Why LENR Will Be Embraced

I have noticed that there seems to be a slight uptick in interest in LENR recently — probably due to some of the reports that have been coming out lately from various conferences and publications where the topic is being taken quite seriously by certain people in business and academic circles.  When you have serious players such as National Instruments getting deeply involved in the emerging field of LENR it is enough to make people who are acqainted sit up and take notice.

If you study the early days of many important technologies you will find that their beginnings started with a few pioneers who were typically unusual in their interests and work; they wanted to explore areas that were yet untouched. Inventors by their nature are going to be operating in the fringes of their disciplines since they try to build things and do things that have never been done before. To me it makes sense that they and their work will not be readily accepted by their professional peers, or the public at large. They may even be looked on as unusual or even crazy because they attempt to do things that are impossible — and as we know, the impossible can’t be done!

There comes a time, however, in the development of a new technology when people who are paying attention, and are not immediately dismissive, start to realize that just maybe, there may be something to this invention after all. At some moment a tipping point is reached, and this is the time when smart,  ambitious and creative people start to see the potential of a new technology, and floodgates begin to open. Many of us have lived through technological revolutions.

I remember well the time in 1991 that I first became aware of the Internet. I was at a conference at a university and various professionals were talking about Internet applications. I admit that at the time I was not particularly impressed. Really, what use to me was the ability to be able to send code from one computer to another? But within only a few years the world of information dissemination and communications had become radically changed. Why did that revolution happen? Because people began to see the vast potential for useful Internet-based applications and began to create hardware and software products. Along with the inventors and developers came the entrepreneurs and financiers who saw potential for commercial success. Internet service providers sprung up all over the world and people were able to use personal computers (another revolutionary technology) to get on the Internet. Now we have billions of people operating even more billions of devices to do a huge variety of tasks and activities online.

I believe the same thing that has happened with technologies such as electricity, automotive transportation, telephony, computing, and other major inventions will happen in the field of LENR. Yes, I am sure there will be some resistance from entrenched interests, but even these interests will begin to realize that are opportunities awaiting them if they adjust to the new realities of a technology that will allow for the production of far cheaper and cleaner energy than is now available.

I believe we are at the very early stages of something very significant. A technology that has been the focus of a very few dedicated pioneers is beginning to come out of the wilderness. It’s impossible to say exactly how it will emerge, and where it will all lead, but I think LENR will be embraced in basically the same way as many earlier technologies that have come make up the infrastructure of modern civilization.

  • dragon

    On PESN, Hank Mills is writing about the upcoming report from Rossi:


    “Perhaps the best piece of evidence yet will be the report coming out soon of an extended test of around twenty high temperature (over 600 Celsius) E-Cat modules. This test is being conducted for Andrea Rossi’s MILITARY CUSTOMER, under the instruction of the agent of the customer. In a matter of weeks, the test results should provide undeniable evidence of the reality of the E-Cat, and the ability of the technology to work at high temperatures in a totally stable manner.”

    If the customer is Military (probably US Military) is it correct to assume that when the Report will be release by Rossi, it will have UNKOWN on the third party signature? And if this report will come from Rossi only, with no back up from a trustworthy third party entity, can it be considered just another “Rossi says”?
    If it is just a “Rossi says”, that is a not good enough for us, because he cannot validate his own work and he must let the third party speak for themselves. Or at least let us know who is the Third Party involved. It is only fair to us.
    If not, what will be the value of such a report?

    Also, Andrea Rossi is looking more and more like an asset for US Military and less and less a civilian entity. That can translate in him being hijacked to the dark side.

    • Lu

      What’s important is the identity and independence of the 3rd party (or parties) doing the testing and the openness of the testers, procedures, and results. I could understand if the customer remains anonymous.

      So I expect that the third party will (or should) be a well-known, independent, and accessible entity while the customer may chose to remain anonymous (at some level). A situation like the supposed NATO engineer who administered Rossi’s last test and then disappeared off the face of the Earth will not do. Who knows if the test(s) are definitive we may actually find out the identity of the customer as well because I believe some of this anonymity is because of fear of being associated with a scam, i.e., politics.

      I’m not sure where Hank Mills has gotten the notion that it is the military customer that has commissioned the test. I wouldn’t be surprised either.

      However, I actually think that having the military or some other customer like them commissioning an E-Cat is a good thing. They are able to bypass all the rules and regulations put into place for our civil society in general since their application is usually limited and investigatory. I don’t view the military as potentially hostile to a new energy sources such as the E-Cat especially since they realize how dependent the US (or other parts of the World) is on foreign sources of energy and how much of a security issue that is.

      • dragon

        If the customer is indeed the US Military, it remains to be seen how “open” they will be to share with civil society their new disruptive energy. I bet that the opposite will happen and Andrea Rossi and his LENR devices will enter in black program (under pain of death if necessary) just like what happened with Tesla. It already feels like Rossi is almost black program. And when they think they would not need him, they will feed him some drugs to mess up his mind or “polonium” to be sure of the desired effect.

        Who do you think it is the military complex? You’re Neighborhood charitable foundation?
        At the top they are just cruel tugs, just like the military cartel that is now putting Mexico in the dustbin of history. If you think that “The People” is controlling this Military Complex, think again.

        Better for Rossi to come clean and share his invention with the public before he will receive “an offer he cannot refuse” from the military complex.

        • Lu

          In terms of energy there is nothing really new or disruptive about the E-Cat per say. It’s just another source of low to high heat from another source of cheap and abundant fuel. It’s benefit, and not insignificantly, is primarily economic and environmental. Of course so much so that it has huge implications on politics and other areas but it’s not like the military now has a new secret weapon at their disposal.

          The people in the military complex ARE your neighbors who are in the military, work for the companies that support the military, etc. There is no us versus them–we are them. Of course they do try to perpetuate themselves and expand their business but that’s human nature.

    • dfnj
    • Ivan_otho

      Gentlemen, There is no a single piece of evidence the e-cat works, LENR does have a lot of evidence, but is a field in pregnancy no even born yet.
      The ecat is a dream, beutiful dream. but until Mr Rossi gives hard evidence of the ecat, ecat is only a lucrative (for rossy) toy in the science fiction realm!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • john p.

    The word to describe the introduction of LENR products to the public is… Delayed. Govt. red tape and Intnatl. legal maneuvers will probably hold things up for quite a while, years in fact. There will probably be three to four companies that try to market LENR products (Mr. Rossi’s included)at about the same time. If you thought the OJ trial was slightly extended,just wait for these. This will give Big Oil and TPTB the time they need to adjust. This last delay will be no problem for the Chinese however, they will know exactly what to do.

  • N810

    Hmmmm maybe he should rename it to the T-cat..?

    • Ged

      It can make Earl Grey, hot?

  • Casey

    Andrea Rossi
    “http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=619&cpage=2” \l “comment-234308”
    Dear Larry,
    I am devastated: the video you gave the link of really discloses my secret!
    No Regards,


  • vbasic

    The steel industry is so desperate to move from high cost fossil fuels, they are willing to use small modular nuclear reactors, including Thorium. This SmartPlanet article shows the possibilities and their desperation. I then imagine LENR instead of risky fission supplying their needs.

    • Omega Z


      E-cats can’t produce high enough temps for the job.

      However, They could produce Electricity to run both themselves & electric elements for the steel processing at high temps.

  • GreenWin

    Appropriate to this discussion – a reporter named Bill Price writing for a “men’s perspective” magazine SPEARHEAD introduces LENR to a new audience:


    The comments are interesting in the general level of surprise. One comment references Jeff Kooistra, freelance physicist and author. Kooistra has an interesting perspective in a piece for Infinite Energy Magazine titled “Why All the Static?”

    Fortunately, history shows that the old view dies out and the new takes its place as experimental evidence accumulates and only the theories from the new paradigm can fit the anomalous pieces together. So for you, cold fusion researcher, take heart. Keep experimenting and keep exchanging information. But keep the castle doors locked until those torches go out and those pitchforks come down. They always do.”


  • CIHT fan

    If anyone here is interested in building a cold fusion devise based on the Athanor device, then I am willing to buy material for you for $500.
    You owe me nothing in return, but you will have to post your findings and progress on this forum.

    • dfnj

      Check out this site and this posting:


      What the heck is this? It is nothing but a way to feed the search engines. Who benefits from it?

    • dfnj

      If I had a sample device I know a guy in China who will make Athanor device kit really cheap.

