We’re used to Andrea Rossi making statements about his work on the Journal of Nuclear Physics web site. Some are more dramatic than others, and this latest one could be considered more on the dramatic side:
Italo R.
June 24th, 2012 at 10:42 AM
Dear dr. Rossi, in these hot summer days we all are sweating.
What about you, near your 600 °C device?
Warm (or, better, fresh) regards…
Italo R.
-
Andrea Rossi
June 24th, 2012 at 1:37 PM
Dear Italo R.:
Actually, I am in the USA, close to 20 reactors working above 600 Celsius. We must collect at least 20 000 hours of test. This is not sweating: this is vaporizing, as correctly the snakes say.
Soon (weeks) we will publish the report of the high temperature reactor validation.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
If we take Rossi at his word here, the fact that he says there are ‘close to 20′ reactors suggests that Rossi has been able replicate this high temperature effect successfully. If 20,000 hours of testing are required, it would take 20 reactors about 42 days to reach that cumulative total.
Rossi says that these reactors are running ‘above’ 600 C — how high above, we are not told. Also, he mentions that the published report will be a ‘validation’. Taken literally, that would suggest that there could be some 3rd party signing off on the data, but sometimes Rossi’s English can’t be taken as a perfect translation of what he means. Anyway, it looks like we’re going to have to wait at least a few weeks more, however, for more details on all this.
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So are these tests producing steam or not? All I want is the truth!
Dear Steven N. Karels:
We do not produce steam boilers, so this issue will be assessed by the boiler manufacturer. We will not manufacture or engineer heat exchangers of any kind. What we have to do is to obtain the primary walls at a temperature above the temperature demanded for the steam, with the due power. We do not put these reactor in series, since they reach singularly the demanded temperature.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Well, it seems that the buyer of the reactor must insert himself a heat exchanger, to extract the heat from the hot surface warmed at 600°C by the reactor (perhaps having another fluind flowing to the other side?).
If this is true, it is the buyer that will be able to make steam at pressure and temperature wanted and fixed by his devices using that heat…
I am only supposing…
If this is so, this means that the new reactors are -solid state- reactors, rather than the water flow reactors of the old design.
That inherently changes a lot of the mechanics. Makes the device a lot smaller and simpler.
Perhaps with the 600 C model Rossi only plans to make the core and to outsource the heat engine, while with the heater-only 100 C home E-cat Leonardo makes everything. Since turbine efficiency depends on its size, larger multicore 600 C units produce less waste heat per electric energy than smaller ones, while both have infinite COP and are using similar cores. It sounds a wise strategy.
At 600 C, you are producing steam!
Rossi is not making -steam boilers-, which are a particular type of physical device. The E-cat is not a steam boiler.
The high temperature version might be designed for oil or glycol coolant, which then circulates through a separate ‘oil boiler’ – an off-the-shelf heat exchange boiler. This might explain Rossi’s cryptic reply as he is only concerned with the reactor, which is fitted with inlet and outlet connections to which anything with the right specs can be attached.
Very interesting, Peter. Good catch.
Lu, Siemens AG has selected a micro-steam turbine from Energent Corp that uses a Kalina Cycle to generate up to 600kW electrical energy. It is small and in use in the USA by HVAC vendor Carrier to convert excess industrial steam to energy.
http://www.energent.net/Technology/Euler-Turbine.html
It may not be the perfect match for the 1MW ecat but turbines in this category from Siemens and elsewhere are good candidates. The engineering issues on building really small steam turbines grow the smaller they get.
Since all Rossi seems to have to deliver is the heat – his engineering partners with lots of boiler/heat exchanger experience should produce good options.
Further along I expect we’ll see proposals to directly convert the beta-decay plasma energy to electricity. George Miley has given papers on how to do this in conventional fission reactors – and Randy Mills does this (differently) in his CIHT cell.
what is that some kind of tesla turbine?
Thank you all for the responses. Sounds like whatever is happening, Siemens AG is a company well-poised to take advantage of the high temperature E-Cat’s capabilities. It will be interesting to see if this is the company which will take the 1MW E-Cat public. Siemens AG should be able to handle the attention and it would be a marketing dream for them.
The only downside might be that with Germany’s very sensible decision to lose nuclear fission, Siemens may be hard pressed to service their home market for some years, before turning their attention to exporting to the rest of us. Maybe they’ll license their designs.
Peter, Siemens AG is a multinational engineering firm. If they choose to manufacture an e-cat/CHP system – they have facilities world wide. And the expertise to build quickly, with high quality.
Also, having built many of the world’s nuclear fission reactors, they have a recognizable brand with strong reputation. So does GE, Toshiba, Honda, Mitsubishi, etc.
That’s true, although they don’t have vast manufacturing presence here (UK). I did some work for one of their subsidiaries here who assembled coal fired power station hardware, but the Benson boilers they used had to be shipped over from Germany.
Ah, well… Probably a great opportunity for local manufacturing or new plants. I don’t expect there would be much resistance from any nation offered thousands of new manufacturing jobs.
I also see a large expansion of traditional HVAC employees who will be trained up in LENR installation and maintenance. We can look on this like another major appliance – stove, fridge, or water heater.
I think branding will matter greatly as appliance consumers rely on brand identity and reputation.
At the beginning of this thread Jimr wondered how many assistants Rossi had helping him with the E-cat. Today he responded on JONP:
Dear Mr.Rossi,
Just curious. How many researchers/scientists are you currently employing to develop/fine tune your ecat devices? Additionally, have any television networks and or cable stations in the US or elsewhere, contacted you directly or indirectly requesting an interview and or a peek at your ecats?
Dennis Lynn
Andrea Rossi
June 25th, 2012 at 9:47 AM
Dear Dennis Lynn:
1- Seven
2- yes
Warm Regards,
A.R.
The implications of a Rossi/Focardi Siemens AG partnership appear to be driving the shill to shrill!
