Rossi: 600C E-Cat Test Continues for Over 30 Days

On May 17th, in a post on his Journal of Nuclear Physics site Andrea Rossi answered a question regarding the the composition of transmutated particles in the 600C E-Cat reactor that is being tested. He said, “The 600 Celsius reactor is working since 20 days now. We are improving. We, obviously, will make a throughly analisys of the metals when we will turn it off.”

I followed up yesterday with a question about whether this test had concluded yet, and if so, how long it lasted. Rossi’ answer: “Still in course is the high temperature test. We have to make several thousands of hours of work.”

Today would then be the 38th day that this test has been underway — so far this would be about 900 hours of testing. If he is talking about several thousands of hours of testing, it would mean at a few more months would be required. If the long term goal is constant electricity generation from these high temperature E-Cats you would have to have extended periods of testing to see how the units hold up over time.

It’s not clear exactly what is going on in this test. When Rossi says things like, “we are improving”, or, “we are resolving problems”, it sounds like they are working on the refining the configuration as the test is underway. Hopefully we can get more information about this process.

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  • Martin

    After reading many of the comments I have to say that it is easy for people to criticize someone when they themselves have never invented or developed anything in their lives. Even if they had what are you trying to accomplish with your comments? Rossi is in the game, he has made mistakes, in developing a new technology but who hasn’t ?

    • Dave

      Martin well excuse us for actually caring about what’s true and what’s false. I have no stomach for a lying scammer.

  • Robert Mockan

    There is an add at the top of this column about a company using SonoTek Corp. brand sprayers to lay down catalytic “ink”. That is the inexpensive kind of layup of catalyst surfaces on metal sheets needed to make lots of nickel hydrogen LENR heaters. Once Rossi reveals his precise composition such sheets could be mass produced and then placed into a hydrogen filled container. I envision a small heater for backpackers that could be used to cook meals, distill water for drinking, heat an absorption ice maker, keep a tent warm at night (or your snowsuit cozy hiking cold mountaintops). Instead of those small camp stoves, one would carry a small (same size)cold fusion stove.

    Another billion dollar product.

    Come on Rossi, spill the beans! HOW are you making your catalyst???

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  • joe j

    How easily we all forget about home ecats, robotized factories and 1MW plants, always the shiny new thing to divert attention.

    • Pachu

      +1

  • PersonFromPorlock

    It occurrs to me that the actual content of all of Rossi’s announcements since last October is: ‘Further delay’.

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  • Lu

    Interesting comment that I just came across penned by Dennis Bushnell, Chief Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center:

    http://futureinnovation.larc.nasa.gov/view/articles/futurism/bushnell/low-energy-nuclear-reactions.html

    One comment from this article got my attention:

    “However, several labs have blown up studying LENR and windows have melted, indicating when the conditions are “right” prodigious amounts of energy can be produced and released.”

    Wow! Coming from NASA this is quite a statement.

    • GreenWin

      Yeah except the explosions that have occurred are all chemical – mostly H2 combustion in beakers. “Windows melting?” Dennis might have confused a Dali painting.

      • Lu

        I think I’ll take Bushnell’s word for it…

      • EnergyGuy

        Re”all chemical”?

        Yeahhhh????…..PROVE IT!!!!

  • Loop

    Is it to late now for Rossi, I’m not telling there is truth to Rossi story , but if his story is 20% truth maybe its too late:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Tf4gOS8aoFk
    This is cheaper, easier and there is extreme amount of it!

    • Filip

      It’s five years old. Where is it?

      • Omega Z

        Filip

        It was posted 5 years ago. The Video says it was discovered 4 years ago so it’s at least 9 years ago..

        • daniel maris

          I seem recall that one…basically there is no energy gain. Your pumping in energy to get about the same or maybe less out.

          • Barry

            Yeah, it seems like there’s never a COP around when you need one.

    • what if

      cheaper no, the energy input > energy output, is a net energy-sink
      you and physics are enemies

    • Omega Z

      @Loop

      This discovery is already 9 years old. Do you have one?

      Not calling it a scam. There May be many reasons there not available.

      Science produces research. It seldom produces products % wise.

      Thou many here hope Rossi produces a product, I’m pretty sure we’ll all except anything that improves our circumstances, regardless of who does it.

      Also the more the better. Competition is good & variety allows for options on which product works best for the requirements at hand.

      In the end, most of us don’t care who is first. We just want at least one to make it to market. Just get the Door open WIDE!!!