    • Ged

      Has anyone done an analysis on exactly how much the material will cost based on country location? A lot of it may have to be specialty/custom made.

      • CIHT fan

        Anyone, who does analysis on building the device and comes up with a software prototype, will get $200 dollars from me, and again, you owe me nothing. You need to have a paypal account to get the money.

    • Sanjeev

      CIHT fan, thanks for coming forward with this generous offer. I hope someone will take it, but be careful to select a competent and serious person.

      I had tried in past to encourage the free energy community to stop playing with magnets for a while and check out the real thing, i.e. LENR and posted the Athanor details. No one took interest….

      Probably money is not a big problem in its replication, something else is needed- like clear step by step instructions, data , measurements etc.

  • GreenWin

    It certainly looks like a wave of new recruits are coming aboard. The article in the petroleum journal will awaken thousands of energy industry people who may have (gratefully) dismissed cold fusion years ago. What’s very interesting is the opinion that LENR may not damage petroleum at all. Provided they can replace lost fuel sales with chemical feedstock applications.

    One thing is certain. A ubiquitous, low cost source of electricity will drive a global economic boom. As once-poverty stricken nations start growing food and building new housing, demand for consumer products will rise rapidly. Many of these product require petroleum based materials. So, even as the internal combustion engine is replaced with electric drives, the demand for synthetics and hydrocarbon-based plastics, fertilizers, pharma, lubricants, etc. will rise.

    And if Exxon, Shell, Amoco, etc. invest in LENR, they can replace gas pumps with 60kW 400vDC quick-charge pedestals for electric vehicles.

    Dr. Edmund Storms has updated his paper to be given shortly at the NPA, “What is Cold Fusion and Why Should You Care? (2012 John Chappell Memorial Paper)” – he concludes this way:

    “The phenomenon called cold fusion has been demonstrated to cause initiation of a variety of nuclear reactions, occasionally at rates able to produce commercial grade energy. The process is
    cheaper, easier to produce, freer of radioactive products, and likely to be more useful than the conventional source of fusion power called hot fusion.[65] Once the common myth that claims
    the phenomenon is false has been changed and suitable funding levels can be provided, mankind may acquire an ideal energy source, as the future requires. In the process, society needs to understand and correct the flaws that permitted such a distortion of the evaluation process used by various scientists and governments.”

    • daniel maris

      I am not convinced about the chemical feedstock argument. I think if energy is cheap enough a lot of alternative scenarios become possible e.g. polytunnel agriculture to replace a lot of artificial fertiliser and as a transmutation technology; extraction of hydrogen and carbon from water and air etc.

  • Distributed Intelligence

    Let’s not make the error of trying to make money from disruptive technologies. Their introduction is act of revolution against powerful criminal syndicates, not a profit making venture. Let’s make sure we understand the reality in which we are operating and act appropriately.

    Any attempt to follow the 20th century commercial models to introduce this technology will result in its suppression. This technology must be proliferated in a manner that circumvents distribution systems. Only a fool will think to make himself rich from a monopoly of this technology. He will only destroy himself and cause this extremely important technology to fall into the hands of the enemies of human liberty.

    I’ve enjoyed watching all of us develop the awareness of what this technology will do to our world. I’ve also feared the inevitable reaction of our enemies once they too are aware. Let’s not make it so easy for them to harm this endeavor.

    Whatever the outcome of these efforts to develop an LENR product, we must all be prepared to get them quickly once available. If we can’t buy them in a completed assembly, we must be ready to build them ourselves and should collaborate to do so.

    Keep awake and watchful on this subject if you value your liberty!

    • Kim

      Be prepared to build ourselves.

      What a nice article. Perfect

      Yes they will try to control and suppress

      Have no doubt.

      Look what their doing with the UL Certification

      We have to take the high ground ourselves.

      Once we show that we can build our own, then the system
      will crack.


    • dragon

      Like I said before… sometimes, greed is so powerful. Nobody I know in LENR is even remotely a Nicola Tesla type inventor. More like Edison type who was greedy and wanted monopoly on his inventions (like some persons I know). Edison was a buddy of JP Morgan and in the end they both worked together to destroy Tesla.

      So until somebody is really open regarding his invention or his luck (because that is what it is in LENR) we (the people) are divided and have no chance against our oppressors regarding this old (beginning of 20 century) disruptive technology.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Very interesting, I am 72 we built our own radios, steam engines, computers, aircraft, why not e-cats!

    • spacegoat

      “Only a fool will think to make himself rich from a monopoly of this technology. He will only destroy himself and cause this extremely important technology to fall into the hands of the enemies of human liberty.”

      Secondly, if these fools continue to delay liberating this knowledge, then it is possble (and likely) that their get super-rich plans will be thwarted by nuclear war. Three facts:
      -War with Iran is now very likely (UN leader declared final talks a failure)
      -The US allows itself first use of nuclear weapons. The US forces are sitting ducks in the Gulf.
      -It is very likely that tactical nukes will lead to regional nukes.

      Demonstrating a new commercial energy source to the Iranians would halt this escalation.

      • Distributed Intelligence

        I think most of us are aware of the disruptions to existing technology LENR will cause, but not many have considered the dimension of disruption in terms of energy availability to individuals.

        We understand the energy density of LENR is 1000’s of times more than what can be produced from petroleum, which until now was the only portable energy source available to us.

        We define our current state of the art in portable power (That you and I can feasible acquire, anyway) to be a Tesla Roadster with about 53 KWh of power available from lithium ion technology. To put this in perspective, this is enough to drive 200 or so miles, or power a small plasma cutter and a handful of machine tools for a few hours.

        A similarly scaled LENR generator mounted in a vehicle might enable a power generation capacity a full magnitude above what is achievable with lithium ion cells, and run continuously.

        This would allow you to drive across continents without refueling, or power an entire fabrication center. Individuals and small groups could field directed energy devices that have until now been only sci-fi dreams due to their power consumption, all capable of operating continuously.

        Imagine a pulsed megawatt class laser array made from UV or IR diodes at a price any middle class person could afford. This is the the economy of power LENR will enable. Directed energy is the end of the projectile era, period. You can’t deliver fragile payloads (or fly through, for that matter) in the face of directed energy densities this new era will bring us. Vehicle armor can’t withstand these energy densities, and they can operate in CW.

        Because of this, we shouldn’t worry about wars being caused to suppress LENR, it’s the potential of LENR to power weapons capable of overthrowing the world’s empires. Just as gunpowder destroyed the ancient world order, LENR will destroy the new one as humankind jumps to the next energy magnitude.

  • dfnj

    I find the idea of the force created by the metal lattice contracting, as it releases heat, could be a way to overcome the coulomb barrier resulting in LENRs or fusion very intriguing.

    I am very encouraged by Hagelstein’s recent comments at William and Mary seminar that his current theoretical model is now complete. I can’t wait to read his paper.

  • CIHT fan

    Few weeks, some school kids of Italy showed cold fusion device called Athanor.
    Why is no one able to replicate it when all the specs are out?

    • dragon

      I don’t know of anybody that tried and was not able to replicate Athanor cell. Do you?

    • Ged

      Like I posted elsewhere, do you know who has tried? I would love to see someone do so.

      • Italo R.

        Here there is something and some pictures:

        • Ged

          Thanks for the link. Sadly google translate only does a passable job.

    • dragon

      The last info on this is from this blog/forum:


      Email from Ugo Abundo to Daniele Passerini.

      “by: Hugh Abundo
      a: Daniele Passerini (22passi) to: Daniele Passerini (22passi)
      cc: [omitted], Francesco Celani, Domenico Cirillo, [YYY]
      data: 24 giugno 2012 20:33 Date: June 24, 2012 20:33
      oggetto: Re: ipotesi Abundo Subject: Re: hypothesis Abundo

      We will have something to say well, I hope, we are always confronted propositivamente, we now have the opportunity to make known officially a collective point of view.

      A group is building in Ostia a copy of the reactor to replicate the tests
      – [ZZZ] has already built a replica and is beginning the tests
      – At [omitted] of Rome, Faculty of [omitted], we have made ​​arrangements to conduct their responses and measures to
      – [XXX] is a volcano, is building a device that turns the problem of measuring the yields and will probably rise because it allows to tune the behavior of the phenomenon on the exact needs of the plasma
      – And finally we have prepared our laboratory almost “post-Pirelli”, but in the meantime we have been working with the firm because, in addition to having built two reactors calibration (one to the other cathode resistor and carbon), we with a specific group of competent laboratory will be available soon, “unleash hell”.
      In a few days I will provide to provide a framework document to Daniel of these activities: plans, photos etc..