With Siemens AG having bailed out of a major solar energy player – Archimede Solar Energy, makers of CSP technology – they have signaled a major market shift. And according to iltamtam.it Siemens is now courting new energy player Andrea Rossi and his e-cat.
We are already aware Siemens has been helping with 1MW controllers and turbine candidates – so, though unverified, it would make sense for the German manufacturing giant to take an early position in cold fusion commerce.
http://www.iltamtam.it/Generali/Economia-e-Lavoro/Ce-l-E-Cat-di-Rossi-dietro-il-divorzio-Angelantoni-Siemens.aspx
The only interesting thing is when Rossi’s customer will reveal himself and reveal the power plants to the public.
Is there anybody independent and knowledgable in the technical matter who has actually seen these devices operating ?
Here is what I consider to be the best articles and posts on the latest up-to-date information on Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR) or Controlled Electron Capture Reactions (CECR).
Dr. Edmund Storms: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SorcxYf8VYg
SRI’s Mike McKubre: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtweR_qGHEc
Robert Godes: http://www.brillouinenergy.com/Docs/BrillouinEnergyHypothesis.pdf
Good article: http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/New-LENR-Machine-is-the-Best-Yet.html
Widon-Larsen Theory: http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2010/35/SR35913widomlarsen.shtml
Best animation showing the reaction: http://youtube.googleapis.com/v/n7pInnbzhG0
Wisdom Larsen theory is a sick joke. The proponents of it ruthlessly attack those who do not support it. For example, Krivit did not start attacking Rossi until he stated his technology had nothing to do with Widom Larsen theory.
WL has been heavily criticized by knowledgeable nuclear scientists – especially Peter Thieberger at Brookhaven National Lab.
Yes, but their identity is a secret and/or their observations under NDA. Or so I’ve heard through second hand sources.
Google the following:
“Edmund Storms on The Nuclear Active Environment and Metals That Work”
“Cafe Sci Silicon Valley: What Happened to Cold Fusion?”
“Brillouin Energy Corp Brillouin Energy Hypothesis.pdf”
“New LENR Machine is the Best Yet”
“Widom-Larsen Theory Simplified”
“CECR”
Here is another good animation. Google the following:
“SuperWave™ Fusion excess heat process visualization”
Where is Dr. Hagelstein when you need him?
Yes, Mats Lewan
http://ecat.com/ecat-videos/ecat-com-interviews-mats-lewan/
Roland Pettersson
http://ecat.com/ecat-videos/ecat-com-interviews-dr-roland-pettersson/
Sven Kullander/Hanno Essén http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3144827.ece are independent, knowledgable and have seen the E-Cat operating.
thanks for the above suggestions. Many valuable sources in deed. However, my question was not related to LENR in general and also not to earlier e-cat demonstrations. My question was related to the 20 E-cat devices mentioned in the article, so I repeat more precisely: Who has actually seen these 20 e-cat devices operating ? Who has measured the energy output over a longer time, and how ?
Good question Christian. A. Rossi seems to operate in secrecy. We are all waiting for him to show us what’s behind the curtain. I have a high regard for the scientists who are sharing ideas so they can pool and learn from one another to quicken the science, but A. Rossi is not one of them. He is a one man show. Worse case scenario will be, there is nothing behind the curtain but smoke and mirrors. Fortunatly, as for Cold Fusion itself, I don’t think anyone can say LENR is pathological science anymore. We have surely passed that tipping point.
I wish Rossi all the best success. Soon he can be the richest man in the world and enjoying hundreds of nubile slaves as he sun baths in the most beautiful places of the world.
But I still have the nagging fear that he does not really understand the physics of the reaction. And he is playing with the same forces used in hydrogen bombs. So on the one hand, we are to accept his word the he is capable of generating that much energy with his device even through we have no independent verification. But also on the other hand, not only is he doing it, but his direct conduit to God has revealed to him it is also perfectly safe.
I would love for this to be successful. But 20 reactors is beyond reckless. Thank God I do not live in Florida!!!
His products are undergoing independent certification at this time. If you believe he’s a fraud why are you worried. If you think his products are real then trust the well established certification process to proceed and maintain safety.
Are you kidding me with this argument?
I am obviously more worried that he is NOT a fraud. No I do not believe what they are observing is not happenging.
But also no I do not trust the UL certification process to replace good science.
We need a proven theoretical model describing the nature of the physics involved.
You can’t have it both ways. On the one hand it’s okay to claim it’s producing the same types of energy created by hydrogen bombs, but it is perfectly safe.
My problem with Rossi is I do not believe he understands the entire process. And certainly he is not capable of creating a theoretical model and associated mathematics describing nature’s behavior.
Personaly, given no accepted theory describing the reaction, I would prefer Rossi do his nuclear reaction testing outside the US.
Where did Rossi study physics?
“We need a proven theoretical model describing the nature of the physics involved.”
No, we do NOT! I am sick of hearing this argument. No theory is needed, period…just reproducible results. Vast amounts of technology have been developed and used without any “theory” whatsoever.
“Andrea Rossi, the ECAT developer, is an Italian inventor who has a Doctor’s Degree in Philosophy from Milan University 1975 (Dottore Magistrale in Filosofia) Università degli studi di Milano 1975) where he conducted his thesis on relativity.”
http://ecat.com/inventor-andrea-rossi
This probably won’t satisfy you but he is not an uneducated tinkerer as the shills infer.
I don’t think its wrong to ask the question.
What have been understood so far is that this i a phenomenon taking place near or at the surface of lattice structures (possibly in a vicinity of disrupeted or doped place in the lattice surface).
It appear as though AR is aiming at a operational range where some soft gamma is radiated. AR has also stated that the reactor will shut itself down if there is some runaway behavior, as the metal will melt and the precious lattice structure will be destroyed.
HOWEVER: if that would happen to a home ecat or any other LENR device in a runaway situation, what are the processes going on in that very short moment the reactor melts?
