100`C can be maintained. It’s possible at this temp to reach between 40 to 60 percent Electrical conversion. Even at 40%, that leaves 25% to sell. That’s 5% to 8% less then most Coal plants with less up front capitol & no coal costs.

            This is Legit- Whether he comes through is to be seen– Lonnie Johnson

            http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/devices/super-soaker-inventor-nvents-new-thermoelectric-generator

    • Kim

      At 1800 Degrees F.

      30% current efficency will produce a copious amount of electricity

      No problem. (I understand all the other parameters).

      Respect
      Kim

  • Robert Mockan

    Come on Rossi. Get off your butt. Back to work Bozo! We want 2000 C, not a crummy 1000 C. Change the nickel to something else and get that temperature up! And do not forget higher COP! A prop plane flight at a snail pace of 180 knots with a steam engine flying about is TOO SLOW. But 2000 C we can start thinking about jet engines with heated air from reactor heat exchangers (or at least turbo-prop engines).

    • Ged

      What metal do you think might work? Nickel, palladium, platinum are all in the same periodic family. There is some indication that titanium also works (both stated by Dr. Storms and in the EU report). Question is how well.

      My guess is to look at the geometry and spacial packing of the nickle family metal lattices, and see what other elements make a similar packing; as that “trap size” of the lattice would be crucial for LENR based on the ELTB theory.

      • Ivan Mohorovicic

        Tungsten should work. It metls at 3422° C. There are examples of glow discharge tungsten cells in the known LENR literature, although I am not able to list them now. Incidentally it’s the same material used for Athanor (Pirelli IIS) power cells

        • Ged

          Tungsten is an interesting idea, I didn’t realize it was used in the Athanor. I would like to look at the idea of unit cell size and geometry between these different metals when I get a chance, to see if there’s some specific parameters that are important.

          EDIT: Found an amazing resource on this here http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/dl/free/0072402334/89597/sample_ch03.pdf

          Nickel is an FCC crystal structure, along with platinum, gold, palladium, lead, copper, aluminum, and silver. Nickel however has the smallest lattice constraint size.

          • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

            The tungsten needles in the Athanor design may just be there to form a conducting grid, in order to get the DC p.d. to the outer parts of the Ni powder reservoir. They look like a rather ad hoc addition.

        • Ged

          Reading more into the metal lattice info; of the FCC crystals in this document, Nickel has the smallest lattice (tightest trap), which may be why it works best. The next tightest-to-loosest FCC lattice metals are copper, palladium, and then platinum. There does seem to be a correlation of these FCC metals and their lattice sizes versus effective LENR. Palladium, for instance, works better than platinum in LENR, and nickel apparently is much better than palladium. This leaves copper to be experimented with to test this hypothesis of mine, and it would be expected to fall between nickel and palladium in ease of LENR ability and energy output.

          Titanium is a HCP lattice with size constraints tighter than nickel in one orientation and looser than platinum in another. Not exactly sure how to interpret that.

          Tungsten is a BCC lattice, which is very similar to FCC (body centric versus face centric). Tungsten’s lattice constraint is much tighter than nickel’s, along with many BCC’s such as iron and chromium. That suggests they might be superior to nickel for LENR.

          Most likely, there is a sweet spot contstraint size and orientation. Nickel might already be there, but just going off this information (and ignoring other quantum effects and interactions specific to the elements themselves), there are some candidate metals to try.

          The other parameter to consider, if ELTB theory for LENR is correct, is how well each metal lattice “resonates”, and how much resonance flex each one can produce. Analyzing that is far beyond me at the moment.

          • Robert Mockan

            Osmium has the most rigid lattice, and high temperature resistance. Nano-particles absorb hydrogen comparable to palladium. It burns in air, but prevented from contact with oxygen, contained in a hydrogen atmosphere, it might be worth looking at.
            Unfortunately a very rare element.

            • Ged

              That’s a very cool idea, Robert. I remember from my organic chemistry days that osmium has some curious properties. I would love to see some experiments with that, as its properties seem to be best matched for LENR, especially the high molar loading capacity similar to palladium (which is also important for LENR, I believe).