    • Daniel Steward

      This is exactly the same silly idea as putting a wind turbine on top of an electric car figuring that the energy you get from the wind turbine will power the car. No such animal as a perpetual motion machine.

      • daniel maris

        Not the same. The air turbulence around a car is waste energy that can be tapped, just as the energy in a bow wave from a boat can be trapped.

        • Rockyspoon

          You may “trap” it, but if there’s nothing you can do with it, what’s the use?

    • Steven

      This “burning salt water” technology is interesting. However, according to the wikipedia page below (about the inventor), the process takes more energy to create the radio waves used than the energy released in the “burning”. So it’s not like anything is gained in the end. You couldn’t simply put salt water in your car and run on it. There would have to be some other source of energy creating the radio waves in order to allow the water to be burned.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kanzius

  • Nixter

    Rossi himself says that Skepticism is healthy and a good thing, he expects to be considered a fraud until he can finalize and sell his reactors. All this talk about him being a fraud or a genius is a bit premature, he says he will have working hardware available to anyone who wishes to use it, test it, report on its efficacy in the future, at some point he will offer these for sale, and only then will we know what is going on.

  • s

    Where are the independently verified test results? Also, is the administrator of this website in a business deal/arrangement with Andrea Rossi where you are granted interviews as long as you don’t say or imply anything negative about the E-cat?

    • admin

      Hi, I can’t tell you anything about independently verified test results — but I can say that I have no arrangement or deal with Andrea Rossi to write or not write anything in return for interviews. I have asked him twice if I could interview him and he has agreed both times.

      It’s no secret that I am supportive of E-Cat technology — perhaps Rossi takes that into consideration when agreeing to interviews.

      • Barry

        You’re doing good work Frank.

      • what if

        thank you for the effort

      • GreenWin

        Ditto Barry, Frank. Thanks for the daily articles and stories.

      • Jay

        WTG Frank – we appreacite these daily Rossi updates. Thanks Again!

    • jacob

      s,why do you need to see independent test results,if you would look at all the available information about the E-cat and LENR technology and study and learn about it ,maybe you would see things different and change your opinion about it,based on your increased Knowledge.

      there is no need to point fingers at anybody,when LENR shows up on stores across the world it can benefit you too.

    • s

      Admin -thx for your reply. The reason why I will no longer believe the Ecat works until there is a product on the market I can buy or until an independent third party says it works is because too many of the claims concerning the Ecat are contradictory. Example:

      It seems to now be stated that the Ecat can only run for 2 hours in self sustain mode. However, each of the 2 runs during October seemed to need over 3 hours in self sustain mode to produce a COP of 6. How can anyone with a basic understanding of science overlook this contradiction?

      In my opinion, there has been no proof that the Ecat will produce a COP of >=6 for a 6 consecutive month period. Only claims that it will do so. As far as self sustain mode, keep in mind that the units in Japan that went offline after the quake seemed to produce excess heat for several months after the quake. So far, I haven’t seen any evidence that self sustain mode isn’t simply excess heat produced while the unit’s matrix destabilizes and decays past the point of usability. None of the tests showed two consecutive self sustain mode cycles.

  • Wes Moore

    Has anyone seen or experimented with the project offered by an Italian high school? I refer to an experiment led by a teacher that seemed successful and offered for free to experiment in the public domain.

    • http://none.com Charles Ponzi

      Good grief! The future of LENR depends on a high school experiment.

    • GreenWin

      Wes, the experiment was done as part of a science fair at Leonardo Pirelli High School in Rome called the Athanor Project. It has published as Open Source the parts and materials for anyone to repeat the experiment. The catalyst chemistry has been patented in the name of the High School and is open for students world wide to use.

    • Barry

      Hey Wes, It was kind of archetypal to see a picture of a young girl holding a Cold Fusion device representing a school that was willing to share their secrets of Alchemy with the world. The non-greedy team of Pirelli High are right up there on my list of Cold Fusion heroes. I wish I could speak Italian so I could tell them so.
      The name of their CF devise “the Athanor” is also the best by far.

  • morse

    Here in Europe on several scientific skeptic forums, Rossi and his e-cat are still considered as a scam. They refer to this website:
    http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2012/Proof-of-Rossis-Deception.shtml

    It seems that a working device is the only thing to convince these die hard bloggers.