There is lead shielding around the reactor and the melting happens so fast that no problems are incurred other than the melting of the nickel which destroys the reactor. Rossi has referenced the fact that he has had meltdowns during the development of his reactor and Piantelli also had a meltdown of one of his reactors. I think that this has also happened several times at other labs. As far as I know there has not been any recorded incident of a LENR researcher being injured as a result of the LENR process.
One of the reasons for Rossi seeking help from Focardi initially was to assist him with safety issues.
True,
there are not many known deaths related to LENR (I know only of McKubre’s staff member, eledgebly from an explosion in the equipment), but nevertheless, when AR has tested his devices (as seen from photos from Focardi’s presentation some time back at TED), he seemed to be in a controlled environment intended for this testing with the expectance that things might go wrong.
Still, shielding or not, it appear that there is a potential that the energy release in the melting regime is some 10-100 times higher (conservatively speaking), so needing to know the risk in that regime and understand the actual process is a bit more than just intellectual therapy.
I would imagine that any authorisation/validation made by authorities would demand such understanding and a ton of empirical data to support.
With that said, we should not let this stop us, but lets not suppress ideas. Saftey is key if we are to be allowed to have these puppies at home…
@ Dave & Warthog
All the explosions I’ve read about involved the hydrogen & usually someone being careless.
Rossi has Eliminated the Hydrogen feed by using a chemical tablet of sorts inserted into the core to avoid this. Also to improve the chances of certification.
I’m not sure, but I think someone actually questioned if this was possible on his blog just prior to Rossi reporting doing this.
Rossi may be using a form of crowd sourcing thru his JNP site. Even bad suggestions can sometimes effect your train of thought into different directions. Kind of like breaking writers block.
It’s true Dave, we don’t totally understand this science yet, but I would prefer it to the nuclear power plant down the road or the oil based economy we are mired in.
Sorry to digress but we do not understand gravity. We understand the equation of gravity but not the mechanism. By your logic we should stop using it, advise you hold on to something so you don’t float off into space!
It is normal for research to go beyond what is not understood, that is why research is done! Researcher and observers have routinely tested for radiation and are not reckless. Likewise researchers have had to design reactors so heat can be safely released without danger. Certification processes also insure safety needs are met for consumer products.
gravity is not understood,you are right on,gravity can be canceled out by a certain type of dc voltage,flying carpets were last reported in the 1200′s ad and they were made by people,who knew the secrets how to built them,it was a process where a certain type of clay was boiled and its remnant were woven into the carpet,and it cancelled out gravity to whatever came in contact with it,no different then the modern day round wing planes,with an unlimited payload capacity,and maybe stories about superman ,one has to wonder about the fabric with anti gravity qualities,sometimes fiction may have a ring of truth to it,while the known reality appears to be the truth ,or is it fictional and make believe?
IMHO, anti-gravity devices are not practical. Neither is time travel since time is a defined imaginary non-thing. Gravity force cause isn’t agreed upon science.
You really need to do some reasearch on the level of difficulty involved with creating a thermo nuclear explosion. This takes an extremely precise implosion of the nuclear fuel at very high pressures. The likely hood of an accidental explosion even from an actual bomb is virtually nil. The idea that an Ecat could set off a nuclear explosion by accident is preposterous
Wait up Roosi!
He said is big announcement was delayed because of the earthquakes in Italy but he is apparently warming up Florida with 20 ecats running 24/7 over 600′C ???
I am so confused!!!!
he never said it was because of the earthquake
His comment did not seem like an ad hominem attack to me. I do not know how your conclude it was a “put-down”.
Your comment reminds me of religious zealots who upon any inspection or commentary on their beloved doctrine that does not follow the accepted dogma is considered blasphemous and sinful.
The blog is rife with commentors who will immediately bring up hot fusion or label you as a patho-skeptic or big natural gas astroturfer so get used to it.
No offense Pete, no necessarily you.
BW
No offence BW – I know where you are coming from. You boys sure stick together.
Is there some other commentors from Virginia here?
I want to move to Virginia as soon as I can :<
Dont buddy, it is too humid there. I live in Rhode Island now. I like snow so it works out.
Dave – it was hardly a compliment for Rossi, was it.
Good point. I did not see the double o in the misspelling of the name.
I agree, there’s no reason to be disrespectful. However, Rossi brings the circus environment on himself.
I must admit that is true Mr Roe.. maybe I heard it from someone else?
Check your phone. I think Dave from NJ is calling you.
Rossi never said the 20 reactors are in the US, just that he himself is (referring to the weather the OP commented on).
fair call.. just me going off half cocked!
I am just so impatient.. I feel like Ive been waiting for years!!
Trust me, I totally understand and know how you feel!
Same here, hang in there edog.
People seem to have no standard skeptic model. Consider this: In any topic, Initially assume ignorance, thus we are 1/2 skeptic and 1/2 interested. Sum of P=1. Add it up!
More information can reduce skepticism, increase interest. The ratio of interest to not interested depends upon how much time we have for this nonsense vs other nonsense of which we are also in some state of partial ignorance.
If one is a total skeptic Ps=1, one should have no interest Pi=0 and should not waste one’s time here.
Logically then, total skeptics should have no interest and should MYOB.
Nice to see GZ makes no attempt to avoid pattern detection. Aside from that your comment is specious.
Specious possibly, but the logic is irrefutable. There really is no logical reason for skeptics to post on these blogs. When challenged, fake skeptics usually claim either ‘amusement’ at the antics of ‘believers’, or concern about suckers (=believers) being ripped off by ‘scammers’. We even have someone feigning concern for the mental health of ‘believers’ in this thread! (Using very familiar language and style).