              Hm.. I wonder if there are alloys that could also work, rather than pure elemental metals.

          • Barry

            Thanks Ged for the articulate descriptions.

          • hempenearth

            Great resource, thanks Ged!
            Nickel having the smallest lattice (tightest trap) may be the reason it works best with hydrogen, but other metals may have lattice sizes that suit other gases. Maybe tungsten and nitrogen could produce more heat. Researchers have a busy time ahead.

      • Omega Z

        When discussing metals, you also need to consider cost & abundance/availability for the masses.

        I’m sure other devices will use different materials, but Nickel will probably be used for mainstream because of these considerations.

    • Kim

      Place nickel to plasma state with hydrogen and
      contain with magnets.

      May see 3500 c.

      Respect
      Kim

      • Omega Z

        I don’t understand the fixation on higher & higher temps. 1200`C is more then enough to get the job done.

        Going beyond this point leads to more exotic materials being needed & skyrocketing costs. Not to mention safety factors that exclude the consumer ever having access to them.

        Exceedingly high temps will only be of use for exotic projects. They will take care of themselves. The focus needs to be maintained on that which benefits the masses.

        • Kim

          I agree 1200c is enough.

          Respect
          Kim

        • Ivan Mohorovicic

          For automotive Carnot engine applications you want the highest temperature possible over the smallest space possible. But I agree that 1200 degrees C should be enough for consumer applications.

          Anyway, I think the original poster was kind of joking.

          • Robert Mockan

            Correct. Even if Rossi does nothing else he has already accomplished more in the high power and high temperature LENR field than anyone else. Even without higher COP, 2 out of 3 milestones is not bad at all.

            The reason I focus on COP is that IF 6 is a limit, then it should reveal a balance between endothermic and exothermic reactions taking place in the nickel hydrogen LENR system when activated. But Rossi on more than one instance has specifically stated the electric power input can be turned off to the E-Cat during operation, without any change in average COP, for a limited time. Previously he also said the electric power needed to be turned back on to stabilize the system (whatever that means). But that does not compute at all.
            No power in, same output power, THAT is self sustaining and has the highest COP much greater than 6! But the calculation of an average requires that to balance the self sustaining operation with unlimited COP, there MUST be intervals when using electric power that the E-Cat is generating very little thermal power from LENR, but is using lots of electric power. If this is correct, and Rossi did not misspeak about it, then this is a powerful clue about what the activation method is. It is also a clue that much higher COP should be practical for extended times.

  • Ivan Mohorovicic
    • Ged

      Here’s the machine translation from google http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fildemocratico.com%2F2012%2F07%2F23%2Ffusione-fredda-prometeon-srl-ecco-il-produttore-delle-cat-italiano%2F . Not the best translation, but still very interesting information.

      For instance, he makes it clear that product wise there is a 120 C output (exiting the reactor, so I guess that means steam temp) version of the E-cat for home heating applications, and a 600 C exiting temperature E-cat for high temp applications; and then the 1 MW plants. So, confirmation from him of all we’ve heard so far.

      Other interesting bit to me is his statement the product is ready to market.

      • un passante

        another interesting bit (a bit worrying I’d say) is that he mentions military secrets.

        • Ivan Mohorovicic

          I’m not sure how serious he is or if he’s just parroting what he’s been instructed to say. Rossi could have written the same exact things.

          No disrespect intended, it’s just that the interview sounds unnatural and lacking real new information. By the way, also note that Aldo Proia will only accept written interviews according to the Prometeon website. One more sign he probably isn’t ready to promptly answer inconvenient questions.

  • Martin

    1000C self sustaining and stable… I can imagine a free standing convection room (garage!) heater working very nicely on that sort of heat output. I really do look forward to these devises coming to market

  • daniel maris

    Well done Frank.

    To my mind the only question that really matters at this stage is Q6. Rossi is at least explicit in stating the public will know by the end of the year about the purchase of the 1MW machine by a non-miltary customer.