      Many warm greetings to all.
      C. Hugh Abundo & C.”

      So, they are preparing something with some yet unkown company and other labs in order to “unleash hell”. Sounds promissing.

      • Andrew Macleod

        I don’t know…. “unleashing hell” doesn’t sound promising to me, sound more like terrorist activity.

        • dragon

          I think you got lost on energy threads from whatever you were before. 🙂
          Here, “unleash hell” is more about showing positive results to the scientific community.

    • AB

      > Why is no one able to replicate it when all the specs are out?

      The replication efforts are underway. I don’t think you appreciate the effort and precision required for this type of work. It takes time.

  • georgehants

    When science decides they are going to reconstruct one of the pyramids using copper tools and only ancient methods we may respect their opinions of how they where built.

    Moving 4,000 tons using only the strength of humans and animals: Historians accompany the castle construction in Friesach
    Credit AlphaGallileo
    Entirely in keeping with medieval construction methods, a castle is being erected in the Austrian town of Friesach. The project, which is scheduled to last 30 years, is being accompanied by a number of historians. On July 5th, the corner stone for the visitors’ centre will be laid.
    Medieval castles are regarded as buildings of particular stability: Even after 1,000 years, many have successfully withstood the ravages of time. Making the most of a construction site, where a castle is being constructed using medieval methods, historians are critically examining the existing knowledge about tools and materials, in an effort to gain new insights. “For example, a female expert in the history of construction is currently conducting research in Friesach in order to discover the secret of the medieval mortar mixture”, Johannes Grabmayer, project leader at the Department of History at the Alpen-Adria-Universität explains. An understanding of this “perfect mortar” could also be of interest to today’s manufacturers of construction equipment and materials.
    The project adheres to strict specifications: “Upon passing through the gateway, one enters an authentic medieval construction site. Using only the strength of humans and animals, trees have been felled and the necessary infrastructure for the construction of the castle has been established. Looking ahead, 4,000 tons of stone need to be shifted. A number of site huts have already been completed”, Grabmayer explains further.
    In a first step, the castle keep will be built. Then, a curtain wall, living quarters, a chapel and a variety of outbuildings will follow. As was the case during the Middle Ages, the pace of progress will depend upon the weather, among other factors.
    It is hoped that the corner stone ceremony for the visitors’ centre will attract an even greater number of visitors to the castle construction site. Grabmayer elaborates: “We offer four guided tours through the site every day, and we are developing infrastructure that is designed specifically for our visitors”. The project is based on a unique cooperation combining sustainable tourism and science. A number of research streams are closely linked to the castle construction project.

    • Omega Z


      Would be so cool if someone invented a Time Machine or Time Viewer at the very least.

      We could see how things were really done. We could also see history rather then read someone else’s interpretation.

      We’d probably find that most speculations were way off. And History very twisted.

      We may find that we had some extraterrestrial help or possible we were highly advanced in the past before nearly wiping ourselves out & starting over.

      They have found cities hundreds of feet below on Ocean floors that appear to be more advanced then the Egyptians & much Older. Don’t tell the Egyptians. They get upset if you discredit their view as the beginning of society.

  • andreiko

    Ik denk dat we zo snel als mogelijk stuwmeren moeten aanleggen met pijpleidingen naar de droogtegebieden.

    a)Omdat de plaatselijke bevolking in de droogtegebieden een overvloed aan voedsel kan gaan telen met positieve gevolgen zoals werkgelegenheid,export van voedsel etcetera….

    b)De significante afkoeling, door het groen maken van deze gebieden zal een eventuele zeespiegelstijging tegengaan.

    *Door CO2 opslag.
    *Door opslag van water in de bergen en de droge
    c)LENR zal zorgen dat er veel omzettingen in de metaal sector
    zullen plaatsvinden zoals recycling en vrijmaking van ijzer,koper,aluminium etcetera.

    d)De werkgelegenheid zal wereldwijd een enorme impuls ondergaan.

    Door het goedkoper worden van energie dankzij LENR lijkt het voorgaande geen utopie.

    • jacob

      That could well be the specialty for the dutch,anything to do with the water,to bring water to the deserts , the possibilities are end less,to grow more food in even northern climates ,even in the North West Territories and Greenland and Labrador,or under ground ,in basements just about any where,for a food abundance for our earth family, and trade in the guns for food.

    • dfnj

      Die Politiker sind nicht etwa Hilfe für die Armen betroffen. Ich denke, die Kräfte, die den Status quo halten wollen, sind nicht daran interessiert, ihren Mitmenschen zu helfen. Die Meister denken, der Rest von uns sind nicht verdient.

      • jacob

        dave,that is exactly right, why would they care about us,we are just a necessary means to buy their crap to make them wealthy,they,die Kraefte sind ganz zufaellig glueklich geworden,und wir haben es nich herausgefunden,was uns angetan wurde,wir haben nichts verstehen koennen,und wir haben es nicht geglaubt,und nun ist alles unverstehbar for us.

        most people do not know what to believe anymore,they are being told conflicting stories.

        thanks dave

    • JWR

      I wonder why you continue to write in Dutch!
      Besides why would you like to store CO2?
      CO2 is not the reason of climate variations. CO2 is food for plants.Produce as much as possible and let it free in the atmosphere.
      And because of cheap electricity, why store water in mountains around the deserts.
      Avoid that rain is draining away and store the water underground.

      • Andreiko

        Repliceer mij niet verkeerd, dank u.

        • edog

          Thanks for excluding me in your thoughts and conversation… Andreiko… do you have a lot of chinese readers?

  • Karl

    Like many I heard and was intrigued by the F&P Cold Fusion 1989 news release. After it was debunked and silenced for whether reason I noticed 20 years afterwards thanks to Mats Lewan and his article series in http://www.nyteknik.se about Rossi and his E-Cat during 2011.

    With a background as an innovator and entrepreneur, though, not precisely in the energy sector, I have a lifelong interest in renewable energy solutions. I found that the behaviour of Rossi was not particularly odd for an innovator and the demonstrations perhaps not convincing to 100 % but still. Can a fraudster supported by several reputable scientists, in Italy and Sweden that were convinced he had something be ignored?

    I started to take part in quite a fiercely debate on the Swedish paper with a curious approach let’s wait and see before judgement. It quickly appeared that there quite a community that tried to make a joke of Cold Fusion and Rossi in particular. For me it clearly seemed to be a loudly and arguable group that had a goal to continue to put the label of junk science on the field. We have seen a similar on multiple international sites.

    There are too many reputable old and experience scientists that do not seem to have any particular too loose and not anything particular to gain other than relieve the truth and they are convinced and can also prove it. E. Storms and his interest in this sector after his pension is a good example and several others could be named. By reading scientific papers from such people, without being directly involved in any of the projects, I find the proof that of anomalous must be taken for real by now and in addition that we must take Rossi et al very serious. Although I think human been will and the world environment will gain a lot for the use of virtually limited less clean energy, I believe we still to many shortcomings preventing us of creating a heaven on earth.

    • I am finding the behavior of the people debating this issue to as interesting at this time as the phenomena itself.

      • psi

        I agree.And, like Karl I do not find Rossi’s actions or words at all inconsistent with the idea that he has essentially done more or less exactly what he claims. Yes, his demonstrations fall short of being entirely convincing to determined skeptics, but they have also revealed a great deal and convinced many — including, or so it would appear, NI and other major players — that he has the goods to deliver.

        • dfnj

          I am having a hard time with your way of thinking. Having a retired “engineer” be your claim as your proof and validation is a little weak for me. To claim the “customer” was satisfied, made payment, and took delivery is suspect without documentation. Someone even posted the shipping container with the 1MW E-Cat demonstrated last October never moved from its location. And just because NI gives you a free copy of Lab View doesn’t mean they are a major player supporting the research. The NI connection is pretty weak as far as I am concerned.

          Now before you Rossi cultists attack me please understand my questions have nothing to do with Rossi, Italians, or Italy. I would have the same questions and skepticism with anyone making extraordinary claims.

          My problem with Rossi is many people have shown LENR experiments having excess heat. Has anyone claimed unequivocal they can control the process by stopping, starting, and repeatability perfectly? It seems to me when you criticise Rossi the cultists think you are criticising the existence of excess heat. The real criticism is with Rossi claiming he can control the process. Just show a video of turning it on and off.

          If it takes an indeterminate time to get started or the device works only 9 out of 10 times is it going to be a commercial success?