Of course their real agenda is simply to wreck blogs like this one, as happened at ecat news when the blog owner relaxed control. This ‘confession’ of an ex paid shill posted at several sites has the ring of truth about it: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread826545/pg1
Thanks for the link Peter. Logically totally dichotomous thought (i.e. total skepticism or true belief) becomes irrational. Freedom of knowledge, philosophy, and religion require propaganda corruption control.
All true. Optimistic commentators tend towards a fairly neutral ‘wait and see’ position but are forced to assume more extreme positions when endless contrived challenges are posed by ‘skeptics’. This blog is well policed by Frank so that this doesn’t happen, despite very frequent intrusions by various established shills hiding behind new IDs.
ECN is unfortunately a glaring example of what happens when moderation becomes too lax. What was once a useful functioning CF blog is now just a place for people who like a good fight. Any interesting posts by those who soldier on there are buried every time by 3 or 4 very noisy shills doing their thing without restriction.
This site is getting much busier now, as the ability to make fair comments without irrational denials and abuse become known,
Please Frank, do not let these very unpleasant people get a hold of your page.
Am I pleasant or unpleasant?
I have no problem leaving.
you said you were joining s
Please, readers, don’t use this site for personal insults or unfounded accusations.
I beg to differ sirs. Entertainment is as good a motivation as any. The comments can be interesting to read and if there is hard news from any of the players in LENR this site will undoubtedly post them.
BW
Off topic, but relevant to all internet users – yet another attempt to control the internet being brewed in secret. This time its the UN behind it: http://www.webpronews.com/the-u-n-s-war-on-the-internet-could-the-web-lose-2012-06
Peter, problem is everybody keeping up with so many things that need to be watched.
I am guessing there are quite a few people who follow Internet freedom and are fighting for openness.
It needs, the Internet, on many subjects, to become more organised so that we can all vote on subjects via the Internet.
Peter
The Countries likely to attempt this are of the nature that in their countries if they don’t like something they tend to nationalize it. Then Ask the previous Owners to please Vacate the premises.
As the U.N. is located in the U.S., Maybe the U.S. should take a page from their playbook.
Then shut off all funding. Last I knew the U.S. share was 25%.
Omega, agreed. If my cat gets a tapeworm, I get rid of the parasite rather than giving the cat extra food to compensate for the blood loss.
Prepare your google translators!
News on Athanor (L.Pirelli High School LENR project), several emails quoted:
http://22passi.blogspot.it/2012/06/aggiornamenti-su-athanor-e-una-proposta.html
Interview to Ugo Abundo by Greenstyle.it (in Italian):
http://www.greenstyle.it/athanor-la-fusione-fredda-open-source-intervista-a-ugo-abundo-10388.html
Thanks Ivan. Looks like Hugh Abundo is preparing a large presentation with mention of having built TWO Athanor reactors. And a plan to have a collective meeting July 2nd to review progress and exchange all the details for the global public to build and test their own LENR proof of effect.
With all this progress happening at once – it’s getting a bit dizzying. Little question LENR is now the world’s most innovative energy system. All others are being eclipsed by this small band of heretical physicists. Amazing!
And what about Defkalion?
They are hiring people for their new factories for making Hyperions reactors.
http://www.defkalion-energy.com/jobs
They have told many times that they are almost ready.
Hiring specialized personnel means that there is something solid and true…
I do not doubt that Defkalion can produce some small amount of excess heat, but we have no evidence that their technology can compete with the E-Cat. They have provided zero test results despite their repeated promises to do so over the last year or so. In fact, they said they would reveal test results not long ago, but they did not do so. Also, we are still waiting on the results of the certification testing by the Greek government we were promised last July! It seems like after all this time if they had a working technology that could produce significant gains of energy they would have shared some test results.
My guess is that they will make a big deal about the upcoming conference, despite lackluster test results.
Hank, I’m just curious, do you work for A. Rossi?
thanks Hank,DEFKALION seems to have robbed ROSSI of his work,but ROSSI did not give up on things and I hope ROSSI will be successful and I hope he picked the right partners.
Hi Hank,
Pretty tough on Defkalion. Your reports on Rossi however are very glowing. I would rank the probability of either of them having commercial LENR as equally unknown. Neither entity has yielded to the standard of independent testing.
BW
Last October A.Stirling was present at the testing of the Mega E-Cat at Bologna by the customers representative according to his request and with his testing instruments.
Let Defkalion do something like this.
We have to tolerate, that the devices are not perfect yet and still in reworking after tests.
Most important is that LENR works.
Casey,
Sterling Allan went to Defkalions facilities and made a report on his visit:
http://pesn.com/2012/02/13/9602039_Hope_from_Athens_found_in_Cold_Fusion/
Save me looking it up again, can anybody confirm that Defkalion are presenting in Korea in August.
It seems so yes- http://www.iccf17.org/program.php
Thanks Karl.
Could be very important. Hope.
I agree. Although if must say I admire Rossi in his market approach. I think is a good one based on current position of nuclear scientific priesthoods. I really hope he and a couple of other key figures certainly deserves at the end of the day.
Yes last thing we want is Rossi (if genuine) to be upstaged by Defkalion.
But confirmation of a commercial device from anywhere will be fantastic.
They will need to start mass producing Nobel Prizes.
Agree I can imagine at least three:
Pease
Chemical
Physics
And this confirmation my be way to new discoveries in LENR technology. Let look this way. To copy somebody’s design is easy.
But, if many researches look for solution independently the results might be wider.
From Rossi’s JNP
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=629&cpage=5#comment-262456
Franco ….. June 24th, 2012 at 2:46 PM
Dear Ing. Rossi,
when You planned to drive a turbine with high temperature steam that now E-Cat is producing?