    Well if Rossi can live up to that promise and provide some convincing evidence, we will really be making progress!

  • Lu

    Thanks Frank for sending these questions to Rossi. And thank you Andrea Rossi for taking time out from your busy schedule to answer them. The only other question I would have asked is if the E-Cat is still limited to a COP of 6 or is there the possibility that new developments have improved upon this number.

    These are interesting times to say the least. On the one hand, Rossi is reporting amazing temperatures, and if CURES is to be believed, high output power. On the other hand, the certification process has gone from hardly mentioned, to a more time, to now much more time–whatever that means. I personally don’t see the home E-Cat in it’s current form as all that important so this does not bother me.

    One way of looking at all of this is that despite Rossi’s best intentions, things happen and Rossi misses on his statements. What Rossi is trying to do is incredible and anyone who thinks Rossi can just say “ship it” and two weeks later it’s out the door either doesn’t know what he’s talking about or works in the software industry :)

    I’m looking forward to the next few months as critical to the development and credibility of commercial LENR. We will see shortly a report by Defkalion about their testing and progress. In September we shall see Rossi’s report as well. What’s important about these reports for me is not so much the actual data but who is behind the report. And of course Rossi’s long promised public 1M E-Cat is also sometime this year.

    All of this being said, Rossi has made the statement that the market will determine the credibility of his invention and not testers. Well we are waiting fairly patiently for this but even that has it’s limits.

    • admin

      Hi Lu, you’re welcome — just glad to get a response within about 2 hours. Impressive for a man so busy.

      No one likes to hear the advice, “be patient”, when you are waiting for momentous things to ha. But we have no choice in this case. I can imagine that there is a ton of stuff involved in getting E-Cat tech developed to a point where it can go on the market.

      I don’t have much insight into the current situation, but it appears that there has been lots of progress over the last couple of years and that like you say, the next few month seems to be critical. What I have been told leads me to believe that the upcoming report will be well received.

      • Omega Z

        The Original concept for the Apple Ipad started in 2004. It came to market in what? 2010. Most People don’t realize the true product development time for something new..

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      >The only other question I would have asked is if the E-Cat is still limited to a COP of 6 or is there the possibility that new developments have improved upon this number.

      I think Rossi would has answered that the COP is 6 no matter what. This is clearly BS (I seriously doubt there are physical constraints to higher values), and I suspect he’s keeping the news of the achievement of huge (or even “mostly infinite”) stable COP values secret as his “final weapon”.

      • Ged

        That makes sense. The COP of 6 thing has always been a liability statement, as in that’s the only output ratio his company guarantees (so that, if a device is delivered with less than that, its warranty would mean you’d get a replacement; but higher than that is always possible). It’s kinda like the CPU market. You are guaranteed stability at a certain megahertz that’s advertised, but you -can- overclock a CPU to a much higher speed if you know what you are doing.

        • Barry

          From what I understand the COP for the home unit is limited to 6 for safety reasons.

          • Omega Z

            Your right Barry

            It’s mostly a safety factor. Also stability.
            Reading some of CURES posts if you believe him is that in testing they had achieved upwards of COP400+ for short periods.

      • Lu

        I’m not so sure that there isn’t a limit. For example chemical reactions have a clear input to output value. Rossi may only be able to achieve stability at commercial levels while relying on only one such (non-chemical) reaction. One W-L type reaction I’ve seen has a certain amount of energy in gives a certain amount of energy out as another example. The COP is a product of the nature of the reaction occurring.

        On the other hand other people working with LENR (including Rossi) have claimed much higher COPs and once you get over a COP of 1 it seems anything is possible (as long as it doesn’t run away from you).

        I keep asking because I believe that it should be possible, on basic principles.

  • Camilo

    Thinking in direct convertion, I recall the writings of Dr. Jean Pierre Petit about when Magnetohidrodynamics was researched in the 60′s for high efficiency direct thermal to electric conversion, efficiency over 65%. That was dictched because MHD has too many other applications, most of them military.

    • Barry

      “Magnetohidrodynamics” Wow! There’s a ten dollar word!

