New E-Cat Demo Report

A report of a previously unknown (to me) E-Cat demonstration has come to my attention that I thought would be interesting to readers here. The information comes from a document on the E-Cat Australia web site. E-Cat Australia is the licensee for Leonardo corporation in the Australasia, southeast Asia and the Pacific Islands region and is headed by CEO Roger Green, who, according to a report on the Cold Fusion Now web site paid $150,000 to Leonardo for the license.

E-Cat Australia has published some details of visit by Roger Green and William Donavan to Leonardo’s Bologna premises on February 24th of this year where Andrea Rossi showed them a test in progress and allowed them to inspect (and photograph) a 1 MW plant that was at the time being refitted.

The report is found on page 9 of this document. The visitors were apparently shown an E-Cat operating in self-sustain mode. Part of the report is as follows:

[Rossi]then took out a clamp on ammeter, applying it to each conductor in sequence, showing that there was no current flow into the heaters. The reading on the digital ammeter remained at zero.

He then showed the results of the data logger running on a laptop PC connected to two temperature sensors, one inside the E-Cat, and another in a large barrel of water which was steaming. The steam temperature, according to the data logger, was 101 degrees Celsius. The logger showed a dip in the temperature, which Rossi explained as replacing water that had evaporated.

The E-Cat had been running for at least two hours in self-sustaining mode, with no power input to the unit itself.

A feed water pump was connected separately. We estimated the amount of steam produced at approximately 10 cubic cenitmeters per second. The feed water pump was sending only enough water into the generator to be boiled off as steam, and then this steam was condensing inside the barrel as a bubbler tube.

A quick calculation showed that the energy produced was less than the capacity of the generator at the time. However, it was energy with an infinite COP, with no input needed . . .

Conclusion
The Rossi E-Cat appears stable in self-sustaining mode. For how long it can maintain this, is the big question at the moment. A recent spreadsheet analysis showed that the economics, despite the power costs, is still competitive with conventional fuels except for coal. This could change once we know the ratio of power input to self sustain mode

I think it’s important to point out that this report was made about five months ago, and this version of the E-Cat is not the high temperature reactor which Rossi has been discussing lately.

Photographs of the visit can be found at E-Cat Australia’s Facebook page.

.

  • hammerskoj

    Why eCat Australia post a paper:
    http://e-cataustralia.com/pdf/NAA_of_Cold_Fusion_Thin_Films.pdf
    demonstrating that in a Pd-H electrolytic system: “the
    hypothesis that transmutation phenomena could be
    responsible for the detected impurities is not supported”?

  • Robert

    I think when comparing e-cat to coal and oil u have to take in the enviornmental costs which are impossible to calculate that is where the cat makes all the difference.

  • Omega Z

    2 Notes:

    1. Watch for NEWS on Monday July 23,2012– About good news on Italy & the E-cat

    2. The 1Mw plant was being refurbished as to Rossi’s statements at the time.

  • GreenWin

    Probably the best argued answer to LENR skeptopaths and skeptics is the following paper written by Dr. Ed Storms (LANL ret, KrivaLabs) and Dr. T. W. Grimshaw (Energy Inst. Univ Texas, Austin)

    Judging the Validity of the Fleischmann Pons Effect

    “The original claims made by Profs. Fleischmann and Pons stand and are now supported by a well documented body of work. When the criteria for science versus pseudoscience are applied to FPE, all of the criteria appear to be met. It is therefore concluded that FPE, and the research into its causes and conditions, are legitimate science rather than pseudoscience.”

    It is a comprehensive overview of the peer-reviewed data and research done through 2009. The interim 3 years have produced even more evidence and data along with the Edisonian approach of commercial ventures like BlackLight, Rossi/Focardi, and Defkalion.

    http://fusiontorch.com/uploads/StormsJudgingValidityOfFleischmannPonsEffect2009.pdf

  • AB

    I’ve got two tasks for the fellow ecat enthusiasts frequenting this site.

    1) To identify Bill Donovan. If he is from the US, has technical skills and came to verify that the ecat works as claimed then it could be interesting to find out who he works for.

    The following is known from reading the report and the facebook pictures:

    “Bill [Donovan] with the test ecat, he observed the ecat running in self-sustain mode and checked all wires, inputs, pump feeds.”