###############
Andrea Rossi ….. June 24th, 2012 at 3:17 PM
Dear Franco:
After we will have finished the tests, that will be our next step.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Looks like Rossi will leave the boiler to others, but mate a turbine to the E-cat himself:
Dear Steven N. Karels:
We do not produce steam boilers, so this issue will be assessed by the boiler manufacturer. We will not manufacture or engineer heat exchangers of any kind. What we have to do is to obtain the primary walls at a temperature above the temperature demanded for the steam, with the due power. We do not put these reactor in series, since they reach singularly the demanded temperature.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Let’s not get hung up and think Rossi should be manufacturing boilers. He manufactures the E-cat, other companies make the boilers and heat exchangers. Pretty normal business ecology. For his tests, I would assume Rossi has to buy a third party boiler and turbine, and then will drive them with the E-cat.
Ged
I think Rossi would build 1 to produce Electricity just as a proof of concept.
Rossi has indicated several times that he will build the E-cats. Everything else will be up to others. After market.
On the large E-cats being made to specification of the customers it would only be logical to have them provide all addition equipment. It would be to cumbersome for just 1 Entity to do the rest as there would be to many variables to match. At least until there is a market that sets standards.
Het lijkt erop dat de e-cats in serie geschakeld zijn wat inhoud dat ze het reactie proces volledig kunnen beheersen, de limiet van de stoom temperatuur wordt dan begrensd door wat de gebruikte materialen kunnen verdragen.
Why does he tantalise us so?! Apprehensive to the extent of validation he is planning. Let’s hope he lets the ecat out of the bag and nobody can say a word to deny him.
Tried putting comment on Rossi’s page asking for picture of the 20 CAT’s to be put on his official website.
One can never tell when a post gets through but it disappeared.
Anybody else like to try.
Isn’t it strange that Rossi doesn’t like to back up his news with a photo?
Taking a picture of him surrounded by 20 working e-cats would be a simple one minute job, and make the story much more impressive.
From all the ones who post comments here, Hank Mills supposed to have the best connections to Rossi. Probably he would be the appropriate one to ask Rossi for that favor.
You guys should understand what Rossi already said many times. He don’t care if some body believe or not. He is working to bring the product to the market. At time of testing, there come many new issues to solve, to correct.
To post some picture on website it not any prove.
You have on the official e-cat site, the picture how generally will look container with the set of the small unit making 1MW reactor.
right on, Casey
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=629&cpage=5#comment-262456
Frank, Rossi is telling you that there isn’t anything dramatic
So,it seems that Rossi still has time left to follow closely what’s happening on e-cat blogs!
Not necessarily, Frank.
If you notice, Rossi gets ‘pingbacks’ from this blog onto his blog because I included a link to his site. They come automatically into his comment feeds like any other comment. I get pingbacks from other blogs quoting E-Cat World all the time.
Just one question.
What is COP? Still 6?
Without that information everything else is just noise.
(By the way, the edit feature is GREAT!)
Thanks for implementing the Edit feature! As an editor, I’m embarassed when I post stuff full of typos, and now I can fix them. But as for this latest news, I am even more elated. It is great to see a solid number (20 E-Cats) and real statements (“”20K hours of tests”) about the future. The next big thing is the UL certification.
Joe, How come you’re so positive on this site and so negative on energycatalyzer3.com Are there two of you or something? Barry Simon
Hi Jeff,
Get a life and don’t be the consumate Knocker,
these twenty are a new product ready for dry steam
I.E electricity generation.
Could it be that all the sceptics would have a different
coment if he were not Italian Frank
IF the reactors are running >600°C ( so you can make electricity )the COP is infinitely. Imho…
Electric heating elements in a furnace I once used to remelt glass operated at about 1400 C. That was COP=1. Useful for melting glass, but useless as a source of heat to make electric power. Temperature is important, but so is COP. If Rossi is still doing 6 average at 600 C, that is good news. (And if greater than 6 that would be GREAT!). But is he? There are a variety of reasons why I question LENR catalyst temperatures above 600 C for any extended time interval. Metal structure, unless alloyed to withstand temperature, undergoes lattice changes. Sintering, annealing, temperature embrittlement, atomic diffusion, grain enlargement… all sorts of metallurgy happens above 600 C. All the previous evidence points to LENR needing a stable metal lattice when using nickel. If Rossi is correct about the temperature he is getting, and keeping a COP of 6 or better, with nickel (and not some heat resistant nickel alloy)… that would be astounding. Actually that would surprise me more than LENR itself.
Agreed. If there’s 600+ degrees of heat around, these Rossi reactors CANNOT look like the old ones we saw in the shipping container. ie. wrapped up in Home Depot insulation. The only hope I have left is that Rossi has had, and used, considerable investment over the past 8 months or so.
My theory to make sense of these changes and what he’s said, and what he may have had to do, is this:
1) The E-cat reactor is now being used in solid state, rather than a container with water flowing through.
2) Heat management is no longer limited by water flow, but instead is being directly controlled by the rate of reaction–no more reactor instability due to insufficient exchange with water cooling.
3) As the entire reactor complex itself is now getting up to a uniform temperature, the reaction is now more efficient; needing less fuel material. Alternatively, the reaction is now slower and more uniform, allowing a constant temperature from reaction control, and thus burning fuel at a slower rate, needing less per 6 months re-fueling schedule.
4) Steam generation is by exchanging heat from the entire reactor to a separate source of flowing water, which can then directly be used to drive electrical generation, and no longer has to be recycled through the reactor for cooling.
5) The reactor is now much smaller due to no longer needing water, yielding the size shrinks Rossi has mentioned previously.
These are my best guesses to reconcile all the information. It all falls into place if the reactor is now solid state instead of water bathed.
A eutectic mix of salts or metals would make an excellent primary coolant for Rossi’s project.
That sounds sort of like the liquid fluorine, thorium reactor ideas. I like it.
Don’t worry about the metals for the ecat,if all else fails use Renium ,it can take the heat and oxidation unlike tungsten ,and is used already in steam reforming,where 1 barrel of crude oil and 4 barrels of steam turn into 5 barrels of gasoline,
Thermal output is as relevant as COP. The very small charge size that I think was mentioned somewhere might severely restrict output in the test prototypes.