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        It just means ‘the way liquids respond to magnetic fields’. Silent propulsion systems using magnetohydrodynamic drives have been tried by the military in submarines – this was probably successful as the field largely just kinda disappeared back in the eighties.

  • Charles

    Mr. Rossi just proved my contention of yesterday that the official language of cold fusion is ‘Manana’. Thanks Mr. Rossi.

    I am in my 80s and I sure want to see this happen in my lifetime. Mr. Rossi, if you have a reliable producible product market it – now. You can then spend the rest of your (& my life) working on mods 1, 2, 3, . . . So far, I believe in your product and in my career was an electronics engineering supervisor. I frequently had to tell my engineers “stop improving it, wrap it up, ship it”. Do you have a supervisor?

    • Ged

      I love your sentiments. That quote is definitely something that applies here.

      Well, if you count the Australian E-cat licensee’s commercial as marketing, then I guess your wish is starting to be met? Technically Rossi has also been selling the 1 MW plants for awhile. But we’ll just have to see. It is time to throw this out there for the public, I completely agree.

  • Kim

    This is very good news!

    1000 C.

    The bankers will give the green light.

    Beyond that its just talk. Simple as that.

    Respect
    Kim

    • Kim

      18 x 1000 + 32 = 1803.2 F

      Wow!

      Respect
      Kim

      • Ged

        I think we’ve basically hit the limit. Can’t see it going much or any higher than that. Question now is flux rate of that temperature (power). This’ll probably also burn through the nickel/hydrogen fuel a lot faster, so larger capacity reactors would have to be made and optimized if Rossi wanted to keep that every-six-months-to-refuel idea.

        • Francesco CH

          He went higher, believe me.

        • Lu

          CURES reports TMAX = 1200C, whatever that means. What’s also just as if not more important is also how much power is being generated which has not been stated.

          • Ivan Mohorovicic

            He said “a lot” of kW per square meter of reactor wall, but I don’t know how much active area a single reactor has. If it’s made in layered sheets (as per Piantelli’s patents), that’s a possibly huge power density.

          • Ged

            CURES? I have not heard of this yet. I would love to hear more on this, if you have any.

            At 1200 C, temp spikes would be a great danger to the reactor; almost at the melting temp. Of course, some nickel mixtures can have a melting temp as high as 1600 C, which would give more thermal head room.

            • admin

              Take a look at yesterday’s thread on ‘Teasers from Italy’. There are some links to posts by someone named Cures, who seems to have inside info.

            • Ged

              Thanks Frank, I totally missed that thread. Time for me to catch up!

            • Ivan Mohorovicic

              @admin: not just inside info, but first hand info; he’s apparently directly involved with current tests and developments with Rossi’s latest cells.

              Let’s not expose him too much though, it would be a bummer to lose such a valuable source of information.

              EDIT: Actually for some reason older posts from that forum (and therefore older posts from user Cures) since about 12 hours ago aren’t accessible anymore. Somebody is watching.

        • Omega Z

          Rossi has actually reduced the Nickel in the new core to 1.5 grams. Same 6 months refuel time. I would guess he has improved his secret processing of the Nickel.

  • s

    Have to agree with poster Ged below. The admin often frames the questions in a way that doesn’t give the maximum amount of technical information. The temperature of the reactor core is not important. Whats important is the temperature, pressure, flow rate and thermodynamic state of the fluid being heated as it passes by the reactor.

    • admin

      Well, I knew that Rossi would not be giving out much technical info in a short Q&A like this. To be honest, I thought he’d duck my question no. 1 and say ‘in the report’.

      I was happy that he confirmed the anonymous reports.

      • Loop

        @admin
        Seems that you don’t think that Rossi is disrespecting you with such answers like we saw above.

        Your site is the last Rossi bastion and Rossi doesn’t respect that.

        In my eyes he should pay you at least 10k euros by month.
        On ecatnews Rossi lost any creditability.
        You are the last one who is fighting for him, even his each step is toward the cliff.

        I cant compare some marginal sites which support Rossi because they are marginal.