          • Barry

            Dave, why are you posting similar comments under a new name?

          • psi

            Then I suggest you wait and revisit the question in six weeks and see if you still have the same difficulty.

            Yours Sincerely,

            A Rossi Cultist (and damned proud of it)

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            I have no problem with skeptics like you, the ones that bother me are the super skeptics who deny LENR has been proven. I really have a problem with scientists who have been a traitor to the scientific method for their own professional and/or personal gain.

    • Barry

      Perhaps heaven is a place best approached from the innerworld, but in the earthly realm, thanks to CF there is more hope, freedom and equlity in the air.

      • psi

        I would add that one of the great things about LENR is its essentially non-ideological nature. By that I mean that idealists of very different political persuasions, from left to right, can get behind it, and see its potential transformative and beneficial implications. This is good for a world that is all too often divided into ideological camps with mutually exclusive visions of the path to a more humane world.

        • GreenWin

          Nicely put psi. Who would expect to see environmentalists, industrialists, and social scientists all sitting at one table in agreement?

        • Barry

          Second time I’ve said this today. “You are right on psi.”

          • psi

            Hey Barry, thanks. Your kind words are much appreciated.

  • enoughAlready

    Rossi will immediately become the worlds riches man if he were to actually show the thing to the world WITH verifiable independent proof.

    To get this thing going 1,000 engineers(including myself) would work on contengency basis for a 1/1000% each of the profits if there is some technical problem which Rossi needs help solving. He knows this yet he does nothing.

    If he had viable proof he could go to any large bank or investment group and borrow $1B tomorrow…..yet he provides no proof.

    Yet this project keeps slow rolling, making promises and delivering virtually nothing concrete.

    If he were legitimate the best safty for him is to become very public….help, money, protection would surround him so much so that NO ONE(the big oil conspiracy)could take him out.

    So why is this SO SLOW to get out the door?
    1) either its total BS and he has nothing(fraud of the year)
    2) its functional but not in any long term economical fashion and he is trying to buy time until he figures it out.

    Either way its pretty obvious there is STILL a major hangup with either Rossi or the project.

    • Ryan

      First off, Rossi isn’t the only person or group working on LENR, not even close. Were you even passably aware of this fact you wouldn’t blithly be mentioning only Rossi in your statements to primarily disregard this area of research. Second, if you actually worked in engineering you’d know that many, many projects take years, sometimes decades, to reach fruition. The idea that something comes out, especially a new area of knowledge, and suddenly can be developed and put on the market is naive. Most of human history shows that developments have taken time, often a lot of time, and to expect results on your demand is not going to happen, at all, ever, get used to it. My suggestion to you is to read up on all the groups working on LENR and the organizations supporting this research instead of making prognostications on what you believe Rossi knows or doesn’t know.

    • jacob

      enoughAlready, Andrea Rossi has demonstrated and had his unit tested,and they do in fact produce 6 times more thermal BTU’s out,compared to the electrical BTU input,it has been proven and proven again,since that time Mr. Rossi has focused his energy on improving his E-cat and now he is building high temperature E-cat’s,that operate at 600 celsius and is running 20 of them for an extended period of time,and it is now possible to produce unlimited energy on planet earth,considering one barrel of nickel has the equal amount of energy that a giant supertanker full of oil,so enoughAlready if you or your family own stock in oil companies or in other energy stock,this may be a good time to sell them,before this news hits the TV any day now,any day now the news with Rossi’s longterm test results could hit the media like a Bomb,to send Oil stock’s tumbling and the price of crude oil has been dropping in the last few month,I believe due to insider information,COLD FUSION LENR is very real,it is more real than your current view of reality,please get up to speed ,and you seem to have missed the bus,but while you are waiting for the next bus,look into it a little more,I understand you are an engineer,well you were taught what they wanted you to know,and have a piece of paper to prove you are the man,there is much information you will have to read, which will help you understand this new type of LOW ENERGY NUCLEAR REACTION between nickel and hydrogen,and transmutes nickel into copper. GOOD LUCK with that.

    • Bigwilly

      Hi EnoughAlready,

      Your common sense and prudent questions into Rossi’s suspicious behavior will most likely be met with a blizzard of condemnation. We are supposed to take Rossi’s word and the evidence from his rickety tests as gospel.

      Sounds like we need to drink more Hank Mills koolaid. You take one sip then you extol Rossi as the savior of mankind and a purveyor of free energy.

      My thoughts:
      LENR is heating up and good things are coming with the advent of human focus and research. It has been slow going because of the F&P quagmire but I dont really care. I am just glad that it is being examined now by well funded entities.

      Rossi, DGT, Brillioun and the other “just wait till 2 months from now THEN! you will see” are pure blather. I have nothing against these entities personally and I sincerely wish them all the best.

      They are claiming to walk on water, (commercial ready LENR), without independent proof. I understand that indirect proof may be all that is need by some people but the scientific method relies on repeatability and reproducability as taught to us from 5 grad science on. I believe this is the simple reason that these guys are not being taken seriously by the entire world.

      You are very correct. Independent proof of E-Cat working = unlimited money, protection and support to fufill their mission whether that is profit or altruism.


      • psi

        Blather is as blather does. I see little point in encouraging someone who believes that “Rossi will immediately become the worlds riches man if…” anything. Sorry, that is not the way the world works. As Eng. Ryan indicates, establishing a new industrial revolution comes by sweat and inspiration. Nothing happens “immediately,” and those who utter such proclamations incur a burden of proof they can never meet.

        • GreenWin

          psi, some people insist that other people live life “their way.” This is the same island of skeps (using various pseudonyms) clinging to the strident demand that innovators bow to their time-table.

          • dfnj

            Nothing of the sort in terms of our “time-table”. I would hope Rossi would publish good data just to drive down the oil speculators. I assure you my motives are only selfish self-interests.

        • Bigwilly

          Hi PSI,

          Who is Eng. Ryan?


        • dfnj

          I would not be so bold to understand exactly how the world works.

          From a marketing perspective, Rossi is only hurting his brand image by not publishing data according to scientific standards.

          From a marketing perspective, Rossi would be much better served by keeping quiet about everything until he has something he can actually sell. Pre-announcing product is usually a bad idea. It just tells your competition your business plan and your current status.

          • freethinker

            Yes, normally you would be right, but remember ARs background and market he is intent of making his. Chances are that all bets and normallity are off…

            • psi

              I would have to agree. Those who accuse Rossi of being so self-damaging don’t seem to understand the clear implications of NI’s very public statements supporting Rossi’s claims. These are of course circumspect, but if Rossi’s claims are as undemonstrable as his critics claim, then NI is a bigger sucker than I, for one, think it is. Read the history and then formulate an opinion, but as Freethinker says, all bets on “normal” being a valid criterion here are off…by a few miles, one might add.

    • dfnj

      I think you bring up valid criticisms and I agree with you.

      I find the arguments and attacks against you from the cultists very weak and unconvincing. The stronger the cultists argue the weaker their position. The Japanese have a saying, “The first person to raise their voice in an argument loses.”

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      enoughAlready: Just how will Rossi, “immediately become the worlds riches man if he were to actually show the thing to the world WITH verifiable independent proof”? He is proceeding like a smart entrepreneur. No one is going to hand him a fortune if they can steal it from him, and that is exactly what has happened countless times to inventors like Rossi.

      • Omega Z


        Rossi will get rich, But what the skeptics don’t understand is that Rossi will only get a percentage. Probably a small percentage at that. The Investors will get the Lions Share. There will also be competitors cutting into that world market. That big pie gets cut into smaller slivers very fast. Although all considered, his share could still be many Billions after tax.

        What many of them probably have a problem with is they wont get any of the pie. Envy & Jealousy go hand in hand. Kind of like someone winning the Lottery. Many people have derogatory things to say about them.

  • I just watched a documentary on the transition from the bronze age to the iron age.

    Very interesting!

    Bronze was rare and manufacture of the axes and so forth was controlled by the elite – bronze became a currency.

    Iron was plentiful and any iron smith could reshape it.

    There was subsequently a cultural revolution as communities were not enslaved from the high price of importing bronze tools.

    The population boomed as communities were self sufficient for the first time.

    Cheap localized energy will have a similar effect.

    No enslavement from oil, banks and energy companies!

    The golden age of happiness?

    • daniel maris

      Remains to be seen. I think certainly governments have to take action to ensure that LENR is not monopolised by big corporations. The fact that it is a radioactive process may be seized upon as a way of controlling it.