To avoid hot spots he must be using a thin layer with good contact with the heat exchanger. Maybe an electroplated thin film of nickel with the proper catalytic surface deposited on the inside surface of the reactor?
Some kind of ‘dual deposition’ system on the inside of a s/s tube would seem to be a pretty good bet – maybe something similar to the SPAWAR experiments.
If using a tube, then a product with potential demand would be the tubes processed to have active catalyst inside, with hydrogen.
Designing them hermetically sealed, one could purchase number and length for whatever reactor power output desired. Perhaps immersed directly into the heat exchange fluid at atmospheric pressure, with a pump to circulate the fluid through a boiler for steam generation. I’m thinking a design like a conventional molten salt nuclear reactor, with the fuel rods immersed vertically into the reactor, only without the radiation and waste products from uranium fission. In fact, an E-Cat with a single tube immersed in fluid at atmospheric pressure, and the fluid circulated through pipes in a hot water heater, or an oven (600 C is HOT!) for the kitchen, or through pipes in the swimming pool, or distill water for drinking from sea water if living in a beach house or on a boat, or… (and this does not even get into electric power generation yet!).
Come one Rossi, why are you taking so long to bring on the future? How are you making the catalyst!!!!
I think 600C is within the limits of some alkylene glycol coolants. Liquid metals or salts I suspect may be beyond Rossi’s current capabilities. A solid hydrogen source would be included in the co-deposition layer.
Otherwise what you describe is pretty much what I had in mind.
Defkalion have workend on the subject and said that diathermic oils were not god above 350C (and had to be changed often at that temperature).
they started to use molten salts from 350C to theyr maximum of that time of 415C…
it seems they can go higher now, but no official data, and no idea of fluids used.
Alain, you are right – there aren’t any liquid coolants good for much over 350C, maybe 400 if pressurised. However, Rossi is claiming a 650C temperature at the walls of the reactor – with a reasonable rate of flow the temperature of the coolant would be considerably lower than that, so transformer oil, PAG or silicone oil may still be a possibilty I think.
Still COP 6 last I read on Rossi’s JNP
This is the reactor shielding from Rossis’ EPO (thanks Gary Wright) application. Can it handle 600c heat?:
8. An apparatus according to claim 8, characterized in that said metal tube (2) is a copper tube, said copper tube further including at least a heating electrical resistance, said tube being encompassed by a jacket (7) including either water and boron or only boron, said jacket (7) being encompassed by a further lead jacket (8) in turn optionally encompasses by a steel layer (9), said jackets (7, 8) being adapted to prevent radiations emitted from said copper tube (2) from exiting said copper tube (2), thereby also transforming said radiations into thermal energy.
9. An apparatus according to claim 8, characterized in that said apparatus comprises, encompassing said nickel powder, hydrogen and electric resistance (101) containing copper tube (100), a first steel-boron armored construction ( 102) encompassed by a second lead armored construction (103) for protecting said copper tube (100), a hydrogen bottle connection assembly (106) and a hydrogen bottle ( 107) , said apparatus further comprising, outside of said lead armored construction (103), a cooling water steel outer pipe assembly ( 105).
I believe these new reactors remove component 105, the water cooling assembly.
However, at 600 C the lead will have melted (mp: 327.5 C)if this reactor is solid state without a coolant buffer between the reaction core and the lead.
This would be a significant redesign, and require a better control of the reaction process. It would also mean gamma radiation is no longer being generated at detectible (above background) amounts; but instead the reaction is being more productive at turning that energy into heat.
All this is supposition and could be completely wrong, but makes sense of all available claims.
I am not certain what you mean by solid state, but suppose you mean it does not use a liquid fluid for heat extraction from the reactor? If not using a fluid of some kind (liquid, gas, whatever) then heat extraction would be by conduction only, instead of conduction, convection, and phase change. The reasons for using fluids is to increase heat transfer, because conduction alone would be a bottleneck. Solid state anything can have that problem if needing to keep it cool. These are reasons why heat exchangers are big business in industry. Thin large area surfaces with heat on one side, and a very short conduction path to the other side at a lower temperature (the heat sink), Then the heat sink needs to carry the heat away (that is why to use a fluid of some kind in industry).
I believe his original setup was a stainless steel core with copper tube around it encased in about .8 inch lead.
Water then flowed between the core & the copper tubing.
A higher temp system could replace the copper with stainless steel tubing over over the stainless steel core wrapped with lead.
Stainless steel can have a much high melting point then nickel depending on the allows.
More then high enough to not be a problem.
To me any news on the positive side is good news, it does not even have to be verifiable news. The mere fact that someone is looking toward the positive side of things is good. I have never been a skeptic of any technology. As humans (Well most of us anyway) we have yet to scratch the surface of knowledge. New elements, new processes, technology upgrades happen every day. Sure as I come out and say something can’t be done, it will happen tomorrow. Of course I am from the old school of thinking that taught me to respect a man’s ideas and pursuits until they proved harmful to man. Edison did not start off successfully and neither did Tesla but both men followed their ambitions to see success. Andrea Rossi is not different, he deserves the respect of a man in search of success. I for one think he may have started on the right road. I will continue to wish him well. After all if he does succeed, we all reap the benefits of his efforts.
Regards
ole Blake
That means if he sold one, he’d still have 19. Go figure.
With Siemens AG having bailed out of a major solar energy player – Archimede Solar Energy, makers of CSP technology – they have signaled a major market shift. And according to iltamtam.it Siemens is now courting new energy player Andrea Rossi and his e-cat.