        We all heard Rossi flapping his gums for hours on marginal internet radio streams, we all saw hundreds of short answers on his site each day.

        You cant tell me that comprehensive normal answer is at least what you deserve.

        He know that you deserve that but he is buying the more time again.
        And I’m sick of it.

        I was believer in Rossi not because of the proofs but because I wanted it so bad.
        I’m not believer now, for more than 6 months, I just don’t care anymore.

        Just be smart.

        • admin

          No, I don’t feel disrespected, Loop. I’m just following the story and tying to get as much information as I can.

          I understand that people are tired of waiting, but the time it is all taking is part of the story.

          • Barry

            “the time it is all taking is part of the story.” Good statement Frank! I think we are the lucky ones, watching the unfolding stories of LENR. In all honesty, I put in a wood stove and can’t imagine winter without it, but to watch F&P be vindicated and watch all of the “Hall of Shame” scientist lose their credibility and watch the world change under our feet has been quite a ride, even though it’s like slow torture. We keep impatiently tuning in, asking from the back seat, “Are we there yet?”

        • Methusela

          Rossi hasn’t lost credibility on ecatnews.

          There are a lot of sceptics recyling the same old rubbish.

          • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

            ecatnews has very unfortunately lost all credibility by allowing the continuous repetitive half-truths of 4 or 5 fake sceptics (at least one a well-known troll whose real identity leaked last year) to be posted ad nauseam.

            I sincerely hope that Aldo Proia of Prometeon means it when he says he will take legal action against those making slanderous remarks that might damage Prometeon’s interests, or those of Rossi.

            • Ivan Mohorovicic

              I think Aldo Proia was mostly referring to news articles on Italian printed and online newspapers and influential [skeptic] blogs which have real potential for business damage. Some of them in the Italian media sphere have been very harsh against Rossi and his E-Cat, LENR and things like piezonuclear research which are loosely related to him.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      s: Please explain this “The temperature of the reactor core is not important. Whats important is the temperature, pressure, flow rate and thermodynamic state of the fluid being heated as it passes by the reactor.” If you have a reactor core at 600-1000 degrees, isn’t it just a matter of engineering the heat transfer?

      • Robert Mockan

        Heat flows from the source to the sink. A larger temperature difference allows more heat to flow in a given time. A reactor that can only operate up to 450C, and shuts down at 380 C., would need to operate in a 70 C range. This is much less than the temperature difference in typical heat exchangers used for thermal power transfer. Even with high COP it would be difficult to do much with such a heat source. But if the reactor can operate between 380 C, and 1000 C, the engineering to make it useful is greatly simplified.

        Now, if Rossi says that he can do COP=10 at 1000 C, with still cheap catalyst, we will have entered the realm of science fiction-like applications. Think personal aircraft with global range flight performance, and able to land in the middle of the ocean on pontoons for a a few hours fishing to take a break flying from the mainland to islands in Micronesia. No fuel logistic problems means complete freedom of transportation. Or think personal submarines that can circumnavigate the globe, many times, submerged! But if the COP is low, it will not matter how high the temperature is. The most important information Rossi could release would be that he has higher COP than crummy 6.

        • Barry

          Come on Robert, a COP of 6 is not to be so easily dismissed.

        • HHiram

          A high COP is only necessary for small-scale applications like vehicles and water heaters.

          For industrial-scale power generation, all that really matters is that excess heat is actually being produced. From there, you can scale energy production up by chaining reactors together, so that the first reactor’s output power is providing the input power for 2 or more other reactors. Then you simply take the power output from one of the reactors at the end of the chain and plug it into the first reactor as input. Voila, closed-circuit, and a functionally infinite COP. From there, the only limit is how many reactors you are willing to build. It then becomes an issue of economics.

          A higher per-reactor COP would be nice because then you need fewer reactors per net MW output, and so the economics would be better.

          With a COP of 6, that is a fantastic performance gain, since it basically means you can run up to 6 second-link reactors from the output power of the first reactor. And then 6 more third-link reactors for EACH of the second-link reactors. COP of 6 = 36 reactors at the third link. If they are each the size of a cargo container like Rossi’s original 1MW reactor, then that is ~35 MW from 43 cargo containers – an area the size of a small parking lot – with NO external energy inputs. That is amazing.