    “Bill Donovan (USA) inside the 1 MW ecat.”

    “Bill Donovan – Chief Technical Adviser for E-Cat Australia with E-Cat Industrial Unit (1MW)”.

    His picture: http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/524179_257289274386546_1099191614_n.jpg

    2) To identify Jordi Busquets. He was also present and was described as international banker. Who does he work for?

    His picture: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=257289437719863&set=a.257289254386548.58520.255415831240557&type=3

    • Camilo

      I happen to know who is Busquets. Is a Venture Capitalist. He has been around in Chile. I know because I take part in biotech bussiness and he has been scouting for interesting prospects, and even invested in at least one company here. So, at least the guy is real. However, is as clueless as anyone else regarding technical aspects.

      • Camilo

        I forgot to mention that he was his own boss, he has an angel capitalist company.

  • AB

    Could anyone provide a direct link to the document in question?

  • Methusela

    Email allegedly from DFG in ecatnews latest article comments.

    • s

      Thx for noting that. My opinion , which iS speculative and not to be considered fact, is that if any company had demonstrated airtight LENR technology that worked as they claimed, they would have more investment $ than they knew what to do with. In my opinion only, it doesnt sound right they are struggling to gain investment after giving all of those demos.

      • Farlie Paynter

        Why would a business let anyone know they have an airtight technology? I feel today’s world is cut throat ruthless and may or could remove any country or person who threatens big oils security,profits and greed and their trillion dollar businesses. It is that simple. I have met briefly Eugene Mallove, Stanley Meyer who supposedly turned down a 10 billion dollar offer for his 26 patents. I have heard of at least 10 people whose lives have been threatened, and their workshops burned down. We are not an honest loving bunch of people on this planet. And those who think otherwise could still be wearing rose coloured glasses. So it may be best to’walk softly.’

  • PersonFromPorlock

    A clamp-on ammeter will show zero current flow if it’s clamped around both power cord conductors at the same time, even though there’s current flowing. In other words, to use one on a lamp cord, you have to separate the cord into its two conductors, then put the clamp around one of them.

    Just sayin’.

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      “[Rossi]then took out a clamp on ammeter, applying it to each conductor in sequence..”

    • Italo R.

      Rossi made it exactly as you say:
      Read the report:

      “…applying it to each conductor in sequence…”

    • Ged

      You can see the pictures of the process for yourself. No need for “just saying”, just look.

      • Frank

        That clamp-on Amp.-meter looks quite cheap – can it measure DC?
        ( simple ones only measure AC )

        I read that Rossi has sold the distributor-license for Australia and 12 other regions incredible cheap, for just 150 000 US$.
        Btw: If you think that the demo Rossi gives are conclusive, why then did he waste his time (and some region licenses) with Roger Green instead of giving the same demonstration for Dick Smith?
        If he would give a convincing demonstration to Dick Smith, he could cash in 1 Mio US$ award.

  • tom h

    Its clearly stated in the above article that this was a few months back and since then rossi has announced major improvements with the new high temp e-cat.

    And as others say this is just the start, give it another 6 months to a year and there will be even more improvements.

    And even if it doesn’t get better than where its at currently (which it will) it still beats burning dirty poisinous fossil fuels which are also on a slow decline and a ever increasing price!

    We should thank our lucky stars regardless as it seems LENR will thankfully save our civilisation from the ever increasing effects of climate change and our upcoming energy crisis (mainly peak oil).

    • tom h

      dont know why this ended up here but it was meant in response to s.

  • s

    My previous coal numbers were for 2007 or 2008. Some are reporting coal is down to 1/3 of US electricity generation due to the rise of the use of clean burning natural gas for electricity. Does anyone know how the Ecat might compare to natural gas?

    • Ged

      Actually, coal is sitting above 50% usage for the US electrical generation as of 2012, while natural gas is below 50% (they are about to converge) http://205.254.135.7/coal/ .

      Since coal is cheaper than natural gas before you add in the clean coal capture technology costs.. I think that would put the E-cat on part with that according to Roger’s analysis? I think we have to actually crunch the numbers ourselves.