We are already aware Siemens has been helping with 1MW controllers and turbine candidates – so, though unverified, it would make sense for the German manufacturing giant to take an early position in cold fusion commerce.
http://www.iltamtam.it/Generali/Economia-e-Lavoro/Ce-l-E-Cat-di-Rossi-dietro-il-divorzio-Angelantoni-Siemens.aspx
I am glad to see Siemens involved,they have a long history and maybe are a step ahead of GE,They have brought mayor advances in Industry,and have even worked with Viktor Schauberger way back in the 1930′s on implosion engines,the repulsine and repulsator,and designed a propulsion for Germany’s first self powered free energy Flying Saucer.
Siemens is a big industrial player and energy consultant,having already a big Industrial customer list ,can recommend LENR to their existing customers ,including doing the conversions to existing electrical power plants including fission,it’s just a matter of time.
Maybe it takes leadership from an Industrial player like Siemens ,to go to the next step , with already free energy,like solar, wind ,hydro power to move to the next step to include LENR and E-CAT’s to develop and perfect them ready for market.
According to ROSSI ,and his many High Temp 600C
E-cats are loging towards 20000 hours,it is a mayor accomplishment in the current R&D ,and it being clear,that some big players are involved backing this new technology,and because MR. ROSSI
is still free to speak,and has not been silent like others in the race.
I am and remain hopeful,that a domino effect will happen starting with Rossi and Company,backed with military protection ,to keep away the snakes and the puppets.
[...] the original article here: Rossi: Approx 20 Reactors Running Above 600C This entry was posted in E-cat News by Admin. Bookmark the permalink. [...]
The 1% believer in me says that I think that it will be months or maybe a year until we have independent proof that the e-cat is working.
The 99% skeptic in me is wondering how he’ll be able to explain his way out of this, or whether he’ll just disappear, or maybe it’s some elaborate psychology experiment on the subject of convincing people to believe in something that does not exist.
The psychologist in me keeps inquiring into the thoughts and motivations of the skeptics that continue to show up at sites such as this, that overwhelmingly support a discussion of the existence of LENR and the e-cat.
Because I find delusional ideas worrying. Some of the posts here are very paranoid, talking about Big Oil, conspiracy of silence, the Illuminati, New World Order, banks in cahoots with the government.
Take a look at the blog posts. What one word stands out amongst all others? The word “if”. Second paragraph, first word. Related to Rossi, most blog posts have that word.
John, Much better to follow proven Cold Fusion than “delusional” hot fusion or many other incompetent scientific denials and debunking.
On this page most people much prefer a rational approach than establishment lies and corruption, that is why you will find the word “if” rather than establishment rubbish of Cold Fusion cannot exist because Dogma says so.
I find most posts on this site to be rather rational. Of course there are big oil conspiracies, you don’t get that rich without conspiring. But none of that mumbo jumbo with banks, governments, assassinations and UFOs has touched cold fusion yet. The only thing halting anarchy in power is that Rossi is still perfecting either his product or his escape and that no-one has brought forth undeniable proof to the masses.
The reason the word if comes up often is because none of us can foresee anything.
Zed, these are pseudonyms and ID thieves for the deny, delay, defend op usually penned up at ecatnews. The more they show up here the greater confirmation they’re desperate and losing the battle
“Resistance is futile” dms
The style of a couple of recent new IDs posting here already looks very familiar from ECN. A few more similar posts and it may become fairly obvious who is behind them. I use the singular deliberately.
Peter, thanks for your reply, last page, so I am still here.
Ha.
John,the 99% is just your mind telling you,that you should not believe in LENR ,and that is based on the total sum of what you have seen heard and learned your entire life,suppose you knew the whole truth about every thing,or seen and felt the heat coming of the E-cat, it would twist your reality towards the truth,and then be in disbelieve ,why something this extraordinary could not have been accepted before,and you will be going through that phase and wonder about everything you have been told.
Not anymore. Nothing in physics truly prohibits LENR. Low temperature transmutations, in fact, prove it. There are now theoretical mechanisms as well, that fit just fine in our understanding of physics.
John, A healthy skepticism is a good thing, but 99 to 1 seems a bit imbalanced. Perhaps you were exaggerating to make a point. Peace, Barry
This is the same Rossi circus month after month. The statement “we will publish the report of the high temperature reactor validation” is Rossi perfection. He is going to publish his own validation I predict.
Let’s see, he is playing with the same forces used in a hyrdrogen bomb and he has no idea now it works, why it works, has no theoretical model, but is smart enough to know it will not blow up.
Let’s think about this for a minute. E/C2 = m meaning E is enormously large with a only a very small amount of m. Please ask or have Rossi tweet what state in the USA the 20 reactors are running so I can drive 300 miles away with my wife and kids!!! Thanks in advance.
The only safe place is Kansas. Move there.
test
John,ROSSI does not owe you anything,patience is a virtue,if you want more patience ,just put yourself in positions that requires much patience,that is how you grow and mature,including reading this bloc.
And that is your best argument against the potential of an out of control reaction.
Dave From NJ on June 22, 2012 at 7:11 pm
“Hot fusion is junk science.”
Yes, I posted that. But you miss my point. If cold fusion is real and using the same forces as a hydrogen bomb, then maybe we should understand with science before building a bunch of reactors.
How very interesting indeed. We do not live in dull times.
How does that Chinese curse go? Is it,”May you live in interesting times”?
[...] E-Cat World This entry was posted in About Cold Fusion, ColdFusion Updates and tagged andrea rossi, cold [...]
If Rossi was able to bring the ECAT from a temperature of just over 100C from the test data in October to 600C 8 months later, that would be a good accomplishment. As always I need independent proof. As for me, this will be my last visit to this website until the Ecat is either proved or disproved decisively. This website has ads, which might mean the owner is possibly making ad revenue from visits to this website. There also seems to be a pro Ecat bias to this website which makes detailed discussion difficult. For example, one points out contradictions in the unverified claims and users might use even more unverified claims to argue against the contradictions.
I’ve found an active website with no ads and a more balanced discussion that I will use for Ecat information. Bye.
What site is it I would like to use it also.
s, the only discussion on irrationally skeptical websites is abusing everybody and continual denial, denial, denial.