    • Bruno

      I think requiring a credible test by an a competent and impartial third party of a working (doesn’t need to be commercial-ready) device is a VERY reasonable precondition for being convinced. There has been a lot of water under the bridge since January 2011 (even since October 2011) and skeptics like me are quite proper in our skepticism. A very legitimate argument can be made that after these many months WITHOUT verification, those who are not skeptical are letting what they WISH to be true to cloud their judgement regarding what really IS true. I can understand that, because I want LENR to be real and on the market. I’ll be one of the first guys to buy a home ECAT when/if they come out, but so far I’ve been disappointed every step of the way.

    • jacob

      maybe the Europeans are much more skeptical then the West,or just more brain washed by peers and puppets and snakes and in the box thinking.

      I of course could be wrong of course ,since I was born and educated there and I was convinced when I finished school ,I KNEW it all and trusted those in charge ,that we were taught everthing there is known
      to man.
      But I was fooled

    • GreenWin

      Thing is no one cares about convincing skeptos. They and their opinions carry ZERO weight. LENR has 22 years of hard data – and now a half dozen U.S. government agencies, four major universities (MIT incl) SRI, and a dozen commercial ventures.

      Skeptos are being re-directed to the hot fusion scam. Called a “fraud” by its own father Dr. Robert Bussard. REAL skeps will go down that road and put an end to the scam.

  • dfnj

    Another day, another week, another month…with no end in sight.

    I think Rossi should go public now rather than later. The sooner his method of energy production is independently verified the better. The world is facing major crisis with global warming, peak oil, and the global recession. Honestly, it is unconsciousable to keep nature’s gift to himself. What if Greece becomes a failed state, WWIII starts, and billions of people die.

    Rossi should have faith in the people of the World to reward him beyond his imagination. How much money does he want? By the time he can enjoy it he will be dead at the rate he is going. Every month is nothing but delay after delay. If his claims are true then everyday he delays independent verification could be considered as a “crime” against humanity.

    Meanwhile, the price of peak oil is shooting through the roof. I have this theory the big-oil execs are driving their prices up because they know cold fusion energy is just around the corner.

    • dragon

      I totally agree with your post. I said the same thing many times before but this message does not seem to go through Rossi. I am sorry for everybody that Rossi does not want to show his E-Cat to the world.

      • Ged

        He has his time table that was laid out months ago (this coming October). But it is hard to be patient.

    • Omega Z

      @dfnj

      Rossi trusted Defkalion. That didn’t turn out so well.

      He’s also trusted a few others which also didn’t fare very well.

    • what if

      defkalion promised july… so hang on tight :P

      but yes, you are politically correct

  • georgehants

    As time goes by the term, “Rossi Says” is either going to mean, you can rely on it happening, or it’s a dead duck.
    All positive thoughts for the former from me.

    • Antonella

      :)

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  • http://www.choicedowsing.com kwhilborn

    I think if he could go longer than 18 hours he would prove it. His longest demo was 18 hours before system failure.

    He could be posturing for legal reasons if someone else beats him to the punch.

    Despite his claims to have stopped demonstrating because of skeptics, we know he really stopped demonstrating because of stability problems.

    Rossi himself says he started demos too soon.

    He could not show a reliable product so he stopped showing. Now he claims (as he did before) that the duct is more stable?

    I think LENR will come from another direction. Brillouin maybe.

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      Maybe his limit is 18 hours in public testing because he cannot stay awake longer.

      If he would have severe stability problems, he would only pursue 1 MW devices, not home units, so I don’t really agree with your “we know” sentence.

      • http://www.choicedowsing.com kwhilborn

        We know Andrea Rossi has not delivered his plant because it had stability problems. It is still where it was built gathering dust. This is admitted fact.

        His 1MW device was only a group of home units bundled together. 52 units I think.

        If stability is a problem then it would make sense to repeat experimenting on the smallest scale possible until the bugs are worked out.

        Andrea Rossi did draw attention to this technology in my opinion and should get a school named after him, however he has also shown his early versions were flawed and if a court needs to decide who developed this technology like as with Tesla/Marconi developing the radio Andrea Rossi might end up on the losing Marconi side.

        The courts decided Tesla invented the radio, yet many still feel it was Marconi. It depends on how easily it is for Rossi to prove his claims.

        • jacob

          considering, Marconi worked for Tesla,did Marconi walk out of the door with Tesla’s invention ,Tesla is the one who used longitudinal waves or scalar waves,isn’t that what Marconi used? to transmit the signals

          • http://www.choicedowsing.com kwhilborn

            The point was Andrea Rossi has no legal claim to having invented something if his older patent applications were for an unstable product.