      • RichyRoo

        Sadly the truth is that governments will take action to ENSURE that LENR is monopolised by big corporations. They will indeed use the word ‘nuclear’ as their cover story for the lumpen-stooge.

        • dragon

          All action has counteraction. If governments will try indefinitely to enslave the people trough energy dependence, in the end, the people will revoke them, one way or the other.

  • Robert Mockan

    LENR may take a form other than a Rossi water heater or steam boiler. The PlasmERG engine gas mixture study was published in Infinite Energy magazine many years ago, as progress on the Papp gas mixture never really stopped. The PlasmERG process may be based on some of the physics that also enables LENR to work.
    Although the present design is a piston engine, there is every reason to expect a turbine engine to be simpler to manufacture, lighter weight, and just as powerful, if not more. Also there is a real possibility of using the activated gas mixture in a rocket engine, enabling an automobile sized single stage to orbit personal space ship. ( And yes I know the comment has a large giggle factor. But I have studied the technology carefully, and have no reservations about making the comment). That kind of application is still a ways off for LENR designs using a metal lattice.

    • dsm2


      Very interesting comments re Noble gasses but, how could a turbine be designed that exploits the rapid & powerful expansion/contraction capability claimed in the PlasmERG (Papp) design.

      Papp showed twice (2nd time was from interference from a scientist there to observer) that his engines relied on the precise expansion of a small volume of Noble gases to a precise expansion & immediate contraction back to the original volume.

      The real challenge from the Papp engine was just how powerful that momentary & precise expansion could be. You will be well aware of the explosion Papp demonstrated to Navy people where he exploded a massive metal container using a few CCs of Noble gasses & his plasma excitation & triggering. His explosion ripped that metal container open like cheese.

      That explosion showed how dangerous Noble gas expansion can be & may explain why few have been all that excited about exploring it.

      What I am asking is how would Noble gas expansion be used to drive a turbine ?. Must admit I can’t begin to see how but am sure you have a good idea lurking there

      With great respect DSM

      • Robert Mockan

        It was actually the BLP Mills hypothesis describing the real electron orbit shell configuration of atomic hydrogen that helped explain the Papp noble gas mixture expansion and contraction. As is understood in conventional atomic theory there is a continuous flow of energy, to and from, Dirac space (otherwise referred to as the “aether”, or from Bearden what he calls “energy from the vacuum”) that uses the resonant space of every electron orbit shell to keep it stable. Energy is not manifested outside the orbit shell during hydrino formation unless the orbit shell contracts, as it can do for the single electron hydrogen atom when an external catalyst atom can absorb the non-radiative 27.2 electron volt energy difference between discreet orbit shell radii.. But whereas the Mills hypothesis talks about the hydrogen atom orbit shell radii contracting, providing energy external to the system as an ionized catalyst atom, in the noble gases the outer orbit shell is closed, meaning it is also resonant with Dirac space, but can be increased in radii by drawing energy from Dirac space. The increase in radii is not thermal expansion but a discreet, transitory, atom level expansion of the outer orbit shell radii of the noble gas atom, as it draws energy from Dirac space during the expansion, then returns it to Dirac space as it contracts. This is the explosion, implosion, effect noted in the Papp gas mixture. The process runs “cold” because the effect is not thermal expansion, but expansion at the atom level caused by the orbit shell enlarging to encompass a larger volume of space in the expanded condition. A noble gas plasma does partially form, but that is more a side effect of the process. But in most of the gas mixture atoms the outer orbit shell remains stable, and as long as it is then the additional EM energy within the orbit shell can return to Dirac space without manifesting external thermal effects. That expansion and contraction of the orbit shell provides the pressure pulse that runs the PlasmERG engine. The electronic excitation and microwaving of the gas mixture merely catalyzes the effect, and the output power from the engine is much greater than the input power needed to run it. This effect can be harnessed in a turbine by activating the gas mixture just prior to a de Laval nozzle that directs the expanded gases towards turbine blades, where they transfer momentum as is typical of any gas turbine engine. Immediately after momentum transfer the activating energy is discontinued, the gas mixture contracts, and is recirculated for another run. It is like a Brayton cycle but not converting thermal energy to turbine shaft horsepower for powering a generator, but rather converts the “space energy” to shaft horsepower. That is why the Papp process using the noble gas mixture is a “space energy converter”. For aerospace propulsion the space energy is used to actually ionize the gas mixture into a plasma, and the recombination of the plasma converts the energy drawn from Dirac space to thermal energy of the gas mixture as the plasma recombines, releasing energy as thermal excitation of the gas atoms, that is then expanded through conventional rocket engine nozzles for thrust. As long as the Papp engine is operating in closed adiabatic process mode one can avoid thermal effects, but in a rocket engine the gas mixture would actually be expelled from the vehicle as reaction mass. It would operate in that mode similar to a very high power arc engine thruster, but with thermal power coming from converted “space energy” rather than electrical excitation of the gas mixture.

        • GreenWin

          Robert, cool inclusion of Dirac into the Mills model. “…expansion and contraction of the orbit shell provides the pressure pulse that runs the PlasmERG engine.”

          What form of energy is this pulse (if not thermal or EMF?) And known Dirac energy is tiny (Casimir) – at what eV does the gas atom’s electron jump?

          • Robert Mockan

            The answers start with unconventional QM theory, and ends with unknown variables in an untested hypothesis. Another way
            of saying I do not know yet what all the answers are. I am presently on page 334 of Mills article “Exact Classical Quantum-Mechanical Solutions for One-through Twenty-Electron Atoms”, Physics Essays Vol 18, No. 3, 2005, pp 321-361. That is the unconventional QM, for a better understanding neo-classical QM. After that what is needed are spectrum analysis of the gas mixture(s), and the data points for the pressure pulses. Experiments are needed for that. (I purchased the krypton, have argon, and the neon is available). Then the precise nature of the orbit shell expansion needs to be elucidated. This is not a one or more electron ionization of the atom, but an interaction with virtual field space such that an additional quantum state with the outer orbit shell at a larger radii exists, but reversibly with changes in the Dirac space in the immediate vicinity of the atom. Evidently the electron shell is essential to manifesting the expansion-contraction phenomena, and as is usually the case this is probably a common natural phenomena that could be observed if people knew what to look for. What is holding up progress? Same problem as always. Funding. This kind of work is not cheap.

            • dsm


              I located this science report & it (as I had always believed) talks of the mix of gasses expanding before contracting & not the other way around ?


              Again here is a link to the demo Papp did for the US Navy Undersea Warfare group & again talks of explosion not implosion. PS I had thought this explosion was done in a cut down cannon breech but Gene Mallove here says it was an engine cylinder.



              The previous month (on October 27, 1968) Baumgartner and others had observed one of the detonation cylinders of the engine test fired in the California desert. In full public view, just a few cubic centimeters of noble gas had been admitted with a hypodermic needle to the sparking chamber, and this made the thick steel-walled chamber peel back like a banana when the device was electrically triggered. The collaborating observers from the Naval Underseas Warfare Laboratory (as the Pasadena, California lab was then called), who attended the desert test, had earlier sealed the chamber so that Papp or others could not insert illicit explosives as part of a hoax. Their names, according to Baumgartner, were: William White, Edmund Karig, and James Green.

            • Robert Mockan


            • Robert Mockan


              I’ve used a microwave oven magnetron for different experiments. Some have been related to the Papp process, but I have never seen the expansion effect that PlasmERG talks about.
              For example, pyrex test tube containing different inert gas mixture, spark electrodes positioned at one end, solenoid coil around it. Put tube into waveguide made for the magnetron to direct microwaves into the test tube. Turn magnetron on. Spark the gas mixture. The tube flares up as the ionized gases absorb more energy from the microwaves, and the tube lights up. No matter what strength the solenoid magnetic field, or when it is turned on and off during the sparking and gas ionization cycle, there is no pressure increase in the tube beyond what can be explained by thermal effect of the hot gases. Pressure measured with a manometer tube extending into the tube through the same rubber stopper holding the spark electrode wires.
              There is no absorption of heat at any time – that is the tube does not operate cold. The tube gets hot, and as long as power is going into it, it stays hot. But the heat is not above that calculated from the power going into the tube from the electric sparking and microwaves. I could increase the accuracy of the calorimetry, and increase the accuracy of the input electric power measurements, but from my observations nothing unusual is happening in the experiments I just described. So what is missing? The situation is very much like that with the LENR catalyst. Details about how to make the essential process work are missing. With LENR it is how to make the catalyst, and the test results from material analysis and the complete reaction calorimetry. With the Papp process (or the PlasmERG process) the test results from a successfully operating test apparatus, and the testing protocol. Also what are the ultimate reaction products in the PlasmERG process? Was that analysis ever done? Many questions remain about these subjects.