      • Iggy Dalrymple
        • Ged

          I’m not sure on what is being compared in that graph. The graph from the actual EIA site shows Coal above 50% and Natgas below it. http://205.254.135.7/todayinenergy/images/2012.07.13/CoalNatGasElasticity.png with data included from 2012 Jan-April. But this comparison seems to only be coal versus natural gas versus petroleum (only fossil fuel sources, so actual coal versus all energy sources may be down to 30%, if nuclear and renewables are making up for the missing amount).

          For the graph in the blogspot link, if coal and natgas are both hitting 32%, that’s only 64% of the total. So where are the other energy sources to reach 100%? Makes the analysis inaccurate, as we don’t know the picture of what’s actually being compared in the link you posted.

        • Ged

          I found this http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0945.pdf which is for 2010. If we take the coal generation versus absolute total, coal comes out at ~45%. So it’s possible coal has fallen to 32% this year, especially with Nuclear alone making up 20%. Wish I could find that solid data for 2012 though.

    • K

      Would you consider buying a new type of tablet or laptop computer if it were powered with….. an array of LR44 button cells ? And would you buy it if its price were just 25% of the version with rechargeable Li-ion batteries ?

  • s

    I find this very interesting: Their analysis showed that the Ecat probably can’t beat coal in energy efficiency right now. So coal, which makes around 40% to 50% of USA electricity, is still possibly better than the Ecat despite all the hype. Does anyone besides me find this very disappointing?

    • Methusela

      I don’t find it disappointing! It’s a ‘new’ source of energy that needs to be understood. When it’s understood it can be engineered to be better.

      What’s disappointing about that?

      • daniel maris

        No, I don’t find it disappointing. People get carried away too quickly.

      • s

        I’m sure their analysis took into account the fact that it has been stated that the Ecat COP has possibly been stated to be fixed at 6. If the analysis assumes COP fixed at 6, I don’t see where the improvements could come from.

        • Ged

          In self sustained mode, the COP would no longer mean anything (infinite). Not sure how that would complicate out calculations; kinda breaks it down just to raw material costs. Also depends on how long that mode can be sustained.

          • s

            As far as I can tell, the COP of 6 includes self-sustain mode. The Ecat does not run forever in self sustain mode.

            • Ged

              That’s how it’s been looking so far. The COP is an average of self sustained and driven modes.

              But there’s your answer, incidentally. What can be improved? The length of self sustained mode versus driven mode; lowering the energy of driven mode. Both of those would greatly increase the effectiveness of the E-cat.

            • s

              Rossi has stated for awhile that the Ecat COP is 6. People have asked multiple times if the Ecat COP will be over 6 and the response seems to always be that the COP is 6. So, you must use COP of 6 in energy calculations involving the Ecat. If possible calculations using a COP of 6 show the Ecat potentially can’t beat coal and nat gas in terms of cost then, I’m sorry, but you might have to accept that, whether you like it or not.

            • Ged

              You said you didn’t see where improvements could be made. I just showed where obvious improvements could be made. Nothing is preventing those improvements.

              The COP = 6 thing is for marketing, as has also been stated many times. That’s the only COP that is going to be guaranteed when you make a purchase. Nor do we see any calculations about what that means price wise versus coal/natgas. We have to crunch that ourselves, if COP’s are applicable to burning coal and gas?

              No idea about the COP of the 600 C stuff, or the 1 MW retrofit plants.

      • Andre Blum

        besides, coal has some disadvantages. or so I have heard.

    • Don Witcher

      Not at all. The one MW low temp ecat and home ecat can replace high cost heating oil in a lot of markets. That will probably absorb most of the ecat production for years. During that period the ecat will probably evolve to produce cheaper energy.
      Also that cost of coal quoted does not take into account carbon taxes which are probably inevitable.

    • CarmenElectra

      No, You will be really disappointed when the whole e-cat hype turns out to be a scam. I mean: come on! A new E-cat demo report? WTF do we need that for? Scientific proof is what I want to see, nothing less.

      • Ged

        The report was from a long time ago and we’re just now noticing it. It isn’t new in that sense.