            History may repeat itself. Marconi actually studied at THE UNIVERSITY OF BOLOGNA under Professor Righi who had written a paper on wireless telegraph there.

            Tesla and Marconi were the best of friends until their deaths, although Marconis death is “mysterious”. He may have built a flying saucer and travelled to our future as some conspiracy theorists believe.

            Marconi was also a genius and his life story is as interesting as teslas.. Check it out on youtube.

  • Rodrigo Costa

    I still believe that Rossi have discover something real and new… but this long wait (almost 7 months for me) without public tests is making me nervous, and sometimes i caught my self wondering it this is real… i hope this wait dont much more long…

    • Alex

      I gave up trying to believe a while ago. I still have hope though, and play the game of blog fly to give myself something to do for 20 minutes a night. I say who cares if it’s real, this world has worse things going on, if it does turn out to be real then great. If not, well then, the ride was fun.

      • dragon

        Let’s not put all the eggs in one basket.
        Rossi is not the only one with LENR devices out there. There are many and they are ALL working towards commercial LENR.

  • Alex

    If he has to perform several thousands of hours worth of work. At a minimum of 3000 hours, it would be 125 days start to finish. My guess is, it will be close to 6000 hours. So, I wouldn’t expect this test to be completed until between September 2012, and January, 2013.

    • Alex

      If he is trying to prove 6 months of operation like he has stated his devices will work that is about 4400 hours.

    • Bruno

      He doesn’t have to demonstrate 6000 hrs, or even 3000 hrs to prove that he has something. He only has to prove that his device produces more thermal energy than the inputted electrical energy (adjusted for any stored energy (batteries, chemical oxidizer etc…)). My guess is that 2 or 3 days would suffice for this. That would validate the existence of a revolutionary process. Anything in excess of that 2-3 days (3000 hr, 6000 hr etc…) has bearing on the practical commercialization of the device, not on whether or not it’s for real. One is an earth shattering revolution and the other is product development.

      • Rockyspoon

        Rossi is after more than just “something”–besides, that “something” most likely wouldn’t further his efforts; it would just satisfy a few, then we’d all be after him asking for more “something”.

        Honestly, leave the guy alone. If he had bilked you of a wad of cash, you’d have a valid complaint, but he hasn’t and you haven’t.

        Let’s all be a bit more patient–how long did it take for the television to go from concept to commercial production (and that was without the blackballing MIT and the US government have hit CF with)? Again… patience; LENR is real; commercial applications are like childbirth–difficult but worth it.

      • Ben

        The problem with your statement has to do with entropy and forms of energy. Electricity is a much higher form of energy than thermal, so for his device to be worth anything, it would have to produce at least 3 times the amount of thermal energy just to equal what it would take in a generator to produce the same amount of input electricity.

  • Dave

    Yet another “Rossi Says.” Why doesn’t he allow an independent 3rd party to test the 600C E-Cat? All critical thinking people know the answer.

  • http://www.shake-speares-bible.com psi

    I concur with these largely positive evaluations of Rossi’s actions and character. Many of the criticisms of him have always struck me as perverse. Let’s see what he comes up with over the next few months.

    • John

      If the Rossi effect is real, I’d say a few years rather than months. If you want to test for stability, you’d want to test until the fuel ran out, which is about six months if I recall correctly. Then check that the hardware will handle repeated cycles. I’d say that four cycles will be enough. You don’t want angry customers coming back to Walmart or wherever one day after the warranty expires. That’s bad publicity.

    • John

      Sorry, wrong location to quote.

  • vbasic

    I hopes he still sells the original 1MW and have this as a third product. The 600C could be the E-Cat Lion, and the original could be the E-Cat Bobcat or Cougar and the home version could be the E-Cat house Tabby.

    • Alex

      He did say he will still sell both the 1MW, and when it gets the safety regs the home heat only unit as well. So this, electricity producing unit would be a third product, and there was mention of a 45MW electricity producing product for towns and cities as well. So far 4 different products seem to be in the works.

      • Jim

        I assumed he was going to incorporate this into the 1MW and better units, as the non-home units don’t need UL certification.

        I thought he said he was improving/tweaking these still, while still selling them.

        The home e-cats will be nice, although I have a forced air system unfortunately, so I’m not sure how well it will work for me. But I’m eager to have him sell thousands of the 1M and better units to businesses. That will have a couple of huge benefits.

        The grid won’t be so overloaded, since each business e-cat will decrease the demand on the grid, and businesses saving on large electric bills will mean their costs drop, which should eventually drive down prices.