          These are just napkin calculations, but they give an idea of what is really important: industrial-scale power plants for generating electricity. LENR-powered airplanes would be nice, but that wouldn’t change society very much. Unlimited, cheap, clean electricity is the REAL revolution LENR offers.

          • TJ

            LENR powered aircraft would be huge. Point-to-point distribution of time sensitive goods, globally self-deployable heavy combat platforms for the military, airlines where fuel cost and range no longer drive routes, air-portable disaster response logistics (flying hospitals for the next big tsunami), etc. I agree though stationary applications are likely to come about sooner.

          • Robert Mockan

            The picture is bigger than that, but can only be seen with some math analysis.

            I will not derive this equation again, since it is long and takes awhile, so am presenting the equation as a given:

            COP x neff = (pie + poe) / pie

            where:

            COP = coefficient of performance
            neff= net conversion efficiency heat>electricity
            pie = power in electrical
            poe = power out electrical

            Pie+poe = total electric power generated

            Now, this equation actually reveals a great deal when used in different ways, but what we are interested in the application to “economics” of LENR electric power stations.

            Look what happens when neff=16.8%, that is at the high end of typical for a “small power” system (a few 10s of kilowatts electrical) with COP=6.

            6x.168=(pie/pie)+(poe/pie)—>
            1.008=1+poe/pie—>
            .008=poe/pie

            note that .008 is so close to 0 we can use 0.

            *************************
            0=poe/pie
            *************************

            what this tells us is that when COP=6, and neff=16.8%, ALL the electrical power generated by the LENR system has to return to the input (that is the pie variable), leaving 0 amount of electric power for anything else (that would be the poe variable).

            But more important in terms of economics,

            100 percent of the power plant materials, and cost of it, is ALL consumed by the power plant itself. There is NO net benefit to the consumer. There is a lot of low grade hot water from the heat exchanger… so you could keep the community swimming pool warm! But no steam for industry, no electric power for anybody.. even if the plant generates 50 kilowatts and costs 10,000 dollars. That is what COP=6 gets you!

            People say, well, a real power plant would have higher neff. Uh huh. Up in the megawatt range you start seeing 20%, even 24%, typical of a coal fired electric power plant. But now we are back to the grid. The promise of LENR for energy independence for the small user, gone again. But even 24% is nothing to write home about.

            Look at the numbers.

            6 x .24 = (pie/pie) + (poe/pie)

            1.44=1+(poe/pie)—>
            0.44=poe/pie

            This is the ratio of poe to pie.
            More important it is also the ratio of materials and costs used to build and operate the power plant, that is applied to directly benefit the consumer, compared to that applied to keep the power plant operating. Note the numbers at COP=6.

            If you have a 144 billion dollar power plant, only 44 BILLION DOLLARS of that power plant benefits the consumer!

            Note that again: Less than 1/3 of the costs actually benefit the consumer (in the above example that would be 44 billion dollars).

            But 100 BILLION dollars of the power plant, and the annual operating costs, year after year after year, serve no other purpose than to keep the power plant operating!

            Economically speaking, this is a non starter. You also have the point made here, that the first power plant in a string, still does NOT provide enough power to operate a second power plant in a string of power plants, by itself.

            The conclusion?

            COP6 stinks.

            • Barry

              All this pie talk is making me hungry. Wouldn’t a COP of 6 and the excess steam work well for home heating. I’d be happy with the fruition of a small CF miracle. The rest can follow.

            • Robert Mockan

              Barry,

              Whatever you are doing now to make heat using electricity, you could reduce that part of your electric bill to 1/6 by installing a 6 times E-Cat heat booster.

              And then the competition would sell a low flow shower mist nozzle for $9.95 to reduce your hot water usage to 1/10 of what you use now, and offer a sweater costing $14.95 to keep warm.