      • GreenWin

        Ah Carmen, nice choice of name. HERE is a definitive answer from two PhDs, – Dr. Storms retired from Los Alamos National Lab and interestingly Dr. Grimshaw, an oil & gas geologist with years of work for petroleum. He is also credentialed in Public Policy and has written on Emerging Energy Technologies.

        http://fusiontorch.com/uploads/StormsJudgingValidityOfFleischmannPonsEffect2009.pdf

      • Chris

        If you want to see scientific proof, then be constructive instead of insolent. Support those who are calling for more funding into LENR research, in consideration of the many results over the past couple decades.

        http://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=177379

    • Ged

      Coal has been around for a long time, and there is not a single energy technology that beats it cost wise yet. Natural gas may do so soon, though, due to all the clean coal mandates.

      • http://extropolitca.blogspot.com Mirco

        Nuclear power is cheaper than coal, when it is not under political pressure.

        • Ged

          Very true. So much of our energy is vastly more expensive than it would be if politics weren’t so heavy handed. Some of it is justified, some of it is not.

    • Omega Z

      Reread the info…

      It was based on Zero COP factor. In which case it is figured on Electrical rates that have costs included other then the cost of coal. So technically it wouldn’t be competitive with Coal costs.

      Kind of like hot water directly from burning Coal verses an Electric water heater would be cheaper.

      They apparently didn’t have the COP data to state otherwise in these tests. As an investor they would base it on the Data at hand, even knowing a COP6 would change everything. You have an incomplete picture here.

      Don’t know why they didn’t have that data, Unless this statement was made prior to there receiving it. Like before they had seen this data/ in mid tests.

  • Robert

    Has anyone seen a report on the ICCF? Didn’t that start yesterday? Just wondered if anyone was covering that.

    • barty

      It starts in august 😉

    • Ged

      I think you’re thinking of that NY energy convention that’s been going on since Monday. There was supposed to be a talk today by Brian Ahern on his palladium-deuterium energy generator work (that Vibronic company).

  • AB

    Stefano Concezzi’s slides are now available:

    http://www.22passi.it/downloads/eu_brussels_june_20_2012_concezzi.pdf

    • Ged

      Really cool that NI confirmed Dr. Kim’s ELTB results. Also interesting how NI is involved in spintronic/quantum computing, and applying such to the LENR research field. These slides are a gold mine of interesting research tidbits.

  • Ivan Mohorovicic

    Stefano Concezzi’s (National Instruments) slides from his latest presentation in Rome:

    http://www.22passi.it/downloads/eu_brussels_june_20_2012_concezzi.pdf

    Source: 22passi

    http://22passi.blogspot.it/2012/07/e-ce-chi-paragona-la-ricerca-sulla_18.html

  • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

    What a shame the visitors didn’t just ask to disconnect the input leads on the self sustaining demo. Playing devil’s advocate for a moment, I have a number of duff test meters that would fail to show anything if I stuck them in the mains.

    The original 1MW unit was beginning to look a bit ‘Heath Robinson’ at that time, with its jumble of pumps, pipes and expansion vessels tacked onto the outside. If that was January-ish, the extra units are still on the roof, which presumably means that they were still having problems with the output at that time. I hope Roger Green’s license covers him for the new HT modules, which I imagine will replace the original type for multi-megawatt units. The original unit is probably now only good for dismantling to provide experimental test-beds, unless the modules can be retro-fitted with the new type of core.

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      Admin, I think your ‘marked for moderation’ filter may be getting a little hypersensitive!

      • admin

        Maybe so, George — trying to get a good balance between keeping the site free from abuse, and keep the conversation flowing. Still adjusting the scales.

  • http://deadstickarizona-zedshort.blogspot.com/ Zedshort

    This amounts to hear-say. I do hope it is for real and look forward to future and more sustaining events. I’m surprised by how cheap an exclusive license is. I was assuming it would be in the range of tens of millions. If Rossi does this ten times over he has 1.5 million to work with which is not small but not really substantial wrt paying for basic research.

    • daniel maris

      I guess it’s a trade off between licence fee and royalty fee – just my guess.

    • Ged

      It isn’t hearsay. You can read the actual report with all the pictures inbedded. Including photos of the people (some scientists from India were there too, interestingly enough), the retrofitted 1 MW plant, and so forth. A lot of new material, all photographically documented (including the ammeter and data logger).