        Also, with lower electrical demands, electricity prices may not rise as high as they did last year.

        • http://neotreksoftware.com Allan Shura

          The home e-cats do require U/L
          or certification by one of the other available accredited companies that do testing. This is about the same for toasters, egg beaters, blenders and lawn mowers.

          In my view this process is taking a longer time than anticipated
          but we have no details except that every thing was proceeding smoothly some time ago.

          The focus appears to have shifted to the industrial market in recent comments. This market is
          somewhat more interested in a possible 600C temperature as an added convenience for a large
          part of the existing infrastructure.

          Industrial boilers are certified by the government boiler inspectors in each jurisdiction.
          Usually they are concerned with a
          new or maintained boiler having the integrity to hold pressure
          and being competently installed before start up.

          Let’s hope he meets his original target of home units available in or by the autumn of 2012. Later the time line was hedged by a few months.

  • pipmon

    Sounds very much like a long term ‘reliability test’.
    In a former life I was involved in such tests for the commissioning of hydro-electric plants. Those reliability tests lasted for 1 year! The power generation could not go down completely at any time, individual components (an RTU or the Master Station) had slightly less stringent requirements (typically 8 hrs down in a year, excluding whatever maintenance period was specified)
    These tests are very much favoured by utilities and military. “Several thousands of hours” sounds very typical, and makes me believe that’s what they’re up to.
    It is to me a good sign.

    • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

      It seems probable that something related to this must be the news that was promised – perhaps the 800 hour mark or some other arbitrary figure. Maybe he’s just decided to wait for the 1,000 hour mark instead – a much more impressive number.

      This does sound like a full scale relability test as Pipmon says, so perhaps a sale or even a partnership could be riding on it.

    • Robert Mockan

      I too had a “former” life (early 1980s, last century)) as a quality assurance engineer at a manufacturing company making military hardware. I’d take prototypes to outside labs for testing in environmental chambers. Temperature, pressure, humidity, vacuum, vibration, power cycling.. a lot more stringent than the typical electronics burn in board. Those tests sometimes ran many weeks, depending on military specifications. What Rossi says he is doing is completely sensible.

      • GreenWin

        Aw, don’t say that Robert. You’ll spoil the sturm and drang opportunities for skeps.

        Years back I managed burn in and final test for consumer electronics – minimum 1k hours before FT. No milspecs.

  • Tom

    And he is doing this tests all in his flat in florida ? ;)

    • GreenWin

      Yes Tom. Same place he built the 1MW shipping container full of e-cats.

  • Tom

    From what I’ve seen, I like Rossi. The fact he is so enigmatic makes me like him more. I hope if Rossi can pull this off he receives as many apologies as he’s had accusations. He is truly benefiting humankind more than any politician ever could.

    I’m impressed by this claim. I was under the impression the 600 degree reaction could only last a few hours at most.

    • http://www.electric-sailing.fi Pekka Janhunen

      Rossi is 1) inventor, 2) Italian, 3) in situation where no one has been before. Those three explain a lot of his behaviour.

    • Robert Mockan

      Rossi knows given sufficient time and effort, he can change the world. One can only wonder how farther he could have progressed by now if so much of his invaluable time had not been taken by the legal entanglements his opponents had created for him last century, when they retroactively forced through legislation that the raw materials used in his waste to energy business were classifiable as hazardous. He has a better understanding than most about “snakes and puppets”.

      • http://www.health-answers.co.uk Peter Roe

        Yes he was stitched up a treat – I wonder who was behind the official persecution, and why? Everything about Rossi and his projects seems to be much more complicated than it appears. Maybe its just the Italian way of doing things!

        • Andrew Macleod

          I’m sure petroldragon got railroaded for many reasons. He was probally cutting into the profits of many “business men” in the waste management sector. Big oil and organized crime always have ties into politics.

      • Casey

        Rossi problems in Italy are nothing new. Even Vatican Banks work for mafia, washing dirty money for them.:))

      • GreenWin

        Methinks these comments dead on. AR’s intrusion into the waste management arena earned him a major attack. Now he intrudes on the oilcos and utility barons. Tribal protectionism at the expense of lives – driven by the primitive belief there is not enough. A bit discouraging for galactic anthropologists.

        But then, a great training ground for AR.

    • Len R

      you are impressed that he made up this number “600”. What if he made up a different number like “1005”

      • Tom

        I said I’m impressed by his claim, not that his word is the ultimate truth. The numbers mean nothing to me, the power is what Rossi can sell.