              When Rossi says let the market place decide, let us hope the consumer still wants to buy new technology toys instead of practicing energy conservation.

            • Barry

              I don’t know about those figures Robert. My winter $ does not go into hot water for showers but steam heat for my house and that’s with a sweater on.

    • s

      The data we were given in October seemed to deal with flow rate and temperature of the fluid passing the core. Now, it seems, the data is focused on reactor core temperature. So it is hard to compare the two items.

      I’ve already set my browser security settings so I don’t receive or see the ads from this site, which is why I resumed posting here. I won’t be a party to anyone’s receiving $ from the ecat story until the ecat is verified to work properly.

      If the September data is delayed, or if the September news deals with earthquakes, logos, licensees, clowns, snakes, etc… and is not focused on an irrefutable 3rd party test verification that the Ecat works as planned, then I might believe even more in my completely hypothetical prediction that there won’t be a home LENR device until 2016 at the earliest. I hope I’m wrong and September shows LENR can deliver high power for 6 months.

      • Omega Z

        S
        The only add that see is for Franks book. The Secret Power Beneath…

      • Barry

        How much money have you paid so far to come into this site s?

  • Filip47

    Filip=Filip47(added my age)
    I don’t know what to think of it, it’s unbelievable, I really hope it’s true.
    I grew up in the Mechanical/Electrical age. Mechanical: a few thousand years, Electrical: a hundred years, Digital: twenty years, this high-temp-Ecat, if true is going to boost us into a new era, that’s for sure.

    • Ged

      I’m taking this 1000 C to mean the core reactor temp (the reactor wall of the solid state Hot Cat). This is the highest I can ever see this being pushed, as hot spot spikes of 100 to 200 C more than that directly inside the actual nickel metal could be expected. Maybe, if -very, very- carefully regulated you might be able to get the core temp to 1400 C, but at this point the nickel is on the verge of melting and the reactor being killed.

      1000 C reactor core temp would allow 600 C actual steam temp. The 600 C reactor core temp Hot Cats would likely give about a 400 C steam temp. Hence these 1000 C core temp reactors are highly important, as 600 C steam is the “magic temperature” for steam to run out for highly efficient electrical generation in power plants.

      • Marc

        Hmmm…what are the transfer efficiences if you use helium or molten salt as the transfer medium?

        • Ged

          I honestly do not know the numbers, but I’ve heard they are very high efficiency. It’s an interesting idea, for sure, such as is used in liquid fluorine thorium reactors (which are supposedly superior to uranium reactors).

      • Filip47

        Thx, Ged.
        So, ‘we’ have a VHT-Ecat(Thx,Marc)
        The question is: how much water can it steam up? If you drive water through(by) the core. (I am trying to make an image here)
        Can it steam up water from tap-pressure? The steam must come out very(dangerousely) fast. Am I on the right track?

        • Ged

          Those are great questions. Maximum temp is one thing, but power (how fast it’s outputting that temperature) is another. If it is able to make a good amount of power sustained at those temperatures, then you could get a good flow rate going, enough to drive a full fledged steam turbine.

          My thought is one E-cat core alone probably wouldn’t be enough (not enough power), and you’d send your steam over a course of several serial E-cats till you got the pressure/temp/flowrate necessary for your applications.

          Flow enough water over an E-cat fast enough, to overwhelm its power output, and you will cool it down; so your questions are very much on the right track and good ones.

  • Ivan Mohorovicic

    Can anybody make a timeline/calendar of “Rossi promises” as they come in? So that we don’t forget them.

    • mark

      nice one :)
      This could stop me from wasting my time reading about e-cat.

      • Ivan Mohorovicic

        It’s just that I’m disappointed that the news supposed to come by the end of July have been delayed to September.

        • Luca Salvarani

          Dear Mohorovicic

          Rossi has always pointed out SEPTEMBER as the report’s deadline.

          • Josh

            True, but many other things he has promised go ignored… like the demonstration unit open to the public ‘very soon’, and the numerous customers willing to share their identity – I guess all those sales fell through. What is this “September Report”… more data like his “report” from Oct. 28? That was worthless.