      Moreover, Roger Green’s analysis about the energy competitiveness of what he saw is realistic. He is/was actually analyzing the situation and doing a cost/benefit analysis.

      • Omega Z

        A close look at the article indicates they didn’t take the COP into account when this was stated.

  • dsarin

    I want to be self sufficient! great news. i love it . bravo! good good good
    God is good!

  • dsarin

    I want to be self sufficient! great news. i love it . bravo! good good good
    good is good!

  • Pete

    Wait… They were allowed to see a self-sustained demo but haven’t done any measurements by themselves and payed $150,000. Awesome! Need to open a LENR shop myself and start selling licenses too asap.

    Anyone interested to see my N-Cat, get a license for just $120,000?

    • Allen McCloud

      Let us know how that goes.

    • Victor Victory

      @Pete…Please open your shop but make sure you will have something to show otherwise the law suits will follow!! If these guys have paid $150,000 and were happy with the result and didn’t sue Rossi or his company asking for their money back then it means it’s real! Capisci?

      • daniel maris

        Well the issue is: has it been delivered. That’s the clincher of course!

        At least we are now getting something that passes for news.

        • Ged

          The retrofit of the 1 MW plant is what really interested me. Went from 52 units to 106, with some now sitting on the roof of the container. That would definitely allow the plant to truly deliver its 1 MW rating.

          Wish we knew how things have developed since then.

          • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

            I think the extra units were on the roof for the ‘1MW’ demo in October, and the assembly appears to have struggled to sustain 500kW even then. As I understand things from the various snippets Rossi has posted, the seals were replaced to fix leakage, and the container was hauled away. I don’t remember the expansion vessels on the outside, so they must have been a part of some mod too.

            This Mk1 technology seems always to have been rather unreliable. I hope Rossi has ‘fixed it’ for the home heaters that are supposed to be coming shortly, but the HT version must make it more or less obsolete I think.

            • Ged

              Looking at the videos, it seems that may be the case. Not sure what William and Roger mean on the first page of their report about units now being on the roof versus the old design (and going up from 52 to 106 active units).

    • daniel maris

      You’re happy to risk several years, maybe 15, in a federal or state prison in the USA? Well you sound pretty desperate. A lot more desperate than Rossi has ever sounded to me.

    • Omega Z

      @Pete

      This is just a license to sell.

      You have Skin in the game. Your serious about Intent & will abide by the rules & follow thru.
      No different then any other license or franchise fee. It’s not about the amount. It’s having something at risk.

      These Funds are held in escrow to be released to Rossi/Leonardo when a working product is delivered to the Licensee. I would imagine that there is a time frame in the agreement at which time these funds will be returned to the Licensee if Rossi should happen not to provide a product.

      Once a working proven product is delivered, These funds belong to Rossi/Leonardo. It then falls on the Licensee to build market or sub-License the product or both. If you fail to follow thru, you forfeit you money plus your License. This is standard practice in business.

  • Barry

    Impressive!

    • hydthenickel

      Ok best answer. Who cares about the “science” behind any of these claims.
      Can anyone deliver the goods?
      Has anyone ever ever delivered on the promise of cold fusion LENR on real cost effective basis? In other words MONEY out is greater than MONEY in?
      Rossi and his Ecat so far HAS NOT delivered the goods.
      No real customer has ever gotten their hands on one.
      What is to make of that?
      That is the question. Is it a scam?
      I think that the answer to that will be for each person to judge. How many years are you going to wait before a Rossi Ecat is sold not only to a “real customer” but to more than one “real” customers?
      So far no goods have been delivered.
      My guess is some people will call it a scam 6 months from now, some a year, some two years etc.
      Who cares about MIT, National Instruments etc. Where is the working, produced and sold Ecat?
      That is why I say my “best answer” IS NOT TO LISTEN TO PROMISES BUT WAIT FOR THE REAL DEAL!
      As long as the Rossi Ecat remains an unfulfilled promise speculation as to its relevance, effectivity and conspiracy theories will thrive.
      Deliver the goods Mr Rossi!

      • Barry

        Also impressive!