          • GreenWin

            I suppose I’ll have to look at that. So the expansion is not ionizing or eV level jump – perhaps a quantized reduction of Dirac resonance caused by gas-mixed atoms?, resulting in shell expansion.

            In this sense the “tuned resonance” of atoms and vacuum maintain equilibrium. When something “de-tunes” resonance, the e-shell expands to a new equilibrium. Thus the gas expands. An opposite resonance reverses the process and contracts gas. No heat, no radiation since only the resonance of particles is changed. A bit like music – without air pressure.

            • Robert Mockan

              Almost right on the complete hypothesis, but the exact form it takes depends on what data about the Papp engine is accepted as valid. Here is the problem.
              Enlarging the orbit shell by itself does NOT change the pressure.
              The gas laws do not work that way. At STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure) the only way to affect pressure is to change the NUMBER of gas particles in a given volume, OR change the TEMPERATURE of the gas in that volume. Normally, like in an ICE, the fuel burns in the cylinder, the temperature increases, the gas pressure increases, and the pressure pulse pushes the piston down. But if you go back to the very early reports on the Papp engine, the inventor disclosed that it works exactly opposite when the gas mixture is activated. In other words, the fixed volume of gases UNDER PRESSURE to begin with, undergo a decrease in pressure when activated. They are activated, not at TDC (top dead center)like in an ICE, to cause combustion of a fuel air mixture and a pressure pulse, but at BDC (bottom dead center), that causes the pressure in the cylinder to DECREASE, and it is the OPPOSING pressure on the crank from the piston in an adjacent INACTIVE cylinder, now containing gases at a relative higher pressure, that turns the engine shaft. When the activated gases are then deactivated, they return to their original, higher pressure, and the process continues. Piston by piston, cylinder by cylinder, gas volume by gas volume.
              IF those early reports are correct, then the activation of the gases, enlarging their outer electron shells, allows them to combine in a reversible process, that REDUCES the number of gas particles in the activated volume, thus resulting in a decrease in pressure in that cylinder.
              The reports of plasma formation, operating in an almost cold state without a great increase in temperature, and so on, would be consistent with the inert gases being made very reactive for a short interval when activated. The atoms of the gases would form a metastable compound, and in a container under pressure, the pressure would reduce as the gases reacted. But when the activation energy is removed, that keeps them in their reactive state, is removed, they immediately disassociate again, and the pressure in the container increases to what it was originally. The “space energy” conversion is still where the energy is coming from to do all this, but exactly how is still a puzzle. IF this is the process, then the turbine design would call for activation immediately AFTER passing through the turbine blades, and the activated gases at lower pressure would then be pumped through a one way valve, would be deactivated, and provide high pressure gases again for the turbine engine.
              And the rocket engine design would have the “fuel” stored in an activated state, possibly magnetized, and metastable, and when used for propulsion it would be deactivated, and all the contained energy released, inside the engine chamber.
              (The complexity of the Papp engine hypothesis is one reason few people like to even think about it. Too many “miracles” needed for the engine to work.
              Just like “cold fusion”).

            • dsm


              Just read this bit about the gas shrinking then expanding. It is a good explanation.

              Am trying to reconcile that with the massive explosion Papp demonstrated to the navy where he ripped open the breech of a cannon sealed up with a few cc’s of Nobel gasses & his triggering mechanism. I had always take that to indicate an expansion happened 1st then a contraction.

              I have some other details tucked away somewhere & will dig it out.

              Interesting topic 🙂


            • Robert Mockan


              You said: “A bit like music – without air pressure.” An interesting comment. You have been down the rabbit hole?

              “Such effects are not transmutations. They are merely changed dimensions of states of motion. All of the notes which the organist plays are but one tone multiplied or divided in rhythmic pressure relations”- Walter Russell

              PlasmERG of course is in error that the Papp process is helium fusion, but I wonder if they would dare to tread where the concept of “space bending” to extract “space energy” is the norm of thinking.

              Ronald Kovac confirmed the “space bending” with plasma and magnetic fields, but no one other than myself, that I know of, ever related that to the Papp process.
              Have you studied Russell and Kovac?

            • GreenWin

              Robert, if you are signed up to Frank’s messaging service I’ll continue there. Less verticalization – and yes I have looked at Kovac et al, repeat of Russell’s transmute stuff.

        • dfnj

          Robert, I find the idea of the force created by the metal lattice contracting, as it releases heat, could be a way to overcome the coulomb barrier resulting in LENRs or fusion very intriguing.

          I am very encouraged by Hagelstein’s recent comments at William and Mary seminar that his current theoretical model is now complete. I can’t wait to read his paper.

        • dsm


          Love all the detail. It provides a level of depth that is hard to come by on the topic of Noble gas engines.

          Getting back to the turbine, I must be missing something in your explanation as I can’t get past seeing the only way the expansion/contraction can be harnessed is in a confined container (cylinder & piston) as the expansion triggered by igniting the plasma is predictable & drives the piston a set distance then the contraction creates a vacuum & pulls it back.

          Put another way, the timed pulsing of the gas as it is converted to plasma & ignited is what gives the energy that gets converted to mechanical power. The comments you made about how the energy is released are really interesting.

          In any turbine (the basic principle) is that a flow of gas drives the turbine blades & that force is converted into mechanical energy i.e. such as the turbine blades geared to drive a propeller. In jet turbines the gas flows right through the engine as expanded air & burned fuel. But with Noble gases you don’t have that flow.

          Noble gas can be pulsed but how does pulsing the gas do anything to a turbine blade as the gas as I understand it must be sealed & thus contained & any loss of the gas requires it be replaced and in the right mix.

          Again, am sure you have this explained but I missed seeing it.

          Cheers DSM
          (PS thanks so much for the great detail you went into in your replies – I am hoping this topic gets taken up in the new Forums).

          • Robert Mockan

            You said: “..Noble gas can be pulsed but how does pulsing the gas do anything to a turbine blade as the gas as I understand it must be sealed & thus contained & any loss of the gas requires it be replaced and in the right mix.”

            It might be easier to imagine a free piston engine with a gas charge on both sides of a free moving piston in a long cylinder. Excitation electronics would be located at both ends of the cylinder, and when operating the gas mixture would expand and contract in both ends of the cylinder, but 180 degrees out of phase, so when one side is expanding, the other is contracting, and so on. Now if the piston was also a magnet, and the magnet was moving back and forth through coils of wire, then we would have a linear generator, that could make electricity. Linear generators are nothing new, but because most machinery is rotating, we do not use them much. Often we want a rotating shaft output, and not just electricity. In a free piston engine, used just for electricity, we could dispense with the cranks and bearings of the typical piston engine.

            But how do we get turbine power? Well, if we put a turbine wheel where the piston is, in a free piston engine, the gas flow can circle around instead of going back and forth. In one end of the cylinder the gas mixture expands, the higher pressure causes it to flow through the turbine, to the low pressure side. On the low pressure side it contracts, and also because we have converted some of the gas enthalpy to work in the turbine wheel, that should also cause the temperature of the gas mixture to decrease.
            Now the gas is pumped around to the expansion side of the turbine wheel again, and goes through another expansion initiated by the electronic controller circuit. In technical terms, we have increased the gas mixture enthalpy again. This is a Brayton turbine system, with enthalpy added to the gas mixture from the Papp process, (that includes the addition of energy, but the concept of enthalpy is more inclusive of many other relevant variables to the system). The Brayton cycle can be run pulsed, but there should not be any need to do so. Keep the controller on continuous, and the gas mixture going though the expansion cylinder will expand there, flow through the turbine, contract on the other side, and be pumped back into the higher pressure expansion cylinder (now the reaction chamber). Note however, that depending on the hypothesis that applies to the Papp process, the controller process may cause expansion, or it may cause contraction. If the latter, then the “reaction chamber” would be on the low pressure downstream side of the turbine, not the high pressure upstream side. Finally, the return of the gas mixture to an original volume.
            That happens in all the designs used in this thought experiment. The spaces enclosing the volumes are at different locations, but the volumes remain.