Good luck with that.
Bye.
much success to you s,bye
Is it vaporware or is he saying he’s producing steam? With Rossi one never knows for sure what he is saying.
I’m not surprised that there are multiple reactors running. I would imagine any long term test has multiple reactors in case there are problems (one way or another). It’s interesting that earlier he had implied that the earthquake set them back and now he’s saying at least some of these are in the USA. Again with Rossi one can never assume anything.
PS: Posts are now editable. Thanks Frank!
PPS: Is this the big news, Franco CH?
Pardon me. I meant Francesco CH.
Andrea Rossi
June 24th, 2012 at 8:02 PM
Dear Ecatworld.com:
Why dramatic? I just wrote about the work we are doing, there is nothing dramatic.
Thank you, anyway, for your attention,
Warm Regards,
A.R.
—————-
To the Admin:
you should inform Rossi that, while in Italian “drammatico” means “tragic”, in English “dramatic” has also the sense of “spectacular”.
Ooooops…
Forget about it!
You said on the previous post, it has something to do with ’1000′. Is this 1000 as in Celsius? That would be terrific and quite remarkable.
1000 hours. The run-time of each of the 20 units Rossi tells us are being tested, making a cumulative total of 20k hours of operation, as the lead article states.
Of course! Thanks.
I remember he said he’s running the reactors for 90 days for validation. That would be a little over 2 thousand hours. Only 10 of the reactors operating would be necessary over that period of time. Could be the batched are separated into two separate groups to increase strength of results.
Or the 90 day thing has changed.
Yes, ‘batching’ as you suggest seems likely. Rossi may be at pains this time around to make any press release as bombproof as possible. That would have to include some kind of independant observation of the tests by a 3rd party I would imagine. Possibly Siemens engineers? (i.e., these tests could be some kind of ‘sign off’ process before a formal relationship is announced.)
It’s steam-vapourware.
Just because he is running the device for 20 000 hours in self sustain mode does not prove anything and just because the steam is 600 degrees does not mean it is actually 600 degrees, it may only be 599 degrees. The whole thing is theoretically impossible. OK the Widom Larsen theory could explain this along with other similar theories, but that could all be made up.
Life as a beer mat skeptic is getting harder
Dear Beer Mat, please don’t fret – there is a wide open field called “hot fusion.” Fake skeps won’t touch it cause it is a real scam run by their buds – but honest skeps, possibly you, can have a field day. Hot fusion’s been sucking at the taxpayer teat for 61-odd years. How much have they swindled? Around $$250 BILLION (£160.4Bn) and they have delivered ZERO, ZED useful energy.
Good news is the biggest hot fusion boondoggle ITER is about to beg for $10B MORE (total now $16B) just to break ground. Oh, and ITER’s own scientists say it’ll prolly take another 100 years to deliver useful energy – if ever. So Beer Mat – you’ve got plenty to skepticize about. Have at it!
Dave From NJ on June 22, 2012 at 7:11 pm
“Hot fusion is junk science.”
Rossi should be very close to mating his new high temperature reactor design to a Siemans steam turbine electric generator plant. The importance of having a self contained, self sustaining, LENR powered steam Generator would be paramount. He may not have to wait for the tests to end before starting to make a prototype GenSet.
Rossi has talked about getting his e-cat running in 100% self sustaining mode some day, this will finally demonstrate the technological magnitude of his energy catalyzer. He must want to couple his e-cat with a Siemans Turbine (Or similar), as soon as possible, because it will be an important milestone for his credibility and viability of any future ventures.
Just to clarify, some refer to it as closed loop mode.
Previous thread contains links to Italian news item detailing Siemens AG bail out from Archimedes Condensed Solar. The item speculates Siemens new partner is Andrea Rossi.
Well it will be a tremendous leap forward if Rossi is able to claim the $1 mill prize from Dick Smith at last. Rossi’s glory would be supreme after all the lack of proofs and the ridicule he has endured in 2011/2012 & would back up his original claim that he created the 1st 20KW eCat in Oct 2007. That would be a great validation of everything (energy wise) he has claimed.
.
The publicity would be hard to ignore and everything Andrea could want plus, an accepted validation should force a change to the USPTO’s policies of rejecting unproven technologies in patents.
.
DSM
If Rossi can demonstrate 20,000 hours at say COP6, what do you reckon the chances are of Dick Smith actually coughing up?
If this means there will be devices available for or having already undergone successful validation by independent third parties, the clock is ticking toward one of the important moments in world histor.
It seems to me, one of the most effective ways to win this debate and defeat those who have, for wahatever reason, refused to give lenr the consideration it deserves, is for A. Rossi to find some some small island settlement somewhere dependent on oil for power and heat etc.for a free, 600 degree e-cat is to allow public scrutiny and any monitoring/testing Dr. Rossi might require.
Can’t he show us some photos, a webcam video…let one of his technicians be interviewed.
Why nothing at all except these pronouncements?
Will he get reported to the FRB again if he is now manufacturing in the USA? He told the FRB previously he wasn’t manufacturing there yet – but now he is.
Won’t they want to investigate again.
He is not producing. He is still testing.
Other thing. FRB was asking about domestic E-Cat.
But, he might prepare production lines. But until he get proper certifications the prepared factories don’t exist.
The industrial Mega E-Cats is different story. It fall under other rules.
Quickly, ship those 20 to 20 high profile donees who agree to use and publicize them.
It would be nice to know how many assistants Rossi has working on this. How many PHD’s , engineers, tech,s etc.
Remember that 6 months ago Rossi said he had passed control of Leonardo Corp over to a new organization.
He said he was no longer running the show (just the publicity).
If he has as he said, brought in an external organization, then they would be driving the development and Rossi would be left to manage JoNP. They would be driving the tech development.
But as always, the drip feed of tantalizing promises just keep flowing.
DSM
Seven assistants.