            • Luca Salvarani

              I can understand your point Josh. I think that Rossi really would want these things but likely his commercial partners and clients do not for many reasons. It’s all in development and it could be fully undestandable.

    • Ged

      We’ve got…

      1) News In July 2012 – Possibly fulfilled with the Prometeon licensee reveal

      2) News Within This week of July 2012 – According to last article’s insinuations, but may be a reference to above, might be reveal of non-military 1 MW plant (doesn’t sound like that’s the case though).

      2b) Summer 2012 – Reveal by Customer of non-military 1 MW plant (I think I remember this, I could be wrong).

      3) Sometime September 2012 – For high temperature E-cats (600C-1000C, reactor wall temp), (un)officially called Hot Cats. This was originally to be in the first few weeks of July; potentially some details this week if 2) was alluding to it.

      4) Sometime October 2012 – a convention of all the licensees, where they will all be revealed to the public if they haven’t been already, and other important information and demonstrations of e-cat technology are supposedly to take place (licensees will be given the keys to the technology no later than this convention).

      5) Sometime December 2012 – Mass construction of e-cats begins, along with some deliveries of pre-orders?

      6) First Quarter 2013 – E-cats are available for purchase through licensees.

      I think that’s all the ones I know of.

      Some changes have occurred in that 5) was supposed to be October, but that was changed six months ago, due to certification time lines. Hence 5) and 6) are still up in the air, as they are subject to UL and other certifiers.

      • Marc

        I dont know about hot cats…

        I think maybe VHT-ECat…

        It would be analogous to VHTR in the nuclear world…as a gen IV reactor that produces 1000C heat heat transfer. Stands for Very High Temperature Reactor.

        Ive been hoping, for a few months now, that Rossi would hit 1000C stable. This allows for the cheap production of Hydrogen from water…and a bunch of other industrial processes.

        The irony is…that the large advantage of cheap hydrogen production is to fuel a hydrogen economy ie hydrogen fuel cell cars. But with the advent of the e-cat…It might be far more efficient and economical to strap a small ecat to a thermoelectric generator coupled to a battery powered car. So, maybe the hydrogen economy is moot now?…still amazing stuff and an amazing achievement. Still lots of things 1000C is useful for.

        • Ged

          Rossi himself actually jokingly called them “hot cats”, but I totally agree that VHT-Ecat sounds a lot more technically pleasing to say.

          Those are very interesting observations you make. Kinda be interesting to see the alternate uses such temps could be put to, and exactly which way would be most efficient — hydrogen economy or just direct thermalelectric coupling, or maybe even other alternatives we haven’t heard or thought of.

        • http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/12/cold-fusion-a-resurrection-and-an-inconvenient-truth-a-view-from-europe/?replytocom=10913#respond praos

          Hydrogen is not just for power, it’s a very important chemical agent, for instance for production of nitrogen fertilizers, plastics from coal, reduction of iron ore and (indirect) reduction of aluminium and magnesium bearing minerals, etc. And, last but not least, if you have hydrogen you can produce foods (or at least fodder) out of thin air with negligible footprint. Ditto for fibers, pulp, paper, plastics and elastomers. So don’t worry about market. Cheap hydrogen could possibly precipitate the end of agriculture as we know it.
          However, there is another point. With so many e-cats in operation, and with almost zero operating cost, immense surplus of juice in off-peak hours could be expected. So use of it for hydrogen production strikes me as a more rational option than construction of dedicated, hydrogen-producing plants.

        • Omega Z

          Marc

          Rossi calls it the Hot Cat on JONP

      • Omega Z

        It’s confusing because some of this timeline was when he was involved with DGT. His new partners may also be sticklers for staying with his revised timeline. Certain powers have to have time to reposition themselves. It’s not all about Rossi anymore.

      • Barry

        Good work Ged. This would make a good forum piece, that way it won’t get burried with future articles and can be updated.

  • Pingback: Has this promising technology been overlooked, or was it actively suppressed? - Page 6 - Parapsychology and alternative medicine forums of mind-energy.net