      • Robert Mockan

        If you look at what I’ve written and read the original Papp patents, you would think they are completely different technology.
        Papp had an Edison approach. Evidently much more so than Rossi.
        Papp’s patents are almost useless in understanding or applying the process he claimed was being utilized in his engine. I’ve taken results from others research work done in the 80s, 90s, and more recent, indicating that the inert gases can be “activated” and used for power production, but beyond that similarity with what Papp was doing there is almost no common ground between his patents and how the PlasmERG works. But see what I’ve written about how to apply the PlasmERG process to a turbine, and note there may be two different ways of doing so, depending on what the final theory is about how the PlasmERG really works.

      • Omega Z


        The pictures I’ve seen lead me to believe that the PlasmERG would be directly hooked up to a Generator. Not a turbine.

        • dsm2


          The basic PlasmERG engine is a typical piston engine relying on expansion& contraction of the Noble gas mix.

          I was trying to figure out how Robert would have a turbine Noble gas engine. I can’t see any way it could work.

          Cheers DSM

    • Charles

      The company I worked for put out a Collision Avoidance System (CAS) for ocean going vessels and it has virtually brought an end to collisions at sea. Except for a few ship drivers who think they are smarter or can ignore CAS or get overwhelmed by their desire to show-off.

      If you are right, we will need a 3d CAS to prevent a billion space ships from running into each other. Another great invention that needs inventing.

      • jacob

        no need to worry Charles,it has already been done,space craft are traveling at warp 5 (speed of light squared 4 times,and they,our cousins have the technology,and have conquered space millions of years ago, we are just at a toddler stage,compared to them. And our Science community are more like spoiled toddlers that won’t share toys.

        • Robert Mockan

          While I too am aware of comments Dr. Steven Greer has made,
          about many subjects having to do with ETs, I try to confine my comments about advanced sciences to what I, personally, could duplicate in a laboratory (with sufficient funds). Putting forth conjecture about the relative speed of inter-dimensional UFO compared to the speed of light merely tarnishes one’s credibility when trying to discuss subjects that have some documented experimental evidence backing them. Simply put, people who have not studied these subjects in detail do not know what the evidence is for advanced technology, or if there is any at all. Even though Greer has taken testimonials from expert witnesses about advanced technology, there is no way to know for certain if flight characteristics of the vehicles you describe are real, since the “evidence’ is all anecdotal. If any body is interested who Greer is, here is one of his web sites.

          • jacob

            Robert , I don’t have to prove to anybody that I am normal,and you define to me what is normal,people think I am a genius ,until I cross the line,than I am suddenly a nutcase,I will not be politically correct,and I am way ahead as far as understanding reality and truth ,It is just so sad ,the rest is so far behind and still believe the big bang and believe every thing came from nothing.
            I don’t need anybody’s approval or recognition or praise,I am fully aware who I am ,and I am not going to give you proof of warp 5,but it happens to be documented in Bonn Germany,translated from a ancient language into english,just because nobody cared enough to find the truth,that is really not my problem.

            Good luck to you all ,I am wasting my time here,good bye.

            • GreenWin

              jacob, I doubt Robert meant to critique your open mindedness. He, like most scientists wants to discuss empirical data. Your comments spark lively discussion and are appreciated.

            • Bigwilly

              Oh come on Jacob,

              Don’t take things so personally.

              Sometimes I think your comments sound like pure kookery but that is just one man’s opinion and I definitely enjoy the read either way.


            • Robert Mockan

              Please pardon my lack of tact.
              I should have just asked do you have other than anecdotal evidence for your statements. Not that anecdotal evidence is bad, but by itself makes it difficult to figure out how something might work without more details.

            • Barry

              Don’t go Jacob. You’ve offered much. I’m not as left brained as a lot of you, but as an artist I sometimes wander to the edge. Perhaps it is true of scientists as well.

      • GreenWin

        Nice problem Charles. Provided multi-dimensional space (4+dim), this should be a quick solve. And “propulsion” that moves 4+dim space time immediately around the craft.

    • jacob

      The US Air Force has a plane it is called the stealth fighter or bomber ,it has capabilities that are not shared with the public, after take off with regular jet engine power, the special design of the plane used millions of volts of static electricity on the wings to turn the incoming air,which is 20% oxygen and close to 80% nitrogen in to something that the jet engines can burn with out a heat signature coming out of the jets,so does the oxygen and nitrogen produce some kind of noble gas effect,or is it closer to transforming it into nitrous oxide ? who knows,but it leaves no heat signature.

      The plasma ERG is basically 2 pistons a crankshaft ,and plasma arc ignition,to explode and then implode,explode ,implode,and so on using the same gas mixture over and over again.
      In my mind the Noble gas explodes to create heat ,and then implodes to cool with no heat gain,since the engine does get warm it is most likely just the friction.

      FYI,these Plasma ERG engines based on the Joseph PaPP concept has been around since the late 1960’s

      SO What is the problem,there is no problem with the PLASMA ERG engine,except it’s development has taken 50 years, because it does not burn gasoline or simply no fuel at all,

      How would you like to have a car that can go around the world with out refueling.
      How about a owner operator of a tractor trailer,never having to put fuel into his trucks,

      The technology was here a long time ago,so WHO stopped it from being developed,be my guest ,and give it some thought.

      Will LENR be stopped as well?

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        jacob: Not if we can all build our own LENR reactor.

  • JBJ

    The US could stop defending Arab oil, Europe would not be held hostage to Russian fuel supplies, and the cost of the energy component of everything would go down. Those are pretty good selling points for embracing LENR.

    I’m sincerely grateful to Rossi for accelerating the development of LENR, regardless of whether he has a product. I’m now leaning to the belief that he does, partly because I’m daily leaning more to the belief that LENR is real, to the extent that I’m starting to tell people about it. Also, Rossi’s behavior is well within the parameters of what can be expected from a technology entrepreneur.

  • Alexvs

    Anyone will embrace high exoenergetic LENRs for obvious reasons as many times exposed. A different question were why would anyone embrace X’s E-Cat. X for Rossi, Defkalion, Brillouin etc.

  • Richard Hill

    It is puzzling that people are so convinced that LENR as free energy will be revolutionary. We have free energy now. Geothermal is available right under your feet. Wind is free. It is the harvesting that is expensive, because these free energies are diffuse, not concentrated. Rossi and the others are not showing that their LENR results are concentrated. Perhaps Rossi is harvesting cosmic rays, which explains the intermittency of his work. Also, his “on the market” 1 GW system looks like a diffuse cosmic ray harvesting array. Cosmic rays such as muons hit earth at about 1 per second per square cm. (wikipedia)

    • geothermal much more work to capture few MW
      much more cash
      it can help but cannot produte the petawatt we need.

      LENR is not free, it is free fuel, but not free reactor
      it can replace all global energy, for 6mont of GDP
      see: http://www.lenrforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27

      to be simple, if I want to install an LENR furnance, I just plug it as a replacement of my gaz furnace.

      for geothermal, I have to call a drilling company, and have the same trouble as with any drilling like shale gaz.

      for sun it is the same need of huge investement.

      LENR is simply 10 times less expensive than nuclear, and 100 less that solar.

    • If you believe that geothermal, wind, solar are all free then you must believe iron, aluminum, gold, silver, etc, ores are also free as they are under our feet. What then is not free? Your definition of free encompasses everything and is ludicrous.

    • GreenWin

      Geotherm has big corrosion issues – very spendy. Wind, solar, both big, spendy, and intermittent. LENR produces constant heat with very little fuel. And it does not kill birds – like wind farms.

      • Richard Hill

        Perhaps I didnt make my question clear enough. Since the base energy from many sources is free, then it is the cost of harvesting it that is the issue.(as you and Alain point out) My question is, why are people assuming that the cost of harvesting LENR is irrelevant? From the photo, Rossi’s 1MW plant looks expensive.

        • GreenWin

          Yes – a hand built prototype would be expensive. But even at his pricing of $1.5M/MW – cheaper, safer than fission, uninterrupted solar/wind, and with near-zero fuel cost over life of unit. I would expect scale engineering to quickly reduce size and cost further by one half or less.

          • Richard Hill

            Greenwin, thanks for your reply.
            Rossi is not being overwhelmed by orders for his 1MW plant, because it is 1MW of heat energy, at a fairly low temperature. With current technology you can get 1MW of heat energy at 1-200 degrees C as waste heat from a 300KW diesel powered genset. If you can sell the electrical power or use it yourself your 1MW of heat energy is free. This calculation changes with heat at 600 degrees C, but it is still not as much game changing as commenters here seem to think.
            Near zero fuel cost may not include the electrical input to the Rossi reactor. Rossi claims a COP of 6 for the low temperature Ecat.
            This means that his 1MW plant requires more than 100KW of input power. This would be about $10 per hour in NW USA, more elsewhere.
            What is the claimed COP for the 600 degree C reactor?

            • Omega Z


              The Game plan would be to produce 40% to 60% conversion to Electric.

              Use a portion of that to run itself. About 15%. The rest can be sold. Technically you could claim Infinite COP.

  • Italo R.

    An incredible quantity of people have already preordered one or more Home E-Cats (I am one of them) from the official site of Andrea Rossi. No money requested, the payment only when the Cat will be ready and alive.
    This is the example of open minded people, that have not been influenced by wickedness and falsity written against Rossi and his work.

    • John

      I’m a skeptic but I’ll order one the day that physicists from around the world who I trust say that the things work. But I have a question for the believers: would you send your money now to Rossi now to be first in the queue? If Rossi said the price for the first week was $1000, would you send your money now? Yes or no? If the actual cost was less, you’d get a refund of the difference, but if the cost was more, you wouldn’t have to pay more because you were a “believer”.

      • Italo R.

        It doesn’t work this way.
        When the E-Cat will be ready for the market (complete with all certifications), Rossi will write to all people having a preorder, telling them the price and all specifications.
        If one accept, it’s OK, pay and will receive the E-Cat.
        Otherwise one is free to not accept and cancel his preorder, and mustn’t pay nothing.
        People who buy the E-Cat obviously will install it.
        If it works, it’s OK and will invite people and skeptics to visit his house.
        If it doesn’t work, you will return back the E-Cat to Rossi, and will be refunded.

      • mcloki

        Who gives a rats ass about physicists. Trust a thermometer. All this thing “purportedly” does is make heat over a long period of time. All you should care about is the utility of the device.

  • Sheikh Mubarak

    That invisible atom hiding isnside it a giant ghost of energy.

  • NJT

    Yes, I too was a part of that early revolution called the internet and I did form a company and a network that prospered from that early .com era – it was exciting, great fun and profitable for many of us. I now look forward to being a part of this new energy revolution (LENR) as well and have begun to formulate a method to that end. Many more will follow!

    • Robert Mockan

      You might want to look into getting a manufacturing license for the PlasmERG engine. I believe you can buy disclosure of available information on the gas mixture and the activation process for $5000 if you want to continue developing the technology based on what is known at the present time, and being used in the PlasmERG engine going commercial next year.
      As with the Rossi E-Cat, however, if the technology proves too threatening to vested interests in the status quo, expect to see it buried, soon, because products are getting very close to being marketed. After that you might not be able to obtain the essential information about the gas mixture being used and how it is activated. As with the LENR catalyst, everything else is just engineering details.

      • dsm2


        Again re PlasmERG. You say available next year but for the past year they (John Rohner) has been assuring Hank Mills & Sterling Allan it would go on sale in Sept this year. Do you know of any recent change in their plans ?.

        I am naturally intrigued by this concept as it seems to me to be every bit as revolutionary as LENR (if not more so).

        Essentially fuel-less engines with no exhaust pollution would be amazing.


        PS anyone who hasn’t looked into Papp should read Gene Mallove’s story about Papp & his engine – it is one hell of a story from one amazing commentator (Mallove).

        • artefact


          if it works I think it is LENR. It uses the same triggering (preassure, heat(from compression), frequencies, sparks) and shows anomalous cooling like some LENR researchers observed. And all that was shown before 1989.

          What I also think is that the LENR+ devices actualy use the nickel just to create single proton H and the reaktion occurs in a plasma which has not to be directly at the nickel. Rossi once stated (some month ago), that the reaction NI/H is not the main reaction.

          In one Video from DGT one could see a screen displaying the triggering of a reactor. There was a spike and then the reaction slowly calmed down until the next triggering (which we can guess now was the sparc plug). That could be the same reaction like PlasmERG just in slow motion.


          • dsm


            This might be complicated. Noble gas engines done require the gas to be pressurized only converted into plasma.

            The similarity with LENR is going to that energy is obtained without breaching the Coloumb barrier.

            As with LENR there are no clearly worked out & accepted theories for what the gasses do.

            One explanation has to do with the atoic structure of each gas having an impact on another such that a chain of expansion starts with one gas & impacts the next one in the chain (based on its atomic structure) the impact being the expansion of all the gas.

            I think Robert Mockan has covered aspects of this – just need to read his posts again & digest them.

            Cheers DSM

  • I think that one of the more compelling facts about our interest in the E-Cat is that many people, including me, have put their capacity for belief on the line as they have “embraced” the E-Cat, to use your phrase. We probably should have demanded more evidence, more tests and more proof of Rossi’s progress, but our instincts have told us to trust him and wait. I hope that he will soon show us the photographs of an assembly line with workers – or robots – building the devices inside a substantial factory, tell us more about the way they look – I don’t think they’ll look like the ones in the storage container in Bologna at this advanced point – and let us know in ways beyond his words that our faith and hope in his work will be rewarded. We are just as committed as he is, in many ways.

    • daniel maris

      Yeah – let’s hope so, otherwise we have to face the crowing of the sceptics which is not the loveliest of sounds.

      Of course Rossi isn’t the whole of LENR, but if he doesn’t have anything then by implication DGT, Focardi and Piantelli are all called into question as well.

      • Bigwilly

        Good morning gentlemen,

        If Rossi does not deliver crowing of the skeptics seems like it should be the least of our worries. You could call me a skeptic. I want independent proof. I also want Rossi to succeed, (I want cheaper energy).

        I can not speak for other “skeptics, shills and meanies” but if two months from now Rossi doesnt deliver there will be no crowing from me. Why would I? Him not delivering is standard ops as evidenced by his track history. That is a fact that does not make me happy either.

        I would absolutely love for the other commentors on this blog to say “look BW, Rossi was right, and you were wrong”.


  • Iggy Dalrymple

    The obvious reason why LENR will be embraced is that it produces nearly free energy.

    What’s amazing is that all sorts of people are following this… liberals, conservatives, communists, socialists, libertarians, anarchists, tree-huggers, rednecks, scientists,and dilettantes. Even the skeptics are beginning to give up on attacking LENR and are now focusing their ridicule on Rossi.

    • no conspiracy.
      simply the mainstream get so violent to dismiss LENr at the beginning, for understandable reasons (bad behaviors, questionable measures, bad description of difficulties, many failure, no theory)…
      now they cannot admit they are non-scientific and look ridiculous.
      the theory of that locked denial

      • Karl

        Like many I heard and was intrigued by the F&P Cold Fusion 1989 news release. After it was debunked and silenced for whether reason I noticed 20 years afterwards thanks to Mats Lewan and his article series in http://www.nyteknik.se about Rossi and his E-Cat during 2011.

        With my background as an innovator and entrepreneur, though, not precisely in the energy sector I have a lifelong interest in renewable energy solutions. I found that the behaviour of Rossi was not particularly odd for an innovator and the demonstrations perhaps not convincing to 100 % but still. Can a fraudster supported by several reputable scientists, in Italy and Sweden that were convinced he had something be ignored?

        I started to take part in quite a fiercely debate on the Swedish paper with a curious approach let’s wait and see before judgement. It quickly appeared that there quite a community that tried to make a joke of Cold Fusion and Rossi in particular. For me it clearly seemed to be a loudly and arguable group that had a goal to continue to put the label of junk science on the field. We have seen a similar on multiple international sites.

        There are too many reputable old and experience scientists that do not seem to have any particular too loose and not anything particular to gain other than relieve the truth and they are convinced and can also prove it. E. Storms and his interest in this sector after his pension is a good example and several others could be named. By reading scientific papers from such people, without being directly involved in any of the projects, I find the proof that of anomalous must be taken for real by now and in addition that we must take Rossi et al very serious. Although I think human been will and the world environment will gain a lot for the use of virtually limited less clean energy, I believe we still to many shortcomings preventing us of creating a heaven on earth.

        • Karl

          Sorry delete function did now work on the site. I was not mentioned as a reply to this comment.

  • Kim

    One reason for the up tick is that younger people
    are looking around and are mad that mad men have stole
    their heritage and futures.


    • Barry

      Hi Kim,
      I wish that was true. The vast majority of people who are looking into Cold Fusion are between the ages of 45 – 65. I wish young people would take more of an interest. Peace, Barry